right so this session I want to look at um how we counsel people for deliverance so how do we explain this to people for some people it would be no problem you know their culture may be such that they understand things completely but that's not true of of every person so if somebody comes to you and says I know I've got a spirit problem can you help me all well and good but very often as I was saying earlier on that um people don't come with that Concept in mind they they know they've got issues but they want to know how we can deal with them so um how do we how do we explain this to people um because usually people will come different sorts of problems they're struggling spiritually for one reason or another so I've mentioned a number of the different issues that that people have so what we do then is we just listen to people listen to their problem and um try to ascertain what the issue is sometimes people got their lives messed up because of they got a sinful lifestyle and so we just have to counsel them then that they get their life in order sort themselves out um stay close to the Lord and um walk in obedience to God's ways and so problems can be related to a sinful lifestyle that needs to be be sorted out first and in any event if we ascertain there's going to be Deliverance that would need if there if there is that kind of lifestyle that needs to be sorted out for example it's not uncom common for us to minister to people and they are um living together in a relationship not married but living together in a relationship and so we will say to them you sort yourself out first and then we'll minister to you um if you if you're giving your life to Christ then you've got to live according to the biblical ways uh and living together without marriage is not biblical so you go and sort yourself out and we will make people wait until they've sorted themselves out and again it can be a very good incentive for people to um to get their lives on a Biblical pattern if they know that um you know they need help but they won't get it until they're walking right with God so if it's sin Let Them deal that not every situation is a Deliverance issue obviously um and we can't blame the for our own wrongdoings um so sometimes people just need to have an understanding of who they are in Christ you know to be able to grow spiritually in Christ uh they may need to prioritize prioritize their time better with the Lord because they're not walking well with God more time in prayer more time with the Bible keep more Godly company and such like so those things may be required um but if not that issue then we listen to what they're saying and uh ascertain is it a delance issue or not and um what what I've discovered as I said before this is a very common problem it doesn't matter what culture people come from it doesn't matter how old people are I we've had people come here I remember somebody who was 80 years old lived in another part of the country 80y old woman but she was willing to travel here to come to get counsel and then come to a Deliverance meeting 80 years old came a number of times and she was set free I it's great to see having to wait those your 80 is a long time but she was set free I remember another occasion you see the problem people can't find help very often and and they can be desperate I remember one man he was actually a missionary he he was a missionary to another country in Europe uh not somebody I'd known not somebody from our organiz not from our denomination but I remember I don't know how he heard about me but he founded me up one day and he said uh I've got a problem and um he told me what the problem was and he knew it was a problem so I said I think he F me up from this country where he is and I said the problem is I need to talk to you first I need to talk with you we need to ascertain what the issues are I need to give you advice on what to do to get yourself ready um so he said very well I'll get a plane and I'll come to see you so he flew fortunately we he um so he flew over he came just to have a a time with me in the office then he flew back and then on every subsequent occasion of the Del meeting he flew over just for the meeting and he flew back again and um and he was set free thankfully and uh he just goes to show you know that that there's not the help out there that there should be and it is a very common problem um sometimes people say to me um I don't need Deliverance well I don't take that at face value uh but I I'll listen to what they say some people say I do need Deliverance and actually it's a sin problem you know don't blame the devil um so we need to to weigh up the situation um not every situation is is a delimit issue but it is far more common than many people understand sometimes we oppress from the outside you know that that can be the case uh James chapter 4:7 says submit yourselves to God resist the devil and he will flee from you so there are times when we just feel some sort of Oppression which is an outward oppression not an inward one which we can resist we resist by submitting ourselves to God resist the devil so that we need to make sure that there there not other reasons for that problem but um if it's none of those areas then we listen to them and again you just listen what's the problem now I I came to the position a long time ago that when a person speaks to me within the first two or three sentences I can tell whether it's going to be Deliverance issue or not not because I'm super spiritual um but simply because I've heard it so many times before I know what's coming next you know I could almost tell them themselves before they tell me um is that common and so if people come with issues that are clearly differance issues then it's understandable so you just I just talk to them I listen to them what's the problem if they're saying I'm seeing spirits in the house sometimes people say to me can you come to my house and uh and um exorcise the house because I can see spirits in the house well I don't rush to do that because usually I discover that can be possible it can be that situation but usually I would well not usually I would always say actually let's look at you first because you might find that the issue is not the house it's the issues with you that's where you're seeing things um and uh so that's what we do there um you know those sorts of situations where people are aware of a presence around they just know there's something odd happening to them voices in their head as I mentioned strange things happening at night you know people can come out with all kinds of stories um when they're in the counseling situation and they may think they're the only person in the whole world who's ever had this situation um to them they're shocking situations but because we've heard it over and over and over again you know we can assure them don't worry you're not the only person in the world this happens to many kind of people and so those being pressed down that's a very common one but another common one is when people are ex experienced being raped in the night both women and men there's something raping them uh but but is an unseen presence and it's not something they can talk about they can't go and tell anybody about it um but actually there is a a spirit involved there sometimes there are spirits that attach themselves U often to women who are their who believe they're their husbands of that woman um and so you you'll often find that that woman finds it very difficult to make relationships with a men with with with a man or um or if they do the relationship breaks down often for no apparent reason um all kinds of things people would tell us in the privacy of the counseling room um believing they're the only ones who experience it and when we say don't worry you know it's a common problem then that comes as a great relief to them as well um there may be those come to us who come from cultures that are familiar with the spirit world that's straightforward as well um so people need to be able to trust you um to know that you'll believe them to know that you'll keep confidences and um that there's help involved but sometimes there's no obvious reason so I mentioned the kind of situations that can come to us um people's problems people can't progress in life just can't get on there's always something stopping me why is it what's wrong with me um horrific dreams I've mentioned about usually about blood death being pursued they're quite common dreams that are usually demon related um emotions that exed the normal so if somebody has anger which is violent you know they they just can't control their anger it's a violent anger that's we can um determine be a spirit issue um jealousy when people have an unreasonable jealousy that that is uh controlling that is uh uh you know very uh unpleasant kind of uh jealousy phobias I've mentioned already when people are afraid of things that they shouldn't be afraid of then um why are they afraid what's the cause of that fear um depression for no obvious reason now we need to understand that we have emotions God has created us human beings so we are physical we have emotions we have a soul we have a spirit and there are times when our physical body gets ill there are times when our emotions may be battered and if there's a good reason for it then we can understand that if there's been a a death in the family bement if there's a we suddenly be made redundant or some other trauma has come into our life then emotionally it's going to affect us and um and that's because we're human beings so there are emotional issues and as a consequence people may get depressed for a season you know they're unemployed and they can't get work um that's understandable but I'm talking about things that are not normal not natural things that have no obvious reason for them a person is in depression but there's no reason for them in depression um people feel suicidal but there's no reason for them to feel suicidal people want to mutilate themselves young children I know there often um there are causes for that you know there situations in their lives but self mutilation and so on feelings of suicide there was one occasion when a doctor came to us not from our church but he was a doctor and he was looking after some young women who were suffered from anorexia and bulimia you know exia where where young people they don't eat and they get thinner and thinner and they can die from that I think they can die from heart attacks all sorts of things if they don't eat properly anyway this doctor was a born again believer and he came to my wife and myself and he said look I'm looking after these young women he said but I know that anorexia is a spirit of suicide and he said can you help these young women so we went to where they were where they were being after and spoke to them and uh explained certain things and there was one young woman there who was a a born again believer but she was suffering from anorexia and she was close to the point of death and the doctor said look I've done everything for this young woman medically I there's nothing else I can do I know it's a spirit of suicide but uh can you help so um my wife spoke to this young woman and she was from a Christian home and um so so she understood what we were saying she said yeah I really I really like you to help me in this area um they didn't live locally they live some distance away so we said right then you come to one of our deliverance meetings so I remember her coming in this young woman she came in a nurse brought her in we have our deliverance meetings in this Auditorium here and I watched her walk down she was uh very thin very fragile and the nurse had to help her down in fact she was so bad that she had to have um oxygen in her she had an oxygen mask on she was breathing oxygen because she couldn't she was that bad she was literally close to death and she came down here and some of our women started ministering to her and she started being set free from Spirits and um she went back to the hospital the next month she came again but this time she didn't have the oxygen mask she was able to walk down and I don't know how many times we ministered to her on a number of occasions but she was set free and God saved her and um you know that was because of a doctor realized he said that I've done everything I can medically but this is Spirit problem and thank God that young woman was um was helped in that way so um other situations that people come to us addictions if people have addictions they can't break free from even though they try hard usually you'll find a spirit problem there bondages pornography another issue when people are caught in this you know it's so accessible isn't it even children uh on their mobile phones and unclean spirits it becomes a bondage you know open themselves up and they can't break free of it alcoholism uh Eating Disorders I mentioned gambling uh compulsive lying listlessness sometimes people have no energy for no apparent reason and uh unwanted sexual desires is another common one um people who don't buy the being told that they're born this way um and they want to be set free you we' have people come to us who desperate and thank God God sets them free um in this way um sicknesses that have no medical explanations I mentioned this before a number of women who've had miscarriages very distressful 12 weeks 16 weeks they always lose their baby they've come we've discerned that it's actually a spirit of death working here and so we've cast out the spirit of death and then um they've gone on to get pregnant have a baby we've dedicated the babies in the church and that's a great joy but um again you know when the doctors can't find any medical reason now thank God for our doctors and uh our nurses we thank God for all they do but we're talking about things that are not MediCal here right so people come and they tell you their problem so you're listening to them now um I then start to ask them I don't say to them actually you've got demons you need to be set free I don't do that for two reasons one is if I'm right and they don't believe me it's going to mess them up if I'm wrong and they do believe me it's going to mess them up so so I don't I don't say that um what I want to do as I'm counseling people I want them to come to a realization themselves and for them to identify the problem themselves so that we can help them so this is what I'm doing I'm just listening to their problems they're telling me these things so if I hear things that I know are Deliverance issues I I register that in my mind and then I start asking them questions so um I want to I want to find out are there any have there been any entry points in their lives any that they've been involved in that is a possible demonic entry point now question is do we need discernment to know these things well discernment uh the Discerning of spirits is one of the gifts of the holy spirit great gift to have very important in the church but it's it's helpful but it's not essential because if you just ask people questions you can find out very easily if the issues are Spirit related or not um so just observing people and answering asking and answering questions very quickly you'll get to know if it's a situation or not so I asked them um having heard their problem registering in my own mind this is a delance issue I then ask them certain questions I asked them about their background what how did you become a Christian what were the circumstances you becoming Christian how what were you doing before you were a Christian um what were you involved in uh have you ever been involved in any occult activities or uh being to a fortune teller or anything like that what was your life like before that has there ever been any trauma in your life um have you been abused or what have you um what was your did you have another religion before you came to Christ what what religion was it how was it a religion that woried I would be there knowing if it was Hinduism uh or Buddhism or those kind of religions I would know then if they were involved in heavily involved in those religions that they were worshiping Spirits as a consequence um and then I may ask about their parents were your parents ever involved in these things were your grandparents ever involved in these things now I'm not specifically saying to them about demons I'm just asking questions um generally and I'm trying to work out if there's an entry point if there an obvious entry point something that they've been involved in that I know that would lik to be an entry point where Spirits came into their life and often when you talk to people you will discover those entry points but sometimes you don't you know you talk to them and you can't find any particular reason from what they're saying that um that there is a reason but as I mentioned very often generational Spirits are the situations even if they've never personally been involved so if I'm listening to them and I I hear the experiences they've been having I know it's a delance issue but now I need then to explain it to them how do I explain it to them um in a way that they will understand and cooperate not be intimidated or threatened but um to to want to be set free and to um be willing to do so well having listened to them I'll start explaining to them and this is how I explain things I'll say to them I want to tell you a few things that you'll be familiar with but please be patient with me um because I've the purpose of me saying it so what I'll do then I'll go back to um I'll start at the beginning of creation I'll say when God started to create the world first of all he created the Angelic world and the reason he created the Angelic world was so that they could love him and he could love them God is a god of love and so he created all the Angelic World um but the the thing about true love is that you have to have free will because you can't force someone to love you that wouldn't be true love so he had to give the Angels Free Will and the problem with free will is that you can use it for good or you can use it for bad and the Bible indicates to us that there was a time in the spirit world when some of the Angels led by uh Lucifer decided to Rebel use their free will to rebel against God the moment they did that they ceased to be perfect um they were separated from God and God cast them out of heaven and then I'll say you know how the Bible Begins the beginning of the Bible begins with the beginning of the human creation God created humans for the very same reason God is love he created us so that we could love him and he could love us but again he had to give us free will because without free will you can't have true love and of course you'll know I'll say to them that the beginning of the Bible how it tells us that um our original ancestors used their free will to Rebel against God the moment they did that they were separated from God sin entered their body um there was a separation between them and God and um we know the whole Bible is the story of Salvation through Christ how God sent Jesus to save us from our fallen condition so I say then what it means then is that in the world that we live in there's the physical world that we're familiar with but there's also a spirit world and that spirit world comprises good angels and it comprises fallen angels and what the Bible shows us is that um the Fallen Angels hate God they hate his creation that's human beings particularly ha his church and they will do all they can to oppose God and to oppose his creation and they seek to do harm to people and um one of the things they want to do is that to create harm is um well they deceive so I'll talk about the different religions I've talking about how they deceive through religion through ult practices and uh if they've been involved in any of those things I might just explain how it works um and what they're doing is they're deceiving people because they want to take them away from a true knowledge of Christ salvation in Christ they want to harm them and the ultimate goal is to try and take as many people to hell with them as possible because there is no forgiveness for them and one of the things that they seek to do to try to harm people is to enter into human beings enter into human bodies but I'll explain to them normally the human body is not possible for a spirit to enter into unless it has a an access point A Reason um an opportunity to enter into it and um so I may explain then about you know we have a natural barrier unless we open a window or a doorway into our life um and I'll probably read Deuteronomy 189 to13 that we read earlier on where God said to the children of Israel don't do any of these practices um and um explain those sort of things so I'll explain then that uh there maybe certain entry points that can occur and as I'm going along I'm saying to them does this make sense to you and uh you know or is it you know do you understand does it make sense and and always people say yes i' I found it makes sense so then I'll explain to them how who Jesus is and most times they' be a born- again believer but I'll explain who again just to remind them how Jesus came into this world and through his death and Resurrection he enables to have salvation uh through faith in Christ um and all the benefits that come from salvation um but I'll explain that it doesn't automatically solve the problem of uh if spirits come into a person um that needs to be dealt with um through a specific Ministry and I'll explain to them that um it what happens when we give our life to Christ is that we come as we are Jesus saves us we as we are thank God for that but we bring into our Christian Life any Spirit problem that um is there and it needs to be dealt with thank God through the cross all our needs are met Jesus gave his authority to the church to um to set people free in this way and I'll explain then the Great Commission of the church and how um he's he's commissioned the church to set people free from any spiritual bondage I never use the word demon possession I always talk about people being troubled by spirits and so then I'm talking this way and I'm asking people does this make sense to you and I've never once had somebody say no I don't understand at all uh people always say yes and then I say to them is there anything that I've spoken about that you feel relates to you is there anything that uh you know you you can identify with and very often you know people say to me do you know what I am so relieved that I can understand what my problem is that's the most common reaction I get when I explain it this way um I'm so relieved that I can understand I've got a problem and I can see there's an answer to it because before I couldn't see an answer to it and then I'll explain to them then about about deliverance and once they've understood and what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to get them to draw their own conclusion that this is their problem and they want help so I'll explain everything about it I will not say you need you've got demons within you you need to be set free but when I explain it to them in this way um they say yeah i' I realize I've got a problem I really like help so then I'll explain to them about um deliverance and um as I say the most common reaction is people is relief At Last I know why I'm going through these experiences I know um how to get help and so they understand the problem so I think it's just a simple thing thing of explaining to people without any drama without any you know being melodramatic but just explaining this is how life is you know this is life this is what the Bible teaches this is how we can get into the problem thank God the cross of Jesus we can have all our needs met and so I'll then go on to explain to them about the three areas that can hinder Deliverance biblical areas that will hinder prayers generally but Deliverance in particular so I'll explain to them about Sin as we've looked at already I'll explain about unforgiveness which we've looked at already and uh I'll take often take time to explain that quite clearly um and I explain about any objects in their possession now sometimes people have objects in their possession that can be very valuable um gold jewels or such like um they know there's an occultic connection with them so they they say to me what shall I do with them I never take responsibility for their actions so what what do you think you should do with it I should get rid of it should I sell it or should I throw it away again I will not take responsibility for people's actions what do you think you should do it cuz if I say to them well you should throw it away and later they come back and say well it's worth £3,000 and you I won't take that responsibility it's their responsibility you know the problem do you want to be set free is it worth to you losing that um it's up to you you make the decision your choice you have to deal with it um so I don't make decisions for people I tell them the problem I tell them the issues and then I call them to draw their own conclusions and do you know I I don't ever remember anybody having explain this to him saying no I don't want to do that um usually when people understand the problem because they've come to you because they've got an issue that they won't deal dealt with that um they'll want to go through the whole process so um sin unforgiveness removal of occultic objects um and as I've mentioned maybe they'll have to go home and pray about unforgiveness that's fine take as long as you like I'll tell them because the important thing is that is you get it right don't try and Rush this because if you do it's not going to work or if it does it's not going to work for long um so um you go home and and deal with that with God and um you know sometimes on two occasions we've had both women in in this case on two occasions we've had women come to us and with a particular problem and they've each said separately you know they didn't know each other I have fasted for 40 days and 40 nights for this problem and still it's with me um and so when we explain all these things and say well actually great to fast for 40 days um but actually you didn't need to not for this issue um although fasting preparation is often a helpful thing as well but um you know when people understand um they they try to deal with prayer prayer is good try to deal with fasting fasting is good but if it isn't directly dealt with then they can still carry the problem through so often then we find people have great relief um and then the the next thing that we would do is explain what happens at the Deliverance meeting and and our last session and next session rather I'll explain the practicalities of what we do so I want them to know in advance so that when they come they you know they're not taken by surprise they know what they're what they're going to what's going to happen so I'll explain that in advance so that um when they come they should be ready we've gone through the hindrances everything uh they're ready we're ready so when they come for deliverance the actual Ministry time should be successful every time because we've because we've identified all the problems um and that's what we find vast majority of cases people will be set free once they come occasionally there won't be but I'll come to that next time um and then I'll give them that little leaflet that I mentioned earlier on how to keep your deliverance take this home read it and um stay close to God right so that's how we councel people and by that time then we've next thing we say is come to our deliverance meeting we have them every month we always have them on the third Saturday of the month so it's uh 11:00 so they always know when they are and um they're all ready to go so next session I'll talk about the actual Del Ministry itself uh meeting itself