it's just the classic case of flub you don't tell me where I'm going my name is John Doran and I write about music in this series of British masters for noisy I've been speaking to such outliers in the field of popular music as Noel Gallagher with Albertine and John Cale today I'm speaking to one of the biggest and arguably most misunderstood rock stars the last quarter of a century Richard Ashcroft his band The Verve were one of the most unlikely success stories of the 1990s predicted by no one by him nearly 20 years after the phenomenal success of urban hymns Ashcroft has become ambiguous about Fame but as this rare interview proves he is more to say than ever pirated rightly so why after six years was it time for you to come back with a new solo album these people it was time because the album was finished but also I think hunger you cannot cheat people you can't cheat yourself on stage or you can't in the studio when you're writing and until you have that hunger and that desire or a clarity potentially away you sit amongst all this as the world's changing so rapidly I think I've got a lot clearer review of what I should be doing and why I should be doing it who are these people there's a good question in a way it's a sort of easy get out sometimes it can be a derogatory way sometimes it can be a lazy way of just bracketing a bunch of people but these people again it's kind of in the theme of the division at the moment and divide and conquer and unfortunately we're in them probably the most divided and divisive time in history also do you know the erosion of freedom of speech the erosion of the arts the silencing of people so it working on a few different levels really to them I think it's important it's the same with bittersweet like I say first line you're a slave to money then you die no one would say that that would be a popular song no one's if you just looked at the lyrics the bitter sweet symphony' they say well that's the most depressing pile of I've ever read in my life it's never going to be a hit now I'm from some powers yeah I'm definitely definitely not interested in kind of slag enough anywhere in the northwest yeah because there's a lot of people doing that already but it has to be said that when you talk about places like Warrington we're going some islands they are to a certain degree tough places they can be quite violent not maybe not always that open-minded about people who have artistic ambitions what I'm really curious about is did you become an artist because of or in spite of coming from Wigan I think the odds I fed off that actually so we vibe in system you know if I had family ties in Notting Hill I got into the equivalent of the Brit school or my dad was an actor in whatever and he knew such-and-such you know that's a different way of doing it and I respect everyone's Road to whatever kind of success whatever that may be but I think the hunger comes from the odds being stacked against you and also people limit in you it's just the classic case of flub you don't tell me where I'm going I can't imagine how kind of upsetting it must have been losing your dad suddenly at the age of eleven but to what extent was that like the prime catalyst for you becoming an artist I'm not no it was a prime catalyst but I do feel like one man's lost energy seems to be you seem to gain it or something so like I've got the strength of two men in my will and the primary number one thing that happens is that any sense of a bubble any sense of American dream whatever is gone early in a very brutal fashion I've got a set up speakings our dad myself I don't agree with this but there's a famous quote by the writer Kingsley Amos on asleep ramming the hallway exactly yeah so coming for people who don't know this he said that you know the enemy of our is the pram in the hallway so what this made me think was like how do you and how have you to go the enemy of our is any kind of preconceived idea there you go Kingsley any preconceived idea any notion that joining the biggest universal club on the planet and I've an empathy for every single parent in the world somehow can taint or numb or nullify you as a creative person is insane but ultimately what happened to me was is because I had my first child at CERN Ange most of the journalists who were writing at the time they weren't ready for it so now now they're all happy the 40-some that they've planned their families at the right time in their nice little middle-class way there now it's all cool being a dad oh that's fact that's fashionable now isn't it it's also very it's very fashionable to be a dad now but when I was a dad there comes they couldn't stop asking me about it I'm like am I the only musician ever to have a child they want the cliche and this is what it's about we don't need to perform for other people's ideas if you write in a song in your bedroom right now that's strong and you've got your own identity there's no reason for anybody to put anything in your mouth to shape you to dress you you just need helping other things you know potentially on the money side I'm doing the deals for you or whatever what creativity you don't need that I probably heard that Kingsley a misquote 15 years ago but it's nice to put it to bed because we everyone out is we shouldn't live on these old people's from a different time different generation different class talking about a different intellectual group of writers who are they don't mean nothing to me you're John Lydon mean something to me Sex Pistols means some it to be not mean I think actually if you've read any of his later books probably the enemy of Arthur Kingsley Amis was drinking two bottles a sculpture died you know rather than this I'm saying so you're looking for you you're looking for your enemy my potentially your muses died it's not the two bottles of bells it's the pram in Nepal oh yeah yeah hi there that's the reason yeah that's why I don't write like you used to and do you miss anything about I'm obviously obviously you know you've got nothing nothing no what what about do you ever find yourself in a chippy down there asking for P where oh sorry I thought you meant about the band for even asking I don't know course I do yeah I do oh man I've been on searches around London for great you know gravy making chips shops for years the cool thing is and anyone will remember back in the day if you didn't have enough you could get half of everything yeah so you could get chips half gravy and pee wet whoo and pee wets just that lovely little sprinkle of juice they didn't cost you anything yeah and then the great thing for our health that we did is because we saw the salt and vinegar as a freebie as well why not yeah why not why not cake the top of the scholar with three inches of salt it's free absolutely thank you very much thanks for that I do miss the loves in the shop that contact because my mum being a hairdresser and stuff I was always as a kid in the shop amongst people you know so even back when um when Stanley Sixth Form College playing you know as the butterfly effect or rain garden just to a handful of like teenage mates and you were still as I've heard people that I know who send you back in the day that you were going for it like you were really pop at Madison Square Garden even then as a teenager and I'm just wondering were this self-possession came from even at such a tender age the hardest gigs in the world for anyone who's starting now obviously then ones in front of your peers your mates the worst the worst state is in your college wherever you are in your town that's going to be an hour gig so I decided from day one that will confront that head-on instead of being a lamb to the slaughter you're the lambs and what I'm going to slaughter you yeah yeah so even now when I go on stage it's more like a boxing it's more like a fight for me than it is like hey is a cakewalk and we're all going to have a great time together it's not like that for me it's physically and mentally a challenge you know I've got so I love the Greek prog rock band aphrodite's child that featured Dennis resource and Vangelis and I believe you and the rest of the verbal fans of this band as well absolutely a huge song seminal song in our history the beautiful thing about the Four Horsemen it's so unusual that it isn't standard prog sometimes a lot of that prog stuff for me personally just over egged it you know unless you're Hendrix don't bother for me on the guitar I'd recommend everyone download that tune and then get in the car you can drive clear space of Road three in the morning and put that out wrong it's just incredibly in the 90s you were quite open about a subject that was kind of unusual at the time in that you talk about your own kind of mental health and it was it was kind of quite rare in kind of rockstars I think I was called actually no I was called man rich and before I talked about anything remember well that's that's another thing you know would they be doing that now wait this is what I wanted to ask you about like it's like it would never happen now what it would have seen is like wrong nowadays you'll get people like banger and years and years and lots of different people will say lot of time bad problems with depression and stuff like that I know you weren't a big fan of Prozac I'm just wondering how you've coped with this over the years and what methods you've used for dealing with it well I think you know I'm just like anyone else I think I just used to get periods where my capacity to store or take in all of what was going on it just became you know almost like a sponge became too full it's become very complex now and I think that a lot of natural feelings can can have a condition and a pill for them in 10 minutes of you're letting getting let them do that how about we work our way through it through starting off like all the different plays ins that I got addicted to whether it be nicotine and everything else all the other issues in your life I reckon you start working on them before you put anything else back into your system well obviously there's some people are in such a low state that potentially for them maybe that is the only option but to give that as the only option and sort of be the peddler for Big Pharma that's not my role quite famously Knoll Gallagher you know dedicated casts no shadow to you and like both him and Liam have been kind of vocal supporters of yours like ever since really and as you obviously know you know like no publicly said that I'd love to do an album with you recently what you reckon the pros and cons to being in a band with no would be and the pros are he's an amazing songwriter so if I get 50% on the publishing then obviously it stitching for both of us in it and I'm an amazing there assist and I've got incredible melodies so Z so the combo is great but there's also a lot pros work in Liam but there's a lot of negatives working with Abram and not working the other one right like being a brother in the middle right so it's a real nice compliment for me and all but I love Liam as well so I'm not going to wear you know I would love to do a musical with them both I'd like to do a musical of our songs combined and a story of both I use and the combination at the end and the fact that we are we have crossed paths being mates looks after each other dissed and the other it would play you that well they'd have to be someone who could do the whole thing from 20 to now and that have to be me them on it so I don't know on the night where you won the Brit but you you know you didn't attend because the verbal playing at Brixton Academy I've seen some footage of it I said believe that George best came down to Brixton Academy did you meet him that night yes I did yeah where we asked for him to be the person who gave us the world well I did that cuz I'm United fun yeah because obviously he was a hair of yours when you were growing up what was it like hanging out with him it was very brief and only recently I am assured my son's a documentary and George few weeks ago funny enough and that was really moving actually to think back at how quickly and rush the whole night was we gave 500,000 from bittersweet to harmless Jerry and George best gave us the award all in one day the winner of best group I was 30 years younger I could sing like Richard Ashcroft this guy's special undestroyed it's like crud just crazy how big urban hymns go I believe that as of 2015 urban hymns is like the 17th biggest album of all time I'm selling in the UK and was there an extent to where it became too big what did it become like like an albatross for the band really I just don't think we ever went on long enough in that period to say it went too big I think if we were different people oh there was a different combination could still be happening now the problem is when you've been up for two days or in the back of a transit you go on to South Hampton join is you've got to do a two-hour show your knees are feeling like you're 80 and you've got a fright it's good you've been going down on the last three days in your lovely shows and you're thinking that this is admin the biggest thing for me was obviously that everyone knows I was writing it pointing it out was my first solo album and that's the biggest albatross for me is that people believe that it took the over free specifically Nick to make urban image if that was the impression you couldn't be further from the truth apart from obviously rolling people come on neon wilderness every other song on that record is just stone cold written by me I think I've got time to ask you one more question and it's a big one oh yeah if the time was right and the money was right and everyone was up for it would you say they're getting the butterfly effect yeah that's a good one well I think one member was a drum machine so he's going to be easy yeah he's cool he was always one of the best guys I ever got on with actually though lovely lad he was rolling to think his name was Oh No yeah funny man I don't know I think the problem is is you know I look back before and I gave it a good crack and I think the future for me now is on my own but not the future is not just me totally on my own it it door will involve collaborating it will involve bringing different types of music in some I think hopefully if I can find the right people and it's about enjoying it right I'm off was it plays right nice one