e e e e e e e e ladies and gentlemen may have your attention please the program will begin in a few minutes please move to your seats and help us start on time as a reminder please set your electronic devices to silent but keep them at the ready so you can text or email your questions for our guest speakers to the address on the screen at askm TNA gmail.com the signal and cyber museum Society is on a mission to preserve the rich history and significant contributions of Americans who have and do serve at Fort Eisenhower in the signal regiment and the Army's cyber Corp now more than ever we must save these stories to educate the public train present-day soldiers and Inspire future Generations your support is vital to preserve this 160 year-old history and prepare Young Americans for service in the 21st century visit secure our story.orchestra on silent ladies and gentlemen we have a notebook with copious notes in the back that's been left here if you're missing it please come back to the right back right of the room ladies and Gentlemen please welcome to the stage Colonel Mike black US Air Force retired vice president of Defense ofia International all right good morning those that know me know that was a preparatory command and you have to respond accordingly so in the military when we don't get it right the first time we redo good morning good morning all right thank you it's great great to be here and welcome back I know you some of you had a chance to uh attend the session this morning by uh by General miles um a great uh perspective on on things with his uh endo uh experience um what I want to do just real quick is uh just introduce this uh this session this panel it's my pleasure to introduce the the moderator um for this uh it is uh sergeant major Jesse Potter uh US Army um he's the G3 sergeant major at at army cyber uh sergeant major Potter enlisted in 1994 and began his career as a chemical operations specialist and also worked in the uh electron IC uh Warfare before reclassifying uh into cyber operations in 2015 he has served as a brigade command sergeant major for the 780th uh Mi Brigade cyber and also the US Army cyber protection Brigade he's been the sergeant major for G3 and army cyber uh since March of this year um join me and welcoming sergeant major Potter and his uh fantastic panel here with the um representing the the n's uh the backbone of our our military and we we even have a Navy Chief up here Master Chief up here as well so sorry major thank you yeah you clap clap um so I'm actually going to go digital uh rather than my note cards so uh ladies and gentlemen distinguished guests fellow panelists uh Welcome to our discussion on empowering the enlisted Force for the challenges of Tomorrow Today We Gather to explore critical topics of gemo and cyber electromagnetic activities our esteemed senior leaders here today will share their perspectives drawing on their wealth of experience throughout this hourong panel we'll delve into the enlisted training development and operational excellence but our Focus extends beyond the present we're here to discuss the current and future battle space joint electronic warfare Spectrum operations and cyberspace electromagnetic activities are at the Forefront of our efforts as we navigate this complex landscape we will inform our partners and peers at the unclassified level again unclassified level fil streaming valuable insights and considerations um before we dive into our discussion on gemo and SEMA um I would like each one of the panel members to introduce yourself and share a little bit about your background and why it relates to this critical topic good morning everyone all right I'm Sergeant Major roua so I am a recent graduate of the Sergeant Major Academy class 74 still got that new sergeant major smell on me but previous to that I was the spectrum manager 25 Echo at the 101st Airborne Division and the 82nd Airborne Division I've been a spectrum manager for a little over about 12 years so I've had a good mix of spectrum manages State side and O conus So working with our partner nations in Germany and Korea all right so I'm Kevin F I'm currently the U Mi Battalion command sergeant major 75th range regiment I came in the Army as a 98 xray then being um to go into signals intelligence analyst with the Arabic background so uh really my how I got in ew uh for a long time was looked at it's kind of a it's kind of a Trader to the signant when I started doing electronic warfare in the 2004 and five time frame uh which as we as what we're doing this week is we're celebrating 10 years of of army cyber existing and again I just said I've been doing electronic warfare since 2005 so I was able to do a lot in pioneering and understanding how the Army gets back at conducting electronic warfare because that point in time Army had Dev vested and really relied on Air Force and and navy and the other services to provide their virsion electronic warfare so uh for the last 18 years I've really focused again in Pioneer ing capabilities uh but additionally then how we integrated all the way you know full spectrum operations it was big in electronic support to start with but uh definitely have to have a huge Focus electronic protection electronic attack so uh many years of experience and then now the best part of the job is leading and mentoring uh the future formations and how we integrate ew cyer and all these great capabilities for the maneuver elements morning uh Master Chief Ru Montano I uh uh been doing ew and cyber now for most of my career uh in uh 2006 I uh was part part of nsw Naval special Warfare doing uh tactical ew uh throughout throughout about 13 13 combat deployments I also qualified in 2007 as a an offensive onet operator and helped establish the first uh title 10 offensive cyber capability Within Naval special warfare that's kind of the background that I'm coming from hey I'm Joshua Gendron um Matt Damon once famously said if you can't spot the sucker in the room within your first five minutes then you're the sucker so I think uh that's the role that I'm fulfilling on this panel based off of what everyone just said all right so I gotta say we got a diverse group of uh senior non-commission officers and Petty officers here today um but before we dig into the meat of our discussion question um I want to Baseline the audience because we use a lot of terms sometimes and sometimes we fail even as senior non-commission officers to dig into our Doctrine and actually read what the doctrine says we actually are supposed to be doing so according to Joint Pub 312 gemo is the coordinated efforts of ew and Joint electromagnetic spectrum management operations to exploit attack protect and manage the electromagnetic environment unique to the Army and yes only the army so our our joint Service Partners Air Force Navy um and Marine Corps can't forget about them um don't use the term SEMA SEMA is an army term SEMA is an army concept FM 312 describes cyberspace electromagnetic activities SEMA is the process of planning integrating and syn synchronizing cyberspace operations and electromagnetic Warfare in support of unified land operations by integrating and synchronizing cyberspace operations NW friendly forces gain and information adantage Advantage across multiple domains and lines of operations so now that we've level set everybody with the actual terms about what we're going to talk today um my first question is going to be for the entire panel um this question as the Army shifts from coin to large scale combat operations focused on near-peer adversaries and are pacing threat what critical things in and through the electromagnetic spectrum do we as a force need to focus on and I'll start with SAR major Ula thank you SAR major so I believe this is starting major bull speaking we need to focus on two things the first being is how do we operate in a congested environment because we're going to operate in a joint environment and everybody's going to want to bring their toys to the table everyone is going to want to bring all their equipment but it is not possible for everybody to operate what they want to operate at the same time and just looking across the world seeing what's happening Ukraine Russia we cannot operate how we used to operate gone are the days where we had like the humongous tent complexes where you know the G6 had its own 10 and a half the commander had it 10 and a half it's a huge electronic signature that we're putting out and it only takes a near peer enemy seconds to detect that and you see the videos how Ukraine is giving Russia the business because you know they're easily protectable easily detectable so how do we operate in a contested environment secondly we have to protect our ability to use Spectrum so beginning of the Russia Ukraine war Ukraine was giving it to him not so much now because Russia has adapted they saw what Ukraine was doing they have fixed actions in place to do that so we in turn have to Pivot also to make sure that we are not uh the enemy cannot adapt to us we have to protect our ability to utilize spectrum and then finally it would be how do we operate in Spectrum constraints because we're not in Afghanistan anymore we can't willy-nilly use everything we want to use China Russia other near peer threats they have the ability they have the ability ability to stop us they have the ability to jam us they have the ability to sty us if your equipment goes down what you Ser you to the commander if the commander can't talk to his other commanders how is the fight going to go so we have to understand the environment what the enemy capabilities are and have fixed actions in place ways to remedy that all right the approach I'm going to go with this one so I definitely agree with all the points there um this question was posed to really the rang of regiment when we went to NTC last year is we're always been expected and viewed as a CT unit and doing coin in Afghanistan so how do we quickly shift and modify adapter operations to support in in a lisco environment so went to NTC and we showed that I think what it comes down to is it's mastering the basics I'm looking at this as the individual user so how the ew professionals are going to conduct their mission and support the the maneuver elements and we ble to show that through mastering the basics through same thing understanding the equipment to its fullest understanding uh just studying the enemy and learning hey there's a signal we got to get after so how we identify it how we then uh are able to maneuver um whether whatever some kind of capability some direct action or uh indirect fire to to eliminate that so it was showing that we demonstrated we were able to adjust like all the years of experience that we had um with a solid Baseline we're still able to adapt to the new enemy a different front so uh goes down to the training and prepar preparation and mastering the basics and just applying it to a different Battlefield yeah so I think uh along those lines there were a lot of key Lessons Learned in the counter Insurgency efforts that uh that can be applied to the new problem Set uh with with more knowledge base of the Target and that the target is going to bring uh some of their own capabilities to bear that we didn't see in coin I think one of the key aspects here is that uh the lessons that we learned uh were fairly inexpensive in the counterinsurgency fight because of the level of War and what the enemy brought to fight uh the the key here is that lessons are going to be way more expensive um a a lot higher cost to to the US if we're if we're learning them uh after engagements have begun uh so the key here is what are we doing in Phase zero in preparation for uh that conflict yeah um so again agree with everything said um I'm going to kind of disagree a little bit with my Navy Brethren here so the Navy and the Air Force they tend to man their arms but in the Army we arm our men so I don't think it's going to be crazy cost um I don't think it's going to cost all that much money but I'm kind of optimistic about this we've always been a very reactive Army and for my first time in 20 years we're becoming a very proactive Army the fact that we're even having these conversations right this is making us transition and pivot in the military and we have a competitive advantage that our adversaries don't have and that's the non-commissioned officer right I will always say that the non-commissioned officer is the competitive Advantage our pacing threat doesn't have an NCO core our acute threat doesn't have an NCO core right so if we just take empiricism and common sense then we can get to success if you kind of distill empiricism in common sense to an army perspective that just comes down to training so the theme to all of my answers to these questions is we just have to train to our adversary right Empower our non-commissioned officers execute Mission command and you will have a competitive advantage against our adversary one one quick cting Point sorry that that wasn't a reference to uh money it was a reference reference to the failures through not executing properly oh yeah absolutely absolutely so so continuing on that vein so in uh 2023 uh Brigadier General vile stated during the maneuver War Fighters conference and this is a direct quote if you remember nothing else remember 8 minutes what is eight minutes after you break squelch on your radio you're going to learn two things in eight minutes how good was your mcom and how good are your adversaries ew soldiers fast forward one year and a couple of months later based on the exponential growth of both ours and our adversaries technology I would say that you now have 880 seconds but 80 Seconds for our adversaries to sense and geolocate you how long you have to survive is really going to be based upon their kill chain of choice and weapon system that they choose to engage you whether that be indirect fire all the way up to Tactical level surface to F surface to surface uh weapon systems so with that thought in mind I'm going to ask the panel members you know how do we ensure that our enlisted personnel receive comprehensive training in gemo and SEMA and specifically what specific skills and competencies are critical to the success in this domain and I'll again start with SAR major egbula thank you SAR major so to answer the question I would fall back on I would say practice makes perfect so uh a little saying I like to tell my soldiers is like when you're a baby you can't even walk but by the time you're an adult you're able to run marathons that's just because you have practice walking so Riflemen they go out to the range they practice Marksmanship so as signalers we have to practice gimo so practice makes perfect we need to get to these CTC rotations we need to go to these ftxs we need to have realistic training where instead of the commander just saying hey yeah let's connect to the fiber or hey yeah I want to go ahead and just get this done make the S happy we need to inject interference we need to in inject problems with the communications we need to inject real world problems that our near peer adversaries are going to give to us because if you're not doing realistic training when you really get into it you're not going to know what to do so in addition to that uh something I tell my formation often um is that so in Ranger regiment it's a ranger first mentality doesn't matter if you're infantryman if you're ew you're Intel it's Ranger first so you got to focus on those big five and that's going to be uh the main focus of it is via Marksmanship Mobility Fitness uh Communications and and medical you got to be able to do that and that is that's how you get hired into uh into range regiment and continually have to work to to be good at that additionally though when you're in the armb you have you're you hired for a reason and that's to provide that enabling function so for ew they have that challenge of what they have to be an electronic warfare professional so it's and and why do they have to have the it's not just I say Ranger first it should apply to all formations we are providing an enabling capability at the Tactical Edge and if the maneuver element you're supporting does not trust you they're going to find ways to not bring you out there or just say give me your kit and I'll do it for you so you absolutely need to continue to focus on being a fit war fighter to then obviously be entrusted to provide your capability to it so but it's it's it's going to be the running thing for this is It's mastering the basics you got to be able to do all those things just because you're a cyber professional or ew professional or signal or you got to still maintain those basics of being a soldier yeah I mean uh said it often in nsw you know train train how you fight because you are going to fight how you train uh and so along the lines of what bully was talking about um if you're not if you're not introducing what you will experience in the battlefield into your training situ situations then you're setting yourself up for failure um I think that you have to do that uh and it's something that if the the commanders and the and the senior leaders in those in these large scale exercises and all sorts of other events like that um don't understand the capability they're less likely to employ it so there's got to be a um a constant press to to push that knowledge forward and to and to help them understand understand why they should be incorporating that into it and not working around it yeah so same thing training right I think comprehensive training you have to have a contested EMS and you don't need a gazillion dollars worth a kit to do that right just turn a system off run through your pace plan take the primary out stress the alternate take the alternate out stress the contingency have blackout Windows right and then as far as specific skills I think from a gemo perspective whether you're c a cyers space information Advantage Air Force Navy right you have to provide situational awareness we owe that to our commanders right so that's a specific skill we have to be able to provide situational awareness we also need to be able to identify deception actions right I don't think we're learning lessons in the Ukraine I think we're observing lessons in the Ukraine and that's of great benefit um from multiple fronts and then finally right we have to integrate multi-domain operations to achieve superiority right these are the three critical skills that I think have to come out of that and from that we should be able to have four deliverables that we could give to our commanders right we should h we should develop a spectrum plan we should be able to nominate and assign frequencies we should be able to generate The Joint communication Electronics uh operating instructions and then we should be able to develop the derful right we owe that to our soldiers so a little in Ingenuity and Innovation goes a long way you don't have to have a crazy budget to get after these tasks so just to uh Circle back around you said all the things that the spectrum manager does it just makes me really happy so you know maybe I'll get a race one team one fight exactly exactly so uh but going back to uh skills and competencies I I believe like uh you you hit the the the Neville on the head battle um Network design you have to have a Rob robust Network design so you have to be able to identify the interference and then be able to mitigate it so you need a good and robust Pace plan so your pace can't just be variations of the same radio system so you know the enemy has been watching us for years they know what we're going to do they know what we have or they have an idea of what we're going to do but they definitely know what we have and they know its capabilities so that way we have to keep them guessing we can't fall into the Trap of complacency okay so all all all great great answers so I'm going to shift a little bit because we as an army um and one of one of the benefits of having a a joint panel here is we're never going to operate individually no matter no matter what we do we are always going to operate in a joint environment with not only jointly we're also going to operate with our Coalition partners and allies so my my next question um I'll start with s major FS is how can we seamlessly integrate gemo and SEMA capabilities into joint and partner operations all right well I have yet to see it done seamlessly I know that's that's the great challenge of it um and even I think to start off with focusing on on Doctrine and that was I'm glad we started off the panel with that of explain the doctrine and helping understand just how the Army views it but then um understanding how our our partner forces view it as well uh and with that Doctrine we need to look at has it evolved has it changed because when we started doing this in the mid 2000s they're we're working off old Doctrine old policy to which these capabilities did not exist so we're going to need to continue to to review and challenge those and then ensure that we understand it but then through that then is creating and and working towards the actual Baseline of what our what our training is and what we're actually doing uh to to enable again like the capabilities that we're doing and that's there's recently uh one of my one of my peers put a great model out he showed uh Doctrine Baseline and experience and in the graph it showed during gwatt how it existed where it um I don't have it here to show in this one but it just in relation to understanding Doctrine what the Baseline was then and what the experience level and he was applying this as as 11 Alpha um one of the batan commander leaders and so I actually adapted that to show what the armed was doing and really when we started doing a lot of our things didn't exist so the doctrine didn't exist yet The Joint publ didn't exist yet so that was almost nothing because we didn't we hadn't been doing it yet there was no Baseline but we gained a lot of experience in doing it and with that then was that the right experience it's hard to say we definitely gained a lot of it but now with gwok gone and and with uh definitely plenty of conflicts probably on the horizon which we can get experienced we need to ensure that we know the doctrine and have a great Baseline across the formation so we're performing those functions the right way and then getting the great experience um so then tying that into it uh just like right now like soft has been using U certain equipment for for a good while like Ruben here was great like we were talking about this is good Reminiscing on he he he worked he was working on development of some key pieces of equipment that is now being fielded to the Army some eight years later so during one of the other panels I heard like hey tenth mountain is getting is getting uh a piece of equipment like that's great we've been using that for a long time what is their Baseline on that and so we can absolutely help that so to stimulus the integrate you you have to start lowest levels making sure you understand that equipment and it's great that the user knows how to use it you need to then integrate that into the maneuver element how you do that start at one bit at a time uh how do we do that is last year uh there's an exercise we did out at Fort watuka in which our our ew went out and identified signals of Interest was able to Direction find to it and we brought a mortar team out from 275 and they put mortars on it and they love that so one of the best experien they had they've never seen anything like that they've never done that they haven't heard anybody doing that and that's been proliferating and I know elements now are other uh like tenth mountain is about to set up that exercise to do that once they get their equipment and set so it just keeps stepping up on one piece at a time until you're integrating it into larger exercises and when those Rock drills are going on in the past it you get to the team like this team we're going to move into this area they're walking you through the what they're doing they're starting here they're going here sping they're going to go in this formation and our special equipment is X but they don't lay into what kind of effect they're trying to do in a lot of ways that that effect that they want to do is going to be white carded in the end that is no there's no way that's going to be seamlessly integrated into a real world operation so we need to get away from White carding of anything and we need to demonstrate these capabilities in the training environment NTC jrtc all these training environments are are providing as an Adaptive adaptive enemy that's also employing to their levels uh higher you know levels of of technology and we're we're able to adapt to that but we're no longer white carding these things we're employing the technology against an enemy an Adaptive enemy and then when it comes down to it and that's at the Army level we're continuing to work with our counterparts and not going to steal it thunder air uh of how we're integrating the other capabilities from the other services into it so once again the theme right is just training because and it goes back to I talk Doctrine Crea a Baseline the experience is not going to be gained we're going to gain experience on the battlefield we need to have that experience and be prepared to do it when it's actually called the true operation yeah training critical that uh I I'll definitely Circle back to that I think two kind of different things with ew and with cyber I think in the cyber world you you have us cybercom Who's acting as a joint training lead who's we're we're already on the path to synchronizing capabilities Across The Joint Force when it comes to cyber um because of the establishment of us cybercom and and the efforts that they have going on there with each service being responsible for uh providing forces to that capability and uh and a kind of centralized place for um for managing that the training and the qualifications and whatnot uh I I don't think that exists anywhere currently for ew and I think that's going to be one of one of the um that's kind of the long pull in the tent when it comes to the Joint fight is that common understanding the common knowledge base and the and the training you start you know I think the way you get after that is training to the theory because the theory the like the the different Technologies in play will be common across the board and so if you're train to that you can throw any operator any into into a situation and they should be able to pick it up with you know learning a few buttons and stuff but if you're if you're training to systems in particular um then that's going to be a lot harder ask in the joint environment yeah so Kevin brought up a good point about seamless integration right uh but that's the great thing about being a professional in a profession we acknowledge that we will never achieve Perfection but in the pursuit of perfection we can get excellent right so on that pursuit of perfection um I think the way we seamlessly integrate is through planning prioritization integration synchronization and deconfliction really just good staff work so that the the men and women at the Tactical Edge are able to oper are able to execute gemo operations um and then the challenges that exist in joint operations right that's interoperability and standardization issues but then I'll go back to what I said originally we're having these conversations we're being a proactive Army so even though that exists super optimistic about that and then just the complexity of joint operations right how often do I get to work with my Navy Brethren or my Air Force Brethren or my space Brethren right but again we're having these conversations from the Pentagon all the way down to the team leader level so very optimistic and then resource constraints and Technology gaps but again that just comes down to Innovation right Ingenuity and Innovation do the best you can with what you have just because you don't have equipment doesn't mean that you should be sitting in your office and you shouldn't be training figure something out because you're never going to rise to a level of performance that supersedes your greatest day in training I think that last point there I think is is key and that's where training to the the Technologies themselves and not to specific systems or equipment uh become critical because there's there's a lot of off-the-shelf solutions or things that people can can figure out on their own if they have the right knowledge base to build off of all all very very good very good responses and so it it highlights where we're where we're going to go next um on on this panel and so from The Joint ew Viewpoint the Navy in the Navy and in the Air Force failure in the EMS has lethal consequences we as an army are just starting to realize this take example if you fail to dominate in the EMS and use your Advanced es equipment in the Navy that petty officer who sits in the cic who's not able to protect the USS Carl Vincent from an anti-ship missile using Advanced es capability is going to result in the loss of an aircraft carrier and 6,000 Sailors that has lethal consequences translate over into our Air Force partners and our Air Force Brethren if you can't dominate whether you're a backseater in some aircraft or whether the pilot themselves using advanced DS systems can't dominate the electromagnetic spectrum that aircraft is going to get shot down you're going to lose the aircraft you're going to possibly lose the pilot and you're unable to actually achieve the actual mission objectives whatever that was either deep strike or counter the enemy iads so the Army has shifted from coin to to lisco and and and let's be honest as we've looked and and the panel members have already highlighted this in a coin fight I was not worried about whether you're in Afghanistan or whether you're in Iraq I wasn't worried about being geolocated by the Taliban or aqi I didn't have to worry about our long Transmissions that I had on the radio it didn't have lethal consequences we still had to deal with r ceds but that wasn't triggered by our mcom and our understandings of the EMS and so now we have a better understanding of how we have to dominate in the electromagnetic spectrum specifically our es to be able to protect doing EP and the lethal effects of that on our combat power so what I'll transition to is is is my next CH question really focuses on what challenges exist in coordinating all these efforts across the different branches and different services and and I'll start with Master Chief yeah so I think uh common common understanding that the precisely what you just highlighted of the risk that's involved with not fully understanding um the the electromagnetic spectrum and the and different capabilities that come to bear with that and what the enemy has in their say in that um I think you know in combat the surface Warfare officers who are not you know electromagnetic spectrum professionals fully understand by it because they know that they live and die by uh their ability to operate in and through it um I I can't speak to the Army so I I don't know if that's the the same um for the different combat uh the different Warfare areas within the Army um but I know coming like a common shared understanding of that and and ensuring that uh you know we're not stepping on each other in the EMS as well like as we're as we're operating in in buy through it uh it's going to be critical to our success and I think that the way you get to that kind of circles back again to the beginning with uh you know how do we how do we scale this into large scale exercises where we are operating together um seeing what each service is bringing to the fight in that environment um without without white carding it and without um you know doing doing the hand wve that yeah okay there was interference and troduced here um white carted we have to actually do it we have to actually put ourselves to those Paces can you give me the question one more time this is a this is a an offthe cuff question I wasn't prepared for this one yep so what challenges exist coordin coordinating these efforts across different branches and services um I really think that that is just a it's just a shift in culture uh I heard the star major of the army say the other day in an interview um he said said I've been in combat but I've never been in war right and I never thought about it um from that perspective so you know and he spot on I've never been in combat I've I mean I've never been in war I've only been in combat I think so we have to shift our culture and appreciate the gravity of the threat that large scale combat operations um highlight um and we Empower our leaders we execute Mission command um and we Embrace Innovation while fostering failing in training so that we can learn from ourselves so the CH some of the challenges we Face are I would say interop interoperability so and that's just not it happens at multiple levels like even within the signal core so we got one unit with this new piece of uh this new piece of equipment this other unit using this other piece of equipment across our across our branches you know Army has equipment that cannot talk to Navy equipment or we have one radio that the Air Force can use if they want to talk to our ground troops so we have to be interoperable enough that's a huge challenge we have to be interoperable enough that we're able to talk to ourselves before we go into a large scale combat operations where we're fighting with Britain we're fighting with France we're fighting with Germany against a common enemy these countries have totally different uh Radio Systems they use not totally different but they use different Spectrum bandwidths you know they might their Commander might want to use something that interferes with something we really want want to use so how do we get around that so in order to get around that we have to work together we have to breed familiarity familiarity I think I said that right yeah so we have to work with each other we have to know what our partners have and how to work with them understand the tradeoffs like hey if these guys are coming to the fight these people are coming to the fight we're going to have to use this we're going to have to use that and uh just understanding uh the the the limited resources we have cuz spectrum is a finite resource there's only so much nobody's making any more of it and everybody's using it so it's ve it's very valuable so SEMA jimo they need a seat at the table they need to be heard by the commander so he understands the tradeoffs when he's uh picking a course of action yep so i' I've definitely seen conflict or it's really expectation management issues and communication issues when trying to integrate across the different forces I know the world old example actually almost 10 years ago now uh the Army Commander wanted a desired effect on a Target Raad Target that we were going to and we would communicate it and say this is what we can do in this way but we knew it wasn't going to have the the full scale effect that we needed so we relied on uh an Air Force platform to provide this to us again you know this unclassified so that's why it's still wave Tops on this discussion but uh therefore like yep we can do that and on the target the effect happened they considered it success the Army Commander got back AR just like given it to his ew guy who was the army guy and like no they they applied the effect it happened that way it's like no it did not this is what this was still happening these things were happening so it just demonstrated multiple levels different terminology different effects and at different scales and it had never been done in a training environment so this was something of hey we're going to integrate this first time on a real world op a and so it didn't affect the the mission still went down everything was still a success thankfully there was no cost there was no cost affected on that one uh of life or resources but it just demonstrated right there like we need to integrate this and before we do these things we need to run this through real world mission Real World Training demonstrate this capability so that it's seamlessly integrated when we actually need it all right so I'm I'm going to move to another another followup with this one so for SAR major Jan to start us off with you know what what metrics you know or indicators should we use to assess the effectiveness of enlisted personnel and gemo and SEMA roles and then and then secondly you know how can we ensure continuous Improvement because we always have to to to get better um and and Achieve that operational excellence that you talked about before yeah so I'm not going to differentiate between a gemo or a SEMA NCO or a soldier the Army got this right right its attributes and competencies this is how we measure uh the effectiveness of a non-commissioned officer or an enlisted Soldier and then leadership potential right my only job is to make sure that the army that I leave behind is better than the army that I got right so when you are a staff sergeant are you performing better than I performed than a staff sergeant if the answer is yes I am doing my job if the answer is no I need to find a mirror and I need to re-evaluate and then physical Fitness and Readiness is another huge metric right and then this is the steel Kevin's point I heard SAR major Brett Johnson talk about the ranger big five years ago um and I stole it because he said in his talk that I could steal it right so when I say Readiness mirroring what SAR major Johnson was talking about was Marksmanship medical training small unit tactics mobility and communication um throughout my career I've encountered a lot of 17 Echoes or back then 29 Echoes right that felt like they didn't have to do these things either because because of their job or because they were above it but back to Kevin's point right you're a soldier first that's what I was taught in basic training first you're an infantryman then you're whatever it is else it is that you go on to AIT to do and Soldier development and mentorship to my earlier point right are you ensuring that the army that you leave behind is better than you right that's my definition of legacy not what I've accomplished but where where I've helped the Army get too um and then how do we ensure continuous Improvement I think that's through structured and adaptive training I think gets through emphasizing leadership and mentorship not just talking about it I was a sar first class promotable before I got my first counseling statement right that was my journey through or excuse me my uh not my first counseling statement my first um senior leader counseling uh God I'm having a brain F right now um why can't I think of what I'm trying to think of right now my uh the lights my senior Raider I was a star first class promotable before I got my first senior Raider counseling right so we talk about leadership and mentorship but not every organization builds a culture that really believes in it um I think we Foster a culture of innovation and adaptability which we've already talked about at length so I won't beat it up anymore um and then I think we have clear and structured career paths I was talking to S major Jesse Potter about this the other day in the hallway um that hasn't always been the case for the 17 echo or the 29 Echo we've been kind of just yo-yoed around and we've been doing what the Army tells us to do and and we're soldiers that's what we should do um but as we get after retention right if we outline clear and structured career paths then it's going to really help with uh our retention and S major Potter to his credit he's got that bucket and it's full and he's ready to execute um and that's all I'll say on that so for uh measure the effectivess you know that just goes down to uh mops and mes measures of performance measures of Effectiveness so I think uh I brought up a point earlier in the in the introduction that uh Riflemen they they have a very specific mops and mes like hey you go to the r you go to the range you shoot 30 you're a sharpshooter you shoot 36 you're expert so to get after that we should do the same thing at signalers we should do the same thing in gy so sales hey we're going to the CTC hey we're going to this FTX I'm going to introduce the this type of interference is this unit able to identify it is this unit able to properly uh react to it uh Master Chief said something earlier that was really good he said uh inexpensive Lessons Learned so when you're playing in the backyard that that is the time to to get these mopsos in this is the time to get the experience where it doesn't cost anything but you know know once lisco happens once we're in the real fight that's when it's going to cost that's when it's going to become really expensive terms of equipment Manpower money so there's two parts where I look at the Met like measuring the metrics of Effectiveness though I've mentioned that having smaller exercises so when we run through our training Cycles um my individual platoon like and even down a squad level they're validating uh it through their individual training exercises or just training before they go to the larger exercises so we're validating that that they are conducting their technical job their enabling job whatever it is uh so that's one level and and being assessed by through the leadership on oversight from us to ensure that they're they are effective at their their job when you get to NTC or JTC or the larger exercise the 05 level exercises are 06 or higher I I am not looking them to do their job I already know they can do their job the the H of commanders are looking to that to ensure that they're applying the effects but I am measuring how they're integrating with the maneuver elements that point in time so I knew they did their job that's why they're there I have full confidence are doing that but at that point I am ensuring that they're integrating and providing that effect effectively to to the maneu element yeah so I think uh very very very similar take uh on the ew side uh you you kind of have to demonstrate it through actually like utilizing the capabilities and and showing that you're proficient with it I think the it's a little bit different for me and in cyber to some extent um there's been talks in many different circles about how how are we ensuring that we're retaining the right people how are we ensuring that uh they have the right level of Readiness and and skills and capabilities a lot of a lot of these uh a lot a lot of the skills are if you're not using them you lose them um and so how how are you ensuring that you you are the right person for the fight that you are ready um and that you are continuing to improve on your position and and your knowledge base becoming the becoming the master of your trade um and there's been there's been talks I think probably one of the closest things I've seen to it is uh like the associations of PCT and and systems like that where you know in my mind we take we take a a whole whole different look at how we track and manage careers in the Cyber profession with like a a lifelong while you're in service um system that tracks what your qualifications are how current you are um what levels of uh sort of um you know are you a beginner a a senior or a master operator uh some something like that that kind of follows you you that you can quickly reference and pull up and know what your where your current Force disposition is um and your and your current Readiness I think something like that would be critical moving forward um so so we've we've been here for coming on close to almost 45 minutes and we've had some some some great discussion we've had some great topics um and and and as we I'm I'm going to go back down through the group just just as your kind of wrapup thought of the one thing so if you could have everybody as they walk out of here what would be the one thing that you would want them to take um away with them and so I'll I'll I'll start it from the pieces so as I you know we we we gave the questions you know some of the questions we were going to ask and the themes so that way you had the opportunity to to look at some of this but what I what I really took away and actually to go to to Master Chief's Point um and hearing it said that way is it's not about the piece of equipment it's not about the capability it's understanding the science behind the actual piece and so you know we go we we've even demonstrated this um in in in in National Training Center rotations where we've had individuals that were given a piece of equipment and they were utilizing the piece of equipment and the piece of equipment broke and then and then we're sitting there you know we're sitting there as the you know the OC's with them and and they're like okay I I don't know what to do well you actually do know what to do just don't utilize the piece of equipment what is the science behind what are you're doing here's a command line here is this piece do it manually and I think as we as we look at this sometimes we look to get the material solution look to get the you know use the word that we like to stay away from I don't need a career field I don't need professionals to be script kiddies I need individuals to be able to have the knowledge of the science behind what they're actually doing so when I have to execute as as as s major jenin said when I have to execute my Pace plan I can very quickly be able to continue to execute and provide the effect that my commander needs to have regardless of whether my primary piece of equipment is operational I have an ability to be able to achieve that effect so that's what I would say from my viewpoint that if there's anything to take with you along the with B mastering the basics is you have to be able to understand the science behind what you actually do pass to you s major so uh the thing to take away is uh sure we're all aware we work in if not the most important domain one of the most important domains so without us the Commander can't get the job done all right so we've been we have excelled in our field for years but nobody here or very few of us here have experience on the fight we're about to the fight we're about to get into so it's a whole different world it's a whole different game moving forward all right so we have a smart and determined enemy they have been watching us for years they have been taking notes for years they know where we're strong they know where we're weak and they're putting money in an area that is going to hurt us if your unit is not cyber ready your unit will fail so just the thing to think about just the thing to to to leave the room with us as Leaders we have to reiterate to our commanders the importance of spectrum management we have to understand the importance of operating in a joint environment working together because we can't get through this fight alone we're going to need our sister branches we're going to need our partner Nations to fight this near peer threat so I think this is extremely exciting time for ew and cyber like there was a time 10 years ago let's than that where ew was viewed at by his commands as just an extra worker and that's that's sad to say but they didn't the commands didn't know what to do with their ew Personnel so they just stuck them in jobs that just needed somebody to do and and that is not going to be the case now like with right now with the the the massive focus on Fielding the proper equipment to all the divisions and out there the formations the 17 echos to do their job everything we've been talking about the challenges that integrating and demonstrating your worth and what why the maneuver forces need you uh is just that much more important but because that again it's this is an exciting time to be here because it is like the military like you are being demanded to do your job now I hope that affects like we have probably we have lost far too many professionals that came in the Army to do ew and weren't utilized that's one of the main things people get out for they're not doing their job and they're not surrounded by like-minded individuals and they don't have a good you know operational culture within their units and that is changing like look how much emphasis how much this conference grows every year and how the just the immense focus of the military onw cyber signaling all those kinds of things so uh definitely excited appreciate being here and getting to talk on this panel hope you guys got something out of this um hopefully see you around soon especially next year yes so I I have full faith that when the time comes the men and women of the United States of America is going to rise to the rise to the occasion win the fight um my hope my hope is that through further investment in into these into this capability space um that we we win it a lot a lot less of an expensive cost to the US people um and and again not not money necessarily is what I'm talking about um to the to the folks sitting in this room right um I think the where we're going to really make our money is in our efforts in Phase zero pre-conflict and if we're not engaged early and in that phase um and demystifying what what these capabilities are and what they can bring to bear um through through policy and and then also through uh um like a knowledge-based campaign of of of employing them and incorporating them into uh regular battle rhythms of how we're conducting business uh I think that's going to be key to potentially even preventing um that conflict uh and then in the event that it does rise to that point I think it's going to it'll be critical in giving us uh that tactical Edge um and and uh and a more lethal advantage in in a lisco conflict um I'll leave you with uh as a leader right it is your duty to be the change agent that allows your soldier to discover a level of greatness that they previously thought was unattainable that is your duty as a leader in this profession of arms and I hope that you take that away from this so so with that um that's going to conclude the formal portion of our of our panel um and so we have according to the big screens right here roughly about 20 minutes um to take questions from the audience thank you uh we do have some questions uh the first question is for command sergeant major folz um is there a role for a command warrant officer in the ranger regiment how would that individual work with the senior ncos is Chief Baker out there somewhere we he hit me with us uh a few days ago um there is not currently a command Chief one officer position but that's had to fed this question through one of you um it's something that I'm looking at and not unlike the 11 side 11 series they wouldn't like not un like actual combat arms focus it would be question was driven towards this Tech Focus through signaling and So currently there is not um this just came out last week so I have not even had a chance to talk to the regimental Commander about it or even my Battalion Commander counterpart so uh check back with me uh you know look me up email me and see if I I got to follow up in a couple weeks on that one thank you uh next question how does the army shift to the division as unit of Action Impact SEMA and gemo operations so I guess I guess I'll I'll start with this one so um as many of you know um with the publishing of the rru um some of the biggest changes to the for struct um and the level of capability um has significantly changed so previously um at the Brigade combat Team level all that was was a staff planning element um that had the staff planning pieces and you had that down into the Battalion and then in the force structure eventually came uh with the establishment of the MOs they added an ew platoon at the Brigade combat Team level and now with the arru coming and the shift of the focus to the division level the ew platoons will still remain in the bcts but the Army has invested in ew companies at the division level and then also at the core but designed to be downward reinforcing so they have that capability resident now there which expands across the entire division's battle space of what they're actually able to achieve be it es or be it EA or even EP and some of our things that we look at and some of you that i' that I've talked to during this conference in the last couple of days one of the things we forget is when we talk about ew there is this shift in understanding that I need to focus on electronic attack and so I would say that sometimes we forget about the other aspects of what es enables and we kind of hit it a little bit on this on this panel SAR major fols hit it with what the Rangers did out there at Fort watuka but we sometimes forget that if you use EA if my capability for EA doesn't exceed the range of the enemy indirect capability whatever that is either artillery or missile all I do is turn on a giant Target and so we forget sometimes that we can utilize capability especially now at the division level that I have es and I have those additional sensors across the division battle space that enable lethal kill chains just like I talked about all the way back to briger General vile's comment the lethal kill chains being able to use es and then those same professionals are then able to turn around and all I got to do is turn around 180 degre or maybe maybe 45 depending on how my forces are arrayed to be able to use that same capability that we've now built into the divisions and the cores to be able to conduct electronic protection to be able to see ourselves and to be able to deal with our mcom to make us a smaller Target to increase the adversaries lethal keychains so hopefully that that gets it going if anyone else wants to I think electronic protection and we're observing this in the Ukraine right now every time president zalinsky gets on and has any type of speech or is advocating right he constantly saying protection is the most important War fighting function I cannot do maneuver I cannot do artillery I cannot conduct intelligence operations in the absence of protection so yes the EA the Oco phase zero things these are very important but as we endure and we transition from movement to maneuver and back to movement with artillery electronic protection is critically important we have any more yes thank you um do you have any further thoughts on what else is needed to provide SEMA capabilities and teams to help the Army reach its uh vision for SEMA so I think I think I mentioned it before it's just uh seat at the table so techet is a great opportunity for all our uh vendors and all our stakeholders to come out and showcase what they have what they can do it's our job as Leaders to go back to our commanders and say hey I saw this highspeed piece of equipment that probably meets your needs so we have to go back and show the commander what we can do because for the longest we said it earlier you know we were like the the the uh The Unwanted stepchild sitting at the table you know they didn't really yourself I was always wanted everywhere I went yeah okay so we were sitting at the table we didn't really have a voice they didn't know what we did or when we had the opportunity to showcase what we could do you know we didn't do it properly or they just didn't even want to see it because they were uh they were focused on you know completing the mission with the the highest uh the highest uh rate possible the highest possible score so you know they didn't want any problems they didn't want any like ew problems or anything they wanted everything to run smoothly but that's not the case you know in the real world is not going to run smoothly it's not running smoothly for the Russians it's not running smoothly for Hamas so how can we expect it for how can we expect it to run smoothly for us so we have to be visible we have to Showcase what we have we have to Showcase what we can do and when we have the opportunity we have to produce we have to you know wowl establish that Baseline whenever uh it was actually elements from 101st they came and visit us a few months ago which is actually they had some great lessons learned that they they took and they just demonstrated jrtc so it's really cool to see how quickly they integrated things one of their questions was um is they were concerned when they get a a 17 Echo R of the schoolhouse they're throwing them right in the formation expecting them to perform their job so there was Zero integration for it so you you need to protect your soldiers on that don't allow that opportunity where you throw them right from the schoolhouse essentially Into the Fire into that that reconnaissance team whatever they're going out with so you need to have you need to establish that Baseline at your unit to ensure that once they're at the schoolhouse they get the proper training and in migration into your formation before you employ them because it just takes that one failure with that reconnaissance unit and they're never going to want that again or they're not going to ever treat their people the right way so establish that proper Baseline yeah you bring up it's onboarding right the way you onboard Personnel right so there's no there's no one siiz fits-all solution but you look across any Fortune 50 100 500 company to include the United States Army the way you onboard your personnel is so critical and how your commander will use that person throughout their tenure and that organization so tends to get overlooked um but onboarding I mean it's leader business and it's it's critically important I think also ensuring that the training that they're getting before they get there sets them up for Success ensuring that they have like real world ability to to integrate like they can demonstrate a value ad when they do get there um that was I mean that was critical for us you know operating with navy Sals who didn't fully understand what we brought to the table and when they're contemplating uh weights and chalk loads and can we what what does it cost us to add you to the choco what do you bring to the fight and it was ensuring that we set our folks up for success by training them properly before they got integration into the into the SEAL Teams so that they they were value add the second they they got to the team so so I'll add I'll add one additional one additional piece of this so one of the things you know to make SEMA the more more effective is you know and the panel has already talked about it we have to be able you know if we don't rise to our training you know we're not going to be successful in combat and so I I I'll use an example and so we have yet to integrate SEMA completely into our training rotations I will use an example so first Infantry Division first brigade combat team they went out they created ew weapon Splatoon so they took ew professional at the time they put them in a piece of equipment they paired them with 13 Fox field artillery so in the National Training Center for those of you familiar you know as you end towards the end of your rotation you go into the assault so you go into the whale and so for those of you that have actually been out there you know how critical that training event is and for the training audience and so you had the ew weapons platoon was employed and they had gotten to the point through that rotation that every every time the op four transmitted on the radio every time they keyed their mic they geolocated them down to a 10 digit grid and with the integration of the fires element you know through the training they had the OC right there they would fire an Excalibur and they would kill a tank they would kill a Bradley or you know the viz mods they would kill the enemy piece within 10 minutes they decimated a brigade combat team down to a company minus to the point that they actually paused came out told the ew patune you guys are phenomenally successful thank you you may now leave the box and they kicked him out of the box so the difference was is that they weren't able because the focus was the training audience and I use it as an example because it is very effective but what we have yet to do in that space is actually force a maneuver Commander to fight in that type environment you know I I think back to my time you know prior to 911 doing some jrtc rotations when we actually did fulls scale combat operations you would have an entire infantry company that the OC would walk up and say go to the phha you're gone you wipe out an entire infantry company off the battlefield and they'd be gone for three days and it would force that Commander to actually fight in that degraded status we have yet to do that because they don't see that as the training objective I think after some of the things that we've experienced in Ukraine um that some of the focus has shifted to exactly that that that that is the actual training effect that needs to be achieved that's the training audience how do you fight when you can't talk how do you fight when you have all these digital systems and all these other things and you haven't dealt with your mcom to be able to actually function and so I think that is going to be one of the things that as we move forward how do we truly Embrace SEMA and then as to many have that said on the panel that you're actually really getting a true seat at the table in those discussions and being able to employ those lethal capabilities yeah but I think so to your point we're also in a good place right because when you know you started this before me but I've been doing this 13 years now if we look at what 25th ID is doing what the 101st is doing what what 10 mountain is doing like the commanders are buying into this right but I think to truly utilize the capabilities of the SEMA platoon or the ew company it's going to require a lot of humility from guys like us right when I went through the course I was taught how to be a pat clerk for the Air Force right hey this is a jar go do staff work fill it out send it to the Air Force hope and pray you get an asset hey you just did ew here's your gold sticker right but now I have Specialists coming out of school houses that are blowing my doors off they're like hey Sarge do you think about this and I'm like hey who taught you that and they're like oh we learned this at the schoolhouse man and I'm like okay hey get all these guys together let's have a question we're going to do SEMA 101 with the old sh major and we're going to figure this out right because I got leadership down somewhat I understand how the Army works better but there's a lot of kids coming out of these School houses that have a better grasp of radio frequency propagation that I was taught or trained too right so with an amalgamation of all those different skill sets right and a dash of humility we can really do amazing things with the seam of platoon and the ew company thank you we we have one more question from the audience do you have any thoughts on training costs as cyber training almost entirely relies on industry standard and fighting against the economic disadvantages of cyber training for soldiers most cyber training that yields results career and operations wise is Out Of Reach for many enlisted soldiers and there's currently no large scale model for training within in the Army as opposed to outside organizations the units or individual soldiers are responsible for paying which raises a large issue financially for Quality training yeah so I'm GNA I'm going to take this one first and and and so I I didn't think I would get the opportunity to actually say this in in in a public forum finally um there's there's an element so yes there is training but there's also an element of self-development and and also this this audience the board buk of this audience are non-commission officers the biggest drawback of 911 and coin is we Outsource the non-commission officer period underline it quote me on it I will say it again we outsourc the non-commission officer so the specific thing as we highlight we have to do you know yes there are I'm not dis disparaging our industry partners and the wonderful training that they have to to actually get to that level but we don't have to do that the non-commission officer Corps has been training our own through OJT and Excellence for centuries that's what we've been doing that's what the inherent structure of the non-commission that's what we're created for so I actually say that in that aspect that sometimes we actually have to look within and what can we train our own and then also there's a little bit of self-development you know get the book out read the article do the actual research teach yourself it's not yeah it's great to go to some of these training events they're you know they're they're great training things but sometimes there's a little bit of self-development you got to teach yourself and some of our best individuals that we look at why you are so good at what you do across all of our all of our formations is probably the guy who's got his head in the book or is out there on the internet depending on where in the internet actually learning to actually do something the right way or legal way yeah and then that also though goes to Kevin's point of like establish the Baseline right so again throughout my 13year journey I've encountered a lot of non-commissioned officers that just need a little mentorship but when we talk it's I want to go from zero to large scale congested joint Air Force cyber okay here's a compass shoot a back asmith I'm a cyber guy what are you talking about Compass okay so if we don't have any kit then let's get after physical fitness and let's get after small unit tactics because if I'm struggling with small unit tactics that if somebody does give me kit and I have to go out and in place said kit and employ kit then I'm probably going to have a problem right as an OC I used to get tons of augy e7s and you're like hey man here's your tended grid cord like get after there so to your point where we Outsource the non-commissioned officer and you know it's only supposed to take 45 minutes to get to you know said talk and three hours later I'm calling them on the radio and I'm like hey where you at they're like I don't know man I'm in the Box should I go left or right I'm like hey left or right's not a cardinal direction I think we're in a bad place right now Sarge right so train to what you have if you don't have the kit then Master physical fitness and small unit tactics and mobility and become an expert on all the communication in your arms room so that when you do get that kit it's a two we learning curve it's not a two-year learning curve so i' say uh so this is actually Tas my cyber appe is out there somewhere I know where he's at but uh if he if he came to me and told me that the guys were paying for the training on their pocket I would be highly concerned with that because through and we have a fantastic educational counselor and we find ways all the time to to get them the training well it was like Hey if you want this training what do you what's your goal what is your end state is it going to apply towards the mission then and we agree with that then absolutely we're going to work towards getting actual training for that Ranger and for the other rangers to improve the formation improve the capability Ranger regiment it's for self-development I'm going to push them to education counselor and get it but through the the training that we're actually doing also than the regiment we're working with programs and and there's programs like actually even at watuka um and uh there's certain and even around the fort MO area we're working with the universities that they're getting credit towards degrees from the training that we're doing inside of the regimen so uh part going back to it of that concerns me if if someone is just paying out of pocket all the time because I know of so many ways that you can use tuition assistance or through the Army was ignite program through like there's so many things that that that the soldiers can get the skill paid for by the Army and I don't mean out of your out of your actually like um GI Bill but while you're active duty there are there are many options you just got to explore and reach out and find those programs to to get to get those things paid for Al also to cave on that the Army does have like u a lot of pro uh programs got cools got ta a lot of stuff they can do uh we as leaders have to look at it in as an investment so yes this Soldier wants to go out and get this highs speeded train training is going to take like four weeks for them to do but we don't want to do them because we're going to head into the box in a month or two but you have to look at it in invest as an investment you send this Soldier to this training that Soldier hopefully has enough time to come back and train the rest of the unit so it just prop propagates we're highly technical uh we're a highly technical field so yeah we can do push-ups we can do sit-ups we can shoot a back asmin but if we don't have the technical skills to do our job you know we're not really signals we're Riflemen yeah right also agreed but you know this stuff and then back to Kevin's point right so Define the requirement write the on write the Jons we were sitting in the uh the Cyber 10year happy birthday um and they were you know poking at us because all the warrant officers were up there right because the warrants are writing it and I joking said yeah that's because the non-commissioned officers are out training in the force we don't have time to write this I'll never miss an opportunity to jab my warrant officer brethren but that's the thing right the non-commissioned officers have to sit down Define the requirement right if you don't have the equipment write the on write the Jew on try you're probably going to fail 80% of the time and you're not going to get it but if it meets a line of effort and your commander is into it then get after it start making small distances uh small differences build that momentum capture quick wins and then build on that to get bigger and better things that was our final question for the panel please welcome Mike black back to the [Applause] stage wow what a an amazing panel uh the n's never ceased to amaz me um I appreciate all that uh that you guys shared with us today um we went through a lot of things on um the gy S and SEMA um I took a couple of notes here that I just really want to highlight you guys did set the stage with the with the doctrine and I appreciate that uh that Baseline we talked about how we operate in a contested environment and um you know some of the other takeaways I mean uh you know remember 8 minutes but it's now 80 Seconds okay so things are happening a lot faster practice makes perfect um and he gave that analogy and it's something that you can easily remember that you know you start out walking but when you're an adult you'll be able to do that Marathon so continue to practice the pace plan you foot stomp that we all know what that is you know primary alternate contingency and emergency attributes and competencies I did learn some other things about mops and mo today so I appreciate that I'm Air Force and you mentioned that several times today but uh uh joint joint fight here inexpensive lessons learn understand the science uh reiterate the importance of spectrum management uh efforts in the zero uh phase and be the change agent how about a round of applause for this uh amazing panel in uh in lie of a gift uh speaker gift we're going to make a donation to The Signal cyber uh Corp uh Historical Museum on all of your uh behalfs uh now we have lunch uh coming up uh so please note this is your going to be your final opportunity to go out and visit our exhibitors and thank them uh for their um their participation in this and and make sure you get by the climate control tent uh there to see those exhibitor there's several U well 60 or so in there um we were able to add to that so make sure you get by there and see that enjoy the break we're going to get back here at 12:45 for our final keynote with Lieutenant General Maria Barrett uh Commanding General of army cyber again thank you e