[Music] oh my God couldn't be any more excited for this episode I'm doubly excited good cuz that's appropriate because we are talking about too faace one of my favorite villains of all time and and the best thing about this episode from my perspective is that it's the first time in the episodes that we've covered so far that we are seeing a legitimate origin story so um I am very excited I know you're excited this is part one of a two-parter we are going to do part two next week um so let's jump into part one right now first let's talk about Twoface a little bit sure um Twoface is a character who's been around since the 40s um he was actually introduced in Detective Comics number 66 uh Bill finger and Bob Kane uh created him uh in the summer of 1942 he made his first appearance now this was a character I'll give a little bit of backstory on his Origins then versus what we're going to talk talk about in the Animated Series Twoface was originally well in his first appearance he was Harvey Kent but it was a little too close to Clark so he's changed to Harvey Dent but um Harvey was the district attorney uh who was Prosecuting the Mob Boss s [ __ ] and S threw acid in his face um thus scarring half of his face and turning him into uh one of Batman's arch nimes at the time he wasn't so much um he wasn't a big part of Batman's Rogues Gallery in fact he only made three appearances in the 40s in his third appearance actually um he was cured uh his his scarring was his disfigurement was um was fixed and he was cured of of his Insanity um which kind of makes him a really boring villain so we didn't see him again until the 50s really only made a couple appearances in the 50s it wasn't until the 1970s with Denny O'Neal that he came in and actually solidified himself as a member of the Rogues gallery and really it wasn't until um Batman year 1 written by Frank Miller where we get a little bit of backstory um that we continue to see in Batman the Animated Series and that is that he is good friends with both Bruce Wayne and Commissioner Gordon uh which sort of makes him that much more tragic uh when he becomes a villain and now Batman and and Commissioner Gordon are having to uh are having to go after their old friend right um and then uh after year one Andrew heler the writer actually introduced um sort of an alcoholic and abusive father in Harvey's past and and uh there was even uh mentions of early kind of struggles with uh was paranoia and there was even bipolar disorder um all of that we can certainly get into um as we go on which uh we can do now this episode was the 10th uh in the two-parter it was the 10th episode uh first aired September 25th 1992 when we're introduced to Harvey it's actually through a nightmare right the episode opens up with this um dark scene Harvey is um alone uh sort of distraught he's hearing this voice Harvey Harvey D and we start to see the the signature coin flip at the time it's not signature uh to us if we're going by the episode right we've not seen anything like that before but he in this dream he approaches this dark figure who's in the shadows you can't really quite make out who he is but you see um this hand come out and he flips a coin and uh apparently that that gesture is you know incredibly frightening to Harvey you can't get away from me he wakes up from his dream and he's just sweating um you know he wakes up in this panic attack he's completely distressed and distraught by this dream yeah so we we find out through I don't know if it's his personal assistant or his campaign manager he sort of seems to have um job descriptions of both but this gentleman comes in tells Harvey that they're going on a raid now why the district attorney is there for the raid I don't really know but uh the the gcpd are going after these guys who are fighting back with a vengeance they've even got rocket launchers um and uh Batman comes in and of course saves the day but in his opportunity to get in front of the camera Harvey of course Praises Gotham City's Police Department Commissioner Gordon especially Harvey mentions that I will not rest until Gotham City has been dethorn once and for all uh so so you're right he's absolutely got a great deal of pressure uh on him and we start to see him break a little bit because one of the thugs as he's being carried off in handcuffs kicks mud onto the suit of Harvey Dent um and in otherwise jovial Harvey flips out I mean just loses his stuff you little weasel I'll tear you apart help get him off he's crazy someone get him off me if you were to see someone especially someone as public as Harvey uh just go to town on a guy in handcuffs what are you thinking well at this point you know we we haven't seen this before from him but he's you know one can say certainly he has anger problems that he's um irritable that he's on edge you know it's not I would actually say it's not you know abnormal to have moments of losing control especially if someone is attacking your character and essentially you know humiliating you in front of cameras in public Harvey's Persona Harvey's public Persona um his character his morality that's incredibly important to him he's up for reelection he has conviction that he is the best person for this job and you know these thugs are attacking his his credibility yeah and something you just said actually um brings up an interesting point you you said that they're basically U laughing at him uh and and what we actually hear we we do sort of get the sense that that's how he perceives them um and that maybe that hearkens back to uh an old memory or something that he has because when he kicks it uh the mud onto his suit and Harvey flips out he actually starts to hear laughter from people around him um and he specifically says you know kick mud in my face will you like he this is something that you get to sense that he's dealt with maybe since childhood like there's something there's something wrong and I think that there's something a little telling as well um when the news report you know summer gleon comes on says unfortunately handsome Harvey earned a new nickname tonight hothead Harvey when he attacked one of the suspects well certainly all of us have hot buttons you know like if if you tease somebody or say some something to someone and it happens to be something they're very sensitive about like somebody May um you know tease you about your hair color or you know say something about Gotham City that means I'm a villain right if you're a ginger apparently you will be recruited as a villain in Gotham City but you know someone calls you a ginger or says you know something derogatory about your hair color you may be sensitive to that because I'm I know I'm not taking a guess at this we've talked about this before you have a history of this happening to you sure right so similarly you know someone may call me short or you know say say something about um you know being nerdy or liking math too much I mean whatever it may be we all have sensitivities and if somebody attacks you or insults you around that particular characteristic you might be more prone to get defensive and and you may want to lash out that's completely normal got what's a little bit abnormal is the the you know the level at which he um combats the guy like he he boils I mean he attacks him and so he goes from zero to 10 or zero to rage in a second that's a little bit um like I said abnormal that's a little bit out of the ordinary in the sense that he his mood State changes so quickly right um and that would concern me certainly that's something that would make me pause and wonder well it doesn't just concern you it concerns Bruce Wayne and it concerns Harvey's fiance Grace um they mention at a gathering at a function later uh Bruce mentions Harvey you didn't just lose your temper out there you were like another person and it's revealed at this function that Harvey is secretly seeing a psychiatrist for this which isn't uncommon and it's actually encouraged I mean if you've got a position of power where you could literally boil over like this you might want to get it out um now how it's perceived in the public eye is something entirely different and that is very much what Harvey is concerned about especially given that he is currently in the middle of a campaign for re-election right I think that's fairly realistic and the show does a really cool job of um you know making it clear that Bruce Wayne and Harvey Den's fiance are accepting of his of Harvey receiving psychiatric help that they're supportive of it that they want him to get better um but that they're worried about him and at the same time they understand that he's in the in the public eye and that this could be something that could really tarnish his reputation and and could cost him his reelection so you know the show I think is very realistic about that and I I really admire the show for for even having this dialogue about you know getting help is okay just out of curiosity on a little bit of a sidebar here U because we've mentioned Grace how long do you think this episode's been since Pretty Poison I know I thought about that cuz he was like absolutely in love with um Harvey's been engaged twice that guy really wants to get married um but but Grace seems to be the one she she supports him she absolutely loves him um she's backing him in all the right in all the right ways right and it's actually at this fundraiser um where you know Grace and and Harvey and Bruce Wayne are um you know enjoying the event and Carlos Harvey's assistant approaches him and says apparently the um the thugs that Harvey helped you know take down and and get locked away we um we're being set free yes um so clearly which again sets Harvey off into another ball of rage right so just hearing that information he gets in irritated and upset he throws Carlos onto a table says that the judge is on the take just like everybody else I mean yeah goes goes off right again that elevated mood the quickness you know the the um rapid uation of mood and um you know the extreme nature of his Rage that's not quite typical that's another that's yet another sign it's almost like if if we imagine that this is around the same time not too long after um the first one we might even say this as part of his you know um initial or or overall um episode of being irritable right and that's when uh Bruce and Grace approach him with their concern and find out about as psychiatrist yeah and and it's interesting because uh they make it sound as if this is something that is brand new to them so this isn't necessarily A personality trait that he has been showing throughout the time that he's known Bruce and you certainly get the sense that he and Bruce Wayne have been good friends for quite a long time this is something that really kind of seems to be sudden and uh that's going to lead me into the next scene and that is is we see Harvey go uh undergoing hypnosis therapy by his psychiatrist for starters let's talk a little bit about hypnosis um because I know that it's one of those therapies that's a little controversial um and and certainly if you heard last week I'm a huge magic nerd even HP stage hypnosis is just as controversial well F right and first we need to make that distinction there's something called hypnosis and there's something that's hypnotherapy and that's actually they're actually very different um techniques and there and very different people are qualified to do either one you know yeah so I just want to make clear that um you know a hypnotherapist is a different you know has different training than a hypnotist okay so tell I mean you have more experience with hypnotism as um you know as a stage technique as um as a performance you know what what would you say about what can you share about your experiences with that uh I mean you know it's it's one of those things it's always sort of fun to watch in a way I mean it it's very sophomoric I mean you are you are usually watching your good friend barking like a dog or something on stage but it's interesting there's a there's a world famous magician SL Mentalist by the name of Darren Brown who has spent a great deal of his life as a hyp hypnotist M and even he in his book tricks of the mind says that he doesn't even know if hypnosis is real I mean why is that because you can't really know you can't you can't there's no way he says you basically have three categories of people you have a person or or you have three possibilities rather you've got a person who is really hypnotized so that if I ask you to bark like a dog you will do it because you have been told to um and then you've got the people who um they subconscious they want to bark like a dog not specifically but they they want the attention they enjoy being on the stage being used as an example and even though they might not be hypnotized they might allow themselves to think that they are and they might go along with it um whether they're conscious the fact that they're going along with it or not because it's something that subconsciously they want to do they want participate and then there's the third person there's the person who is embarrassed that they are not hypnotized and they think that the other nine people on the stage are and they don't want to be embarrassed in front of this large audience um who may think that they aren't susceptible or that somehow they did something wrong um so they go along with it anyway knowing that the that the audience will accept them but they are very conscious of the fact that they are doing this they're just so basically they're just pretending to be hypnotized they're pretending because they don't want the embarrassment now the thing is and this is why Darren Brown makes the point that you never can really know who's going to admit one way or another that they were or weren't like would that person then go you know what it turns out I wasn't I was just playing along right or would the person who subconsciously wanted to bark like a dog admit to you you his friend or her friend you know what I totally wanted to be a part of this uh you know you you just can't really know if what you're doing all you know is that for those few minutes that those people are on stage it's entertaining to everybody but it's really hard to actually pinpoint how accurate it is right and my understanding is that everybody has a different um level of suggestibility like people with a high degree of suggestibility maybe more like liky to be um you know um induced into this hypnotic and that's one of the things that yeah that's one of the things that Daren does is he goes and sort of looks for the people that he can control or that he can at least predict their responses to certain things how susceptible would they be to do this or that and he actually chooses his subjects very carefully that way so how is that different than hypnotherapy well hypnotherapy Y is a type of psychotherapy that's used as a treatment for people um actually who are who could be suffering from uh a number of different types of mental illnesses so sometimes hypnotherapy is used for anxiety problems um post-traumatic stress disorder um sometimes even medical disorders um like asthma sometimes cancer um so psychiatric medical physical like H hypnotherapy has actually been used quite a bit and has been studied um I would say not as much as other therapies but certainly enough to show that hypnotherapy can be effective for some of these problems um it's not to say though I do have to add that hypnotherapy is probably um one of the treatments that is I would say the most controversial and it has to actually do with what you said in the sense that there is no neurobiological neurochemical explanation of the hypnotic state so for the very reason you mentioned we have no fundamental understanding of why this therapy works for that very reason a lot of psychologists and mental health clinicians myself included believe that um the component of hypnotherapy that is actually driving the treatment or is responsible for somebody getting better um may not actually be that that hypnotic state it may be um something that's actually more common uh commonly found a psychological state that a lot of us experience like the sense of relaxation um the ability to um to be calm to be in a in a relaxed enough state that you're able to process some of the feelings some of the memories and experiences that you need to in order to recover would you say that the hypnosis then acts a little bit like a placebo and that they believe that they're being that they're getting better or you know I wouldn't call it a placebo because um there's something about the technique that seems to be effective yeah um but I get what you're saying like do they think because they're hypnotized they're getting better um not necessarily and I'm not sure I have an answer to that but uh because we may simply not know but a lot of um a lot of those in in the mental health field believe that it's not that the these patients are in a a special State you know they're they're actually in in a normal psychological State um for people with active imaginations like I said a high degree of suggestibility the motivation to want to change um those are are very normal states and it's perhaps in that state in addition to the ability to use guided imagery relaxation techniques calming techniques breathing techniques with an expert that might allow them to be a able to process um you know their their problems I I would say in a way that they're able to get better so that's that's for me the best explanation of how hypnotherapy works and then we've got what Harvey actually goes in for and and something that seems to be at the height of controversy in in hypnotherapy and that is something like repressed anger a repressed memory or or whatever um talk a little bit about hypnotherapy used to to bring those sorts of things to the surface MH it's interesting because a lot more research has gone into the effectiveness of hypnotherapy to retrieve repressed memories and to help patients to recover um these memories especially if they're uh traumatic you know so think of people um that have been abused that have been sexually abused that have been victimized and they can't remember what happened to them a lot of times hypnotherapists and other experts will try um you know the the hypnotherapy technique to try to retrieve these memories and it's interesting I I'm just going to actually read this from a research study because it's actually now um pretty well known in this field that hypnotherapy actually retrieves false memories yeah more than it retrieves real memories so this sort of goes back to what we were dealing with with uh the episode POV where memory might actually be faulty right so I'll read straight from this article memory retrieval often results in symptomatic Improvement however retrieved memories are likely to be distorted and in some research studies hypnotized subjects were reluctant to admit that their memories were inaccurate even when confronted with clear evidence demonstrating this to be the case you've got someone who knows for a fact uh or or who in their conscious knows that it's false right but aren't willing to admit it because they they believe that they've that that this has come up their conviction has become so strong right yeah um so in this scene we see Harvey's therapist put him under you are now in a deep sleep can you hear me mhm she specifically asks and this is where I think it gets interesting uh mainly because other characters throughout the episode don't require a pendulum to do this um but she specifically asks to speak not to Harvey but to his alter ego big bad Harve right um so she is throwing in the suggestion that repressed anger and guilt from when he was a child um when he supposedly um uh hit this bully who had been picking on him every day at school one day he gets fed up he hits the bully the bully goes down no big deal but then that bully ends up in the hospital Harvey believes that it's because of his punch but really the kid had appendicitis mhm but poor Harvey felt so guilty he never showed his anger again so now you're talking about a guy who has literally pin up every bit of anger he's ever had m um which is impressive for a guy who's a district attorney uh but you know now this anger is coming up in the form of big bad Harve is this sort of thing the kind of thing that you could bring up in a hypnotherapy session and secondly they're suggesting multiple personalities is that something that can happen can you have a fractured identity based on this pent up aggression mhm well you know according to the psychiatrist it was the repressed anger um and the extreme guilt that Harvey felt that created what this psychiatrist calls his illness um so she she believes that his um overwhelming guilt about um the amount of anger that he felt is what is causing this sort of dichotomy this um you know angry rageful monster and this calm um logical thinking compassionate man well you know as we talked about hypnotherapy is the Psychotherapy that that has been used I actually have never used it and I'm not trained in it so I would I would say that it it's outside my expertise to know does that type of technique pull out this identity um but I can answer the some questions about multiple personality disorder which is a an we talked about this actually in the first episode we did um manat right yeah um so multiple personality disorder is an outdated term it's a term that I think most people know about fewer people might know about the actual term that's used now for this um this disorder which is dissociative identity disorder did did is actually another this is this episode is just full of controversial themes because that particular illness is um you know sort of um controversial in the sense that a lot of people in this field are are not quite sure if it's an actual phenomenon right this is the less monster or the Sasquatch of well it's so rarely seen or or said to have been seen that people don't know if it really exists or it it's I would say it's just so rare to find this condition without the symptoms maybe being better explained by another condition or a number of other complex conditions um so again there's just a lot of disagreement with what this might look like it seems to have been sort of a late 20th century fad where suddenly everybody talked about multiple personality disorder and even got it incorrectly identified with like schizophrenia a lot of people said schizophrenia was multiple personality dis for for the record explain oh my go or at least say they're not the same right so so having multiple personalities is not a symptom um as is not characteristic of schizophrenia gotcha so that's you know for the record schizophrenia is not multiple personalities no okay so so it's a very controversial uh diagnosis um what are we dealing with though if if this if this were to exist how would you classify uh did well okay so the reason it was changed to um dissociative identity disorder is that dissociation is a big part of this problem in the sense of um somebody having a disturbance or a fracture in their awareness in their Consciousness um and sometimes that could include their identity altogether so Harvey deciding to to cast his anger aside could physically or rather mentally he could be fracturing it he could be creating a trash bin full of his anger um that is essentially creating another personality there actually is an association between traumatic events and the process of dissociation so if if what he experienced was so um difficult for him to process emotionally he may have have begun this process of um trying to pull him him self his his identity away from that experience and you know at at a deep level you know at at a psych at a psychological level yes that would that would begin to create a fractured sense of self that's certainly characteristic of somebody who does not have a stable solid uh psychological uh State for the most part that could mean that they um do have moments where they're not like themselves like you know you can imagine that people with um difficulty experiencing certain emotions like guilt or anger if they try to avoid them yes they are going to have a lot of difficulty um just functioning emotionally so that that part of this uh this representation of Harvey seems pretty realistic to me right so as I said did again is um famously controversial um but it is in our diagnostic manual as an actual mental health illness and it's characterized by having multiple alter egos or what we can say like personal identities that control an individual's behavior and actions at different times as we talked about in the manbat episode this could mean you know the different personalities having different characteristics Al together like different genders different ages different hair colors different you know you name it like they are they are seen by the individual um or actually they're experienced by the individual as completely different um personas which is why you could have a 50-year-old man also had the personality of a small girl who wears glasses right and you know I know the media has has included this in in a lot of different stories and it is true when um at least you know in research in the books that there are cases where someone has expressed at least two different personalities which is the the minimum you need to to meet this diagnosis up to 100 or more different personalities so again people who suffer from this illness could have a whole number of different personalities um that are distinct from one another so are the personalities typically um different sides of them for instance with Harvey you've got the the handsome charismatic Charming politician and then with big bad Harve you literally have every bit of anger anger so so if there's a part of him that needs to to bring out that side he has a personality for that is that how those personalities tend to work well again from the literature there are some cases where um some alter egos or some altars May Harbor aggressive tendencies so you know one would say that this is the outlet that this person has to express that aggression that hostility so you could be hostile or you could be um I don't know sexually aggressive or you could be I mean you know just different different traits that maybe you as a unit don't feel like you have or or want or you may not have you may not have allowed yourself to express those those emotions and they have to come out well according to the psychiatrist that Harvey Dent is seeing he felt very guilty about his angry feelings so guilty that he hid them deep inside until they became an illness you big bad Harve represent these angry feelings and um you know we can talk about um the validity of did in a second but what I really like about this episode is that the the doctor actually says everyone feels anger and it does no harm as long as it doesn't result in bad behavior that that's such a a great message if you can imagine lots of kids you I saw this as a kid K and I don't quite remember that particular message but now looking back I think it's a valuable message that it's okay to feel upset and angry and you know um hostile and jealous and all these sort of negative emotions but it's how we behave following those feelings that that could make us a quote unquote bad person and then she says that that if Harvey just comes to terms with that maybe big bad Harve will go away mhm right is that the is that the belief with multiple personalities or or did that that that if the patient comes to terms with whatever they they uh whatever fractured the their identity that those other identities might dissipate well the the objective of the treatment is to integrate all of the personalities so that a person becomes whole that they are able to um experience and express all of those different feelings attitudes beliefs values in one person which is fundamentally what therapy is about you know we you and I we don't have multiple personalities to my knowledge but I don't know well but that's that's an interesting question that that's something that I know you and I have talked about in the past and and I think we even brought it up with uh on leather Wings a little bit with manbat isn't one of the problems with disassociative identity disorder is that um the identities aren't necessary necessarily aware of one another or is it that they're aware of one another but can never meet yes the idea is that each personality is unaware of the other to the extent that um you know typically a person with this condition wouldn't readily know that they have this until they saw some of these other secondary signs but yes those fundamentally what they show is realistic so upon finding out that uh that the plan is to sort of wipe out big bad Harve I'm going where Missy if anyone's leaving it's Mr Goody good and he attacks his therapist the same way that he's attacked uh his assistant or his campaign man Carlos um and uh and the thug he attacks her and she of course brings him out of the state with the snap of her finger which is a classic you know when I snap my fingers you will no longer be hypnotized yeah um so go with me on this can we blame the therapist for the existence of twoof faace at this point uh if if if Harvey has never really shown signs of this of this other personality but let's say he's feeling the pressure from his his reelection campaign decides to go to a therapist she puts him under and suddenly brings to the surface this other identity can we lock her up no you can't un you know he's well I mean you said this yourself with the explanation of hypnosis and the same thing is is true for hypnotherapy in the sense that like you you really can't force somebody um to behave a certain way can you suggest that they behave in a certain way sure absolutely and there is this power dynamic between um you know a psychiatrist and their patient there is that that you know um power differential where you know the the patient is susceptible and even vulnerable to Suggestions by the therapist she didn't make him behave that way he he was already a in the state of big bed Harve he is already a hostile aggressive and violent guy so if he's arrested uh and and clearly goes to a psychological examination you couldn't necessarily hold her accountable for for bringing up feelings in a in a a Persona that didn't otherwise exist in a therapy session she's not held liable for anything like that you know I can't say for sure but he seems like a horror movie I know well he I mean but he already had the um the signs of this of this personality there I mean we were seeing his you know visions and his nightmares we were seeing this hostility he we don't know how long he's been going to the to the psychiatrist no you're you're right I'm not sure how long you know it could be that as soon as he started seeing this psychiatrist that these problems became even worse yeah um but nonetheless he assaults her in the session he gets up as big bed Harve and um grabs her he throws something through the window um you know it's a violent scene and she immediately snaps her fingers uh Harvey Dent returns she sits down you know she's clearly you know in distress and relieved that Harvey's back and he looks around and he has no idea that he's done yeah he's he's confused as to you know why the room is in shambles and he realizes what had happened and you know he's he's deeply guilty and and saddened and ashamed that he did this did I do this if you're saying that uh that did is so rare looking at what you've seen just up to this point is he one of those rare cases or is it possible that he still has something else M I mean you know is it that obvious to you well we often say in this field um when you hear hubs think horses not zebras the most is that an American saying like if you're in Africa can you think zebras and not horses like it's absolutely a cultural okay um you know uh phrase um thank you Narnia can we think Minotaur yes okay think of the most common uh most likely diagnosis first and then you know consider consider some other potential diagnosis as well um and you know I I admit to this myself I I tend to to immediately um think of some of the mo more interesting rarer types of of conditions and um you know sometimes those can seem like likely explanations but if the symptoms can be better explained by another condition and that other condition is more likely or is more you know has a higher prevalence we would say we may want to um you know consider that one as our our best um diagnosis so then what would the second diagnosis potentially be well you know let's let's think about what we know even from the beginning of this episode that he has these extreme mood states that he goes from being um calm and collected to in a very short period of time becoming rageful and hostile and violent um one would say that this these aren't discreet um moments these are um very common place for him at least in the first you know this is what we're seeing in this first part of this episode that he is there's this pattern almost of being enraged and going after strangers uh picking fights um you know having um physical altercations assaulting people again that's probably not as as typical for people when we get angry you know what happens when you get angry you you probably try to process the emotion and you may you know some of us may throw something some of us may start yelling no but each and every time Harvey Dent really goes to the extreme Harve take it easy when I first saw his um his Outburst I thought that he may have bipolar disorder bipolar disorder is um it's a mood disorder it's I'm sure as you've heard another term for it is manic depression so it's characterized by having um these these mood States um sometimes called manic episodes where um you know you you have this drastic change in your mood and your behavior a lot of times a manic episode is characterized by feeling you know overjoyed and ecstatic and and over excited to the degree that someone is just behaving in a way that's not like themselves um sometimes being in a manic State means um an extreme feeling of irritability and hostility to the point that you get in these fights with people like it it part of the criteria is actually you know um picking fights with strangers like getting into fights with strangers and we see har we do this so seeing that you know I would say that that might be a a better is it just picking fights or no no no not at all and I'm I'm glad that you asked that because a lot of times people uh unfortunately we see this a lot um with people saying you know oh I feel so bipolar um you know I'm I was feeling okay and then suddenly I'm feeling you know super irritable or super mad all of a sudden so clearly you must be bipol um I don't want to diminish um the reality of and and the um seriousness and challenges of bipolar disorder so I want to be very clear that it's not just you know in a moment feeling kind of down and then suddenly feeling super happy or hearing good news and suddenly being Overjoyed bipolar disorder or these these manic episodes that people experience are usually happening for long periods of time sometimes days where they're in this elevated mood State and they cannot get out of of that experience like they're just so elevated that they are not like themselves and um it's you know while sometimes it can sound exciting and even enjoyable like oh you're just feeling like super happy sometimes it's not enjoyable it can be incred ibly uncomfortable and unbearable and sometimes people feel so agitated and irritated throughout this time that they um you know they really need to get help for it so I don't want to diminish the um you know when I'm when I'm talking about Harvey Dent having these explosive um outbursts um certainly that could happen to folks and they do not have bipolar disorder but I would think when we're given the information that we're given and he's so distraught and having nightmares and he's clearly suffering that would be the place I would go to first just to help illustrate to the audience in the same way that you classified or or that you likened um uh borderline disorder to Glenn closa character in Fatal Attraction in an earlier episode are there any fictional characters that or there any characters or people that you could associate bipolar disorder to give people a a clearer example of what it um yeah there's actually two really good examples of bipolar disorder in um in film and TV one is Homeland with um have we talked about this yet on the show uh no we mentioned it we mentioned it on uh on prevu party podcast so Homeland is a show that um features as its main character this woman Carrie who um you know works for the government it's I think the CIA MH and and um you know it's a really great um portrayal of somebody living with bipolar disorder because it does show the um the episodes that she experiences these manic episodes where you know she will be fine for some time and then she'll experience this extreme mood State that's you know she just is acting in Extreme Ways she's behaving in ways that's not like herself and she's clearly in distress when that happens despite the fact that you see her engaging in behavior that might be pleasurable like you know going on dates and hooking up with guys and um you know but that actually might be a a symptom of absolutely like it's not really pleasurable we might think of it as pleasurable but for her it's a manic right for her she's seeking these pleasurable activities because she's just in in such a an excitable um elated state that that she needs to engage in these behaviors to to feel good um so what's the other example um the other one is Silver Linings Playbook which is a male character with bipolar disorder and he's showing more of the irritable angry you know hostile types of um episodes and um what I like about that film is that again it shows him really trying to deal with with the mood States finding that he's able to recognize when they're happening but he can't control it and I think that's that's the piece here that you know if anything I wanted to emphasize it would be going back to Harvey Dent you know everyone around him is noticing his anger and his you know his behavior and if he truly has bipolar disorder it's incredibly difficult to control that he um might even find himself feeling revved up might find himself you know with the urge to lash out and having you know he may have little control over um you know over those urges and he he's in in an incredible amount of of distress there is it one or the other uh disassociative identity disorder or bipolar or could he have both um certainly it it really never has to be one or the other he could certainly have both and in fact he could have something else along with it I think he's he's um a complex character and it's possible that he's strugg with a number of different conditions um which is why this is just a great a well-written episode and one thing I really wanted to point out about this episode is that at the end of this of this um therapy session the psychiatrist tells Harvey um that essentially he needs to be hospitalized and she really encourages him to admit himself at the inpatient psychiatric ward at County General which um which is actually what you would do at at this point if you have a patient assault you and you know clearly be in in that level of distress and and potentially um you know be threatening either to harm other people or himself at that point you would want them to be hospitalized and unfortunately he says no this is not good for his um public reputation he has this big election coming up so is it something that she can force I mean does she have does she have the power to have him hospitalized sure absolutely you can demonstrate that that your patient is going to be harmful to themselves or to someone else I would point that the broken window uh that she did I mean she had yeah she did but you know there's also this level of collaboration and this level of agreement and and working together toward your goal and at that point he actually says is there anything else we can do and you know if he says no I'm not going to harm myself I I won't harm other people she she can she can agree to to not you know admit him and um she says you know what would would you be interested in increasing our sessions and cutting down on your on your campaign like cutting down the time you spent on your campaign and spending more time in therapy and he agrees to that which again is another good um direction for for this professional um clinician so you know this this is a really nice representation of of how a patient would be treated so he leaves the office we jump to election night it looks like Harvey is going to win by a landslide and he gets a a phone call from his arch nemesis rert Thorne um who's been the villain that he's been going after for so long and uh Thorne has something on him he knows about big bad Harve because his right-hand lady happened to listening outside he knows all about uh Dent's secret identity Candace uh his uh one of his uh lady Thug his Lieutenant of sorts she actually is we see her at the end of his um Psychiatry session we see that Candace is ease dropping outside the door um that's a little weird I don't know how you know at any facility or office how anyone would have allowed that but nonetheless she um actually manages to steal his chart yeah so Thorn's got it uh and he offers a deal uh basically you're in my pocket or I reveal to the world uh that big bad Harve exists and uh Harvey leaves to meet with Thorn Batman is hot on his heels because clearly it's odd that he's leaving what would essentially be his celebration party his his victory party um early and and even says uh you know are you in trouble and he said more than you can possibly imagine uh so Batman follows him thank goodness because we then see Thorne is basically manipulating the situation um and he's working Harvey up to a a nice lather essentially um but this is what I find interesting this is this is actually why I bring up the hypnosis thing again Thorn flips a coin and it's a trigger suddenly Harvey goes from a man who is fighting the big bad Harve Persona from coming to the surface and then calmly becomes big bad har like he that trigger almost as if hypnotic brings him to the surface um and then says well you know the bad news for you is that you're talking to the wrong Harvey and he attacks Thorn and his men Batman interrupts him uh and they have the classic brawl that has to come at the end of one of these episodes um which then ends basically as they are uh as as Thorne is running away from Harvey uh Harve goes after him and um uh one of the other thugs is about to shoot Harve in the back MH Batman stops him but the gun ends up hitting an electrical junk G which then blows up a vat of they always got chemicals and bats of things of course they're in a giant Warehouse full of giant Vats of toxic you know chemical garbage that um you know is is the stuff villains are made of literally um you know and and uh there's a big EXP explosion Harvey is caught in that explosion Harvey no and uh he is then taken immediately to the hospital by Batman we see him bandaged um and uh unfortunately he is told that he may require plastic surgery um that there will clearly be uh physical scarring mhm Bruce however says I'm more worried about the mental scars which you know clearly we are too I guess leading up to this point Harvey Dent was the dominant personality trying to suppress big bad Harve big bad Harve was currently in control at the time of the explosion and now big bat har from this point on seems to be the dominant personality constantly trying to suppress Harvey Dent right as Twoface um but we you know we'll get into that as we go into a second part but uh later on the bandages are removed in a scene that is a little too closely resembling the 1989 Tim Burton Batman where the Joker uh Jack Napier is all under bandages and you got the plastic surgon and says you have to understand look what I have to work with um that was great and then uh thank you and then uh and then you know the Joker's like Mir and you know looks in the mirror and and the only difference between the two scenes is that besides the fact that Harvey's in a legit hospital um is the fact that uh while Joker laughs at the image in the mirror um Harvey screams and runs out of the room uh with lightning behind him uh just as Grace is walking up to visit with a flower yeah I mean the the animators and and the writers do this really nice job of of um portraying his his disfigurement and the horror of it and so what what we see is he runs out of his um hospital room and Grace his fiance is actually approaching she's walking through the hallway with flowers and she's you know clearly there to visit him and she comes across him in this dark Corridor with this giant window and lightning hits and and it's it's interesting because she sees him and his good face or his his um handsome handsome face is facing her you know that that side of his face is is toward her and then as the lightning hits he turns to look at her and and she sees his disfigurement and you know is horrified and um it's like I said it's it's such a powerful um jolting scene that moment where we see to face as to face and that's actually where the episode ends is Harvey Dent The Incredible Hulk of the DC Universe he might be although does Bruce Banner um have a conscious awareness of the Hulk you know he might he's aware of him and he certainly tries to suppress him right but when he's the Hulk is he aware of Bruce Banner like does he have di some of the writers treat it differently sometimes sometimes he is aware and sometimes he wakes up and he's got shredded purple pants and right lots of Destruction around him right so maybe he is well maybe we'll do a crossover episode one day or not okay so um we have covered a lot of ground here there's been a lot of psychological education um going down um right now the it's the end of part one and we're a little on the fence is he is he did is is he uh bipolar disorder is he what's going on um will discard face traumatize him further will it lock in Big Bad Harve as the dominant personality um we're we are honestly going to cover that next week um we're also going to cover your questions we asked on Twitter uh and on Facebook for you the audience to submit your questions about Twoface well now we're here now we're at Twoface so um he now exists we can Now cover those questions we're going to do that next week if you're interested in learning more about bipolar disorder or associative identity disorder look up the National Alliance on Mental Illness as well as the National Institute of Mental Health Online that um both those websites have a lot of um descriptions and resources um that are very helpful to explain U much more in depth about some of the things that we talked about today awesome so until next week I'm Ward I'm Dr Andrea dendi and we are the Arkham [Music] sessions [Music]