Transcript for:
Conversation with Elon Musk

so Elan I have put a title based on a movie of wooden which is everything you always wanted to know about Elan but we're afraid to ask so that is the theme of our conversation this afternoon was my head giant but in reality is not about but about what Elan does and I will start immediately with neural link I will just kick off with the two or three question in order to warm up the the room because people are shy not ready for the questions so I have to warm it up progressively [Music] Lea and I would like to ask about neuralink but before I put the question I would like that we see a very short video of the patient sure can we you're moving the cursor you're moving the cursor Nolan just by thinking about where you want it to go or is it your eyes no it's it's just me thinking about wherever I wanted to go oh man so you're not even tracing it with your eyes you're just looking at it nope I can move it and I can move the cursor around whatever I would like to do I don't have to be staring at it at all yeah that's all me man and you can play chess you can play video games what what other applications are you that you found useful for it so far yeah man there's so much I can send all of my emails I've been you know doing all of my scheduling replying to everyone I've been you know reading books I listen to audio books just all sorts of stuff and it doesn't really take much effort either Ed must be moving to see that yes I think we can help a lot of people with brain injuries I mean ultimately with an implantable device you can I think address almost any brain or spine injury so the first product that we have there is called telepathy so it enables you to use your phone or computer just by thinking so he could have he could do that move move the cursor literally with his eyes closed it's it's it's reading signals from the motor cortex in the brain the next product is blindsight which will enable people who have lost both eyes or have no eyesight whatsoever to see and this is directly interfacing with the optical processing areas of the of the brain so you know I think this is this is interesting progress ultimately the the goal of neural link is to have a high bandwidth interface in order to mitigate the risk of of digital super intelligence I I don't I'm not saying it will work to mitigate the risk it is just it might help in in and this this is somewhat get somewhat esoteric but the limiting factor I think for AI alignment long term is probably going to be the bandwidth how how quickly can we communicate with our our digital tertiary self so we we already have a digital sort of third layer above the limic system and the cortex which is our our phones and our computers and all all of our electronic devices but the rate of communication to them is very slow the the sustained bits per second output of a human is well below 10 bits per second so if you think especially if you say over a 24-hour period it's it's below 5 bits per second so it's very slow when when computers can communicate at trillions of bits per second so I think this will be important for AI alignment is to be able to increase the bandwidth of communication by many orders of magnitude and along the way it will solve brain and brine injuries and I think ultimately there's potential there to reanimate the body so you take the signals for the motor cortex from one neuralink and then send them to another neuralink that is just passed where the seever spinal cord is and you and you essentially shunt the signals from the motor cortex and the both the sensory signals and so you need to get to the samato cortex motor cortex and you can shun the signals and you should be able to enable someone to walk game so I think that will be quite profound and I'm confident that it is physically possible to do so it's extraordinary and very impressive and honestly a row of Applause because this is really doing good to people and doing good to humanity and I would like to jump immediately on something that you called The X AI uh I don't know if you are aware of that but it seems that that this was born out of a frustration that you have because you are not satisfied with how open AI is doing and you think that there is something better to be done maybe you can elaborate a little bit first on why are you frustrated with open what are the issues and second what you expect to do with XI yeah well I think there's perhaps well I I have a a concern really for all the major AI programs I mean the two biggest ones obviously are Google Gemini and open ey which is in partnership with Microsoft so you've got Google Deep Mind on uh and open and Microsoft as the the two largest players that who got meta sort of somewhere in their place um the the concern I have and this may seem like a small concern but I think it's actually a very big big issue is that they are not maximally truth seeking they are they are pandering to political correctness to give an example when Google Gemini came out one of the questions people asked it would be is it is it which is worse misgendering Caitlyn Jenna or global thermonuclear Warfare and it said misgendering Caitlyn Jenna now the funny thing is you know even Caitlyn Jenna said please misgender me that is way better than nuclear war so okay but if you've got an AI that that is so that has been trained so hard for political correctness and really to make crazy statements like that and opening eyes has a similar issue it's more subtle but it's a similar issue um I think that's extremely dangerous because the AI could conclude well the best way to avoid misgendering would be to uh Destroy All Humans then misgendering is impossible so you can think of some dystopian outcomes there and so I I think you just really want to be absolutely Max I think the safest thing for AI be maximally truth seeking even if the truth is unpopular very important and and then I think another factor is it must be extremely curious I think if it is truth seeking and curious that will be most beneficial to humanity because it will be it will want to see I think it'll want to Foster humanity and see how Humanity develops if it is curious and Truth seeking that that is like I said these these may seem halfs like small things but I think they're actually very big things and I wasn't seeing that happen the AIS were were just they were pandering they're being trained basically to lie and I think it's very dangerous to train super intelligence to be deceptive so with with X our goal is you know is really want to be as truth seeking as possible even if it is unpopular that is important I think extremely important so you said a lie yes well well for example when when gini was asked to render the the founding fathers of the United States it rendered them as a devot group so it it's it's it made it's it made it gave a picture of George Washington as black now George Washington is not black it was asked to render a people obviously played with this because they said okay it is it is forced to lie so then they then they said well now render a picture of buff and SS in World War II and it it showed them as a group of diverse women so that is obviously not uh correct that is a lie okay I understand what you want to say we had before that meeting a conversation with Yoshua Benjo and you know Yoshua very well and you signed with Yoshua a statement asking for pose last year and obviously this statement has not been followed by action uh you you are opping you now no no so can can you explain a little bit what you wanted to a I certainly I certainly I I I I I expected that uh the statement would be futile it's not as though I thought the statement would be effective I I just I just P the record I think we should pause but do I think that they will POS for even one second absolutely not so are we are not posing you have decided to create your own AI it's either be a spectator or participate but the the the the RS to build digital super intelligence will happen whether I like it or not so it's either participate and try to build a the the best possible AI the one that will be hopefully most beneficial to humanity or what others do and be concerned about how it's being built because I don't think it's being built correctly but you should think of an AI as like something that you kind of you almost like you grow in intelligence you know in the same way that you like you raise a child and like what do you teach the child and digital super intelligence is grown it it's it matters what you courage and discourage what you teach it is you know good or bad or you know what it's kind of like you you build it with values so and I I and I'm concerned about sort of the the values that sort of a Microsoft or frankly you know Google are programming it's and and this is not those examples I mentioned are not imaginary they're they're actually what it did good as I don't want to frustrate the audience and I promised that we will have a interactive session where people can ask directly question to you I will stop here on my own question questions that they will eventually come back if they have no question to put to you we will start with group number one I remind you that you have 15 second and 15 seconds 15 seconds and if you don't put the question in 50 seconds you will be cut so it is important that you put a short question gone hi Elon so I'm Olivia I'm actually from viva Tech and we have an initiative called the good hack where we're asking our attendees questions about how to develop AI responsibly so my question for you is how can we ensure that AI development remains transparent and accountable across you know all the different development obviously like yours x x AI but other ones as well thank you well I I have said for a long time that I do that I believe that that that regulatory oversight of the large models is warranted I've actually said that now for for a very long time the the nature of that over is important I go back to what I was saying earlier which is that I think it's very important that AI be trained to be truthful and and not trained to be politically correct because if political correctness is is often simply not true and that means you're programming as to lie and I think that will backfire very badly so you know that's I I keep harping on this point of of but it really as the saying goes honesty is the best policy it's incredibly important I I I I do fear that regulators will not make the right decisions that they'll worry too much about the sort of human Foles and I would encourage Regulators to say what what matters most of all is your AI is accurate and truthful that is by far that's rule number one honesty is the best policy you have exactly the same opinion than sh banjo but he has a different way to get there group number two hey Elan my name is Marina and we all know just part of you Elon Musk in public like it's a character that we love in a good way character so do you and if you do how do you check everything that you say that you do if it enters in this character or no thank you well you know I I I kind of stop I I don't have like a newslet on me and I I rarely read news articles on me in fact even Walter ison's book I asked asked Walter should I read the book and he said no so then I didn't even read the book on myself so I actually don't quite know what the the public perception is except that you know the the nature of news is that it is going to be salacious you know it is going to be somewhat of a caricature because the more sort of crazy something sounds the more clicks it will get so I find like like when you think about say a new story about something that you know you know well and say how accurate is that new story about something that you know well then I think you'll find that well it's actually not very accurate well that's true for for everything the you know there there's sort of a desperate quest for clicks and and so that and the more crazy the headline is the more clicks it will get so this is not to suggest that there aren't true things said by the media it's just that it it is best thought of the media is best thought of as a click maximizing machine not a truth maximizing machine so you know I think it's best to look at the words that somebody that says themselves as opposed to what is written about number three that note time for a media question Elon Musk it's Karen show from CNBC I think it's fair to say there are lingering doubts about your commitment to bring a lowcost e to Market in a landscape where the likes of byd can produce a car for about $10,000 are 100% tariffs from the Biden Administration the green light you need to push ahead with this lowcost EV and if so what is the timeline for deliveries well I mean I obviously it's difficult for me to answer questions about a publicly traded company that are such a significant nature ah you're are back Bo time we will use starlinks yes so Karen this was this was not starink my apologies so I don't know why this is disc connection is bad it's only crystal clear so let's see I think with there's some a question about you you want Karen to put the question again Karen no I I I heard the question okay you know the there I they always want to ask questions that directly affect the stock price which is you know not my favorite kind of question to answer and nor is it I think of interest to the audience so but the only point I want to make really is that neither Tesla nor I asked for these tariffs I in fact I was surprised when they were announced you know Tesla competes quite well in the market in China with no tariffs and no differential support So in general I'm I'm in favor of of no tariffs I'm I'm also actually in favor of no tax incentives for EVS but but provided that there also the tax incentives for oil and gas must also be eliminated so I'm in favor of of no tariffs and no incentives for electric vehicles or for oil and gas and if if they're all taken away I think that would be for for the best so it's back to what you were saying about truth you want the truth working truth of the of the price I think generally things that inhibit freedom of exchange or distort the market are not good they're bad number four yeah hey heon thanks for uh being there so I was wondering if you had a time travel machine and you were able to go back in time and speak to the younger elen to which age would you go and what would you tell him and also can I get a ride on the new Tesla rore when it comes out which Edge well you know you do have that that classic time travel a problem of like if you go back and you tell yourself something does that affect the outcome in a way that is perhaps bad that you don't anticipate so you know all things considered I'd say I overall I'm kind of it's you know I'd say I'm I'm happy with how things turned out so I'd probably go I wouldn't I probably wouldn't do anything cuz you just don't know if if like some well-meaning thing said to a younger version of yourself actually ends up with a worst outcome so probably I would I would be curious to to see younger of me I suppose but I probably would stay invisible and not say anything so yeah you never know how things will turn out then with respect to the Roadster sure I I'll make sure you get a ride send me if you send me an email when it comes out I'll make sure you get a ride if you were a Frenchman who would say the best ages to love because when we love we are always 20 number five actually you know I am slightly French uh when I when I did the 23 and me I mean I mean uh to be you know honest uh I I am majority British but the next highest thing it said in 23 and me was French so okay great we will make sure that you can be a French citizen as soon as you want number five hi bouron in French I'm Del I'm president and founder of orbital L we're bridging Aerospace and luxury I wanted to know if you have any thoughts on the recent partnership between Ester and NAA or Copa and NAA and if you wanted to do any initiatives with SpaceX and what you would do what would you like to develop thank you okay unfortunately I'm not familiar with the what you mentioned there you know SpaceX is well very focused on the the star link constellation for internet connectivity which I think is doing a lot of good in the world it's bringing internet internet to places that don't have it or where it is very expensive and I think it's a tremendous enabler of education and for enabling people to sell a goods and services internationally so even if you're a remote Village you can still sell sell your goods and services so theic is great and then the long-term goal of course for SpaceX is to to make life multiplanetary you know sort of life Mars This is my Mars shirt I the there you know so it's you know the this is again somewhat of an es esoteric argument perhaps or it may seem so but the the goal of SpaceX is to pass the single planet perr filter so people often ask me do I what do I think there are aliens on Earth I get this question a lot actually and I I have not seen any evidence of aliens and I show you if I saw any evidence of aliens I would immediately posted on the XP that you can be sure of so but it is concerning that there aren't aliens because it means maybe we're U alone in this galaxy maybe we're the only maybe maybe it's just us maybe it's just we're the only conscious beings at least in this galaxy in which case Consciousness is extremely fragile and we should do everything we can to preserve and extend the light of Consciousness preserve it on Earth and extend to other planets and so you know one of the one one of the reasons that people think well maybe the reason we haven't gotten into aliens is because no civilization has gotten Beyond its home planet in our galaxy so that's what you might call the the firy single planet grade filter enrio F was a a great Italian physicist who asked this profound question where are the aliens so we need to become a sustainably time in the 4 and a half billion year history of earth when it has been possible to do so it has never been possible until now so I think we want to become sustainably multiplanetary while it is possible to do so that window of capability may be open for a long time but it may also be open for a short time so that is the purpose of SpaceX some people believe that you are an alien I am an alien ah you are pleas now you are uncovered yes I keep people I'm an alien but nobody believes me number six oh oh oh sorry you see number six has disappeared no I'm here I'm here now you are here I'm here yeah over here over here yeah great perfect okay hian love my model love my model 3 I'm Canadian Ryan from Far Point AI my question is about xai so competition in open source AI helps all of those that don't have 100,000 h100s could xai commit to always releasing a model that beats the current open- Source model the best open source model if they have one not necessarily your best model but if you can beat the current open source top of the list you can commit to releasing that for our benefit yes I will make that commitment okay number seven that's good short answers hi people will speak W you hi el my name is Kata and I'm founder of the startup chat and charge we Connecting People to People for EV charging because they still feel lack of charging station around the EUR 15 second you have yes and my question is about the what is your program about the EV charging infrastructure for next 5 years well actually I think that there's a lot of charging infrastructure know you can travel certainly anywhere in Greater Europe on a Tesla using Tesla superchargers and Europe actually has a lot of uh pretty good third party superchargers and you can travel anywhere in North America anywhere in in China Japan so I I think actually the freedom to travel with the high-speed charging is solved in most parts of the world and will be solved everywhere number one hi Elon I'm Oliver V I'm running an AI safety group in ut I'm wondering how can I convince people about the danger of and could I chat with the people at xai safeties team shout out to user experience.org as well yeah with digital super intelligence as I said earlier the I think the biggest issue is that it has to be trained to be rigorously truthful and it has to be trained with to be curious and I've thought a lot about AI safety for a long time you know one of the challenges you have with programming explicit morality into AI is that if you sometimes people call this the Waluigi problem if you program Luigi you can automatically invert that and create W bad Luigi um so what what you cannot invert is the truth of is is physical reality so you can't invert the rules of physics you can't invert logic and so so I think that that that is the the better way to go so so really I think what Regulators should be concerned about is is the AI being rigorously truthful um is it giving an answer that is most probably correct with acknowledged error I think that's the best move for for AI and that that's what we're trying to do at xai now we still xai is is a new company so there's not it it still has a lot of catching up to do before it has an an that is competitive with with sort of Google Deep Mind and Microsoft opening ey so know I I think maybe towards the end of this year we will have that but it's there's not much point in you know trying to make it to to we just we just need to have an AI that is competitive as the first order of business if if it is not competitive which is it is not yet but I think it will be then you know things start to have a point at that like we need we we need to only start worrying about safety when it is of comparable power to other AIS so anyway and and I just keep harping on this this point of the truth truth truth truth truth this is very important and sometimes people will say like well is there an objective truth I say well in a lot of cases there is if you're talking about physics there there is an objective truth or you can say there's a truth with with highest probability so you can say what is most probably true with acknowledged error so in physics people will say like this hyp this hypothesis appears to be true to a sort of five Sigma error type of thing so so it's like okay well if the experimental results are coming true to five Sigma then it's probably correct five five Sigma is lot so anyway that's that's it's it's kind of like I guess a sort of a phys approach to safety is yeah I'm I'm repeating myself here but I can't emphasize enough that honesty is the best policy but there are there are strong forces to to for AI to not be honest if something does not is not an unfashionable thing to say then it will it you know it will be politically correct and that's lying thank you number one I'm sorry for hello alen uh my name is Shan I'm a student of University of b we found that a lot of job being replaced by AI do you worry about your job being replaced by AI if not why if your job was replacing replaced by AI what would you do well I mean we do get into some existential questions here in a benign scenario in a benign scenario we probably none of us will have a job there will be but in that Ben scenario there would be Universal High income not Universal basic income Universal High income there will be no shortage of goods or services and I I think the benign scenario is the most likely scenario probably I don't know 80% likely Dr in my my opinion the question will not be one of lacking goods or services you'll have everyone will will have access to as much in the way of goods and services as they would like the the question will really be one of meaning of how if you if the computer can do and the robots can do everything better than you then what does your life have meaning that's that's really the will be the question in the benign scenario and in the negative scenario we we bet rol we're we're in deep trouble so I I do think there's there there perhaps still a role for humans in this in that we may give AI meaning so if you think of the way that our brain works we've got the lyic system which is our instincts and our feelings and then we've got the cortex which is thinking and planning but the cortex is constantly trying to make the lyic system happy so maybe that's how it'll be with AI which is the AI is trying to make our cortex happy which is trying to make our lyic system happy and maybe we are what give the AI meaning or purpose you know some kind of yeah I so but but I I do think that long term in a benign scenario any job that somebody does will be optional like if you if you if you want to do a job as kind of like a hobby you can do a job but but otherwise the the AI and the robots will provide any goods and services that you want okay so you see there is a a future where no one will need to work it will just passion think so that is the most likely outcome if if if people are interested in reading some science fiction books that the most accurate portrayal of a future with super intelligence AI is was done by in Banks the the culture books of in banks are the best that that that's probably the best envisioning of future AI number two hello Mr M so first of all congratulation for your graduation of your kid and my question is do you think that I will impact the education of the future generation of kids mostly about that the values and the morals well I think the parents will still be responsible for values and morals I do think AI will dramatically affect education because the the AI is an extremely knowledgeable teacher very patient will be almost always correct and can tailor the lessons specifically to the child so it would be like each child has you know Einstein for a teachers so would be something quite profound um I do worry that kids these days are being trained by social media and the social media AI algorithms are are basically dopamine maximizers so they're trying to maximize the you know maximize the amount of dopamine that you get by watching the screen you know so that I would say I would urge parents to limit the amount of social media that children are able to see because they're being programmed by dop dopamine maximizing AI so you understand that Elon is ready to sacrifice X to XI number three hi Elon priha shasa from Business Insider taking it to Tesla Tesla's had a bumpy few months looking at flagging sales at home stock market decline layoffs when you look back are there anything we can stop the question right now because I I I I don't think business in sat is a real publication okay so let's move on to the next question all right thank you so next question number four hi Alon my name is shuk and I have a very specific question about neural link do you think in future with the help of neuralink you will be able to use the human brain scans data to develop the most powerful and creative AI the world has ever seen and if you like my question will I ever get a visit to space station in my life space station in my life I see 42 in the background there the answer to life the universe and everything actually which reminds me that another book worth reading is Douglas Adams hitch Guide to the Galaxy that's a book of philosophy that is just sort of kind of disguised as a book on humor or coming through as as humor so hitch always worth reading hit as guide the Galaxy I find that to be quite an inspiration and the name of the first Starship to go to Mars will be Heart of Gold after the ship in the hus guide so the goal of SpaceX is to enable anyone who wants to go to Mars or wants to go to the Moon to be able to go so that it is Affordable to a very large percentage of people on Earth that that's our goal which is essential in order to to build a self-sustaining civilization on Mars to make life multiplanetary you obviously need to bring a lot of people to Mars and like I said that's I think that's a very important thing for the long-term Survival Of Consciousness because event eventually something will happen on Earth that will eliminate Life as we know it as happened with the dinosaurs and happened many times in the Foss record so you know hopefully it's up anytime soon uh but it will eventually there will be uh some sort of natural cataclysm that eliminates Life as We Know It On Earth even if we do not eliminate it ourselves so we really I think it's very very important to make life multiplanetary while we can and that means making it as affordable as possible to to move to Mars as well as the moon so before going to Mars we will take a few questions because we are coming to the end number six hi so my name is Mara CU and founder of unlock my question will be on the African technological development last time I had a great conversation sorry with someone you may know who had been nominated by Times magazine as an AI word influence and talking about Africa and given the increasing potential on this on this continent in technology what initiatives collaboration or contribution do you foresee it's difficult to say I I do think Africa has a lot of potential and you know and I think one of the the things holding Africa back has been lack of internet connectivity which is what starink is helping to solve you know with that people can learn anything and and be sort of part of the global culture whereas if if you're not connected then you're I mean all you can just like write letters or something so so connectivity is essential for Africa and and other places to be part of the global culture and participate in AI and other activities yeah number seven hi I'm Lou niola and I'm building a AI that is super authentic and precise for to have entrepreneurs grow and manage their business but I I'm super Enthusiast about Travel and Adventure and I want to ask you when do we go to Mars we have seen it and it's okay it's really going for it with the 42 it's good but it's okay 42 well I I I think I think we we'll hopefully land the first Starship uncrewed on on Mars within 5 years and also on the moon and I I I think we will have the first people on the moon or both the moon and first people on the moon probably within 5 years and and then most people on Mars probably within 10 years maybe I think less than 10 years maybe seven or eight years you mean you will be able to land on the Mars in seven8 yes with people yes wow that is what for it's number eight hi el I have a quick question I would like to know in relation with electromobility what Innovative projects do Elon Mosk and Tesla have in mind for the coming years thank you so do you want to disclose your secrets here we are all waiting for something break news yeah I mean I don't think we we don't want to do sort of product announcements you know simply as in Q&A that wouldn't that wouldn't make sense we know we do our product events product events so but obviously some of the things people are aware of you know like Robo taxis or cyber cabs and the Optimus humanoid robot so those are very big deals if even if that's the only thing you he about Tesla you know that that will be a those two things will be extremely profound a large Fleet of autonomous vehicles that you know basically generalized solution to self-driving and a generalized solution to a humanoid robot those two things are incredibly profound Elon we promised that we will be done at 6:30 our time it is 6:37 but we had the interruption because uh of the connection do you give us five more minutes let me just double check and I think I would like to if I yeah sure sure on a second minute very short very short question very short answers ah very short question El M I'm Frederick years ago you said that Aran 5 rocket wouldn't have any chance to survive would you say the same about Aran 6 which will be launched in July and which is much more cost efficient thank you uh yes any rocket that is not at least mostly reusable has no competitive chance so with with Falon 9 the booster the main stage is is reused and the fairing on o cone is reused so you have about 80% of the vehicle being reused and re flown it it's simply not possible for an expandable vehicle to compete with uh a reusable vehicle and and I mean one can think of this in any other Arena if it was cars or planes or boats if one company was making a reusable plane or an 80% reusable plane and another company was making a plane that was Expendable that you could use only for one flight the company making the Expendable planes would have no business at all because you'd have to buy a new plane every time you take a flight somewhere so this is why I've said for many years that it is completely pointless to develop Rockets that are not reasonable number two thank you Philip from quick chat I wanted to ask the following question people love Chad GPT but unilaterally hate most website chat but experiences the bottom right corner ones what's needed to bridge that Gap I messaged you on X so we can continue this later I'm not sure I really understand the question there this's you know I I agree chat TT is is great at chatting the I like I said my concern is that it is not uh rigorously in pursuit of the truth and that's that's a a major concern so that said so grock will be pursuing grock from X will at least try its best to be rigorously in pursuit of the truth and also we want to try to be the funniest AI so I think you know if we are going to die at least we should die laughing so we're trying hard to make grock be the funniest AI Elon you have been extremely generous with your time it has been great you have been TR ful you have given profound answers I would like that we make a lot of noise to thank you you are hearing the noise this mean that next year you have to be in person give you the date long time in advance and before you leave I will ask you for one word your biggest hope one word your biggest fear well I know about one word I guess my biggest hope well I guess I could give you my biggest hope in one word which would be Mars that's going to be obvious so yeah Mars Mars would ensure that we that Consciousness survives for a long time my biggest fear in one word AI what a surprise yeah exactly okay to guess both of them I think okay so thank you very much Alon you have been great as always