Transcript for:
Navigating Entrepreneurship in India

You are a goon, you want to beat us up tomorrow. Take your marker, mark your QR and mark it on your own. We had no choice, we had no money.

We had to run, not taking a salary, because there was no money. I sit and audit my year once every year, quite like a CA. The world runs on money. I don't work for changing the country, changing the world or society. How much is your salary?

I am their double and it hasn't changed in the last 8 years. The electricity doesn't come for 8 hours. So, four to five hours of idle time in a day. I have said to myself, we are not capable of running in the mountains.

This guy is smoking dope. What do you see in an entrepreneur before investing money? I see hunger.

Do you feel hungry in me? No. You don't feel hungry? Forget what he said.

Hi everyone, I am Vishan and this is the best and the biggest Limitless with Vishan podcast that I have done so far. With me, I have people that have... I've always looked up to and learned so much from people who need no introduction.

We have Ashneer with us. We have Ashish Mohapatra of business. We have Sarthak whose deals I've watched a lot for the last two to three years.

And we have Sanjeev Chandani sir, the OG of the whole Indian startup ecosystem. And today, the perspective of this podcast is for a 20 year old who wants to start a business in India. What is it that you would need to know? Everything from the idea. to the later stages of building a company.

So that's what we'll be talking about. Let's get started. I want to first talk about the idea. And I want to ask from all of you people, that in India, what do you think is the right approach to find an idea? And what do you think works in 2024?

So you wouldn't have to start with us, Neetu. Yeah, I mean, ideas come at different stages. I mean, I came a little late. I came after doing some work.

I mean, I... I was working with Al Vipinder in Grofers. And before that, I had done a lot of payments. So I understood shoplifting and I understood payments.

And eventually it evolved into an idea that UPA and lending on UPA can be a big thing. But I don't come from a business family. And I somehow feel that the Indian education system doesn't prepare you for business. So some people get ideas in college.

I didn't have that type of thing. after working for 12 years and worked in other startups. And I still think that's probably the best way. I think more and more founders come out of other startups rather than just sprouting anywhere. Sometimes I feel that people of my age, they would rather want to start a company.

They say that they don't want to work under someone. So what do you think about that? What is the right thing to do for a 22-year-old like me? Can I just jump on that I will make a company, or I will make a unicorn, or...

Think about working under someone. Kisi ke under kaam nahi karna, thoda utopian concept hai. Tengi, walao ghoom phir ki, kisi na kisi ke toh under kaam kari rahi ho. You know, say some. Aaj kal meko lagta hai thoda fad hai.

Ki haraik kisi ko founder banna hai. LinkedIn profile meh likhne meh acha lagta hai. Kuch nahi likhstana hai say, founder of something likhna hai is better.

So aaj kal thodi youngsters just are doing it because it's the cool thing to do. And very soon people realize if you're not doing it for the right reason, then it's going to get stuck. So I'm not so much driven by the fad and I feel that there should be a deep calling if you want to do it.

Because if the timing is right, then it's okay, it can be done in 3-4 years. But that's an exception, that's not the norm. Normally it will take 15-20 years.

So if you're doing it for the fashion, it will go out of fashion and then you'll realize that I didn't want to do it. So I think youngsters need to be cognizant. Ashish, what do you think about finding an idea which works in India?

I have seen three ways. One, Ashish told me, you saw an opportunity. You know a little about it.

So jump into it. I was the same. I saw something. I worked a little in it.

But there are two other ways. First, one way is... People say that I am very troubled. I think that pain point will be for everyone. And that's why I want to solve it for the world.

It's tricky that it may be that you got pain. But the rest of them didn't get so much pain. And the market is not very small. So I saw that this second method, which is generally done by 20 year olds. Because they don't have as much experience as I did.

I think they were both likely 30 plus. I was 35 almost. Say, where did I start?

You were 36? 36, right? I was 35, he was 36. So he had experience, he had done a lot of work. So for a 20-something, I think the biggest risk is that he... Those who extrapolate from their problems and say that this business can be made, it is unlikely to be made.

So it is important to have a little experience. It is important to work a little below someone to borrow from a snooze point. Because when you will do a company, you will work a lot below.

You are a servant to many. You are not the master of many. So that is the second way. The third way is that you have done a lot of analysis. I was a consultant.

Many of my friends at that time said that I have mapped the entire white space. and then you see what the competition is, where there was less competition, you jumped there. Now the problem with this is, the market is big, there is no other problem, but the problem with this is that your passion doesn't come out there.

You can get bored. Or tomorrow you get a bigger market, then you can leave it early, then you can get a perceiving. People do this a lot.

First they start something, try for two months, then something else starts drying. They do it in the second or third one. Assume there are three ways.

First is, you saw it with experience. As Ashneer said, you saw an opportunity somewhere. Second, you started with trouble.

In that, people leave you quickly. You see that the market is not going. Many 20-somethings. What happens in the third? You jump.

The market is big, but you are not enjoying it. You think, what am I different? I don't have that experience.

So the market came backwards. So people leave in that too. So I think the right way is that you have a little passion for it. So you have shown a little bit that it is true. it has been put to work.

You have a slight idea of how money can be made in this. You have a slight idea of what you can do differently. In my opinion, it sounds like a compromise, but that's maybe the likely best possible way to start off a business.

And an idea germinating from that kind of exercise. Sarthak, how do you map out the trends? because what I have I saw the bloom manager report which was about in this valley report and it was talking about how India is also true for some segment of the Indian audience of the Indian consumer.

So how do you think about it and how do you like spot trends and what is it that people would actually pay for. So I think from a trends perspective if we think about business for 20 years old First of all, I will tell them at their scale when they don't really have capital to invest in something, to trade something. There are a lot of services that I think young people know nowadays, which they can sell to businesses very easily.

I mean, media content has increased in the last 3-4 years, but I think there are a lot of no-code tools nowadays, that you have to fix your HR system in business, that how is attendance, sales staff goes out, their attendance becomes their own. There are a lot of tools, but business owners... possibly because of their some mental block that we don't understand tech or this software is not for us. They don't explore many times. So I think if someone uses no-code tools and makes such small products for business owners, they can sell a service or a small tech product.

Apart from that, if you think I tell someone the easiest business to enter, if you want to enter business and have a little capital, then you start with trading. Now in trading, the arbitrage opportunity that you have to find that here you are getting something cheap and somewhere else you can sell it expensive I feel nowadays you get so much data on Amazon and there are so many websites like meetglimpse.com where you will get to know across different social media websites around the world and you can filter by geography and category in fashion, in healthcare, in fitness, in beauty which products are going viral in which part of the US So, TikTok, because it's not in India, so a lot of people don't know what's trending on TikTok. And most of those products, someone is bringing them from China and selling them there in the marketplace.

I mean, rosemary oil was such a thing that was so trending last year in TikTok US that it doesn't hurt your hair. People in India also have that problem. But many people have used rosemary oil...

But you and I have another problem, right? Absolutely. Oil didn't use rosemary oil. So I think there are a lot of reports, there are a lot of opportunities. As we go deeper, I just went to Africa to do two consulting projects.

I thought Africa is such a big city where you can earn a lot of money by just adding existing ideas of India. There are a lot of opportunities. You won't believe it, if you launch an e-commerce product in Africa, customer acquisition costs in rupee terms, for example, One of our clients sells laptops there. And it's a simple trade, laptops from Lenovo, HP, Dell.

Customer acquisition cost, to bring a lead. It costs Rs. 500. It costs Rs. 500 and you are able to sell a whole laptop. Why? Because Amazon has not penetrated there and made a logistics infrastructure.

Because they have not made a logistics infrastructure, then what is low there? So many small and medium businesses are not leveraging to place ads on the internet to be able to attract customers. If you look at the data, the world's largest business in Africa is The search for education in Google is done by Africans. Why?

Because you see there, education is not beyond a point. I mean, even schooling is not done by so many people. So, they have to do some business. So, they keep looking for how to do business. If so much is being searched, if someone launches business courses for African market, how much money can be made?

I remember an institute called NIItc. Maybe it was called Institute. if I'm not mistaken, and Aptek, I believe one of them have literally gone and made a killing in Africa because upskilling opportunity which people have to learn from computers. There is no college to teach. But, of course, we can talk about different areas and trade and manufacturing and what not.

But, sir, your thoughts. Sir, see, I think the best ideas come out of your immediate context your experience your education what you have seen around you and very often the best ideas are based on some insight a customer insight a market insight something so i want to just talk about four or five ideas that i actually experienced so i was finishing from business school uh this is 1989 right and um i was not taking part in placement because I already got a job prior. So I was asked to be a concierge, which means escort the HR managers around and get the candidates, the applicants, student applicants in for interviews on time and so on and so forth. So I had a ringside view of the placement process. And on day one of placement, I observed that there was intense competition between the companies.

There was too much competition to get the good companies. And I had seen that. But I saw for the first time the view from the other side, how much competition there was among companies to get the best students, right? You know, the phrase war for talent had not been coined then, but I saw it. And from there, we got our first product idea that if somebody were to do a salary survey of what companies are paying fresh MBAs on the IM campuses, right?

At the right price, that survey will sell. Because companies compete to such an extent that this is useful information. I have to decide my salary and give it accordingly. And that was our first product. And it was highly successful.

Highly successful means a few lakhs a year in terms of revenue. In those days, it was decent money. It's a 93% margin product. We got our money in advance.

We just sold by direct mail. And that was our first product. It was based...

on the insight I got by observing companies compete on IIM Ahmedabad campus on day one of placement in 1989. Second product, my former colleague and business partner, he had interned with his uncle, he was a lawyer, trademark lawyer, in his summer in college. And to register a trademark, you have to apply to the trademark registry. Okay. It's a government of India body.

Yeah. The problem is that, the problem was that the trademark registry would take five years to say yes or no to your trademark application. Is it still the case? It's been a while since I think. As things are getting better.

Things are getting better. My coupon is still doing the same thing. The trademark of the market.

Okay. So it took five years to say yes or no. Right? Now, if you want to launch a brand, if you want to launch next year, you have to pay after 5 years right and you can't wait that long now one of the principal reasons that a trademark application is rejected is because there is an identical or similar trademark being applied for by somebody else or registered by somebody else before you first come first serve right so assume you applied today launched tomorrow 4 years later you are told to be sorry your application is rejected otherwise don't give it to me that's a huge risk huge expense Now my former partner had experienced this and witnessed this in his uncle's firm when he was a summer intern. And he said, listen I have an idea.

If we were to document and put on a computer database all registered and pending trademarks, which we will get from the trademark registry library, we can sell searches. Tell us your name, we will tell you if there is an application or registry. and you can assess your chances of rejection you can you can have a better and more intelligent uh you know brand launch so i said sounds like a good idea so he went to bombay trademark history library he hired 10 students from elephant's land college made them cut class gave them registers and simply the pharmaceutical that it was a cr i want you to transcribe it on these registers he came back to delhi with two signatures we dumped them on a database and we began to sell searches We sent letters to all pharma companies and said, we were pricing it Rs. 350 a search report in one week, Rs. 1000 a search report in 24 hours. It sold.

Again, he had the insight. He bossed, this is an unsolved problem. Okay, this is a pain point. Company spent crores of rupees promoting a trademark or a brand name. And if after five years they have to change it, that money is wasted.

It's a huge pain. Now this is such a niche service, I would never have thought of it, right? I'm willing to bet nobody in the studio would have thought of it. But it was an idea because he experienced it.

So experience say you get an insight. Where did the idea of Naukri come from? In my last job, I used to observe that all my colleagues, this is in a company called HMM, now it's called GlaxoSmithKline, a company made Horlicks, Beryl Cream Boost, I was in the marketing team.

Right? Horlicks, Braille Cream Boost, you know, those kind of brands. My father has worked at G's.

Really? Yeah. Okay, we'll discuss it offline. What's your father's name? Pankaj Sharma.

Okay, okay. He was in sales? No, no, he was in the pharmaceutical training and department.

Okay, so they're a separate company. This is a consumer company, that's a pharma company. So now, I observed that every time the office copy of Business India would come in, everybody would read it from the back.

Because in those days, there were 35 to 40 pages of appointment ads in the back. And these are people from good business schools, in a good company, in a good job. They're not looking for a job.

They're still looking. They're still looking for a job. So insight.

Jobs are a high interest category of information. Whether or not you're looking for a job. You look at a job.

So the idea of nocary came from this insight. So, 7 years later, when I saw the internet for the first time, I said, let's just get newspapers and magazines from around the country, which carry appointment ads, put the appointment ads on the net, see what happens. And that's how we launched No, based on that insight.

Zawarto Vipinder Goyal, where did the idea come from? He was working in Bain Consulting, in Gurgaon, and office had a cafeteria, which would not serve food, you could get your own food and eat it. No got food from home. The admin team had put a file folder of roughly 80 restaurants'menu cards.

And he said it was a huge pain to stand in line, to access a file folder, to take two minutes, then call up, then come back after 45 minutes when the order came, then pay, then eat. This one weekend I came in and I scanned all those menu cards and put them on my personal page on the office at Dranet. says within three days the Itc infra guy came to me and said man what have you done why is 97% of internal traffic going to your page.

Benny dropped. Mark had given a signal that aggregation of menu cards is about value. Just as I had learned 10 years earlier 15 years earlier that aggregation of jobs is about value. Vipinder understood this. Vipinder and Pankaj went on weekends to restaurants around Delhi picking up menu cards.

When they had 800 they launched foodie bit. Traffic began to come almost instantly. It was the only site with all the menu cards. And they understood, if you put a menu card, traffic will come.

People are interested in menu cards. Insight, based on personal experience. Yashir Daya, Odyssey Bazaar.

Okay. He had worked in a company that did comparison shopping insurance in Europe. Right. He had worked there. And he had seen it work.

And he had the insight. that there is huge variation in insurance prices for the same policy, for the same insurance. Because different companies price risk differently.

He knew it. I didn't know it. Others didn't know it.

He came to me and he said, I'm willing to bet that you are paying 60% higher for your car insurance than you need to. And I said, don't be daft. It's not possible. You know, I bought a... standard car from a authorized dealer he sold me a public sector company policy what are you talking about i have not got cheated different companies prices same is differently show me a policy i took it out and sure enough the lowest quote was 40 percent lower than mine he had that insight that insight led to a insurance comparison engine Now when you do this, traffic will come.

Traffic will come, you will be able to sell to some people an insurance policy. And that's how PolicyBazaar was launched. Naukri market cap today, over 80,000 crores.

Zomato market cap today, over 1,60,000 crores. PolicyBazaar market cap, I haven't seen it yet, but it will be 50,000 crores. All of these three businesses began with a simple insight.

So the idea came from an insight, right? Yeah. Okay. And of course, good opportunities have various other characteristics.

The unity now is right, margins are right, which IB is being made, which defensible D is there, which moat is there, all those things. But the starting point is an insight and the best ideas are around you. You've got to recognize them.

There were 14 of us in that open hall at HMM. We all saw everybody read Business Index and back. But I got insight.

So, seek an insight. Maybe there's a business idea there. Maybe.

Sir, if you had 50 lakhs today... What was the insight? He understood, the retailer needs credit. But how can I give him credit at the same time, make sure the money is collected by me?

The key was, he was in charge of his money receipts. And therefore, he could deduct the installment at source. That reduced the risk in the business.

I tell everyone, I was putting CCTV on my neck. QR is CCTV on my neck. And you put some money in the drawer, one of the money fell in the lower drawer, which is the loan collection. So because money was going through me. So I know that lending is simple.

The one who controls the money is the owner. See, lending money is easy. Collecting is very hard. Correct.

So here, insight on how to collect. How did you compete? All the other...

When I started, the competition was huge. Incidentally, I started this business in mid-2018. Paytm, at that time, was worth $3.5 million. It was valued at $16 million. Now, I'm going out and telling everyone, Look, UPI has come.

UPI will grow. and every shop will have a QR code of UPI and if we get visibility, how much business is there in every shop and we can lend that was my starting pitch Sanjeev was one of the earliest guys same pitch, nothing different, he made the same pitch there was no such thing that we will see what to do tomorrow but competition was huge because the ATM was better but what I realized is that the one who has grown up, he has his own problems and I legacy danda banake baitha hai. Ab main agar kisi ke saaday 3 billion dollar uthaake baitha hoon aur main usko bola hai ki mera business kya hai ji har payment pe main 2% kamaunga.

It is impossible for you to accept ki ye 2% nahi hone wala hai. Jigra ji, ye na apko jaake Maas Hassan ko bolne ki liya main ne paisa to ye baat pe uthaaya tha but ab main na overnight flip kar raha hoon. Main karunga kuch hor.

So his problem was that. So ATM was the biggest. And he was in denial.

that UPI can't be done, the only way to do is to load money in Paytm, in prepaid instrument and use it on my network and because he was in denial, on the consumer side, he built the business on phone and Google on the merchant side, I built the business and all of us were building business against huge competition in fact I keep on explaining to people that my competition was so big that after a while you forget about it, right, so you understand what is UPI? WhatsApp was supposed to get into it. WhatsApp is meta. Meta is among the top 5 companies in the world by cash flow and market cap. Google Pay was Google.

Unlimited cash flow. Right. Okay.

And who else was there? Phone pay was Walmart. Unlimited cash flow again.

ATM at one point of time was Alibaba. Again unlimited. So you can never beat them.

So when someone is too big, then it's like the sky. You can't see it. So I became blind to it. I said, how big is it that I can't explain competition to anyone. I know this will be done.

If it doesn't work, it won't work. We'll die. But it's very simple.

It'll be clear in 6 months. And I built it against that. So sometimes you can build things against huge competition as well.

There's also local hooliganism. When you have a cable business, the cable guy won't win over the one who has the most money. In cable business, he used to win over the biggest hooligan who used to cut the 200 stars.

So you have to understand this business required you to go shop by shop, put a QR. It was about saving. 2% on the payments for him. And then eventually quickly moving to saying ki, achha tik hai sab, ab koi bhi charge nahi kar raha, but maa aapko lending kar raha hoon.

Then it became, achha sab lending kar raha hai, maa aapka paisa leke, aapko 12% biyaaj bhi doonga. So it was a lot of things, back to back, 6 month ke interval me apko karne padhi, to make sure you survive. And you need that paranoia ki, jaldi banana hai, aur koi kha jayega panna merko.

But E. Kashni's thesis hai mera, and Luckily, this is a biased panel, but I'll put you all in for your thoughts. I think that if you enter any industry in India, whether it's finance, education, or healthcare, if you're making a consumer product through tech, then your competition is not any other player. It's actually the government because the government at some point will think that this has to be a public infrastructure. What happened, say, for example, with consumer payments, they felt UPI is a...

Consumer infrastructure that the government must build. If you look at health, they want all the data to be on the government's database. That's why Aadhaar is coming.

If it's a platform which is collecting data of the consumers. So I think purely from a risk return perspective, if we look at China too, like they said that no one can start a private education business because they can control the narrative, what they are teaching people. So government must have a stake in all education businesses. If that is the case or where India is going in a good way, that you are competing with the government, the government is so good. Do you think the money is actually only in B2B products?

So either whatever you want to solve, you do it in B2B. Or if you want to do it as a consumer, then it will be a distribution business in the end. I mean, what type of customer distribution do you have?

You sell them different products and earn margin on it. But I could be completely wrong. But in all the cases, I look at it with a little lens. Let me go and see.

But that's not That's not government It's not because of the government I agree I agree to that My point is the following That You are But his point His point is That the government Introduced the ONDC But look They didn't send money On top of the ONDC But look I said biased panel Because you also Financed in B2B You're also into B2B finance I'm not B2B You're also catering It's B2B size It's a B2B product Somehow I feel In consumer products The CAC is so high And the spend is so high And then in the end If the government comes in They've just eaten your cake away and it's gone. No, no, one sec. What's that? You've made a platform.

A risk anyways exists. You'll have to sell something on top of it and enable a transaction which likely the government won't do. Government won't give you food delivery.

If you go full stack in jobs, then government won't give you the guarantee that I'll hire you. I'll be able to give you ads for all jobs. I'll be able to give you suppliers for all jobs.

I'll get everyone. Platform government will make it. But the transaction government won't be able to make it. Because the government, generally, you see in the world, they have always stayed away from becoming a brand on their own.

Whenever they have got into some kind of a product delivery or a service delivery, they have typically failed. Platform, they have succeeded. India has succeeded more so.

So, I think that just making a platform won't do anything. If you want to overtake or overcome that risk, then you will have to think ahead and put a transaction layer. This is a very classic jump.

I was also making it, so what was our USP? I know how much the shopkeeper is doing and the money is being earned. People used to say that the government introduced something in between. You will get the complete data Yes That banking account aggregator Account aggregator So some investors used to tell me Account aggregator is here It will happen now Sir said Account aggregator is here Who will take the risk Bro You don't have to recall on anyone I got to know How many I have found out from QR You have found out from account aggregator How much is it Someone has to do the transaction You have to take risk You have to take risk on the platform There will be no risk You won't have to take this So There is nothing to make a platform.

On top of that, you have to sell the product and risk. Look at our case. We made a B2B platform, your business.

Government's same, a very big platform, spent a lot of money and they did a gem. But look, what happens in B2B, the money goes to the lender. It goes on a receivable term. Whereas gem is a platform, but the seller wants to sell it in advance.

So the platform didn't scale. That's right. Someone has to build a transaction layer. Government will likely stay away from... Transaction layer even because of risk or because of service complexity or because of the fact that you have to build a whole new different system for transactions.

It's a whole new different ballgame. You can't make money by just making a platform. Basically, banks in India are sitting on risk-free business. Everything, no matter how much you look around, it's all about boom.

There's business too. What are you telling it? Okay, your collateral, your plant is also mine.

Okay, RV is also mine. And where is the business people? you bought land in black its value escalated in today's date you kept that collateral you got loan in white that is the business banks are in who is doing any unsecured lending of any scale among any banks any it is a very regulated business where you have to keep some collateral to get money financing is the business of bank risk taking is not there risk taking is done by NBFCs Or the new age lenders like us who are saying that okay, this flow is coming, right? I will put my dam in the middle of the flow and generate electricity.

They don't care, they are living in a different world. So I think banks are in a very different business as far as unsecured lending and taking risk is concerned. Tell me one thing, I work in a government bank or I work in a private bank. Who is incentivized to take risk? I worked in a bank for 9 years.

I worked in a coton for 7 years and did Amex for 2.5 years. The growth that will be possible is the one that will follow the protocol and has patience. The one that has impatience for growth will be out of the system. In banking. Because you know nothing is there.

This formula is given by RBI. It has to work according to this. I'll be a little aggressive, I'll put some more branches, I'll get some more money, RBI will stop it anyway. Money will be generated more and I'll do some more lending. But there is no more innovation.

I'll tell you a classic thing. Earlier, your savings rate was fixed. The savings rate of the bank, RBI is deciding what will happen. They freed it.

Kotak started giving 6%. I... They started adding, 6 is 50% more than 4%.

That's how they grew their liability base and became a big bank. Till date, your current account has 0% interest. Tell me, isn't there a bigger anomaly in the entire banking segment?

Money is money. The one who kept the savings can also withdraw it tomorrow. There is no time limit in it.

The one who kept the current account can also withdraw it tomorrow. You are telling the current account holder that RBIG says 0%. Why does this happen?

No one has any response. I have a legacy. You have a legacy.

0% is going on. Because their name is coming from there. So the bank people are trying to rob the business people. They are trying to make money for that.

Right. The moment, and we also as a country are appreciating it that how much is the market cap of our banks. I think the market cap of our banks should be less.

If NIM is less, then the businessmen will get the money. But the problem is, it is easy to innovate because there are so many opportunities, but it is very difficult to make it big. In India, it happens that in the financial sector, especially when you become a little big, then you will face some impediment.

Some big guy will get into it, some regulations will come into it, etc. So it is relatively easier to start off and create something of size, but it is very difficult to make it big. In my opinion, it's difficult. Most people have faced this issue.

Like we say in NBFC, it's difficult to make it above 2000 crores. If it goes above 2000 crores, then 5000 crores is the next barrier. 12,000 crore.

I mean, these are very acceptable market norms. So size, something of huge size is tough. Right.

And likely tougher than other sectors. Right. A question which people were asking me to ask you all, was that if you are in 2024, knowing what you know now, what business would you start if you were my age? If you had some starting capital, let's say 50 lakhs or something you have with you, then what would you start?

Ashneer, the assumption is that we will die. I'll tell you, you're 20 years old, I'm 40 years old, I can't do it. You're talking nonsense. No, man, see, here's the thing.

If I had this idea, I'd do it myself. Why would I tell you? You know, my mother was admitted to hospital a few years back.

So she was there in hospital for 2, 3, 4 days. So I used to go there morning, stay there till night. sister would take over at night so there was a food court in the hospital so I would often go and sit in the food court and just observe now that food court had multiple brands some of the best brands right you know but and that microphone used to come on order so you could sit in one place and I could note down the order what was ordered so First of all, despite all the biggest brands being there, one brand stood out. Roughly about 30, there were some 8-10 brands, roughly 30-40% of the orders were for Haldiram. And you say that desi food is sold, the taste is still desi, right?

Roughly one third of the orders for Haldiram were Chole Bharat. This is Delhi, right? I mean, for me, it was inside. If you take this example and look at the data in food, the highest number of late night orders come to Delhi and the highest number of breakfast orders come to Bangalore.

So you actually know that in Bangalore, there are a lot of people who are going from different cities, younger population, who have to go to office in the morning, and they have ordered dosa or idli, there is a culture there. And in Delhi, there are a lot of people who are awake till late night and ordering. Hopefully, breakfast is either done in the office or if you are staying at home, breakfast is available. So I think this is a big one.

If you see where cakes are ordered the most, then they are actually ordered in Bangalore. Biryani, of course, we all know, is in India. But I feel that whenever you think of an idea, what will I do? This is purely how I think about businesses. I have one.

to build a distribution of a consumer which I can relate to the most and which relates to me the most. Because I feel that nowadays if you see any trading opportunity, it doesn't last more than a year or two because big players can bring working capital in trade and remove you and cut your margin. Or sometimes trade is volatile because of government reasons or whatever. I'm talking about trade in commodities, for example.

So trade is a short-lived two-year type. opportunity aati hai. Manufacturing agar aap kuch setup karte ho, toh I think aapka idea hota hai ki 3-4 saal me mera payback aajai, meri investment regawer hojai and hopefully agle 8 se 10 saal me ye bohot badi koi tech disruption na aaye toh main uske baad apna pura super profit kamaa lo. Matlab 30% per annum ke hesaap se aap sochogay ke at least return meri investment pe toh aani chahiye. Us time period me.

Aur brand jo hai na, brand me actually It takes a lot of time. I mean, if it's an actual loyalty brand, it takes 15-20 years. I feel it's very tough to make.

So I feel if someone is starting early, starting at 20 years, they should think I have a very long timeline to build a brand with people who I relate to. So if you kind of decide to marry to a consumer segment, build a distribution with them and constantly keep bringing products that solve their problem. I think that's where your business can also keep evolving. Because what a lot of people I do, I think do is, and maybe this used to happen 15 years ago in India, who studied engineering, he's so married to his skill that I'm an engineer. Or CA is so married to his skill that I know tax audit.

That he either takes a job in finance or starts practice and then he puts on blinkers. So I think that's a mindset which may require some change. Because your experience... Your story is so interesting.

Like, in your teenage time, you started... You have such businesses which were all shit. Yes, I know that.

But do tell the audience what you were watching. I mean, they were very profitable. It was trading in commodity.

Right. So, they were very profitable. It was very good cash flow.

You were basically selling ability in that. But I understood that business is a big deal. To sustain it for 2 years, I say, If you...

young, you can't sustain it. Because someone will find out that there is a margin in the race, he will bring it and invest his money and you will be a man. So I think that first you should have experience.

At the age of 20, your experience is limited. It is limited to what you've seen as a student, which is likely nothing because of our straight-jacketed education careers. Or what you've seen with your parents, who more often than not will likely be cynics in what they are doing.

So they will tell you that Sanjeev ji started a job there. I had not even heard of it. My dad would not, well, I think he will be 10 years senior to Sanjeev ji.

He never spoke about the industrial world. He used to say that Tata Nirmala, at that time Ambani was not that big. He used to say that we are good. So the reality is you are limited to experiences that you are very limited. Likely very cynical.

So first give yourself time to see the world. Work with a few people. Work together. Take 5-7 years.

Fail 2-3 times, use your brain, discuss with people, it takes time. And in that, you will be 20-25 years old or 28 years old. Likely, the biggest barrier in your life, marriage, will also happen. What is the biggest barrier? It is a barrier which can be 20x or it can be 0.2x as well.

How? It can be a great force for the team. Take the example of Ashneer, Madhuri works with him. If you take my example, Ruchi works with me as well. Aditi.

Aditi works with you as well again very biased panels so it can be a real force multiplier in each of our cases but generally it happens that when you get married the common man says that you are married so at least that risk is gone and you know which path you are going on so I would say wait out till you are late 20 you will see the world on you with your own eyes you will have more varied experiences then you will know whether you can make a brand or not like I feel that I cannot make a brand in today's day for the sake of the scene Simple reason which I had studied in MBA was that brand is the one which can charge premium. I had been taught in the first course. It was consumer behavior. COB.

I was asked what is the name of the brand which can charge premium for its service. I think premium is not given at all. So why should I make it? Right.

So I'm not made that way. So what you are, what you get exposed to, what makes sense to you, where you think you can build teams and all that is important. And that I think you get. started on that journey when you're out of college when you're out of engineering and most of us are out of engineering when we are in the early 20s 20s to 22s or B.Com whatever there's another reason if you look in the US you left home at 16 okay now you come on your parents will be well off they'll pay your fees but otherwise whatever you have to pay whatever you have to spend you're doing day jobs you're working in McDonald's your mother's age is fast you do How does the world work?

We think that the US people are naive. It's the other way around. US kids are more experienced. The generation that is emerging in India today is a bubble.

It's a complete bubble. You're living in a society whose gate is closed. You don't know how the world works outside it. You're sitting in a car and the driver is taking you. Your school is a bubble.

There's a club. The same type of people have made clubs. So that tomorrow, if you have a love marriage, it's the same.

You are in strata. That's why the school was made a club. How did you get out of it?

Your college... I dropped out. But you are in the 9th or 8th grade to prepare for college. Where have you seen the world? When you are coming out in 20 years, you know nothing.

You are in 4-5 bubbles. After 6-7 years, you will see failures. You will be cheated. You will get hurt. Then your bubble will explode and you will come down to earth.

So I think the educated 20 year olds in India they are very far away from how the country runs or how the economy runs. So he is absolutely right. You will have to get more experience. I think I have a similar yet different experience. I remember when after ISB I was not in the placement of an undergrad.

Na, SB mein betha. Toh main na... There are 3-4 deans in B-school.

So, I used to be behind everyone that I have to do business, I have to start my own business, etc. etc. I used to sit in the placement or not. So, till the end of the year, I mean, at least I had talked to everyone 5-6 times.

So, they were a little worried till the end. They said, if you really want to do something, then don't sit in the placement. Because, what will happen is, your MBA will end now.

And ISB is slightly different in that context from an IIM because that the average age is 26-27 when you graduate. So he said, in 2 years, your parents will get you married. After that, you won't be able to take that bet because you'll get married recently. You'll feel like earning a little more. So actually, your age to take that bet will come in 35 years.

Then your risk-taking appetite, whether it be or not, depending on the money you've made that lifestyle, his idea was that we've seen a lot of people's risk-taking appetite. Either it increases a lot because you have saved so much or it completely ends. So if you want to try, then do it now.

But will this context remain for IIM? I would think maybe not because as per statistics, it says 70% of the people who go to an IIM are right out of undergrad. ISB has a minimum 5 years of work ex. And is that right? And I think so.

I mean, I can't speak for IIM, but the both of you 100% can. But a close friend of mine, one of my... closest friends who went to an IM at the same time that I went to ISB. He went with 5 years of work X at say a McKinsey knowledge center. I went with 5 years of work X.

And he said, I don't see my peer learning in IM because 70% of people are still talking about Counter-Strike and Dota. So I don't see that peer learning expected out of work experience. So I think somewhere they're correct.

when they say at least he had 5-6 years of experience. But if you keep waiting for maybe 10-12 years of experience, that's also pushing it a little too much because times are changing. And, you know, as consulting firms prefer to hire people who are younger, that they come from a clean slate and they're not set in their ways. It's almost like saying, arrange marriage me bahut zyada deri kar doge na toh, dimaag pak jayega. But you, Chita, said earlier, right?

Sanjeev, I'll tell you. See, there are success stories of all sorts and there are failure stories of all sorts also. So, Ritesh Agarwal didn't even go to college, started. Vipinder Goyal worked just two years, didn't do an MBA, right? I worked five years plus an MBA, right?

And then began. I think for each of us, you'll know when is the right time to start. Ashish could not have started earlier than he did because he did not believe the right time. When he felt the right time, he started. When he felt the right time, he started.

You don't know, this is the right time. The right time will be plus minus two years, but, you know, it will be roughly in the right zone. But, I tell you, to be successful in building an organization, running it, running teams, hiring people, all that, you should have done some sort of rigorous apprenticeship somewhere.

Now, apprenticeship could be in sales, it could be in software programming, it could be in consulting, it could be whatever. But you have worked hard yesterday Getting exposed to the real world Right Right Now you can get exposed to the real world By doing hard work in your own enterprise also But then you are maybe taking a risk Where if you fail You fail on your own money Then you may not have a second chance Right There are a lot of unknown and unknown When you are working on your own And if you haven't worked in a situation Where you work with people First of all, before becoming a boss leader, learn to become a follower. If you're not being a good follower, I don't see how you can be a good leader.

You agree with that? Yes, sir. I don't understand the context.

If you work in an organization, you name your team, right? So that's when you learn to work. You're not a leader yet.

You don't learn to be a leader when you're a team leader and you're in that situation. So first learn to become a follower. Then keep a path of leadership.

So in general, yes, it is useful to have work experience. But there are people who succeeded without it also. It's not like that. Sometimes naivety is needed. To have the confidence to acknowledge that you are not successful.

On a different note, when I was in VC, data was coded. I don't know how good it is, but it seems logical. If you look at success, which I think then was defined as 10x net worth of what it would have been versus what you would have straightjacketed, the 20-somethings create much larger success with lower probability. versus 30 somethings Where the probability is relatively higher. Right.

But the success outcome is not that big. And it was that twin data. It was a mega study.

It was 30-35 years old. So, yeah. I think that's one thing that I continuously think about. Your ability to win with the odds being in your favor.

Right. Very interesting. I wanted to ask.

this question that uh let's say i was i was talking to nathan kamat last year uh and i asked him that you know if you had to like start zero again today would you be able to do it bootstrapped and he said that i would have to raise funding to be able to grow it it would not be possible today bootstrapped what do you think about this idea of like growing bootstrapped or with a with a investor or if someone has to get an investor then what should be like their process for it If it's getting bootstrapped, then you have to do it. You'll find out that I'll do this bootstrap or I'll have to take this skill. You don't know, it becomes a default situation.

If you're starting a business today, if you're getting a scale in it, even if you don't want to take money, the person who's going to invest will come. Because the data is all out. Your competition set is out. Someone will come standing up and say, look, you'll make this, it'll take you 5 years, you take the money, the same outcome will happen in 2 years. So there's always going to be that push on you, especially if the business is doing good.

So I think the bootstrap is mostly there, where no investor understands that there's no room for it. Okay, it won't happen. This guy doesn't have a background. This guy, like Nitin and Nikhil are not your classic backgrounds VC would like to back, no?

But then, saying that what are they doing, I don't know. It's a bit of a trick. Why should I...

I will put my job on the table. So they became successful and were able to remain bootstrap. Because no one was willing to look at them at some point of time.

I also believe this. Of course, they are great people and great businesses. I don't think they had no option. At some level, yes. Or there was a lack of option.

I would say there was not no option. There was lack of option. And then so much time passed. Then people think, it's been 3 years. We didn't die.

It's going on. Leave it. Why do you want to pick it up? Right. Then you have, you know, developed that confidence also, saying, so I think it's the first 12 months, 6 months which matters.

If you run a business for 12-24 months, bootstrap is done, you would not be attracted to capital. I feel like that. But, yeah, the sad part is that capital is also available. And people have shops, their business is to invest capital. So they won't come to sell.

we will mention that too so it's about what you want to you know where you end up in that so you started Crickpay and I was with Aseem over coffee and he was talking about how because of the regulation Crickpay is not what you wanted it to be so like how did you think about it then what will you do if Crickpay is not growing now then he gave us the thing that Veera is very simple I have a lot to say about my life Then you talk when he's grown up. When he was small, we didn't go to podcasts, nor did we call you. We used to sit quietly and make business. So for business, I'm very clear.

Keep quiet. When he grows up or something happens, then you talk. So I don't talk about trick pay. I don't talk even about zero pay that much. Because right now, I don't think anything has happened.

It's like me putting my brand first and the business is much behind. I would rather let the business talk for itself at the right point of time. So, I think business is made peacefully.

It cannot be built against public expectations. You should not build in public. This is the common advice to a lot of people. You should not build in public. I don't think so.

Okay. I mean, I feel that if I am making it publicly in India, then it will never be made. I mean, so many things were done that were not publicly possible.

Like, I used to do it when I was a kid What did you do? I used to beat up the people from PTM Haha Bro Let me tell you At what base level did you do it? Take a marker If you don't get your QR, mark it on it Cut it You're a smarty-pants If you put a pen on someone, they won't scan it Then you'll say, PTM doesn't work Next week, go and put your name on it You know, this is... When you're building a business, right, you do whatever it takes.

What stage is this going on? This is a very early stage. When you're in paranoia, you do all these things, right?

And somehow in my mind, there was an analogy of cable. That I am in the cable business, I have to cut the wire. The biggest b***h won the business.

That was my thing. So we used to do this. And it's not like we used to do it. Of course, they also used to do this to us.

Right? But you do these things. But I can't, you know. Yeah, thank God. We're not competing with these guys.

No, no, no. No, no. No, no.

But the business is made peacefully. When it is made once. Okay, then it's fine for you. Ashish, you've been in the VC business and you've seen both sides of it.

So what do you think of it? Bootstrapping? Yes.

You see, according to me, bootstrapping is like a fantasy. It's good if you do it. It looks very good from the outside. At least in Wonderland.

Later, later. It looks very good from the outside. Listen to Nikhil and Nitin now. It seems like it's God's gift.

Even if there are no options. But the problem with fantasy is that, in general, you can't live it. I think it's so difficult in the beginning.

Look, we bootstrapped for three years, and for seven years before that, we did other stuff. There was no choice. We didn't have money. You didn't have an option. We had to run by breaking you in and not taking a salary.

Because there was no money. So we don't have a choice. We bootstrapped. It's very hard to say, boss, I'm getting a VC.

But I refused. I want to bootstrap. and that is slightly harder.

I've not seen too much of that. Although, see, we had bootstrapped Naukri for two and a half years when we began to get inbound interest and shoo-shoo, I got scared when those conversations happened. I had never heard of venture capital and didn't know what it was and we began to get calls saying that we want to invest in your company. I was 10 years old when I started.

In my entire 10 years, nobody ever called me up to give me money. I remember in 1992, I had to struggle for six months to get an OD limit unsecured. What is OD limit?

OD limit. Okay. CC OD.

Working capital limit. Unsecured was 30,000 rupees. It took me six months from a nationalized bank because it was unsecured.

They had no collateral. Right. It was really hard. And so I was clear that I should take an advance from the customer, then work, make a margin, take out the expenses.

Right. And that's how we were. We were a small business.

So when people, I know I went for a couple of meetings also. Who is this person? There were a few women.

So there were these NRIs, mid-20s. I was mid-30s. They were 10 years younger than me. And they were flying into India for a week or two and then, you know, prospecting for, you know, some dot-com bubble. I didn't know it.

But USMV dot-com bubble. It was in 98, 99. And, and, uh, You know, we want to, but he tells me, now he's not been to our office, he's not seen how we work. He's meeting me in Machan, which is the coffee shop of Taj Mahal, and over breakfast, and he's paying the bill.

I'm not going to pay the bill, I had no money. Your house was broke. And he's saying, we want to invest $2 million for 25% of your company. And I almost fell on my chair.

$2 million was $7. It was 40 rupees. So I'm trying to do the math.

I can't comprehend the number. I have never made a deal on the number. And it's too many dollars. It looks like it's 8 crores. Now, how much is 8 crores, boss?

I don't know. I can't comprehend it. So I'm trying to get real. And I'm, you know, when I'm talking, I'm saying, Okay, so how many pizzas can I buy in Nirmala's in 8 crores? You know, and I couldn't do the math.

You know, I could not do the math. Okay, and I said, you know, but you gotta be cool, you know, you can't show it. You know, he said, okay, I'll think about it.

Right. Then I asked him, you know, but what will you do with 8 crores? I can't figure out.

We were breaking even. I was not taking a salary. Right.

This is annual. I said, what do you do with the money? So he said, oh, very simple.

You will spend it on advertising. That will build brand, which is a barrier to entry. And then six months from now, We will raise twice the money at $4,000 valuation. And one year from now, we'll list you on NASDAQ.

I didn't know what NASDAQ was. Okay, I had a vague notion that it's something to do with the stock market, something in the US, but you know, I don't know what it is, right? You know, New York Stock Exchange I've heard of, but NASDAQ I've never heard of, right? So, I said, list us on NASDAQ, boss. You know, the office is Jamnapar.

Okay, uh, the electricity doesn't come for 8 hours. When it comes, it's 108 volts, right? We don't have a, we have a UPS, but not enough battery backup. 20-foot backup is a lot. So, We stay idle for 4-5 hours a day.

We are working in dial-up mode, the stable connection only comes at 3 am. That's when we update the site. And I do it myself because nobody else stays up till 3 am.

I have said to myself, we are not going to the mountains to list the people. This guy is smoking dope. Then I said, now one thing I caught on was that this is advertising.

I had worked 3 years in advertising, 2 years in consumer marketing. So I knew advertising. So I said, you know, if you spend this money on advertising, you'll never get it back.

Because there's no way sales will go up so much. I know. I work in advertising and marketing. I know. So he says, no, no, no.

You don't understand. You know, I said, we're making a profit right now. You start making a loss.

I'm breaking the record. My biggest bad one was breaking even. So we make a loss. This is the problem with you Indian entrepreneurs. You want to make a profit.

You have a vision problem. So I've seen, yeah, this guy is smoking dope. So I got really scared.

You know, if he got into the company, I didn't know what he'd do. So we refused and said, I don't want VC. We continued to bootstrap. Six months later. You refused that $2 million?

Six months later, JobsAid launched, having raised $7 million. Seed. Seed.

And they launched with an ad campaign. on the India TV ad campaign on the India Pakistan cricket season in Sharjah which is the biggest thing in 1999-2000 you know in that era and that's when I died of fright and I said you know we can't be a 50 lakh rupee a company making a 5 lakh rupee profit we will have to raise money we don't have to make a loss for 2-3 years grow to size and scale and then so life will get complicated but we'll have to I had no desire to build a big company No ambition. I said, it's a small company, make a profit. Live a simple and complicated life. I don't want to be a large company.

But we were nudged into it by competition, so we went back in the market. This time we went to different Vc. I spoke to a banker friend and I said, give me some names and numbers. So he gave me four names and contact numbers. I reached out to all of them.

I didn't hire a banker. I reached out to all of them. At bubble time, we had four conversations about three term sheets.

And we did not go with the highest valuation. So we got two Indian Vc who said yes and one international VC. The fourth international VC declined us.

And the international VC gave us a higher valuation, but we went with I venture because... When the term sheet came, I died of fright because I had all these clauses I'd never heard of. They say tag along, drag along. Now, I had been there for 10 years and they said drag along. You mean you can sell my company?

I worked hard for 10 years. And I tried to negotiate those clauses. They would not be negotiated.

They were not negotiable. So I said, go to the CBC who understands that in India... A contract is for clear communication of expectations. It is not actually enforced in court. For a VC, it is actually enforced.

I don't know where to go. So when I went to I Venture, they spoke our language. They said take your time, we understand India is going to be a long haul.

We're not in a hurry. No NASDAQ listing next year, nothing. So we went to the site, lower valuation, but we felt there was greater compatibility with the investor.

I think we had a good call. And also, if I had said yes six months earlier, we would have spent the money foolishly. We raised the money in April 2008. The market melted down within two weeks.

So we got the money in the bank. At the right time. At a high valuation, but didn't have time to spend it foolishly because market corrected.

He said, boss, stare up the business plan. Best timing. We were very lucky.

Yeah. But one thing what I observed, whenever a company... But if JobsAid had not launched, we would not have raised venture capital. What happened to JobsAid? Yeah.

So we had 10 years of being proven of trying to break even. So we didn't spend our money. The prevailing wisdom in the market at that time before the meltdown was raise money, build brand, build scale, raise more money, get your what is called a typical VC cycle or life cycle of business.

Fortunately, we had got a DC VC who had in the past invested in DC businesses with cash flow, profit, growth, you know, 20-30% growth, it's okay, you know, it's okay. It's okay. You will get there.

They were not sold on this dot-com dream. Although they had done a lot of dot-com in their space, they were not this internet-investor. They had done many sectors earlier. A lot of companies failed to raise their next round once the meltdown happened.

We also failed. We tried. We failed to raise the next round. But we got the profit, and we survived. JobsAid was acquired by Monster in 2004. So you did one round?

Not because we didn't want the next round. When you got one round, it was... But factually, one round. One round, then IPO. We did a secondary six months before the IPO to get in Kleiner Perkins and Sherpa.

But that was a secondary. That was not a primary. So the company only did one round. This will be a rarity in these days. Both his experience as well as the path.

Yeah. If you want to take money today, take it. Very simply put.

Were you also about to get an IPO? Yes, in the whole year. I mean, it's in the process.

No, no. You see, if you have any sort of business experience, and if you see the complicated term sheets in SHI and IA, and you have any sort of thing, I have to honor this. These are my words. Boss, you be very careful who you raise money. You're making a very onerous commitment.

And you've got to understand that. At least I understood it. If I sign something, I have to honor it. Sir, what I'm observing in a lot of companies which raise a lot of funding is that even if the company doesn't come out with a profit or doesn't grow as well, the founder comes out with their own net worth.

So they build their worth with the secondary sale of shares that happen. What do you think about that? Is that...

Right So you and I Are on opposite sides Of the fence on this one No no So Look I have a simple fund The world runs on money Okay Let's be first Be clear Okay At least I am very clear I don't work for Changing the country Changing the world Or for society Okay If there is not a pot of gold At the end of The tunnel I am not entering that tunnel Very clear Right Um And so are most of the founders, I think. Like, okay, say something politically correct. At the heart of it, if there's no money, who's doing it? Why are they doing it? I mean, they also know.

Very good. Now, my point is, did you put a gun on your head and said, give me money? I've done secondary. I've done...

All the secondaries were done where the investor wanted to get in. And I was saying that there's no room in the primary. Okay.

My last round. I mean, my last round race. I thought I would race for $200 million in a series.

I ended up getting term sheets of $625 million. And I'm saying, I'm telling you, term sheets signed in my mailbox. It's not like he'll put it in.

He said it too. $625 million signed term sheets in my mailbox, which I had to countersign. Okay.

And I was like saying, why should I dilute so much? I was doing 250, I will do 350 Existing investors are fighting Between themselves That I want more New investor is saying Why did you talk to us If you wanted to take existing values So eventually to make space They are saying Sell whatever is being sold Okay Boss There were people on my cap table Who put 5 lakh rupees I was giving 5 crore exit No greed No we don't want to sell So we will sell when you will sell Finally we will sell ICO Okay, this kind of things happen. I am the biggest shareholder on the cap table. If I have not made money in 3 and a half years. If money is coming from the front, I will make it.

So, my view is that at the end of the day, you are not taking salaries. You are not taking money out of the company. So, when a liquidity event comes, you have to take it.

Because you are not doing business. You are busy for 24 hours. Your family is also bearing the cost.

Where is the upside for them? Okay. And I always had this thought that I will sell mine, I will sell Eshop Holders'too, I will sell early angels'too.

I raised around Rs. 4.45 crore collectively from angels. 4.45 crore for Bharat Be. By the time I came out of the company, I had already given an exit of Rs. 140 crore.

I'm not, I'm talking to the angels. And And still, there was a lot of money of Rs. 180 crore in it. Of those Rs. 4.45 crore. So, my view is that the money he is investing, he is investing for that.

Incidentally, let me tell you. My existing investors in the last round, when I was raising Rs. 625 crore. My first two investors, Sequoia and Bnext. I said, sell it. Bro, so how much did you come up with?

How much did I go for in the first round? Rs. 5 million dollars pre-money. Okay. Second round was 20 million dollars pre-money. This, or 25 million dollars pre-money.

The two investors who came on this, think, someone has taken half a billion in goods, someone's stake in me was more than the fund size. Okay. I told them, sell it.

It's 625, I'll get you one. What does it matter to me? You also sell it.

They said, no, no, no, we'll sell it right now. It's our business. We're in there for the long.

So my view is, look, everyone is here to make money. If you feel apologetic about making money, you're not in the right business. I have absolute no apologies for doing any secondary. Okay. Uh, you're looking at my lifestyle today.

I also have a problem in India. It's money, don't show it. So why do I have money?

Okay. Bro, I've earned by selling shares. I've given capital gain on that. After that, if I get LV's... Shirt paen ki gung nahi hai 1 lakh rupiah ki Main paen ki gung hua na Why is there a judgment on Yeh kharch kahan kar raha hai Society as in Huh Society as in The Indian society Nahi Kyuki Kyuki At a middle class level Aapki expectation Manage karenge hai Ki bhai dekh Yahaan pe na Koi bada nahi banta hai To tu abhi se Koda dabke chal Taaki tu life me Disappointed ho Aur vo Ingrane ho gie Middle class me to Majorly ingrained hai Theek hai You go to US right Jeff Bezos is buying yachts worth 400-500 billion dollars is anyone saying to him that look you are such a big man people look up to you why are you roaming naked in your yacht with your third wife no one is saying to him there is a judgment in India so India is a country where other than judges everyone passes judgment okay I don't give a damn this is a bit long I have a slightly different point of view okay see you oh Some of the early conversations that we had, it's really about what you agree with your investors, right?

So some of the early conversations that we had with I Venture, they said, first thing, we are betting our money, you are betting your life. So if we shake hands on that, then we'll give you the money, which basically means you will not do anything else. It basically means that if the company goes down, you go down with it, that's what will make the company succeed.

You've got to burn your bridges, burn your boats. Complete incentive and interest alignment. If you want to make complete success, that's how you will succeed. Right.

Right? And therefore, no secondaries. Without a secondaries. Without our permission. Without our permission.

Okay. So, the permission of the? Of ICS.

ICS. Okay. And that permission will not be given. We're telling you right now upfront.

Only then you sign. If you agree with this. Right. The second thing they said is, you can't get rich till we get rich.

And we would only get rich when we sell your shares at a very high price. Hopefully after IPO. Which basically means that we decide your salary. You will get survival plus a little bit more. You can't get rich on salary.

How much was it for you in this time? One lakh a month. Okay.

And I shook hands on that. So. And. they honored their word I honored my word so it's not as if it was not discussed it was discussed prior to investment and we agree on it and the principles they were applying were the alignment of interest convergence of interest the asymmetry is that they have a portfolio of investments I don't have a portfolio of life I have only one life and they said you have to live with that asymmetry only then take a money if you are not prepared to live with that asymmetry don't take a money So we took hands on that and we followed that.

Actually, it worked very well in our case, both for the company and for I and for me and for the entire management team. And ideally, we'd like to follow that principle even now when we invest. But the environment has changed.

The investment market is a lot more competitive. There's much money available. And if there are people clamoring to get into a company, they say, I want more, I want more, I want to do secondary. Very few secondaries are actually in our portfolio.

I've been led by the founder. They've been led by the incoming investor. They say, wow, I want more, I want more. So sometimes we are forced to depart from this principle against a better judgment.

But we live in a competitive market. Yeah. I'll give you another perspective.

I also did a little bit of secondary and also on fitness of salary. So I think this is a very logical decision. How much is your salary?

I don't have their dues. I have to get Rs. 2 lakhs. Okay.

So, and it hasn't changed in the last 8 years. We just completed 8 years. So I think this is my money. My asset. If I take it out, what will I do?

I don't consume. Just not made like that. Very Indian that way.

Indian made it that way. Indian made it that way. Indian made it that way. So, it's not that I don't want to.

If I want to, then I find out a reason not to do it. So, the point is that I won't consume. I won't take money. I'll put it in a fixed deposit.

I'll put it in a fixed income instrument. I'll invest in an engine. I'll put it in a share market.

I'll do mutual funds. Whatever. So when I feel that it has happened that more money cannot be made from here and in terms of, you know, how much it can grow, I feel the need to actually do a second deal because I don't have consumption needs.

Now, hitherto, it happens that in the founder's journey, you will always feel like this because the founder is an eternal optimist. He will always feel that I invest money on myself or on my management team, who are like me, so I will make more money. Right?

It is. In my opinion, when that optimism actually starts subsiding, is when it's a logical decision to take money. In my opinion, this is something that you have to balance with what Ashneer is saying, that, you know, I have money, I will take it.

Why would it subside? It would subside. You get to know that this money will grow 100% or...

Let me give you an example. If you had asked me two years ago, I would have said, I used to tell investors, you come, in the next 3-4 years, you will get 40% IRR, and it will not go anywhere. The company's growth is that much, the multiple value compresses, you will get this much. Now we have reached this size, where I know, that the compounding of money, is only 20-25%. Right.

It's a function of scale. It's a function of, you know, you may have it at glass ceiling. You may have to do something very different from what you are doing today, to compound it at the previous rates, and all that. In that case, I start thinking about, that let's go, that a little money should be taken from here and put in another asset class.

That's how I operate. And I think a lot of people who are from the Indian middle class who do not have a consumption need and are not bent to a wow as it is almost like a Bheeshma Pratigya. That's my following with the way money has been taught to us. It's all about how much money do you have in the bank or on the balance sheet.

To me, it doesn't matter. If you can't spend, you don't have money. You can say that you have 100 crores in the bank The bank is the happiest person Saying that he has given me 6 million in 6 months Okay And you can be boasting about it right I am slightly more consumerist Consumption driven But I will tell you the word The bank is the one who thinks The person who put you in the bank The person who thinks that Money is a way of keeping score My score keeps increasing Yes score man I am increasing my score and I am happy I feel that You have 100 crore rupees in the bank And your parents have lived a very modest life Your children have to do whatever they want to do in their life What does that 100 crore mean if you are not enjoying it?

No Somewhere, someone has to enjoy it Either your parents enjoy it, your kids enjoy it, or you enjoy it If I'm leaving the money there For a shareholder of a bank to enjoy a higher name and higher market cap So three different velocities. But I would add something different here by a little bit of data. I think again, this is a biased panel because the people you are watching have some investment banking, VC experience.

They know what return VC wants. So raising money for them, because they knew what to offer to the other side. Can this market be so big?

Is this business fundable? What will I have to do for that? And at what point will the secondary be taken out, that was the knowledge.

But if you look at the global statistics, many companies have done it. Sir, it's possible that your company has also done it. If you ask people why they started a business, people have reasons. Because I wanted to be my own boss. Because I wanted to do something that I enjoyed.

Or I wanted to earn extra money. They think of it as a side hustle. And literally, I wanted to make money, that's why I started a business. That's such a minuscule, single-digit percentage. And this is not just one survey, this is across surveys.

Because the... drive for people to start a business is always something more than money but whether a business is fundable or not by a VC is a pure finance science of knowing itna percent unko milega toh ye fundable business hai. Tabhi usme jo aap kya kya tiyo na, main kya tiyo ek teen circles hotay.

Matlab there is independence, speed and scale aur aap do choose kar sakte ho. Toh agar aap bolte ho ke mereko speed aur scale chahiye. you will have to take money from VC. But what you give up on is independence because these terms, people sign them after seeing the money not realizing how draconian those terms are. If people don't understand in real life and they think this will be executed, then no one will take money.

Actually, the term is not draconian. It's just that as a founder who never raised money, a bit of an amateur, I thought they were draconian. in hindsight they were not.

They were actually reasonable terms by reasonable people. I think they're fair to the investors because the investor live in an information asymmetry of how your business is running. And they're reasonably flexible when the time comes.

Yeah. Which is what, you know, I did not understand. Why all the freight and shitty, but I'll tell you one thing. Something that our investors told us afterwards. We didn't tell you this earlier, but understand one thing.

Once the money goes in, We are totally dependent on you. Of course. Right? There is no recourse because this is unsecured.

There's not even debt. It's even less secure than debt. Okay?

And we can't run your company. So, if we disagree, we have very little recourse. So, these terms largely exist as defensive terms in the event that we meet a dishonest entrepreneur. They are almost never meant to be enforced.

But they didn't tell me this until afterwards. But Vc also want false comfort, right? That we didn't get it written. No, so it's not entirely false comfort. See, the point is that the VC is investing somebody else's money.

And that too with LP money. Right? Now, supposing something goes bad and the fund does not do well. They don't want a situation where fingers are pointed and say you did not.

do adequate diligence, you signed a loose agreement, you did not have enough safeguards. Whether or not the safeguards can be enforced, quote, another story. But a VC will lose his or her reputation if they're accused of being careless with the LP's money.

And I think the other angle is that the way the founder reacts to these terms when he sees them on paper, it generally is a very good pointer to how he will behave in the future when there are disagreements. Because fundamentally, it comes with a disagreement only you need. why should I give my company a drag?

Why should I believe in anti-dilution? Or why should I believe in anything which I feel on the face of it is of no use to me and to someone else? I mean, in that term, I'm not getting any benefit. I think the way the gentlemanly conduct of actually, you know, negotiating it or coming to a moral midway or something like that is also a good pointer.

We were taught that if a person believes in everything, then he won't give you anything in the future. He's just signing the paper and will put everything in the court. And if the person is fighting over everything, then this is not going to be a deal. Yeah, I've seen a very different world which you guys have fortunately not seen, right? Which is the conflict with investors, right?

Yeah, we haven't seen that. Yeah, we haven't seen that. And touch wood, you should never see it. And it's not something I romanticize at all.

It's sad. But having seen it, what happened exactly? Forget that, that's not relevant. But the learning I have, especially with respect to terms of what you're signing. Somewhere, you know, these documents have become over-lawyered.

The person who is taking the call to invest, the GP, the head of fund, he takes a commercial call. That I think this person is right, he is from my market. And somewhere, this call with terms is left on a GC, a lawyer. And the... The problem is with these over-lawed, over-engineered documents Ki what dispute should be resolved through conversation You have to understand everything is commercial.

You cannot get into enforcing a document till you have fundamentally the other person has closed the door on your face. I have reached your house, he has closed the door on my face. Now nothing can happen. Now I have to go to court. Now that has become the first option.

Saying, we have a very good document. The lawyer is also saying, look, I will get you out of court. Then this whole machinery of litigation lawyers and everyone comes in. Everyone wants to make money. And then you realize, wait.

You were ready to put money on me till yesterday. You were ready to buy my shares from me. Right? And we could have resolved this dispute by biting each other.

But because you have got this agreement and you've got these lawyers and it's become so much over-engineered, that conversation has gone out of the window. That is to me the sad part which still was there back in the Vc. No, it's still there. Uncle, the situation is there today.

If you ask me, in my journey I've never fought with a VC. But there are disagreements. Dying one doesn't.

Yeah, of course. When to take IPR. When to do round race. How much secondary should be there.

If secondary is happening, then how much is there for every investor. Disagreements happen. Then how do you navigate? Navigate, see, finally, I also know that if I fight with him, then my money will be lost.

Company will be lost. He also knows that if he fights with me, then there are recourse. What Sanjeev said is true.

If you go to courts, you won't get anything. A person becomes famous only in courts. This is an incriminating incident. Because as he rightly said, judges don't pass the judgment. So both of them know.

So someone has to take a first step. My first biggest thing is that first take a step. That okay, I am ready to compromise.

I am ready to take the first step. I will compromise on my position. Why don't you come and sit with me? I understand your point of view. I think somebody has to take that first step.

As long as you are... In a moral position that, I don't want a moral background, I'm ready to give, then things get handled. In my case, if there's a disagreement, then I say, I'm wrong, I understand, you're right, you have documents, you have a lot of onerous terms, but I know I want this, I'm ready to give, come sit down.

My always remains this. See, in all Vc, I'm trying to find the Lala. Who's the Lala in VC? Who's the GP? Yeah, who's the GP?

I mean, who's going to act means general partner decision maker who manages the fund LP is the one who puts money but I get somewhere I get more comfort in a fund which is led by an individual who's acts like a Lala saying that I also put money on something I have the most carry and I am here as a founder I am working I am a founder I have a problem I will find a solution The problem has become the larger Vc have become so-called professionally managed outlets. There's no Lala. There's no Lala, right? So, now he's saying, hey, there's a fight. Now it's the lawyer's job.

Why keep him? Why give him so much trouble? He gets a carry. What does a lawyer do? Come on, now you do it.

Whereas it was saying, what does a lawyer have to do? He keeps him to make documents, not to fight the fights. So, you know, somewhere I feel there has to be a maturity I am sure it will come right you know every industry will go through a few fights big out of proportion fights before that maturity dawns on people that boss end of the day everything is a problem and everything has to be dissolved right you can't be end up looking for a judgment and fighting endlessly with people but you just told us about the US that the US culture is more capitalistic and they they are okay with that they welcome it but what we saw with Elon Musk which he promised Tesla's board that he will do 50-500 billion, 10x, so if he does that, I should get 50 billion. So he didn't get it because he said it's too much for someone and the court passed that judgment as well.

And then that lawyer comes and says that his fees are 6 billion dollars, if you've seen the news. And they are okay paying the lawyer that amount, but not paid to Elon for the growth that he had for the company. Which is fine, I don't care. I don't know what's there Is it the state or the investor I don't know From what I understand Of that situation is That the state of Delaware Doesn't allow that kind of compensation And therefore a judgment was passed Saying that this compensation agreement Was not right I don't think it's the investors Backing out or anything of that sort And then he took it to Texas Or wherever he had to take it I want to talk to one of you About hiring Because this is a problem which I have faced a lot. In the last 3 years, I have tried to hire 100-200 editors at my agency.

And whenever I try to hire an editor, I take them. But there is something or the other because of which they end up leaving. Or something happens, there's a disagreement, they want something which I'm not able to give to them and they end up backing away.

So how does someone think about hiring? How do you manage egos of people? Because I see that happen a lot.

Like I have 25 people in my company, I'm learning a lot to how to manage everyone. So how do you do that? My hiring pay is what I've understood very simply is.

Lot of people don't agree to this thought. It's hire fast, fire fast. Okay. What's happening these days is that you're investing your time in hiring.

You're going through multiple rounds. Okay. And the guy is at his best behavior. When a guy comes to pitch or comes to sell himself, the salesman in him is at its peak.

End of the day... whether he will work or not, that is known only by working. I mean, I have never got such a success rate where I say, yes, I have hired a person, so he will work or not.

Sometimes, you know, people are able to sell themselves very well. So my realization after all this is, what we do is, we take three months to identify the person. Then he says, I have a notice period of two months, so let's wait for two more months.

Then you have... invested six months into a role or to fill a role. Then when that person comes, then it becomes natural that the more time I put into bringing him in, the more time I give him in. So it becomes six to one year.

So you have put one year cost and your opportunity cost in that role. Then after one year, when you have to remove it, then you feel that after one year you are on judgment, so it is not working properly. I think the easier thing is to say that boss, I'll do a very limited I want a person next week The best guy I get You did a local optimum That I want a person in 10-15 days You get him in fast Judge him on his work faster How do you judge him?

You can see whether he's working or not It's very simple You give a responsibility You give a job to him You know Everyone knows who's working and who's not We also had people from Veli's office But it was because Yeah okay A little we let this team go but they knew that the person who hits the ball is the one who works so hire fast and fire fast and that's the way it should be and if you are firing the right people in the sense the wrong people you hired in fact and you are retaining and growing the right people then it becomes culture actually how do you do because when I came to your office I think two years ago exactly today or this week I mean I came to your office to interview you for the book that I was working on, Unicorn Secret. So when I came there, I noticed that you don't have a separate office space for yourself. You don't have a separate desk.

You were sitting with the people over there. Yes, yes. So how do you think about hiring? So in my case, I applied what I learned from life.

The first companies I worked for were ItcC, McKinsey, in fact, Matrix B. They used to take people who were like really young. Zero to three years experience. Ideally closer to zero.

Means they used to take freshers from campus. They used to say, if a person comes here without learning anything, then he will not have ego. If he does not have anything, then he will make his career here. And his loyalty to the organization will be very high.

ItcC is run by lifetime us. Even today. Right. So is the case with McKinsey.

So I thought this is the model. This is what I saw. I had not seen any other model. So we took this. We hired people zero to three years.

Mostly closer to zero. Now. For them, the advantage is that ego doesn't exist. Most of the people are ready to give it their all, particularly in the beginning of their careers. They are hungry, especially if you go to tier 2 campus and all that.

So that's the kind of pool you've got. Now how do you make that pool really work? Because the problem with that pool is that the time that they take to catch the ground running is generally longer than what a normally experienced guy will do. Okay? So how do you shorten that time?

So we thought that the environment like campus should be extended. So that's why no one has a room. In fact, no one has a designated place.

The first one who comes, he sits in the best place. The last one who comes, he sits next to the toilet. Everyone has an open setting.

There are only conference rooms. Meeting rooms and such. If someone travels, he doesn't stay in a hotel.

He stays in the house of the person who lives in that city. So it's a very campus extension kind of an experience. But it was not some innovation because the person used to live in the campus itself. Right. If he gets the same atmosphere in the future...

So that becomes a herd mentality, they get closer to each other, the work life becomes an extension of personal life and all that. So we kept it like this, and we saw that attrition is very low. And it also happens that if a good person is going, then another good person stops him and says, I am from your batch, I am from your campus, our campus name will be spoiled.

You know, I saw that at work with McKinsey. I, in fact, resigned from McKinsey thrice in my career. I left the third time out. Every time, you joined your college again.

No, I didn't go back. I put a paper and then someone came and said, you are going. We were so good.

We were so good on campus. Come on, leave it. Right. So. For me, attrition is a big cost, especially when you've invested in him for a while, right?

So that's why he created a campus atmosphere, extended it a little. If you remember, the most common board in the office is written A, B, C. Altruism, Brotherhood, Camaraderie. Practice this and all that. So that has worked well for us. I mean, clearly not similar to his philosophy.

I mean, we are very, very, I would say... tight when it comes to measuring and all that because that model is very different. Take people, nurture them, don't lose more expectations in the first year, target them in the second year, etc. So that has worked. Yeah.

Sarthak, you consult a lot of businesses, you notice, what do you think are the problems that businesses make with hiring? So I think the first thing is expectation management. Meaning, hiring is also a kind of sale.

You're selling how your workplace is better than any other place. But what people end up thinking is, ke paisa denge, agar main market se upar ka paisa denge, not everyone today will stick around for that. I mean, incentives for people have changed because with the newer generation, you know, Gen Z specifically, I think unke parents ne na ghar bana di hai. They're not favouring diamonds.

I mean, they're favouring experiences. Unko hai ke... If I have money left, I can buy a costume jewelry instead of gold.

I can go on a travel trip. So I think with that, with those incentives, you figure out money cannot buy their loyalty. What has to be bought is, there's definitely a huge market for people constantly feeling that I want to learn or I want a learning opportunity. So first thing is creating a learning opportunity. Opportunity should be there, then there should be a learning system.

Training means if you see, leaving big companies, How many companies do you have in the L&D department that are actually teaching you? So, in most companies, I have seen in our company too, I mean, previously the organization I was running, we were a team of 30 people. Right now, we are a team of 10 people. And literally beyond a point, if people don't think that I am learning something in this, then there should be an L&D department.

If you don't keep it in-house, then what we recommend to most people is, there is one Saturday, it could be a third Saturday of the month, where there is... peer learning for each department if there are possibly five avenues that everyone needs to be upskilled on and five people in that department they buy rotation pick one area which they need to learn that month and train their employees on and that is also part of their incentive structure so that is aimed to reflect on that area and the final incentive is that people should feel that socially I enjoy relating with this group which is why you will see as they say birds of a feather flock together in the end either your team will be of the lazy type or all of them will be of the hustler type and a lot of times it I think it kind of flows from the top it flows from from the personalities of the founders in a very very big way till the time at least your company is about 50 to 70 people It's a much bigger team where independent, you know, owners of respective departments can also define that culture. But I think best insight should come from you, sir. Look, we are in the hiring business. Okay, but having said that, we also have challenges while trying to hire.

It's not easy. So fundamentally, we don't let go of people easily, which basically means we don't say. except in case of integrity or some other misdemeanor.

We did not sack in 2009 in the global financial crisis. We did not sack in 2020 in the COVID lockdown, even though business had suffered. We had enough cash reserves.

We prefer to sacrifice profits before we sacrifice people because we know the business sector will turn, business will pass. And then if you've got people in tech, you'll be able to bounce back very nicely. Also, look, this company has been built by people. By our people. So when times are tough, we don't want to do the wrong thing.

It's a question of ethics, values. It cuts to our core. So we have never ever been through a restructuring where you say, okay, fine, let's get rid of 800 people, or 300 people, or 500 people. We don't do that. Having said that, what does happen is that when times are booming, when the market is booming, and there are lots and lots of startups, funded startups coming up, we get targeted for talent, right?

And our people get offers. When times are not good in the recession, right? Or no jobs are there, then people appreciate that, you know, we don't sack.

Kind of contrary to you, but if you want to run a long, stable business, we think that's what works for us. Right? And we are staying with that. What do you see in people?

What do you see which makes you sure that this person will stay and this person will grow the company and grow themselves as well? I think we believe a lot in deep reference checks. By talking to people who have known the person earlier.

Of course, there are parts of our company where attrition is high. For example, a call center is in-house. In a call center, 80% of the time, attrition is high.

That's the nature of that job, that industry. They get jobs elsewhere. Right.

Sales So, basically, in the first year or two in sales of a person joining, there's a high chance of attrition. Could be in the wrong job, may have thought sales or something, higher rate of pressures, right, just like Ashish. And, but if a person stays two years, then attrition in that population plummets, right.

And yeah, each Each part of the company will assess differently, you know, for different roles. So engineering tech is different, product is different, the investing piece is different, sales is different, customer service is different, back office is different, call center is different. Got it.

You are talking about sales, sir. What do you think is the right way to learn sales? On the job, boss, it's an apprenticeship. There's only X percent theory, 98% is execution. How does it work?

How do you say, when you talked about it, you said you're going to wow the person when I was talking to you. So how does it work? What do you think?

So initially, there'll be a little bit of orientation. Then you tag. You follow your immediate boss, right?

And when you join the company, you go on sales calls, you write proposals, you correspond with clients, you learn on the job. After six, nine months, you're on your own. But as a...

entrepreneur how does that work you say how did you get the first few clients what was the sales process for that in the beginning we were selling my direct mail only then we figured that okay beyond three lakhs a month you can't do direct mails or sales so why don't we hire three four sales people see what happens so this is in in end of 2000 okay uh we hired four sales people and we discovered that that within six months you The salesperson is making Rs. 50,000 a month. The expense is Rs. 22,000. The profit is Rs. 28,000. So we had found what we call a repeatable profitable unit. Keep on adding salespeople.

And this Rs. 50,000 hit it not every month. So we, within two years, had 240 salespeople across 11 cities. And we had grown 35x in those two, three years. And we were breaking even at a much higher scale.

So for us, a salesperson is a source of profit. Ashneer, how do you think about sales? How should I learn sales for someone like me? I think people have made a lot of sales that they should not be in the middle.

They should be a little bit acting, a little bit passionate, or they should show this to the other person. end of the day it's all about honesty about what you're doing and most of the sales I've ever done whether it is hiring people or you know pitching it to a investor or to anyone right it's to be very very clear that yes they are doing this they have solved this they will solve this okay and and be true to your promise I think The best sales is when you're actually not doing a sale. It becomes second nature ki nahin yaar, main seedi baat hi karta hoon aur jo hai ma bata dunga.

Then you don't have to put the effort of doing the sale. Then you'll naturally aajayega. So I'm not too, padhni main kabhi seekhi nahi sales. Pahle investment banking mein clients toh unke saath bad bad ke, jo samajh aaya.

Later, when I went to Grofers, I understood what is fundamental. Fundamental is simple. You can spend half an hour or an hour with someone.

It can take up to 5 minutes. If you can come to him as soon as possible after 5 minutes. and you can show value to him.

You're a great salesperson. I think it's all about saying that I'm spending an hour, I'm spending five minutes. And therefore, I can save five minutes, multiply it, and sell to more people.

This is what I have understood. Maybe I'm wrong, right? But I like to go deep and straight and say that I'm here to sell this. This can benefit you.

You're buying from here. Okay. Or you're working here. Against that, you'll work here. This will benefit you.

This is a risk Right Okay And to be And it's normally worked For me So yeah I'm not your typical Vowing Kind of a salesman Who Wines and dines And does all that thing How do you negotiate? If you have to I'm very bad at negotiation Very bad Although it is My Fundamental weakness is My inability to negotiate I feel Somehow I feel That conflict There And I'm running away from that conflict somehow. That I have to negotiate. That you leave this, then I'll leave that.

Those conversations seem a bit conflict-type. So I've taken a very good path. Anything negotiation, I put my wife in front.

Meaning, I have to buy a house, I have to buy a car. I have to negotiate with someone. I put my wife in front. She's a baniya.

She comes from a business family. She's seen me since childhood. And the good thing I like about Banyas is they don't get offended.

In a dispute or in a conflict, they don't get offended. So I think she's a much better negotiator. I stay away from negotiations. I need to ask that to her. Ashish, how do you do it, like negotiating and selling?

So for me, a great sales process is very different from being a great sales guy. Sales process is the same as... Processize As much as you can That you have to read this data These things have to be said These things have to be done Price has to be communicated Company's USP has to be said Etc. As much as you can Simplify it So that Finally you Like Sanjeev was saying He had 240 sales guys We have a team of about 400 sales guys Across two companies Right So you'll have to manage A lot of sales people And the simpler it is The more processized it is The easier to follow But being a great sales guy In my opinion Is actually quite different from Ashneer sir, that's a conversation.

The more you respect the person, the more you can influence him, finally he will give you a marginally better deal. And that margin for him may be small, but for you is very, very big. And to understand that is important. That's why I think a little flair, a little general knowledge, a little study about it, playing what is happening in the room and all, that is important. That's the sales guy part.

On negotiation, I follow a simple tactic. I don't negotiate. If I see that the person is trying to negotiate, I slow him down. Because I know that finally... You just don't get into it at all.

If he is trying to give you a bargain, you just don't engage with it. You slow him down, you tire him out. I think that when the person is desperate, you will get a better deal. So the more you slow it, especially closer to when the deal is getting done.

the better is your chance to drive a better bucket. I've said that. Got it. But I enjoy it. Similar to Madhuri.

So, enjoy both sales and negotiation. What is it for you, Samit? No, I think for me, sales is a simple function.

I think what my MBA taught me, and I found to be true is, you can only improve what you can measure. So, whenever someone talks about what is the hack of sales, I say, first of all, let's measure it. And I think I personally have a...

I have... definitely over engineered it but I have an excel where I have multiple columns measuring every day several aspects of my life so I remember funnily enough when my parents were after me get married they said what do you what are you looking for in a girl and I told them it should be this and yeah what do you do in education that's that's irrelevant but I think when they started setting me up when when they started setting me up for dates and I started going and meeting people and even even organically when I was I realized what I would say I want I'm actually not really getting attracted to what I said I would want and what I'm getting attracted to on paper is not something I wanted. And I think the biggest understanding there is of that gap that what you say you don't necessarily act like that. So I thought okay let's let's first get data.

I wrote down some 10 metrics on how I would want to gauge a person. Every person I met I started marking them on that metric to actually identify it myself. And I think after a point, I realized that even an arranged marriage in India today is getting so much more difficult because it almost runs like a sales funnel. you get on a matrimonial app to create top of the funnel.

You're seeing thousands of thousands of profiles and you know just swiping through because of because of so much of paradox of choice. Uske baat kya hai, the girl has to like the boy, the boy has to like the girl. One side's parents has to like the other side, also vice versa.

Then friends ki wife bani chee hai, ambition chee hai. Itne filters ban jaye hain. Then I went around asking a lot of my friends who finally got married looking after 3-4 years and they all said ki, the average came out to be they met with 30. 38 people physically met with 38 people to finally find their match. So, and they 100% think that a great deal of time, more than 50% of the band just went into realizing what they wanted and what not.

And I think in a company, regardless of which business you are, the sooner you put that process in place, a CRM in place. Like for example, we always would first install the CRM. Put a persona not just of the customer. So there is a customer persona she wants to define. The other is a decision maker persona she.

Like Ashish mentioned, there are a lot of people in the decision maker persona. You will identify them. The salesperson will identify them. That they don't talk to them internationally.

They like gender and all that. Then you might as well send the same, the kind of salesperson who will be able to settle and generate that person. And I think those insights only come when you processize and productize the entire sales process.

And then optimize of where to find ways of selling a gap in Ukraine. Improve on it. I think that's just been my learning. I'll have a couple of questions.

Let's do this as a rapid fire round for all of you. The first one is, Ifnir, you've seen a lot of Shabtang's pitches. So what do you see in an entrepreneur before investing money? I see hunger.

Hunger is the most important. How do you measure that? You get to know by talking, by his conviction.

I think drive trumps everything else. Do you like Miriam Shukla? No. You don't like her? Look, she's on camera.

Okay. Ashish. Same question? Yeah. Energy.

I think the person who is not at the absolute and relative scale, the chance of that person is very low. And only energy... not only in itself, but also exudes that energy so that others can also pull in it and save something for them. Sarthak? To be honest, as a person, despite all my investment banking experience, knowing myself, my risk appetite is so low that I literally invest all my money in Nifty 50, if you think about it.

So even from an angel investing perspective, I have made bets. I've put in about 7-8 companies. And there it is, to be honest for me, I've thought of it as angel investing only.

that this money even if it gives me no return but i like the person i feel like i'm really liking his sincerity i really feel he can make something big or maybe he doesn't have access to certain things and if i can just give him something to help him get started and motivated to feel so i think i look at my angel investing journey from that point of view. Got it. Sir?

We look first at two things, then at 50, okay? But the first two things are, one, how good is the idea opportunity? Is it solving our problem?

Is the evidence a natural attraction? Does the customer want what, you know, these guys are trying to do? That's one. The second is, will this guy or girl do it or not?

Will he do it? Which includes book. It includes maybe five, six other things. That's a better way to put it.

And that's a judgment call. You know, passion, hunger, drive, staying power, people skills, strategic skills, technical skills, ability to attract talent, any indication of ethics, integrity, you know, all of that. Integrity is important.

It's a, I would say, it's a necessary condition, not a sufficient one. I don't want an honest fool. But you don't want a dishonest, very clever guy also.

Okay, the last question that I have for you, I think you will remember this, is if you were in my shoes, what would you ask, Ashish? What would you ask yourself? What would I ask yourself is, now what do you want to do next? Will you continue doing what you're doing or will you do something different?

And what is answered? I think for me, it's, I want to do this all my life. Lending and B2B.

Doing business, working with people. It doesn't look sexy, but I like it. Because I'm that score guy, right?

I think I sit and audit my year every year. Quite like a CA, to be honest. And that year audit is more an audit of an Ikigai framework of my ambitions. Is it giving me the kind of happiness I wanted to give? Is it generating enough money as I would want it to generate?

And do I see potential, future growth potential? Content creation? No, not content. The work that I do.

For example, we've got... three verticals right like there is investment banking and consulting there is education and there is content content is more like a talk of the funnel to to to do marketing and everything for the other two main businesses then so i think uh what are the new educational products we want to launch what are new things we want to do this year i think it's about exciting and what can we do in our business Like in March 2022, I was 20 years old. I made 15 lakhs that month.

Right? Which for me was a huge amount. Right? Last month I made 35 lakhs. So, I'm looking at it as a problem that I'm able to make this small money and it is not allowing me to go outside and be like a businessman.

What do you think of that, Rashneel? I mean, you're not earning 35 lakhs. It's the same. Well, that's a lot of money, yeah. You have all money?

And that's my... You should sit here and ask him. No, that is the... You don't allow me, right? So how old are you now?

22. 22? 22. So what were you earning when you were 22? I was earning zero. I was earning 1500 rupees a month. I was 35,000 a month.

I was 5,000 rupees a month. But the problem is that I... I can't think of a separate chart to make a business.

I just think about what to make in the next video. How to make it today? In that, you should think of this concept called productive paranoia.

I think Sequoia was asked, how have you been relevant for 30 years in the business when so many funds have come and gone? And they said, productive paranoia. You have to be paranoid every day that you can be disrupted or if you're dependent on, for example, for creators. I mean, there are broadly two channels that you're getting everything from. tomorrow the algorithm changes or their model changes and that is going to happen they're not going to keep giving you that kind of engagement because people are coming in with money to buy engagement and your engagement is going to go out i think the moment you are just aware of these things which come with experience of life you would know i need to fill in like much bigger shoes that i've bought for myself but i would say you're doing well keep doing what you're doing you're more of what you're doing forget what he said you have hunger in what you do yeah I think I've put it in so just stay with it what I do just stay at it okay sir sir Sanjeev sir what is it for you for me what people often ask what people often ask me and I don't have the answer is when do you plan to retire and I don't have an answer so right now I don't plan to retire you're forever hungry well I would say forever hungry but now there's a whole team yeah so you know I don't do it myself but I'm around Epic that was the podcast.

Thank you so much for taking all the time. Thank you. Thank you Thank you so much for watching this share it with your people with your friends and we'll see you the next one