on this video I'm joined by a very special guest Jessica Meredith from differing Minds to talk about neurodiversity in the workplace and workplace inclusions for autistic people let's go [Music] welcome my friend thank you so much for watching I'm Orion Kelly that autistic guy I'm all about helping you raise your level of understanding acceptance and appreciation of the autistic community so if that sounds like something you're interested in please click the Subscribe button the most important thing though is by doing that you are joining this most amazing YouTube Community I'm super excited to welcome our guests for this video Jessica Meredith from differing Minds doing some incredible stuff in the workplace inclusion space but also in the neurodiversity space just some amazing work Jessica is the CEO of differing mines so we're very lucky to have a Jess welcome hi thanks for having me it's great to chat now what I wanted to do this chat for was I stumbled on you on LinkedIn as soon as I saw it I thought this is my this is my people this is my thing I love what you're doing with differing Minds so all right let's start at the start could you just like tell us a bit about you and about what you do at differing minds of course so I have been on quite the journey over the last five years I would say in the UK I grew up and live in Brighton which I don't know if you know much about it but it's a very diverse and inclusive place comparatively to a lot of other places so that was always quite normal to me and so then when I kind of got older and I started working I realized that it wasn't necessarily the same at work so I'd always done some work around inclusion really important to me but this was broad inclusion and mostly looked at things like gender because that was the Discrimination that I was facing and then five years ago I had my first child and she obviously is the most amazing thing in the world and turns out she's autistic so I have been on quite the personal journey to understand more about her and that led me to understand more about me um and I was diagnosed with ADHD this year I have done everything I possibly can to learn about neurodiversity and I have completely reframed my own thinking because I had all of the kind of stereotypes and negativity surrounding particularly autism that we grow up with and that we learn from the media and things like that so I decided I wanted to do something about it I also realized that in all of the inclusion work that I've been doing in organizations previously neurodiversity hadn't really been mentioned I'd never heard it talked about I mean disability was talked about a little bit but very little compared to gender and race and potentially lgbtq plus so I set up different Minds to start talking about it in organizations and to try and make organizations more neuro inclusive and just more aware of what a great thing neurodiversity can be I can't wait to talk more about differing minds but before we get there just I guess on a broader general question because I mentioned it before when we were just catching up that I was lucky enough to do it a chat an address whatever you want to call it for some governmental departments so thousands of government offices and public servants about neurodiversity and it was kind of like they knew one language and I knew the other but I was doing the talk in my language I guess my question is why are the benefits of neurodiversity so fanciful and so hard to sell to employers do you know what I mean it's absolutely mean because it's a to me it's it's just it doesn't need to be sold it's a win-win but why is it in this day and age still so hard to sell yeah I couldn't agree with you why it is utterly ridiculous and I think it's having gone from a place where I was totally ignorant about all of this stuff you know it's reasonably recent for me to a place where I am now I look back and I think over the years of me growing up and just kind of everything I was exposed to was a particular framing of not even eurodiversity at that time because I didn't know what that time was but let's talk about just in the context of autism it was a particular framing there was a particular kind of negativity that came with it there was certain kind of connotations and it that is all that you are exposed to when medical professionals talk about it what you see in the media and I think when that's all you have and if you don't have the personal connection to it as in you're not autistic yourself you don't have a close family member who's Autistic or a close friend that's all you see so it's very hot you're almost talking to people who have had actual lived experience or a personal connection versus people who have got the the view that has been created without that experience and they're they're really far apart and it is hard for people who don't have that personal connection because they don't know and so it is like talking to completely different languages and it for us on the other side we have a lot of work to do to get people over to where we are at because we're dealing with unconscious bias and just learning through years and years and years of being exposed to in my opinion the wrong framing yeah and I've got a question about that but I just this isn't a question it's more like just to get your your kind of response to that what you've just said as a result of that I guess pre-enlightenment do you think it's fair to say that what I tend to hear as an autistic person what we tend to hear is you know what there's thousands of neurotypical people out there that want your job why do I need to bother with all this extra fuss for you there are literally thousands of non-autistic people out there that would take your job tomorrow do you agree that is actually a day-to-day issue for people like me because do you know what I mean I'm just asking after a response I I absolutely know what you mean but I love the term pre-enlightenment by the way that's how I'm going to talk about the faces in my life from now on yeah I hear it all the time all the time because of what I do I don't hear it quite in that way because people tend to tone it down a little bit but that's essentially what they're saying what they're really saying is I am just going to prioritize something that is easier for me and the way that I know rather than actually challenge myself to think what is fair and you know we don't live in a fair Society one other thing actually we do we also work in schools so we have developed a primary school lesson all about neurodiversity so kids from the age of eight can learn that all of our brains are different that's a really good thing but the core part of the lesson talks about the difference between things being equal and things being fair and it's actually a lesson that is totally relevant to adults and organizations because people think that equal is fair and that's not true because we're all coming from a different perspective and when people say that exactly what you've just said to me I tell the story back to them but using a physical disability and they're suddenly like oh gosh well I would never do that I would never say to some a wheelchair user well why would I give the job to you where and that this means I'm going to have to get a ramp outside or make things so that you can actually go up the stairs or you know get a lift you wouldn't say that because it's really obvious to you that this person is equally valid as a human being equally qualified potentially could do a good better job but yet you can say that to an autistic person because you don't see what's inside their brain and so you're thinking that they're asking for something over and above whereas actually they're saying just put me in a world in an environment that works for me and I'm going to do as good a job if not better than the other people that you have in this candidate application process we're clearly on the same wavelength as I literally said the same story to the to the to the public service but what I did was I said look at it like this guys if I'm a person who uses a wheelchair it's just stock standard a given that there'll be a ramp in your workplace for me it would have been part of the architectural approval or it's just there okay well um look at it like this it's like you saying to the dude who uses the wheelchair congratulations you've got the job it's BYU ramp it's like hang on exactly what do you mean what do you mean I've got to bring my own ramp and I guess that's what I was trying to convey to them see but see as a as a person with a neurological developmental difference my ramps are up here I went on to discuss in fact they're probably much less expensive and and much easier to design than having to put them into your building and I think from your point of view I refer to them as mind ramps for my kind of way of talking to people you know where's one of my mind ramps how can you help me enable me but from your point of view neuro inclusion so let's talk about this neuro inclusion in the workplace how do you explain it just assume that you know people watching other people you you're presenting to how do you explain neuro inclusion in the workplace as like an umbrella term to employers we just say that it means that you are inclusive of every type of person when it comes to how they think you know their neurology and their perception of the world and the beauty of neuro inclusion is by doing some things that are actually free very easy simple things to do you'll actually have broader inclusion benefits because you know we know now based on what we've seen that changes that you can make to include autistic people people with ADHD people are dyslexic actually benefit everybody absolutely exactly and it's about creating an environment that is inclusive of everybody rather than making changes and putting people kind of in a separate box and one of the things that I sometimes talk about when I'm talking about neuro inclusion is autism at work programs so autism or art programs don't get me wrong have benefits for some people some people have had a great experience in them at differing Minds it's not something that we do it's not something that we advocate for because what I want to see is organizations become environments where everybody can Thrive and that you have neurodiverse teams it's not about creating specific areas of work or specific teams or specific parts of the building that autistic people can go and operate in it's about creating an environment where they're comfortable wherever they are and that's you know it's so important to not only here because it makes me it it comforts me obviously but it's so important for other people to hear because number one honestly most mind ramps most you know inclusions uh reasonable adjustments as you would put it for you know neurodivergent people uh they're bloody free and what I try to tell the government are not only are they free but in fact instead of things guess what they are they're people that's that's it it's instead of telling me to bring noise canceling headphones maybe just tell Jim on the on the dress on the on a desk across from me to catch up with me we'll have a chat he'll understand the way I interact this could be a little bit Gruff or matter of fact or black and white but why okay because my brain is actually bigger in The Logical side than the emotional side and I see things in right and wrong black and white ways and if Jim understands that Jim's not gonna offended anymore he'll probably find it really refreshing and maybe humorous like my wife and therefore me and Jim now are both enjoying work better he's looking forward to hanging out with me I'm looking forward to being there because he understands me and I won't get reported to HR for being me and you just want to see like this is humorous but but it's actually the legit thing it's free and I try to explain in my chats that what I really need are people adjustments not not light switches that I can turn down or the radio and the roof or whatever it is and I don't know why but those kind of standard practices as kind of neurotypical focused you know HR ideas and adjustments they actually make it even more difficult not only to get a job because you've got to go through the resume and the in the interviews and all those kind of things but to keep it and keeping it is so hard and I guess it's because we're reliant on knowledge and understanding of other employees but right so not me but but if if I'm Reliant if my keeping the job or even getting a job is reliant on knowledge and understanding of managers and employers and co-workers well how is that going to work if we just don't address it if we just don't go any further you know what I mean totally know what you mean and but why is an address though Jessica why isn't this not addressed we're getting that we are at the start of I think a big shift really at the start it's going to take a long long time and it pains me that we've taken such a long time to get here but just speaking again about my pre-enlightenment I wasn't advocating for this you know like and I was I claimed to be really inclusive I was a huge inclusion Advocate and I was you know like banging the drum in every organization I worked for as a side project I was always working on inclusion but I just wasn't looking at this and I think it's because you know there are some other areas of diversity that are just more visible they're obvious I'm openly a woman I was I'm a woman at work and so the Discrimination I face is kind of more obvious it's hard to disappear from that you know um you have people of color who they they can't you know disguise the fact that they are of color and so it's easier for people to win I mean still we're not getting that right let's just be clear but it's easier for people to engage with it because it's more obvious whereas when it's a you know something that is happening within within you and also typically those people because of the negativity don't want to often advocate for themselves they'd rather just keep it really quiet and just deal with what they're dealing with at work and burn out and then leave then they would actually say this is my situation please can we do something about it they also will have had negative experiences in the past they would have had people say things whether they are trying to be negative or just accidentally saying things like you know don't worry we're all a little bit autistic people just don't know so they will have had all these experiences so I think often people just haven't as a group the neurodivergent community haven't we are now I think or within this movement but historically we haven't been there and haven't been a I didn't even know you know when I set up differing Minds I thought I was a neurotypical person advocating for neurodivergent people turns out I'm at actually neurodivergent myself you know so we've got all of that going on as well so there's just such a change and I think it's that's why we haven't been able to get to this point yet and you know what I mentioned in other videos I've done on my Channel about there's there was a report tabled earlier in 2022 by the senate in Australia on the lives of autistic people and outcomes and look there's many there's many stats uh and the one I'll talk about that's relevant to us and there's so many other ones that are relevant like a 20-year life expectancy lesser than any other person it was eight times higher unemployment rate okay so autistic people are unemployed eight times more than any other person be that disabled or all you know or not disabled whatever however you want to put it it's not looking good for us it clearly comes down to an idea of feeling supported and feeling like you are enabled to thrive in the workplace and that not being something that I would be able to talk to you that I've experienced or that it's something I understand or as a given it's not something that's normal right but and your work is very much about helping with reasonable adjustments I know there was a document I saw that caught my eye you put up on LinkedIn a while back to like 20 reasonable adjustments and it was a great document but I'm you know we're not go and check it out on LinkedIn and on your website but from your point of view you know that you know this this is just a reality so as a starting point what are the kind of things that you are in general terms trying to address trying to achieve in workplaces you know with these types of of reasonable adjustments just in general terms one of the first things I always say to organizations that you want to do is start talking about neurodiversity you want to create an environment where people understand what it is that people feel safe to talk about it so that is often the feedback we get from organizations when we do talks oh it's great because you've now created a safe environment for people to start talking about this whenever they're ready so this isn't about encouraging disclosure this is about just encouraging an environment where people want to share they can and if you don't have people that come into your organization and talk about that you're not going to create an environment where people are happy to and that's particularly important I would say for autistic people because typically not always they are going to be less likely to want to be open about this type of stuff compared to other neurodivergent people but alongside that you can't just have some someone that comes in and does a talk then you've ticked that box we've opened up the conversation about neurodiversity and then that's it you need to have some things in place where people then if someone does share you need a manager to know what they can do you need a manager to know that they shouldn't say oh don't worry you're fine oh I would never have known you Autistic or you know some of those things that they can coming from a good place but are the wrong things to say they need some really simple steps that say you know open up the conversation in a positive way and say okay great let's have a chat about it what are your strengths what do you find more challenging make it strength space and I think just have facilitating that open conversation for me is like number one thing that you should do a lot of people want to start with the recruitment process and how can we better attract neurodivergent talent and that is absolutely important and ideally I would say do both look internally and look at your recruitment process but if you're going to do one my personal perspective is focus on the people that you've got in your organization first because you don't want to recruit more in your own urgent people into an organ that isn't going to support them when they're there and you will have people that are burning out that are not performing at their best that are you know just not thriving so you want to focus on that and to your point before we have obviously the same similar stats in the UK so the most recent one that was done a couple of years ago said that 1616 of autistic people were in full-time employment and that is staggeringly low I mean crazy you know we have to be realistic not all autistic people can be in full-time work want to be in full-time work but it's not 84 of them so we have such a long way to go and I have to try and balance there's a lot to do to make your organization you're inclusive there's kind of systemic change you want to do make sure your process is correct you want everybody to understand what neurodiversity is there's a kind of cultural aspect to it but at the same time there are some really simple things that you can do such as what you said and you know we've talked about throughout that that are free they're literally free just get people to understand about it as a basic step clearer communication your point about out you know direct communication I have a friend has a little girl who I think she's eight and she has an autistic boy in her class and she got really upset one day she came home and she said oh I asked can't remember what this little boy's name is if he liked my picture and he said no and she was mortified and then we were trying to explain but he wasn't being horrible you asked him a question and he gave you an honest answer so we could get him to change his method of communication and for him to understand that maybe it's a bit Kinder sometimes to either tell a white lie or to just position it slightly differently or you could know that you have to be ready for an honest answer if you're going to ask someone that question so there's probably work to do on both sides but what has happened in the past historically is that all the work has been done by the autistic people or haven't and so therefore then they're cast aside and as neurotypical people people just often haven't understood that they need to meet in the middle and if not meet further onto the autistic side of things as a dad being autistic myself and having an eight-year-old autistic son I I totally get that you know navigating how I can help my son and then sometimes I think you know what stuff them like not not this little girl but you know like for seriously we my son is eight he's been masking probably since he was five so here's a kid who's suppressing his true self from like four or five how do you think that's going to go for him in long-term life and mental health and now we're trying to get him to come up with ways of responding better when all he's doing in his mind he's being kind through being honest and answering a question I don't know why but my wife appreciates my fashion advice God Knows Why um at least she knows it's honest right I don't get the whole you know I don't get the whole she looks good in that if she doesn't no that doesn't flatter you this this works better kind of thing um and it's a real challenge but this is the last thing I want to talk about because it really is about reactions Impressions judgments acceptance you know these obstacles that are all born out of people and out of pre-enlightened people not bad people good people I don't know a thing about most other disabilities right we're no different we're just people we just want to have a good life there's nothing wrong with these people that we need to just need to Enlighten them if they'd like to be in HR policies and the idea of professionalism and and how we can address these in my opinion it might not be honest in my opinion I think there's a lot of work to be done with regards to for example if I said to an organization could I see your HR policy for neurodiversion employees or autistic employees they'd kind of laugh at me or think sorry is he is he making a joke is this humor this autistic humor he's been autistic again you know um you know it's like no it's a serious question and but don't you think it is actually a serious question but there's no they don't exist that's the answer and also they're written they're drafted by neurotypical people via neurotypical standards of how a neurotypical brain should work well well how can my son your daughter be how can we how can we do that because our brain doesn't allow it it's not possible it's like saying the standard is you have to walk into work but I'm in a wheelchair but the standard is you have to walk into work but I'm in a wheelchair it goes around in circles and might be granted that my theory Jess at the moment is a professional manner or professionalism is a fast it's a made-up phrase that doesn't exist you can't so what what's a professional matter well it's acting professional okay what's acting professional it's being in a professional manner how please react to that and tell me I'm crazy but in addition to that how do we make ground in in this which is really really People based HR is people-based do you know what I mean this hot idea of a professional manner in the workplace because you tell me an autistic person that hasn't been fired because of HR strikes that were pure legalized discrimination and I'll say you're you're lying it just you know what do you think how can we go forward here I know I mean I I totally agree the whole kind of concept just doesn't make any sense to me me I find it you know it's interesting slight side note when I was having my ADHD assessment the psychiatrist who was doing it at the end said do what you will with this information but you actually score very highly on um kind of autism traits too so he recommended an Autism assessment I'm kind of sitting on that at the moment but you know don't know what to do with it but I think there are certain aspects of my personality or not personality the way I'm wired but think quite literally and in a kind of direct way so a lot of what you say I really resonate with and I struggle to know kind of where I'm at in terms of side of the fence for want a better phrase but within this when you're talking about professionalism I've always had this issue that I just don't understand what people really mean because really when we're at work we should just be doing a really good job and if we're doing a really good job I'm just not really sure unless we're going around you know kind of completely offending absolutely everybody we talk to because we're being we are being rude because you know autistic people are literally people neurodivergent people can be rude too we're not Saints but I think it's understanding what's actually coming from a bad place and intentionally harmful versus just a different method of communication and so when you think about professionalism I just don't I've always had it about in terms of things to wear I've never really kind of gone down the corporate route in terms of work where things like that because it's meaningless to how I do my job and so that's the same as how we've just kind of made up professionalism you know professional to me like I said it's just doing a good job at peace with everybody and being happy in yourself at work I don't think we should ever force people to work in a particular way and to a particular standard which isn't impacting on how they're doing their job yeah and don't you think if we say the values of respect being respectful and kindness are more important than professionalism and you and I are honest and upfront with someone who we really like but it might not be something they want to hear because we're being kind and trying to help them don't you think we're being professional rather than I'm going to HR and dubbing on you because you offended me and I think this is my son you me honesty is kindness It's it's just the brain it's The Logical brain and the tiny little emotional side I'm if I don't like you yeah you ain't getting honesty you don't get nothing if you're getting energy from me I like you do you know what I mean so exactly I mean people yeah people should appreciate it I think that is so true because it's actually much easier for some people neurotypical people to not give a candid response and not you know face into for them would be a difficult conversation but that doesn't get you anywhere like you have to have honest conversations and you have to know where you stand I mean this is this goes Way Beyond work exactly like you said if you have a if you like someone if you have a good relationship with someone then that's how you would be and actually if you're going to be it's not dishonest but just not really being overtly honest that probably means you haven't got time for that person and you just don't really want to even engage with it so actually it's a good thing and I think we don't want to go around offending people but at the same time you can't operate in a work environment and have a good working relationship with someone if you're not going to be direct and it's something that we talk about a lot at board level for example imagine the efficiencies that you could achieve on a board if you just got to the point people were honest about how they're feeling and you didn't feel like you had to take into account kind of lots of all of this other you know dynamic tension and you know all of this neurotypical stuff that a lot of us just don't understand political factions and I think board level we're finishing now we've got to go to board levels of is a phenomenal topic to talk about another time autistic people neurodiverged people on board levels but also I'd love to talk to boards I'd rather talk to boards than talk to 3 000 staff because I think I could do more damage in a good way do you see what I'm saying and the the last thing the last thing I would just want to throw out there from what you just said it just triggered me do you think it was it was me or do you think it was neurotypical people that invented the phrase honesty is the best policy because last time I checked they actually don't believe that it's like a second you made the policy and I've done it and now I'm fired so who's possible I mean that is literally the problem isn't it that is lit people don't think about what they actually mean they think people don't want it exactly exactly only make the rules if you want people to follow them uh amazing work at differing mines and um great to talk to you Jess hopefully we do it again soon thank you so much for your time oh of differing Minds Jessica Meredith thanks again Jess I appreciate your time watching this video now if it's resonated with you then you should share it with your family and friends so we can hopefully reach more people I really do appreciate your support until my next video thank you for watching and we'll talk soon