Muhammad Ali: Fighter, Minister, and Advocate

Quite an athlete. across from me. He used to be named Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr., and his business was price fighting. As a fighter, he became, in my opinion, and certainly in his own, the greatest. At the age of 25 now, he calls himself Muhammad Ali, and he's unemployed as a fighter. His title is gone, ripped away by various boxing commissions in the name of patriotism. He's been sentenced to five years in prison for refusing induction to the United States. army. Eight years ago, he stood on a podium in Rome, an American flag blowing in the breeze, the Star Spangled Banner being played. He was given a gold medal as an Olympic champion. People thought, here's a kid with a bright future, and he was known as the so-called credit to his race. He had talent in the ring and he had maybe more talent outside of it. He loved Ballyhoo. He loved putting on the nation with a great put on that he was the greatest. He maybe was the greatest poet since Robert Frost. At least he had more of his poetry published saying Archie Moore must go in for things like that. But then the day after he became champion, he turned off a lot of the country by revealing that he was a convert to a religious sect known popularly as the Black Muslims and formerly as the Black Muslims. the nation of Islam and that antagonized a lot of the American people. So now his principal role is as a Muslim minister. He's had a varied career, an exciting, bizarre, celebrated career, and now perhaps a discouraging career. Or is it discouraging right now with this five-year sentence? boxing boxing was only for self gain Just beating up one of my brothers or somebody else's brother for money possibly hurting them for life Which I didn't intend to do and I'm lucky. I never really did but I Would say I'm having getting more pleasure out of lecturing at the various Muslim mosque converting so-called Negroes You're a minister of the Muslim faith. Yes I don't know Elijah Muhammad we preachers or here his teachings throughout America to our people. And I enjoy this much better than boxing. If I didn't, I would still be boxing. I chose this over boxing. What about jail? Now, you're appealing, is that correct? Oh, yes, jail. That could come up, and if I should lose the pill, then I'll have to go to jail, and I'll be out of there in a few years. Have you thought about jail, what it might mean? Have you talked about people who have been in jail five years? Well, we'll talk about the honorable. Elijah Muhammad that black people actually been in jail for 400 years we've been here in America but uh I don't worry about jail if I believe in Allah I believe in Elijah Muhammad is the messenger of God and many great men have to go to jail and so I don't pay no attention to it the time comes I'll just have to go boys in Vietnam are dying for what they believe and I can't get on them for dying for what they believe leave so I'll just have to and they dine to free foreign people 10,000 miles away so I'll just have to suffer so that the so-called Negroes could be free so they could have idle and the image they can look up to they didn't sell them out do you think you can do more for your people by going to jail oh yes sir there's a report that your manager Herbert Muhammad advised you to enter the army is that no no no sir no sir he couldn't do nothing like that everything I do is of my own advised me to go to army. When did that report come out? That report was in a New York paper about two weeks ago. No, I didn't. This is just rumors. They can't believe that I'm this strong. They thought they would weaken me and put fear in me by threatening to go to jail and taking my earning power. And they won't let me work in America. The government won't let me leave America where I can work. And I'm getting stronger and this shakes up a lot of people to see that I'm this strong. It also makes other so-called Negroes strong who are facing the same problems. And in this way, I think I can do for them. more for my people they've never had a big black man they just stood up and identified with the struggle of his people a thousand percent once they can get them a white girl a blonde a brunette a hundred thousand dollar home or show on broadway usually every negro watching this show now will tell you that you can't talk to them they're too big to be with their own people they go marry other than their own kind and i'm so happy and proud to become great in boxing to become the greatest one that ever lived the greatest still the greatest yes sir the greatest boxer that ever lived of them. The first one that they had Take a title from in the history of all the red white and blue American title. I'm the first one that they tried to make the world believe that wasn't the champion and Never or that never has been beaten. What about this title now Ali? Can if you're in jail five years, can you come back and be the champion? Well, I don't know I'm not really worried about boxing the more I'm in the spiritual works that Elijah Muhammad preach is preaching the word of Allah God I forget about sports. It's not in my blood. I don't eat rice steaks no more. They make you vicious. I just eat lamb now and fish or holy foods and this keeps me from being vicious feeling and I really don't miss it. I have nothing else to gain. I beat the best German they had to offer, the best that Canada had to offer, England, the best that America had to offer, two-time United States Golden Glove champion, AAU champion twice, Olympic gold medal winner, defended the title nine times, predicted the rounds on my opponents. I wrote poems in poetic fashion, how they would fall. And there's, I cannot go no farther than sports. And first, another thing I like to say, I'm the only black man that black people can now say has a champion like, I would say, Marsana that's undefeated and retired. That's true. So Joe Lewis came back. He let the people down. He got beat. And Sugar Ray was a black pride. And they got him beat up. But I'm the first one that they never put me. So you think you might just stay undefeated? Yes, sir. Is there a conflict now? You say, and I certainly believe you and have been with you for long enough to know that you're very sincere in your beliefs, that you're a man of God, now a minister. Is there a conflict between that and being a price fighter? Well, yes. We don't believe in sports. A man of peace. We don't believe in sports. And Muslims you're speaking of. Right. We don't consider boxing men violent. It's just a sport. It's nothing. Our intention is not to kill. All we use is a fist and they're padded. We have referees, doctors, and judges at ringside. The intention is to beat the man, outpour him. And I've been criticized for not hurting me and been criticized for carrying him because I don't like to hurt nobody. I showed all this in my fights. But if I did fight again, the only reason would be was to get out of debt. This is the only way that I have to make the necessary money to pay my draft lawyers, which I owe $280,000 that I spent in the courts. $280,000 for your appeals and your trials and so on. for justice cost me that much and then other things back alimony to the wife and i can't pay nobody now because i'm not allowed to work and i had the country so if i did fight it'll be for those reasons with just boxing itself i could box tomorrow if i want to i could just go to gymnasium and box but it's the money three years ago when we were coming on the way from boston and big red your great bus with pudini brown otis 5x was driving We had quite a gang. You said to us, Whitey's getting the back of the bus, which we do if we did. And we had a lot of fun. And the last fight, just even though you had all this on your mind and all the pressure you were with Boudini, and you put on the Dracula masks with Saria, one of your trainers, and we had a great time up there. And people who knew you, and you've had a lot of criticism in the press, but people who lived with you and knew you, knew what kind of person you were, and you enjoyed being champion. And the people being around you and the notoriety and the... celebrity you enjoyed that do you miss that now no no as i said i can't go to i can't go no higher in boxing there's no one i could beat who could get me more praise than a boxer i'm always around people i'm still around people every day i'm around six of them traveling with me today every city i go to people are waiting for me i just left College here. MIT. MIT University. And you were well received by a predominantly white audience. Yes, everywhere I go. We was up at Fairleigh Dickinson in New York, CW Post, Iona University, Canisius University, and Penn State and Morgan State College. You like to be with people. Oh, yes. I mean that boxing didn't take nothing away from me as far as fame is concerned or people. I can always hold my head high, I can always put on a necktie, and I can talk. Most boxers, you bring them on the show now, even the ones fighting, they couldn't talk like I'm talking now. Well, nobody can talk like you can talk. Yeah, so I have lots to fall back on, so I can't just ask the question alone. I just can't miss boxing. Do you remember, Ali, that night when we were on the bus? We were in Yulee, Florida. We stopped to get some food. It was a Jim Crow diner. They threw Houdini out, and you didn't go in. I told him not to go at first. I told him not to go because I can tell. I went in first, and the man said something about we don't serve Negroes. I said, yes, sir, I'm sorry. And I went, because we who are Muslims don't believe in forcing our places of self. And you said to Boudini that night, you said, you're following Martin Luther King and people like that, and you're wrong. Did you not? No, I don't remember saying that. I didn't mention that. Him, I'm sure I didn't. But I think you said something about that wasn't the way to go about it. Well, I said if the man don't want you there, and this is his restaurant, and if he hates you that much to put you out or to shoot his own white brother to keep you out, there's a possibility that vanilla milkshake he won't. When he go back to fix it, he could, you know, spit in it. And I'm sure if somebody spit in the milkshake and mix it up, you couldn't see it. And I don't see why you... You have to be sick mentally to want to force yourself into places where you're not wanted. You see the man hate you. You see they don't want you down here. I want you to leave him alone. We're going somewhere else. He said, no, I'm going in. I'm an American. I'm American. I got a right to go. I said, well, come on out. I bet you I'll come out with what I want. Five minutes later, he came out with nothing. treat me like a man. I said, I told you, leave the people alone. They didn't want you. You just make yourself look like a fool. So we went on down the street and another white man said, we could eat him. Right, we could eat him. But tell us about the Muslims now. As I said, the day after you won, you remember that very well. Sonny Liston, the big old bear, as you call him, sat in his corner. Quit to you, you became champion of the world, everybody thought this is a refreshing young man. I always wondered what was his trainer talking about. I'll let you finish right after this. You know what his trainer was talking about when this one was selling the stool? No. He said, Sonny, Sonny, get up the bell rung. Sonny said, My mama didn't raise no fool, I'm staying right here on my stool. You got that poetry still going. What was he going to say? No, I was going to say that the next day, Ali, when everybody was saying the stereotype thing, here's a refreshing young man, we found out... You were a Muslim and people got scared. I got bad all of a sudden. People got scared. And you got bad all of a sudden. Right. Overnight. I was a good boy when I was hollering, I am the greatest. I cannot be beat. I am pretty. I'm the king. Hee, hee, hee, hee. I was a good boy. But when I said, I'm a Muslim. My religion is Islam. What's wrong with that? You have 600 million Muslims on earth. And Muslim only mean one who submits entirely to the will of God, Allah. And Islam only means... Peace, entire submission to God, and we don't believe in forcing ourselves on white people. Do you hate the whites? No, sir, we don't hate the whites. Why is that grown up, do you suppose, that the Muslims are a hate white group? No, this is false propaganda to scare Negroes, to keep them from coming, because Negroes by nature love their enemy, they pray for those who use them. Negroes by nature don't hate nobody. And so if they can make people think that we're a hate group, that'll frighten them. But we don't hate white people, we know white people, we know the history of white people. For example, if a tiger broke in this room now, I would beat you getting out. If a rattlesnake broke in here, I'd beat you getting off of this stage. I don't hate rattlesnakes. I don't hate tigers. I just know I can't get along with them. After learning the nature of the snake and the tiger, I don't want to try to eat with him or sleep with him because I know that he might bite me. You don't think that we can ever get along? I think that was your point. I know whites and blacks cannot get along. This is nature. It's getting worse every day. The latest government fact-finding committee. just said that things are becoming to be separate just two societies black and white that's what we've been telling you separation now the government admits that that's coming white women have got gun clubs all over the country should learn how to shoot the black targets i understand they're making guns that'll shoot through brick walls just to get negroes and and and do you believe that i know what i said mayor daly on chicago i think somebody ordered helicopters or something just with these rats and rotating machine guns on them and Oh, they breeding dogs that just attack black people. All kind of spray and miss and banana slick. What are you going to do now as one of the prominent black persons? Teach them all. A person who can be a leader. I'm not going to be a leader. What is your role in this perhaps civil war as people call it? I can't be a leader, but I can tell them about the leader. All I can tell them is to join on to their own kind, accept their own kind, join on to the true religion, which is Islam, join on to the Muslim teachings, which is... taught to us by the honorable Elijah Muhammad, the honest black man preaching the truth to black people. Clean up your own neighborhoods. Do something for yourself. Quit begging to integrate and beg to separate. Well, if number one, the honorable Elijah Muhammad and the religion of Islam has given me a beautiful name, Muhammad Ali, which is connecting me with some 56 Muslim countries. I have 56 government invitations. This is why Washington won't let me go to Japan to fight, because they're prosecuting eternity. I came to Houston and told the judge that if we let this man leave, he might not come back because he had 600 million Muslim brothers that were gladly making him a millionaire fugitive. So this is what it's done to me. I used to try to get love of whites and beg to be with whites. Now I can go sit with kings in Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Pakistan, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia. This has taught me a knowledge of myself, taught me to love and respect my own people, taught me to marry. my own women, all great Negroes. But you're obviously not uncomfortable with whites. Oh, no, I'm uncomfortable. Are you uncomfortable with me right now? No, I'm comfortable. I'm real comfortable with you. I know how far to go with you. I'm not going to go home with you now and flirt with your daughter. I'm not going to try to push you out of your suburb. I integrate so far. That's why I like Governor Wallace. He tells the truth. You like George Wallace? Yes, sir. That truth he tells, we like. He tells the truth. You believe that? I see him telling the truth. You don't believe he's been a tough influence in this country and a bad influence? Well, I don't agree with everything nobody says, but I like what he says when he says that Negroes shouldn't force themselves into white neighborhoods. and white people shouldn't have to move out of the neighborhoods just because one Negro comes. If they don't want to sell the house to them, they shouldn't, and that makes sense. If a person don't want you, why do you want to push yourself on them? Wallace is admitting that this ain't right, and let the people do what they want to do. They need local government where they can decide what they want to do in their own community, and just don't make some northern so-called liberal come in. and bust the neighborhood up and they all have to pack up and go somewhere else and always be uncomfortable. What would you say for your people? They're living in deplorable conditions in Chicago now. They're living in terrible conditions in Chicago. Oh, this is all over the world, living in terrible conditions. This is why Elijah Muhammad teaches us that they need some land of their own, where they can produce and build their own homes, schools, factories and hospitals, since they're suffering and been turned away from many whites, and get some land since we helped build America to be fit to the richest states on the planet. fault in all American wars to help maintain and uphold the government? Why not? Should we have some of the land where we can build and construct? Negroes are doctors, Negroes are lawyers, physicians, mechanics, plumbers, electricians. Why not? Can we go somewhere now and build a future for our children such as other people? Why should we just remain beggars and employees? Why not? Can we go and a job is not going to help our children? In other words, you want some land. In the United States, we have... Dr. Elijah Muhammad teaches us that God taught him, not me, that this land should be here or elsewhere, just like all people. No people can be free and independent without land. No people can be free if they can't feed themselves. No people can be free if they don't clothe themselves. Negroes are 22 million people, Elijah Muhammad teaches us. We don't make shoe strings. 22 million people don't have a toothpick factory. 22 million people, if you white people closed the grocery stores tomorrow, we would starve to death. But you have your own stores. Oh, he's Elijah Muhammad's buying hundreds of thousands of acres of farmland throughout the country, canning up food and taking it to supermarkets and his restaurants. He's building all over the country. He's got his own college, his universities. He's on radio worldwide now, national in America. He's on TV in Washington. He prints two million newspapers a week called Muhammad Speaks. And he's got mosques and temples all over the country. He is the black man for black people to follow. He's not just asking for a job. He's not just asking for a house in a white neighborhood. This is nothing. See, Negroes are actually fighting for equality with the white man's dog. You might say, why? Well, when they say, we want open housing, they still not getting nothing the dog ain't got. The dog sleeps in the house with white people, in the bed, many of them. and Negroes want to ride on the best transportation up front with the white people. The dogs do better than that. He rides right in the front seat. I see them when the sun's shining. Dogs ride right in the front seat of the car. And Negroes, they want to eat the white man's restaurant and this and that. Still, the dogs eat at the same plate. I see this. So in reality, the Negro's not fighting for equality with the white man. He's fighting for equality with the white man's dog. To be equal with the man, he needs some airports. He needs some train stations, some television companies, some water plants. He needs some farmland. It's going to be hard to get, though, isn't it? Not if he has some land of his own. He has some land. And if the white man gave him justice and repaid him for building up this country and working 310 years without a payday... Some people like Stokely Carmichael and Raph Brown say that the white man will not do this, though. Well, they have to be militant. They are militant. You, I think, probably know these men, do you not? I know I'm good. We would look like fools trying to be violent against the most powerful military country on Earth. We would look like bulls running down a railroad track head-on into a locomotive train. You might say, look at that brave bull. But when that bull come head-on with that train... All he will have left as his monument is his blood and his flesh on the tracks. See, we can't be powerful against the man who makes the bullets, who makes the guns. We look like fools with a pop gun hiding on the roof shooting at the army. If every Negro had a machine gun, a tank, a bazooka, a year's round of ammunition and a good hideout, we wouldn't have a chance because we don't control no food. After two or three days, we'd be hungry. For us to be violent against America, we would have to have superior weapons than America. and we don't have the factors nor the earth to dig the material to manufacture the weapons and if we would get the weapons we would have to get them for you and i'm sure you are not going to give uh negroes weapons to shoot you with so i'm not here to talk so i don't agree with stoke i don't agree with rap brown i don't agree with martin the late mountain luther king we're all black people who are fighting for freedom just in quality everybody have their approach there's a war going on in vietnam one man fights from the air one man fights from the land one man fights from on top of the water one man fights in the submarine under the water one man comes from the he's a secret service man on spot they all fight the same common enemies they say the of North of the needs and people but they have different approaches negros have different approaches for their freedom one man believe in integrating one day we all be with White, he say, look like white people after 200 years. One believes education and politics will solve it. One believes shooting and looting and burning up the country will solve it. One man believes integration will solve it. And we believe separation somewhere to ourselves will solve it. So we're not here to talk about these fellows. The same dog that bit them bit me and is biting me. But we just don't agree with their approach to the freedom. But we all are for them if they are sincere in their way. And one day we hope that they will all soon recognize the true leader, Elijah Muhammad. and we'll all soon be Muslims. What do you think will happen? Elijah Muhammad is a very old man. One day he must die like we all do. He will die. One day he'll die. What do you think will happen to your group? Well, when he dies, we will be in heaven. We'll be in the hereafter on earth. America will be destroyed, and this will all be over. The Negroes with America will go down with America. When he dies? When he dies, we will be free. His work will be over. We have a few just around the corner. We don't have a lot of more years in America. Tell us about it. And I would like to say that Moses died too. Noah died. Lot died. All of God's prophets died. But they accomplished their missions. You consider Elijah Muhammad a prophet of God? He's a messenger. He's not here to tell us what's going to happen. He's telling us what's happening. He's a messenger. He's the messenger of Allah to the so-called Negroes. What about your own life now? You're married, you have a young wife. Yeah, I got a little baby on the way in about a month and a half. I'll have another little boy, I hope, and I'm young enough to hold the crown until he's around. Do you think you'll be the champion? Well, I don't think I want him to box. I'm going to send him to school. And I'm going to make him study and work, and he's going to be a wise man. He won't box. You're living in Chicago now. Right. Bought me a nice little home there and fixed it up nice. Still got it in the Cadillac? Beautiful 18-year-old Muslim girl. Oh yes, I got a couple of them old Cadillacs, but I'm trying to get my airplane. Cars are too slow. I travel so much. Every day I'm in certain cities and I'm always moving. I always have calls and driving a kid with me. And so, and I would like to have my own private plane and now I'm pricing a Learjet. And I have a company in Kansas City where they make those things, Wichita. They are working now with giving me a good deal on one where I maybe probably could lease it. I guess I'll pry into your personal affairs. There have been so many stories that you've been like Joe Lewis, that you're broke. You owe your lawyers $280,000 on one hand, now you talk about buying a learjet. Yeah, I'm about gone. I said lease, see. Lease, I see. Did you ever say lease at the end? Yeah. But tax will pay for it anyway. But what I'm trying to say is that, yeah, I'm just about broke. I'm not allowed to work here now in America. I'm not allowed to leave America. I'm not like Joe Louis. I didn't fight 13 years. You had 29 fights and won them all. Yeah, but I only had 9 title fights. And out of those 9 big title fights, my cut was $2 million. My cut, after everybody got paid. After everything. That was your cut, $2 million. No, not after everything. This was before taxes. Before taxes. Yeah, after my manager was paid, after my opponent was paid, the peanut man, the popcorn man, and everybody. My cut was $2 million. And out of two million, the ten white men, the black men in Louisville, they made a deal with the government behind my back. I knew nothing about it. Real quick, they made a deal with the government where they would give the government 90% of all my earnings before I got them. This was called the Joe Louis Law to keep me from being broke, they say. But 90% of my $2 million went to the American government. So that only left me 10% out of $2 million. to live on. And out of that I had to pay $150,000 to get rid of my first wife because she wouldn't join the faith. And then naturally it cost me money to live. So the money's about gone. And not only me, I don't know why people are so confused over one Negro boxer getting low in funds or depleted in funds when America's broke. America's now canceling trips and things to save money. So if you know if big powerful America can get broke. You know a little negro boxer can get broke. Well, that's true. You can. You've severed all connections now with your management group in Louisville. Which is the group that brought you on. Did you leave them in a friendly manner? Oh, yeah. A contract ran out. They wanted to renew it, but they didn't want to give me the price for it, so we just had to find another manager. You go back to Louisville often to see your mother and father? Oh yes, I was there two days ago. I was in Louisville, but I don't have time to stay there too much. The town looks so small and the people move so slow. Friends are raised up, we'll still stand on the same corner. Ain't doing nothing, just hanging around the same places. When you get out and travel and knowledge, when you get knowledge, wisdom, understanding, when you've been around the world a couple of times like me, talking to wise men like you, newspaper men, and on all these TV shows, This makes you wise and intelligent. When you go back to these little one-horse towns, you just can't stay there two hours. After a day, I'm ready to get out. Well, you gotta move. I've noticed that about you. You like to move. You're a restless person. Even in jail, I'm gonna have a moving plan. Move you from cell to cell? I don't know, have you gotten any specific word about when they will act on your appeal? I got a letter the other day that said, get ready, because they are cleaning out your cell to take you on the trail to the jail cell without bail. Without bail. And are you getting ready? Yeah, if I have to, I told my wife, she's packing up a few things, and I left a certain money I buried for her to go back to. You buried? You better watch the IRS, probably watching this show. That's alright, I buried a lot of money that I make. taxes. I make a little money like if I make $1,500 on speaking engagement, I give the government that 30%. Then I take what's left of mine. I don't put it in the banks because banks might go broke or they might get robbed. I just take my money and I hide it here and hide it there and tell her where the hideouts are. Well, you're not too worried. Now, Bill Russell, whom you know, of course, who coaches the Boston Celtics here, I said to him two years ago, I said, it's a shame that this boy, who's such an attractive boy and such a fine guy and a good fighter, may wind up pro, like Joe Lewis. And he said, well, that just shows that you don't understand. And he said, you just don't understand that that's why we admire him so, is it because he's ready to give up everything for his religion? Yeah, I have one. and go around and do this. And they don't equate you with Joe Louis at all. These people you're talking about, they spent money on white women. They set up bars, and they went playing pool and golf for $1,000 a hole. And they were known to make millions and millions when there wasn't no high taxes, and they were not hindered by white America. They were allowed to see. The white America has completely closed all the doors on me. I'm not allowed to work in America, out of America. I was stopped right in my prime just when I started making money. So you can't compare me with nobody like Joe Lewis or nobody. I don't think we can compare you with anybody. Yes, and tomorrow I can go back to get the money. If I would only deny my faith, if I would only join up against my religion, I could easily go back to making millions. So I can always say that I turned this down. I didn't lose it. I turned it down. And I go out still with my head high. You've always had your head high, Muhammad. Yes, I think, and I'm not what they call Uncle Tom. And money, the flesh and the blood of my freedom, the flesh and the blood and the freedom of my people comes before money. And this is why black people are nowhere today. The white man, such as you are saying now, they're always talking about money. You're broke. Are you losing money? They threaten our people with money. You won't eat. How are you going to live? Well, this is why we are nowhere today. Because every time a black man get in a position where all the babies are following him, where all the youth is following him, then he's yours. They're all looking when you're moving around, aren't they? Yeah, he's, who's looking? Everybody's looking when you're there. They like to see you come in, the babies and everybody. Oh, yeah, so I feel proud. I can tell him he's the greatest. I can tell him to be somebody. I can tell him to fear not. What are you losing? Look what I did. Now I can preach. This all helps what I'm standing for. And I'm just happy. Everything I'm doing, I like. People see me and say, why are you not tired? Oh, looking great. You're so happy. Where are your bodyguards? You don't have no bodyguards? I said, I haven't done nothing. Well, it's great to have you with us, Muhammad Ali, Price Fighting Champion, minister to his people now, Muhammad Ali. Thank you. And I want Joe Frazier as soon as you get him. Okay, Joe Frazier for the title.

Quite an athlete. across from me. He used to be named Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr., and his business was price fighting.

As a fighter, he became, in my opinion, and certainly in his own, the greatest. At the age of 25 now, he calls himself Muhammad Ali, and he's unemployed as a fighter. His title is gone, ripped away by various boxing commissions in the name of patriotism.

He's been sentenced to five years in prison for refusing induction to the United States. army. Eight years ago, he stood on a podium in Rome, an American flag blowing in the breeze, the Star Spangled Banner being played.

He was given a gold medal as an Olympic champion. People thought, here's a kid with a bright future, and he was known as the so-called credit to his race. He had talent in the ring and he had maybe more talent outside of it.

He loved Ballyhoo. He loved putting on the nation with a great put on that he was the greatest. He maybe was the greatest poet since Robert Frost.

At least he had more of his poetry published saying Archie Moore must go in for things like that. But then the day after he became champion, he turned off a lot of the country by revealing that he was a convert to a religious sect known popularly as the Black Muslims and formerly as the Black Muslims. the nation of Islam and that antagonized a lot of the American people. So now his principal role is as a Muslim minister. He's had a varied career, an exciting, bizarre, celebrated career, and now perhaps a discouraging career.

Or is it discouraging right now with this five-year sentence? boxing boxing was only for self gain Just beating up one of my brothers or somebody else's brother for money possibly hurting them for life Which I didn't intend to do and I'm lucky. I never really did but I Would say I'm having getting more pleasure out of lecturing at the various Muslim mosque converting so-called Negroes You're a minister of the Muslim faith. Yes I don't know Elijah Muhammad we preachers or here his teachings throughout America to our people.

And I enjoy this much better than boxing. If I didn't, I would still be boxing. I chose this over boxing. What about jail? Now, you're appealing, is that correct?

Oh, yes, jail. That could come up, and if I should lose the pill, then I'll have to go to jail, and I'll be out of there in a few years. Have you thought about jail, what it might mean? Have you talked about people who have been in jail five years?

Well, we'll talk about the honorable. Elijah Muhammad that black people actually been in jail for 400 years we've been here in America but uh I don't worry about jail if I believe in Allah I believe in Elijah Muhammad is the messenger of God and many great men have to go to jail and so I don't pay no attention to it the time comes I'll just have to go boys in Vietnam are dying for what they believe and I can't get on them for dying for what they believe leave so I'll just have to and they dine to free foreign people 10,000 miles away so I'll just have to suffer so that the so-called Negroes could be free so they could have idle and the image they can look up to they didn't sell them out do you think you can do more for your people by going to jail oh yes sir there's a report that your manager Herbert Muhammad advised you to enter the army is that no no no sir no sir he couldn't do nothing like that everything I do is of my own advised me to go to army. When did that report come out?

That report was in a New York paper about two weeks ago. No, I didn't. This is just rumors. They can't believe that I'm this strong. They thought they would weaken me and put fear in me by threatening to go to jail and taking my earning power.

And they won't let me work in America. The government won't let me leave America where I can work. And I'm getting stronger and this shakes up a lot of people to see that I'm this strong.

It also makes other so-called Negroes strong who are facing the same problems. And in this way, I think I can do for them. more for my people they've never had a big black man they just stood up and identified with the struggle of his people a thousand percent once they can get them a white girl a blonde a brunette a hundred thousand dollar home or show on broadway usually every negro watching this show now will tell you that you can't talk to them they're too big to be with their own people they go marry other than their own kind and i'm so happy and proud to become great in boxing to become the greatest one that ever lived the greatest still the greatest yes sir the greatest boxer that ever lived of them.

The first one that they had Take a title from in the history of all the red white and blue American title. I'm the first one that they tried to make the world believe that wasn't the champion and Never or that never has been beaten. What about this title now Ali?

Can if you're in jail five years, can you come back and be the champion? Well, I don't know I'm not really worried about boxing the more I'm in the spiritual works that Elijah Muhammad preach is preaching the word of Allah God I forget about sports. It's not in my blood.

I don't eat rice steaks no more. They make you vicious. I just eat lamb now and fish or holy foods and this keeps me from being vicious feeling and I really don't miss it.

I have nothing else to gain. I beat the best German they had to offer, the best that Canada had to offer, England, the best that America had to offer, two-time United States Golden Glove champion, AAU champion twice, Olympic gold medal winner, defended the title nine times, predicted the rounds on my opponents. I wrote poems in poetic fashion, how they would fall.

And there's, I cannot go no farther than sports. And first, another thing I like to say, I'm the only black man that black people can now say has a champion like, I would say, Marsana that's undefeated and retired. That's true. So Joe Lewis came back. He let the people down.

He got beat. And Sugar Ray was a black pride. And they got him beat up. But I'm the first one that they never put me.

So you think you might just stay undefeated? Yes, sir. Is there a conflict now?

You say, and I certainly believe you and have been with you for long enough to know that you're very sincere in your beliefs, that you're a man of God, now a minister. Is there a conflict between that and being a price fighter? Well, yes. We don't believe in sports.

A man of peace. We don't believe in sports. And Muslims you're speaking of. Right.

We don't consider boxing men violent. It's just a sport. It's nothing.

Our intention is not to kill. All we use is a fist and they're padded. We have referees, doctors, and judges at ringside.

The intention is to beat the man, outpour him. And I've been criticized for not hurting me and been criticized for carrying him because I don't like to hurt nobody. I showed all this in my fights. But if I did fight again, the only reason would be was to get out of debt.

This is the only way that I have to make the necessary money to pay my draft lawyers, which I owe $280,000 that I spent in the courts. $280,000 for your appeals and your trials and so on. for justice cost me that much and then other things back alimony to the wife and i can't pay nobody now because i'm not allowed to work and i had the country so if i did fight it'll be for those reasons with just boxing itself i could box tomorrow if i want to i could just go to gymnasium and box but it's the money three years ago when we were coming on the way from boston and big red your great bus with pudini brown otis 5x was driving We had quite a gang.

You said to us, Whitey's getting the back of the bus, which we do if we did. And we had a lot of fun. And the last fight, just even though you had all this on your mind and all the pressure you were with Boudini, and you put on the Dracula masks with Saria, one of your trainers, and we had a great time up there. And people who knew you, and you've had a lot of criticism in the press, but people who lived with you and knew you, knew what kind of person you were, and you enjoyed being champion.

And the people being around you and the notoriety and the... celebrity you enjoyed that do you miss that now no no as i said i can't go to i can't go no higher in boxing there's no one i could beat who could get me more praise than a boxer i'm always around people i'm still around people every day i'm around six of them traveling with me today every city i go to people are waiting for me i just left College here. MIT.

MIT University. And you were well received by a predominantly white audience. Yes, everywhere I go. We was up at Fairleigh Dickinson in New York, CW Post, Iona University, Canisius University, and Penn State and Morgan State College.

You like to be with people. Oh, yes. I mean that boxing didn't take nothing away from me as far as fame is concerned or people.

I can always hold my head high, I can always put on a necktie, and I can talk. Most boxers, you bring them on the show now, even the ones fighting, they couldn't talk like I'm talking now. Well, nobody can talk like you can talk.

Yeah, so I have lots to fall back on, so I can't just ask the question alone. I just can't miss boxing. Do you remember, Ali, that night when we were on the bus? We were in Yulee, Florida. We stopped to get some food.

It was a Jim Crow diner. They threw Houdini out, and you didn't go in. I told him not to go at first.

I told him not to go because I can tell. I went in first, and the man said something about we don't serve Negroes. I said, yes, sir, I'm sorry.

And I went, because we who are Muslims don't believe in forcing our places of self. And you said to Boudini that night, you said, you're following Martin Luther King and people like that, and you're wrong. Did you not?

No, I don't remember saying that. I didn't mention that. Him, I'm sure I didn't. But I think you said something about that wasn't the way to go about it.

Well, I said if the man don't want you there, and this is his restaurant, and if he hates you that much to put you out or to shoot his own white brother to keep you out, there's a possibility that vanilla milkshake he won't. When he go back to fix it, he could, you know, spit in it. And I'm sure if somebody spit in the milkshake and mix it up, you couldn't see it. And I don't see why you...

You have to be sick mentally to want to force yourself into places where you're not wanted. You see the man hate you. You see they don't want you down here.

I want you to leave him alone. We're going somewhere else. He said, no, I'm going in.

I'm an American. I'm American. I got a right to go.

I said, well, come on out. I bet you I'll come out with what I want. Five minutes later, he came out with nothing. treat me like a man. I said, I told you, leave the people alone.

They didn't want you. You just make yourself look like a fool. So we went on down the street and another white man said, we could eat him.

Right, we could eat him. But tell us about the Muslims now. As I said, the day after you won, you remember that very well.

Sonny Liston, the big old bear, as you call him, sat in his corner. Quit to you, you became champion of the world, everybody thought this is a refreshing young man. I always wondered what was his trainer talking about.

I'll let you finish right after this. You know what his trainer was talking about when this one was selling the stool? No. He said, Sonny, Sonny, get up the bell rung.

Sonny said, My mama didn't raise no fool, I'm staying right here on my stool. You got that poetry still going. What was he going to say? No, I was going to say that the next day, Ali, when everybody was saying the stereotype thing, here's a refreshing young man, we found out... You were a Muslim and people got scared.

I got bad all of a sudden. People got scared. And you got bad all of a sudden. Right. Overnight.

I was a good boy when I was hollering, I am the greatest. I cannot be beat. I am pretty.

I'm the king. Hee, hee, hee, hee. I was a good boy.

But when I said, I'm a Muslim. My religion is Islam. What's wrong with that?

You have 600 million Muslims on earth. And Muslim only mean one who submits entirely to the will of God, Allah. And Islam only means...

Peace, entire submission to God, and we don't believe in forcing ourselves on white people. Do you hate the whites? No, sir, we don't hate the whites.

Why is that grown up, do you suppose, that the Muslims are a hate white group? No, this is false propaganda to scare Negroes, to keep them from coming, because Negroes by nature love their enemy, they pray for those who use them. Negroes by nature don't hate nobody. And so if they can make people think that we're a hate group, that'll frighten them.

But we don't hate white people, we know white people, we know the history of white people. For example, if a tiger broke in this room now, I would beat you getting out. If a rattlesnake broke in here, I'd beat you getting off of this stage.

I don't hate rattlesnakes. I don't hate tigers. I just know I can't get along with them. After learning the nature of the snake and the tiger, I don't want to try to eat with him or sleep with him because I know that he might bite me. You don't think that we can ever get along?

I think that was your point. I know whites and blacks cannot get along. This is nature.

It's getting worse every day. The latest government fact-finding committee. just said that things are becoming to be separate just two societies black and white that's what we've been telling you separation now the government admits that that's coming white women have got gun clubs all over the country should learn how to shoot the black targets i understand they're making guns that'll shoot through brick walls just to get negroes and and and do you believe that i know what i said mayor daly on chicago i think somebody ordered helicopters or something just with these rats and rotating machine guns on them and Oh, they breeding dogs that just attack black people. All kind of spray and miss and banana slick.

What are you going to do now as one of the prominent black persons? Teach them all. A person who can be a leader. I'm not going to be a leader. What is your role in this perhaps civil war as people call it?

I can't be a leader, but I can tell them about the leader. All I can tell them is to join on to their own kind, accept their own kind, join on to the true religion, which is Islam, join on to the Muslim teachings, which is... taught to us by the honorable Elijah Muhammad, the honest black man preaching the truth to black people. Clean up your own neighborhoods.

Do something for yourself. Quit begging to integrate and beg to separate. Well, if number one, the honorable Elijah Muhammad and the religion of Islam has given me a beautiful name, Muhammad Ali, which is connecting me with some 56 Muslim countries.

I have 56 government invitations. This is why Washington won't let me go to Japan to fight, because they're prosecuting eternity. I came to Houston and told the judge that if we let this man leave, he might not come back because he had 600 million Muslim brothers that were gladly making him a millionaire fugitive.

So this is what it's done to me. I used to try to get love of whites and beg to be with whites. Now I can go sit with kings in Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Pakistan, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia.

This has taught me a knowledge of myself, taught me to love and respect my own people, taught me to marry. my own women, all great Negroes. But you're obviously not uncomfortable with whites.

Oh, no, I'm uncomfortable. Are you uncomfortable with me right now? No, I'm comfortable. I'm real comfortable with you. I know how far to go with you.

I'm not going to go home with you now and flirt with your daughter. I'm not going to try to push you out of your suburb. I integrate so far.

That's why I like Governor Wallace. He tells the truth. You like George Wallace?

Yes, sir. That truth he tells, we like. He tells the truth.

You believe that? I see him telling the truth. You don't believe he's been a tough influence in this country and a bad influence?

Well, I don't agree with everything nobody says, but I like what he says when he says that Negroes shouldn't force themselves into white neighborhoods. and white people shouldn't have to move out of the neighborhoods just because one Negro comes. If they don't want to sell the house to them, they shouldn't, and that makes sense. If a person don't want you, why do you want to push yourself on them? Wallace is admitting that this ain't right, and let the people do what they want to do.

They need local government where they can decide what they want to do in their own community, and just don't make some northern so-called liberal come in. and bust the neighborhood up and they all have to pack up and go somewhere else and always be uncomfortable. What would you say for your people? They're living in deplorable conditions in Chicago now.

They're living in terrible conditions in Chicago. Oh, this is all over the world, living in terrible conditions. This is why Elijah Muhammad teaches us that they need some land of their own, where they can produce and build their own homes, schools, factories and hospitals, since they're suffering and been turned away from many whites, and get some land since we helped build America to be fit to the richest states on the planet.

fault in all American wars to help maintain and uphold the government? Why not? Should we have some of the land where we can build and construct? Negroes are doctors, Negroes are lawyers, physicians, mechanics, plumbers, electricians.

Why not? Can we go somewhere now and build a future for our children such as other people? Why should we just remain beggars and employees?

Why not? Can we go and a job is not going to help our children? In other words, you want some land.

In the United States, we have... Dr. Elijah Muhammad teaches us that God taught him, not me, that this land should be here or elsewhere, just like all people. No people can be free and independent without land. No people can be free if they can't feed themselves. No people can be free if they don't clothe themselves.

Negroes are 22 million people, Elijah Muhammad teaches us. We don't make shoe strings. 22 million people don't have a toothpick factory. 22 million people, if you white people closed the grocery stores tomorrow, we would starve to death.

But you have your own stores. Oh, he's Elijah Muhammad's buying hundreds of thousands of acres of farmland throughout the country, canning up food and taking it to supermarkets and his restaurants. He's building all over the country.

He's got his own college, his universities. He's on radio worldwide now, national in America. He's on TV in Washington. He prints two million newspapers a week called Muhammad Speaks. And he's got mosques and temples all over the country.

He is the black man for black people to follow. He's not just asking for a job. He's not just asking for a house in a white neighborhood. This is nothing.

See, Negroes are actually fighting for equality with the white man's dog. You might say, why? Well, when they say, we want open housing, they still not getting nothing the dog ain't got.

The dog sleeps in the house with white people, in the bed, many of them. and Negroes want to ride on the best transportation up front with the white people. The dogs do better than that. He rides right in the front seat. I see them when the sun's shining.

Dogs ride right in the front seat of the car. And Negroes, they want to eat the white man's restaurant and this and that. Still, the dogs eat at the same plate. I see this. So in reality, the Negro's not fighting for equality with the white man.

He's fighting for equality with the white man's dog. To be equal with the man, he needs some airports. He needs some train stations, some television companies, some water plants.

He needs some farmland. It's going to be hard to get, though, isn't it? Not if he has some land of his own.

He has some land. And if the white man gave him justice and repaid him for building up this country and working 310 years without a payday... Some people like Stokely Carmichael and Raph Brown say that the white man will not do this, though.

Well, they have to be militant. They are militant. You, I think, probably know these men, do you not? I know I'm good. We would look like fools trying to be violent against the most powerful military country on Earth.

We would look like bulls running down a railroad track head-on into a locomotive train. You might say, look at that brave bull. But when that bull come head-on with that train... All he will have left as his monument is his blood and his flesh on the tracks. See, we can't be powerful against the man who makes the bullets, who makes the guns.

We look like fools with a pop gun hiding on the roof shooting at the army. If every Negro had a machine gun, a tank, a bazooka, a year's round of ammunition and a good hideout, we wouldn't have a chance because we don't control no food. After two or three days, we'd be hungry.

For us to be violent against America, we would have to have superior weapons than America. and we don't have the factors nor the earth to dig the material to manufacture the weapons and if we would get the weapons we would have to get them for you and i'm sure you are not going to give uh negroes weapons to shoot you with so i'm not here to talk so i don't agree with stoke i don't agree with rap brown i don't agree with martin the late mountain luther king we're all black people who are fighting for freedom just in quality everybody have their approach there's a war going on in vietnam one man fights from the air one man fights from the land one man fights from on top of the water one man fights in the submarine under the water one man comes from the he's a secret service man on spot they all fight the same common enemies they say the of North of the needs and people but they have different approaches negros have different approaches for their freedom one man believe in integrating one day we all be with White, he say, look like white people after 200 years. One believes education and politics will solve it.

One believes shooting and looting and burning up the country will solve it. One man believes integration will solve it. And we believe separation somewhere to ourselves will solve it.

So we're not here to talk about these fellows. The same dog that bit them bit me and is biting me. But we just don't agree with their approach to the freedom. But we all are for them if they are sincere in their way. And one day we hope that they will all soon recognize the true leader, Elijah Muhammad.

and we'll all soon be Muslims. What do you think will happen? Elijah Muhammad is a very old man.

One day he must die like we all do. He will die. One day he'll die.

What do you think will happen to your group? Well, when he dies, we will be in heaven. We'll be in the hereafter on earth.

America will be destroyed, and this will all be over. The Negroes with America will go down with America. When he dies?

When he dies, we will be free. His work will be over. We have a few just around the corner.

We don't have a lot of more years in America. Tell us about it. And I would like to say that Moses died too.

Noah died. Lot died. All of God's prophets died.

But they accomplished their missions. You consider Elijah Muhammad a prophet of God? He's a messenger.

He's not here to tell us what's going to happen. He's telling us what's happening. He's a messenger. He's the messenger of Allah to the so-called Negroes. What about your own life now?

You're married, you have a young wife. Yeah, I got a little baby on the way in about a month and a half. I'll have another little boy, I hope, and I'm young enough to hold the crown until he's around. Do you think you'll be the champion? Well, I don't think I want him to box.

I'm going to send him to school. And I'm going to make him study and work, and he's going to be a wise man. He won't box.

You're living in Chicago now. Right. Bought me a nice little home there and fixed it up nice. Still got it in the Cadillac? Beautiful 18-year-old Muslim girl.

Oh yes, I got a couple of them old Cadillacs, but I'm trying to get my airplane. Cars are too slow. I travel so much. Every day I'm in certain cities and I'm always moving. I always have calls and driving a kid with me.

And so, and I would like to have my own private plane and now I'm pricing a Learjet. And I have a company in Kansas City where they make those things, Wichita. They are working now with giving me a good deal on one where I maybe probably could lease it.

I guess I'll pry into your personal affairs. There have been so many stories that you've been like Joe Lewis, that you're broke. You owe your lawyers $280,000 on one hand, now you talk about buying a learjet. Yeah, I'm about gone.

I said lease, see. Lease, I see. Did you ever say lease at the end?

Yeah. But tax will pay for it anyway. But what I'm trying to say is that, yeah, I'm just about broke. I'm not allowed to work here now in America. I'm not allowed to leave America.

I'm not like Joe Louis. I didn't fight 13 years. You had 29 fights and won them all.

Yeah, but I only had 9 title fights. And out of those 9 big title fights, my cut was $2 million. My cut, after everybody got paid.

After everything. That was your cut, $2 million. No, not after everything. This was before taxes. Before taxes.

Yeah, after my manager was paid, after my opponent was paid, the peanut man, the popcorn man, and everybody. My cut was $2 million. And out of two million, the ten white men, the black men in Louisville, they made a deal with the government behind my back. I knew nothing about it.

Real quick, they made a deal with the government where they would give the government 90% of all my earnings before I got them. This was called the Joe Louis Law to keep me from being broke, they say. But 90% of my $2 million went to the American government. So that only left me 10% out of $2 million. to live on.

And out of that I had to pay $150,000 to get rid of my first wife because she wouldn't join the faith. And then naturally it cost me money to live. So the money's about gone. And not only me, I don't know why people are so confused over one Negro boxer getting low in funds or depleted in funds when America's broke.

America's now canceling trips and things to save money. So if you know if big powerful America can get broke. You know a little negro boxer can get broke.

Well, that's true. You can. You've severed all connections now with your management group in Louisville. Which is the group that brought you on. Did you leave them in a friendly manner?

Oh, yeah. A contract ran out. They wanted to renew it, but they didn't want to give me the price for it, so we just had to find another manager. You go back to Louisville often to see your mother and father?

Oh yes, I was there two days ago. I was in Louisville, but I don't have time to stay there too much. The town looks so small and the people move so slow.

Friends are raised up, we'll still stand on the same corner. Ain't doing nothing, just hanging around the same places. When you get out and travel and knowledge, when you get knowledge, wisdom, understanding, when you've been around the world a couple of times like me, talking to wise men like you, newspaper men, and on all these TV shows, This makes you wise and intelligent. When you go back to these little one-horse towns, you just can't stay there two hours. After a day, I'm ready to get out.

Well, you gotta move. I've noticed that about you. You like to move.

You're a restless person. Even in jail, I'm gonna have a moving plan. Move you from cell to cell?

I don't know, have you gotten any specific word about when they will act on your appeal? I got a letter the other day that said, get ready, because they are cleaning out your cell to take you on the trail to the jail cell without bail. Without bail. And are you getting ready? Yeah, if I have to, I told my wife, she's packing up a few things, and I left a certain money I buried for her to go back to.

You buried? You better watch the IRS, probably watching this show. That's alright, I buried a lot of money that I make. taxes. I make a little money like if I make $1,500 on speaking engagement, I give the government that 30%.

Then I take what's left of mine. I don't put it in the banks because banks might go broke or they might get robbed. I just take my money and I hide it here and hide it there and tell her where the hideouts are. Well, you're not too worried.

Now, Bill Russell, whom you know, of course, who coaches the Boston Celtics here, I said to him two years ago, I said, it's a shame that this boy, who's such an attractive boy and such a fine guy and a good fighter, may wind up pro, like Joe Lewis. And he said, well, that just shows that you don't understand. And he said, you just don't understand that that's why we admire him so, is it because he's ready to give up everything for his religion?

Yeah, I have one. and go around and do this. And they don't equate you with Joe Louis at all.

These people you're talking about, they spent money on white women. They set up bars, and they went playing pool and golf for $1,000 a hole. And they were known to make millions and millions when there wasn't no high taxes, and they were not hindered by white America. They were allowed to see.

The white America has completely closed all the doors on me. I'm not allowed to work in America, out of America. I was stopped right in my prime just when I started making money. So you can't compare me with nobody like Joe Lewis or nobody.

I don't think we can compare you with anybody. Yes, and tomorrow I can go back to get the money. If I would only deny my faith, if I would only join up against my religion, I could easily go back to making millions.

So I can always say that I turned this down. I didn't lose it. I turned it down. And I go out still with my head high. You've always had your head high, Muhammad.

Yes, I think, and I'm not what they call Uncle Tom. And money, the flesh and the blood of my freedom, the flesh and the blood and the freedom of my people comes before money. And this is why black people are nowhere today. The white man, such as you are saying now, they're always talking about money.

You're broke. Are you losing money? They threaten our people with money. You won't eat. How are you going to live?

Well, this is why we are nowhere today. Because every time a black man get in a position where all the babies are following him, where all the youth is following him, then he's yours. They're all looking when you're moving around, aren't they?

Yeah, he's, who's looking? Everybody's looking when you're there. They like to see you come in, the babies and everybody.

Oh, yeah, so I feel proud. I can tell him he's the greatest. I can tell him to be somebody.

I can tell him to fear not. What are you losing? Look what I did.

Now I can preach. This all helps what I'm standing for. And I'm just happy.

Everything I'm doing, I like. People see me and say, why are you not tired? Oh, looking great.

You're so happy. Where are your bodyguards? You don't have no bodyguards?

I said, I haven't done nothing. Well, it's great to have you with us, Muhammad Ali, Price Fighting Champion, minister to his people now, Muhammad Ali. Thank you. And I want Joe Frazier as soon as you get him. Okay, Joe Frazier for the title.

Transcript for:Muhammad Ali: Fighter, Minister, and Advocate

Transcript for:
Muhammad Ali: Fighter, Minister, and Advocate