Now we have to be careful to understand exactly what's going on in the body when we eat sugar. Most people think, I'm low energy, I'm going to eat sugar, it's going to give me energy, right? And that's something that marketing has been telling us for decades. Sugar for breakfast will give you energy, we need sugar to live, etc. What's actually happening, Christian, when we eat sugar, is that there's a pleasure response in the brain.
Dopamine gets released and we feel like, whoa, I feel good. That is not energy, that's just food. Dopamine.
Actually, on the inside, when we eat sugar and we have glucose spikes, over time, our little mitochondria get damaged and we become less good at creating energy in the body. When I walked into this studio, you know, I had my water on me and I just got out my car and I was ready, and I see you in the snack area and you were eating a Snickers. Yeah.
See, I don't judge. You do what you want. But now my question is to you, why were you eating a Snickers?
Well, I was eating a Snickers Not because I wanted energy, and I'm going to explain this, because I was feeling a bit low today and I wanted dopamine. So when I want dopamine, I go and pick up something sweet. Now we have to be careful to understand exactly what's going on in the body when we eat sugar. Most people think, I'm low energy, I'm going to eat sugar, it's going to give me energy, right?
And that's something that marketing has been telling us for decades. Sugar for breakfast will give you energy, we need sugar to live, etc. And that's what we're going to do.
actually happening, Christian, when we eat sugar, is that there's a pleasure response in the brain. Dopamine gets released and we feel like, whoa, I feel good. But that is not energy.
That's just dopamine. Actually, on the inside, when we eat sugar and we have glucose spikes, over time, our little mitochondria get damaged and we become less good at creating energy in the body. So the reason I was eating the Snickers is because I just wanted a bit of dopamine.
to feel a bit of a high as we were starting the episode. Because today it's so foggy and it's raining and I've had a super long week and I was just like, my brain needs to just have a bit of a little shot. But I know very well that by doing that, I'm gonna probably have a crash in a couple of hours. But I use it very consciously. But I want people to remember, when you eat sugar, it's not energy you're getting.
Interesting, and now this is why people become addicted to these type of foods when it's consistently the dopamine hit boom boom boom. Dopamine is super addictive. You have to be quite cautious, you know, when you use it. And I don't really do this often, but sometimes I'm like, oh, this is the right moment to actually use that as a tool almost.
But the biggest issue I see is when people have sugar at breakfast because they think that's going to give them energy. And actually, when you have sugar at breakfast and you create a big glucose spike in your body, you're not giving your body that much energy. It's again dopamine. But you're getting the spike and then you're getting the crash.
And that crash at 11 a.m., you're like, oh, I'm so tired. I need something else that's sweet. Do I need a coffee, right?
And then over time, with all these glucose spikes, your mitochondria just, they kind of break down. And so you may become chronically fatigued, even though you're still eating the sugar for breakfast every morning. So you're thinking, I'm fueling my body. And then you're exhausted.
You can't, you know, play with your kids. You can't go grocery shopping. You're just exhausted. Yeah, throughout the day.
But you stay in that cycle. So. That's why, you know, I switched from eating a sweet breakfast my whole childhood and teenagehood to actually having a savory breakfast, which is the cornerstone of steady glucose levels.
And then, when you do need a bit of dopamine, use it almost like medicine, you know? Like, okay, you have a podcast, you have a big thing, you feel like you need to give something to your brain, you can have a little bit of sugar for that purpose. I see.
So, it's funny because everything's been marketed as the sweet. I can remember, like... The waffles with all the maple syrup on top of it.
Or orange juice. Orange juice right next to it, right? Even the whole acai bowl movement, right?
Like people were having like, I'm going to have a fresh acai bowl for breakfast. And the thing is, in the acai bowl, it's all fruit based. So people think, oh, if the sugar comes from fruit, it's going to be good sugar.
And if the sugar comes from like Coca-Cola, that's bad sugar. But actually your body does not differentiate, you know, where those molecules come from. It doesn't say, oh, glucose molecules from orange juice, that's going to be good for me.
But, oh no, glucose molecules from Coca-Cola is going to be bad for me. Your body doesn't know where those molecules are coming from. So what matters is not so much the source, it's more like how much sugar you're eating, and what packaging, and what quantities, on an empty stomach versus after a meal, etc.
And, you know, that's one of the things I'm so passionate about, teaching people how the food, the molecules in the food, actually affects their health. And not just so they don't fall prey to all the marketing. Yeah, big time marketing. Lots of money in that too. One of the best things is when the sponsors don't On the show, mirror the things that I take every single day, and AG1 has been one of those.
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So to get yours, go to drinkelement.com slash DRG and thank me later. So you mentioned the empty stomach, full stomach. Now, if I have a good healthy meal, good fiber, got a good amount of protein, fat, some carbohydrates, does that make a difference if I top it off with a little bit of a... Snickers?
Yeah, a little snicker. Like, let's say a quarter of a Snickers. Absolutely. Versus on the empty.
So that's what I did, right? I just had lunch, and so my stomach was full. I had lots of fiber, protein, yummy stuff.
I had a big chicken salad. It was delicious. And so having the Snickers now... is actually going to create a much smaller spike than if I had the Snickers when I first woke up. Or if I had the Snickers, like, in two hours when my stomach is more empty between meals.
Because you have to remember that there's a whole digestive system going on here. And so if you eat sugar on an empty stomach, for example, first thing when you wake up, your stomach is empty, your upper intestine is empty, you eat the Snickers, it goes like and super quickly into your bloodstream. There's nothing stopping it at all.
On the other hand, if you have that same sugar, After a meal, what happens? You're still getting the dopamine from the sweet food. So you're still getting the pleasure. But because there's other stuff in your stomach, those glucose molecules are just gonna sort of stay on top and make their way more slowly into your intestine and then into your bloodstream.
And that's really key. If we're able to give glucose molecules to our body more slowly, like less intensely, less quickly, the concentration of glucose in our blood rises more slowly, we don't get that big of a spike and that big of a drop. So that's one of my hacks, you know.
If you want to eat something sweet, do it after a meal instead of on an empty stomach. That's literally like my mantra. Sweet treat after I eat.
Yeah. Maximum pleasure, minimal impact. Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Okay, so we got that, the empty stomach part. Now we got the Snickers picture. Okay, now, you know, Snickers was my favorite one when I was little. Really? That was my favorite.
But my mom used to bring me to get Snickers like once every week, I think, on Fridays. Nice. And... and I was just a big sucker for it.
Really? Yeah, yeah. Do you even eat anymore?
No. Not really. But if you did, you'd probably not do it on an empty stomach.
You'd do it after a meal, maybe before going for a walk. Yeah, sometimes I'll crave the chocolates, right? Especially in this weather.
Yeah. Cold, wintery. So I came in and I asked your team for chocolate, but they didn't have any chocolate. They were like, we just have Snickers.
Otherwise, I would have had some dark chocolate. Oh, dark chocolate. Because that actually makes me feel way better than Snickers. It feels a bit chemical after tasty. Yeah, like synthetic, but the dark chocolate.
But I wanted the dopamine Christian, so I had to compose with what was available. Let's talk about brain fog. So many people are suffering with brain fog. They DM me, they say, Dr. G, I got brain fog for this, this, and this. I don't know what's going on.
And I know it could be a multitude of stuff, but from a nutritional standpoint. What the heck is happening when someone is suffering with constant persistent brain fog and what do we do about it? So it's important to mention, as you said really well, that there could be many causes, right?
But we know there's a specific, very interesting link between glucose spikes and brain fog. So first, I want to go back a little bit to explain to people what happens in your body when a glucose spike takes place. So when your blood sugar, your glucose concentration increases very quickly in your body, it has a few consequences on your cells.
Number one. It inflames your cells. And number two, it increases glycation, which is essentially aging.
And this happens everywhere in your body, including in your brain cells. So it's not like your brain is like, you know, protected and cut off and doesn't really mind what's going on here. Like, things happen everywhere.
And the brain is extra sensitive to these fluctuations in glucose levels. And so, when your brain cells, your neurons, have this problem of inflammation and excess glycation, the signals between them slows down a little bit. They don't perform as well as they ought to.
And that slowness of signal can be felt as brain fog because literally they're not communicating as effectively as usual. So, you know, thoughts, memories, cognition, it's just kind of like, woo, not having a great time. And so as humans, it might just feel like Your memory is a bit out of whack or you feel a bit foggy. You can't really think or focus, you know, your sharpness is a bit gone. And so that's one of the reasons it happens.
And that's why it's so wonderful. I hear so many stories of people who are like, oh, I flattened my glucose spikes because of like hormonal issues or energy. And also now my brain feels like it got an upgrade. You literally can feel the connections going faster. It's so, so cool.
Yeah, it's one of my favorite things because I find that persistent snacking is what really gives me a lot of the brain fog. So thinking about how the brain isn't cut off. Many of us think like, oh, I've got issues. My brain's fine.
No, it's a deep connection. And that inflammation, the neuroinflammation really being pushed by that. And now we also know, you know, some scientists are calling, if you look a bit long-term, so brain fog is a short-term thing, right?
And glucose spikes can affect brain fog, your mood, your energy, but long-term. when you look at dementia or neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer's, we're starting to see more and more of a link between those and glucose and insulin. So some scientists call Alzheimer's, as you know, type 3 diabetes. Because what happens in our brain cells is very similar to what happens to the cells in the rest of our body when we have diabetes.
Which is, number one, inflammation, glycation. And number two, your brain cells become insulin resistant, which means they can no longer absorb glucose very effectively. and they can't make energy as effectively as before. And we're starting to see that that's really a pattern that is happening in people who have dementia. So, you know, flattening your glucose spikes is helpful today to help your brain just thrive on the daily, but also long-term so you protect it from those kinds of things.
Yeah, very important because how many of us are suffering with, we can even call it type 3 diabetes because it's so persistent and connected to blood sugar. Yeah, and recently, by the way, I think a couple of weeks ago, there was a report of a 19-year-old. being diagnosed with Alzheimer's.
I don't think I've ever heard of that. Yes, and it was like the first of its kind. It's a bit like in the past we used to say type 2 diabetes is adult onset. Right, but kids are not.
And now we're like, oh my God. Like, I hope this is a fluke. I hope this is not a pattern.
I hope people don't start getting Alzheimer's younger and younger and younger. I hope it's not a type 2 diabetes situation. But yeah, it's scary. Preventing this kind of stuff. should be a priority if we have the tools and the information.
Big public health tool, especially with the nutritional standpoint. And all the marketing that goes, I wonder what the kid was eating all his life, what his exposures were. You mentioned glycation and aging.
Can persistent glycation of our cells cause literal physical aging, premature aging? All of us want to look beautiful and young, right? I'm actually 65 years old. I'm 70. Literally, blood glucose spikes cause premature aging. Totally.
So glycation sounds a lot like glucose when you think about it. Glucose, glycation. And it's actually because glucose causes glycation.
So the process of glycation, which is also called aging, is a little bit like the process of cooking. Like when you put a chicken in the oven and it goes from pink to brown, it has glycated. It has cooked. It has aged.
As human beings, from the moment we're born, we slowly glycate, we slowly cook. And then when we're fully cooked, we die. When scientists look at the cartilage of babies, it's white. When they look at the cartilage of people who are 100 years old, it's brown. It has literally cooked like a chicken in the oven.
So glycation is aging. And we can't stop the process of aging. But we can have a huge impact on whether it goes more slowly or more quickly.
quickly. So we can slow it down or speed it up. And one of those ways is by modulating our glucose levels, our blood sugar levels. So the more spikes you have, especially the more spikes you have from sweet foods, the faster glycation is taking place, the faster you're aging. And this shows on your skin.
as wrinkles. When collagen gets glycated, it causes wrinkles. And on the inside, where your organs are just slowly aging. So yes, 100%. 100%.
If you want to live a long, healthy life and increase your health span, modulating your glucose levels and learning to steady it so you don't accelerate glycation is an important piece. Powerful. And it makes sense, right?
How many people who look really good for their age have been eating healthy, not dabbing in sugar all the time and eating a ton of vegetables that are attenuated in those plates. Because when you're 70 years old, two people can be 70 and look vastly different. Like one could look really young and the other one could look really old.
And that's not your genes. That is not your genetics. Even identical twins who have the same DNA can look vastly different and on the inside be vastly younger or older depending on how they live their lives.
So we have so much control over how long... we're going to stay healthy for. But we need the information, and that's why, you know, I'm so passionate about the work I do, is that we need to tell people these things. Because you can't just intuitively know it, right? Marketing is bombarding you, so you have to cut through and learn the science.
I love that. So we have the aging, and with aging comes energy, just going down, dropping down. I remember when I was 13 years old, I had the most energy.
I was just chit-chatting on my bike, I couldn't go to sleep. What happens from a blood sugar standpoint? that our cells and aging and energy begin to become affected?
How do we lose energy over time? So when you talk about energy, usually the first place to look is to your mitochondria. And those are the little machines inside your cells that literally create energy for the body. And their favorite source of energy is glucose. So mitochondria are really good at transforming glucose molecules into energy.
And this energy is used in many different ways, right? Like right now, you know, your hand cells are using energy to just hold the thing. Your brain cells are using energy to think. Your heart cells are using energy to pump. So it's really, really important.
And these mitochondria and their health is really key. So here's the thing. Your mitochondria are really happy when you give them like a steady stream of glucose.
When you eat in a way that keeps your glucose relatively steady. and gives them this nice material to turn into energy. However, when you experience your glucose spike, so when you deliver too much glucose too quickly to your mitochondria, the mitochondria stress out and kind of go on strike and they become overwhelmed. They're like, whoa, I can't, it's too much, too much, no thank you, and they shut down.
And that leads to the release of reactive oxygen species, which are these tiny little molecules that cause a lot of damage. to your DNA, to your cell walls, etc. That leads to oxidative stress and inflammation.
But importantly, your mitochondria, under the stress of too much glucose, they can't make energy as effectively anymore. So that's where we circle back to that thing about the breakfast and eating sugar for breakfast. We think it's giving us energy.
Actually, it's releasing dopamine, giving us pleasure. But on the inside, it's harming our little mitochondria. So over time, Eating a lot of sugar, having a lot of glucose spikes really increases your risk of having chronic fatigue.
And we just think about how this, again, to the marketing, it's like we see the commercials and the pictures and this is part of the American diet or a worldwide diet and how we should be eating. And we're not even knowing because I'm thinking about like you eat that high sugar breakfast and you're crashing a few hours later and you just drink coffee. And you get through the rest of the day. And you're essentially on a roller coaster. You're like a high-functioning glucose roller coaster.
Because every time you crash, you have coffee or more sugar. Then you spike and then you crash again. And a lot of people go through life sort of managing that state because they snack every two hours, they drink a lot of coffee, etc.
But actually on the inside, things are not going very well. So if you stop that roller coaster, you're actually able to unlock real, deep cellular energy that keeps you steady. you know, during the day. And so you slowly jump off of that crazy roller coaster. Which we're so addicted to.
Yeah. Right? And this is why we love, this is why coffee industry is a whole show in itself, right?
It's like, this is what we love. So we think about the energy and we think about how we're prematurely aging, even our skin. You mentioned the collagen, which is, we don't even think about. We all want to get collagen powders, right?
We all want to do all of these things to take in. How about you take care of the collagen you have? Right, take care of the collagen you have.
Exactly, the blood sugar spikes. What about when it comes to our, let's say we have a really sugary breakfast. I know it may be different for different people, but if we do have a sugary breakfast and since you're working with so much with glucose, how long does it take for us to really feel like? we're crashing, is it like, what if we can't put our finger on it?
90 minutes. 90 minutes. So 90 minutes is when the spike usually reaches its maximum. And after that, you start the slow decline. And then for some people, you know, when they crash, they feel things like nausea, they have sweats, palpitations.
They're like, oh, I have low blood sugar. You know that saying? So many people say that.
For others, it can be simply just humongous cravings, like actual, you know, just cravings that control you, where you're like. Anything sweet in this room needs to be in my mouth because you're just so controlled by this ancestral part of your brain telling you, Christian, your blood sugar is low and like eat something now, now, now, now. So I hear often that when people have cravings they might feel like guilty, shame about their cravings, they're like I don't have any willpower, you know, my body is trying, you know, it's fighting me. And honestly the cravings are not necessarily your fault.
Like you might actually, without knowing it, be causing those cravings with your breakfast, for example. So when you're having a craving, when you're facing one, I think the most important thing to remember is like don't try to resist it. Okay.
Eat the thing you want to eat. Use some of the hacks around it so you don't create another big spike. So maybe some vinegar before, maybe put some clothes on your carbs, et cetera.
And then think, okay, if you're somebody who suffers from cravings on a daily basis, you might have glucose spikes and a glucose roller coaster happening within. So use the hacks to like change that from the inside out and find the actual source and the cause of it all. And then the cravings naturally dissipate. And we could talk about this. So I have this whole method coming out, this four-week method to fast track you to steady blood sugar.
And I ran a study on 3,000 people testing it. After the four weeks, 89% of people reduced their cravings just by adding these four hacks into their lives. It's usually one of the first things that... fundamentally changes for people. Cravings and energy increasing.
As soon as they make any interventions? And then what else do we see over time? Well, depending on who you are, your body, your own life history, medical history, many things fall into place.
So the most common things are one, cravings reduce, energy increases, sleep gets better, you're not hungry anymore all the time. And then, depending again on who you are, hormones rebalance. You can start putting your type 2 diabetes into remission, you know, you can improve your fertility, your mental health can get better, you just feel happier.
And then long term, of course, you're preventing, you know, type 2 diabetes, you're reducing Alzheimer's risk, you're reducing heart disease risk, I mean, short term and long term. And for people who have skin issues, it's also something that might take like a few days or weeks to start changing. Or if you have like eczema, psoriasis, acne, all these inflammation-based skin conditions.
there's also a tendency to get better. And for me, you know, the reason I got into glucose in the first place was really just for mental health. Because my mental health was in the toilet. And fixing my glucose was for me the first step to fixing my brain and being happy again and feeling good when I woke up in the morning. And then I was like, oh my god, like I came to this because of mental health and now I feel better than I ever have.
I feel like I can really connect with my purpose. I have... I have energy, my brain is clear, I'm sleeping better, my skin is good, it's like all these bonuses.
I love that. And this is what we all need, right? And when it comes to just a pillar of health, the metabolic health, the blood glucose levels are there. They're right there. You have to do this.
You can't do all of the other things and not this. It's the foundation. Yeah, it's so important.
Yeah, because if you don't have that, it's gonna be really difficult. For example, if you have unsteady blood sugar, but you're taking a bunch of supplements, and you're working out a lot, it's just not going to be as effective. You really have to fix that very important, you know, base layer of health. And the studies show us that about 80% of the population has glucose spikes, even if they don't have diabetes. So most of us really benefit from just putting in place these easy hacks to change our glucose levels for the better.
And then you can start layering stuff. And then you start getting a lot of benefits really quickly. For me, ever since our show, I've been making sure to take bitters or vinegar before every meal. My gut feels better, definitely less cravings. That has been one of the biggest things.
Because the vinegar before the meal, it reduces the spike of the meal by up to 30%, right? And so as a result, you can still eat the same thing, but you're getting less of a spike and less of a crash. And in many people, that crash leads to the craving. Yeah, exactly. So no more cravings.
So 90 minutes, two hours after the meal, having that craving for something else, that's the first thing to go. And the vinegar hack is a really, really good place to start. And it's so easy.
So easy. It takes one minute. Less than a minute. How do you have the vinegar? Just water?
So I either have it on bitters, or if I don't have the bitters tincture, then I'll take a little vinegar, put it in a shot of water. Oh, wow, you do the shots. I do the shots. I want it nice and potent. You're not scared about your teeth's enamel?
No. I'll do like two ounces. Okay, I do mostly in water, and in my new book I have like 30 recipes.
I have like teas, mocktails, like nice little things. With vinegar? Yes! Oh, nice.
Because week two of the Glucose Goddess Method, you incorporate vinegar once a day. And so... I think it's really fun to experiment with these different things and making it a little ritual. Of course you can just do vinegar and water, even if you're out at a restaurant. But actually, I came up with lots of fun recipes that I can't wait for you to try.
I love this. I want some mocktails. Yeah! All right, I'm going to stop this and tell you. I got a new sponsor on the show.
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Minus 30%. Yeah, it's huge. So how about then the people who, let's talk about, you said working out, right? There's people who actually want to raise their blood sugar after workouts or something, right? This is just part of like the phenomenon of working out.
Is there any benefit to raising your blood sugar for... performance or cardiovascular health or workouts or something like that. So in the context of working out, and we're talking like, you know, athlete level workout.
We're not talking about like doing five pushups or something. Like we're talking people who like really, really work out. In that case, steadying your blood sugar around the workout is not the number one priority. The number one priority is to give your body like easy, accessible fuel.
So often you'll see athletes, you know, taking fast-acting carbs like before the workout during or after and that makes a lot of sense because if you have to do Explosive types of workout you need a lot of glucose available to you like in your bloodstream really quickly So it makes a lot of sense and also in those cases when you do have a spike as you're working out It's not as damaging because the exercise itself has so many positive effects on your body that in the balance It's actually positive and actually if you're fasted You might see that when you work out, there's a glucose spike happening in your body even though you haven't eaten anything. And that happens when your liver... releases glucose into your bloodstream to fuel your working muscles. It's very interesting. Yeah, that's cool if you have like the monitor and you're following through on it.
Which brings me to the monitor. Do you like the fast or the glucose monitors? The glucose monitors?
I wore one three years ago and that's how I got interested into the whole topic. But I think that now, like what I'm finding is that a lot of people can't afford them. And that the device is still kind of a medical device.
I mean, it technically is a medical device. It can be a bit complicated to understand the data. And importantly, you don't actually need one to start seeing the benefits from the hacks.
Most of my readers, most of my community don't wear a glucose monitor. But by applying the hacks, within a matter of days, they're like, oh my god, energy's up, cravings are down. You know, you feel it. You don't need to see it.
You can really feel it. But if you have one, that's totally cool and interesting. But I don't think it's necessary. Yeah, because I know some people wear them and they go, oh, I didn't know that potatoes, I thought sweet potatoes were good for me, right?
But it's really, what I'm hearing from you is, okay, no, connect to your body. Exactly. Like, how are you feeling after this yourself?
Because this may work for you, it may not work for you. And I get, you know, I get a lot of DMs from people being like, oh, I just got a glucose monitor and it's spiked from 80 to 82. Is that bad? Like, it's hard to understand the data, whereas 80 to 82 is not a spike at all, right?
Right. Like, it's a tiny little fluctuation. And so. Having a lot of data can be a little bit overwhelming.
And so if you want to wear a glucose monitor or you wear one, grab my first book because in there I explain everything you need to know to start making sense of that data in a way that feels friendly. Because if you just slap it on with no context, it can be a bit overwhelming, I think. Yeah, yeah. When it comes to eating before and after, I keep thinking about this vinegar hack because it's helped me so much.
What about something like fermented foods like kimchi? or sauerkraut, they're vinegary in themselves. Would that count? They're vinegary.
So fermented foods are really good for you for other reasons. They don't necessarily contain enough vinegar to do the vinegar hack, but they contain fiber. And fiber is another hack. Like having fiber at the beginning of a meal also helps reduce the spike.
So if you're into kimchi, go for it. It's super, super good for you. Another question I often get is, can I have pickles instead?
So pickles you can, but make sure there's no sugar. in the pickles because when you buy yeah so when you buy pickles at the store like make sure they're not putting cane sugar in there or any type of sugar but if there are pickles that you make for example or that don't contain sugar then yes that also works i would say you need like 10 pickles ish to get enough vinegar as is in a tablespoon of just regular vinegar and you and you can just drink that up and you're and you're good to go yeah it's quicker than just downing 10 pickles Yeah, but I mean, you know, you can switch it up. Why not?
Right, right. I have some really nice pickle recipes in the book too. So we'll have to make some together.
Listen, listen, I'm excited for this. Because look, as long as they're not two-hour recipes. Yeah, no.
Quick. Six ingredients or less. This is my type of thing, right?
I'm a guy who's like, okay, I got to make this food. I'm going to sit down and mindfully eat it. Do my little hacks before, clean up, and I'm good. Absolutely. But a whole...
part, you know, whole process is just way too much for me. My whole thing is how do we make these hacks and this science as easy and accessible as possible? And my intention with this book was when you open it, your first feeling is, oh, this looks so easy.
Yeah. That's the feeling I wanted. And that's why, for example, in the recipe pages, every single ingredient has a little cutout image of it. You know, and I have the ingredients bolded in the instructions. Everything is six ingredients or less, takes five minutes.
Because we're not talking about like recipes you make once a month when you have like your parents over for lunch. Like we're talking about things that need to be incorporated into your every day. So of course I'm completely with you. Very, very, very simple stuff.
I even have one of my favorite recipes is called backwards broccoli. And so, you know, it's actually so it's raw broccoli that you chop really, really finely. You put it in a bowl. You pour boiling water into the bowl, like water for tea.
You let it steep for two minutes. Kinda softens it. You drain it, plate it with some Greek yogurt and harissa.
Bam, beautiful veggie starter, took you three minutes. Wow. That's the kind of vibe I'm going for.
I can do that myself. You can do that. I just thought about that myself, I can do that. You can do that.
A veggie starter. And then my friends come over and they're like, wow, how did you make this? I was like, I got my own secrets here. This is a secret family recipe.
And then I'm just winking at you, I was like, I got the hookup over here. So that's the vibe. That's cool.
I wanna make it just so easy, even for people who've never cooked before. Yeah. That's the idea. Oh, I love that.
It's not fancy. So you mentioned your community. You've got a big community of people who really, really, they're just so drawn to this work.
Because obviously, you start balancing your blood glucose, you feel it fast, and it's long term. What are some of the most common questions you get from your community that are really, really just... Wow, like I need to address this right now on the Dr. G Healal That Self podcast.
I get a lot of questions around the veggie starter hack, the vinegar hack. So let's talk about those. The veggie starter hack, which is having some vegetables at the beginning of your meal so that the fiber makes its cool effect in your upper intestine and protects you from absorbing too many glucose molecules. People often ask me, how big should the veggie starter be? Right.
How long do I wait? between the veggie starter and the main? Can they be raw, cooked, etc.? And do olives count?
Do olives count? People ask me all the time, do olives count? So yes, olives count, but you need like 15 olives. In terms of quantity, so no scientific study has measured like the perfect quantity.
But what I've seen from my work in my community's tests is that if your veggie starter makes about 30% of your meal, that's a really good thing to aim for. That's a really good thing to aim for. You don't have to wait between veggie starter and the rest of the meal. Your veggies can be raw, cooked, whatever.
You can dress them with other stuff. Oh, another question I often get is, does soup count? So soup, when we blend any vegetables, the blades going like 6,000 rotations per minute or whatever, they actually polarize the fiber particles in the veggies.
And that makes them a bit less effective. So soup is an okay option, but having the whole vegetable is always a better option. Yeah, yeah, it makes sense.
And that's such an easy thing because having 30% of your plate with vegetables is good in so many other reasons than just blood glucose too. It's just so important. And eating them first is even more important.
Yeah, I do that too. I do that too. Listen, you inspire me with that, man. I make sure I'm going straight for this.
Then I'm going to leave that sweet potato. I'm going to come for you later. Yeah, come for you later.
And then vinegar questions. So People ask me, can I have any type of vinegar? Right.
That's the most common question. So the most common and the answer to that common question is yes. So any type works because what you're really after is this molecule called acetic acid, which is inside vinegar. But it can be apple cider vinegar, red wine vinegar, white vinegar, balsamic, etc.
Whatever type of vinegar, rice vinegar. The one you want to avoid is like, you know the one that's super syrupy, like a glaze? Yeah.
Like glaze balsamic. That usually has extra sugar in it. So that's not a good option. Yeah. I know that one very well.
I made a little caprese salad for Super Bowl and I glazed them up real nice. I had some vegan mozzarella cheese on tomatoes. That's the extent of my cooking. Perfect.
But it was good. Yeah, I bet it was good. It was a hit. And I told everyone, eat these first before you get into them nachos over there. Make sure you go here first.
I love that. I'm so... I go back to this...
brain and blood sugar, right? It's just such a huge thing because, you know, people are suffering with Alzheimer's. My dad had Parkinson's. I mean, my grandfather had Parkinson's.
And I was thinking to myself, it's like, whoa, I could be genetically predisposed. And then I did my ancestry and it says of all of the chronic diseases, type 2 diabetes is the thing that I'm predisposed to in my family. So in your take, in your research, we're not there yet. How much of a connection do you think is the blood glucose and...
The neurodegenerative diseases. It's definitely important. You know, we're starting to realize that neurodegenerative diseases are actually metabolic diseases.
Right? And so, very similar to diabetes. For example, if you compare like the effect of your DNA to the effect of how you're eating on your long-term brain health, the way you're eating has a much bigger impact.
You know, even if your parents had a disease, It doesn't mean you're gonna get it. You have a lot of agency to change the course of your destiny. I worked in genetics for five years.
Like, I know, I've seen firsthand that even if you have a genetic predisposition, you still have flexibility and freedom and leeway to actually make an impact. You know, it's not like a death sentence, it's not a thing, it's not a blueprint. I mean, you have a lot of power.
A lot of power. And to me, fixing your glucose levels is so key to short-term and long-term health, it's the first place to start. It's a really important pillar.
Then of course other things matter. Exercising. Sleeping, stress management, you know, mental health, connection with other humans, medical care, you know, products, mold, I mean there's so many things.
But the cool thing about your glucose levels is that, A, it's very easy to impact. And it doesn't have to be complicated. You don't have to go on a diet.
You don't have to give up the foods you love. You just use the hacks I share and you add them like gentle giants in your life, you know, and they protect you. And second, it affects you right now and long term. Yeah.
Because as humans, we're not very motivated by, oh, I'm going to do this so that when I'm 95 years old, I don't get this disease. But what if I told you, do this so that tomorrow you have way more energy and you sleep better and cherry on top, long-term real health. Yeah, I love that.
I mean, that's why it's foundational. That's why we were talking about. a huge, this is a centerpiece for so much. Exactly.
And we talked, you just mentioned mold, building resiliency, right? If your blood sugar's all over the place, your cortisol's all over the place. It's stressful for the body.
Yeah, of course. Because the glucose rollercoaster is fundamentally a stress on the body. And it can impact your adrenals, it can impact your thyroid, it can impact just so many things.
That thing happening within is going to have consequences on the rest of your life. Have you had anyone in your community say, hey, my acne got better? Fuck yeah.
Yeah? Yeah. So there's a huge connection with the blood sugar and the acne. Yeah, because acne is inflammation-based. And the more spikes you have, the more inflammation there is in your body.
So if you have a terrain for an inflammatory disease, whether it's acne, rheumatoid arthritis, whether it's eczema, psoriasis, whatever, keep that inflammation down and the symptoms will go down. It's really key. And glucose spikes are one of the leading causes of inflammation in the body. I mean, there are other causes for sure, but that's a really easy one to affect. So yeah, I mean, I've had actually last week I got a message from a woman.
I think she was like 45. She said she had been having acne for 30 years. And she tried everything. The topical creams, the medication, the cutting out dairy, everything. And after three weeks of the method, her skin started clearing up for the first time in her life.
Wow. Fixing things from within. That's so important, you know, because we can put the creams, like we can, and they can be helpful.
But if you're not fixing the thing from within... It's not going to move the needle. I like to think that all the symptoms we're experiencing are like messages from the inside of our body.
Being like, hey, Jesse, glucose spikes happening within, you know. Whether it's acne, whether it's cravings, whether it's fatigue, etc. Your body is speaking to you. Yeah.
You got to listen. It always is. And I know that you're a fan of the emotional stuff. Oh, yes. So your body is always speaking to you.
Can we talk about the session? Oh, yeah, for sure. Okay, so you did a session with me.
Yeah, thank you so much. Absolutely amazing, amazing, amazing. And you know, I'm a big fan of all this stuff. And I really felt like, first of all, you're really good at it.
Thank you. Like, even from the moment I lay on the table, and I think you put your hands on my shoulders or something, I just almost started crying. Just like the energy that you channeled, I was like, wow, this is going to be amazing.
And I felt a lot of movement in my spine through the whole session. You know, I was like... You were moving a lot.
Sitting up, moving. Because, you know, I broke my back when I was 19. and I just felt so much stuff like moving and releasing and I was making these funny sounds. I was like, whoa.
Like I just felt like all this stuff needed to move. And I felt so good. So thank you.
It was such a beautiful experience. You're welcome. What is your connection to emotional healing? Because I know that when we brought that up, it's in your heart. Yeah.
Like... What part of that, how do you see that in health? How do you see that in healing people?
Because I know you're so, you're really into it. I'm so into it. For me personally, it's such a big part of my daily life. Like I check in with my body, I'm like, okay, is stuff stuck?
I'll like stretch and make sounds depending on what part of my body needs to move something. That's powerful. Super powerful. Let's stay right there for a second. So what does it look like?
Let's say you have a tension in your back or your stomach. So I'll put a mat out in my living room or something. My favorite one is the pigeon pose because those hips, they store stuff.
So I'll do pigeon and then I just kind of lay on my leg and I just see what needs to come out. And for me, a lot of the stuff that is in my body needs to come out through sound. It has to.
So I'll be like, or like, or whatever the sound is. And for me, it was a big journey in learning that I could speak to my body in that way. And I love it.
Like, I am obsessed. I think it's so freaking cool. And that's why I'm such a big fan of the work you're doing, you know?
Thank you. I just think it's amazing. And I wish more people knew about this.
Like, I really think that... I hope that, you know, in 50 years, everybody will know this. And we'll be like, okay, we can retire now, no problem. It's so important.
And it's interesting because my work on Grugos feels very upstream. It's like, okay, first... Let's teach people that how they're eating is impacting their body.
And that they have power to control their experience of life if they learn to study their glucose levels. And then once that is done, there's more cool stuff you can do. There's more cool stuff. Exactly.
And so one of the cool things is exactly what you're doing, like recognizing emotions in your body, where they're stuck, moving them so you can be free. That's so cool. Yeah, I just love how intuitively you felt to make sound. Because a lot of people, I mean, I've done Countless yoga classes and there's people kind of just like right there breathing and they're doing the pigeon pose, but I've never heard anyone go With me in the back I'll be screaming out loud cookie stuff in the back right right right exactly But I hope I'm like yeah exactly, but that's so powerful because I think one of the most fundamental pieces for this healing is the connection between The tension in the voice. Yeah.
And you felt that moving and it's like I love that you're doing that for even on a pigeon pose. But in our session, there was so much activation in your back. And of course there is, you broke your back. Yeah.
Right, so there's still the physical trauma, the remembrance in the body. And over ten years ago. And I've done work on it, you know, but there's still these layers.
Yeah. But it's fascinating. I mean, we were just talking off air, I got a tattoo years ago on my side and... I went to this clinic and it says love is all there is.
Oh. It was something that I wanted in a while. It's a little cliche. But, but... But my body accommodated by moving away from the space of the tattoo.
And because of that, it just moved my shoulders off center. My right shoulder is lower than my left. My tattoo is on my right side.
And I was like, holy moly. I'm talking to the guy. Heal's like, do you have tattoos? Because he's looking at the way I stand.
And I go, yeah, how did you know? Heal goes, is there one right there? I go, how did you know?
Freaky. And I take off my shirt. And he's like, yeah, right there.
And he goes, look at your shoulder. And he's telling me the story of my body. But essentially, it's that my body remembered the pain and trauma of the tattoo.
Right? It's like, oh no, this isn't happening again. You know, we're ready if it happens again.
So injuries, it's like we forget those emotions in the physical trauma too. Car accidents, injuries, whatever it is. And for me, a big part of the experience of breaking my back was that I realized there's, you know, I got physio afterwards, I got x-rays to check everything was fine.
But there was no system in place to help me deal with the emotional. Nobody came to me and was like, Jesse, you just went through something traumatic. So I'm going to teach you a few things. I'm going to teach you how to shake. We're going to have a little ceremony.
Healre's how you should journal. Nothing. And so I hope in the future, this is a space I really want to go into as well. I think it's fascinating.
I would love to set up a little course for, OK, you just went through spine surgery. Healre are some things you can do to help your body move that. Because I know that all of my mental health issues would have gone so much better so much quicker. had I had these tools. Had you had the support.
But I was 19. I was living in London. I didn't know any people who were doing not super mainstream medicine. So it was super lonely. Increasing the accessibility.
Yeah. That's what, but that's where it's moving. It's free and it's easy. Yeah, it's free and easy. There's a convergence of your work and my work.
I know. And it'll be at some point soon. It'll be at some point soon. The Blood Glucose Emotional Healaling Course or something. Yes, please, please, please.
We got something coming for the people. When's the book coming out? May 2nd. Okay, and tell us a little bit about what we're going to find. We got the clues on here, but what's in there?
So my first book that came out last year, Last year, you know, big success and a lot of messages I started getting from people were, okay, Jesse, I get the science. I think I'm having glucose spikes and I want to change my life, but could you please move in with me and help me actually do it? And so this second book, The Glucose Goddess Method, I envision it to be me moving into your house for four weeks and helping you fast track to steady glucose levels.
So it's a four-week, four-step program, essentially. Week one, we look at breakfast. We fix the breakfast situation.
We go from sweet to savory. Week two, we add vinegar once a day. Week three, we add veggie starters once a day. And week four, we add movement for 10 minutes once a day.
The four most important hacks. And so by the end of week four, you're having a savory breakfast, you're having a veggie starter once a day, you're having vinegar, and you're moving 10 minutes. Your blood sugar...
It's completely transformed forever. I love that. And because I'm a scientist and I wanted to get more data, of course all the hacks are backed by big scientific studies that I didn't do, done by scientists across the world.
But I was like, hmm, what if I ran my own little pilot experiment? So I had the great chance of recruiting 2,700 people in October to go through the glucose goddess method. And I'm going to share the results with you because they're so stunning. Please.
Okay, so after the four-week glucose goddess method, 90% of people are less hungry, 89% of people reduce their cravings, 77% of people have more energy, 67% of people are happier, 58% are sleeping better, 58% improved their mental health with glucose hacks, 46% improved their skin in four weeks. 41% of people improved their diabetes in four weeks and finally 35% of people improved their hormonal health. We had three glucose goddess method babies.
Three babies. Three babies. Three women who had been told that they would never be able to have babies naturally because they were not ovulating, they had PCOS, got pregnant. I love that. Because when you fix your glucose you fix so many parts of yourself.
One being your fertility situation. And my favorite stat of them all is that 99% of people at the end of the method said they would continue this forever. So to me this is like, okay, I found it.
I found the on-ramp to the steady glucose freeway. You know, that's how it feels. Super easy, no calorie counting, no restrictions. You just add the hacks, the rest of the time, you do whatever the heck you want.
If you want to eat Snickers, you eat Snickers. No problem. Seriously, you just add the gentle giants as the hacks over these four weeks, and you just sit back, relax, and just feel the energy.
Feel yourself transform. I love that. I love that.
Man, I love those numbers. Those are great, great numbers. And hundreds of beautiful recipes in there. Again, all six ingredients or less, all from so much love on my end, and just gorgeous, gorgeous work. Listen, there's so much growth and success in your work because it comes from the heart.
It does. Listen, I was in the jungles of Ecuador doing ayahuasca. And One thing that it told me is there is no success, truly, if it doesn't come from the heart. Your work has to come from the heart because people are going to feel it.
And that's how you transform lives. So it is without a question that your work comes from the heart. I feel you on the second book. It's from the heart. It really is.
And you know, I'm like, it's really my baby. Like every single detail and every single photo, every single word on every single recipe. Everything. How I organized everything. The testimonials I put in the book.
Because many stories, I love having the community in there. All the people in the pilot experiment have their names printed on pages 272 to 276 of the book, you know? It's just, it's transformative.
You open it and you're like, fuck, I'm gonna do this. Like it's so easy and you feel like you're part of this group. I love it. I love it, mate. May 2nd, and we're all starting together on May 22nd.
So get the book pre-order, and then May 22nd, we all start the four-week method together. That's the community four-week method. Okay. I love it.
Thank you so much. How do people find you? GlucoseGoddess on Instagram. If you ain't following her, you probably are, but if you ain't following her, you need to go follow the charts, the information, the bite-sized stuff.
Man, that's how I found you. I'm happy that we got number two on the books. Next time you're in LA, we'll do number three.
Next time, then number four, number five. You can take a residency over here. I love it. I love your energy. Thank you so much.
Thank you, Christian. All right. Look at this. Beautiful. Kept it on the whole time.
Beautiful. Thank you so much. Thanks, darling.
Fantastic. Beautiful. Thanks. Healarts.
Healarts. Yeah. Now the topic of cookware was one of my first shows I ever did in 2019. And as I said before, it's time to bring it up to date.
It's an important one because cookware is something we're readily interacting with every single day. Now think about the last time you or someone in your house used cookware. It's probably fairly recently, right? Well, the issue with cookware is the chemicals, the chemicals that are leached. Some chemicals are known to cause damage to our hormones, our immune system, our nervous system.
And we pee them out fairly quick. Things like BPA, polystyrene, styrene that are found in cookware. But others stay in our body a little bit longer.
Healavy metals are some chemicals that are notorious to be in cookware. Aluminum is one of them. 200 different biological reactions in the body. Aluminum can really disrupt so much of our... metabolism, especially for energy.
Then we have things like lead, cadmium, nickel, copper. These are all heavy metals that bioaccumulate in our tissues. They don't just stay in the blood.
We pee them out. We poop them out. It doesn't work that way.
It stays and bioaccumulates for a long term, especially the more we're exposed to it. Things like the brain and the bones and the heart and the kidneys and the liver are susceptible to it. And what happens is when they're in the body, they bioaccumulate, causing inflammation and can cause damage. tissue damage, immune damage, nervous system damage.
So something that we really need to be aware of, particularly because if we're getting in low doses over time, we have to make sure we're removing most of the stuff that are giving those exposures. It's not going to affect you in the first year, but maybe 10, 15 years down the road. But one of the most notorious and concerning chemicals that come from cookware is the non-stick phenomenon, right?
I would avoid non-stick pans, just like I said in the first show, but here's why. Let's go into a little bit more depth. PIFAs, I mentioned this a while ago.
I spoke about these polyfluorinated chemicals. And I went in depth on the water show too, and even the air fryer show. PIFAs chemicals have been used in Teflon and nonstick pans for many years now.
It's what creates the inner coating material of the nonstick cookware that makes it easy to cook with and clean. And this unique polymer coating prevents food from sticking and really crusting on there. The stuff that makes you really frustrated when you're washing, right?
And PFAS, these chemicals, as I mentioned in many shows, are nasty chemicals. They are forever chemicals, meaning they stay in our environment for a really long time, many, many years, thousands of years. And it's a group of chemicals, and there's thousands of them, that they don't just break down.
They wreak havoc on not only the environment, but our bodies. They've been known to affect the immune system, the thyroid. They cause cancer.
They are connected to low birth weight, and they're present in 99% of us, right? It's been around. It's one of the... Biggest travesties in environmental medicine is the PFAS phenomenon, particularly how it got into our environment.
And it's been detected in rivers, oceans, air near cities, as well as even remote areas. Even found it on Mount Everest. And the thing about these is they stay in your body up to 10 years.
So the more you can avoid this chemical, the better. Because we know it's connected to increased cholesterol, low birth weight in infants, decreased responses to any vaccine, wherever you stand on that, high blood pressure, and a higher risk for certain cancers. Teflon, which is originally comprised of two PFAS chemicals, PTFE and PFOA.
That was the patented formula for their nonstick technology decades ago. And it's come under fire because it's been unsafe for humans. And we know that PFOA has a toxic effect. We found that out.
Probably causes cancer. But the concern has been with PFOA that it increases the risk of certain tumors, as I mentioned. Cancer, but liver, testicles, mammary glands, the breasts, right? Pancreas, we've seen it in animals, and it has an effect on the human body.
Some of these studies have suggested that an increased risk of testicular cancer was found with PFOA exposure. Studies have also suggested a possible link to kidney cancer and thyroid cancer, as well as prostate, bladder, and ovarian cancer. But not all the studies found direct links. And yes, we need a little bit more research, which is why it was phased out in 2013. But the other half is still there in Teflon, PTFE. But the concern with PTFE is that when it overheats, they contain ultra-fine particles that when we inhale them can initiate an inflammatory response, even at low doses.
And this can cause oxidative injury to our lungs, all the mucous membranes, even the eyes. So there was a study published in Toxicology and Applied Pharmacology. And they showed the phenomenon of the Teflon flu. That was shown when people inhaled the smoke, the PTFE smoke, and they displayed symptoms that mimic the flu. Now, if you use Teflon, Are you going to die?
No. I used it in college. I'm alive, okay?
But I want you to think long-term. Is this something that you really want to keep in your kitchen? Especially when you run the risk of respiratory oxidation, ultimately respiratory damage, and affecting other tissues.
If the pan is used improperly, let's say you forgot you had it on, it was overheating, a lot of smoke, that's a big risk, right? Especially that high heat over time. You want to make sure you turn the fan on.
So pans... usually corrode when it's under high heat, acidic conditions, or salty food. So be mindful if you're married to Teflon or any non-stick.
But I would actually recommend just moving away. So here are the pans that you need to stay away from. As I mentioned before, Teflon, the fake non-stick ceramic-coated metal ones, aluminum, low-quality stainless steel, I'll go into that in a minute, and copper.
But what about those ceramic-coated non-stick pans? You know, the our places of the world, the always pans, the caraways, the green pans. So aside from their stylish and soothing colors, and their marketing dollars, and their influencer deals, these ceramic-coated pans, although PFAS-free, are crap. They're not really eco-friendly. And although no PFAS chemicals are found, they test for it, they still run the risk of leaching chemicals.
They contain polymers that could leach. They don't retain heat very well. They're not scratch-resistant. They have poor durability. You can't put them in the fridge or the oven.
And on average, a ceramic-coated cookware is only going to last for about a year. It's not really green or environmentally conscious. Go to Facebook Marketplace and see how many people are selling their stylish pans.
They don't last. They look cool, but they don't last. So avoid these fake non-stick ceramic coated metal pans. It's greenwashing at its finest. And here are better options for cookware.
So what pans are best? You want to invest in good pots and pans. And you don't want to cut corners, particularly because your food is coming into contact with it. Number one, some of my favorite ones are ceramic.
They are the most delicate ones of all, but they overall are the best. I like it because it's non-reactive. It can withstand high temperature. They're not adding chemicals to it to make it non-stick for better or for worse.
You don't have to worry about anything leaching into the food from the glaze to the core. It contains no PFOA, PTFEs, no other PFAs, no other glues, polymers, coating, or dyes. It's really good. I like the, I have. a ceramic one.
I like mine. They chip. I'm not going to lie. They can chip. I even have a ceramic tea kettle and it chipped.
So it's something to be mindful of, especially if you get rough with your food. 1B, cast iron. This is non-toxic.
It's more durable than ceramic. It's versatile. It's naturally non-stick.
As a note, it will leach iron. So it can be enough to raise your blood iron levels. So it's important to be mindful of it, especially if you have hemochromatosis. for A or B reason or just high levels of iron or ferritin, you need to be aware of this. I also like the enamel cast iron ones because they won't leach anything.
And number two is the stainless steel pots and pans. This is a really good one, but they're not all created equal. Stainless steel is a blend of iron, carbon, chromium, and what makes the metal stainless is that formula.
But when it comes to this cookware, stainless steel is most popular. Because it works with all the ingredients and all different cooking methods. Most of you have stainless steel, probably in your pantry right now. But some of them have higher chromium and nickel than others. And some of them have more heavy metals.
Nickel is the one that is most concerning. And it will likely leach into your food. So there's different numbers on stainless steel. There's 1810, 188, and 180. So if you're in the business and wanting to get a stainless steel pot or pan, Healre's what the numbers mean.
1810 means 10% nickel and 18% chromium. Actually 16% chromium, 2% molybdenum. Now for 1810, it is the strongest grade of stainless steel. It's anti-corrosive, resistant to pitting.
It's the most expensive one, but also has the highest amount of nickel, which puts you at the most amount of risk of being exposed to that nickel over time. 188 is 10% chromium, 8% nickel, but it's less resistant to... corrosion, less sensitive to heat and other types of steel.
It's vulnerable to water and salt over time, and it's less durable than the 1810. As you would imagine, 18-0, 18% chromium, 0% nickel, is the least durable, but you have no nickel in there. So this is why not all stainless steel is created equal, because yes, you can get the least amount of exposure from chromium to nickel, 18-0, but it's not going to be very versatile and it will degrade over time. So stainless steel is good, but it's not the best.
And there's actually another form of stainless steel that was developed that is stronger. And it's called 316 Ti titanium and it utilizes titanium. And this one is more resistant to salt and acid. So at the end of the day, it's up to your preference.
What's your budget? How long do you want these to last for? If aesthetics means something, then you might want to get the ceramic coated ones that'll last only a year. What you do is what you do, but this information is for you.
I would always recommend to get one of the top three that I mentioned. Make sure that the company is inspecting and testing for the presence of heavy metals. Make sure that it's FDA approved and meets California Proposition 65 standards. So you know that you're getting a high quality pot or pan.
I won't go into any of the brands, but again, you know how to shop for them. You know which ones to look for. And best of luck getting yourself a new set of pans.
Don't go crazy on it. Take some time, be intentional, and let this be a long-term thing. All right. I hope you enjoyed that.
episode. We had fantastic information coming from Jesse. We went in on pots and pans.
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