is there a sports gene or or a body type is that is there there absolutely are sports genes and in fact no single Gene but what we're learning so just as kind of the medical genetics Revolution showed that no two people respond to any drug the same way because of differences in their genes we're finding the same thing for sports so no two people respond to any training regime in the same way because their Improvement is mediated by their Gene so we're finding that really people's biology is very specifically set up to profit from certain types of athletic training Epstein debunks a notion many parents have long believed which is that if you start your kids in a particular sport at a young age they stand a better chance at excelling at it later on it's called early specialization I do think parents think when they look at their kids and they think you know Johnny is going to be a football player let's start him when he's four years old is there value in that so so far the science and there's more of it coming shows that early hyp specialization is not the normal route to elite athletic status in fact if you look at eventual Elites versus eventual sub Elites when they're kids the elites actually practice Less in their eventual sport from Victoria British Columbia number 11 Steve Nash so Steve Nash actually exemplifies what the most typical pattern to Elite athlete status is which is through about age 12 he had a sports sampling period played a variety of things wanted to be a pro soccer player didn't get his first basketball until age 13 eight years behind me right obviously did not hinder his skill development as he became you know one of the most skilled basketball players of all time then there's the so-called 10,000 hour Theory which is that if you practice and practice and practice for 10,000 hours you'll be a star lots of people believe that too not Epstein we talk about training and a term that has had a lot of traction lately is this whole 10,000 hour rule is there value in that is that does that can you practice at something for 10,000 hours and then be that athlete no so that that idea that that 10,000 hours of practice will make anyone an expert in anything um no there's no there's no validity that idea if the idea is just that a lot of practice and and quality practice matters absolutely that's correct but that's not controversial right this 10,000 hours comes from a tiny study of violinists who were so highly pre-screened they' already gained admission to a world famous Music Academy right this would be like setting up a study trying to look at basketball skill by using only NBA centers notice say they practiced a lot and saying that's the only thing that got them where they are not practice plus 7t tall right so absolutely copious amounts of practice is important but but genes are important too and finding the spot where you can make people the most successful with practice is really important Epstein notes there are other applications for genes Beyond how they shape the athlete you are or are not he says testing of genes May reveal something else you've hinted at it so is there any is is there is there like good Gene testing or DNA testing or like what what what can be done so what I think is is one of the most important potential tests that's being mostly overlooked is the test for a gene called apoe4 a gene variant that actually predisposes people to not recovering well from concussions for example so these people if they're in car accidents they're more likely to die to have brain bleeding bruising less success with rehab you know and this is this is a huge conversation in hockey and in football now and and we know these people just have more trouble recovering from concussions more likely to have permanent damage and that's something that you might actually want to know even though it's just statistical risk information and though Epstein's research focuses on human athletes he says he learned a real lesson from four-legged Runners a key genetic trait when it comes to Sports in your book you talk about uh the Iditarod uh dog race and desire and the desire in an we're animals you know that that's a part of it how does that play into who becomes Elite athletes yeah so this is really interesting so I knew when I was looking at the book that that physical activity training Alters our dopamine system the pleasure and reward system in the brain what I didn't know is that scientists who study this know full well that the reverse is true differences in our dopamine system setup makes some people have sort of a compulsive drive to move to be physically active to feel rewarded for that and that's actually what idod dogs are bred for right their speed maxed out years ago now the Breeders breed them for the desire to continue to run and to do things like to continue to eat whenever they get a chance chance to and some of these dopamine genes that you see in dogs and that we can model in mice are in humans also so in other words does that mean like for for for you know these dogs that just want to get out there and race that that same desire is in some kids like young Wayne Gretzky just wanted to get out there because he knew he was born to be that guy in fact those cases like Wayne Gretzky or Tiger Woods right where where clearly their parents facilitated a huge amount of practice but the evidence is that they showed this desire that the adult then responds to by forming the environment and that's that's how that usually happens I mean one of my favorite interviews from the book was actually on this topic with Pam Reed a legendary Ultram marathoner and Pam when I interviewed her the day before she had just finished the National Championship in Iron Man Triathlon in New York qualified for worlds in her 50s and her flight out of LaGuardia Airport was delayed and she gets so antsy sitting still she'd stashed her bags and was running laps around the parking structure while I was interviewing her the day after the Iron Man national champion you know that's pretty extreme but that's those people are out there super interesting thanks David thank you appreciate it