Transcript for:
Exploring Eurocentrism in Historical Narratives

Thank you very much, Thank you very much, Matthew, Matthew, for your introduction and also for organizing this very fine event. for your introduction and also for organizing this very fine event. I have just one objective in this presentation. I have just one objective in this presentation. It's 45 minutes, 45 minutes, yes Matthew?

yes, Matthew? 45 minutes for the whole session. 45 minutes for the whole session. I just have one objective. I just have one objective.

I want to use the case of history writing, I want to use the case of history writing, the example of history writing and historiography on raffles to illustrate a larger problem of... the example of history writing and historiography on raffles to illustrate a larger problem of the discipline of history. The discipline of history. And that problem is the Eurocentric...

And that problem is the Eurocentric nature of history. of history, The the Eurocentric way in which we understand history. Eurocentric way in which we understand history. This is what I want to do.

This is what I want to do. Now, Now, just by way of introduction, just by way of introduction... About 600 years ago, about 600 years ago, there was an Arab historian or philosopher of history by the name of there was an Arab historian, or philosopher of history by the name of Abdurrahman Ibn Khaldun.

Abdurrahman ibn Khaldun. He made a distinction between the zahir and batin of history. He made a distinction between the zahir and batin. history.

I'll say what that means. I'll say what that means. This zahir-batin, This zahir batin, it's a dichotomy.

it's a dichotomy. There is a zahir and there is the batin. There is a zahir and there is the batin. Now in Islamic thought, Now, in Islamic thought, the zahir and batin could refer to the exoteric and the esoteric. the zahir and batin could refer to the exoteric and the esoteric.

Thank you. It could also refer to the intentional and the unintentional. It could also refer to the intentional and the unintentional. It could also refer to appearance versus reality. It could also refer to appearance versus reality.

But the way that Ibn Khaldun used it, But the way that Ibn Khaldun uses it, he uses did, he was referring to the zahir and the batin of history. he was referring to the zahir and the batin of history. So the zahir of history are the reported facts, So the zahir of history are the reported facts, right? right?

The surface, the surface level. The surface level. But he said that the proper study of history has to be the study of the underlying reality.

But he said that the proper study of history has to be the study of the underlying reality. the hidden causes, The hidden causes, the hidden effects of the facts that we know. the hidden effects of the facts that we know.

But But the problem is, But the problem is underlying the facts are often biases, underlying the facts are often biases, prejudices, prejudices, value judgments, value judgments, and so on and so forth. and so on and so forth. So the function of history, So the function of history, according to Ibn Khaldun, according to Ibn Khaldun, is supposed to be... is supposed to be...

So history is a science that reveals that which is hidden, So history is a science that reveals that which is hidden. right? It reveals that which is hidden. It reveals that which is hidden. It should look for the objective causes and effects of history, It should look for the objective causes and effects of history as well as the subjective...

as well as the subjective... interests, interests, biases, biases, prejudices, prejudices, and value judgments that historians might make as they report the facts. and value judgments that historians might make as they report the facts.

So, So, when it comes to the study of Raffles, when it comes to the study of raffles, Matthew, Matthew, I think, I think, had mentioned a book that my father had written, had mentioned a book that my father had written, the late Professor Said Hussein Alatas, the late Professor Said Hussain Alatas, a book called a book called Thomas Stamford Raffles, Former Stanford Raffles, Scheme of the Law. is a schema. or reformer.

or reformer. Now, Now, what my father noted was the ethnic bias of British historians and biographers in their treatment of Raffles. what my father noted was the ethnic bias of British historians and biographers in their treatment of Raffles. In their bid to present Raffles as a progressive statesman and humanitarian reformer, In their bid to present Raffles as a progressive statesman and humanitarian reformer, there is a virtual absence of a critical treatment of Raffles in terms of his ethnically prejudiced views of the different Asian communities in Singapore and in the region.

there is a virtual absence of a critical treatment of Raffles in terms of his ethnically prejudiced views of the different Asian communities in Singapore and in the region. his involvement in an event which came to be known as the massacre of his involvement in an event which came to be known as the massacre of Palembang, the corruption case known as the Banjarmasin affair or Banjarmasin enormity, Palembang the corruption case known as the Banjarmasin affair or Banjarmasin enormity and other questionable acts which should be put in the proper context of British imperialism and the ideology of colonial capitalism. and other questionable acts which should be put in the proper context of British imperialism and the ideology of colonial capitalism.

Now, Now so behind these so-called facts so behind these so-called facts, the so-called facts... of the humanitarian nature of raffles, of the humanitarian nature of raffles, for example, for example, behind these facts is a kind of silencing in which in the textbooks and much of particularly British writing on raffles, behind these facts is a kind of silencing in which in the textbooks and much of particularly British writing on raffles, these questionable acts, these questionable acts, abuses of power, abuses of power, and many other issues such as the... and many other issues such as the trade in opium, The trade in opium, for example, for example, are silenced.

are silenced. Now, Now, I'm not going to... I'm not going to really go into the details because these are all, going to really go into the details because these are all, I think, I think, by now known.

by now known. Many people have written about them. Many people have written about them. the Banjarmasin affair, the Banjarmasin affair, the massacre of Palembang, the massacre of Palembang and so on and so forth. and so on and so forth.

Let me just say that the relative neglect of these problematic aspects of raffles Let me just say that the relative neglect of these problematic aspects of Raffles has of course a particular function. has, of course, a particular function. Raffles'supporters and admirers have generally remained silent about his questionable views and activities.

Raffles'supporters and admirers have generally remained silent about his questionable views and activities. So the purpose of the book... So the purpose of the book... Stanford Raffles by Said Hussain Alatas was to recall, Stanford Raffles by Said Hussain Al-Attas was to recall, was to call for a balanced approach that on the one hand, was to call for a balanced approach that on the one hand, recognize his role in the founding of Singapore as a trading settlement, recognized his role in the founding of Singapore as a trading settlement, but which also provides an accurate assessment. but which also provides an accurate assessment of his political philosophy and his conduct in Singapore as well as in Java when he was lieutenant governor for a while.

of his political philosophy and his conduct in Singapore as well as in Java when he was lieutenant governor for a while. And that this approach should not shy away from exposing his faults and hypocrisy as well as his possible involvement in the crimes of the powerful. And that this approach should not shy away from exposing his faults and hypocrisy as well as his possible involvement in the crimes of the powerful.

Now this I think is an interesting point that... Now this I think is an interesting point that... Alata's work on raffles can be viewed as a discussion of criminology in the decolonial mode. Alata's work on Raffles can be viewed as a discussion of criminology in the decolonial mode. Criminology in the mode of decolonizing knowledge.

Criminology in the mode of decolonizing knowledge. To the extent that criminology is a field, To the extent that criminology is a field, to a certain extent the field of criminology is... to a certain extent the field of criminology is... Eurocentric, Eurocentric, and I'll explain what I mean by that.

and I'll explain what I mean by that. Its research agenda is such that many topics and themes of great relevance to us in the Global South or in the Third World are omitted. Its research agenda is such that many topics and themes of great relevance to us in the Global South or in the Third World are omitted. One such theme is colonization. One such theme is colonization.

mainstream criminology does not take into account the role of colonialism in the interplay between the past and contemporary globalization, Mainstream criminology does not take into account the role of colonialism in the interplay between the past and contemporary globalization, global inequality and insecurity. global inequality and insecurity. There is a silencing that goes on in northern theory for which the colonial and coloniality are often deemed irrelevant. There is a silencing that goes on in northern theory for which the colonial and coloniality are often deemed irrelevant. Missing or omitted is empire and the role of European capitalism in state-founded Missing or omitted is empire and the role of European capitalism in state government.

formation and the development of ideas and institutions, formation and the development of ideas and institutions, often accompanied by violence and criminal behavior of the colonial state, often accompanied by violence and criminal behavior of the colonial state, but also the ideological criminalization of anti-colonial resistance. but also the ideological criminalization of anti-colonial resistance. So, So, for example, for example, anti-colonial resistance would often be referred to as criminal acts, anti-colonial resistance would often be referred to as criminal acts, criminalizing, criminalizing, in fact, in fact, what were legitimate struggles against the colonial state.

what were legitimate struggles against the colonial state. Now, Now, another... another... Another tendency of mainstream criminology is to focus on low-level crimes, Another tendency of mainstream criminology is to focus on low-level crimes, on street crime, on street crime, on everyday crime, on everyday crime, or on the crimes of the powerless.

or on the crimes of the powerless. The study, The study, instead of looking at the crimes of the powerful, instead of looking at the crimes of the powerful, the study of raffles is at one and the same time a study of the crimes of the powerful as well as the criminality of the colonial state. the study of Raffles is at one and the same time a study of the crimes of the powerful as well as the criminality of the colonial states. it's interesting the statue there is it?

it's interesting the statue is there the statue is there but if Rackles was alive today he would probably be convicted as a drug pusher the statue is there but if Raffles was alive today he would probably be convicted as a drug pusher so So how do we understand that? So how do we understand that? A man who possibly involved in one of the largest corruption cases of that time, A man who possibly involved in one of the largest corruption cases of that time, the Banjarmasin affair, the Banjarmasin affair, a drug pusher who earned an income percentage, a drug pusher who earned...

an income percentage, I think it was 5% from the opium trade. I think it was 5% from the opium trade. The statue is out there, The statue is out there.

But others who have done similar things that he used to do have been sentenced to death. but others who have done similar things that he used to do have been sentenced to death. So, So, now, now, what does the study of Raffles, what does the study of Raffles, the way in which Raffles has been studied, the way in which Raffles has been studied, the silencing about his criminality, the silencing about his criminality, his misdeeds... misdeeds... what does it reveal about the way in which we study history, What does it reveal about the way in which we study history, the way in which we understand history in general?

the way in which we understand history in general? What I want to suggest is that it is a case of a larger problem of the Eurocentric manner in which we understand history. What I want to suggest is that it is a case of a larger problem of the Eurocentric manner in which we understand history.

Now, Now, of course, of course, in the specific case of Raffles, in the specific case of Raffles, Raffles... that There is generally the failure to evaluate his misdeeds in the context of the overall worldview of colonial capitalism, There is generally the failure to evaluate his misdeeds in the context of the overall worldview of colonial capitalism, the ideology of imperialism, the ideology of imperialism and so on. and so on.

And here you have a kind of silencing. And here you have a kind of silencing. Now, Now, the larger context within which this kind of silencing takes place is a Eurocentric reading of history.

the larger context within which this kind of silencing takes place is a Eurocentric reading of history. Now, Now, it's sometimes difficult to understand that the facts that have been reported to us about history are not merely facts. it's a bit sometimes difficult to understand that the facts that have been reported to us about history are not merely facts.

But these facts, But these facts, what appear to be facts, what appear to be facts, are actually interpretations that are based on specific interests, are actually interpretations that are based on specific interests, specific biases, specific biases, specific prejudices. specific prejudices. Let me just give you a moment. Let me just give you a couple of examples from history.

you a couple of examples from history. Everybody knows about the discovery of America by Christopher Columbus. Everybody knows about the discovery of America by Christopher Columbus. Literally the whole world takes this as an empirical historical fact that Literally the whole world takes this as an empirical historical fact that America was discovered in 1492. America was discovered in 1492. What a lot of people don't think about is that this was not a discovery of humanity of America, What a lot of people don't think about is that this was not a discovery of humanity.

of America, although it is presented in this way. although it is presented in this way. This was specifically a European discovery of America because people before Christopher Columbus knew of America and more importantly, This was specifically a European discovery of America because people before Christopher Columbus knew of America and more importantly there were already people living in America long before there were already people living in America long before Columbus arrived there. Columbus arrived there.

So what we refer to as Eurocentrism here is the Europeans generalizing their own experience as a universal truth. So what we refer to as Eurocentrism here is the Europeans generalizing their own experience as a universal truth. This was actually a European discovery of America.

This was actually a European discovery of America. And even then it's not certain because there's some speculation that suggests that the Vikings had gone to America centuries before Columbus. And even then it's not certain because there's some speculation that suggests that the Vikings had gone to America centuries before Columbus. But if Columbus was the first, But if Columbus was the first, he was the first European.

he was the first European. So it should be presented that way. So it should be presented that way. Now... Now, 1492 Christopher Columbus went to America.

1492, Christopher Columbus went to America. 1497, 1497, and by the way, and by the way, when he went to America, when he went to America, he thought that he had arrived in India. he thought that he had arrived in India.

Although he had maps made by the Arabs and the Chinese, Although he had maps made by the Arabs and the Chinese, but I think he misread the maps. but I think he misread the maps. In 1497 Vasco da Gama found the route via the Cape to India, In 1497, Vasco da Gama found the route via the Cape to India, so that problem was corrected. so that problem was corrected. In In Ferdinand Magellan arrives in Mactan, Ferdinand Magellan, circum arrives in Mactan, in what was later to be called the Philippines, in what was later to be called the Philippines, and in doing so was probably the first to circumnavigate the globe.

and in doing so was probably the first to circumnavigate the globe. Now, the discovery of America and voyages of discovery in between Vasco da Gama, The discovery of America and voyages of discovery in between Vasco da Gama, Magellan's circumnavigation of the globe are regarded as great human feats and are celebrated in the world. Magellan's circumnavigation of the globe, are regarded as great human feats. and are celebrated in the world, right?

But again, But again, look at it from a different perspective, look at it from a different perspective, from a non-Eurocentric perspective. from a non-Eurocentric perspective. From the point of view of the Europeans, From the point of view of the Europeans, Columbus, Columbus, Vasco da Gama, Vasco da Gama, Magellan did great things for Europe.

Magellan did great things for Europe. From the perspective of many people in Asia, From the perspective of many people in Asia, Africa and Latin America, Africa and Latin America, these voyages of discovery were... these voyages of discovery were disasters.

disasters. Why? Why?

Because between the period 1492 and 1521, Because between the period 1492 and 1521, when when Magellan arrived in the Philippines, Magellan arrived in the Philippines, during those 30 years, during those 30 years, that is when the Europeans knew the entire world. that is when the Europeans knew the entire world. and therefore could colonize almost the entire world.

And therefore... could colonize almost the entire world. So from the point of view of an indigenous person in Africa, So from the point of view of an indigenous person in Africa or in India or in Southeast Asia, or in India, or in Southeast Asia, these were terrible events. these were terrible events.

So, So the fact... the fact... The fact is Magellan went around the world. The fact is Magellan went around the world.

The fact is The fact is Columbus discovered a landmass which was later to be called America, Columbus discovered a landmass which was later to be called America, the Americas. the Americas. But the meaning of these facts, But the meaning of these facts, the meaning that these facts had for people differs depending on your perspective, the meaning that these facts had for people differs.

depending on your perspective, depending on your point of view, depending on your point of view, depending on your experience. depending on your experience. And, And, you know, you know, there are many other examples of how history writing is Eurocentric. there are many other examples of how history writing is...

It's Eurocentric. We take things as facts, We take things as facts, but they are not facts. but they are not facts.

For example, For example, we say in this part of the world, we say in this part of the world, religion... The religion of the people before Islam came was Hinduism. the religion of the people before Islam came was Hinduism.

You've heard that? You've heard that? And we speak about a Hindu And we speak about a Hindu-Buddhist religion.

Buddhist religion. But this is actually utter nonsense. But this is actually utter nonsense. Because Because 500 years ago, 500 years ago, a thousand years ago, a thousand years ago, there was no such thing as a religion called Hinduism.

there was no such thing as a religion called Hinduism. The very term Hinduism is an Orientalist creation. The very term Hinduism is a...

you know, an Orientalist creation. There was no religion called... There was no religion called Hinduism. First of all, First of all, there was no single unitary religion. there was no single unitary religion by any name, By any name, including whether Hinduism or any other name, including whether Hinduism or any other name.

there was no unitary religion. There was no unitary religion. When the Europeans centuries ago arrived in India, When the Europeans centuries ago arrived in India, they could recognize they could recognize Muslims. Muslims, Jews and Christians in India. Jews and Christians in India.

Those who are not Jews, Those who are not Jews, Muslims and Christians, Muslims and Christians, the Europeans assumed belonged to a single religion. the Europeans assumed belonged to a single religion. And it's the Europeans that gave the name Hinduism to these people.

And it's the Europeans that gave the name Hinduism to these people. When the Dutch came to When the Dutch came to Southeast Asia, Southeast Asia... they saw people who worshipped similar deities as those in... They saw people who worship similar deities as those in India, in India, for example, for example, Vishnu and Shiva.

Vishnu and Shiva. And they assume that these people belong to a religion called Hinduism. And they assumed that these people belonged to a religion called Hinduism. But these are colonial constructions.

But these are colonial constructions. They don't accord with the actual reality, They don't accord with the actual reality, with the actual experience and understanding of the people that they're calling with the actual experience and understanding of the people that they're calling Hindus. So here's another example of a so-called fact that is not an historical fact, Hindus.

So here's another example of a so-called fact that is not an historical fact, but rather a creation of the European imagination. but rather a creation of the European imagination. Professor Kwa mentioned the Orang Laut, Professor Kwa mentioned the Orang Laut, the so-called sea nomads. the so-called sea nomads. In the study of the Orang Laut, the so-called sea nomads, In the study of the political economic systems of the Malay world in the past, they were called the Orang Laut.

of the political economic systems of the Malay world in the past, in the pre-colonial period. in the pre-colonial period, We are also influenced by Eurocentric ideas in the sense that we are also influenced by Eurocentric ideas in the sense that Eurocentric approach tends to be terra-centric. Eurocentric approach tends to be terra-centric.

Land, Land, how do you say it, how do you say it? you know, You know, the bias is towards land. the bias is towards land. So the water, So the water, the sea, the sea, is merely seen as a means of communication. is merely seen as a means of...

of communication. So we tend not to try to understand the sea as a political economic system unto itself. So we tend not to try to understand the sea as a political economic system unto itself, When actually we can speak of an aquatic nomadic economic system or mode of production. when actually we can speak of an aquatic, nomadic economic system or mode of production.

In many ways similar to desert political economic systems where you have nomads but on land. In many ways similar to desert. Nomadic desert political economic systems, where you have nomads but on land.

In the sea, In the sea you have nomads who are nomads but on land. you have nomads who live on the sea. who live on the sea, they are not just people who travel, They're not just people who travel and traverse the sea on their boats, traverse the sea on their boats but they actually live on the sea and it constituted a kind of political economic system that of course had very intimate relations with the land. but they actually live on the sea. And it constituted a kind of political economic system that, of course, had very intimate relations with the land.

But we tend not to look at history in that way because the historical studies originate from But we tend not to look at history in that way because... The historical studies originate from European minds who are thinking in a terror-centric way. European minds who are thinking more in terms of thinking in a teracentric way. My last example.

My last example. In the social sciences in Singapore, in the social sciences in Singapore, in Malaya, in Malaya, also in Indonesia, also in Indonesia, unlike unlike European social sciences, European social sciences, we tend not to do class analysis. we tend not to do class analysis.

We tend not to study societies. We tend not to study societies, whether the past or contemporary societies, whether the past or contemporary societies, in terms of class differences. in terms of class differences.

We study the societies more in terms of ethnic or religious differences. We study the societies more in terms of ethnic or religious differences. It's not because class doesn't exist. It's not because class doesn't exist.

It does exist. It does exist. But the problem is the legacy of colonialism and Eurocentric scholarship. But the problem is the legacy of colonialism and Eurocentric scholarship. When the British and the Dutch began to study this part of the world during the colonial period, When the British and the Dutch began to study this part of the world during the colonial period, they stressed on the ethnic as opposed to the class nature of our society.

they stressed on the... Ethnic as opposed to the class nature of our society. The famous work in this respect is The famous work in this respect is Furnival, who studied what he called the plural society.

Furnival, who studied what he called the plural society. So in his analysis, So in his analysis, he says... the societies of the Malay world, the societies of the Malay world, Malaysia, Malaysia, Indonesia and so on, Indonesia and so on, were simply societies divided along ethnic lines, were simply societies divided along ethnic lines, separate but coexisting. separate but coexisting. And they live separately but they come together in the marketplace.

And they live separately but they come together in the marketplace. This is what he called the plural society. This is what he called the plural society.

Now, Now, I agree that there was this element of pluralism in this part of the world, I agree that there was this element of pluralism in this part of the world. but this is not to say that people were not stratified or divided along class lines as well, But this is not to say that people were not stratified or divided along class lines as well, but along the lines of... along the lines of occupation, occupation, access to resources, access to resources. And it's not to say that power differentials were not based on class differences. and it's not to say that power differentials were not based on class differences.

But this But this Europe-centered perspective, Europe-centered perspective that right, Eastern societies, Eastern society... so-called Eastern societies are thoroughly different from so-called Eastern societies are thoroughly different from European societies in that they are class, European societies in that they are class, they are not class-based, they are not class-based, they are ethnic-based, they are ethnic-based, has affected us until today. has affected us until today.

So much so that we still think in mainly ethnic terms rather than... So much so that we still think in mainly ethnic terms rather than class terms. class terms.

We vote along ethnic terms rather than class terms. We vote along ethnic terms rather than class terms. The successive Malaysian politicians have been able to convince the people that their enemies is the other ethnic group rather than the exploiting classes. The successive Malaysian politicians have been able to convince the people that their enemies is the other ethnic group, rather than the exploiting classes. So this is also a legacy.

So this is also a legacy. Now, This problem of Eurocentrism in history was recognized by the This problem of Eurocentrism in history was recognized by the European scholars, European scholars, particularly beginning with the Dutch scholars in the late particularly beginning with the Dutch scholars in the late 1940s and then followed by the British scholars. 1940s and then followed by the English, the British scholars. But the discussion was for decades misled, But the discussion was, for decades, misled, misguided and confusing.

misguided and confusing. When the Dutch and the British scholars spoke about, When the Dutch and the British scholars spoke about, criticized the problem of criticised the problem of Eurocentric writing of Eurocentric writing of Malay and Indonesian history, Malay and Indonesian history, they tended to equate they tended to equate Eurocentric history with a European perspective, Eurocentric history with a European perspective, which is very problematic. which is very problematic.

Because we need to understand that the problem is not a European perspective. Because we need to understand that the problem is not a European perspective. The problem is a Eurocentric perspective. The problem is a Eurocentric perspective.

Because when we speak about a Eurocentric perspective, Because when we speak about a Eurocentric perspective... we are... talking about bias, talking about bias, distortions.

distortions. For example, For example, the idea that there was a religion called Hinduism. the idea that there was a religion called Hinduism.

We're talking about a distortion. We're talking about a distortion. Or when there is a silencing in the school textbooks, Or when there is a silencing of in the school textbooks silencing of the misdeeds of Raffles that is a distortion or it's a silencing so these are problems but an historical account by Europeans about certain events based on their interests and silencing of the misdeeds of Raffles, that is a distortion or it's a silencing. These are problems. An historical account by Europeans about certain events that based on their interests and their concerns is perfectly legitimate.

their concerns is perfectly legitimate every community, Every community, every group would provide an historical account based on their interests and their concerns, every group would provide an historical account based on their interests and their concerns which is legitimate and we need when which is legitimate. And when you write about history, when you write about history, it is perfectly legitimate to have different vantage points from which you talk about any one particular event. it is perfectly legitimate to have different vantage points from which you talk about any one particular event. So, So, the historian the historian John Bastin, John Weston... You have sort of two extremes.

you have sort of two extremes. John Bastin, John Bastin, who was at the who was at the University of Malaya in the University of Malaya in the 50s, he suggested that since everybody has been colonized and studied, 50s, he suggested that since everybody has been colonized and studies the Western discipline of history, the western discipline of history it is impossible to have any understanding of history apart from a Eurocentric one right now this would suggest that no, it is impossible to have... any understanding of history apart from a Eurocentric one.

Now, this would suggest that there cannot be a critical study of Raffles. there cannot be be a critical study of Raffles, they can only be the one that is presented by the British, There can only be the one that was presented by the British, the one that silences the one that silences Raffles'misdeeds and his criminality and so on. Raffles'misdeeds and his criminality and so on.

So this is clearly a very difficult position to accept. So this is clearly a very difficult position to accept, Especially, especially... And I wonder why Bastien thought in such a manner when alternative, and I wonder why Bastien thought in such a manner when alternative, even anti-colonial histories were available to him. even anti-colonial histories were available to him.

For example, For example, he would have known of the works of Jose Rizal, he would have known of the works of José Rizal. the Filipino anti-colonial scholar, Filipino anticolonial scholar whose works involved reconstruction of Filipino history away from a colonial perspective. whose works involved reconstruction of Filipino history away from a colonial perspective. Bastien would also have known of the work of Bastien would also have known of the work of... Edward Edward Dawes-Decker, otherwise known as Multatuli, Dawes-Decker, otherwise known as Multatuli, who was writing in the 19th century, who was writing in the 19th century, a colonial era, a colonial era, a colonial official, a colonial...

...of official and also a novelist who wrote, and also a novelist, who wrote, I wouldn't say that he was anti-colonial, I wouldn't say that he was anti-colonial, he was not against colonialism per se, not against colonialism per se, but he wrote a very critical novel which was a very critical piece against the abuses of the colonial state in but he wrote a very critical novel, which was a very critical piece. against the abuses of the colonial state in Java, particularly in the context of the coffee trade. Java. particularly in the context of the coffee trade. So, So clearly anti-colonial perspectives in the writing of history were available.

clearly, anti-colonial perspectives in the writing of history were available. Now the historian John Smale, Now, the historian John Smale, in critiquing... in critiquing Bastin suggests that we ought to be critical of Eurocentric history and we ought to move to an Asian-centric history.

Bastien, suggests that we ought to have... We ought to be critical of Eurocentric history and we ought to move to an Asian-centric history. But Smale is not at all clear about what is meant by Smale is not at all clear. about what is meant by Eurocentric and Asian-centric history.

Eurocentric and Asian-centric history. He seems to equate He seems to equate Eurocentric with a European perspective and Asian-centric with an Asian perspective. Eurocentric with the European perspective and Asian-centric with an Asian perspective. So what do we mean by perspective and what do we mean by...

So what do we mean by perspective and what do we mean by... What do we mean by a perspective? What do we mean by a perspective? When you say a European perspective, When you say a European perspective, do you mean simply a perspective from the vantage point of being a European? do you mean simply a perspective from the vantage point of being a European?

Or do we mean something more than that? Or do we mean something more than that? A distortion or a silencing, Distortion or silencing, a problematic construction, a problematic construction, such as claiming that there was a religion called Hinduism, such as claiming that there was a religion called Hinduism, and so on and so forth, and so on and so forth, or denigrating views about the natives. or denigrating views about the natives.

these are not worked out. these are not worked out so this is something I think distinctive about history history writing in Singapore and Malaysia to some extent Indonesia as well that we have not worked out these historiographical problems So this is something I think distinctive about history history writing in Singapore and Malaysia to some extent Indonesia as well that we have not worked out this history historiographical problems. And in this sense, And in this sense, history as a discipline, history as a discipline, I think, I think, is quite backward in comparison to history of the Middle East or Latin American history or even is quite backward in comparison to history of the Middle East or Latin American history or even African history.

African history. Now, Now, to conclude, to conclude, in most countries... in most countries...

The idea of nominating an imperialist as the founder of a newly independent state would have been considered outrageous and most definitely reactionary. The idea of nominating an imperialist as the founder of a newly independent state would have been considered outrageous and most definitely reactionary. Now, Now these are not my words, these are not my words. These are the words of the late S. these are the words of the late...

S Rajaratnam, Rajaratnam, who was the foreign minister of who was the Foreign Minister of Singapore in the Singapore in the 1970s. 1970s. Now...

Now, when the book, When the book, my father's book, my father's book, Thomas Stamford Raffles, appeared in 1971, the dominant view in Singapore was that it was inadvisable to search for a golden past in the pre-colonial era, The dominant view in Singapore was that it was inadvisable to search for a golden past in the pre-colonial era, as history prior to as history prior to 1819 was one of ancestral ghosts and should be forgotten. 1819 was one of the most important. of ancestral ghosts and should be forgotten.

This was the view of the historian This was the view of the historian Tregoning, who was formerly Tregoning, who was formerly Raffles Professor of History at the University of Singapore. Raffles'professor of history at the University of Singapore. So he said that modern Singapore began in 1819. So he said that modern Singapore began in 1819, Nothing that occurred on the island prior to this has particular relevance to an understanding of the contemporary scene.

nothing that occurred on the island prior to this has particular relevance to an understanding of the contemporary scene, It is of antiquarian interest only. it is of antiquarian interest only. So history began after 1819 and Raffles, So history began after 1819 and Raffles as the prime minister of Singapore as the prime mover, prime mover was elevated to what was elevated to what Professor Kwa refers to as the great man of history, Professor Kua refers to as the great man of history.

not only by colonial historians, Not only by colonial historians, but also officially by the post-colonial state. but also officially by the post-colonial... state.

Now the coloniality of such a perspective is all the more glaring when we take into consideration the growing critical literature on colonialism in the form of post-colonial theory and decolonial thought. Now, the coloniality of such a perspective is all the more glaring when we take into consideration the growing critical literature on colonialism in the form of post-colonial theory and decolonial thought. Nevertheless, Nevertheless, scholarship on Singapore history has progressed and we've heard from scholarship on Singapore history has progressed.

And we've heard from Professor Kwa's presentation about the archaeological findings and therefore Professor Kwa's presentation about the archaeological findings and therefore confirmation that Singapore, confirmation that Singapore, at least in the 14th century, at least in the 14th century, was a thriving settlement. was a thriving settlement. Now, Now, let me just also mention that let me just also mention that Professor Kwa, Professor Kwa, in his writing, in his writing, has noted perceptibly that the idea of 1819 as the beginning of Singapore's history presents three categories of historiographical problems. has noted perceptibly that the idea of 1890 as the beginning of Singapore's history presents three categories of historiographical problems.

One... One problem is attributing to Raffles the foreknowledge to recognise the strategic importance of Singapore, problem is attributing to Raffles the foreknowledge to recognise the strategic importance of Singapore, resulting in his elevation to a great man of history and the subsequent focus on generations of great men. resulting in his elevation to a great man of history and the subsequent focus on generations of great men.

So history here is explained through the impact of great men. So history here is explained through... through the impact of great men.

The second category of problems is that it possibly aggravated Singapore's post-colonial 1965 crisis. The second category of problems is that it possibly aggravated Singapore's post-war history. colonial 1965, post-1965 identity crisis by depriving it of its origins as a 14th century post-1965 identity crisis by depriving it of its origins as a 14th century Malay state.

Malay state. The third category of problems is that it distorts our perspective on the role of the Malay Sultans and their courts in Singapore, The third category of problems is that it distorts our perspective on the role of the Malay Sultans and their courts in Singapore, suggesting that they were not active agents or active subjects in their own history. suggesting that they were not active agents or active subjects in their own history. Now, Now, to these three categories, to these three categories, I may add a fourth category.

I may add... The fourth category, That is our attitude towards colonialism. that is our attitude towards colonialism. To deal with, To deal with, you know, you know, in Singapore particularly, in Singapore particularly, the idea that colonialism was, the idea that colonialism was, in comparison to India or other places, in comparison to India or other places, that colonialism was somewhat benign. that colonialism was somewhat benign, right?

Which I think is a very strange idea to have, Which I think is a very strange idea to have, but it's something that Singaporeans grew up with. but it's something that Singaporeans grew up with. So to deal with such historiographical problems means to advance an anti-colonial or post-colonial or decolonial approach. So to deal with such historiographical problems, ...problems means to advance an anti-colonial or post-colonial or decolonial history. colonial history.

I leave it to my colleague Peter Boschberg to say whether his department is up to the challenge. I'll leave it to my colleague Peter Boschberg to say whether his department is up to the challenge. So, So to note that Raffles was a product of his time and was informed by the dominant ideology of colonial capitalism of his age. to note that Raffles was a product of his time and was informed by the dominant ideology of colonial capitalism of his age is to state the obvious.

is to state the obvious. In our assessment of him today, In our assessment of him today though, though, that recognition cannot be an excuse to allow the embarrassing facts of the colonial adventure to disappear. that recognition cannot be an excuse to allow the embarrassing facts of the colonial adventure to disappear.

Thank you. Thank you. Now we'll have some time for questions, so just please raise your hand.

Hi, I'm Cynthia B. Hofer. I want to point out there is a redeeming feature of I want to point out that it's a redeeming feature of Matthews. Raffles.

I mean, I mean, he started the Colonial Museum, he started the colonial music, didn't he? I mean, especially for collecting objects and wanting to read and inherit the colonial music that are existing today. through his passion for collecting objects, botany, we have inherited colonial museums that are existing today.

What do you think? What do you think? You see, You see, what you said is similar to what many people in Malaysia say, what you said is similar to what many people in Malaysia say, that the British built railway lines and we benefit from that. that the British built... railway lines and we benefit from that.

Of course, Of course, we do benefit from the railway lines, we do benefit from the railway lines, but we need to understand all of this in perspective. but we need to understand all of this in perspective. They built railway lines not to benefit the local population, They built railway lines not to benefit the local population.

but to benefit colonial trade, but to benefit colonial trade. right? So why did the Europeans set up museums wherever they were?

So why did the Europeans set up museums wherever they were? The larger context museums were part of the enterprise... The larger context, museums were part of the... enterprise of physical anthropology.

enterprise of physical anthropology. The enterprise of physical anthropology as it emerged in the 19th century was to a great extent, The enterprise of physical anthropology as it emerged in the 19th century was to a great extent, to a great extent, to a great extent, it was to prove the genetic, it was to prove the genetic, biological inferiority of non-white people. biological inferiority of non-white people. And initially museums were set up to house artifacts, And initially museums were set up to house artifacts, including bones, including bones, skulls.

skulls. There was a field called craniology which was to study the skulls of... There's a field called craniology, which will study the skulls of Malays, of Malays, of Negritos, of Negritos, of of Africans, of Latin, Africans, of Latin, of, you know, of people from the natives from the Americas to prove that they were inferior beings.

of people from the natives from the Americas to prove that they were inferior beings. You have fields of study in physical anthropology that studied various aspects of anthropometry, You have fields of study in physical anthropology that studied various aspects of anthropometry, studying not just the skulls but also the bone structure. studying not just the skulls but also the bone structure.

And the museums were sites where these artifacts were placed and studied. And museums were sites where these artifacts were placed and studied. So this was the intention.

So this was the intention. So to give an analogy, So to give an analogy, a man who abducts a woman, a man who abducts a woman, a child, a child, abducts a child and keeps the child in his basement for 20 years. abducts a child, and keeps the child in his basement for 20 years.

You know stories about that right? You know stories about that, right? Now the man feeds the child, Now, the man feeds the child, gives a nice clothing, gives her nice clothing, gives a good food, gives her good food, good nutrition. good nutrition.

Do we say that that is a redeeming quality of the man? Do we say that that is a redeeming quality of the man? Clearly we don't right? Clearly we don't, right?

Professor, Professor, thank you so, thank you so much for a really illuminating discussion. so much for a really illuminating discussion. Thank you.

Thank you. It's great to hear this. It's great to hear this. I've been in Singapore before. I've been in Singapore for four years.

Oh sorry, Oh, sorry, I'm Professor Ian Hickson from NTU, I'm Professor Ian Dixon from NTU. who is drastically underrepresented today. who is drastically underrepresented today. But apart from the Merlion, But apart from the merlion, one of the great icons of Singapore is Raffles.

one of the great icons of Singapore, is Raffles. And And I just want to return to I just want to return... return to Edward Said and ask, NBC and ask, okay, okay, so you have concentrated on facts, so you have concentrated on facts. and I utterly agree with your position. And I utterly agree with you.

But but Said also spoke about interpretations, Saine also spoke about interpretations, about language, about language about literature, about literature, about the macroaggressions as represented in the microaggressions. about macroaggressions as represented in the microaggressions and if we look at the trajectory of that in modern culture there seems to be this rift with post-colonialism being recognized globally why why And if we look at the trajectory of that in modern culture, it's very clear that the microaggressions There seems to be this rift with post-colonialism being recognized globally. Why is Singapore still venerating a man like Raffles? I'm... I'm not very...

Okay, first of all, Singapore is still venerating a man like Raffles, but that has to be qualified. I think the generation of my students, some of them are here today, actually, the generation of my students, of my students, the youth, the youth, are a lot more skeptical, a lot more skeptical if not critical of the whole idea of raffles as an icon that is definitely the case even if the textbooks haven't changed too much and of course there has been if not critical, of the whole idea of raffles as an icon. That is definitely the case, even if the textbooks haven't changed too much. And of course there has been some change in the textbooks, some change in the textbooks, as was mentioned earlier.

as was mentioned earlier. The textbooks do recognize that Singapore history began much earlier than 1819, The textbooks do recognise that Singapore history began much earlier than 1819, so that is a change, so that is a change. although the great man of history idea is still there.

Although the great man of history idea is still there. Raffles is still accorded that status. Raffles is still accorded that status.

In popular discourse, In popular discourse, in the arts, in the arts, in literature, in literature, there's far more critique of Raffles than in the universities, there's far more critique of Raffles than in the universities, than in academic scholarship. than in academic scholarship. In fact, In fact, I didn't have I didn't have time to... have time to read but I have in my text as an example a poem by the well-known Malay poet Suratman Markasan which is, to read. I have in my text, as an example, a poem by the well-known Malay poet, Suratman Markasan, which is, I think it's called, I think it's called The Ballad of a Man Before the Statue of Raffles it's written in Malay but I have an English translation and it's a very critical piece, The Ballad of a Man Before the Statue of Raffles.

It's written in Malay, but I have an English translation. And it's a very critical piece. I'd be happy to share it with you. I'll be happy to share it with you, so you do find So you do find in the performing arts, in the performing arts, in the visual arts, in the visual arts, in the... in literature, in literature, a more critical stance.

a more critical stance. So I think the question really is, So I think the question really is, why do the political elite and the academic elite and the academics in Singapore lag behind why do the political elite and the academic elite and the academics in Singapore lag behind Singaporeans in general in terms of adopting a critical perspective? Singaporeans in general in terms of adopting a critical perspective? I'm not very sure about that. I'm not very sure about that.

Yeah, hello, Professor Latas. I'm Lynn from NUS. I'm Lin from NUS. I respect and agree with your view about the Eurocentric view of colonialism and history. I respect and agree your view about the Eurocentric view of colonialism and history.

But isn't that the prerogative of the government of the day? But isn't that the prerogative of the government of the day? You know, You know, the government of the day will want to portray itself in the best possible light. the government of the day will want to portray itself in the best possible light. And that applies across the board, And that applies across the board, whether they are colonial masters.

whether they are colonial masters, post-colonial governments, Post-colonial governments, or the people of the day. anybody. Anybody.

So, So, I mean, I mean, that is my view. that is my view. And the other part about history, And the other part about history, I think part of your value as an academic is to teach young Singaporeans that there is this other aspect. I think part of your value as an academic is to teach young Singaporeans that there's this other aspect, you know, that Raffles isn't just this great man to be venerated. that raffles great men to be generated.

Yeah, so what do you think? Of course I agree. Of course I agree, and we do try to teach.

We do try to teach a decolonial or post-colonial approach to history, a decolonial or post-colonial approach to history, whether it's about raffles or indeed many other things. whether it's about raffles or indeed many other things. And I think the...

I think the, my father started the Department of Malay Studies at NUS in 1967, My father started the Department of Malay Studies at NUS in 1967, and that department, and that department, since then until now, since then until now, has always adopted a decolonial or post-colonial approach to the study. has always adopted a decolonial or post-colonial approach to the study of history, of history, society, society, literature and many things. literature, and many things.

So yes, So, yes, we should... we should do that and I think some of us are doing that. should do that and I think some of us are doing that your first point about being the prerogative of the government to to you know support or peddle in you Your first point about being the prerogative of the government to support or peddle in a colonial perspective, know a colonial perspective of course you're right but but of course you are right, but Singapore is not North Korea. Singapore is not North Korea right Singapore, Singapore whatever the problems are in Singapore it's okay it's not in whatever the problems are in Singapore, it's not exactly a liberal democracy, not exactly a liberal democracy, but neither is it a totalitarian state.

but neither is it a totalitarian state. The government is elected and does say that it, Government is elected and does say that it, the government does say that this is a democratic state. the government does say that this is a democratic state. It does elicit views, It does elicit views and Singaporeans are quite free to voice their views about any number of things and they do.

and Singaporeans are quite free to voice their views about any number of things, and they do. So I think it's also the duty of Singaporeans under the system that we live in to say what they really think about any number of issues. So I think it's also the duty of Singaporeans under the system that we live in.

in to say what they really think about any number of issues. And this is one of the issues that, And this is one of the issues that... you know, You know the roads must fall.

the roads must fall, The statue of Cecil Rhodes, the statue of Cicel Rhodes which was, there was a campaign against it at the University of Cape Town. there was a campaign against it at the University of Cape Town. The statue of Rhodes, The statue of Rhodes, a colonial figure, a colonial... ...figure stood in front of the University of Cape Town in South Africa. stood in front of the University of Cape Town in South Africa.

Several years ago, Several years ago, I think it was 2015 or so, I think it was 2000. 15 or so. Prior to that there were years of campaigns to prior to that there were years of campaigns to take down the statue and that campaign came to be known as Roads Must Fall, take down the statue and that campaign came to be known as roads must fall right so Singaporeans should be asking about whether raffles must fall even if not even if not physically but symbolically right? So Singaporeans should be asking about whether raffles must fall.

Even if not physically, but symbolically. Professor Alatas, Professor Alatas, Kotai An here from the Centre for Liberal Arts and Social Sciences, Kotai An here from the Centre for Liberal Arts and Social Sciences, NTU. NTU.

I'd like to return to the earlier question, I'd like to return to the earlier question, why the Singapore government continues to revere why the Singapore government continues to revere Raffles as the... Raffles as the... founder of Singapore. founder of Singapore.

Earlier somebody mentioned that it was upon the advice of Win Samyus, Earlier somebody mentioned that it was upon the advice of Win Samyus, that's true, that's true, right, right, to encourage investment in Singapore and that Singapore wasn't going communist as it was then feared. to encourage investment in Singapore and that Singapore wasn't going communist as it was then feared. It is on record, It is on record, Roger Ratnam said, Roger Ratnam said, that why did the government choose to recognize that why did the government choose to recognize Raffles as the founder of Singapore?

Raffles as the founder of Singapore? He said, He said, otherwise, otherwise, you know, you know, I think he was aware of some of the historical research. I think he was aware of some of the historical research.

We can't say it was the Chinese, We can't say it was the Chinese, right? right? We can't say it was the Malays. We can't say it was the Malays. We can't say it's the Indians.

We can't say it's the Indians. So it's more safe, So it's more safe, you know, you know, since that's since that's 1819. 1819. It is a fact. It is a fact, right. You can find this in a note to an article of mine on culture policy in Singapore and how it originated from British colonial times. You can find this in a note to an article of mine on culture policy in Singapore and how it originated from British colonial times, right.

So that was the reason that writer Annam gave. So that was the reason that writer Annam gave. And this is the same.

And it is the same reason why English was decided to be the, The reason why English was decided to be the, well, well, is virtually the national language of Singapore, it's virtually the national language of Singapore, though constitutionally, though constitutionally, Malay is still the national language, Malay is still the national language, because the same reason, because the same reason, since it didn't belong to Indians, since it didn't belong to Indians, Malays, Malays, Chinese. Chinese, and and I'm sorry, I'm sorry, usually they forget that you're Asians, usually they forget that you're Asians, you know, you know, that's their mother tongue too, that's their mother tongue too, apart from the Portuguese Christian, apart from the Portuguese Christian, right? right? So that since it's a language that belongs to nobody, So that since it's a language that belongs to nobody, then it can belong to everybody.

then it can belong to everybody. Thank you. Yeah, Thank you.

Yeah, thank you for that. thank you for that. I think, I think, yeah, yeah, this is what Rajaratnam said. this is what Rajaratnam said. I think Winsamia's idea, I think Winsamia's idea, you know, you know, the Dutch economist, the Dutch economist, his idea had more to do with signalling to the rest of the world, his idea had more to do with signalling to the rest of the world, especially to the West, especially to the West, that Singapore was friendly to them and open for...

that Singapore was friendly to them and open for... for business. for business.

But I think that was an overkill. But I think that was an overkill. I don't quite understand the logic of it because I don't think it was necessary to go that far to show to the West and to the British in particular. I don't quite understand the logic of it because I don't think it was necessary to go that far to show to the West and to the British in particular.

particular that Singapore was friendly and open for business. particular that Singapore was friendly and open for business. And I certainly think that it's not the case today. I certainly think that it's not the case today. So it's still, It's still to me puzzling as to why there's no change in the discourse, to me, puzzling as to why there's no change in the discourse, at least the official discourse and the textbooks and so on.

at least the official discourse and the textbooks and so on. Yeah. Yeah.

All right, All right. we have time for one more question. We have time for one more question. Thank you. Thank you professor.

Thank you, Professor. My name is Adrian van Veeck. My name is Adrian van Veeck. I'm from Cape Town. I'm from Cape Town.

I was part of the Rhodes Muscle Movement, I was part of the Rhodes Muscle Movement and essentially there was the intergenerational tension as well as to how history was taught and today your your talk reminds me of the and essentially there was an intergenerational tension as well as to how history was taught. And today your talk reminds me of the history of the road. me much of the work of me much of the work of Michel Ralph Trulot, Michel Ralph Trulot, the Haitian historian who speaks about silencing the past, the Haitian historian who speaks about silencing the past, as well as Ivan van Sertimas, as well as Ivan van Sertimas, they came before Columbus.

they came before Columbus. But I'd like to just hear about your perception about this rolling theme going through. But I'd like to just hear about your perception about this rolling theme going through.

through through Europe right now of apology. Europe right now of apology. And these apologies, And these apologies, which in African jurisprudence we ask about with what are you apologizing? which in African jurisprudence we ask about with what are you apologizing?

And this accountability of history and the accountability of the history that we now have access to, And this accountability of history and the accountability of the history that we now have access to, we will, we will, as someone was there during Rhodes Must Fall when the feces was thrown on Rhodes'statue, as someone was there during Rhodes Must Fall when the feces was thrown on Rhodes'statue, what is your perception about these empty apologies? what is your perception about these empty apologies? And then also to segue into... And then also to segue into...

to these perceptions that the artifacts that were stolen from us, to these perceptions that the artifacts that were stolen from us, not taken or not borrowed, not taken or not borrowed, but stolen, but stolen, there's this perception that we don't know what we should do with these artifacts, there's this perception that we don't know what we should do with these artifacts, which is again a mythology which connects to this colonial imagination. which is again a mythology which connects to this colonial imagination. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah, this is a very important topic.

this is a very important topic. I'm not really interested in apologies. I'm not really interested in apologies. I'm interested in reparations and there is a movement.

I'm interested in reparations. And there is a movement. In the decolonial world there is a movement pressing for reparations because In the decolonial world, there is a movement pressing for reparations because colonialism was devastating.

colonialism was devastating. In some countries, In some countries, in some regions, in some regions, more devastating than others. more devastating than others.

And we still suffer from the legacies of colonialism. still suffer from the legacies of colonialism. So I think reparations are on the table for discussion, So I think reparations are... are on the table for discussion, or should be. or should be.

But, But the problem is, you know, the problem is... So reparations is one thing. so reparations is one thing.

That's more the practical aspect of decolonization. That's more the practical aspect of decolonization. Decolonization is an ongoing process.

Decolonization is an ongoing process. Countries have politically decolonized, Countries have politically decolonized, but in terms of political economy, but in terms of political economy, in terms of the way the world works today, in terms of the way the world works today, the political economy of the world is still controlled by a few countries. the political economy of the world is still controlled by a few countries. I mean, I mean, we still depend on the US dollar.

we still depend on the US dollar. And only now in the last years, And only now, in the last years, there have been discussions on de-dollarization, there have been discussions on de-dollarization, right? right?

But we are so heavily dependent on the U.S. But we are so heavily dependent on... on the US dollar. dollar.

Institutions like the World Bank, Institutions like the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, the International Monetary Fund, United Nations are controlled by a few countries. United Nations are controlled by a few countries. They're not democratic institutions.

They're not democratic institutions. So the US has the power of sanctions and can dictate what countries can and cannot do. So the U.S. has the power of sanctions and can dictate what countries can and cannot do.

So my wife, So my wife, who is an Iranian citizen, who is... an Iranian citizen, has an Iranian passport, has an Iranian passport, cannot open a bank account. cannot open a bank account. I'm a Malaysian.

I'm a Malaysian. She cannot open a bank account. She cannot open a bank account in my country because of U.S. open a bank account in my country because of US sanctions.

sanctions. It's so ridiculous down to that level. It's so ridiculous down to that level.

Iran Iran Air, Iran Airlines, Air, Iran Airlines, can no longer fly to Malaysia because the Malaysian government, can no longer fly to Malaysia because the Malaysian government, Malaysian airport will not sell fuel to Iran Air again because of US sanctions. Malaysian airport will not sell fuel to Iran Air. Again, because of US sanctions.

They are afraid of the problems that They are afraid of the problems that Malaysian companies in the US will have for dealing with Iran. Malaysian companies in the US will have. have for dealing with Iran.

So we live in a world that is still very much controlled and manipulated by certain powers, So we live in a world that is still very much controlled and manipulated by certain powers, but particularly, particularly you know, Western powers. Western powers. Of course, Of course, with the rise of China, with the rise of China, things may change, things may change, but that's going to take a long time. but that's going to take a long time. So at the very least, So at the very least, we can, we can, apart from the practical politics of decolonization, apart from the the practical politics of decolonization, such as the push for reparation, such as the push for reparation, we need to teach differently in the universities so that our students grow up with a different kind of consciousness.

we need to teach differently in the universities so that that our students grow up with a different kind of consciousness. I mean, I mean, it's ridiculous that in Singapore, it's ridiculous that in Singapore, our students are speaking about the discovery of America. our students are speaking about the discovery of America. They're not even Americans. They're not even Americans.

Breathing down my neck. Breathing down my neck. Let me just quickly say, Let me just quickly say, right, right, we are in Singapore, we are in Singapore, we're in the region, we're in the region, we know all the Western canon, we know all the Western canon, but Singaporean students never heard of Jose Rizal and have not read Jose Rizal, but Singaporean students never heard of Jose Rizal and have not read Jose Rizal, although he's arguably one of the most important thinkers from the colonial period in our region. although he's arguably one of the most important thinkers from the colonial period in our region. So there is a lot of decolonization that remains to be done.

So there is a lot of decolonization that remains to be done. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much, Thank you very much, Professor Alitas. Professor Alitas.