hello everyone welcome to the art of Catholic I am joined today by one of my favorite people in the world his name is dr. Brandt Petrie he is the distinguished research professor or a distinguished research professor at the Agustin Institute in Denver Colorado although he resides in Louisiana and Brandt is the author of lots of different books that I'm sure a lot of you have read including Jesus and the Jewish roots of the Eucharist one of my favorites a case for Jesus which my wife just swears by and I mean that a positive sense and a whole host of other books he's really one of the best if not the best Catholic theology writer out there I love his stuff and the sales of his books prove it and if you haven't if you haven't indulged yourself and read any of Brandt's works you really need to and today we're gonna discuss his latest one which I'm head-over-heels in love with as well and it's called Jesus and the Jewish roots of Mary and as you guys know I have a deep devotion to Our Lady this book opened a lot of doors for me in my own relationship with Mary and seeing her in a whole new light and I'm really thrilled to have Brant on the show to to unpack some of these insights that he had that and that I'm sure can deepen your devotion to Our Lady as well so Brant welcome to the art of Catholic thanks for having me Matt it's great to be back with you man you now you've been on the show several times and some people have heard your story but one of the things I wanted to ask you with regard to to Mary itself you stopped practicing the faith for a while back in your earlier years and I know that you had a deep devotion to Our Lady when you were a kid did that suffer at all as you stopped practicing the faith did you know what was your view of Mary during that time frame yeah that's a great question so in a nutshell I'm a cradle Catholic grew up in south Louisiana really Cajun Catholic country one of my earliest memories is my mother taking us to our my great grandmother's house and like my great grandmother my grandmother and my mother and the kids they're there they're sitting around the house praying the rosary why would kids you know play on the ground what not and so I I prayed the Rosary with my family but on my own from a young age my little brought my big brother and I used to pray it at night where we go to sleep and it was a just a poor part of my life I had a devotion to Mary I saw her as not just the mother of Jesus but as my mother I had zero objections to anything rich taught about her I believed in her Immaculate Conception her sinlessness or assumption into heaven and you know I'd light a candle to her and ask her to pray for me we go to Mass and that kind of thing core was a special day and that was the way it was when I was young but as I got older when I met my wife Elizabeth when we were in our teenage years she aground up Southern Baptist and her she and her family had lots of questions about the Catholic faith and one of the areas that they had the most questions about and the most the strongest objections to was our beliefs and our practices with regard to Mary you know so questions like you know how can you believe that Mary is sinless when the Bible Romans 3 says they were all sinned and fall short of the glory of God why do you Catholics worship Mary when God you know God alone is to be worshiped isn't that idolatry you know praying to Mary isn't that worshipping her and isn't that idolatry and unless other things like you know why do you believe she was assumed into heaven and Bible doesn't say anything about that and at the time Elizabeth was you know we were very we were we were friendly about the questions but she she did press me with these important questions and and she's really pretty and she's really smart and I really want to stay her boyfriend so I figure I'd better I'd better you know like learn my faith and have some answers to their questions so this all kind of came to a head really when we went to meet her her pastor as we were preparing for marriage and and and he pummeled me for we still sounds like this 15 minute meeting and it turned into a three-hour theological wrestling match where he pulled me with all these questions about the Pope and Mary and the Eucharist and all those kind things and actually I'd had some answers for him to other things like on the Pope or on the real president ease in the Eucharist I was able to find biblical text to support you know the foundations of what we believe is Catholics but that day this is probably in like 94 1994 so was really the beginning of like a crack in the windshield of my my Catholic faith because while I could answer certain objections about the Eucharist but with texts like John chapter 6 you know my flesh is real food my blood is real drink um I did not have the same kind of Epiphany when it came to Mary because when I went back to the New Testament and started looking for Catholic beliefs about Mary in the New Testament I didn't find them like there was the New Testament ever say Mary was immaculately conceived no does it mention her bodily assumption in heaven does it give an heir a a narration of that event no right does it does it does it say all have sinned and fall short of the glory god yes we're only three is very clear about that right and then also too you know just the whole question of Mary's perpetual virginity why would we believe that I mean this is one of those doctrines that I think that even a lot of Catholics they say well I believe it but I go to Mass and I hear about the Brothers of Jesus and that really sounds like you know Mary had other children and and after all if she was married why would she remain a virgin in the context of marriage I mean is there something wrong with human sexuality didn't God say be fruitful and multiply so all those questions are kind of swirling around in my head and I didn't find good answers for them and so like that little crack in the windshield sort to spread and within a couple of years I just it my childhood devotion to Mary and affirmation of those teachings I had basically kind of like faded and got snuffed out and and and so yes when during the period where I wasn't going to wrath mass regularly I also had stopped praying the rosary and not only stopped confessing those those teachings about Mary but I had genuine difficulties believe in them because I wasn't sure how to reconcile them with what I found in the New Testament right and you know you mentioned a lot of these common objections that converts their potential converts have to the faith with regard to Miriam we're gonna cool off some of those for me the scales came off my eyes when I started to view Scripture a different way you know when you start yoga Scripture from a tip a logical standpoint you see how the old is connected to the new and you start to see that even though the New Testament doesn't say these specific things about Mary once you start to read Scripture and see it as a whole you see that she's woven into the fabric from beginning to end but you make that's go ahead go ahead no no you you got you make an interesting point in the very beginning of this book and kind of context for this book it's not just a matter for you of seeing the old and the new together you say you got to go a little further you have to have a first century Jewish context and to really understand Mary there are a lot of Catholics were like well listen dr. smartypants I don't have a first century view in their Jewish context I get her I understand her so tell us why okay so um I'll back up to the image you just used of like a thread okay Pope Benedict actually said this years ago he said that the the New Testament portrait of Mary if you think of it as a tapestry hmm he said it's woven entirely out of threads from the Old Testament right so in other words as I was researching the book as I was studying over the years one of things that I noticed consistently is that every book on Mary or every article on Mary that rejected Catholic beliefs in her sinlessness or her assumption or her perpetual jeanna T as unbiblical invariably every one of those books only looks at what the New Testament says about her in isolation they don't look at the New Testament in light of the Old Testament they don't look at the New Testament portrait of Mary in the same way they do with Jesus everybody knows that if you're gonna study Jesus in the New Testament you have to recognize he's not just the Messiah he's the new Adam he's the new Moses right we're Christians all agree that we should look at Jesus typologically that the New Testament is hidden in the old and the oldest revealed in the new and you look at him in light of the whole Bible but when it comes to Mary all of a sudden we just isolate the New Testament text over an Oregon and we tend not to actually ask wait what Old Testament passages is the New Testament author like Luke or John what are they alluding to in the Old Testament and what do those allusions reveal about the New Testament portrait of who Mary is just like the New Testament portrait of who Jesus is so if you just read the surface of the New Testament you might come to the conclusion Jesus the Messiah Jesus the Son of God or Jesus the king of Israel but if you read in light of the whole Bible you're gonna realize he isn't just those things he's the new Adam he's the new manna from heaven he's inaugurating a new Exodus he's the new Moses and the same things true for the typology of Mary once you back up and you look at the New Testament picture of Mary in light of the Old Testament which she discover is she isn't just a mother of Jesus she is the new e she's being depicted as the new Ark of the Covenant she's the new queen mother of the kingdom of God because in the Old Testament the Queen wasn't the Kings wife it was his mother right so if Jesus is the king then she's the queen and then also you start looking at the evidence for vows of virginity that's in the Old Testament even within marriage with regard to Mary's perpetual virginity and so on and so forth so all the way down the line and actually even at one chapter at the end o Mary as the new Rachel that's when I think yeah so so basically what I'm trying to show here is that as long as you'd look at the news adjustment in isolation you'll never see the biblical basis of Catholic beliefs about Mary but if you look at the whole Bible all sudden it starts to become clear and especially if you look at the whole Bible in light of ancient Jewish traditions about what was expected regarding Eve and the Ark of a covenant and the Queen Mother and the mother of the Messiah I mean almost nobody pays attention to traditions about the mother of the Messiah well I do and that's what I was doing Jesus in the Jewish with the Eucharist I wanted to make those available people who might not be familiar with those sources on their own who might not be familiar with the Dead Sea Scrolls or even with some of their Old Testament books like second Maccabees and put all these Jewish Scriptures and traditions on the page and say how do they inform what the New Testament says about Mary and how did they explain why ancient Christians 2nd 3rd 4th 5th centuries did believe Mary was sinless Mary was assumed in heaven and Mary was a queen of the kingdom of God so when you're talking about there being a first century Jewish context you mean in a way that what the New Testament authors are writing we have to put themselves ourselves in their place because they're assuming things about the Old Testament that we've that's exactly we have to come to understand that's exactly right all the first Christians all the first generation Christians are all Jewish Christians and so if we want to read the Old Testament like they read it and read what the New Testament says like they read it we've got to try to you know 21st century Gentile glasses and put on like first entry Jewish eyes and and not just try to see Jesus through Jewish eyes everybody agrees on that these days we if you have to see Jesus through Jewish eyes you also try to have to have to try to see Mary through Jewish eyes if you want to understand ancient Christian beliefs about her let's zoom in on one of those things right now and this is one of the big this was an eye-opener for me when I was coming into the church in dealing with Mary and that's Mary is the Ark of the new covenant and yeah new Ark of the Covenant and she she is so man she's such a part of the story of salvation history and when you look at well I don't I don't want to jump into I want you to explain it so what I want you to first do it first let's talk about the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament so people have a little bit of context for what that is and let's talk about how Luke shows Mary in particular as this new Ark absolutely okay so look right before I do that let me just say one thing in order understand Mary's the new Ark you actually have to understand who Jesus is first and and that's true of every chapter in the book I always start with Jesus so the first thing we have to realize is in the New Testament Jesus comes into the world not just to atone for sin but to inaugurate a new Exodus this is very clear explicit in Luke chapter 9 when he's on the mountain of Transfiguration with Moses and Elijah and it says they were discussing the Exodus he was to accomplish in Jerusalem right and so this is the new Exodus spoken of by the prophets and Jesus also describes himself in John's Gospel chapter 6 as the new manna from heaven and any first century Jew would have known that in the Old Testament the manna was put inside of the Ark of the Covenant so if your first entry Jew and Jesus is the Messiah he's the new Moses he's inaugurating a new Exodus he's the new manna you the first question gonna have is well if the new Exodus is coming then where is the Ark of the Covenant right because you in the Old Testament the ark is literally central to the exodus from Egypt so after the Israelites get out of Egypt in the book of Exodus in chapter 20 they received the Ten Commandments we all know that but then in chapter 24 and following after they are enter into the covenant with God on Mount Sinai the first thing God does is give them commands for how to build the tabernacle and the Ark of the Covenant which was this basically a golden box that contains within it the tablets and commandments a golden urn of manna and the staff of Aaron and it was it was basically a earthly sign of the dwelling place of God on earth it was put inside of the holy of holies it was made of gold as a symbol of its divinity and when the tabernacle of Moses completed the way the Israelites knew that God was with them is that the glory cloud which in rabbinic tradition was called the Shekinah is the pillar fire and smoke right the glory cloud comes down and descends and overshadows the Ark in the tabernacle in Exodus chapter 40 and when that glory cloud overshadows the Ark it's a sign of God's dwelling with his people and then the exodus begins then it really begins where they start heading toward the promised land now if they are always like the ark always at the front right it always led always absolutely absolutely the ark always leads the way and in fact in the in the Old Testament it tells us that whenever the Israelites would go into battle with their enemies without the ark they would lose but if they went and the ark led the way they would win which is why the Nazis wanted it we don't mean for us today we bury paint our rosaries that's what that means for today well that's actually I'm gonna come back to that because it's true it so the same as well see if if this is true if the New Testaments depicting Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant right then in the spiritual warfare of the kingdom today she's gonna play just as central a role as the Ark in the Old Testament and if you go into battle without the are oh oh she's gonna you're gonna lose right so but I don't like ahead of ourselves just yet so keep that thought we may even come back to it at the end I would like to say about the Rosary and and in this connection but in any case so any Jew would have known that the ark was brought into the land david builds the temple he puts the ark in the Holy of Holies and there it remains in Jerusalem until the Babylonian exile when the Babylonians come in in the sixth century BC they destroyed the temple and they burn Jerusalem to the ground and unfortunately from the Old Testament Hebrew Bible one of the questions open is what happened to the ark right because it doesn't say that when the Babylonians like second Kings doesn't tell us that when they they the Babylonians took the implements on a temple it doesn't mention the ark is one of them so of course all these speculations arise well where is the Ark of the Covenant is it is it in Ethiopia you know Oracle not that not long ago it talked about the Newsies and stuff to guard but nobody can go in okay going because it's guarded by these monks no way they can see it so and you watch what the Discovery Channel you know TV shows you know the search for the ark yeah two hours later they string you along with all these commercials and then it being they're like oh sorry it's in this monastery we can't get in verify or falsify it sorry we just wasted two hours of your life you know that's you know a people I'm all these theories about it if you go to Babylon didn't go to ancient Egypt you know is it in Ethiopia isn't it a government warehouse somewhere that's what Steven Spielberg apparently knows and uh and the fascinating thing is as that as Catholics we don't actually have to even wonder about this because in the book of second Maccabees chapter 2 it actually tells us what happened to the ark that's right this is an ancient Jewish tradition a lot of Protestant Christians aren't familiar with this tradition about what happened in the ark because in the Catholic Old Testament and a lot of Catholics are familiar with this because it's in the Catholic oh yeah it tells us and tech Maccabees to that Jeremiah the Prophet was a priest in 2nd 6th century at the time of the Exile took the ark out of the temple before the Babylonians destroyed it and he brought it to Mount Nebo which is east of the Jordan we're River it's the mountain where Moses went up and saw the promised land and that Jerell I hid the ark in a cave and closed off the entrance and when the guys who were with him tried to mark it so they could find it again he said no place will remain he rebukes them he says no the place will remain unknown the location the Ark remained unknown until cloud reappears until the cloud of God's glory reappears and he shows his mercy at second Maccabees to verse 48 the play shall be unknown until the glory of the Lord and the cloud will appear right so once you know that Jewish tradition from second Maccabees if your first entry Jew and your you know that every year the day of atonement you go into that Holy of Holies but high priest goes in the Holy of Holies like Caiaphas he's supposed to sprinkle blood in the day of atonement on the ark but when he goes in he has to throw it on the ground the rabbi's tell us because in the first century AD the holy Holies is empty the principal sign of the presence of God with his people and the Covenant of Moses the Ark is gone right so everyone's waiting for the day when the Ark will reappear that will be a sign that the new Exodus has commenced when the Ark is when its location is revealed and the glory cloud overshadows it again so with all that background in mind if we turn to the Gospel of Luke and to the familiar story of the Annunciation and the visitation what's striking is Luke's narration of the Annunciation in chapter 1 verse 35 when the angel comes to Mary and says you know you're going to have a baby that's not all he says what he says is the Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the most high will overshadow you therefore the child to be born will be called holy the Son of God and the Greek word therefore overshadow is episod saying it's this it's it's a term that doesn't occur very frequently in Old Testament and it's used with reference to the glory cloud overshadowing the ark in exodus 40 so there's a precise verbal parallel here just as the glory cloud overshadowed the ark in the Old Testament so now it overshadows the Virgin Mary in the in the mystery of the conception of Jesus now and even Protestant scholars have recognized there's a that this is that Mary is being depicted through this as then like the new dwelling place of God's presence on earth rooting the conception of Jesus I'm sorry I'm wrong grant but in case any of our listeners or viewers go back and they read in Exodus about the they're going to see it the words in English has abode upon right right for in English is the same but it's the same word right that's right and remember yes the Luke is reading the Septuagint at the Greek Septuagint the Old Testament in Greek right so when he uses parallels with the Greek Old Testament they're always very significant and very telling so the overshadow in the New Testament is the same as abode upon back in Exodus this exact word that's the points name were in the Old Testament I don't remember exactly what it is in the RSV off the top mate but actually I thought in the RSV it was overshadow but maybe I'm wrong so in any case but it's the same word in Greek I know the Greek anyway so New Testament scholars recognize that Mary's being depicted as a new art now somebody might say oh that's that's interesting but is that all and but and if it was that if it was only that verb you might say well maybe maybe not but if you keep reading through the story of the visitation there were like five more parallels between Mary and the Ark in the Old Testament so for example in the book of second Samuel 6 when David brings the ark up to the Jerusalem it says David arose and went to the country of Judah to bring the art and in Luke it says Elizabeth I'm sorry Mary arose and went went to the hill country of Judah in the Old Testament when David encounters the ark he says how is it that the Ark of the Lord can come to me in the New Testament Elizabeth says how is it that the mother of my lord should come to me in the Old Testament I love this one David bleat before the Ark with great shouting kind of like Kevin Bacon and footless and uh David got loose before Elizabeth when she hears Mary's greeting the child John leaps in her womb and then she actually cries out with a loud shout and then terminology yeah that's right very good yeah the Greek terminology Luke uses there for the public a dense point this out is used with reference to liturgical shouting it takes place in the presence of the art so it's another one these like very technical specific terms that Luke is deliberately utilizing to allude to the art and then finally this one's the kicker for me just as the arc remain in the house of obed-edom three months in 2nd Samuel 6 Mary remains in the house of Zechariah for three months now why does it Luke say she remained until John was born because that's the implication six plus three right it's because he's deliberately echoing the arc in the Old Testament so if there was just one parallel maybe there's two and once you get to five like the coincidences mount here this moves beyond the realm of of just possibility - this is the most plausible reading of the text Luke who is very interested in the new Exodus is revealing that Mary herself is the new york of the company she's the new dwelling place of the holy spirit of the power of the Most High who has come upon her and overshadowed her in the conception of Jesus it's awesome and don't forget to that obed-edom the gittite was blessed because of the three months of the Ark of the Covenant in his house right and what did he call Mary write blessed are you right Blessed Mother so have it all kinds of different levels on these parallels that's fascinating stuff so you see all these different parallels in the Old Testament in the New Testament that informs what it is that we believe about Mary as Catholics and you have to look at it through that lens if you're gonna really understand who she is but let's be honest some Catholics go maybe a little too far right with how it is we view and we honor and we're supposed to be venerating Mary but maybe it goes a little far right you went before I became Catholic I was a missionary in Latin America I saw some pretty wild stuff down there and a lot of it revolved around Mary and I was already moving toward the church but I have to say a lot of it kind of it turned me off in a way because it seemed like a line had been crossed but we're very clear in church teaching of the difference between honoring Mary and the worship that we give to God correct absolutely I want to jump into that but can I make one last footnote to the ark thing of course and I just throw this yes before we shift because I wanted I want to make sure that people's the upshot of it oh so what's the upshot of Harry being the Ark I would say two things real quick first it reveals who Jesus is it's very important right all the Catholic beliefs about Mary are ultimately rooted what we believe about Jesus so if Mary's the new Ark of the Covenant then what does that mean then her body is the container of of Christ right the the one who's become flesh what does that reveal about who Jesus is well the old art contained what the Ten Commandments so the manna from heaven and the the staff of Aaron right so what does that reveal about Jesus he's the Word made flesh right not Tablas is so much flesh he's the bread from heaven he's the New Living bread whoever eats this will have eternal life and then he's the true priest of the New Covenant just like Aaron's the priest of the old now the priesthood and those three realities the word flesh may flesh the living manna from heaven and the priesthood are inside of her womb right so it's it's it's revealing who Jesus is on a deeper level as the facility Old Testament and it also leads to early Christians to the belief and Mary's bodily assumption because if she's the Ark of the Covenant and if Jesus the new Moses ascent and the high priest ascends into the new Holy of Holies in the heavenly temple then where does the Ark belong does the body of Mary because remember the Ark is not her soul it's her body right is does the body of Mary belong in a tomb moldering somewhere on earth or does the new Ark belong in the new tabernacle of the new temple in the heavenly Jerusalem will he was fitting that she would be brought into heaven do you want us aboard in Revelation then or what come back into devotion getting fast forward to Revelation then okay you have any doubts about this it's not just Luke it's revelation to the apocalypse of John chapter 12 and who actually chapter 11 verse 19 oh yeah yeah right which there are no chapters in the original Greek by the way yeah there's just it's just in fact there are not even periods or question marks or sentence divisions it's just words his words were there's no obstructional break in the narrative right now that's like texting no grammar no no anyway the sorry texting okay exactly so in revelation 11 19 john has this vision and he says that God's temple in heaven was opened and the Ark of his covenant appeared within his temple now pause if you are a first intro century Jew and you've been waiting for the ark for 600 years to find out where it is and then got John as its vision that the temple in heaven opens this is a big deal you because you see that the Ark is off they revealed but then as Craig Custer and other scholars and revelation point out the language used for the Ark immediately shifts to the same language for a woman who is a fake revealed our peers in heaven clothed with the Sun on her head a crown of twelve stars and moon beneath their feet and she of course is the mother of the Messiah she gives birth to the Messiah and so um the the question is will wait is this an ark is it a woman and who and where is the woman if the Ark is being revealed where's the Ark in holy Holies so where is this woman in the Holy of Holies it's a it's in other words it's kind of like two images superimposed on one another two symbols for the same reality the Ark and the woman both represent the same reality and you see it's Revelation the lamb and the child both represent Jesus the dragon the serpent both represent the devil is anything with the Ark and and and the woman and so ancient Christians several have saw this as a revelation of Mary's identity with the Ark of the Covenant she's in the heavenly Holy of Holies so though revelation 12 doesn't narrate the historical event of her bodily assumption to heaven it reveals the destiny of Mary and where she is not just in soul but in her body in the heavenly Holy of Holies and this becomes a foundation for ancient Christian belief in the east and the West for Mary's assumption into heaven the revelation 12 and let's also point out the fact that no one ever found Moses you know where's the grave of Moses right and what about that is what about either right we swept up that's right there are other there's there's precedents for it is the point there's precedents for for the idea of an assumption into heaven or paradise or to another realm that's absolutely the case and it is it is interesting if you look at and scholars who have researched ancient Christian the cult of the Saints in other words the cult meaning like a right a negative thing but like the veneration of the saints in in the old church there are all kinds of relics from the beginning of the martyrs and things like that but there are zero veneration of any relics of Mary's body which is a magical mission when you compare all the other saints oh yeah because they have a war so that they had wars over these relics and there's no there's no hint of of Mary like anyone arguing over Mary's bones anywhere in the east and the West that's really important to both eastern and western things so yeah so when you put in other words in a nutshell when you put the Book of Revelation and the gospel Luke together the doctrine of Mary's bodily assumption heaven flows out of her identity as the new Ark of the Covenant right that's the biblical foundation for the doctrine the Assumption man okay so let's now that we have all that okay I just want to make that you know and don't forget the woman was caught up to God and his throne in Revelation 12 right so there's some there's some narrative all right you don't have like a narrative like a gospel near it exact same way you have the resurrection but this is what leads people like apologists of Rome Athanasian bags Andrea to talk about Mary as the arc you get John Demasi and all these other fathers who talk about her assumption it's or Dormition you'll hear a different language for it but they all of them they know Mary's the arc like they assume it and for us it's a wow that's news like this is a new thing so so Mary's this huge deal in the faith and devout Catholics are all over Mary yeah right and and yet let's go back to what we were talking about before yeah sometimes saturation yeah they're attacked exaggeration so let's talk about that and maybe give an example of some really intense exaggerations and what happened yes okay so this is a very important it's not just in contemporary times that some Christians will practice devotions to Mary that cross a line right it actually happened in the ancient church as well in epifanio st. upper faintness an Eastern Christian writer in the fourth century at the end of this long book called the pan re on him it's called the basket it's a basket of heresies like all these hundreds of heresies yeah he ends with two heresies about Mary and one of them is was a group called the collar idioms from the Greek word cholera which is a word for a loaf of bread and the collar idioms were an ancient Christian group that were not just honoring Mary as the mother of Jesus or as queen of the kingdom of God they were worshiping her as divine because they were offering the sacrifice of the Eucharist to Mary they were offering loaves of bread to marry and epifanio's immediately condemned this as idolatry and as a heresy right because only God God and God alone is worthy of worship and but I think yeah Latvia that's right and and so the Fanny says that we can give a tamato honor to Mary but we worship he uses prose kaneto actually and we worship God alone now I bring that example up because it's really helpful because to this day Catholics will sing hymns to Mary we will talk to Mary and ask her to pray for us because she's she you know some people say why do you talk to Mary she's dead I'm like um no she's alive in heaven that's why we call it eternal life why she's alive but so and and we honor her and we we venerate her as the mother of God and his Queen and things like that and so people say well isn't that worshiping her but the one thing we don't in answer's no we do not worship her because the one thing Catholics and Orthodox Christians by the way who have deep devotion and veneration of Our Lady one things Catholics and Orthodox Christians east and west don't do we do not offer the sacrifice of the Eucharist to Mary we do not offer the sacrifice of the mass to Mary that would be idolatry right because the essence of worship in antiquity is sacrifice now it's really hard for Christians who come from non sacrificial traditions to understand since that like my wife grew up Southern Baptists um you just heard as an example in her church worship was singing hymns of praise to God right worship was talking to God in prayer and they didn't have a priesthood they didn't have an altar and their worship service didn't culminate in the end an act of sacrifice right as we refer to the mass as a sacrifice now we can't get in a whole debate over that that's a that's a fundamental difference so for her coming from the Baptist tradition when she comes in our church and we're singing hymns to Mary or we're talking to Mary in prayer it feels like were worshiping her because that's what worship was in her tradition but in the Catholic tradition in the Orthodox tradition the pinnacle of worship that's offered to God alone is sacrifice and we never offer the sacrifice of mass to Mary so I bring that up because it's a great example even in the early church there were these exaggerations but they were immediately condemned by Catholics in both the east and the West FF Aeneas in the east and at the st. Ambrose in the in the West said we don't worship Mary we just honor her we only worship God so some Christians back then even misunderstood and and and and and cross the line and but they were immediately condemned and so I just think that that's an important context for us to understand Mary's identity and our devotion to her as as Catholics and Christians and what happened to the caller idiots I don't know what happened exactly that's point they're gone yeah they were they were condemned immediately and and they disappeared right yeah that's right because it wasn't an authentic expression of Christianity yeah that's right and that's why no one knows about them today no it sounds like one in the Star Trek episode you know like a technical idiot you know medical ourian's from Star Wars Christians but at the same time it's important to know why did they make these exaggerations well because they they recognized that Mary wasn't just an ordinary woman right if Jesus is the king of the kingdom of God and in the Old Testament the queen was his mother then by definition Mary if as mother of Jesus the New Testament is the queen-mother of the kingdom and if she's the queen like think here of Revelation 12 the woman clothed with the Sun who's the mother of the Messiah she's wearing a crown of 12 stars right now I know in our day Miss Universe can wear a crown Miss America can wear a crown maybe Vanna White wears a crown whatever but it doesn't necessarily mean she doesn't use a coin have you ever seen Vanna with the crown on turning letters your point is well-taken Oh Bret because even though so your point is well-taken that even though the color it Ian's worshipped Mary in a sense it's yet Boake to the fact that there was a very high degree Mary and view Ocean even in the ancient church and this is nothing this I'm not a Catholic Catholic and you know that's it's not it's not a medieval Distortion it's not a later development there is there we have prayers to Mary from the 2nd and 3rd centuries ad honoring her not just as Mother of God but Christians like recognizing her we have ancient Christian writers who refer to her as Queen and the reason they do that is because they understood that if Jesus was the king then she is the queen and if she is the queen and we're members of the kingdom then it's fitting that we would honor her and that we would ask for her intercession well let's pivot to to something that I found to be one of the most fast and I keep saying this this is the most fascinating part of this book there are a lot of really fascinating parts of Jesus and the Jewish roots of Mary but I think that your discussion of the dogma of her perpetual virginity was one of the most eye-opening for me because you brought to light some things I had never heard before or seen before in any book I'm Mary and of course perpetual virginity is one of the four dogmas along with the assumption of the Immaculate Conception and Mary's role as a mother of God and Catholics are bound to believe these things and they cause potential converts all kinds of fits yeah any clause this really fits for me right yeah but it says basically that Mary was a virgin before during and after the birth of Christ and there are all kinds of apologetic issues that you know Matthew 1:25 you know Joseph knew or not until she had Oceanus what we do with the word until and maybe you can touch on that for just a second so we can kind of get rid of some of of the more common objections and then let's pivot to the Book of Numbers where you make us really cool stuff okay so yeah so if you've discover researched or investigated the debate over Mary's perpetual virginity before you'll know that the kind of the two main objections are the existence of brothers of Jesus right in the New Testament right like the brothers Jesus and then the second one is Matthew 1:25 where Matthew says after Joseph took Mary into his home he knew her not until she bore a son and people will say aha look it says until she bore a son therefore it necessarily means that they did have relations after she bore a son therefore she was you know not perpetually virgin right and so the the quick response to both of those is as scholars have recognized for many many centuries since jerome wrote against the against ho videos in the fourth century the word brother yes primarily it means brother that's its primary meaning like a broad brother the child of the same mother or father however it has a broader connotation and in context you have to look at what it means because it can also just mean a relative or a cousin of some sort it can even be used to refer to an uncle and so what I show in the book is if you look at Mark's Gospel mark chapter 6 in mark chapter 15 mark himself lets you know that the primary meaning of brother doesn't work because two of the guys called brothers of Jesus James and Joseph are identified in mark 15 as the children of another woman not the mother of Jesus but another woman called Mary who in the Gospel John 19 is identified as the wife of Clopas and these two James and Joseph James and Simon and Judas to James the Simon went on to become bishops of Jerusalem and they were widely known in Eusebius and hedges suppose as Jesus's cousins and also notice they weren't the children of st. Joseph because they're known as the sons of Clopas right that's important there's another tradition that they were you know well maybe they were Jesus children Joseph's children from a previous marriage but the problem is mark tells us that their mother is alive at the time of the resurrection so if it can't be Joseph's children because Joseph then wouldn't be a widower he would be polygamous that's a whole dish can I say some real quick here what is one of things that came to mind you can disabuse me if I'm totally wrong on this but it came to mind that if ya related to Jesus in that way then they have a kind of they have some royal blood flowing through them there would be they would be part of the tribe of Judah and of the house of David in the same way that Joseph was because Joseph he's part of the royal family right connecting the Davidic line right that's and isn't it interesting that they are they're the first two bishops of Jerusalem yes you know which black brush was the seat of the kingdom that's exactly right yeah they're honoured and and you can read if you read the early church fathers the family of Jesus extended family of Jesus Richard baulkham is actually written on this although we disagree on some of the particulars what we're honored with in the Jerusalem church because of their familial connections with with jeezum cells so this isn't yeah these weren't and these church fathers saying that these were the cousins of Jesus they're not defending Mary's perpetual virginity you see just doesn't say anything about that had you syphilis doesn't say anything about that they're just telling you who the bishops of Jerusalem were they were James his cousin and Simon his cousin and the sons of Clopas his uncle so that's part of it so that III deal with that in the chapter in depth and that's kind of something people have argued before although I go into a little more depth the other verse Matthew 125 is the one again since ancient times and Protestants crits collars will agree on this to like Davies and Allison their commentary on Matthew the word until simply not apply one way or the other whether that Joseph and Mary had relations it is simply meant to tell you the time that they didn't have relations it between conception and birth until birth and you can see this in Matthew's Gospel because later on the gospel Jesus says you know the Lord said to my lord sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool same word hello's in greek now that doesn't mean that after Jesus conquers all his enemies the father kicks and thrown like you can sit at my right hand until your enemies are defeated but after that you're out of here I like the one I like that is super easy for people to understand - is David's first wife Michael or me Kyle right she had no children until the day that she died second samuel 6 same Greek word Michal saw David's wife had no children until the day of her death that does not mean she started having baby so although Matthew you know what's interesting please tell me first of all yes that's really cool so the very first thing is what no one ever asks is um why does Joseph abstain from relations yes their wedding no yeah everyone says well why would Mary remain a virgin if she's married I'll put you one further why would Joseph abstain from relations with his not wife on the wedding night that's right and for the whole nine months after there's nothing in the virginal conception that would require Joseph to abstain to happen to practice abstinence within marriage in fact the whole point of the wedding night for Jews was the consummation of the marriage because the patrol that would take place a year before they're already legally married to have relations during the betrothal period is adultery in Jewish law and the whole the only point of the wedding ceremony like the coming together is for the bride and the groom to consummate the marriage on the wedding night that's what the seven days we're celebrating right but the very verse in Matthew 125 people use as evidence against perpetual virginity is the verse that shows us that Mary Joseph do not have an ordinary marriage because on their wedding night they don't consummate that is that is shocking that's unprecedented and Matthew 1:25 gives us evidence for Joseph's abstinence and that it raises a whole host of questions now once you've got that in mind then you can pivot to Luke chapter 1 because in Luke chapter 1 there's something else strange about their marriage from Mary's point of view when the anvil appears to Mary and says you're going to have a baby and Mary's betrothed she doesn't say oh praise be to God which is what any normal woman would say who's engaging about to get married I mean yeah first comes love then comes marriage then comes the baby right that's just how it everyone knows that but everyone assumes the angel tells her it's going to be virginal first but he doesn't if you read Luke really carefully all he says is you're going to have a baby and her response should be that's wonderful but that's not what she says instead in Luke 1 what is it 135 she says how shall this be since I know not man right and scholars since ancient times a puzzle agustin Ephraim they say this is mysterious because it the only thing that makes sense of her response is that she's taken a vow of virginity right because to not know man means to not have marital relations with man it has the same Greek force in Greek as I don't smoke right I don't smoke means I don't smoke now in the present and I don't intend on smoking in the future as well so why would a betrothed woman respond to the announcement of a child being born by saying how shall this be since I don't know man and the only plausible explanation makes sense of the text and doesn't try to escape it is that she has taken some valid virginity now everyone's known this for centuries but many scholars will say ah but that's not we can't historically that's not plausible because we don't have any evidence for Jewish women taking vows of abstinence within marriage right and it is true that if you look at like the Essenes and the first century AD in Israel or the Eve there are pew ty and Egypt there were Jewish celibate women there were women who took vows of virginity but they were celibate they were unmarried right so people say those pair don't work to show that Mary was a Jewish woman who had taken a vow of sexual abstinence because she's married she's not living a celibate life meaning celibate as unmarried and what I show in the book is what everyone has overlooked is that there is actually evidence for Jewish women taking vows of sexual abstinence within marriage and guess where it's hidden where bring on the deaths it's not in the rabbi's it's not in the Talmud it's not in the Mishnah that's not in some obscure scroll it's in the Old Testament is hid yeah yeah it's hidden Book of Numbers pay attention people because it's gonna blow your mind go ahead man don't know you know you say his who do you mean that's actually not the name that's the Greek title it's called a joke anyway no in numbers chapter 30 there's actually a whole chapter dedicated to vows taken by women and the vows in question are called a vow to afflict yourself or about to deny yourself you can translate it either way and as Jacob Milgrom the great Pentateuch will scoff a Jewish scholar is shown that language of afflict or deny yourself is can be used to refer to fasting or sexual abstinence and in the context and that's exactly right in numbers 30 what it's doing is it's saying if a young girl in her father's house takes a vow to deny herself and the father accepts it it is binding and if a widow takes about to deny herself it's binding but then it adds a third category if a married woman takes a vow to deny herself and her husband hears of it and he approves of it then the vow is binding but it adds this caveat it says but if he makes them null and void after he has heard of them then he shall bear her iniquity in other words if he changes his mind then the fault is with him and not with the woman now it's entirely possible that they're all there were so many Jewish husbands upset about their wives fasting that they had to write a whole book of law in numbers 30 but I think it's more plausible to suggest that the reason they had a whole devote a whole chapter this was to do with the question of a young woman who had taken about to deny herself whose husband accepted it at first but then thought better of it afterwards and and had her renege on the vow and what it's saying is the sin goes to him and not to her so um in a nutshell then we actually and this isn't just numbers if you do go in to look at the mission stuff they're they're texting the Mishnah that actually have to mitigate some of this and and and and deal with problems that these kind of vowels actually would cause within marriage okay it's in mission uh and well actually it's in a few different track dates I'm not gonna go through them right now but for you can read the book and it's all in there right so um they look for the Mishnah right now thanks I appreciate it well but here's the issue so in other words according to the Bible itself if Mary has taken some kind of vow of virginity which is what the the text of Luke chapter 1 implies it's the only thing that makes sense in Augusta and like English than Aquinas and others and I point to this race and F from I think it's at Ephraim I came here if it's from or just know it's I think it's a Gustin and Chrysostom I'd have to look at the end of the chapter there it's a couple the early fathers fourth century east and west I showed their eastern and western Christians that's how they read the text right they see it as implied bowel virginity if that if if there's evidence for that in Luke then it actually makes sense in the first century Jewish context because according to Book of Numbers if Mary took a vow like that and then tells Joseph about it and her husband hears of it and he accepts the vow then the bowels binding Wow so in other words once again the Catholic dogma really can trace its origins back into Scripture old estimate yeah if you read the New Testament accounts of Mary and isolation from the Old Testament you it you can't see it if you read what the New Testament says in light of the Old Testament it all becomes clear it is a law and about it doesn't just become clear it explains why ancient Christians read the New Testament this way because unlike modern Christians they didn't ignore the Old Testament just because it's old they read the Bible as a whole and they knew the Old Testament backwards and forwards and so when they read the New Testament even though if they weren't Jewish themselves like Ephraim and Augusta and Christin they're not Jews but as Christians they've received the Old Testament appropriated it and thought in light of it and so they're seeing the New Testament through Old Testament eyes and that's why they say the kinds of things about married that they say that she was sinless she was assumed into heaven and in this case that she remained a virgin her whole life small and that folks is why the book is called Jesus and the Jewish roots of Mary here's my copy because I told Brandt the cover is beautiful that my kids ripped it off because I kept it down by the easy-chair too long because I was engrossed in it it's a phenomenal book Brandt congratulations on it and and it did nothing but further deepen my deep love of Our Lady which is really the end goal right it's supposed to put Mary in a proper context and show us that the Church's teaching is really ordered to a deeper devotion not just to her but to our Lord right because that's where Mary is actually in us yeah I'm glad you brought that up if you keep reading in the book there's a whole chapter on Mary as the new Rachel that we get didn't get to discuss today but it's it really is about Mary's identity as mother not just of Jesus but his mother of all Christians and of all disciples and and one of the things I try to show in the book is it's really crucial recognized that Mary is not a Dogma Mary is a person right a real person in with whom we can enter into a real relationship in not just in her role as Queen or NUI for a new arc but as mother and what I show in the book is one of the Jesus last words on the cross he only has seven he's asphyxiating the last thing he says to any one of his disciples is behold your mother right so when Jesus says his word to the Beloved Disciple on the one level he's giving Mary to the beloved cycle to be his mother in history that's the level of the historical sense but on a deeper level and it's always a deeper level with the Gospel of John Jesus is giving Mary to all his beloved disciples to be our mother just like she becomes John's mother through the sorrow of the cross she becomes our mother through the sorrow of the cross through her participation in Christ's suffering and death and so if are we gonna listen to Jesus invitation there to look to his mother because when we do she always points us back to him like in the beginning of the Gospel John do whatever he tells you what I loved is you pointed out in there and I did not know this that is according to Roman law that is someone who is undergoing a crucifixion can actually yeah it's like a last will whatever he says from the cross and he's bequeathing something to someone else it's it's legal right and it's binding and here it is bringing other points yeah and he's a great keen or poisonous yes I go ahead me behold your mother right and so he's giving his mother but you also make the point that John refers to himself as the Beloved Disciple he doesn't name himself and why because we're all the Beloved Disciple and so Christ is is he's giving his mother to all of us that's exactly right Craig keen or show citizen who's coming to her and John that a person in their dying words who's crucified can make a last will and testament orally from the cross and and so when Jesus does this it isn't just like he's trying to make sure it's why it takes care of his mother it's a formal act of bestow whereby he he gives her away to John to become John's mother and in John's Gospel when he calls off the Beloved Disciple it's widely recognized that John wants his readers to see themselves in the figure of the Beloved Disciple even world Whitman said this the Beloved Disciple is an ideal figure and so in that sense Jesus is giving Mary to all of his beloved disciples through the figure of John so that she doesn't just become John's mother she becomes our mother which by the way if you turn to Revelation 12 that's why in Revelation 12 or 17 the mother of the Messiah the woman there actually it says that the serpent what makes war on her other offspring other children everyone who bears witness to Jesus so all who bear witness to Jesus are the children of the woman the mother of the Messiah and revelation so it's another one of these parallels between the apocalypse of John and the book of Revelation and for me at least that's really important to recognize that um you know that that when Jesus says behold your mother actually it's interesting he does he says that second first he says behold your son see Mary beholds John as her child before John beholds her as his mother in turn and isn't that how it is with mothers right they see us first right when a child is born the mother beholds a child first and then eventually the baby opens its eyes and it beholds its mother right the mother looks first and the same thing is true about Mary right uh once we start to see who she is what we're gonna realize is she was already waiting there for us she was holding us long before we were beholding her she was praying for us long before we were asking her to pray for us because not only did Jesus give John to be her not only did Jesus give Mary be John's mother but in the figure of John Jesus gave all of his disciples to her to be her children that's absolutely beautiful is gorgeous and it should I mean when we listening to you talk about this and describe what's taking place at the foot of the cross just makes this kind of like fire of love for our lady just kind of well up inside of me because she plays such an important role in our spiritual lives and we cannot neglect her we can't we're fools - no absolutely not you know some Christians will generally say well I don't want to honor her too much I don't want to love her too much listen you can't love her or honor her more than Jesus did right so here's my rule just don't love her or honor her more than Jesus did and you'll be fine but at the same time challenge yourself do I love her and do I honor her as much as Jesus did until you reach that goal you're you know you're fine and remember if she really is our mother in the Old Testament the fourth commandment is honor your father mother mother in fact the Hebrew there Kubota is give glory to your father and your mother I think so it isn't yeah it isn't just like you know don't don't don't talk back to them don't be rude to them it is it's a command to glorify them and you know we then do limits of course there she's just a creature she's just a human being but she's not just any human being she's not just any creature she's the creature who through the grace of God has been elevated to the status of mother of the Messiah and of Queen Mother of Jesus's kingdom and that whole fourth commandment thing is just another one of the arguments that just annihilates the whole argument that I used to have a whole obviously Jesus kind of disrespected his mother at the wedding at Cana oh yeah yeah right what is this to me what do I have to do with any of this Mary you know was command man it's ludicrous like he's dissing his mom at the wedding at Cana you know yeah yeah um if your exegesis leads you to the conclusion that Jesus broke one of the commandments you probably just throw that out there but even if I mean it's absurd it is absurd to suggest that in John to see more inserted absurd to say it with reference to the cross because he calls her a woman at the cross as well he's not disrespecting her in either case he always honors her because that's what the Decalogue says to do right I mean it's weighing her back to the woman in Genesis and you see the I mean we got all this kind of two on Mary's a Nui because this is an allusion to Mary as the new Eve and Mary as the new Ark as I mentioned earlier in the context of spiritual warfare why of Catholics put her at the central place well they go the Exodus did the Ark have a central place in the Exodus yes did it take away from God's glory for the Ark to be central did it take away from God's glory for the the Ark to have a central place in the liturgy of ancient Israel No so just as it doesn't take away from God's glory for the Ark to be pure and holy and made of gold and honored and treated with reverence and in hope respect no more didn't take away from Jesus from to be recognized as holy to be honored and to be put at the center of our journey towards the heavenly promised land in the new exo-m's amen and I'll tell you that I was explaining some of this that you had in the book about the crucifixion and the queen of the mother - John and I were all double of a disciple - my 16 year old way to Mass this morning and she gave you the compliment she goes oh that's cool it's for me it's most important parts of the book and on Mary that's a chapter on the new Rachel where I show that in ancient Jewish tradition Rachel was seen as the mother of Israel as the mother of Sorrows who would pray for and intercede for her children and as I lay out in that last chapter that your teen thought was cool if you look at the Gospel John carefully and the New Testament Jesus is a new Joseph right the Beloved Disciple is a new Benjamin and what did Joseph mijin have in common out of the 12 and the Old Testament same mother were they were sons of the same and in fact as I show in Deuteronomy 33 guess what Benjamin's title was the beloved but you have to read the book if you want yeah well the book is Jesus and the Jewish roots of Mary you can get it anywhere you can get it at Amazon you can get it any any bookstores you can get a brand Petri dogs on a website and get it there that's right and if you go to Brant Petrie comm you can connect to the Catholic Productions guys and get Brants audio and he's got tons of ideas on their video audio downloadable or anything you want yeah and those guys do great work and you do great work through them so thank you for all that you do for the church Brant and one more thing one last point if somebody wants to they're like wow I love this book I'd like to do a Bible study in my parish right it's not out yet but coming out soon the Augustan Institute where I teach is producing an 8 part video Bible study series called Lexi Oh Mary nice and it's gonna be unveiling the mother of Jesus in the Bible and what we do in that in that Bible study is going to be a video Bible study eight parts 40 minute 45 minute videos walking through Mary as new Eid new Ark new queen mother perpetual virginity the new Rachel and it's gonna have a guy it's gonna have a leaders guide that you can use in a parish so that you can take the book and then share it and teach it at the level of a parish so check check out Lexi O'Meara from the Augusta Institute that's gonna be coming out real soon awesome look forward to it well thank you very much brand this has been awesome and and I hope to see you soon like in person not just ask guide man it yeah yeah yeah it's always a pleasure to be with you man how was a pleasure alright well god bless you you