foreign [Music] Dr Rebecca Hall good morning welcome to the program let me pull up I love the sunglasses let me pull up my notes here to give you a proper uh introduction Dr Rebecca Hall is an independent scholar activist and educator her paternal grandparents were born enslaved she writes and publishes on the history of race gender law and resistance as well as articles on climate Justice and intersectional feminist Theory her most recent book wake the hidden history of women-led slave revolts has won multiple Awards and was a finalist for the NAACP image award and the Pan America open book award wake has been listed as a best book of 2021 by NPR in the Washington Post Forbes and Miss magazine her work has been supported by numerous grants and fellowships she is a 2022-23 Radcliffe Institute fellow and most importantly not yet added to her bio is she is a guest on I mix what I like here black Power Media there we go I'm just playing Welcome Dr all thank you for joining us this morning thank you I'm just I'm moving I move this here at uh Harvard and uh it's nice having an office I haven't had an office in a really long time so you are on this Coast then I am but it was still like too much it was okay early I had to drag my black ass out of bed this morning because I was so tired to come here but I'm here well I appreciate it I definitely appreciate it and I know our our guests do because except for those who left early they're gonna have to come back um because uh I admit I was I was descending into to uh flight exhaustion travel exhaustion Madness uh but that said again I want to before we move forward I want to again shout out Dr Herbert Brewer as South Korea has pulled to within one against Ghana uh in the World Cup everybody just in case everybody else has it on in the background unfortunately um um shout out to Dr Herbert Brewer at Morgan State University for encouraging me to to look into your work uh uh and I'm late to it obviously but happy to have caught up to it um and you know we we were talking about it in in the chat a little bit uh before we get into it you know and I know you talk about this in in the interview you have in published included at the end of the book you talk a little bit about this but but could you share with us a little bit about your choice of a graphic novel uh for the book yeah sure so so I I mean I love graphic narratives um and especially really powerful Memoir um like oh just some examples like I found a mouse by art spiegelman really um inspirational there's this incredible book called The the best we could do um I don't want to mispronounce This Woman's name she's a Vietnamese Refugee talking about her experience so it's a really powerful medium but I never thought in a million years that I would uh create one and it really is like creating I mean it's writing but it's it's almost like doing this a graphic narrative like this is almost like having a doing a production you know like it's just it's just crazy there's like there's so much so many parts to it um and so I had um so what happened was is I had been fired once again um for calling for mentioning that the white administration at this High School I was teaching at you know was white I was like you know the white administration at Cottonwood High it needs to be more sympathetic to the issues of refugees of color so that got me fired they're like you called us white it's like but you are white but anyway so I was just done I was done with Academia I was done with trying to teach I taught High School for several years got fired multiple times and so I'm like I'm done you know what do I regret most about this failed Academia career and it's like that I did all this research that was really important to me I mean four years full time you know to research and write this dissertation you know I published history articles based on the research and I think probably 20 people have read any of it so I'm like how can I make this material which is pretty complex also be accessible and that's what I thought graphic narrative so um and there are a lot of things about the medium that are very generative but before I go into a long lecture we can just go back to your question so I mean no I I you you touched on something else I want to ask you about as well your your uh what you've shared about your academic experience both just now and even in in your book unfortunately our are reminiscent or or triggering maybe or button pushing for me uh personally so I definitely wanted to ask you you know and even in your bio is you're just self-described as an independent scholar you know what does that mean and what made you leave the institutional academic world uh um so I did if you if there's more you want to share about that now or later I was hoping you would yeah I'm happy to talk about that um ah I I have to figure out a way to talk about this briefly like how do I get this out in like two minutes because I know that's right yeah take your time now I want you to take out and one day you know what if you ever you know anyway we you always you we always have you back but but and maybe and maybe make that the focus so we can maybe more focus on your book but yeah I'll take the two minute version now but yeah yeah I'll try to do it so um you know I practiced law for eight years I was attendance rights attorney and I got really burned out and fed up with the legal system I talk about it in my book I mean not that I was enamored with it before I went to law school but I thought there were some basic things that I could get done on behalf of my clients so um I left that and went back to school and got a so I got my law degree at Berkeley then in 89 I graduated um and then I um so after eight years I went back to school to get my PhD in history and my goal was to be a history Professor um but you know the jobs were really bars like I graduated 2004 and you know Academia is such a Minefield of white liberal toxicity and you know I'm a nice person you know I try to be you know considerate and I just it's interesting being that here I mean being that here in Academia like I'm here for a year as an independent scholar I live from Grant to Grant um so when people ask me what does it mean to be an independent scholar it's like I don't know I'm making it up as I go along right I um so I'm here you know for for a year and I'm with like 50 other fellows and they're amazing this is like an incredible opportunity um but they're all kind of like damaged my academic experiences I mean anybody who's who's a radical man if you want to know more of the details this Audio Drama that I did where to wonder why start with me I'm still tickled about that let me see if I can find them sure sure and and just so you know um Linked In the at least the Kindle version is is a link to the to the uh uh Audio Drama which I've not yet heard so I'm glad you're bringing it up for us to to talk about yeah go ahead yeah tell us the story it tells the story of how the book came into being um and it takes like four firings and kind of condenses them to two but the where I got fired from the Utah University of Utah School of Law that's detailed it you know with specificity you know every messed up thing that happened I don't know if you've heard the story of Derek Bell's teacher oh yeah oh oh and Dr Hall if I'm starting to interrupt but but I just want to share again not only am I familiar with it but at one point some years ago I read almost all of the the the the the transcripts the the submitted papers the statements on all sides uh uh um anyway yeah anyway sorry yeah I mean I'm not like of the statue statute stature statue statue Saturn either one no but I had the same kind of I had very similar things being undermined being you know asking for teaching evaluations being told I mean I had I've taught a lot like I've taught um at UC Santa Cruz where I was getting my PhD I taught I had a postdoc at Berkeley law for two years and my teaching evaluations have been everything from ah okay she makes us read too much to this is life-changing you know and these teaching and vows were like you know and I was teaching criminal procedure constitutional criminal procedure right that's the fourth fifth and sixth amendment to the Constitution and um anyway so they were a lot and I was warmed by a faculty person who had tenure you know whatever you do don't teach race and I'm like they talk they brought me here from Berkeley to teach race I was specifically brought here by the dean who asked me to come and teach race and she's like these students are haters just take my word for it every time you teach race make a note in your calendar I'm like okay and so I did that and um you know I make I managed to not bring I only brought up Grace five times in a semester of a class of criminal constitutional criminal procedure that met every day and then I get these teaching analysis evaluations like she shoved race down our throat every day you know I used to have empathy for the African-American defendant I'm like what and they are I used to yeah I used to you know and it's just so it was like being thrown to the Sharks because all this happened without any support so I mean the details are in this Audio Drama you can get it on Audible um but yeah so Academia I'm very radical I don't really quite fit in no I I get it and and uh I unfortunately I get it so so um anyway so you you which in part is how or I want to build say this is in part what led you to the work uh in Wake but it's also in part the working the work in Wake is also in part what led you to have some more struggles with Academia if I have that timeline correct as well um the content but anyway go okay correct me then yes week I mean I started writing that in 2017 basically so I had been fired from teaching High School I was long away from I mean I hadn't um you know I refused to adjunct and so I haven't taught uh I haven't taught like in Academia proper for probably I don't know six or eight maybe eight years before that and so I was just done I mean the system was done with me and then so that's you know how I wrote this book and being around all these you know academics they're like how did you write a book like that like I would love to do something similar but you know it's never going to get me tenure and it's like these aren't things I need to worry about what I need to worry about is that I don't have a retirement account and I'm 60. I still have student loans you know and you know people think you make a lot of money with these books I mean maybe if you're Stephen King you do but you know you know we're not going to make anything he's going on aren't going to make anything on this book for like maybe 10 years seriously so yeah right on well so let's let's so as I was saying to to the chat and and Ghana has just gone ahead again three to two so shout out to God watch this I can't watch the World Cup I just tell me why yeah because of all the shit like in terms of houses built am I allowed to swear oh no question oh yeah you are you're perfectly fine and you're perfectly fine to be to be critical of uh of the World Cup and to even be critical of my contradiction which I acknowledge is it is because you're right and we I've seen some really radical brothers be like I'm gonna watch the World Cup I'm like man no it's terrible it's terrible and and you're not following it so no no no it's terrible we've talked about the the background uh that we've talked about at least mentioned a little bit of the contradictions uh in terms of race class who's in attendance what's happening in Qatar and all and all of that but but and I'm I'm here for it I accept all of the criticism for that um just don't post it on pictures of my children on Instagram people not to you Dr Hall I'm just no I'm referencing something else that was uh uh that I was talking about earlier um save your criticism yeah there was people criticizing they using the comment section on pictures of my children you know of our travels to say to to unleash their dissertations of of critique and I was like save it for me leave it off for those anyway but but um you uh uh but so but one of the points that the the questions that I had for for you that I mentioned to to uh the folks in our chat just a minute ago before you joined us was um and maybe use this as a segue to talk about the specifics of wake which which is are are very exciting but but I was I I admit that when I when I The Moment I Saw the title I was expecting or wanting I should say Page by Page blow for blow of all the details of women in Revolt historically against enslavement and colonialism and and I you know but admittedly I was surprised and even happily surprised because of my own selfishly experience in Academia to to see that a lot of the book is about your struggle just to complete the research the struggles of a black woman wanting to research about black women specifically those engaged in struggle the highest levels of struggle so so uh um but if we could so let's just start there uh you know the the the the discussion of of wake what you what it what is it what is what you are are sharing with us and exposing to us but even this issue of of the of your of of the the of that of the the book being as much about your engagement in producing the research or or conducting the research as it is about the specifics of what the research right right feels so and it turns out that that part was crucial that part was so initially when I was you know writing the script for the graphic narrative I'm like you know these stories and these sources are so sparse and Scattered and confusing like I need to be a narrator in this book to explain what's going on just historically in these sites like revolts on slave ships during the Middle Passage the two revolts I talk about in New York City Colonial New York City One in 1708 which I uncovered 117 12. um and so but then I was there in the book as a narrator and once I was there I'm like well now I need to tell the truth I need to talk about what this research process was like and so that wasn't so much about Academia as an institution as it is just about General racism and misogynoir so um and I'm glad I did that research it was difficult I talk about it there but um I think what's really resonated for people because what surprised me I've been basically on a book tour for since the book came out like and um you know everywhere I mean like Norway I mean just crazy like and and you know people much younger than I was expecting or reading this book I you know I was targeted at adults and you know I figured it could be used in a high school you know 11th grade U.S history class or whatever but like ninth graders are reading it this 11 year old girl in my building was like oh are you are you awake I'm like yes yes really good book I'm like okay um so I think it's about it's about the journey you know it's about the process yeah no right on uh you so anyway I I don't I I don't know if you wanted to say more about what you talk about in the book in terms of the struggles you had at the the for instance was I put here in my notes you said that and I liked actually the way you described this that when you showed up well first of all you make the point that to do the history of or to study the history of what has been done to African people you have to go paradoxically to the archives of the people who did it uh and then sometimes the people who are presiding over those archives are acting like modern day forms of the people who would create committed the initial crimes which is why you describe going to the British museum as a as a crime scene which I thought was a very apt description and I wanted you to say more about why that description is is appropriate and why you said that and what what your experiences were going there to learn about uh uh uh these African mostly African well primarily African women who were in Revolt yeah and I wrote that whole ex you know for the graphic narrative I wrote about my experience there way back in 2002 or whatever when I was doing this research um and um so I'm sorry the the what did you want me to address I'm sorry that's probably my fault that's definitely my fault it was I wanted you to talk about why why showing up at the British museum you felt it was necessary to describe it as a crime scene because it is and then every everybody knows that now right I mean it's like you know the British Empire man you know the Sun never sits on sets on the British Empire you know I it was the world's the historically largest um you know Empire in U.S I mean American wow global history you know and they were responsible for like for over 80 percent of the transatlantic slave trade um in what we call the long 18th century and um their presence all over the world has resulted in them stealing people's stuff precious stuff from all over the world you know you know jewels from India and people from I mean it just is non-stop so it is a crime scene and um you know I was in Greece a couple years ago which I wanted to do my goal my whole life it was amazing but you know you see this that they you know the British took the marble facing off of the Parthenon and it's sitting in there in the British Museum library oh that's right that right right yeah so yeah they're just and the Greeks were they wanted it back they've been wanting one it belongs to them you know yeah it's just crazy it's crazy but I think um progress on people getting their stuff back okay right on yeah uh let's hope so let's hope so um you also mentioned you it's sort of a passing uh fought but it but it loomed large for me particularly because I was reading this while in Paris dealing with the aspirin Africans and there's a a part where you were you were saying that the the Africans in in London were telling you that you were being treated somewhat better because the Brits knew you wouldn't be there long [Music] um so I if I I did want to invite you to say a word or two about that experience and and the differences in the way imperialism tries to play the diaspora off of itself oh my goodness well that's a whole other subject but um I think I think that um it always amazes me that people who are look I'm an American descendant of slaves right but so are the people in the Caribbean you know so are the you know and black people around the world black Brits all you know I'm not saying our struggles are the same but we are definitely connected um but so yeah that was the sense you know that I got I had like you know some black Brit friends some Scholars of mine telling me that like I'm like the people are so nice to me here and they're like yeah because you don't live here they can hear in your accent that you'll be leaving soon you know so yeah right on uh so and you also talk about something that that came up in discussions of with with with with the this this African diaspora that I met with in in France recent this past week about and they were making the percent I'm sorry my book is in French can you see oh no hold on hold on hold on that's what's up oh right on it's in German too wow congratulations coming out in Turkish Japanese and Korea it's great but yeah that's it that is well well part of what what and I had just added you know similar to this diaspora question I just added in my notes here that I wanted to ask you about is it because the the you know one of the points I was making earlier was that I had you know people are sometimes critical of well why would why would an African descended person go to Europe for any you know instead of going to the continent is if it's either one or the other but one of the points I was making was that there's a diaspora everywhere so as so I was wondering if part of what is resonating in in terms of your books popularity is the diaspora in other parts we could maybe speculate as to why Europeans and various backgrounds might appreciate the work but but is it to what extent is it the diaspora in in your in your travels that you think is is speaking is or is being spoken to uh right right yeah did that make sense and I and you know and it's funny because I don't quite I don't quite know all that um I do I quite what what is drawing people in in Japan Japan and South Korea and turkey I don't think it's about the diaspora France very well could be and so could German the German one but I think that there's something that resonates I guess with people fighting back I mean you know I think a lot of people can relate to that yeah so yeah right on uh let's hope so um so you you but but this point I was getting to was that you know uh apparently some of the same discussion uh of of France's involvement with with enslavement is similar to what you describe in your book about the Brits where they only want to focus on the point at which they uh you um uh engage in abolition not in the act of enslavement uh leaving out you know you have to first enslave before you can abolish especially for taking my life out of your back you know thank me oh for sure yeah yeah um and so you talk about that and then also I'm sorry like go ahead go ahead yeah it's just you know this whole abolition thing um yeah so I may be too tired to go to go into all this but you know the British did compensated average so they paid slave owners uh back for taking their property you know and you know we've never been paid back you know and and you know there are people in the UK that I really believe white people who were really opposed morally to slavery there's incredible work about like for example white working-class women who organize boycotts against you know sugar and all kinds of things but that I feel like the dominant point of England you know committing to abolition of the trade and then um and then patrolling the whole Atlantic you know to uh free and captives and is that it also gave them a way to project their power all across the Atlantic right and you know the economy was was shifting in a way I mean all of the ill-gotten gains from Empire From Slavery from colonialism you know it it it flooded the Empire you know in its transition so you know into more industrialized work so you know it's it's complex but I feel like I'm like I have like an ear for like how historical narratives get framed in a way that just keeps re-inscribing white supremacy that's my almost like my special talent and it's like I'm in the part point where it's like you know flow like flow but the flow is becoming a flood I'm annoying myself I can't even watch something on TV I'm sitting there like re-editing it you know it's like oh they should have done more transition there why do they make that casting Choice it's like I can't even enjoy anything so ah again similarity but but but given what you just said let me let me work backwards against my own notes here and say so given what you just said about the the framing of uh narratives that reinscribe white supremacy I was very much interested in what you would then have thought of the woman King given what you wrote about uh those same women in your book here uh that's interesting you know when that movie was being made I was so worried um about this is complex history with the egoji you know because in the 18th century the 1700s you know they as part of the Dahomey uh Army were instrumental in you know capturing people and selling them into in the transatlantic to trade um a lot of that was in the context of wars and these are War captives and a lot of the wars are being fought you know at European instigation with European tools and machinations and whatnot but so I was worried and I think a lot of Scholars were worried that it was gonna the book was just gonna sell I mean the movie was just gonna celebrate that um ogoji as women warriors and how empowering that is without telling the truth about the the history the backstory but then I went and saw it in the theater with actually a fellow who's a scholar from West Africa from Nigeria and you know we watched it and it's like first of all the film is in a different time period it's in the 1800s the issue of Are We participating in the slave trade should we continue to participate in it should we transfer over to palm oil you know that those discussions were actually happening then and ahosi were actually participating in this discussion so I feel like people are so two things one I'm really glad that people are talking about it at all so there's that the other thing is that I think that some of the people being so critical of this movie it's like why aren't you that critical about other epic films it's an Epic film you know like who broke down you know Sparta's horribleness you know when the 300 or you know Braveheart or whatnot so I think that's that's really interesting and I saw this guy so so so so just to be fair so so you know I was gonna say what who has two thumbs or what has two thumbs and is is equally critical of all these epics as as the other that would be me so because I I I I very I'm I'm sorry yeah as long as you're consistent you know what I mean I I pretty much so so I won't we don't have to have the the the the the disagreement or debate here but I I did not like the film and and and would have preferred the the focus be maybe when they went to war with the French like why wasn't that time period selected uh but anyway uh because I think that because I think that it was a transitional period you know where they're yeah right so yeah no fair enough anyway but I just wanted to just just to put my hand up to say that just so just to be clear that I did not like the film but I I feel like I am equally consistent with with you know my my disagreements and and worse with all of these films so but anyway but I'm very but really my point was given what because maybe I'll go back and you you can correct me on this but as I was reading your discussion of of that of dahome in that time period and and I was thinking again that the woman King in my head and in my note here I'm saying the woman King is meant to negate the the potential impact of your work that that it's it's meant to to to to to snatch a woman you know you know women leadership African women leadership and sort of take it away from the power that and the inspiration that I get from reading your work and put it into something that ultimately does not lead to any sort of aggressive conflict with Europeans or or leaves the discussion in the African versus African point which you were dressed in your in your book about the the the this narrative so that they were saying Africa all Africa but the the brother The Scholar from West Africa I was like who was talking about Africa as a continent in you know the early 1800s he's like there's actually some discourse about it so I thought with him and he enjoyed it very much but I I do I take your point I really do no so anyway so that that's so so I would just say again more inspiration for people to read your book if you whether you like the woman king or not if you can then then you have to follow up with or add uh Professor Hall's work to your to your consideration of this whatever so so one point never oh no I I I mean I that is how I read it honestly as I was reading that section and I don't pretend to fully understand all the details of the history you're describing and I'm not you know it was just that I was just like this is this is exactly what we're not meant to to to to get to um because of films like that but you you you no I get I get what you're saying you you raise a point that I definitely wanted to ask you about um this issue of one in ten first of all that they were one at one in one out of every 10 ships carrying enslaved Africans was forced to face a Revolt you said at least one in ten at least yes and that I'm reaching often no I figured you were grabbing something but but you know um that that that uh and that often and I don't remember if you ascribe a percentage to this or not but often enough at least these routine revolts were led by women and then you talk about the conditions on those ships that would explain why women were often in those leadership positions and I definitely wanted to to to bring that up you know as an example of what you do in your book first to talk about so first of all I think it's important to note that the research that showed that there were one in ten and one in ten ships there was a Revolt documented I didn't do that research that was research done by quantitative historians who created a database which is now the 36 000 slave ship wages it's online it's the transatlantic database in it you can search it which is cool but so when these when these um historians did this the first thing they asked the query the database is how many ships had your wolves and they found that one in ten had a Revolt which surprised everyone because the conditions are almost impossible you know on that kind of thing and then um then the question became well what's the difference between the ships that had revolts and the ships that didn't have revolts like what is the difference and what they found is is that the more women on a ship the more likely to be a revolt but then they immediately dismissed their own findings because mainstream historians position is that women didn't participate in Revolt right that was a manly Enterprise it was a masculine Enterprise so so I think that what so what I found when I was doing the research and this is one of the things I think people need to understand is like when you do critical historical research you need to ask yourself what are these documents being created for right who is it speaking to who's the audience so all this detailed documentation about revolts on ships were created for insurance purposes because companies like Lloyd's of London got their start Insurance slave ships and um the slave trade and one of the things they would insure against was something called the Insurrection of cargo and so I wanted to look and that required these and that was the title of your chapter right something about the yeah the Insurrection of Cairo that phrase always just like yeah I don't even know what to say about that but but um and so and then so so it got me to the UK and going through and so the the British slave trade was highly regulated in terms of how ships were run and you know and when it was the when the ship was on the coast of Africa everybody was in Chains below debt all the captives because they were worried about cutoffs right where where people would you know come from Shore attack the ship and free the captives but as soon as their ship was loaded and they got and they went into the Atlantic then they moved the women they Unchained the women and put them on the deck where the weapons are and it was actually a policy of how to run the slave trade was to keep women Unchained on Deck so the the the the beauty of it is and I didn't want to I didn't want to show too much of the book because I want to encourage people to get it but the beauty of it is and it's well depicted in in in in in in in in graphic display what I loved about it uh given and again I'm reading this through my own limited eyes and and the politics of today and in all of the discussions we're having today about uh gender and identity and and and it often seems that conflict and at odds I actually love this idea that fine you're going to categorize a group of people uh and identify their Womanhood as being inferior and soft fine because as soon as they get a chance they're grabbing weapons and they're giving it to the men they're freeing the men and then the men as you depicted are happy to then quickly accept the the the the the new role for their manhood and say fine you have freed us thank you pick up those same weapons and get busy and and I and I just and I just love that thank you thank you I mean I I read hundreds of slave ship captains logs and I mean it's incredible how oblivious it's like I there was one I wish I could had put it in the book but there wasn't room there was this revolt on a ship called the little George which was an entirely successful Revolt by the way I love those stories like they killed everybody but the Navigator gotta get somebody to get us home right when I was in Norway and I was telling this story to a high school auditorium you know they're like you know and they're like so Dr Hall are you saying that the takeaway is never kill the Navigator and I'm like say you save the drivers we need a pilot it's like no don't quote me if that's my that's my main point that's the takeaway um but anyway um the the captain's describing the revolt and the way he's I mean I literally dig into this thing like tabletop gaming you know and what he's describing he only sees men but what he's describing was impossible um it's like he they can't see it and occasionally you get letters where I can see where people are warning each other like you know um have don't have no trust in the women or your property here will be but small you know some people were kind of getting it you know and the children you said they even included they said the women and the children so even the kids were they were like sometimes and I loved that now I kept thinking that Emery Douglas my favorite Emery Douglas drawing where he wears the back of a woman holding her her child that is also holding a gun you see her holding a rifle and the child even had a gun I was like that I'm just I was like everybody needs to be a threat if we're all being enslaved so I I just love that uh uh anyway that's why I was saying I was so amped when I was you know and excited on Twitter to reach out and and to get this interview together because and I appreciate you even you know feeling rushed to do it because I was you know on this trip reading it like I don't know I I just I love it I love it anyway or Elon Musk deciding that my the cover of my book is insensitive so all of it because one leads to the other so so so what has been any if any of the ramifications of that other than like what does that mean when Elon Musk targets you as as as you know sensitive uh or insensitive I guess you know yeah showing uh strong black women is insensitive you know anyway I mean it's just it was just the cover of the book my pin tweet the cover of the book and then um they said you know they marked it for you know as insensitive that's insensitive it is insensitive to the wealth creation processes that have led to an Elon Musk right it is so shame on you Dr Hall shame on me um I just want to show real quick what I was thinking sure the original art from the book were sent to my office like Hugo my illustrator and I can't do anything without talking about him he's incredible right on he's an incredible artist um and just to see his art I mean he wasn't this is what he was a full-time pedicab driver when when you know I got him on board this project it's not like he but um so he thought Simon and Schuster sent him all the original art I mean he thought they sent it to me I thought they sent it to him and we're like it's still sitting in the studio so he got them to send it here and I had never seen the original art so here's look at this is um so wow it it just it gives me it gives me chills and yeah you know the lettering is another layer process so you don't you don't see the the letter in here but um and these are Big sheets like this one people seem to talk really be drawn to this page um you know these are really big sheets and then they get I thought I had a center stuff on the camera that and then they get um reduced in size which allows for a lot more detail and I also want to show one more thing which is sure sure this is kind of what I'm working on now I told the rack the Radcliffe Institute for advanced study and I was developing a black feminist methodology for re-covering the agency of black women in the archive um so that's what I'm working on is how to use Comics as a medium to recover you know uh our resistance and um are you a comic book fan uh like outside of Japan I I read them I read some of them I I appreciate them but I'm not like a big nerd you know um but the way the relationship between the panels I mean the elements of the graphic novel like the relationship between the panel and the gutter right so the panel is the here the gutter is the space between that's the temporal line in a comic you know you as the reader almost co-create the the story um because you're deciding the pacing where to look you know I mean if you want to see every frame or something you go to a movie right but Comics requires you to uh create a very complex care well careful relationship uh with using the frames and so I actually did this crazy podcast which I really loved and it had based on the Audio Drama and you know Professor saidia Hartman was saying you know Rebecca you're articulating a theory of time and I'm like I am I read anthropology of time books I read physics of time books I you know this this you know there is a river right I mean it's like we have been I've been connecting with Vincent Brown here he's an amazing scholar and you know he's like this this is what you know he says really beautifully that you know when we talk about the West you know we talk about Europe and I guess the United States it's like and their contributions but what did Africa contribute they hundreds of years struggle against exploitation that's what we bring and um it's powerful it is really powerful by the way in speaking in terms of the the time how you were just discussing time it made me think of in that first picture you showed of the what looks like I was think of a you know should be this the the you know some real superhero like Rising yeah tattooed on my arm here where is it here oh wow yeah oh wow yeah but yeah she um but but that's that if I remember correctly that's that's the the beginning of a chapter where you start talking about the the the the the continuity that that water allows in in in in um the the travel of sound and and and and you were doing something with that in terms of connecting over time right um it's the woman who I mean she's emerging after dying in this battle you know on she re-emerges right and that's that that's the circular part that's the afrofuturist part you know you go to the Past you grab what we need you know to fight for the future when we exist and thrive and help us understand what's going on now right I mean that's to me that's the that's the mission so um yeah and she she's in the beginning of the book you you know and then you see her she starts to appear kind of subtly in Shadows and Reflections for a close reader and then she emerges fully at the end of the book um yeah right on it's very very good yeah which I'm so excited about is is exactly it's called taking Freedom black women and emancipation I'm looking at for example I'm working on this chapter now about these black women and men too people who were just tearing up plantations you know just during during the Civil War you know I have all these these letters and journals from I call them my slave holding parents um where they're complaining you know they're like I went outside and they had killed all the livestock and had a huge feast or you know I went outside and told them to you know but they needed to get to work and they had built a Gallows in front of the house and they pointed it at it every time I asked them to do something so you know the idea that you know Lincoln freed the slaves you know or that Juneteenth I mean just don't even get me started so that's what I'm working on now and no I want to get you started on Juneteenth and and and at some point we you know yeah you can do it now if you want I you know but I you know by the way the 10 o'clock you know I I don't want you to feel rushed we don't it's not a hard like we have to and I just it's just a general time that I do and so I I'm happy to time check with you if you have a few more minutes um uh yeah um sure um one yeah and shout out to Ghana who just who just won excuse the contradiction yet again sorry about that but is this you know uh um the the uh oh I just now I just lost my train of thought I just messed myself up that's what I do that's that's my fault I do that all the time um no but you mentioned it that one of the things you talk about uh uh and I wanted you to elaborate on if you would are the the forms that Revolt would take the the the different ways that women would lead these revolts we talked about the way would happen on these ships uh and by the way I was just thinking again having been on an aircraft carrier in the middle of the Atlantic that in that alone can be terrifying so so the idea that people would have been on a much less technologically advanced ship and then willing to also risk and and even end their own lives to revolt against it the vastness of space being in the and if you've never been on the ocean to then look up and be in the middle of the Atlantic again even on an aircraft carrier it's daunting it is daunting I so so the idea that I I fully I mean well no I'm saying I don't fully understand but can can only on some level appreciate what those Africans were looking at and and deciding to to confront but what other forms uh uh did you find that that that women often ended up you know taking in terms of leading these revolts on the ship on ships anywhere anywhere anywhere I'm happy to hear about all of it anywhere I feel like you know and maybe that's my training as a historian that you know each place has a certain specificity so um my focus was on this 18th century because my PhD required because I was getting a PhD in Atlantic World colonial America so that was my time period and and so and um I think and I I was looking I've always been fascinated by Urban slavery and resistance and Northern slavery I mean my paternal grandparents were born enslaved I mean neither I mean one was enslaved in Tennessee another in Missouri these aren't Deep South States but um so it was important for me to ground the book I mean I'm from New York originally so it was important for me to ground the book you know in the North in an urban society and and so you know I'm like I was looking at two revolts in New York and um one of the things in the 1712 Revolt that is so fascinating is that most of the people in the diaspora I mean that most of the people who came from Africa to New York um you know they weren't trans shipped from the Caribbean or they weren't born in New York most of them were ocon speakers of the akan diaspora which is now in Ghana and so that icon you know the the Asante were quite aggressive in their period Imperial moves and a lot of people got pulled into the trade and um and so but you can study the diaspora all over you know the Atlantic world and you can like the burial practices that you see evidence in the African burial ground in New York City you know are so often akan you know the old thing ceremony that the enslaved people engaged in before the 1712 Revolt icon um and so yeah I mean it's it's fascinating right on right on absolutely and then I gotta be gently okay you know it's the freedom for me right have you seen that yeah of course you have but um you know the everything about it is wrong so it places it creates a national holiday based on the end of slavery and then dates it and connects it to the Emancipation Proclamation which didn't free anybody it did a free one enslaved person it was part of a series of what they call um what do they call it confiscation acts it's like a military thing when you're trying to undermine the enemies War material and capacity and you know and and the Emancipation Proclamation which was issued in you know 1863 uh said any slave in a state of rebellion is now free um first of all Lincoln didn't have jurisdiction over their states in rebellion and that left all the border states that left Washington DC itself all this all these people were still enslaved and I'm not even critiquing Lincoln that's not my point my point is that so then Juneteenth was a beautiful local black Texas holiday that celebrated you know when the Union Army came and provided the force needed to help to you know to provide support in their effort to free themselves and instead it gets put in is you didn't learn about your freedom that happened two years ago and we came to tell it to you because you're stupid you know it just drives me nuts I can't stand that kind of narrative and um foreign so slavery didn't end this country until the 13th amendment was passed in December 18 1865. um with that horrible exception in it but uh so the whole Narrative of Juneteenth is a white supremacist and you know I know a lot of black people wanted this to be a national holiday but frankly I don't know that they thought it through very much you know because it's it doesn't work as a national holiday other than as a tools of of Oppression that's my opinion I I love it fully fully agree uh yeah so so like do you want to talk are June teeth where it's like you don't want me to come talk on your June team program trust me I do so I'll be in contact with you again for that next year and in addition to all the work you have coming back coming forthcoming because I definitely wanted to to to stay more in touch and and follow up with it uh go back and even read some of the Articles you said that I can identify with that not many people see uh and I'm very glad you produce some work that will get it get more attention um one quick question if you don't mind I was wanting to ask you this myself since you mentioned it have you ever did you were you ever able to hear directly from your grandparents stories of enslavement Etc well so okay so here's the deal right the reason why me at 60 had paternal grandparents like my father's parents born enslaved they were each born in 1860. um is there was a huge generation skip in my family right um of course the fact that it's possible is the main point you know that it's possible to be two generations away from enslavement you know uh you know this thing that happened so long ago why do we keep thinking about it you know it has nothing to do with anything today oh no it actually doesn't and so um my father though beautifully so my father was born in 1898 and he was a black communist he uh his pen name is Harry Haywood and um he wrote his an autobiography where called black Bolshevik where he describes writes down stories from his family's his parents and grandparents that they told wait a minute did you just say you're related to him this is my father this is your father my I'm I'm often astounded at my own levels of ignorance so you have to forgive me and that and that this is just dropping in at the end uh it's not it's not my I mean I was as a child I was like oh you're the daughter of Harry Haywood so I I'm just like I have my own thing you know I'm my own person so I don't I don't bring it up a lot but he but his writing and his stories he told me are crucial and you know and that's what I was able to put in my book like the stories about his mother who he loved so much in his father who annoyed the shit out of him with his Booker T Washington nonsense uh but um so yeah that's how I have those those stories so my dad he died when he was 87 and I was 21. it was my 21st birthday actually um so yeah so forgive me for that and I appreciate what you're saying about having your own thing so I don't mean to disrespect your own independent but but that that was and I'm hoping you didn't mention this in wake and I missed that page or pages okay yeah I was about to say uh so anyway I just that's okay fair enough I uh no go ahead he dedicates the book to his kids and mentions me as you know and Becky which is what I was called as a child but yeah yeah well anyway today is my mother's birthday her mother uh was a Rebecca so shout out to Rebecca's and Becky's uh you know of a certain of a certain stripe at least I'm like you ruined my name bitch sorry I need to get off I'm getting Punchy no that's what's up we need that this is this is the good part because that's how I feel about all these damn Jareds out here from Subway to Kushner I'm like stop messing up my name anyway so so thank you so much I really appreciate it and I don't know what's going on with Twitter I'm getting more and more followers like my follower account increased by 20 since my things good but I have no idea like I've always been so kind of low I have like you know I have like 4 000 followers I've never been targeted I'm kind of like I only on Twitter so I can engage with my readers and talk with other authors and you know that's so I don't but so yeah suddenly you know they're they're kind of coming for me and we'll we'll see you know well that's good I all I've noticed about my own Twitter experience is that I get the exact same number of followers as I do unfollowers so I stay at exactly the same point for very it's it's very weird that as one comes one goes so uh you know but uh uh look I'm very happy that you've written this book I appreciate being even my lateness to your work and definitely want to stay in touch uh and and you know thank you for even you know the the little gem you just dropped there at the end and everything else in between uh and you know any please you know anytime you you you want to come back just let me know I will definitely be inviting you and we will we look forward to if nothing else seeing you uh for Juneteenth in 2023 okay see you then all right Dr Hall thank you peace to you because I know you're willing to fight for it take good care okay all right we're back in a second everybody I mix what I like what I like what I like what I like what I like [Music]