welcome to sustainability scores the podcast for research analyst who wants to unlock insights from corporate sustainability data I'm your host Vikram Shetty today I am joined by my guest anivishi to talk about brsr core and wish you welcome to the show thanks Vikram thank you for having me here for folks who are just meeting you for the first time could you share a little bit about who you are and what you do absolutely yes uh so I am somebody who's been in the industry for a long two decades in fact two decades and a little more uh but while that is where I have come from in a professional background but where I am today is more to do with the fact that sustainability is a challenge that is not just specific to Industry specific to an individual it's a little more Global so that's the space in which we are playing uh we are of course in our pursuit of addressing this whole Challenge on climate change and in overall sustainability looking at how we could have large scale impact with corporates and through EDU education initiatives that we also take up with some small educational institutions schools and stuff so but otherwise I think most importantly for this case this conversation uh clearly cooperates and what we do with them would be of interest uh yeah that's the backdrop by the way guys I lead this company called ad Quest Sustainable Solutions uh which is about three and three years and a little more into its existence got it so would it be fair enough to say so you are more of a sustainability ESG consultant for the companies who wants to perceive their sustainability yes professionally that would be how you will put it but personally if you were to ask me I'd say Enthusiast evangelist put those terms on me got it got it uh so the topic that we are going to talk about in today's episode is uh brsr core so can you share with our listener what is brsr okay so we probably have to jog a little uh like a couple of years in the timeline and with Where it All Began is when in the Indian regulatory Authority for sustainability reporting this one is called sebi the regulatory Authority came up with an idea of transitioning from business responsibility reporting which was called brr to something called business responsibility and sustainability reporting brsr now that's the fact that the S was introduced was indicative enough that the authority out here was clearly looking at sustainability being a centerpiece of corporate reporting on the non-financial side now when they introduce that and they brought out the templates and the structure for that it it was in the first year very voluntary in nature meaning to say there was no compulsion for anybody to go for a prsr reporting uh the last Financial year which is financial year 22-23 was the first year for which every corporate in the top thousand Club was expected to do a brsr report mandatory so as we speak right now companies are putting together their first brsr report based on the actions taken in the last Financial year so that's the action that has happened on what we have just called as brsr in about in about March 2023 which is just a couple of months back less than a couple of months back March 29th to be specific um sebi again came out with a notification that talked off the fact that not just about reporting on brsr for top housing companies but let's take it a step further and ask for a third party mandatory reasonable Assurance of the entire report so that the the stakeholders were using these reports are having a double assurance that there is absolutely no good winking behind the report there's no Green version behind the report Etc so sevi came out with what is called the prsr code which is a bunch of 88 performance parameters that any third-party authorized assurer or auditor will be going into this organizations the companies and checking them against and issuing them a certificate of the certificate for the report so in in short it is basically a third party audit of your brsr report got it and is it applicable for the only 1000 or does the uh factor of how many company who needs this brsr core have changed so so the the BR Sr by itself is for the top thousand of course like I just said this is the first year of it that is happening right now right when it comes to the brsr core of course they the they did not go out with all the top thousand right away they've said let's look at the top 150 for this year this current year we'll do with 150 and what it means is that uh once 150 is done and the ambition is to go by 26 27 fiscal year 26 27 by that time they want to do all the Thousand now whether the Thousand becomes another 2000 and thereabouts is something that hasn't been explicitly mentioned but clearly 150 today this year 2000 by 2627 is what has been articulated recorded So suppose if let's say someone from that 150 companies listening to this episode right now and how will they find this uh aggregated the Raiders who who can give them certificate where they can find them and how to identify if they are qualified or not true so that that's the space that I don't think is so concrete yet in terms of who will be the right assurer for this because what of course we all know globally is that there's an enough and more clarity for anything about financial audits right so something like ESG or non-financial audits while in India also I would be honest there are companies leading companies who have taken up non-financial PhD based audits with global benchmarks like sa 8000 and all uh this space of the brsr code is absolutely uh new so it hasn't yet been explored but what I have also hearing is that clearly the uh the conventional Auditors uh which is the big four and the likes of them will definitely have their uh abilities and skills to kind of go for this kind of an audit as well it will require them to build a set of new skills and capabilities maybe but I don't think it's a fast stretch to imagine that they will definitely be at the Forefront of this exercises uh at this point no clear answers about where to fetch a library of such Auditors or assurers got it now that makes a little bit of a sense there I understand you uh while we are setting up this conversation for this podcast you mentioned something there that this would be a Quantum so can you dig into it dive and explore it why do you mention that it will be a Quantum Leap yeah so so when it comes to sustainability reporting in India clearly that transition that I mentioned a while back brr to brsr itself for the top thousand companies is quite a big deal because of the fact that when we say top thousand companies listed in the Indian markets up after about 150 to 180 which means ranking 150 180 thereabouts that that's the large gaps anything after 180 thereabouts is all mid cap still about 500 and then 500 all the way till 1000 is all small caps now clearly we understand what we mean by large and weight and small because that's the kind of market capitalization they have so when it comes to someone like a mid cap and a small cap company which is like I just mentioned a clear 80 percent of the Thousand companies they have only because of the brsr started taking their first step words reporting on sustainability they wouldn't have otherwise probably even brought it into their Ambit now because they have just done that now and currently we are again talking about that whole transitioning into prsr core based Assurance over a period of time that's something that they have to now prepare themselves for because once they do it once they once they have to go through that rigor of an assurance they will have to make sure that their entire DNA has to now accommodate this whole aspect of sustainability to the truest sense not just about putting in outnumbers for the sake of putting out numbers not not just about ticking boxes for the sake of ticking boxes but because now you will have somebody come in and check are sure and certify that you've done it right you will you will act you'll have to act very very responsibly on this Quran and that's why I call it a Quantum live it's a shift in the DNA in a certain way guarded guarded guarded and that's why I kind of uh the impact on the Indian corporate is like it it has to start that journey of uh I wouldn't like towards the sustainability so they have to start their Journey because this will kind of enforce it quote unquote in a way for the Indian government yeah in fact Vikram I'll also extend that answer for a little more uh not just about the fact that there's an assured there's a third party coming into this whole brsr core has been introduced in that in that notification I mentioned that came in March is that it is going to have effect on four different dimensions uh very obviously the two Dimensions that we've discussed one is about the fact that companies will have to act a lot more mature in their reporting very obviously that is an effect second effect is the fact that there will be an assurance or an audit uh kind of a come Community where they will have to upskill and come up with the ways to kind of assess and make sure that the Assurance is done right that's the second effect but the other two are far more interesting one um the third one is the fact that the brsr core will be the basis for ESG ratings in India to a large extent and I will tell you what I mean by that so clearly in India Telltale about this this notification came in all of the companies were banking on ESG ratings from globally recognized names whether it's a sustained analytics whether it's a SNP Global msci whoever now what has been observed in by the Indian authorities and in the Indian corporate setup overall is that the the methodologies or the rating approaches that these International agencies take isn't attuned to the Indian context the realities of the Indian context which is like we all know a growing economy there's a lot of social uh aspect I mean significantly larger social aspect than in any other developed country all of those aspects were not considered in the mix of the the way the methodologies for these agencies were evolved so therein came sebi and said let us revisit this whole ESG rating picture and introduce what they have introduced as Putin ESG parameters for rating of Indian companies by an India registered agency now what I'm getting to is that that 14 parameters that has been introduced by sebi of those proteins five of them again come from brsr core which means to say if you have done your brsr core bit appropriately for perfectly correctly you would be clearly 36 percent ready for the rating agencies getting a good rating from the rating agencies so that's that's a clear added advantage of doing this brsr code right for any corporate so that's number three number four is that they have also issued guidelines to mutual fund houses in the share market in India saying that you will if at all have a ESG scheme something that's labeled as a ESG fund or ESG scheme you will make sure that 65 of your funding goes into companies that are already reporting against prsr code and 35 percent of the remaining will go for companies that are at least reporting on prsr now that that is a guideline that was non-existent so a mutual fund office typically would have called an ESG scheme and this taken their own approach to judge who is the right company to invest which is the right company to invest into but now this guideline is there now there's going to be a lot of real element of this scheme so for you as a company to be attractive to that ESG fund house you need to be of course BRS are core ready that is when you will be more attracted that is when funds will come to your company right I hear you so there's there's quite a few different dimensions in which this whole PR circuit is going to shake up uh the whole Space got it guarded I absolutely understand that right now and in fact uh my next question was already uh like you partly answered for it which I will ask anyways to see if there are any missing part so what would be the uh impact on the ESG rating was my score so let me just reframe it now that you mentioned that there are there would be 14 ESG parameters and 36 percent of uh which will be complete if you are already qualified for the uh brsr core yeah so so for for folks who are kind of two part question maybe first is so now we will have an Indian body with ESG rating that's the first thing so do you have any idea like which will be there at Indian body will it be something like a regulatory body uh or it will it be a independent body how how that will work out yeah so I'll answer that quickly yeah yeah so the in the Indian context again these are being called erps I believe that's the global term but I've just read it from what I read from this episode It's called ESG rating providers erps right now the erps the way sebis envisaged that planned is that they will be qualifying them based on criteria there's something that they've created I think two categories of erps that will be registered with sebi and then they will be the ones who can go ahead and issue the rating agent so it's not a it's not a directly government-owned rating agency but government registered rating agency right that's what it will be and in the context of the ratings that we said I believe the way these things will pan out in the in the future is that companies that are let's say having global operations and of course the significant Indian presence will go for the Indian Indian rating and also will go for a globality so there will be that transition time clearly when both those ratings will be globally operating entities uh in the coming years so that's how I look at it uh for the erps there's enough and more criteria that has been put out by sebi and that is how they will be chosen so will it be safe to say that the sustain analytics and the msci has like Nothing is Stopping them from creating their Indian entity absolutely nothing oh yeah absolutely and they might have to kind of rerun their uh models in the the rating models or whatever their underlying infrastructure is based on the new data points for the uh brsr core which which more or less they will be anyways helping or they they will get this data anyways from the either from the uh organization or this third party assurers which they can easily collect and then they can run their model of uh rating or subscribe so I believe someone like assistant analytics or of other matter SMP Global whoever from the global agency space will will have probably for the Indian market a a separate offering got it apart from the fact that they will still continue their Global offerings which is of course globally accepted they will also have an Indian offering for a line for that is aligned with the Indian requirement so that's how I foresee things spanning out and just to be clear of Vikram this ESG 14 parameters that I mentioned is still something that we are picking from a consultation paper which was done in Feb by sevi they are they've said in their March release the press release that they will soon be issuing more guidelines we are waiting for that to come out and that will make things more clear recorded and in the scheme of things we have what we're talking is the uh somewhere in the mid of like three to four years like this all things will consolidate and maybe as you mentioned in the year 2000 25 26 or 26 27 things will be much more clearer in this much clearer while we just spoke about the uh 150 companies and all of that for the bi support next year there's another expectation that CB has outlined again in the consultation paper so far but I think that will still definitely make it to the Final Cut what they've said is that next year 250 companies will also have to look at the supply chain players wow now they are performing on the parameters of brsr code right and and uh will this be applicable to all the supply chain or then again so that the boundaries I think they have to still Define you are absolutely spot on on that question because they're not defined in fact they clearly have mentioned in their release saying we will Define the boundaries or we'll give you more specifics of what we mean by supply chain got it that is to come out but even if it is bare minimum let's say one level up stream one level Downstream is still talking quite a lot considering these are companies in the top 250 these are large companies they have large Supply chains they have enough and more coverage of different uh medium small businesses also in this right right I mean you sound very excited and for all the right reasons so at least in my my assessment and we have been working with one of the Indian consultant like two years back we kind of worked with the uh a kind of not a product but more like a digital tool so that uh to make it easy for the companies and the MF and now you are talking about the rating agency in the audit and so on and so forth yeah uh the elephant in the room the big question I have on behalf of all the corporates yeah uh what can they do to prepare themselves with whatever information that they had what would be your like top three top five advice for them like they can do this this and this so that they are not ill prepared or they are not taken by surprise so so what has again going back to brr brsr and everything that I painted in front of you uh what at least today today companies are fairly well versed with is the brsr template or the brsr requirement of reporting of course what is the new new hit on the Block is the brsr code right right now when we did a comparison we are in our own team we've done this comparison of what the brsr core against the brsr looks like now 88 indicators is what I said performance indicators is what I said the prsr core is all about we mapped that 88 indicators to the 200 plus kind of questions that are there in the brsr 90 of them are either directly available in the prsr or are traceable through the data that you have already furnished in the brsr yeah means to say even while you're doing your brsr today you are actually a able to kind of prepare yourself if you're looking into the BR Circle you're preparing you you can actually start preparing yourself for the prsr core just organically now of course there will be that requirement for you to inform and educate about the brsr core and be a lot more aware of it that is there but I think that's the kind of conversation that at least we are having with our clients when we are engaging with them on the brsr template or brsr reporting aspect we're saying we will parallely with the same in the same exercise start assisting you for your core you don't have to publish it outside anywhere but you still will know virtual where you are where your standing is you can move your gaps are and start prepping for it in the year you have a year time year's time two years time whatever depending on where your ranking is in the 1 2000 bucket but you you can use this as something that sets your direction and roadmap and that's exactly what I'm saying would be a good approach God so that's not so scary at all it isn't it and and for the all the my data visualization friend or the analyst who is there so imagine if you have a big circle and there is a circle inside that like a Venn diagram sitting inside it so the inner circle is uh the 88 data point or the indicator and the Outer Circle has 200 plus the core brsr question so it although although I think 10 percent of it lies outside the brsr so it's not exactly concentric or inner and outer outfit that is lying outside so more like the annual reports the ten percent God got it yeah so that's why when you simplify it you get more absolutely yeah yeah got it uh interesting uh I just want to make a one segue and then we can come back to it you mentioned something that you already helped your client so how do you kind of in your day-to-day uh basis how do you collect all those uh 200 uh data points what uh if you are uh have if you can share a little bit about what goes through into it what is the timeline or what is the uh uh operation time so the basic idea of asking this question is if someone out there as you mentioned from mid cap or especially the small cap one who are doing this for the first time they get a picture of what goes in how much effort goes into it what is the timeline where do they fill in the data do they get in the Excel sheet or how many people needs to access that Excel sheet like little bit of logistical sure so to begin with just to put things in context in the brsr which is the 200 pointer 200 point question that I'm talking about uh there are questions that ask for data for The Current financial year and the previous Financial year so which means that if nothing for if Just For Those Questions you'll have to at least fetch data two years back now but for somebody like you just said in the mid and small cap segment uh talking about this whole sustainability reporting is is itself a new ball game and for them to now go back to their individual functions and departments and say you'll have to dig out data and share it with me is of course a tall order or else having said that having said that I think the whole exercise at least for the first year is going to definitely throw those challenges at us and we Face enough of them in our exercises ourselves uh where where you will have to sensitize the people to understand why is it required because this is a mandate because this is required for us to make sure that you are projecting your own company in the right way to the world out there no but that sensitization is what it is second is of course a lot of lot of hand holding and initially trust me Excel sheets are are saviors right uh clear while all of us who teaches something these companies the smaller companies that we're talking about the far more easy to kind of uh are they they're comfortable with right so we we would believe that having a template in an Excel format and say let's walk this through you and let's see what data you have and if it helps you let's also look through your physical records if at all if not digital records you may have physical records somewhere and that's what we will go for right all of those nitty-gritties of filling in the data is what what happens and eventually eventually it has to also have a top down Direction I mean if the management isn't yet convinced to kind of Drive their individual departments and be very honest it's it's a game that is that is going to be all the more tough because there is a deadline September end is the deadline for the annual report submission along with the prsr submission you're not too far from it if you are not even ready with your initial data so we always also have to drive that mindset shift top at the top at the very top that's very important as well right so yeah it's a mixed game there got it uh I just lost you and between let me just make sure that we capture it again so for our listener to get it uh you mentioned that Excel sheet is the Lifesaver I said it's a lifesaver yeah yeah so I uh so does that mean when you go into individual department and when you share your Excel sheet you kind of send the entire template to yeah definitely I'll tell you what even with splitting the Excel sheets into let's say an HR specific question Finance questionnaire or procurement questionnaire even having done that the the kind of questions that are asked in there is going to definitely be a shocker of sorts for anybody who has to fill in that data right I just mentioned that there are questions that ask for two years data in fact very beginning of the brsr asks you do you want to report on a standalone basis which means to say your Indian registered entity only or do you want to report for every other branch that you may have in every other part of the world now that itself is a big question to ask and where do we get all the data points from if we are operating in multiple countries so all of those are challenges for which reason we will definitely split the sheet into what is just relevant for that particular segment of the business and share it only only that that part of it with them got it I I understand that now yeah yeah I mean we have been collecting data for I don't know almost 15 years now yeah with your background you clearly understand data way better than anybody else yeah absolutely I mean if you allow me uh and being India like this is one of my uh I understand the ground reality so I'm not against the method like it is absolutely in the end because it is so much changing uh the things so much change and there are so much nuances for certain company that you cannot have one size fit all to all the companies I I completely agree with that and welcome just to extend it the Excel sheet Cooks today are to be actually gradually graduated to an ESG software-based recording to excel sheets this year and the year after in the year that doesn't work but then you cannot straight away throw this ESC software at them absolutely yeah that will that will definitely not work the whole comprehensive thing is uh but that is where an intermediate more like a a survey data complex data collection tool with integrated a chat box is something that we highly recommend I mean definitely uh it's a it's a plug that I'm trying to make but what I'm what I want to kind of emphasize not for only the companies but also the Consultants like you will be working see there are 1000 companies so definitely there will be at least one thousand such exercises going on at any given point of time so you have to kind of uh keep in mind that the the thing with digital digital doesn't have to be a very at the so it doesn't have to be a spectrum it doesn't have to be a very complex thing even if we're on a simplest thing on a page the same as you collect on an Excel but it will be on a web because you can share it with multiple people and because you can have all the conversation at one place that that does not become just only the data collection tool but it also becomes a knowledge source for people absolutely analytics and possibly even recommendations right and what happens is you will have a platform or something where you consume if for any consultant like uh you if you are working with half a dozen companies the learning that you have on rest of them can be easily broadcasted to your to all of them so you don't have to send them keep sending them revised Excel sheet and stuff you change it at one place and they get I mean and I'm sorry to kind of Sidetrack the conversation but India in the IIT capital of the world so that is the that is something I always kind of it I understand there is the cost angle to it and there is all the implementation right and all that yeah I I agree to it but uh I I always feel that even with an MVC phase that would be one of the approaches but but that doesn't mean like the one that you suggested is the more practical trial and tested in it's it is the current state that people like to do and it is people where even from the user side they are very much comfortable doing it yeah completely yeah yeah anyways uh we're just trying to uh get into the end of the episode is there any other point uh that you want to share that you haven't shared with me and before I asked my last couple of questions nothing that's that's not shared but I think what is important is that as we engage with clients anybody who's engaging with operates out there I think what is important and I believe that's something we also kind of try to do three do to the extent that we can is to tie this whole work on corporate sustainability to what we all know very obviously as sustainable development goals which is where the impact aspect comes out right one is about the data points and what I am doing but at the end of the day those data points should mean something for the global goals that is where the whole conversational sustainability began right so if we can also use that this opportunity to kind of tie it back to the sdgs that will probably be the right way to kind of knit it all together that's the only last point I would make right if I want to take the liberty and convert it into a business terms you have to come up with the business strategy so that you can come build more sustainable products so that you can benefit both the planet people and the prosperity of the absolutely got it that's the core of the whole otherwise we are not collecting data for fun yeah absolutely no all right so my last question uh based on the theme of the podcast is where do you see the possibility of scorecards and this whole exercise clearly I think scorecards is the way to go considering the fact that these exercises that I'm talking about are also not just expecting the the severe The Authority here is not just expecting you to do a PDF based submission of these reports let's let me also bring that out I'm not expecting you to do a submission on in a format that's called xbrl which you may be aware of yes now the xbrl format is all about digital for analytics and Data Insights at some point right now that's the whole point when you are talking about also digitizing data to that extent it is eventually going to be used to compare peer-to-peer against about what's happening and at the end of the day the ESG ratings that are coming out based on the same uh platform the foundation of prsr everything is at the end of the day about scorecards and doing doing your other benchmarking yourself against the peers in that same space so I believe we are heading in that direction very obviously with these these things that are happening right now okay and uh would it be safe to say based on whatever information that you have done uh and because if I have seen one template uh in the past of vrs uh where you mentioned about different departments and there are Sub sub sections or there are three I may say and to an extent that we can even do a theme voice comparison across industry or even companies peer-to-peer sector region and stuff like that yeah yeah so slicing slices absolutely possible whether you want to do it on Dimensions which is e s g in this one could also be done in another way where you are talking of in the whole context of the vrs there is a stock of nine broad principles so each principle is about a social angle or a governance angle or an environment so you can see at a principle one to principle nine level where are you stacking up right so everything is of course the the every part of it is of course very very obviously available for us to analyze and see where we can improve so the answer to that is a big yes and will all this information readily available to the public will it needs to be disclosed openly to the so what what they are doing is that the prsr reports in both PDF and xbrl format are out there in public domain that's the beginning of it all it's it's for public consumption it is always meant for when I say public I don't necessarily mean common man out there but I'm just saying every stakeholder of every that is part one and part two from what I'm hearing is that there is going to be sooner than later A online system which will be used to do these analytics and this is not coming from a private party this will come from a government Authority a Ministry or a government Authority which will also do the analytics and I'm sure at that level when that happens that will also be made accessible for right informed decisions to be made by different stakeholders wow I can say how this information can be used by uh different uh mutual fund houses or Auditors or uh yes yes anybody yeah I mean clearly there's enough enough value for different stakeholders in different ways God God I mean that's music to my ears already uh thank you so much this has been great why can people find more about you online um I think my LinkedIn would be the best way to reach me I'm my LinkedIn is of course with my first name and last name which is if you look at look me up I'll be accessible there that's the best way otherwise yeah I mean I think Twitter but not so much LinkedIn is the best way right I'll mention your link in the show notes so that people can find it easily uh you you shared that literature of the release the press release that happened is there a public link available to that also that that we can add in the show notes for listening yes I will I will share that yes it is available of course on the public domain God we'll mention that as well I will also volunteer to share an infographic on brsr code with a link to that that can also be made available to the audience absolutely and I think we have just mentioned this in your LinkedIn recently yeah that's very useful sure thanks for joining me absolutely thank you Vikram thanks for having me it is wonderful talking all right thanks for listening if you have found this conversation useful please subscribe to sustainability scores podcast to join me again next time