Transcript for:
Winning the Private Equity Game Webinar

this is Gerald OWI managing director of black for partners this is our webinar called winning the private Equity game an introduction to private equity and how to succeed um please note the following there are well over 100 slides to this presentation I'm not going to go through all of them some of the topics I will be doing lightly others more in depth what I suggest best that you do is you uh send me an email after the webinar and I'll you'll see my I will give you my email the email address at the end um and uh request the slid set lot of great detail to this so once again my name is Gerald adwi I'm the managing director for Blackmore partners and um please note that this uh slide or this agenda here has um well over uh a dozen different topics I will cover all of these as I said some in detail and uh some um more in detail what I want to do is first start off with I get asked with how did Blackmore get started well first of all Blackmore was founded in 2006 and we put together over 100 plus private Equity deals once again this I call this webinar winning the private Equity game to succeed in private Equity so if you want to get board position positions Consulting um uh get uh run a portfolio company what do you need to know well I think what you need to know is how private Equity thinks what they value how to get their attention and I'm going to do that just that what I'm going to do right now and by the way the slides are not going to change for the next uh uh 10 minutes why I tell you about how black more was founded the founding of Blackmore because we were founded by a private Equity Firm called La capital is going to give you the unique Insight through the story of how private Equity thinks and what they value okay so once again I will be not the slid set are is not going to move right now uh for the next 10 minutes black Moore as I said earlier was actually was founded by accident we were founded by Tom Turpin of Val capital and how it happened is in 2005 I used to be in the Consulting business and I worked for a company called the fusion group our company our clientele was the fortune 2000 and uh and 90 that was 98% of the business uh BP uh Chevrons and a lot of smaller companies and 2% was Private Equity I always told all our clientele which were typically the senior level management are sponsors for a Consulting ments if you're ever thinking of leaving call me email me get a hold of me I will help connect you to my vast network of other Executives in 2005 what happened is I had six of those Executives in a very short period of time in in a two-e period all send me emails and they didn't want to go into Corporate America they wanted to get into private equity and their emails were all had a very similar theme one uh they have friends in private equity and they're all getting rich and they they heard that private Equity is Raising trillions of dollars buying up everything they get their hand on and they want to uh get in that game and the reason they said is uh why the money was good in Corporate America and they get great bonuses it's really not lifechanging and uh they made a lot of money for other people and now what they want to do is get ownership in a company via private equity and uh use that uh ownership to have a wealth create a very big wealth creating event so six of these Executives in the summer of 205 contacted me all asking to be introduced at that time I knew 200 250 priv firms today it's over 8,000 worldwide so um what was interesting though I was a little hesitant at first to introduce them to private equity and the reason is on the corporate side Executives were often asking me my corporate clients if I knew other great sexs they're always looking for good talent as they were expanding on the private Equity world when I would talk to them they never would mention Executives they always would ask me Gerald do you know of a company we can buy uh we'll pay you fees if you can bring us a deal out of a corporate car ride or something like that and uh no Corporation had ever confided that they were looking to sell who do I no wants to buy them I just didn't have happen is what I would say so I was a little hesitant so I went to a friend of mine I said look look I have these six gr Executives they want to get in private Equity but I don't know if I should go and uh send out their resumes here what do you think and my friend says chald private Equity is buying up everything they can hand get their hands on um they've raised trillions of dollars so once again I heard that same thing and he said something different though you can get paid a finders fee I go what do you mean to paid a finder fee I've never ever charged for executive he says well private Equity will pay 30% 30% of what 30% of their whole package he said and so I uh h i I wondered what that was look like so I looked up each of these Executives who since they were public companies their salaries were on business week and I quickly astain if I if all these Executives uh if I got finer fees for all I'd be getting millions of dollars so I did that I decided to package up those resumes send them out to my 250 best friends in private equity and I got a total of six whole responses five said I don't have time for this one said Gerald these are great Executives this is Tom tpet La capital and uh these are great Executives I want to meet them set up a call and by the way you know I you there's a problem that I know you're uniquely able could solve that if you can solve it's a new line of business uh you can make a lot of money and these six exacts are going to get rich well that got my attention fast forward one month later Tom and I are on the phone again AL Capital $4 billion company 25 staff members Tom opens up the call and says thank you Gerald thanks for introducing these are great Executives I'm looking forward to talking to them but before we talk about them I need to talk to you about how private Equity works and um uh this problem I have and this problem is I don't need executives I said this is weird is this a joke uh you don't need Executives I've just then brought you six problems he says yes that you're correct it is a this is a mixed message here executives are a problem but I think it's going to be an opportunity for both you and me given what your company does I said well okay I'll tell me more he says Jo the reason why I say I don't need Executives is here and and P says don't dare repeat this Executives cuz I'm going to tonight cuz I'm going to tell them to work with you and I'll get to what they're going to work to you in just a moment he says private Equity every private Equity Firm when we do a deal typically we're on a short time frame we need what we know is the best talent and what we all have is a virtual Rolodex of goto Executives you for everything you can imagine and if I don't have that typically uh one of my fellow Partners will know someone so we interchangeably here at the The Firm share our resources I have go to inter room CFOs inter room CEOs Coos I have sales guys I go to I have guys that just view deals and give me feedback that know a specific industry and focus I have go I have assembled guys who I have vetted over the years gotten known or they've been referred to us as you know top drawer and you know by maybe one of our internal CEOs right referring another CEO uh to work on any kind of project or uh maybe we give them the CEO position or inter room CEO position but the point is every private Equity already has this why do we have this is because we were risk adverse new guys great you have great guys but I got to tell you I don't know I haven't seen what they do they could tell me they're doing something but until I did a big background check and went through all that uh all that work which I'm not going to do cuz I don't have the time um which I'll explain why I don't have the time or does any private Equity Firm have uh we're just not going to do that so we all we don't need Executives Gerald that is my message to you but you know there's a perception out there that we do leading to the problem here's my problem jald I get over 2500 Executives every month calling our firm and not every month a year and this is the average for the industry by the way maybe we get more I'm not sure he says but I get 2500 a month and I just don't have time for it I said then Tom why do you have time for me today because I said he says you're going to S I think you're going to create a product and service and you're going to deal with these 2500 Executives and you're going to we're going to pay you to do it so let me tell you why this you know where this perception there's a gap that exists and I'm going to help you see the the Gap once you see the Gap um you and I are going to work very closely together on this new product and service so we have 2500 emails faxes phone calls all calling me up now that's not my business see Gerald what do you know about private Equity I said well literally do I know anything about you guys well uh other than I do projects for private private Equity but it's it's at a portfolio company obviously I don't work inside a private Equity Firm so I really don't know but what I do know what i is what I've heard and I've heard the same thing you know from the six exacts we all believe that private Equity has raised trillions of dollars and it's out buying anything that's get its hand he goes really okay and that is a perception but there's some gaps there he says I I said well tell me more about it he says well private Equity does needs to do two things very well number one we've got to raise a lot of money okay and collectively maybe there is a trillion but we got to raise a lot of money and then we've got to put it to work as a fast and efficiently as possible now I have 4 billion 25 staff members to put that money to work how many deals do you think I'm doing a year not private Equity overall just us what do you think I said probably well over 100 he says nowhere close I said 200 he goes way at the other end I said 50 he goes still nowhere close yeah private Equity Firm he says does 0 to two deals a year Z to two I said 0 to two that's wow you're going to that's going to take you forever to put to work I he goes I don't have forever I have a maximum 10 years I said well that's a lot of time actually goes no I want to put this you know if I could put it all to work and diversify it over a large number of companies right today might magically boy that'd be great but it doesn't happen that way he goes do you know our closeth do you have any idea what our close ratio is in the industry I said I have no idea I'm guessing we not you know Corporate America you you a good sales guy does want on a t he says well we're terrible sales poo because we do pro typically 300 to 500 uh looking 3 to 500 opportunities for every deal we close I said that sounds like a process problem more a sales problem maybe I can help you with it well he says we're not going to talk about that right now because what we're here to do talk about a uh just I'm giving an overall scope but I can tell you that isn't the issue we're all picky each private Equity Firm has a unique uh criteria of what they look for and I won't go into that because the very is just so many and there's about 1,800 private Equity firms in the US and all with their own unique criteria so but they're only doing Z to two deals a year and they're looking at 3 to 500 so for us we're doing typically consistent three Deals every year so that means I'm typically set my sights on I need to see or my team it's a com it's a team sport 1,500 deals I said that's a lot that is a lot of work a lot of hours he says you tell me he says some deals might I might look it up for 10 minutes and and and have a quick call and that is and others it could be weeks days and hours so so the the the time variance is Big we have a low close ratio I don't have a lot of staff and here I have 2500 people every year wanting my time and attention and they don't have deals 99% of them just want jobs I said okay I think I'm now getting it I think what I'm you what what I'm hearing Tom is you want you don't need Executives you need Executives with deals uh he said exactly so do your six Executives have any deals I go no at least they haven't told me I said they want jobs that's what they they spe they said nothing about deals I said nothing about it to you and so I I don't know what we're doing here he says well now let me get to my idea so when I got these six exacts and you know I I know of your work with the with these massive rollouts of I new ideas I have an idea for you I have an initiative I want you to roll out I want you with my help I'm going to educate you you'll then do what you do uh to take that tcid knowledge and make it explicit in a process for massive amounts of people for at least 2500 you can be doing it for the whole industry I want you to educate Executives on how to get into the private Equity game if they want board Consulting what you know uh uh due diligence work what a portfolio company you're going to help them do it and what you're going to do is this the number go one goal is help people understand how to monetize their background their ideas and strategy their background into a deal and when there's a deal that uh a owner wants to sell to an executive or they know of one they're going to want a financial sponsor bring it to us we'll we'll sponsor them that exact will have a choice of whatever part of the game they want to get into Consulting board position maybe they're a fit for the maybe they're a back guy they have big industry experience they know the company really well know the sector well then heck we'll have them run it and the exacts who you know there's going to be two types of execs execs who are getting equity and Equity guys uh are going to typically let's just take we'll just start with the CEO okay uh the CEO typically if I have my goto execs that I know I typically give them 3% of the deal and they have to put money in your execs are going to get between 300,000 a million base up to double their salary and bonuses and they're going to get a minimum 5% and potentially as high as 7% equity in the deal so they're they're going to walk away with 15 to 30 million if they're the CEO now if they're at a different rank they'll get a slightly smaller percentage we typically save for about 15% on the executives and so they're going to walk away to 15 $30 million so you know you know um and that's what I want to help you do is is you're going to get the word out of how to win the game and that's what we did so we found out at Blackmore is that why we weren't that successful with private Equity is we were going to the law private Equity guys really don't make the decisions about EXA they influence it if they're sitting if Tom was on the board he would get asked hey we're going to replace someone who do you know and people will throw you know some of the go-to guys they know in the ring but that's about it typically they'll deal with a hydrix or another private Equity Firm uh not a private Equity Firm a head hunting firm to do the deal and that's how they find the executives so it was very clear to me is that what the mismatches there's this big expectation that private Equity firms are buying up the world yeah they'll buy up anything they get their hands if it's a fit for them and yes there are 1,800 private Equity firms doing this but again some years there're zero and what these executive what keeps them up at night these private Equity Executives keeps them up is they're worrying about putting the money to work faster them they have to get a 30% internal rate of return and they're in a race if they if if let's say in year five they still have money to put to work they only have 5 years and they need to get the uh another 5 years left in the fund or they have to give that money back so and there's nothing that keeps them up more than worrying about where's my next deal coming from I'm only as good as my next deal that's what I hear from so 95% of those deals that they get all come from investment Banks so what they do is spend most of their time doing that so we found and through Tom that basically that what he wanted us to do is help educate you and that's and if you have a deal or know of a deal and we can get it in play that becomes your calling card it becomes we can go out to with you we'll put your name your resume because they always want to know who you are and you get you start getting circulated you start getting known as a guy who has deals that's valuable that's the gold standard now they have time to meet with you because they need deals when there's the deal they want to know about you because they may have something for you but if you're just calling out of the blue and don't have it they don't have time for it that's what we found out so what happened is our first deal CL almost a million dollars in fees helped us uh become an intermediary so what we do is we get paid by private Equity to help Executives uh you know find companies in the beginning all I what I did in my first deal is I said okay who do you know who can we go what supplier vendors can we start talking to let's look at any one of those that's what T Tom told me to do and that's how I got started later I found that was enough we needed to find other ways to access deals so now Blackmore finds 95% of all the opportunities that executive is going to look at 95% you through your network found 5% how do we do that I now have a network of Brokers and I pay them for bringing this deals uh we have at access to a company database now that uh lets us find companies that are not up yet on the market those are the ones you want because if they're on the market that typically means it's you're too late to the game you don't really have unless you have some kind of unique angle and we get in there early enough it's very difficult typically there's another 50 or 100 people in there so you know it's one out of those odds um so our goal is to increase the odds of deals closing and we also have acquisition advisors those are people just like you and me who see opportunities out there they don't want to run the company but they're certainly glad to get a nice check from us for a few hundred grand so they like that so we've really developed an experience- guided process a professional process to help you spend very little time but yet find lots of opportunities to go after when I say a little time I'm talking about 10 hours or we uh just somewhere between 10 and 20 hours we can get it if you follow our steps exactly it's this is a 10-hour week process why do you want to do that well heck it's called thir uh you know5 to $50 million potentiality down the street you be the judge is that big enough game to put you know put time that you might spend on a hobby for 12 to 24 months that's what we're talking about we work now you know back then we had 250 private Equity firms in just in the US now we have 1,500 people go why so many well remember the odds it's F I just like to say it's 500 to1 so you better talk to a lot of private Equity firms so we provide backup after backup after backup targets because you never money is a commodity but you want to be careful of who your partner is so we really have uh put taken this art of deal making and and made it more of a science so we have our two programs we have the back ofec program that means you get Equity you're you're on your way to walking away $15 to $50 million 10 plus were looking for EXs who ran a pale north of 100 million or double the size of the company they're going to they're want to buy great references made money for other people and they're ready for the CEO slot that's what we're looking for and or we're just looking for guys who want to make money get in the private Equity game or get board positions but uh once again though we've got to bring deals to the table that's your calling card uh it's private Equity it it's their reason to get to know you if there's no calling card good luck I say call up those five uh those few private Equity firms but they're all going to say great God you know you're so excellent we'd love to back you buying a deal or yeah of course bring us a deal and we'll put you on the board that's typically all they say what's great about Blackmore is we have a massive number of relationss with private equity and we have the tools and resources in 10 place to help bring the companies to you so what are we looking for well what we would love is you had a deal and you're were going to just Turf it and up to us and we're going to go off and uh get that deal done for you and you either collect a fee or you take on board or you take on a senior position in the company great great s that that's what we'd like now getting there is a whole another story it takes time you either have a deal when they pop up we go shopping for money if not it's a slow process of getting a relationship but with whom well with companies in the 35 to million range a minimum of 5 million epda and the reason is for that is anything under 5 million epda private Equity considers those add-ons and add-ons are um something you want to bolt onto a platform company add-ons are important that's how you're going to make a lot of money however uh it can't be your first acquisition so we look for a company to be your first acquisition to be 5 million MDA if they're smaller than that they're add-ons so we can certainly get add-ons done but typically they don't need a CEO because the company gets folded in under uh under a bigger company so we can do distressed uh we can do deals anywhere in the world basically except um in India and China so I often get asked well how do I know a great Target well basically a good Target is one we talked about the revenue in e da then the uh what also typically is there look for baby boomers guys who have to retire in the next 3 to 5 years and uh we have some reasons I'm going to show you in a moment about why deals are going to get more deals are going to get done we're going to see a very big m&a push here in the next few years um I'll go over that but there typically your target market is Baby Boomers who have either had the company for sale in the past and it didn't go through we call those broken auctions those are the best or just saaby Boomers that are going to have to retire in in the next few years so we but we also going to do car Vats you know people corporations that need to realign their portfolio get rid of companies and then finally you know you have uh um grow uh you need to look for opportunities where you can double or triple that company in 3 to five years that's a key thing 30% inal rate of return if you can't see how that's going to be done forget it uh private equities go what's the angle here what's the strategy we're looking for large fragmented markets uh with and the reason is that you do lots of add-ons GDP 2% you know and if you're a company that is closely in uh if there's no big markets it's growing in it's then going to grow at whatever the overall growth Market 2% you got to do add-ons that is the way towards making a lot more money I'm going to show you how in a an example here in a moment so why is it a let's let's answer the question though I've said it's a great time to buy a company why because taxes with Obamacare capital gains is already moving from 15 to 20% who's kidding who right what what do you mean capital gains isn't going up it is automatically next year and if the Bush tax cuts go away guess what capital gains rate I here is going to go all the way up to 36% now if I'm a small business owner and I'm not really growing this compy I've gotten fat happy I haven't really professionalized in a long time there's lots of uh uh industrial capacity now's a very good time to to uh buy excuse me to sell you know that couple with private Equity firms for quite a few years didn't put money to work so that money is burning a ho in their pocket or it goes back to the investors they need to put money to work that's keeping multiples a little bit higher so it's a very very very good time you know that we're still going to have even though the the official rate um uh unemployment rate we say it's 85% well it isn't it's way higher it's well over double that there is lots of unused industrial capacity you know the vacant homes all that there's foreclosures continuing to go up credit still is a problem for small business owners the southern debt crisis why a lot of it's behind this still all of these things are happening they're drags they're invisible drags so why well not just because taxes are going up but guess what Mr baby boomer owner you know there's a lot of you out there and they too need to unlock wealth and the only way to do that is have an exit those 8 million of them 8 million gosh how many private Equity firms are there 1,00 average pro doing just a few year go figure the math doesn't add up there's no way these companies are going to get bought or if they're going to get bought they're going to have to be sold at fire sale prices get the word out to these owners now is the time to sell okay so we can get deals done in 90 days or if we're starting from a standing start uh it's 12 to 24 months cuz you're building relationships with owners and we have all the tools and templates to help you do this we can help you uh we can teach you to fish help you hook the fish help you get the deal done bring in the money get you the equity 3 to 5 years later you're you call us up and go listen I just sold I've got you know $5 to $50 million not only do I want to buy my next company but I'm going to put AC in on it how do you like that how would you like that I'm going to show you some really great numbers about how rich you're going to be with that and 2012 you know like I said it's going to just look like 2011 lots of Mema out there lots of activity uh if you buy through an investment bank which we don't want to do we buy wholesale investment Banks retail they're all on the 7 to9 uh multiple private Equity fir buy uh bring company that they bought at 7 to9 if you can't see a pathway to grow 30% internal rate return with 70% debt run right back to blackor because we're going to help you do a deal in a reasonable range with a great process while you do other things create a true path towards private Equity funded riches so what are your options well black W was started by accident as I told you by six execs who all said Gerald I want a a piece of the action in other words what do they say I want ownership so what are the types of ownerships we actually see four types from Equity is only one of them one you start growing business two you could buy a company Without Partners three you could find the baby Bon says Bob you know I would love to sell you my company of course I don't have an air and uh but you know what I've neglected it I don't have the same professional skills how about this you know right now this company is at about 2 million e let's get it to around 6 or 7 million e and then I'm going to really be out of you I'm going let's just sell it and you bring in whatever money get and you I'll I'll sell it to you okay or what we say yeah go after all three of these right maybe you know of all you know maybe you restarted your own business cuz you started Consulting great uh but you can buy a company Without Partners you get a half million dollar Nest EG or you do the CEO succession plan the main thing that what we want you to do is we say buying company with private Equity partner even though it's uh somewhere between 5 and 7% Equity great salary and bonus you're going to walk away with a bigger chunk of money and I'm going to show you how but you need to know that each one of these have there's there's good things and bad things Star your own business you know you never have enough money it takes a long time to really cash flow buying company Partners biggest issue is typically you can't afford anyone better than yourself and probably you wouldn't pay yourself full salary and you can't really get the scale and there's still debt issues uh with the succession plan opportunity you know the biggest challenge yeah you improve the company what I know typically see exacts like you help that owner they grow that e gets to a great uh size and the owner goes you know what I'm not ready this year now let's do it next year next year RS by I'm still not ready you know uh I'm I'm having such a good time yeah but he's at wacky Key Beach he has the planes you know has the the Automobiles and and your help funding that it's a beautiful thing you are the best thing since sliced bread that came along to that executive to professionalize that organization why would he want to sell out he can if he can keep you on the hook for another 3 to 5 years and then sell out that's a way more beautiful thing so you know or you know buying a come to the private Equity Partners no walk in the park either you know that's why we you know one it's it's hard to get a deal done but also it takes a long time and then private Equity once you're in your new seat get ready to run a marathon at a Sprint Pace can you do that to get the patience to get the persistence the drive most people say they do they don't or we'd be doing a lot more deals than we're doing it is it people like it easy hey here's the they want to be served a company on a silver platter well profit Equity does doesn't want that they're not looking for that can't get in the game with that but let's talk about what does the model look like if you were to if you and I found a company and it's 25 million in Revenue you pay for multiple perfect right in that sweet spot 3 to six multiple and you pay four for it they're going to put debt on it somewhere between 50 and 70% for the purpose of our model will say 60 you're going to pay down that debt and let's say day one we get you uh even $500,000 worth of equity that's worth 6.3% you pay down the at debt you increase Revenue to 32 million even Da goes to eight pay down the debt now you own 14% of that company well the private Equity firms we all work with well all give you if you want to if you want to Triple this number right here what you do is that you take that money that you would have us that Nest Egg money and you put it here you double down you get a put another half million in that that would give you 12 12.6% okay and then the private Equity Firm the private Equity Firm will uh give you a non recourse loan that means you don't have to pay it back boosting you to 18% and then just imagine you do the exact same scenario this is a small deal and now instead of 4 million you're at 12 million wait let's not stop there let's say you follow the uh black more methodology for add-ons and instead you buy four or five add-ons and you bring the uh Revenue up to 75 million instead of 8 million epda you're doing 16 instead of a five multiple because this is under 10 million ebda uh companies and with the ebda is above 10 million and when you start going above 15 it's even more so a 16da would likely go for a 10 multiple 160 million even in scenario one at 14% that's 20 million if you're doing our triple down scenario well you're talking somewhere around you know 40 plus okay well over that right it's it's a beautiful thing actually it's more like 50 million if you do the uh tripling down you put a half a million you have 18% that becomes 36% 36% of 160 million uh do the math right considering that you paid down most everything all the debt so it is a lot Buu bucks the private Equity role so you really got to keep that in mind otherwise you can't do it you won't you go you'll just go back into being a corporate wage life not a bad scenario or you could be bu your own deal like I said you could take that same half a million you got as a nest by your own company okay um and uh there it is you know you don't get the same bump and multiples you still have to pay down the debt if you can even get debt at a small company so let's talk about how does Private Equity create value well in the 80s what they did is financial engineering borrow 90% of it basically then the '90s you you couldn't do that anymore so it was all but all about buying companies looking at how to improve them finding you know good Executives and executive teams and incenting people to operationally improve and now it's a little bit of both yet it put some uh Financial engineering lots of operational Improvement look for companies that are the right match organically grow but do lots of add-ons add-ons add-ons add-ons and the tactics we you know those tactics are in get the best people that's what private Equity wants to get the very best incent them give every someone some equity and the Senior Team level Drive rapid change and day one going okay how am I going to exit what's my pathway and building the pipes to uh to lay the foundation for that exit to happen so we've been talking about the private Equity process how do you win the game how do you get B how do you get portfolio companies how do you uh to run how do you get uh board positions Consulting you got to bring the game to private Equity some of you have game to bring right now but for most everyone that I know is they don't have it so they need to do a start from start to finish they have to ramp up and that's about takes about about 10 hours a week and 12 to 24 months for that process and even though we bring the targets you got to talk to them and at first those targets say no that means not now but then when we go raise the money remember money is a commodity but private Equity is very particular so we're going to get you know lots of people people say no no no no no to get one close but what's the what's the benefit of our process we're buying all our deals are always here 3 to six now gosh I'd make a lot more money if it was in 8 to 15 I would right private Equity Firm pays it does pay that why would you want to pay that you wouldn't because you want to have a great exit and you want to buy the house at the right price this is no different than buying a house very very similar so there are four phases that we worked with you on phase one is we help you develop your strategy where am I going to go how I'm going to go execute on this process what are my tools and templates we develop the whole strategy with you we help you we find 80 I would say closer to 90% of the targets for you to go after and we help you ex reel the hook the fish and reel it in and then the last part of it is is uh we go help you with you are in your new seat you're running the company here are the steps in much more detail now there's eight pages of steps in the materials that you'll get once you send me an email and I'll send you the the detailed slide deck but the main message that I want to you know leave for you is where are What are you are you a bable EXA or do you fit acquisition advisor program what do you want to do you let us know we know that one thing we can help you win the private Equity game whatever you want but there's only one way that we've got to have a calling card the calling card are Deals Deals Deals because that's what private Equity firms are paid to do remember they raise money and then they have to put that money to work and that's what they care about there's no two ways about it I hope that this phone call was Illuminating we are here here to work with you once again we get paid by private Equity let me know send me an email and I will commit with you the week of the 16th I am busy till then due to travel to the middle uh to Asia thank you very much