Transcript for:
KRDay172024

e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e now yeah e you e oh no okay e e unmuted [Applause] hey hey hey all persons have any business before The Honorable Beverly koni Justice of the North Fork Superior Court in for the county of nor you are near give your attendance you shall be heard God save the Comm of Massachusetts courot is now open you may be [Music] seated 22117 the Commonwealth versus Karen Reed can I have Council identify themselves for the record Adam L for the Comm good morning your honor good morning Mr L morning your honor Laura mfin for the good morning Miss mlin good morning Mr Jackson good morning Miss little good morning good morning Miss tetti good morning Miss Reed good morning J so I have to ask you those same three questions were you all able to follow my instructions and refrain from discussing this case with anyone since we left here on Wednesday everyone said yes and know it affirmatively were you also able to follow the instructions and refrain from doing any independent research or investigation in this caseone said yes and noted affirmatively did anyone happen to see hear or read anything about this case since we left everyone said no thank you all right Mr L your next witness please yes may we approach just briefly my apologies e e e e Please Mr lowy yes you're on the call call Mr Brian with the the court jury in the case here the truth the whole truth and nothing the truth so Health you yes I do thank you good morning morning come here good [Music] morning anytime you're ready Mr L thank your honor uh good morning sir good morning could you please state your name and spell your last name for the jur my name is Brian Higgins hi GG i ns and uh where do you live sir Constable County Massachusetts and how long have you lived there I've owned that property since approximately 2018 and uh do you work sir I do what do you do for I'm a special agent with the United States Department of Justice Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco firearms and explosives and uh how long have you been doing that just over 15 years now so prior uh to that uh prior to appointment with the ATF what if any other uh positions uh what what did you do for work before that I was a lieutenant with the Cambridge fire department and how long uh were you a lieutenant with the Cambridge fire department I was a lieutenant probably for about eight years uh total I was with Cambridge approximately 15 years now at some point uh did you reside in the town of Ken I did and uh when was that sort of what year to what year I think that um it was shortly after my sister passed away so it was probably 2017 I purchased that house and I sold it in uh January of 2022 and you recall was that early January late January onor about January 5th and when you sold that property um did you move down to barnable County or did you live uh somewhere else as well um for a period of time I rented an in-law apartment in West Roxbury and I had my property on cape card as well and that in-law property in uh West Roxbury that was in 2022 as well yes now sir if I could turn your attention to uh January 28th 2022 into January 29th of 2022 you recall those dates yes U do you recall what days of the week those were I believe the 28th was uh Friday Friday and the 29th was a Saturday if I could take you back just at least a day or so before that um on specific of the 28th on the 28th where were you on that date initially New York City and why were you in New York City sir I was for I I was in New York City for the funeral services of offic of MOA and Rivera who killed in the line of duty and uh fair to say there was a large contingent of of law enforcement there yes including several people from Massachusetts yes and uh when did you go down to New York I believe it was the 27th of February might have been Thursday so was there a wake and a funeral there was a wake in the funeral um some people went to the wake some people went to the funeral there was services in in in over those couple of days and you went to the funeral on the 28th is that correct yes um and at some point um do you make your way uh from New York City back towards Massachusetts on the 28th yes and do you recall about what time of day that was late morning possibly and why is it that you were coming back on the 28th specifically the anticipation of a a blizzard and uh how did you um you drove is that correct I drove my government vehicle down to New York for the services and uh what kind of of government vehicle was it that you drove down and back that was a Dodge Ram pickup now on the way back uh Co if anyone came with you for the ride back from New York City to Massachusetts Brian Elbert Kevin Elbert and um Eddie Hernandez and uh who are they to you and what if any relationship do they have to to your work in law enforcement well for first and foremost they're all friends um Kevin Albert is a detective with the Canton Police Department Brian Elbert is a was a sergeant detective with the Boston Police Department um Eddie Hernandez also a detective with the Boston Police Department and how long had you known uh each of these individuals so out of the group Eddie Hernandez would be the person that I knew the longest I had worked with him back in the early 90s at uh the Mass General um then it would probably be Brian Albert um I may have had some contact with him when I was on the Cambridge fire department assigned to the fire investigation unit um and then Kevin Albert would be the probably the last in the three that uh I knew now speaking to uh the Canon police department at that time um as far as your assignment went uh with work um where was it that you worked out of or or where was sort of your base of operation sort of Canton PD I had an office there and how was it that you uh that you came to have an office in c p um that relationship was through Chief burkowitz um born through a tragedy when my sister passed away uh we became friends and uh he offered up the space cuz I had I had also moved there so it was it it was close it was a jumping off point and uh were were you the only federal agent that had space within the can police CL I was the only one that had an office I I believe it was an HSI agent that might have had some access there uh to come in hook up his computer and stuff and there was also an MBTA police detective Transit police detective who also had access there but I was really the only one that maintained a desk so to speak and as far as your work or or familiarity with work as far as federal law enforcement officers is that abnormal to have access to a local PD or or have an officer desk there I'll allow it no um it's not abnormal um to have space within a department that you you know you work closely with now as far as the the ride back is concerned uh when you um drive from New York City back to Massachusetts about how long a drive was that so typically it'd be a I'd say like a 4-Hour ride depending on uh traffic um this was longer and I would also factor in the the the fact that we stopped in eight on the way back and when you arrive back to Massachusetts where specifically in Massachusetts is it that you first go so the the first place that we went was um a Boston Police Department District in um Charlestown where Brian Albert and Annie Hernandez had parked their vehicles now as far as you know did they had they driven down to New York City or how would they come to be in New York City if you know I I believe that Brian Albert Eddie Hernandez and Kevin Albert all uh flew down to New York and uh they drove back with you because of the storm is that fair to say yes now after um dropping them off there where did you go from there I went back to the Canton Police Department where I dropped off um Kevin Albert um and then switch vehicles got into my Jeep Wrangler and I traveled up to the hillside in Canton now as far as traveling up to the hillside in Canton who if anyone uh did you have plans with or who if anyone did you coordinate with as far as going to the hillside Brian Elbert agreed to uh to meet me there and as far as uh switching from your government vehicle to a personal vehicle is that correct yes and and why did you do that before going to the hillside because I was technically no no longer on duty so to speak even though I had been at a funeral but you know I knew I would be consuming alcohol and we have a policy against that now as far as Vehicles related to you uh whether they be personal work and and the can PD how many vehicles did you have with that location uh so I would have had my government truck that I parked there um I would have had a surveillance vehicle that I parked there and um at times it would sometimes flip in and out between a pickup truck that I had and the Jeep itself and uh the Jeep uh that you were driving that night can you describe the Jeep sort of what it looked like what kind of Jeep it was so it's a uh 2011 Jeep Wrangler grain color and at the time that I was driving it on the 28th and the the 29th the next day it had a plow on it and the plow that you had to fix to the Jeep Wrangler is that um how how big a plow are we talking about if I was to guess it was probably 6 feet 8 Ines they I believe they make them in in two uh formats 68 and I think 72 but I believe I have the smaller blade on that jeep and um how often would you have was that like a year round thing or how often uh when when about would you have that that plow fixed to the Jeep inclement weather or impending in inclement weather and is that something that you uh used as far as what if any use did you put the the uh plow on the front of the Jeep to help family and friends clear the property at the cape I had used it when I had the in Canton and uh so you go uh to the hillside um do you know about what time it was that you got there no again it would have been after I dropped off Kevin Albert um definitely would have been dock at that time and um the hillside is that a establishment that you're familiar with you had been there before yes and about how long was it after you arrived that Brian albertt arrived he shortly thereafter probably cuz he was he was I had traveled back um dropped the vehicle off he he may have even beat me there because I I went to the station and dropped Kevin off but I don't think it was contemporaneous but it was it was in close proximity and uh once you got to the hillside how long were you there and how long was Mr Albert there so I had something to eat I had something to drink um the approximate time um maybe an hour or so and then Brian left before me I remained he left and if you know about how long before you left was it that that Brian Albert left can you repeat that again sure Brian Albert left before you correct yes about how long before you left was it that Brian Albert left maybe 15 minutes and uh you had some drinks at the hillside is that correct I did and do you recall what you drank that night usually what I drink all the time Jameson and ginger and as far as where Mr Alber was going what if any conversation did you have about that he had told me that he was going down to the waterfall barring Grill which is in K Center and that um he'd be meeting his his his wife and some family and maybe some other people and you invited to uh to come along yes now the waterfall that's an establishment you're familiar with you've been there previous times as well yes and with respect uh to this evening so you leave from the Hillside and you you go directly to the waterfall yes and uh if you know about what time was it that you got to the waterfall again it was dark it could it could have been around now in in the area 9:00 and when you get to the waterfall do you recall where in relation to the waterfall you you parked a Jeep at that time no um so you come in to the waterfall and and where do you go uh I went to a Ser I saw Brian and his family and it was a series of um high tops and I proceeded to the high tops where where they were now with respect to uh to Brian Albert um how would you describe sort of your relationship around this time of January 2022 he's a good friend uh he's a coworker I had been working closely with his um his unit um that I'd say he was a good friend and through that sort of work and your friendship were you familiar with his his family as well yes and so when you came over to the area where uh Brian Albert was uh his wife was there correct yes and who offended anyone else uh was there that you were familiar with or that you knew when you came so it would have been um Ryan Elbert it would have been Nicole believe Caitlyn was there uh Brian Caitlyn Elbert Brian's daughter um Chris elott his wife Julie um there might have been another couple Matt mccab and Jim mccab and as far as the maves were concerned were you how familiar were you with that casually now at some point you come in you join the group is that correct yes and how would you describe sort of throughout the entirety of the evening or your time at the waterfall how would you describe sort of the the mood or the demeanor of of the group within the bar it was a good time um no arguments or anything like that that you observe from anybody that was present to no it was a good time and there was a band and if you recall about what time was it that you left I would say right around when the band was wrapping up so it was probably closer to midnight now prior to that at some point uh between the time that you arrived and the time that the band's wrapping up and you're preparing to leave who if anyone else uh that you were familiar with uh came into the waterfall John o'keef and the defendant and uh just be clear when you're referencing the defendant what is what is her name Karen Reed and just to be clear for the records uh do you see Miss Reed in the courtroom today I do could you identify just as where she's seated or an article of clothing that she's saring she seating she seated between attorneys Jackson and janetti just ask a record reflect identification of the defendant by the witness yes now with regard to Mr o'i starting there as far as how how long had you known Mr o'i maybe a year a little over a year and do you recall uh how it was or or where it was that uh that you f met first met Mr oi I believe it was actually the Hillside and how often would it be that you uh that you saw Mr o'keef or or socialize with Mr o'keef I would I would see him at the at the Hillside and um as far as were you familiar with what Mr o'keef did for work yes and what were you familiar with him doing for work he was a Boston police officer and uh with reference uh to miss reene how long had you known the defendant it would be about the same time and or as long as and so roughly um what was your understanding as far as the relationship between Mr o'keef and and Miss Reed they were dating now with reference to um occasions as far as would there be occasions U typically where you would see Mr o'keef without Miss Reed or you would see Miss Reed Without Mr O'Keefe or were they essentially together when you saw I would say more often than not they'd be together and uh did you have occasion to see them at other sort of social settings outside of the hillside I went over the house um one time before the end of a Patriots game um so if I could take you back um let me ask you this as far as uh through how would you describe your relationship with John O I considered him a friend and how would you describe uh your relationship with Miss re I considered her a friend as well um now through the course of of time that you knew them did you have occasion to um get their contact information and have communication with each of them uh through their phones I had John's tele John and I had exchanged telephone numbers um and with reference to those Communications uh were they texts were they phone calls or or VAR oh they would be text and as far as the text Communications that you had you received this cont information you texted someone replied how did you know that that was John O'Keefe that was replying to you well I had him saved in my phone John o'keef I I don't know exactly where he gave me his phone number but I I knew it was him now on that evening uh taking you back to the waterfall uh January 28th into January 29th uh do you know about what time it was that Mr o'keith and the defendant came into the waterfall it would have been I think between like 11 and closing and uh do you recall sort of where you were situated in in reference to the table when they came in so I I I think I was at the high top bar area clo the high top in the bar area closest to the bar and uh when Mr o'keith and Miss Reed came into uh the waterfall uh what if anything did You observe uh where did they go when when they first came in so when they F first came in um I believe they may have initially went in like veed off in different directions um I recall that she opened her coat and took a drink out of it a GL I should say a glass and what if any observations did you make of the glass that Miss Reed took out of a coat it was a tall it was a tall glass um it looked like a clar liquid in there and at some point did you uh come to find out where uh Mr o'keith and Miss Reed had been prior to coming to the waterfall s are you familiar with another establishment in Canon called CF mccarth yes is that a place that you've been to before yes now as far as the glass uh that you saw uh with reference to the waterfall Andor CF McCarthy what if any observations did you make of it well that it wasn't from the waterfall and and what makes you say that well she walked in with it and took it out of her coat um but it wasn't consistent with the type of glasses that the the waterfall had and so let me just ask one further question in regards to that so when you say it wasn't consistent what was it about it that made it inconsistent with glasses from the waterfall I believe it was a tall a tall glass and kind of um like bubles on the side of it so to speak like the the design now after you make those observations uh at some point over the course of the time that you were at the waterfall and they were there as well then you have occasion to uh have a conversation with Mr oi I did I don't know that if it was initially when he first came in um but I I I I did have a brief conversation with him as to the content I don't recall what that was just small talk there to say greetings and with regard to miss Reed during your time at the waterfall what if any conversation did you have with her I did not have any now at this point in time on uh this date did you have uh Miss Reed's cell phone information I did not um at the time that you were at the waterfall no you recall sending a text or oh I'm I'm sorry can you repeat that question again um at this time I I know we've jumped around a couple days but at this time that you at the waterfall on the 28th or the 29th did you have Miss Reed's cont yes I did okay and at some point uh over the course of the evening while you were at the waterfall did you send a text to Miss re I did and do you recall what the substance of that text was I think it was something like um well and you recall U me as far as that text message or why you would sent that to to be honest with you it was I I guess you could view it as a flirty text now around midnight or so when you leave the waterfall uh well I'm sorry let me take it back just one step um at some point over the course of the evening while you're at the waterfall what if any discussion is is there around the table as far as next steps or where to go from there well there was talk at the table I think initially about going back to Chris Albert's Pizza Shop to have some food and drink and at some point that transitioned into going back to Brian Albert's house and uh as far as the invitation to go back to Brian Albert's house uh was that something that was extended to the entirety of the table it it's I I took it as an open invitation to the people that were together at the table yes and uh Mr Albert's house is that somewhere that you had been to before I had been there uh the twins graduation party which was out side in the backyard and I think I may have dropped him off on one occasion I may have dropped something in his mailbox but those would be the only other times um and are you familiar at least now with with the address and sort of where you were going did you know where you going that night I knew where I was going yes and the address was a 34 fair viw that that is correct yes and um about what time about midnight or so when you're when you're leaving um who if anyone was leaving uh the bar around the same time I mean I think pretty much everybody was wrapping up and leaving uh I know that I I beat Brian and Nicole back to the house now as far as the time at the waterfall um with reference to either Mr O'Keefe or Miss Reed uh what if any observations did you make in regard to what they were drinking that night I think John was having bear is his typical what I would see him with and um the defendant had you know classes and you recall her ever at any point that you were there if you recall uh drinking out of a glass different than the one she took out of her coat when she first arrived I don't recall um now you drove from the waterfall to Fairview Road about how long a drive was that probably a few minutes but the weather was you know this I remember when I came out I put the wipers on there was some snow on the ground but it was the type of snow where the roadway was still black at the time but because it was being driven on but the sidewalk had a light coating and you drive over to the home and uh you mentioned that you beat Mr Albert there is that correct I did and so with regard to the home when you get there what what what did you do when you got there well I was kind of being a smart ass and I dropped the plow and I did a little sweep of the driveway and then I got out of the driveway cuz I didn't want to get uh blocked in and I parked and uh do you recall where you parked in relation to the house I Do by the mailbox U your honor with court permission if I could uh publish what's been marked as exhibit 72 okay and uh Mr do you recognize what it up on the screen there I do and what do you recognize that 34 Fe of VI yes cor just press so Mr Higgins with that laser pointer now in your hand if you could uh direct the jury's attention to if you in this Photograph where you Parts your Jeep so the the back end of the Jeep would have been right around the mailbox itself and the edge of the driveway is right there I I wanted to make sure that I was not blocking the driveway or blocked in and uh so the front of your vehicle would have been pointed in which direction I believe that'd be going towards Chapman Street and so this part of your vehicle was closest to um the house so Drive side or the pass side so the passenger side would be um closest to the house you park along the front of the house sort of with trap correct yes you can take that down thank you uh so you arrive at the house uh you do um as far as the the maneuver with the with the plow in the driveway then you park the vehicle and where is it that you go from there uh into the house and when you get into the house uh who if anyone is is there or who if anyone is is coming in with you so I might have been there well it was about the same time that Brian and Nicole showed up I don't know if they entered before me or I entered after them I entered the house what I recollect is that Brian Albert Jr is sitting uh kind of at the island or in the Island area and I believe he was flanked by at least one female possibly two one on each side and either of those uh females did you did you know them did you recognize them did you know who they were I may have recognized one I've seen before but I didn't know them and just lastly before we go back into the house when you park um when you do the the first plowing in the driveway and then parking um did you see Mr Albert arrive at the house around that time what when I pocked the the Jeep yeah well yes I you so I made the sweep and as I could see the vehicle coming up I made the sweep got out of the way so he could park so we had parked in the driveway around the time that you're parking on the street yes okay um and so when you come to the house and and you see the people that you've described where were they situated within the house so I came through what I would call like a Breezeway door so there's a there's a front door to the residents there's the garages and in between there is a um like a Breezeway door I came in through there and it's kind of like you're in the kitchen I think there's like an island so to speak you may be able to sit at it and they were he would Brian El Jr was right there and again flanked by one if not two females now at some point uh after your arrival who if anyone else uh that you were familiar with came by the house believe it was Jenna Matt mccave you know about how long it was after you were arve that they arve no I don't know a pro I mean I don't think it was much longer people started you know float in at that point and uh Beyond uh sort of the the kitchen area that you were describing before where else did you go within the house that night at one point briefly Brian Elbert showed me some photographs family I believe primarily it might have been of his son who had recently been in the Marine Corps gone into I should say and uh do you recall or why was he showing you specifically like those photographs of of his son of the Marine Corps because he's proud now as let me ask you this as far as yourself Andor Mr Albert what if any familiarity or what if any background do do you or Mr Al wouldt have with regard to the military ran was in the Marine Corps I was in the Army um now this period um that you're talking about in in the other room um about how long a period was that it was it was brief and Beyond yourself and Mr Albert was there anyone else uh from the group that you described that was in the room at the same time as as you and Mr Albert I don't think so I think Nicole may have popped in for a second but I'm not 100% positive on that and as far as do you know approximately what time you left uh the house on on Fairview that evening I'd guess to made it was anywhere between 12:30 and 1:00 but I'm not 100% positive so relatively short period of time is that correct it it was a short period of time um I knew kind of from the onset when I got in there it probably wasn't going to be a long time because I'm not a Beer Drinker and that's what they had so I was probably one of the first people to leave now for that entirety of the time that you were there did you go anywhere else within the home beyond what you've described as far as the kitchen in the living room no did you go upstairs at any time no did you go downstairs in any sort of basement area at any time no and when you exited the home uh do you recall which of the two doors that you described that you would have exited from the same door I came in the Breezeway now during the time that you were there um similar what I asked about the waterfall how would you describe sort of the mood or or demeanor within the home it was it was fine there I mean everybody was happy and um at any point in time uh while you were at 34 Fair View do you uh any of the people that were in the house do you recall seeing them go outside of the house and come back or anything like that not I can't say definitively I saw anybody come in or out of the house but I think somebody might have been in the process of of maybe being picked up and not anybody that you were super familiar with is that fair to say I think it was one of the females now with respect um to the front of the house at any point in time that you were inside of the house uh was your attention drawn or did you look out the windows or the door or anything like that no and when you were in the kitchen area do you recall uh sort of how you were positioned in relation to uh the windows facing the front of the house so I would have had my back to that area yeah back back my back to the the door that I came in and specifically with reference to uh Mr o'keith and Miss Reed at any point in time did you see either of them uh inside the house or outside of the house or around the house or anywhere around 34th fav rad absolutely not no and um at any point in time um over the course of the evening what if any communication or or text or anything did you send to either of those two people while you were at the house on Fair while I was at the house I I I think I shot a text just to John where are you I think that's what it was and uh if you recall did you ever get a response to that text no there was no response so after you left the waterfall uh when you left the waterfall was Mr o'keef and Miss uh Reed the defendant still there I can't say 100% no um but after you left the waterfall uh at any point in time did you uh speak to text with or communicate in any way shape or form or see in any way shape or form either Mr O'Keefe or Miss Reed well again the only person I I shot the text to while I was at the house was John but after I left the waterfall I I never saw John o' ke for the defendant again now when you left from the residence uh and again you're not sure what time that was between 12:30 and 1:00 CL and do you recall who amongst the group was still at the house at the time you left I think I was probably the first person to leave so all of the other people that you've described would have still been in the house when you exited from the house yes um now you indicated earlier that you're familiar with uh Mr Albert and his family to some extent correct yes he been to his house for a graduation party for his twins yes through that at any point in time uh prior to this date did you become aware or familiar with uh Brian Albert's nephew Colin Albert I know the name and I know that he is one of the sons of uh Chris Albert are you familiar with what he looks like if he walked in here right now I wouldn't know you would not know no um and Beyond the people that you've described as far as seeing at 34 Fairview Road fair to say you don't recall anybody being introduced or identified as calling out no now you exit uh from the home through theot Breezeway door and go over to your vehicle is that right yes and from the time that you would enter the home to the time now that you're exiting from the home what if any change did you note as far as the weather just that the the the weather was getting worse the snow was picking up and as far as the accumulation that you had described before uh as far as you could still see the black top and all that when you left the waterfall what was it like when you came out of the house again I I I think that the streets that weren't being traveled it was there was snow on them there was coverage and as far as the front lawn area of the house at 34 Fairview Road what if any observations did you make of that can you rephrase that sure as far as the snow was concerned was the snow sticking to or was it accumulating on the lawn as well I I believe so I mean I walked through I mean when I walked from the Breezeway to to the Jeep there was snow on the ground now the front yard area of the house is that something that you were looking at with any particularity or or or taking note of as you were walking your Jeep down the driveway no it was a long day we had been on the road I just was looking to get home and uh so when you get uh to your Jeep uh can you describe to the jury sort of how it was that you pulled away or what if anything you recall about that process so I got in the Jeep you know started it up may have looked at my phone uh put it in drive and started to pull away and then I'm like put the plow up so I reached you know I was I I moved a couple of feet I heard it I heard it grinding on the ground reached for the device called the fish tick picked it up lifted the plow and then drove away and the plow that you had it fixed for the front of the Jeep um how is I think you've talked a little bit about it but how is that sort of controlled and and who controls that so the operator controls it the mechanism to control it again is called a fish stick it's it's on a cord and it plugs in under the dashboard I I you know I reach down to find out I don't know if it was on the floor or between the seats but it's not like a joystick that's attached actually to the dashboard so some sort of hydraulic system is that correct I yes it's a hydraulic based now in addition to moving it sort of up and down um is there any other way that you can manipulate the the blade as far as that switch is concerned yeah so if uh I would generally if I'm driving around town and and not worried about the vehicle heat heating up I just lift the the plow off a couple feet off the ground um if I was on the highway I would tilt it to get air flow and as far as height is concern for that plow if you were to lift it all the way to the top what if any impact would that have with reference to uh your line of sight or visibility through the windshield zero so even if it's raised all the way as far as it can go you can still see over the top of the blade yeah I I it it if it come if it comes even with the hood of the Jeep I I'd be surprised um so you pull forward a couple of feet and then you lift it about how high did you lift it when you're pulling when you stop and then lift up probably like a foot or two and as far as um following that you pull away from the house is that right correct and as you're pulling away from the house uh where is your attention drawn or or what if anything did you see as far as when you're pulling away from the house wasn't drawn to anything I just drove away and uh when you drove away um again during that process did you see anything outside of the house that that Drew concern or your attention or anything like that no now as far as when you get out to your vehicle and you're driving away um were there any other vehicles on the street that you saw in the area of of the residents at 3430 I didn't see any and do you recall whether or not there were any uh tire tracks in the snow or anything that you saw when you came out to the vehicle if you recall I do not recall now you leave The Residence at 34 Fairview and and where did you go from there I went back to the C police and why was it that you went back to the can police station well we had traveled down for the for the services for those police officers and we anticipated staying the following day we had I think I had said that we left the day earlier so I had left um a key to the surveillance vehicle on top of my desk so that somebody could move the vehicle because some of the a lot of times Chief ertz would get after me as a courtesy I was parking Vehicles there sometimes my personal but primarily my Works my work vehicles and um one thing he asked me just leave the vehicles in the middle of the parking lot that so that snow could be cleared so the reason for heading back there was to move those Vehicles because if I didn't do it then I would have had to get up early and do it and I also know they plow through the night so that would be the reason for heading back before we get a little more into that as far as the funeral that you went to are these people that you knew or had met were familiar with no um so you get back to the police station and um with regard to the can police station um what if any access did you have to the can PD and and sort of how did you how did you facilitate that so I would describe it as a proxy Cod the doors have Cod readers generally in the parking lot when you when you come into the police station you drive in Sally ports are off to your right hand side there's there's two uh bay doors there there's a pass through door and then over in the corner would typically we I would I would bury both vehicles so if I was typically it would be my my my take-home pickup truck that I described earlier and it would be the surveillance vehicle but if I had that could be swapped out with one of my personal vehicles I would leave a personal vehicle there if I took one of those two vehicles and then for me to access into the building the most direct door would be that pass through door by the sally port and S of that back back area is that typically where you would park yes and just in reference to the you talk about a surveillance vehicle that's something that you use as far as conducting surveillance and performance of your duties as a law enforcement officer yes and so fair to say that would not be something you would want to park like say in front of the police station no um now that path that you took is that the typical path that you would take sort of Park to the back and then cut through the sallyport into the stadi yes that's I mean that would that would be the the route that I would go and if you recall is that the route that you went on uh that particular early morning when you came back to the station I believe it is and when you come back um to the station uh and you go in you're going where are you going within the police station when you went so when well I'm going up to the I was going up to my office to to to grab the key for that surance vehicle so when you come through that pass through door at the sally port the first door would be through um the booking and the holding area that directly goes into the dispatch area but if you walk to the extreme other end uh there's there's another door on the other end common hallway uh walk down that hallway hit a set of stairs and I would I would go up that way now if I could take it back just for a second as far as when you initially walk into the the sallyport area that's a a garage basically correct yes and when you come into uh the garage um the door that that you would then enter to come into the station where is that in relation to the door that you come from the exterior how far away are the two so if you come into I guess what you're asking so if I come into the sally port immediately to the right there's the door that goes into the holding area booking area and then probably five I mean it's probably 12 feet long to get to the other door from where you're parking and where you come into the sallyport it's not like you then have to walk walk across the garage or anything like that to get to the door into the station is that correct well you do walk across the garage but it's small and when you say small about how how far you know about 12 feet maybe um and so you come into the station uh you go by the dispatch is that correct so as I'm walking down the hallway dispatch would be off to the right it's uh a wooden door with two glass panes and as far as uh the Canon police station is concerned are you familiar with or were you aware at the time that there is sort of security and cameras and such around the station yes and you're aware that those cameras record is that correct yes and uh are you aware of any records that are generated as far as your key card access when you go through a certain door at certain time well I've never seen those records but I it's my understanding they they it tracks access access control and uh did you happen to go by the dispatch area specifically and so you know who was working there that night newly promoted sagin good I believe probably probably he was on midnights do you have any specific recollection of seeing him there that evening when or that early morning when you came by I believe I wave to him and as far as when you get to the police station do you have any how far drive is it from fair viw to to the police station if you know well I mean the the weather was picking up so it probably took me a little bit longer to get back but it's probably 5 10 minutes maybe now the key that you went to your office to get a key correct yes and why had you left the key to one of the vehicles in the office so as I stated earlier I anticipated not even being back in Massachusetts knew the storm was coming didn't know how bad it was but I left the key on the desk to facilitate somebody being able to move that and so you go to your office you get the key and then where did you go from there I go back downstairs and I move the vehicles to the center of the pocket lot and then um at some point you leave is that correct yes do you know about how long it was uh after you moved the vehicles around that that you left can't not long but I'd be guessing if I gave you a time and so where did you go from there I went back to West Roxbury and which vehicle uh that you've described which of those Vehicles did you use to get from Canon PD to West Rock the Jeep Cherokee uh Jeep Wrangler sorry um and if you know about what time was it that you that you got home to West rockbury could have been somewhere around 202 I'm I'm not 100% positive so sometime between 1:30 and 2: a.m. is that roughly around yes um and when you uh get home uh about do you recall like what it was that you did when you got home well be it was again it was a long day we we we had traveled the traffic it just seemed like it dragged on forever but I think I did what I typically do after being out having a couple of drinks I had something else to eat and I believe I might have had another couple of drinks and either laid on the couch and or or laid on my bed um and typically I would fall asleep if I was on the couch and wake up and go into the bedroom I don't know which where what location I was in at that point now after you fall asleep at some point later on uh that morning or uh something you wake up obviously at some period correct yes and do you recall what it was that that awoke you on that morning I mean for lack of better words my phone both my work and my personal phones were blowing up they were going off and uh if you know about what time in the morning was that that probably around 6:30ish and uh who if anyone you know as far as you you looked at your phones and who if anyone was blowing up the phone who who was calling you with that well I think first it was Chief berwitz and then uh Brian Albert and you mentioned first it was Chief burwitz did you did you answer the chief's call at that time no and was that abnormal for the chief to be calling you at at that time of day no he I mean he's an early riser and typically when he was working you know again we we also had a friendship you know he he would he would call in the morning kind of like checking in with each other um so I just kind of ble like why are you calling me this early kind of just blew it off but then when I saw Brian Elbert calling me like that kind of caused me some concern because I'm like why is he calling me he's been out he was out with me all day yesterday um we we both had the same long day and I I was concerned at that point and so you answer the phone from Mr Albert is that correct yes and uh what if anything did you learn from him or or what if anything did you tell you I'm want to sustain the objection at this point um so you receive a call from him and you have some sort of conversation correct yes now prior to that from the time that you got home to the time that you to answer this call from Brian Albert um you recall uh having any phone calls or conversations with anybody uh during that time period no and specifically did you talk to Brian Albert on the phone at any point between the time you left his home and the time that you woke up the next morning to his phone call no I did not now the previous day over the course of it um you know through all waking up in New York and then driving home and going to the Hillside and going to the waterfall and going to Mr alward's House had you and Mr Albert communicated via cell phone whether it be text or or phone call at any point in time during the course of that day you mean the day before yes yes um so he was fairly recent in your contacts is that correct yes and so as far as uh that phone call that you received from Mr Albert based on whatever information that you learned from that um what did you do then I I I got dressed in went right over to the house in 34 fa View and uh when you left your house in West Roxbury and went back to 34 Fairview what were you driving at that point I was still on the Jeep Wrangler um and if you know about what time or so was it that you arrived at back at 34 Fairview late that morning maybe a little after 7 and uh when you arrive there um what have anything did you see I mean I just went into the house as far as outside of the house when you arrived there what if anything did you see outside of the house I don't recall maybe a police car I I don't remember now with regard to uh starting with the weather when you woke up and you were driving back to 34 Fairview what was the weather like at that point in reference to when you had gotten home to West rockbury the night before it was real bad um and as far as when you get to the house at 34 Fairview sometime around 7:00 a.m. or so where is it that you parked in relation of the home at that point I might have went in the driveway I don't I don't remember specifically where I parked and as far as other vehicles there how many other vehic were there more or less Vehicles there that morning than there were when you were there the night before I couldn't I couldn't say definitively and when come into the house uh who if anyone is it that you see inside the house when you get so I saw Brian I saw Nicole Brian Jr may have popped in and out of the the K same kitchen area that I was in before uh Jen and Matt McCabe and then a short time later uh Julie Albert showed up and Julie Alber when she showed up what if anything to do observe her to have with her when she showed up like box of donuts or muffins or something like that and uh as far as the house when you come in um SAR to the evening before but how would you describe sort of the mood and and demeanor of the people in the house when you arrive there later on that morning sometime around 7 or so people were pretty distraught um and did you know why they were distra because John had been founded on the lawn and is that why you had gone to the house yes and when you received that information or were informed of that um how did you receive that information or or what if any impact do that have on well objection suain you can ask it differently when did you first learn of Mr o'keef being found on the lawn at 343 during the phone call at at about 6:30 yes when uh Brian Elbert when I spoke with him and what was your reaction when you received that information it didn't make sense to me um I I couldn't do the math in my head because I know John O'Keefe and and the defendant never they never showed up it didn't make sense and from this time uh that you're you're in the house um you recall any sort of conversation about uh within the group as far as what was going on objection do you recall that there was a conversation yes I I I recall that there was conversation and it just that okay next question Mr L now from the time that you arrived there uh later on that morning about how long a period of time were you there for less than an hour and from there where did you go from there I don't know if I went back to the police station or I went to West Roxbury might have been the police station and if you went to the police station why would you have gone to the police station at that point because I was still trying to put things together in my head I was I was upset um those would be the reasons do you recall whether or not plus do you recall whether or not you were at the police station that day yes iow it yes I I I'm pretty sure I was there and uh do you know about how long you were there or about what time it was that you were there no I couldn't say specifically and after you left the police station that day where did you go from there at some point I probably went back to West rockberry um I would I don't specifically remember now um again from when you went maybe a fairly simple question but as far as you drove the Jeep Wrangler from West Roxbury back to Fairview Road that morning correct yes and then you drove that Jeep Wrangler from Fairview Road to the Ken police station at some point during the day I I believe I was in that vehicle all day now at some point a few days uh following this uh did you have occasion to meet with some troopers from the state police I did and do you recall who those troopers were troop of proa and Troop of buenik and uh were you familiar with those uh Troopers prior to that date that you met with them so I was um familiar with troa buenik um evidently I was I was reminded by troa proa that I had met him before I think I helped him on a uh a gun a gun recovery that he made but I I didn't remember him and as far as you mentioned you know sort of socializing with other officers from law enforcement had you ever socialized with either a sergeant mechanic or super Proctor before so troa Proctor no um I had seen um troa buin on a number of occasions um at the a local gym um um I had seen him one side at at I had seen him one time at the hillside I think he might have been with his child after sporting event I think I bought I said hello I bought him a drink um but I wouldn't classify that as socializing more being friendly but I also the that area of responsibility the Southshore south of Boston cape and Islands that's I was assigned to a group where I would interface with people in that area in that nalk um CPAC office would be people that over the years I've probably dealt with now when you met with him on this day do you recall specifically what day it was no um if I said February 3rd would that sound about right or or if you know it's it I would say in that area and when you met with them you had a conversation with them or an interview in regard to what had transpired on the 28th and 29th correct yes and um following sort of the substance of that interview uh what if anything did you provide the Troopers with I provided them with um text messages that I had exchanged and had on my phone with um John O'Keefe and text messages that I had exchanged with the defendant and how did you uh in what sort of format did you provide those text messages uh to the Trop well they were they were copies um and I believe that the format would be the way to categorize it screenshots and how is it that you sort of generated these from from your phone um I consulted a coworker it's also a friend and um he was a he has he has the training with the cell phones um I told him I wanted to provide these to the state police you know what is the best way that I can get them off the off my phone and provide them to law enforcement and why was it that you uh felt it was important or why is it that you wanted to to share those with the Troopers well I thought it was important because I've had communication with the both of them and um I wanted to be fully transparent now with reference to either or both of those Communications uh with Mr o'keith and Miss Reed um the material that you provided to the Troopers what if what did if anything did you do to that material before giving it to nothing so as far as the material or the text uh that you provided to the Troopers that was what was on your phone yes NOS no excising any material nothing like that before you gave it to the Troopers exactly what was on my phone I provided to them and specifically as you were providing it to them or shortly thereafter did you have a conversation with Sergeant V uh banic in reference to that very top if you recall no I don't recall do you recall him asking you anything about as far as if this was the entirety of of what you had provideed oh he so I think during the actual interview he specifically asked me of these I I would say in sumon substance he said you know is this an accurate representation has has anything been deleted and I I said no I mean as with respects to the text with the defendant from the from the from the first time that she reached out to me and texted me nothing had been deleted as far as John's text string we might have had older text strings that were deleted but that was what I gave him what I gave the troop is was exactly when I captured everything is exactly it is it was what it is what it is everything that was the on those phones was provided nothing was deleted and as far as um when you provided these sex Communications to the Troopers um um was that something that they had asked for or was that something you volunteer I volunteer I volunteered that to them and upon them sort of receiving them from you did they have further questions beyond what they had already asked you based on what you provided I believe they they got into other specific questions specifically in relation to John O'Keefe and the defendant as far as intimacy and things like that there was there was more detailed questions that follow may approach a witness yes thank you sure I'm going to show you uh two documents one is 12 pages long one is 56 pages long if you can just look at those [Music] you look up you recognize what those are sir I'm sorry could you say that sure my AP do you recognize what those are sir yes and what do you recognize those so those are what those are the two documents that I provided to the troop is during the interview and uh the shorter one who if any one is those Communications with ke and the longer one about 56 pages long or so who if any one of those Communications the defendant I approach yes [Music] almost okay so we'll do them separately please so that the first 12 page one [Music] May return both of those for yes I'm going to direct your attention first to what Mark 103 and is that uh the communications uh or text Communications that you had uh with Mr o'keef yes and Sir if I could turn your attention to uh the first um sort of content within that just in reference to uh what is the the date of of the first sort of exchange uh in these text Communications between yourself and and Mr Wednesday November 24th and in general uh can you describe for the jury what that conversation was bowed on on Wednesday November 24th he basically it's it's kind of hard to read I apologize but it looks like he he's just reached out to me uh he said what's up pel uh where are we going to hang local we are going to hang local are you drinking so he's out he's trying to see where you are and if you want to meet up yes now sir if I could direct uh your attention to the last page within those uh documents you have before you so with reference to uh there's some conversation on the bottom of that last page uh from uh January Sunday January 16th is that correct yes okay now you had mentioned uh that with respect to uh Mr o'i um you had been over his house on a prior occasion to watch the Patriots again correct yes and when was that in relation to uh this uh date that we've been talking about as far as the 28th into the 29th how long before so this it was the 16 might have been the 15th into the 16th I believe so that text on the 16th was either same day or or the day following when you had gone over there to watch Patriots game well with a yeah with a text where I asked if I if I broke his nephew's toy uh video game was would have been the next day now in reference to uh Mr o'keef you described that he was a friend of yours is that correct yes now where you you used to live in Canton uh where was that or how close was that in relation to where Mr o'keef lived on Meadows out not far at all um several blocks now prior to um you going over there for the Patriots game um at some point uh or had you been over to his home at any previous time so I reached out we had inclement weather it might have been around the beginning of January maybe 6 to 7th and I shot him a text and said um do you want me to clear the driveway for you oh using the same plow that you were talking about before you had offered to clear out his driveway yes now on this occasion that you go over there for the Patriots game prior to that um had the two of you uh had any conversation or had you been invited to to go over there with reference to football games before um yes number of times at the hillside you know I I was asked you know hey we're going to watch the last half at the house you want to come by things like that yes and had you ever taken Mr o'keef up on any of those prior invitations to come by the house and watch it no and uh so on this particular game do you recall uh why it was that you took them up on on it this time and went over well I felt bad I had never been over there I've been asked repeatedly um I knew it was probably going to be the last game for the season and I had also independently got a text of an invite from John himself and then also from the defendant on independently now in reference to you thinking it was going to be the last game of the season do you recall like was it was it regular season game playoff game who were they playing do you recall any of that I think it might have been the bills I don't I don't know if it was the playoffs or the it was just another game to me but I knew it was probably going to be the last game and so if you recall that evening about what time was it that you that you stopped by Mr O house oh it was like just before the game ended not not not long after so pretty fair pretty far into the second half of the game by the time you arrived oh yeah and in addition to Mr O'Keefe who if anyone else was was at the house when left I believe Chris Curran and his wife might have been there at one point I think maybe the wife left but he stayed I believe maybe Mr current I was never met him before I think they introduced him as Mr Karin's brother and then um John's nephew and uh I don't know if his niece was there she might have been in the other room and uh the defendant Miss Reed was she there as well yes and as far as the uh the C are concerned are are those people you're familiar with and how do you know them uh again the hillside I met them there um and I believe through John o'keef how well did you know them at that point not very well um now you mentioned that John's nephew was there had you ever met him before no and um what any interaction did you have with his with his nephew while um we pl video games together and uh so the text um if I could direct your attention back to the text Communications before you with Mr o'keef on that last page um specifically there's um text that exchange between the two of you on Sunday uh January 16th correct I see the text that's about 9:30 in the morning is that correct Mr ly on this last page which one is it one 12 or3 about the middle of the page thank you can you repeat that again I may approach the witness yes yeah I'm just it's a little difficult to read I apologize I would direct your attention to about there says Sunday January 16 you see that yes and that indicates about 9:33 in the morning yes I see it and uh if you could um read from that text exchange and if uh if you know if you can indicate sort of who's talking or who's saying um it says TF hurting like this in 10 years haha I'm not I'm not sure I'm not sure who saying that not sure who's hurting and who's saying haha well I know I was definitely hurting that morning um but I'm not sure who was saying that and uh what if any other communication is there later on in the same chain all right I I see John was it necessary to introduce Hennessy XO was I really playing video games that that would have been me and then it says I blame Karen yep and then I said please tell me I didn't break your nephew's video game if I did I'll replace it did I throw a controller or some um and then uh it says I don't think so WTF I'm hurting how can you guys not be still in bed is that the end of that and then the conversation it appears to be yeah yes then the next conversation begins on uh what's indicated as Saturday 12:20 a.m. is that correct yes and is it your recollection that that was January 29th yes and is that the message that you sent to Mr O'Keefe while you were in the residents at 34 fairv yes I said are you coming here with three followed by three question marks and again Mr o'keef based on your recollection and based on the records you have before you never responded to that text is that correct that's correct and you never saw him after that correct never again no I approaches to retrieve your yes I may yes J feel free to stand up and e e e e e e e e e e e e [Music] all right so we'll be in Jesus thanks e hey there Karen Reed trial Watchers this is a law and crime legal alert Google incognito tracked users browsing data without their knowledge yep well Mast tort Alliance one of our legal sponsors is actually helping users file for compensation due to issues surrounding Google users privacy through their Incognito browser so if you've used Google incognito anytime since 2016 you can start your claim in less than 10 questions at Incognito claims.com LCL live e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e you are unmuted what is back session you may SE so while the jurors are coming in why don't I see Council e e e e e jar we appreciate your patience we actually made things easier for you so um it it was worth the time be Step Up and Mr L if if you're going to start are you going to start right with messages yes sure all right folks be mindful of the instruction I've given you on digital evidence on on um what you have to find before you consider them also I want to tell you that what you're going to hear or C um is testimony about certain statements allegedly made by the defendant um you're to view those statements solely for The Limited purpose of the defendant's State of Mind as it might go to the the nature of the relationship with John O'Keefe and potential motive okay all right Mr L go right ahead thank you may approach the witness yes for you now SE series documents 118 pages in length page number your refen on there um in general do you recognize what those are yes what do you recognize those to be text messages between the defendant Den I you on the call the move to introduce and admit as the next exhibit uh no not as the next exhibit we are going to mark that 104a thank you 104 yes 103A 103A 103 John O'Keefe's texts were 103 the so it's 104a and jurors you'll have both um exhibit 104 with you that was a little bit difficult to read um what we've taken all this time for as Council was great to work out a form that is much clearer for you to be able to read and that will be attached or right with exhibit 104 okay thank you all right Mr L thank you now Mr Higgins um first your honor may I request uh permission to publish it dra screen yes St with page number one now Mr Higgins what's up on the screen is that what you have before you as exhibit 104a yes and as you just mentioned these are text messages between yourself and uh Miss Reed is that correct yes and on what dates uh did you first uh receive any communication from this read January 12 2022 and prior to that had you had her number uh or did she have your number as as far as you aware no you had never communicated to her via cell phone or any other means prior to January 12th 2022 no I had not um so initially you received a text on that date from an unknown number is that correct yes and uh from the text before you um and what's up on the screen as far as there are gray bubbles on the left blue bubbles on the right uh which is you and which is uh the the blue bubbles would would belong to myself so the other bubbles would be Miss Reed is that fair to say yes and so that initial communication you receive on January uh 12th uh 2022 that's about 8:27 p.m. is that correct yes and what was the content of the message that you received do you want me to read it yes please hey Brian it's weed whacka and how did you respond to that question mark and if it's helpful to you you sir if you can't see the screen sort of from where you are you can read along in the the exhibit before you okay now as far as uh that communication is concerned uh is the weed whacker what if any meaning did that have to you or or so ultimately it was based off a interaction with the defendant kind of a nickname that um she adopted and how did that nickname sort of come to be or what if anything transpired between the two of you that that L to down so I was leaving I believe my residence one day um in Canton traveling down Pleasant Street um I saw the defendant uh along the side of the house on the Pleasant Street side using a using a weed whacker and um I gave kind of a beep of the horn and the defendant um gave me the finger so I realized that she clearly must not have recognized me because possibly because what I was driving I was in my work vehicle so I spun the vehicle around and uh as I pulled up to roll down the window she said uh something to the fact get the away from me my husband's a Boston cop and then I roll down the window more and um she clearly recognized me who I was in that vehicle and had that become sort of a recurring theme in in subsequent conversations that you had with Miss Reed yes uh now sir if I could direct your attention to page six within that exhibit before you they're not numbered right Mr L I'm sorry they're not numbered is your is your copy numbered no your hna not that I can see they're not so be cognizant of that when you ask questions you know I I believe they are that that's why I hesitate um it's sort of in the middle of the page facing sideways Turn the Page oh my apologies I have it now very small um so just on this page direct your intention to the bottom uh it sort of goes on to the next date of January 13th is that correct yes and if I could direct your attention to uh page seven uh of those text messages um and com if I can have page seven on the screen and Sir if you could read from page seven and if you could just uh indicate uh who's speaking and what what is being said in this communication so again I'm I'm in the blue bubbles um did you try those speroff screwdrivers I stopped at The Hil for one last for one last night I said haha how did you get my digits um defendant responded the Melissa and Leo show I said haha I thought you creeped John's phone I said haha again um defendant responded no way I was the last person in Greater Canton who didn't have your number I think even krie has it I responded what with a bunch of question marks I said I just don't give my personal number out to anyone how would krie have my number with a bunch of question mark and the defendant responded Melissa had it as far as in those Communications uh the reference the defendant makes to the Melissa Ando show do you know what that means the two individuals that I also know from the Hillside and uh the krye person that she refers to do you know who that I believe that's Kerrie cin Chris uh Curran's wife now if I could direct your attention to page nine and m i that page n and again sir if you could uh read from page nine as far as that conversation goes and just indicates uh whom is speaking at at different points Okay so the defendant said I'd prefer weed whacka I responded that's the thing about nicknames um defendant said we were tossing around the idea of a short vacay with the current show wanted to see if you were game I I responded you don't have a say and I believe I was referring to nicknames and I said vacation where defendant responded I know uh they need to happen organically on the queen and nicknames was just going to rent a beach house in I believe it was supposed to say Fort Lauderdale it's abbreviated something quick and easy I said hm defendant responded I'm the queen of AKs too always a good time I responded I'm going to Nashville next month 19 to 21st for a benefit one of our guys got shot in the head you guys should come and as far as either one of those uh trips that you were discussing do you recall any further discussion or any going on any of those trips well I I mean I definitely went to Nashville for that benefit for for for one of my co-workers um there may have been more conversation about the Florida trip but I can't specifically recall it now sir if I could direct your attention to page 16 of Miss Gman if I can have that and this is on that same date of January 13th is that correct I believe so the date's not at the top here but I believe it is and again sir if you could read from that page of communication as far as who was speaking and and what was said so there's a photograph of somebody with a weed whacker um the defendant said no you're not a creep I said nope she said you're kind of a loner which I used to be I responded no not really I have a ton of buddies but I only let a handful of friends in that I'm tight with so you think you got me figured out and then I typed circle of trust in uh quotes and Sir if I could direct your attention to the next page number 17 coming if I could have that and again sir if you could uh read from page 17 as far as uh what is said and who was talking so the defendant said yeah I said loner not loser I assume you know a lot of people PPL people abbreviated you never really can figure anyone out completely your dad died when you were young and I responded he died in m of 2020 um I'm so not a loser you won't figure me out LOL defendant responded no one is no one is a loser I just didn't mean loner to imply friendly friendless I'm sorry that re I'm sorry that that's recent it wasn't covid was it I responded cancer defendant responded I know you date girls who don't lock the house behind them and you are private and observant I'm sorry what kind I responded lung brain kidney and pelvis how do you know all these things lol i' I to turn your attention to the next page 18 and again sir if you could read from that uh in the blue bubbles is is me I said you're funny defendant responded yikes wow that's rough Jesus I'm sorry we chat a lot at the hillside I responded don't be sorry life is hard sometimes I always figure it out then I said who chats question mark defendant responded life is hard but losing people is the hottest so I'm sorry so I'm sorry we chat I responded that's all you got we chat sure you're from Brockton spit it out defendant responded you and I chatted about the girl who kept forgetting to lock the door I said oh she has been out of play like for three months now and then I believe it starts to say out of rotation question mark and then sir if I could direct your attention to page 20 and again sir if you could read the mage I'm in the blue bubbles again I said I just got a Saturday invite the defendant said did you say yes question mark I said not yet with a bunch of periods but did respond defendant said what did you say Mr elusive I responded no I just don't want to intrude on your coup's night haha I'm shy the defendant responded we prefer to hang out with non- couples Bob Gallery is probably coming too solo we'll probably do cards or something at some point I'm inviting you and I said haha now sir is that the Saturday night that's being referenced there is that the same night that you would gone over to the home at some point for the Patriots game yes and if I can direct your attention to the next page page 21 yes and again if you could uh read from that the defendant said John said Brian's being wishy-washy now in quotes I responded haha did you tell him you texted me the fendant responded no and then I gave a thumbs up then I said you cranky now question mark defendant said haha no just stop being so anti- couples most couples don't even like each other I said name a few defendant said name a few I don't know all of them question mark they they all want to hang out with single people and then I said hm thank you sir if I could direct your attention to page 26 and Sir if I could ask you to read from that page in blue is going to be myself again foul ball defendant responded you stink I said you suck in your double trouble the fendant responded you're hot I responded are you serious or messing with me the fender responded no I'm serious I responded failing is mutual is that bad how long have you thought that defendant responded are you okay driving you don't want to stay here I responded back I'm fine I have an office at the PD you didn't answer the question and then it starts to say defendant said rather you stay here and is that uh to your memory when when is that text exchange taking place in reference to the night that you went over to the o i I believe it was that night now at Mr O's house on that particular evening um do you recall which how you came into the house I believe it might have been the front door and uh if you know about how long were you at Mr O's house that night I was probably one of the last people to leave I think and what if anything happened as you were exiting from Mr oi's house that night so as I was exiting um the house it was either through the Breezeway or the garage and as we were walking out the defendant planted a kiss on me now before you went out that way um where was Mr O'Keefe did you say goodbye to him or anything like that I think I said goodbye to him uh he might have been in the bathroom I'm not 100% positive where he was and when you went to leave uh which exit from the house were you headed to ini isue well as I as I said I don't remember exactly if it was the Breezeway or the or the garage I was I was starting to walk through But whichever way I started to exit the defendant told me to go a different way and where which way did the defendant tell you to go well her way and I don't and I and I don't and I don't I honestly can't tell you which door that was if it it was it was either the the Breezeway or the garage and as you were going out um again I'm sorry what happened the defendant kissed me and how did she kiss not like a friend um lip to lip is that fair to say yes uh like a romantic that's the way I interpreted it and were you still inside the house at the time this occurred or were you outside the house if you know um not sure if we had just got to the outside or not it might have I'm not sure if I was it was close proximity to to leaving and what was your reaction to that I was taken back was that something that you were expecting no um and about how long was it between when that when the defendant kissed you and and when you left oh almost immediately now sir if I could turn your attention back to the uh the exhibit before you in page number 27 yes again sir if you could read from that page and who's speaking um so I'm in the blue Bubbles and I said I wish I think you're messing with me the defendant said why do you think that I responded because this is so out of left field where did these feelings come from the Fant responded I just think you're like me I said meaning question mark defendant said do you have your own kids I said I have no kids how am I like you question mark um hello and defendant responded aren't we alike I said I responded I think so so why did you get my number and reach out to me and I think the defend put a question mark on that bubble I believe or I might have I don't know now that conversation as far as um you asking her about um why she reached out to you how often was that question asked by you through the course of these text Communications well the the extent of the actual communication via text between the defendant and I was between January 12th in January 29th when John passed on the 28th and 29th the 28th I sent a text as we spoke about before when we're at the waterfall that text didn't respond there was a text sent by the defendant to me the next day so in that time period between the 12th and the 29th there was nine days that the defendant and I exchanged text messages with that being said those text messages I don't believe were every day consecutive days there was nine days in between the 12th and the 29th and so as far as as far as that questioning as far as um posing to her why did she reach out to you was that something that you asked once or more than once yeah I asked it more than once and and and and during the pendency of this communication I was basically trying to sus out what the intentions were of the defendant was the defendant interested in me was she at the end of her relationship with John was she trying to weaponize me against Jon and put me in the middle there was numerous things that were going on and I that's what I was trying to vet out or sus out or whatever you want to call it but I was I was having a hard time accepting what was happening sir if I could direct you to the next page page 28 and again sir if you could read from that page so I'm in the blue bubbles uh shoot straight with me um defendant responded I told you I just think we're alike right couple of question marks I responded Yes agree now what defendant responded I don't know I said um shouldn't you know defendant responded do you like me I said yes from jump defendant said when was jump I said first time I saw you defendant responded when was that I said hm Hillside for your sure if I could direct your attention to the next page 29 if I could ask you to read from that sir so again I'm in the blue bubbles Hillside for sure when were you interested defendant responded I don't know you're just my type I responded you think you can handle me I thought you were happy question mark Defender responded how do you know if I'm happy I said I just assumed defendant responded are you hard to handle I may have put a question mark then I said what do you like about me the responded I just feel like you're from my neighborhood I said yes yah ditto defendant responded and I think you're hot and if I could direct your attention to the next page page 30 if I could ask you to read from that sir I'm in the blue bubbles again you really think that I have always thought that about you defendant responded what I responded that you're hot smart witty but I didn't think you were interested the fendant responded witty I responded yeah meaning quick with a response tell me why you got my number and reached out to me defendant responded just thought we we were the same Slash from the same neighborhood I responded are you afraid to say what's on your mind I what what's in your mind and then I said on the fendant responded no didn't I no didn't I question marck sir if I can turn your penion attention excuse me to the next page 31 I ask you to read from that I'm glad I'm in the blue bubble again I'm glad I stopped by I should have come earlier do you really live in Mansfield the fendant responded yeah I basically yeah I was basically begging you I responded you don't have to bed me I meant to say beg the fendant responded huh I said I will give you what you want how are you texting right now and I said uh leaving me hanging defendant responded no I typed kids and then kind of defendant responded how am I texting and I began to say is everyone asleep as far as the um communication from the defendant indicating yeah I was basically begging you what did you take that to mean that you wanted me to come over and if I could turn your attention to the next page 32 if I could ask you to read from that page as well so it starts off with the defendant saying I just just wide awake on my phone yes they are I said I should have stayed LOL so now what question mark the Fant said yes you should have I responded that would have been distracting so now what so no what and then I said now defendant said now what what question mark I responded balls in your court defendant said what do you want I said I responded loaded question what do you want question mark defendant responded I asked you exclamation point I in turn said nope you initiated this if I could turn your attention to the next page 33 if I could ask you to read from that sir I said spit it out I'm in the blue bubbles defendant said hey we're single and we don't have kids we can do whatever we want I responded don't you have a boy question mark defendant responded where are you question mark I said Canton defendant said where question mark I responded my office is at the PD why why are you going to Mansfield question mark the Fant responded where is that I said Canton PD the Fant said I have a house there from before I reconnected W John I responded oh I feel like you're not really saying what's on your mind I'd like to turn your attention to the next page 34 and ask you to read from that sir defendant starts off and says do you like me question mark I responded Yes clearly defendant said come over my house I responded when question mark defendant said when works for you I said whoever and then whenever when works for you question mark the defendant said I asked you first I responded I think you're messing with me the Fant said I'm glad you came over tonight with some type of face I responded me too balls in your court what do you want Karen you looked great tonight I can direct your attention to the next page 35 and the last or second blue bubble down the bottom starting with are you glad do you see that page 35 yes and and where is it again uh second to last blue bubble uh starting with are you glad yes I I said I'm in the blue bubble I said are you glad you walked me out question mark and what did she respond defendant said um yes with like semicolon you know and some type of a mock there um are you question mark and I said DF for definitely and if I could director attention to the next page 36 and if you could please read from that so at the top I'm in the blue bubbles it says yes then I said are you going home tonight or tomorrow a.m. defendant texted we kissed Mama right question mark so then I put a question mark on her question and said is this a trick question defendant said I don't know when I'm going home I'm selling my house with what I think is a smiley face what a what a trick question and a couple of question marks I responded are you moving to Canton I'm following your lead with this the Fant responded I live here but I have property in m field I'm guessing it's Medfield the Fant said why my lead I don't want any responsibility I responded you started this right question mark why did you get my number and and it says each out to me it meant to say reach out to me I then said still have not told me and Sir if I could direct your attention in the next page 37 and ask you to read from that defendant said sorry should I not have I responded I'm fine with it just don't know why you can't answer the fendant said you're mad at me I said OMG no not at all you're being silly the fendant said I told you exclamation point I just think you're like me and I'm attracted to you and then she said a lot I responded feeling is mutual I just never saw this coming the fendant said why question mark I responded because I just assumed you were happy with your situation the Fant responded I was but things have deteriorated and if I could direct your attention to the next page 38 and ask you to read from that sir I said why question mark how so question mark what did Melissa say when you asked for my number question mark the Fant responded it is very very complicated he and I dated when we were kids and then his sister died and everything got up I responded he seems very into you the Fant responded I just told Melissa that I had your number but lost it I said that's cute she wasn't suspicious question mark the Fant responded no she's great I responded does she know you like me question mark the Fant responded she's a sweetie we just agreed you are great with another smiley tight face and Sir if I could direct your attention to page 40 ask you to read from that def defendant said yeah but where is that I have had all my here for a couple years in my house has been vacant but I'd like to get closer to the water I responded hm are you breaking up or staying together the Fant responded I don't know he hooked up with another girl on vacation I'm very close to his niece it is a friend it is a very up situation I responded when was that and how did you find out he hooked up question mark I don't want to complicate your situation the Fant responded we went out we went away for New years's the four of us I put the kids to bed and found him in the lobby of our hotel all over one of our friend whatever it doesn't matter I responded it does matter now as far as that indication that she made to you either through text Communications or in person uh did she indicate at any point in time where that occurred so there was an occasion that the defendant stopped at my house and again the conversation that took place at my house was in relation to again sussing out and trying to figure out if this was what everything that I stated before like was this legitimate was she seriously interested to me was she at the end of her relationship with John um and during that there was touch on that topic and I became to real it was my understanding at that point that this incident took place in Aruba on New Year's Eve based off the text messages and the conversation at my residence this was something that she brought up not only in the text Communications with you but in person in communication with you as well yes I mean outside of being over there for the game there was only one time that the defendant and I ever interacted on a one-on-one basis if I can direct your attention to the next page 41 and ask you to read from that so I'm in the blue Bubbles and I said did they bang question mark the defendant responded does that matter question mark I said sorry I was just asking I was just trying to figure out theant responded it doesn't really matter I said okay I won't ask again the fenet said I don't care with a smiley face it it doesn't matter I said I responded back okay hear you loud and clear Karen the Fant responded uh okay I responded why are you getting your thing all twisted up over simple questions then I typed onong the Fant responded I'm not I am question mark I responded you're kind of getting defensive the Fant responded not at all with a qu with a an exclamation point thank you sir if I could direct your attention to page 46 ask you to read from that defendant is in Gray she said we did KISS earlier comma no with an exclamation point I responded in blue bubble I think you initiated that no question mark defendant said yep do I owe you an apology question mark I said OMG no why are you being sensitive the fendant responded I'm not I responded kind of z a fft responded by the defendant what do you want from me question mark I responded what's on the table question mark defendant said what do you want ideally question mark I responded the real deal defendant responded it doesn't [Music] exist thank you sir I can direct your attention to uh page 57 sir and ask you to read from that it starts off in blue I said I can go to any base but usually hands and Bedford it down to the cape defendant responded which base down the cape which branch I said Amy's Amy defendant said I'm not abnormally sensitive I responded joint based cape card uh I won't be so hard on you defendant responded OMG you're not you called me trouble that makes me sound bad I responded I was just playing with you the fendant responded you weren't but that's okay I responded stop being sensitive please theant resp responded I'm not now certain reference in that that page of text Communications you made reference to a a base down the cape is that right yes and where is that in relation to uh where you live in BARC County so I can utilize one of the gates uh to get onto the base I can get fuel I can shop I then can hit the Bor bridge and I would use that as a cut through at the time when I was splitting my time between two different properties is there also like a dutyfree shop there there is yes and at some point throughout the course of text Communications did you offer to pick something up for the def for the defendant from that shop I believe so if I could direct your attention to page UH 60 and ask you to read from that sir defendant said I don't know question mark it's an it's an it's an old Colonial it has a lot of bedrooms with kind of an emoji I responded more than more than you clearly need are you moving to C and question mark the fendant said I know seriously some rooms I only go into dust not anytime soon I'm there most of the time but sometimes it's a lot I responded a thought why question mark defendant respond I I then said do you even know what you want question mark or who question mark the Fant responded because I went from being solo to trying to give attention to kids who aren't mine and I never wanted kids I responded I thought you were happy in this I thought you were in this happy relationship defendant responded everyone is happy at the hillside if I could direct your attention to the the next page 61 and ask you to read from that so it starts off with the defendant it said everyone is happy at the hillside exclamation point I responded oh God you avoid things defendant responded it's just very very complicated Dynamic with the four of us he isn't cut out for what he's doing and the kids present constant issues I responded I think he believes he is doing the right thing the Fant responded well of course he is but his heart isn't in it it's only because he was very very close to his sister I responded back I know how you feel kind of I was married and when I met her she had a 2 and a half year old I went from being single to being a dad it's hard then I said I'm divorced since 2017 and have no kids I could ask you to turn to the next page 62 and ask you to read from that sir I said I'm divorced since 2017 and I have no kids the fendant responded I try very hard but they are very spoiled and they're not my family my parents keep telling me I'd feel differently if they were mine or my own sisters then I told you he got drunk and sloppy on NY while we were away and that has really affected me I responded what did he exactly do do question mark the Fant responded I never got married and now somehow I'm arguing W someone about raising quit kids with an emoji I responded why don't you tell me question mark fendant responded he was a puddle all day and then disappeared then I found him all over our friend's sister in the lobby of our hotel and she's gross which I think may actually be worse not sure I responded oh God did bang and ask you to turn to the next page sh page 63 if you can read from that uh I'm in the blue I said did they bang question mark the Fant said so I was the kids so I was the kid celebrating New Year's W I think it's without him which shouldn't be my role no I doubt it he was a mess I said hm was it the first time with her or do you think there were others defendant responded I don't really think there were others I'm with him all the time he never seems to want to go anywhere wo without so without me but honestly the issues with the kids bother me more than him actually cheating they they are constant and it feels like a lose lose I responded hm you clearly have a lot of feeling swirling inside you the fendant responded yeah it's very complicated sorry for the rant I responded or began to respond you can vent babe I to turn your attention to the next page 64 ask you to read from that sir defendant said basically I just feel like I spread myself too thin and sometimes it's thankless I responded hm defendant responded you probably felt that way too I responded I did it times it was one not two thankfully the Fant resp responded want to grab a drink question mark I responded if you gave me some notice I could I could have defendant responded you and capitol letters said you were adaptable I responded I am but I have my work truck with me and not my personal do you get angry when you don't get your way defendant responded that sounds like an excuse I really get my way now as far as uh her invitation um is that something that occurred on one time or more than one time I believe it was more than one time and at any point in time other than the two you've already recounted as far as going over to Mr O for the football game or uh the defendant stopping by your uh apartment in W Roxbury were there any other occasions you went out over the defendant's house or out with the defendant by yourself no no and Sir if I could direct your attention to page 74 that defendants said are you single question mark I responded Yes defendant said I don't think it's out of left field wasn't I already begging you to come over last Saturday question mark question mark I responded you getting my number from Melissa and reaching out to me question mark theend said and on vacay and probably a few other occasions I responded you didn't it should say you didn't really beg the Fant said I asked at least twice how do people usually reach out to each other question mark question mark I responded why would I have thought you had any interest in me question mark um usually do it usually do it when they do live with usually do do it when they do live with someone and then I said do not do it defendant responded maybe maybe not thank you s if I can direct you to page 77 and ask you to read from that sir I said I could go on and on but I do not want to pump it should sayou up too much the fendant responded thanks for saying that but low comps at the hillside I responded you know how to ruin something nice I frequent other places the defendant responded John has showed me about five times the ring video of me walking you out on Saturday in my voice and my accent are killing me softly with an emoji of somebody throwing up I responded I'm what defendant responded yeah he has cameras everywhere you cops with another Emoji I responded Jesus the Fant said he's like Christ are you guys hooking up question mark question mark and I started I said OMG great if I could turn your attention to the next page 78 sir I responded I don't need drama dude defendant said no it's fine I responded seriously defendant said I'm serious with an exclamation point I said you legit planted one on me the fendant responded I know where the cameras are anyway duh and then it was OMG Bruins with an emoji after that I responded so your slick move isn't on there with some question marks defendant responded course not I responded oh my God and then I said I almost an emoji with somebody throwing up the Fant responded it was a peck anyway I kissed Carrie and gay Jeff too I responded yeah weak I agree now as far as cameras at Mr o' kei's house is that something that you were aware was there prior to that conversation with the defendant no not that I recall i' like to turn your attention to the next 79 you read from that sir defendant said LOL funny I responded so now he is jealous of me question mark defendant said no with an exclamation I told you he likes you a lot I said which makes this worse question mark defendant said you said or did something at the bar last week and he goes I like Brian more and more I responded I think he's a good dude too the Fant responded yeah he is I responded funny what's your endgame why what do you want from me you will just confuse the you should say the out of yourself because I'm a lot of fun now sir the he that you're referring to in those text Communications who was that just for clarity John O'Keefe and if I can direct your attention to page 844 and ask you to read from that page sir I said it was fun the Fant said I've complimented you today too with a couple of exclamation points and then some type of emoji I said and kick my nuts in the Fant said OMG how I responded if I had more notice I would have grabbed the drink somewhere so I'm all set with that's and then I said in quotations that's fine but I am not asking [Music] again uh defendant said well it was 7 p.m and I'm super cool so right now so right now I'm asking again with some type of a I think it's a smiley face I responded coming to your house would have been bad for the both of us fadas you wouldn't have wanted me to leave the defendant responded now equals not that sounds good I responded that's trouble defendant said why question mark and if I could direct your attention to page 90 ask you read for that sir 90 90 yes the defendant said no I'm busting it chopped it's okay I responded no you're s you are sensitive nice try you don't think if I came over for a drink we would have gotten carried away the Fant said you and Capitol lettus said you were adaptable in tons of fun I took that as an invite for an invite and I responded oh okay the fendant responded I'm 42 I know what happens when you invite someone over for a drink I responded you're the master of avoidance so you think I would just give it meant to say give it up the fendant responded I I have been I've been a lot in my life I have a little bit of cop DM mindset and then said Ben through and if I can direct you to the next page one sir the Fant said what am I avoiding question mark I'm not afraid to be direct I responded some of my questions defendant responded okay which ask again I said nope tricks are for kids defendant responded I'm pretty sure we would have hooked up I responded okay defendant said I can't say that question mark I said of course you can the fendant said did I miss any other questions sir question mark probably are you having a drink right now question mark the Fant said yeah on my second I said show me what you got and if I could direct your attention to page [Music] 99 ask you to read from that [Applause] sir defendant said none of that is true exclamation point I'm not talking to other guys and I have issues with John and things are far from perfect you just happen to know about him BC I guess because we all hang out at the same bar I'm sure you talk to other girls that's what single people do I'm not married neither are you neither is John I responded was that your attempt at a lecture or deductive reasoning question mark what do you want from me question mark the Fant said that's just how I think slash feel you don't need to approve I've already answered that last question a couple times I think I responded I'm not judging you never have never will defendant responded you shouldn't I don't know what your private life is about nor is it my business than you sir if I can now direct you to page 102 and ask you to read from that defendant said my only I'm assuming point is that there's a difference between being married to someone and dating them and we have no intention of ever getting married the point of dating is not to get tied down if you're not confident you should be in my mind anyway the first two but I don't care too much about the other girl I respond resped okay so he is cool with you dating other people question mark defendant responded and I'm not I happy per se just realistic that there's cracks and it's far from perfect I doubt it if he's seeing someone else I wouldn't want to know either way he probably feels the same way and you probably feel that way about whoever you hook up with I think that's normal I responded okay the Fant said you don't agree with me question mark question mark like to direct your attention to page 107 read from that sir defendant said at a bar question mark I responded I wasn't suggesting anytime soon I know you're with your friend I meant my house probably after 8 defendant said probably after 8 I said I responded okay if you don't want Wana that's fine no pressure defendant responded I will a drink I looks like I I tabed the bubble with a question mark I then said what do you drink question mark are you out now question mark defendant responded sorry I'll drink whiskey if that's what you're having I responded haha send me a pick of you two now you would testified earlier about some occasion uh prior to the 28th um when the defendant had come over your house uh in West rockbury correct yes this page that you just read as well as some of the successive Pages after that is that sort of arranging for that to occur after she goes out or leaves uh from a friend out in Boston I believe she was with a friend that night in Boston a female friend yes and that evening when she came over your house uh about how long was she there not long and so what happened when she arrived or or what if anything did the two of you talk it was It was kind of more of this it was it was it was a kind of a wasn't an interrogation it was a face-to-face version of trying to sus out and vet like what is this all about again I mean you know I'm not not proud of these text messages it it is what it is is I take responsibility for them but you know John was a friend at the same time and I certainly wasn't if they were at the end of the relationship they were at the end of their relationship but I wasn't going to have somebody utilize me and weaponize me against somebody that I liked um and it was just it it was just a weird experience it was I don't either think either one of us finished a drink it was like I said it was it was this type of like what is this all about and then she left I just I think I might have asked her to text me when she got in so I knew she got home now that evening or at any other point um at any other point in in your friendship or your relationship whatever uh however you want to term it was there any other sort of uh intimate contact beyond what you've described occurring as she walked you out that night you were over Mr O's house for the patri are you asking if she ever kiss me again I'm asking if there was any kissing any sexual relationship sh anything at all between yourself and the defendant absolutely not in in in in referring to my at my residence when she stopped by it was just I was very uncomfortable and this just an uncomfortable situation I just a weird vibe that's the best I can describe it and lastly sir turning lastly as it applies to this turning your attention to the last page number 118 and uh there's a couple different dates uh from from the middle to the bottom of the page is that correct there is i' I can ask you to start reading from excuse me where it says Sunday January 23rd 9:40 p.m. defendant so Sunday January 23r 23rd at 9:40 p.m. defendant texted me phone works and then an emoji with arrows going like both ways and I responded thought you were all set question mark defendant said with talking question mark no I said hm are you sure and uh she didn't respond and I believe I said that was it for that for that the 23rd I'm sorry so then the next uh date that any text communication was sent between the two of you would have been uh Friday 11:32 p.m. is that correct that's correct that would have been when we were at the waterfall and again what does the text say there um well that's from you to her is that correct yes and then the next T communication is the following day or Saturday the 29th at 11:54 a.m. is that correct yes and uh who is speaking in that communication and and what is said that is the defendant and the defendant said John died and uh did you respond to that at all no and did you have any other communication uh with Miss Reed following receiving that text message on January 29 no I have not thanks Miss Gman you can take sir if I could um couple more questions for you taking you back uh on the early morning of January 29th uh when you had come from waterfall to Fairview and then you were leaving from Fairview if I could turn that sort of portion into your mind um when you pulling away from the residents the period of time that you were talking about as far as the plow being down and scraping a little bit on the ground you call that I do how how much distance are we talking about with respect to that uh distance less less than a less than a foot I would say I mean it's real quick I heard it and then as far as when you uh you're familiar with an area in the front of Mr Albert's property at 34 Fairview uh where there is a a flag pole and a fire hydrant I do know where that is yes and as you drove by the house that evening where were you in in relation uh to to that part of the the yard when I drove away yes well I I might have been in the I was in the street I pulled I pulled away so that area would be on my passenger side and so what I'm asking sir is as you pulled away U did you pull away alongside the curb did you pull to the middle of the street or where did you direct the vehicle to go as you were pulling away like any other time I I pulled away from the curb and that's a that's kind of a I mean it's a one lane street so to speak and nobody was coming towards me so just pulled out into the middle into the street drove away I may have a moment yes I have no further questions of this witness your honor I'll see you for one minute over here at Side by before we begin jurus feel free to stand up and stretch e e e e all right Mr Jackson whenever you're ready thank you honor uh who did you come here today with Mr Higgins who did I travel to the courthouse with who did you meet here an attorney my attorney is there a reason that you felt compelled to bring an attorney with you for your testimony as a witness in a homicide investigation Che sustained trial I should say sustained you brought your attorney with you who's sitting right behind you correct that is not my attorney oh I'm sorry I thought you where his attorney my mistake where is your attorney I don't know he might be in the courthouse is he in the building I don't know where he physically is right now okay without telling me anything that you said to your attorney did you meet with him this morning before your testimony yes did you meet with him during the break in your again don't tell me what you talked about but did you meet with him during the break when we took a break a few minutes ago yes I did okay um and obviously the subject matter again without telling me any communication the subject matter was your testimony here today correct no how many conversations have you had with Mr Wally about your testimony or your proposed testimony in anticipation of you testifying today one when was that that was on Monday how long was that conversation I would say under an hour and a half in person or over the phone in person where was that conversation that was at the DA's office who else was there uh my attorney uh victim witness Advocate uh I believe her name is Christen Collins um Ada mlin Ada L and Lieutenant briyan telly from the mass State Police anybody taking notes I did not I don't know if anybody was taking notes well you were sitting there watching lieuten T did he take notes not that I saw no so you had an hour hour and a half long conversation with the prosecution team and a police officer witness and you're telling me that you did not see anybody taking a single note down is that right that's that's correct I was I did hand something to Lieutenant Tully but he didn't take any notes in reference to what I handed him what' you hand him I handed him a piece of mail that I got at my residence uh anything having to do with this case oh I believe so uh was that turned over to Mr L no I turned it over to State Police you want to may we approach for a second yes e e e other than that piece of mail that you handed to Lieutenant Tully was there any other exchange of documents or anything like that have you shown anything in anticipation of your testimony the only thing I can be recalled showing was a photograph of the exterior of 34 fville Road in Canton what about the text messages that you just went over expensively were were you shown those I was shown a pile of papers and I was advised to those text messages were going to be they were put into another format so they were easier to read and these are the screenshots that you just described on the on the uh exhibit well as I said he he showed me the stack said they were the text messages they were in a different format but I'm assuming that's what they were um what was your assignment with the ATF back in 2022 I was assigned to the Bridgewater field office but I was full-time with United States Marshall Service uh to as a doing fugitive apprehension and where were you physically officing out of well I continue to maintain the office at Canton PD okay but to be clear you were a Federal Officer not a Canton police officer on some sort of a task force with Canton PD correct no I was not on a task force with Canton PD but you did have an office at Canton PD based on a personal relationship that you had with the chief correct he gave you this office as a courtesy is that right so if I can explain um yes or no was it provided as a courtesy well working partnership I would say um and you've been asked that specific question in a in a prior hearing correct yes in June of 2023 right yes and you explained look there was a personal relationship that I had with Chief burtz did it was born out of tragedy of a family tragedy that he was aware of horrible tragedy yes and based on that personal friendship and that personal Rel relationship he offered you the convenience of officing out of Canon PD I would say that's a good summary and in addition to just having an office there you also had a key card access correct I did to get in and out what was the name that you used you said it was a proxy card I think it's called I think in the in the IT world it's probably called a proxy Cod that's what I know it's to be so you had both a physical office and full access to Camp PD all based on the friendship and relation ship and convenience uh well the friendship and relationship you had with Chief burwitz and the the convenience that he wanted to give you for having that office there correct no I wouldn't say full access I had access to certain areas within the department Well you certainly had access to and from your office yes yeah Ingress and egress to the Canton Police Department yes you could go in and out of the sallyport I could you could go upstairs to uh to Chief berkowitz's office yes you could go downstairs to the dispatch area which is on the first floor correct yes and then you could go out to the sally port into the sally port across that garage those two bay doors at your leisure well that would exclude the evidence room The Arms Room and places like that I didn't have access to those places right but the places that I just mentioned you did have access to yes absolutely um You' had that office for what back in June uh back in January of 2022 probably had that office for more than what 3 years I would estimate probably sometime around 18 2018 2018 okay not 18 years 2018 no 2018 I'm sorry my apologies uh yeah maybe maybe close to four years yes okay um I want to turn your attention Mr Higgins to January 28 January 29 2022 uh by the way I should ask another foundational question are you currently uh still at ATF am I employed by ATF correct yes I am special agent yes what is your current Billet or your assignment objection is that something you're free to discuss I'm assigned to division operations at this time okay what does that mean that's you're taken out of the field was I taken out of the field yes are you no longer on the field Jackson I move to strike sustained let's move on you may be able to come back to this thank you your honor I want to turn your attention now to January 2 8 29 um of 2022 um you recall those dates I do you've been living with those dates for the last couple of years like a nightmare um joh o Keef's body was found outside your friend Brian Albert's house on the morning of January 29th 2022 correct yes you you've previously testified that on January 28th uh you had gone to New York uh for this memorial service correct Funeral Service yes the funeral service not the memorial you separate the two so well the Wake would be the night before funeral it was I call them the services it wasn't a memorial memorial to me would be more of like an annual thing this was the services just want to be clear so you went with Brian Albert Kevin Albert and Eddie Hernandez is that right I traveled down there myself but I I I met up with them to go to the services yes um is it fair to say that you and Brian Albert and Kevin Albert sort of run in the same social and professional circles I mean without speaking for anybody else I think we know a lot of the same people go to some of the same holiday parties for instance yes uh go to the some of the same uh events whether they're law enforcement events or otherwise retirement parties yes things like that um might meet up at a bar and have a social drink together yes might share a meal together correct yes um and you would agree that you particularly are pretty well connected to the Canton law enforcement Community could you qualify that explain that you know quite a few cops right well it's a small department so I do know everybody in the building in some capacity okay so my question is you know quite a few cops in Camp I do you're pretty good friends with a matter of fact maybe best friends with the chief of police former Chief of Police Kenny burkewitz correct yes uh you know Brian Alber he's a Boston police officer yes you know his brother and work with his brother uh at Kon PD correct yes uh so it's fair to say back to my original question you're relatively well connected in the law enforcement Community the fabric of that community in Canton is that right well I think that comes with working with people yes is that yes or no yes okay as a matter of fact you've even given um a personal toast at one of these events these retirement events Etc correct Chief aritz yes and during the course of that toast you even said if you want to hide a body Kenny burkowitz is your man correct check did you say that did you say that I don't recall that you don't remember telling that joke in front of a room full of folks I don't if you want to hide a body Kitty burwitz is your man I don't um you will agree that some of your closest friends are some of the more powerful people in Canton in terms of politics and law enforcement right jaction ask it differently at that same retirement dinner there were members of the DA's office correct yes a matter of fact the da Michael morrisy was there I believe he was at one point all right um and that was the same event that you gave uh either a keynote speech or some sort of a a speech for chief burkwitz his retirement is that right yes how long have you known Brian Albert specifically I think I had some interaction with him when was on the Cambridge Fire Department in my capacity in fire investigations and then I would say pretty much through my entire career at ATF you know I I came into contact with Brian give me a number of years well I've been with ATF now for 15 years I probably known him at least that whole time you'd say that you have both a social and professional working relationship with him I would say yes he's a friend um frequently drink together we have drank together I wouldn't say frequently but yes we've we've drank together break bread together have meals together absolutely Head lunch um as a matter of fact you were asked at a prior hearing uh whether or not you could put a number on the number of times that you've had drinks with Brian Albert and you said somewhere around 50 or something like that or under actually you said under 50 under 50 I think I might have said 30 um and that was in 2 years correct yes so not entire not under 50 in the entirety of your relationship a 15-year relationship with Brian Albert literally in the prior two years when you gave your testimony in June of 2023 in those two years met up with them and had drinks under 50 times was that a question yes could you rephrase it sure is it true that you testified answer quote I mean in two years I mean maybe under 50 end quote that was your testimony to how often you socialize with Brian Albert correct so we socialized more when we started I started working with his unit okay so my question is well I don't know the exact number but yes we socialized absolutely that's all I was getting at okay that's fine I mean there's there's no there's no secrets here I he's my friend Mr Higgins let me ask the questions I get it that's fine I get it um you also know Brian Albert well enough to know what his relationship with for instance the other guy that you traveled back from New York with Eddie Hernandez I do know Eddie Hernandez I actually know Eddie the longest out of everybody so you knew Eddie our officer Hernandez knew ask the question you knew officer Hernandez before you ever knew Brian Albert yes you knew him before you even knew Kevin yes and you're aware that there was a physical altercation Albert and Eddie Hernandez that you're aware of correct the objection sustained are you aware that Brian Albert had gotten into a fist fight with Eddie Hernandez jackon sustained were you at a Christmas party when that happened Jackson your honor sustained is to that form you can be specific have you ever been an event with Brian Albert and Eddie Hernandez and seen them fight Jack uh Christmas five years or so before 2022 okay the objection sustained you do know that Brian Albert has a reputation for being a fighter objection sustain you were asked in a formal interview do you recall I want to make sure I'm I'm clear about some of your prior statements you had a formal interview with some folks prior to your testimony at a prior proceeding you understand what I'm talking about I'm tracking okay at the formal interview which is what I'm going to call that okay the formal interview you were asked about Brian Albert and his reputation were you not yes or no yes you indicated in that formal interview that even Chief burwitz was a little afraid of Brian Albert all right so that is the objection sustained that's strick and I'll see you at sidebar that's e e e e e may I inquire yes thank you honor uh you're also relatively close friends in addition to being close friends with Brian Albert you're also relatively CL close friends with his brother Kevin correct I am Kevin Albert is a detective with the Canton Police Department is that right yes and you've worked in the same physical office with him for a number of years physical building physical building that's a better way to put it it's different is that right yes and it's fair to say that you've consulted with Kevin Albert on certain of his cases professionally is that right I've assisted and you've also socialized with him shared drinks with him gone to bars with him is that right yes I have it's fair to say that you know the Albert family relatively well I would say that I know Brian and Kevin the best on January you drove your Jeep Wrangler to the hillside bar to meet up with Brian Albert for drinks correct I did you said you drank three to four whiskey sodas at the hillside is that right uh it'd be Jameson and ginger not whiskey soda my mistake Jameson to Ginger Jameson is a Irish whiskey it is uh and Ginger is Ginger Ale yes okay uh what was Brian Albert drinking if I was to guess a beer I don't want you to guess do you know what he was drinking no I don't he was drinking he was drinking something okay alcoholic yes um you two were probably going round for round in other words finish a drink get another round for the two of you finish it get another round um I don't think we no I wouldn't say we were going round for round so he was nursing one beer while you had four Jameson well it would it would have take say that again he was nursing one beer while you had four Jameson's what you said no he was probably maybe he had more beers than I had Jameson's is more what I would say okay so maybe he had five or six beers where you had four James I'm not going to put a number on it because I don't know but it was more more than what more than you maybe he wasn't there that long um well it doesn't take that long to drink a beer does it I mean if you're sort of thirsty and in a hurry is that a question everything I say up here is a question okay just presume that all right so well that wasn't so let's yes that would um all right let me put a question mark at the end of that okay your memory that Brian Albert had more drinks than you did when you had those three to four um Jameson and gingers to be honest with you I wasn't keeping track he left Hillside and you stayed correct first short time yes you later changed your mind and ultimately decided to go to the waterfall you finished whatever you're eating or drinking decided to go over the waterfall right yes because I'm always saying I'm going to show up and then I kind of do the Irish exit so I decided it was a long day it was an emotional day and I decided to join them did you drive your vehicle over there yes I did after having as many as four whiskies yes Brian Albert did he drive himself well I didn't see him I I dropped him off in uh Boston pbd District down there in Charlestown and I'm assuming he drove back towards that way to meet me he wasn't with anybody else not that I know of so he was drinking at the hillside bar and then got in his car and drove over to the waterfall as well I didn't see him drive over but I assume that's what he did yes um you went to John O'Keefe's house I'm going to shift gears for a second you went to John O'Keefe's house at some point to watch the Patriots game on January 16th right yes that was the time when you indicated that when you left Karen gave you a kiss goodbye correct yes um it's safe to say that that was not some hot passionate long kiss but you think it was more than just a friendly PE correct I wouldn't describe it as a PEC I describe it as more than friends it was a kiss well you did describe it as a PE didn't you when when you texted Karen Reed and she said it was just a PEC and then you texted back I agree figure of speech what the truth right figure of speech after that incident it's safe to say we've just gone through a number of them uh you exchanged flirtatious texts with Miss Reed is that right is the incident you're referring to when she kissed me no I'm saying after that after that incident yes after the Patriots came okay yeah you exchanged flirt ious texts we did with Miss re I did um and that was over the course of a few weeks couple of weeks but just nine days is that right so it was between the January 12th and I would say before the 28th because the 28th she didn't respond and the 29th she sent that last text that John died those weren't you've looked at the text right I have you just looked at the last couple of texts I did the last text that she sent of any substance was January 23rd right almost well I I think the text I think the text on the 29th John died there's substance there okay I'm not suggesting I'm talking about after you said um well 28th right the text of substance between the two of you talking between the two of you not the John died text that substance ended on the 23rd didn't it I'd have to I'd have to have the text in front of me to agree with you I I think it's right here Mr Jackson right in front of the exhibits right there thank you may I approach yes thank you okay wait are you directing me to the 23rd I'm directing you to the last page just look at everything on it and tell me if that refreshes your recollection this is the last substantive text about you and Karen before your um well yes it' be the 23rd at 940 May yes than so it was n days of texting between the two of you correct I believe so yes um and aside from the the kiss goodbye you two never had any sort of physical contact with one another do you mean intimate when you say physical correct I'm talking about shaking her hand Mr Higgins well I just I want to answer your your question truthfully I would like you to too you didn't have any physical intimate contact with this stre correct no I did not there was no other hugs or kisses or certainly no sex no um and when she said I'm glad you came over tonight in one of those texts that you just read a few minutes ago she was referring to the Patriots game with John there and a big crowd there correct yes over the course of that week or so um Miss re did explain her feelings about her relationship with Mr O'Keefe correct in text messages during the pendency of uh communication she she did Express yes and she indicated that uh there's a difference between being married to someone and dating someone Etc we saw those texts is that right yes uh she also indicated that in terms of the situation in Aruba she was upset by that but it's not that big a deal correct it was clear to me she was upset and she said I don't care too much about that other girl right well at least that's what she said in text yes that's what I'm asking you is that what she said in text Mr Higgins it's not a trick question that's what she said in text right um she said something along the lines of uh I'm just trying to be realistic there's cracks in the relationship it's far from perfect is that right I think that's something she texted all right and you'll agree that during the course of these texts you were constantly asking for clarity and explanation from her were you not during our communication I did ask for clarity many times you saw it correct yes and she pretty much wouldn't answer you correct she was non-committal I would say which is why you were saying in your texts why won't you answer the question and she would parry and not answer that one either correct well I didn't want to be stuck in the middle of anything that's not my question I'm asking you whether or not she would answer your question about Clarity specifically she avoided she avoided questions about Tex right and that was frustrating because you were very interested in her romantically at that point correct I was attracted to her I don't know that I would say very interested in her you texted things like why did you get my number and reach out that's a quote from the text we just read correct I did ask that yes you said now what is that right yes you texted so now what correct yes you texted I would hang out meaning with you yes correct you were showing interest in her yes you were showing romantic interest in her I wouldn't say it was romantic I was trying to vet it out well you weren't trying to you weren't seeing if she wanted to go see a a ball game with you as a buddy right not really no no you were showing romantic interest in her weren't you I was trying to vet out what is was her interest in me legitimate it was very normal for me to have that question in my mind when I didn't initiate this she did and I think it was a fair question just to try to find out you were showing romantic interest in Karen Reed weren't you I was interested but I don't think I was at the Romantic phase okay when I say romantic well what do you mean by romantic what's the Romantic pH sending somebody flowers dating well there's a difference between dating and hanging out I mean it's kind of hard to date somebody when you have a boyfriend Mr Higgins well not not if both people are dating other people right happens all the time doesn't it well I think I asked that question too right that's not my question my question is you seem to have a problem admitting that you had a romantic interest in my client is there a reason for that I was attracted to her right physically attracted she I thought she was an attractive woman romantically attractive I'm not going to go there no I don't I don't agree with that of course you're not going to go there because that would put you in a very awkward position wouldn't it sir objection not at all so the the objection sustained as to the form you can ask it differently and that answer will be stricken now I'm sorry may I yes you sexually attracted to her I was physically attracted to her yes sexually attracted to her was my question well I think in the text I said you're hot okay so my question again Mr Higgins you seem to not want to answer my question my question is were you or were you not sexually attracted to my client yes okay um you were think saying things like um what do you want from me and I want the real deal those are your words correct yes and the real deal with you would be to dat her to get involved with her romantically correct no the real deal was what what did you mean by I want the real deal like a relationship what kind of relationship a buddy buddy relationship you just want to go like the the same thing everybody wants a a real relationship like a romantic relationship Mr hi it's possible right and she was answering with things like when you said now what she answered I don't know correct yes she did when you asked so now what what she answered I'm sorry when you said so now what she answered now what what correct well I don't have it in front of me so I I I can't agree with you if you if I'd like to see what you're referring to well you just read it about 10 minutes ago would you would you quarrel if I know but this put you're you're you're giving me portions of it you were given portions of it by Mr L as well okay right did you text something like now what and she responded something like now what what I think on one occasion she did yes okay um and you remember you just read a text where she texted I'm sorry you texted what do you want from me and her responsive text was I don't know correct I think that was one of the texts again with this theme of her being non-committal one way or the other is that right well I don't that's not how I would interpret it as a theme no well didn't you just say she was non-committal that was your word not mine I did but as I told you it's been a process of trying to sus it out and see what this was all about right so when you were susing it out and determining whether or not you were going to advance this romantic interest she was sort of non-committal wasn't she well not one person advances it I think that's a that's a joint thing when you texted you want the real deal she responded it doesn't exist didn't she she did yes and she never once in any of those texts expressed anger or hatred toward John correct no not at all matter of fact she texted more she indicated more a frustration with the immediate family the kids she didn't want to have kids in it totality I would say yes um and then on January 23rd as you just saw she just stopped communicating with you altogether correct until the 29th yes correct do you know what the term ghosted means I think I have a general idea yes she sort of ghosted you didn't she I wouldn't agree with that that was frustrating to you that she just stopped communicating wasn't it no not at all you had been moving through this mindset of exploring a romantic interest with a beautiful woman thought was interested in you just like that was done right no so what communication did you have with her after January 23rd well she texted me on January 29th you keep saying that but you know what I'm getting to January 29th was her informing you that a tragedy had occurred John had died right I'm not talking about that Mr Higgin so I I don't want to playing games all right so that's what that's what we talked about no more of after the 23rd or up to the 23rd she had been texting back and forth with you pretty regularly you just saw it correct she also sent me a text with arrow saying the phone works both ways and as of the 23rd she stopped didn't she the texts were sporadic over those N9 days I don't know if they would have stopped or they would have kept going well they didn't keep going they well John passed away you know they didn't keep going because from the 23rd onto the 24th the 25th the 26th 27th 28th all the way to the 29th she never texted you right I believe so she didn't respond to any of your texts right well she didn't respond to the text on the 28th Friday all right why don't we take our lunch and what I'm going to ask the jury to do is can we do a 45 minute lunch instead of an hour's lunch today and also you don't have to answer me now but um maybe we'll go to 4:30 rather than 4:00 if that works for you if it doesn't work for any one of you jar is leaving your notebooks on your all so why don't I see Council over here at sideb e e e e e e e e e e e e you are muted thank you all right for the court please hey there Karen Reed trial Watchers this is a law on crime legal alert Google incognito tracked users browsing data without their knowledge yep well Mast Tor Alliance one of our legal sponsors is actually helping users file for compensation due to issues surrounding Google users privacy through their Incognito browser so if you've used Google incognito anytime since 2016 you can start your claim in less than 10 questions at Incognito claims.com LC live e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e all back session you made seated all right can we have Mr Higgins Please Mr Higgins please oh [Music] just a reminder you all right Mr Jackson whenever you're ready thank your honor Mr Higgins um before we broke for lunch we had we were talking about the text exchanges and the communication that you were having with Miss Reed the days leading up to January 23rd you recall that yes it's fair to say that herex Communications with you started to dwindle off in the days before the 23rd correct they lagged um as a matter of fact you reached out to her in an effort to try to prompt the the conversation to continue did you not I reached out to her but I wouldn't say that's what it was about well you um texted her stranger stranger didn't you not once or twice I believe so take a look uh if you don't mind at this is a page from what you've just seen need I'm sorry that was right in front of you may I approach please thank you just a second maybe that should just see thank you that's easy to find it's literally the last page report commission may I publish yes does that look like a fair representation of what you're looking at the last page of that series of texts yes I a very top to read what you write in the blue bubbles starting at the top haha stranger stranger and then what was the response from this Reed hey I was at the hilly all weekend and what did you respond that point I have not heard from you and by the way if you look at the next date down what's the date underneath I have not heard from you the 23rd so this would have preceded the 23rd correct yes okay then on the 23rd and by the way after you texted I have not heard from you she did not respond correct she did not respond then on the 23rd she did respond with phone works correct in the arrows like both ways right yep and then what did you text after that I just said thought you were all set and how did she respond she said with talking no that's all I have for that okay bring the lights back up so clearly with that last text her response was in response to you saying thought we were all set she said with talking no correct yes did that indicate to you that with flirting yes we're all done no I didn't read anything into it okay but you did read where she said with talking no correct yes uh and then you responded how I said hm are you sure did she respond no as a matter of fact the next time you saw her communic ated with her she was walking into the waterfall bar on the 29th early morning hours of the 20 late night hours of the 28th going to the early morning of the 29th with her boyfriend joh o'keef correct yes now you had discussed your flirtations if I can use that word that you had with Miss Reed with your friends at least some of them correct um I don't recall that no do you recall that you openly shared the details of your interest in this readed with your work supervisor at the doj well that was after I shared I shared what happened that she kissed me yes I did share that with her and that was with that was the first time that was with a person by the name of Kate Dow is that right that's correct and that was before January 29th yes um and that's because your interest in Karen Reed when you call it romantic or sexual or whatever your interest was something that was at least occupying your mind at that point correct no was occupying your mind enough to share it with your boss no I what I shared with my boss was the fact that she kissed me that was it did you discuss your flirtatious relationship with Karen Reed with Brian Albert at any point no never no so you were on a 4our drive in a snowstorm back from New York with Mr Reed I'm sorry with Mr Reid with Mr Albert um and your interest in Karen Reed never came up no even though he's a good friend yes just something I wouldn't talk about You' been drinking since about what time uh what what time that's a bad way ask it what time did you start drinking when when are we at Mr I'm sorry on the 20 on the 20 uh 28th when you got back from New York when did you start drinking well it wasn't until I swapped out vehicles and I went up to the hillside okay um that would have been give me a time frame 9ish 8ish it was Doc it was maybe in the area of 8:00 and what time do you think you got to Waterfall I couldn't say I don't it was after the hillside did before Brian Albert left Hillside did he tell you that John O'Keefe had been invited over to meet them at the waterfall no was there any particular reason why you changed your mind and left the hillside to go to the waterfall well I I think as I previously testified that it was because I didn't always take them up on their Offa and I usually did the Irish exit and I decided because of the weather and everything else and it had been a long day that I would down there and join them didn't have anything to do with you knowing that Karen Reed might be waterfall it couldn't have because I didn't know she or John o'keef would even be there I didn't know who was going to be there other than Brian's wife do you have any text messages with Brian about going to the waterfall I don't recall he he told me about it at the Hillside and once he got to the waterfall he got to the waterfall obviously before you did he did I think shortly before yes any text Communications between you and Brian Albert about who was at the waterfall or who was expected to come to the waterfall no not that I recall now you've already indicated and I don't think we need to go into a lot of detail about this but I want to ask you just in general uh the mood at the waterfall was good spirits correct it was great B was playing you did not see any sort of tension between John and Karen I did not um nobody seemed overly intoxicated no you would have had several drinks before you even got to the waterfall right I think it was three to four did you drink additionally at the waterfall I did yes did you drink whiskey or beer or what whiskey okay uh how many did do you think you had I couldn't put a number on it at least a couple and ultimately you left from there in your personal vehicle and drove over to that's the Jeep drove over to the waterfall correct I drove over to the waterfall I'm Sor was that the water left the waterfall drove over to 34 airw I did yes um when John walked in to the waterfall uh were you already there yes he greeted you you indicated correct yes I believe so Karen walked in with him yes but she did not greet you did she I think they kind of went like that different directions right yes did she greet you no right so she walked over toward the corner of the bar and John came over and greeted you and then walked over and joined her correct yes Karen didn't stop what she was doing once she was over in the corner of the bar and come over and say hi to you I didn't have any interaction with her that night no so safe to say that throughout that evening once she was sidled up next to John o'keef or friends she was with uh she never turned back around and came over and even acknowledged you correct that's correct so she basically ignored you the entire evening that's not how I interpret it no I didn't ask you how you interpreted it I asked you what she did did she ignore you or did she pay attention to you jaction you can go ahead and answer that did she ignore you no so she paid attention to you came over and said hello shake your hand gave you a hug well just because somebody didn't come over doesn't mean they ignored you did she do those three things hug what was the other thing say hello shake your hand give you a hug no she did not no she didn't do any of those things did she no it's like you didn't even exist I think that's dramatic no I I I don't look at it that way did she ignore you or no no she did not ignore me so she what did she do to not ignore you she was Direction with you can I answer now sure she in my opinion she was working the room talking to people saying hello catching up right the one person she didn't come over to talk to and say hello to and catch up with it's you well I don't I don't know that I was the only person but I was one of the people that she didn't say hello to yes she you sort of like a stranger I don't feel that way no she actually positioned herself away from from you at the other end of the table on the opposite side in the corner isn't that right I don't know where she was all night no did upset you that she ignored you or didn't pay attention to you I did not feel ignored and didn't upset me at all but it bothered you enough to send her a text didn't it no it was it was a FLIR tacer text it was just that was it it bothered you enough to send her a text that said um with six M's behind it okay and well correct well it wasn't like that it was um well that's it just um well like a well in the in the ground I think you know what I mean yeah I think you do too sir you meant um well when are you going to pay attention to me no that's not correct um well why are you ignoring me it's not correct um well am I chop liver Jackson all right that that sustained Mr Jackson let's move on at the end of the night the group basically discussed going back to Brian Albert's house is that right there was discussion at the table of like were we going to go to the pizza shop or were we going to go somewhere else and ultimately it was 34 Fair View before you left just to we're clear when you texted um well she ignored that TX to can you say that again when you texted her um well at waterfall she ignored that text too correct well that was the only text I sent that night to her yes okay she didn't respond that wasn't my question my question is she ignored the text corre well I don't know if she I I don't know what her mindset was if she purposely ignored the text or she didn't see it I don't know I didn't read into it did she ignore the text Mr Higgins I don't know did she respond to the text she did not respond got it so when everybody was leaving did you leave before they did John and Karen or did they leave before you did I don't know uh you said you were the first one back to Brian Albert's house correct yes safe to say you were one of the first ones to leave I was the first one to leave waterfall the waterfall probably I mean if you're the you know if everybody's hurting out and you're the first one to get there you're probably among the first to leave correct most likely okay um you never personally discussed going to 34 Fairview with certainly not with Karen Reed did you no and you never discussed it with John o'keef either did you no um You didn't say goodbye or walk over and give John a big hug or anything like that ement did you no you just left right that's what everybody was doing just leaving okay you too correct I did leave yes um and all you knew that at that point all you knew was that you were going over to 34 Fairview you did not who know who else was invited over to 34 Fairview my impression was that it was an open invitation and I was I planned on heading over there but you did not know who else was coming I had no idea who was coming and you didn't say goodbye to John correct I don't think I said goodbye to anybody and you didn't talk to him about coming over to 34th Fair no yet at 2:20 in the morning you texted John O'Keefe you coming here correct at 2:20 sorry 12:20 I did and that had three question marks behind it correct yes did you text Karen about coming over to 34 Fairview No so at 12:20 a.m. after you left the waterfall and made your way over to 34 Fairview you were more interested in getting John to come to 34 Fairview than you were to getting and getting Karen to come to 34 Fair no that's that's not how I would describe that but you didn't text Karen correct no I didn't but you did text John yes you've indicated that you took your Jeep your personal vehicle with the plow on it over to 34 Fairview correct yes and you were among the first to arrive because you were doing that thing with the the sort of playing around by plowing his driveway it was a sweep of the driveway yes um and then you indicated that you parked in front of the house correct I did I know you've been over this before but I'm going to ask you one sort of one final time so it's completely clear exactly where was your Jeep in front of that house by the mailbox okay can we have with the court permission exhib 66 okay this is a graphic representation of 34 Fair View um not a photograph uh just to orient you do you see what's depicted in ex 66 yes do you recognize it I do do you see the mailbox which is right there yes okay where was your G in relation to that mailbox so the back end of the Jeep the rear would have been about around equal with the uh mailbox and I was not blocking the driveway okay so you been there if the the right edge of that highlight is the mailbox mailbox being right there about right there on the street corre well that would have been the front of the Jeep we we a laser pointer is it would be the front okay so the front of the jeep was facing the flag hole towards trapman Street correct and the rear of the jeep was basically even with the mailbox strep or St it it was definitely past um the driveway yes okay um you indicated the plow was a 6 foot what inch plow I think it was a 68 6 meaning the width meaning the width yes how deep is that plow how deep like 2T 3T six inches I mean it's probably a few inches okay it's like it's light duty it's on a Jeep okay uh and it's obviously curved and to the right no it was it wasn't CED at all it was straight down okay so it's not like I'm I guess I'm picturing in my mind I don't know that I've ever seen one that the front of the Jeep is not parallel to the plow in other words it would plow stuff off to the right is that not right I'm not understanding what you're what you're trying to communicate to me how is it how is the plow positioned as it relates to the front end of the Jeep is it perfect perfectly parallel to the front end or is it caned one way or another so when you're driving um you're driving straight locally we you're not going to have to worry about overheating the Jeep I would just have the the Jeep the plow straight if I was on the highway for a long distance I'd be worried about overheating so I would can to the can to the plow tilted up so that air could get through the front grill so in other words you can control it I can yes how was it that night so how was it caned that night was it straight or caned it was it was straight and straight on all right um when you walked into 34 Fairview you indicated there were people congregated basically in the kitchen area correct there were some people in the kitchen area yes um how many people were at the high top table that you described uh initially when I walked in I believe there was uh Brian Jr and he was flanked by one possibly two females and you indicated that basically you were positioned in that area with your back to the door for most of the evening I was like kind of I would describe it as diagonally across from him and had my back to the door that I had come in which would be the Breezeway door but at some point you had moved out of that kitchen area with Brian Albert correct well briefly went and looked at some photos right so you moved out of that area with Brian Albert alone to go to a different room yes and I think his his wife Nicole might have popped in the room for a second but it was brief um did you have anything to drink while you at 34 Fairview well they when I got there they didn't have any whiskey uh I believe they might have put a bear or something else in front of me and you know I I knew it was going to be a short night there because I just wasn't gonna I'm not a be Drinker the you've indicated in in a prior testimony that you've never been upstairs in Brian's house correct when you say upstairs like you're talking like second floor correct yes no okay um you testified to that in a prior hearing is that right yes in May of 2023 yes and you said specifically quote I've never been upstairs so yes right um you understood when you gave that statement that you were under oath yes uh you were telling the truth yes same oath that you took here today correct yes you indicated that the photos that you saw were on the first floor living room area is that right I believe that's where they were yes so the only floor downstairs from the first floor would be what the basement and the only floor upstairs from the basement would be what the First wall so if someone were to describe going upstairs to look at the photos that you've described on the first floor where would they have to be to go upstairs to look at those photos are you saying on the first floor correct if the photos are on the first floor yeah and someone said we went upstairs to look at those photos where would they have to be I guess upstairs the people would have to be upstairs well the photos would be upstairs is that what you're saying where are the people where would the people have to be to go upstairs to the living room to look at the photos I'm not understanding the question if the photos are on the first floor Mr yes the only floor beneath it is the basement okay and someone says we went upstairs to look at the photos where would they have to be well who said they went upstairs all right so Mr Jackson you can say this for argument next question please if Brian Albert said you went upstairs to look at the photos where would you have to be jaction assisting now Brian Albert had a wait room someplace in the house right yes uh in a gym I guess he called it a home gym where was that in the basement had you ever been down to that basement before yes one time when was that that was during the twins um graduation party Summertime Summertime before summertime before yes summer of 2021 maybe so if Brian Albert testified that never been in the basement that would not be accurate objection sustained now you do recall giving testimony at another proceeding on June 1st 2023 correct yes and of course the same thing applied you were under oath is that right yes knew that it was a crime to lie under oath yes in that proceeding during the course of that proceeding you were asked who was in the house and who you saw come into the house correct yes and during the course of that testimony you admitted that you observed a tall dark-haired male enter the Albert house that night correct I believe that was in reference to ask to somebody's brother in a pickup I don't know if that was during all I'm asking you Mr Higgins is did you say that did you say tall darkhaired male entered the house while you were there I said they might have did you say they might have yes and that was in reference to somebody's brother your H it yes isn't it true that you indicated that a male showed up who may have been juliean Nagel's brother correct I said might have yes right but there was no question in your mind that a male did in fact show up and you described him as tall and darkhaired right yes you were asked a male showed up where and you answered quote showed up at the house that I didn't know I I think he was there very briefly I just I was paying I was half paying attention to it question did that male come inside the house answer I believe he did do you remember that yes so a male did come in the house that night correct no I said I believe he did I wasn't sure well when you testified at the prior hearing you were asked so you saw someone else come question answer somebody else yes in quote that's what you testified to under oath wasn't it is that in reference to that what page are you on Mr Jackson page 48548 yes I may apprach yes thank you look at the top part highl [Music] Mr Higgins do you have that in mind I do may approach yes you were asked the question quote did that male come inside the house you answered I believe he did question so you saw someone else come answer somebody else yes correct yes but I also said that I wasn't paying attention I realized that you want to explain your answer I've asked you a very simple question was that your testimony in of another proceeding yes it was had another proceeding which you were under yes it was okay you also said that you only remember seeing that person come in briefly and it looked like he was having a conversation with the two girls briefly correct yes you were asked how long was the person in there roughly and you said it was quick I don't less than a couple of minutes I mean it was quick correct yes and then you were asked what he looked like and you said I feel like they were a little bit taller they had dark hair correct yes so you testified that a tall darkhaired male came into the house at least briefly in your testimony correct yes approximately when in the timeline of events did that unidentified male into the residence I don't know the time frame it was it would have been while I was there when you gave your statement to the Massachusetts State Police you didn't tell them about a tall dark-haired male coming into the resident at 34 Fairview did you on February 3rd I don't recall you were specifically asked by Ada La when you testified before the state court grand jury on April 28th 2022 who else was present correct yes and you never mentioned a PA dark-haired male coming into the house did you no however on June 1st 2023 at this other proceeding you were specifically instructed at the start of your testimony that it was a crime to give materially false statements in that proceeding correct yes and that's the proceeding in which you admitted that there was a tall darkhaired male who came in the house yes or no yes or no it was can you answer that yes or no no I can't your honor next question Mr Jackson the quotations that I or the quotes that I just read you and that you just looked at yes that was from the June 1 2023 hearing wasn't I don't know May yes that's what we' just read and that's another page just take a look at that page and see if you see a date on it the first page I see it yes I approach yes what's the date sir June 1st 2023 yes how long did you stay at the Alber Albert residence in total from the time you got there till the time you left maybe like a half hour less than an hour and what time did you leave uh say 12:30 you said I I think I said between 12:30 and 1 1:00 a.m. uh and you indicated that you pretty much didn't say goodbye to anybody right at the house correct I just kind of left I said see you later w't turn around left a matter of fact at that same hearing that we just looked at uh your statement was I made a Bine out of there correct I don't know if that's the verbage I used but I left why the rush why did you leave so quick because it was a long day and I just wanted to go home except you didn't go home did you no I went back to Canton PD right so it wasn't such a long day that you actually drove home you went back to the Canton Police Department at 1 or 1:30 in the morning correct to move Vehicles correct well let's talk about you leaving um you walked out that side the side Breezeway door correct yes you walked down the driveway yes there's nothing obstructing your view at that point of the lawn to your right correct I didn't look over there but I would not think so between you and the flag pole in other words there wasn't some mound of dirt something obstructing your view you you could see straight across if you wanted to correct if I wanted to Yes um it's just basically a flat grassy lawn with a light dusting of white powder snow on it right I don't know how much I don't know how much snow was but there was snow there yeah you indicated that it wasn't even enough to stick to the to the pavement at that well that's when I got there yes well you only stayed less than an hour right that's correct so I'm assuming it didn't dump three feet in an hour correct I think we can both agree that it's not three it would have been 3 feet now right so it would have been a light dusting snow more snow than there was there how many how far would you say it was from the edge of the driveway over to your Jeep from where the back of my jeep was parked correct maybe a foot or two or could have been even with the the edge of the driveway oh no no I'm sorry my it's probably a bad question on my part you left the house as you started to walk down the driveway toward the your Jeep how long the walk is that across the yard to the you know down the driveway to get to your Jeep short 30t maybe okay um during the course of you walking out the door heading to your Jeep you didn't see out anything out of the ordinary in the yard correct no you certainly didn't see a body in the yard of course not now you get in your car and it's facing directly toward the flag pole correct it's facing directly up the street flag pole would be off to the one o00 right so just a few degrees off to the right the flag pole is correct it's off to the right just a few degrees I don't know how many degrees but it's off to the right well you just said one one o'clock you're former military guy right I am okay one o'clock means one o'clock on on a watch 12:00 is due north or right in front of you 1:00 is just a few degrees to the right correct that's what you meant at the 1 o' yes okay so you didn't see a body when you got in your Jeep no I did not then you turned the engine on correct and the wipers yes and the lights yes and the lights lit up everything in front of you correct yes still didn't see a body did you no I did not sitting in the driver's seat you put the car in gear and you begin to roll forward right yes but there was a plow on the ground that scraped for a foot right yes so you picked it back up yes looked out the windshield to make sure the plow is situated and continue to roll forward correct I knew it was up when I continued to drive and as you continue to drive you're looking ahead of you and probably to your left to make sure that there's no oncoming cars right well I knew there was no oncoming cars I was just driving forward right so your focus is directly in front of you on the road yes and everything in your peripheral vision right in front of you as well correct yes nothing obstructing your view I mean other than snow on the car nothing obstructing your view outside toward the lawn wasn't another car parked there no no I didn't there was no vehicles in front of me no it was the the the roadway was relatively empty there was no cars and you didn't see a body then either did you I did not and as you drive past that flag pole with everything lit up and everything in your peripheral vision you still didn't see a body on that lawn did you I did not you're a former firefighter is that right yes that put you in a position of being a first responder yes and you're currently law enforcement officer yes uh that puts you in the position of being a first responder correct I'm also a tactical medic yes which means that you have training to be a an observer you're a trained Observer more than the average person correct yes you look for things out of the ordinary you look for things that don't belong as an investigator former firefighter first responder correct yes and you did not see a 217b man bleeding out on the side of the road in the lawn or in the yard just to your right by that flag pole correct if I did I I would have done something to help him I asked you if you saw one no did not and that's because there was no body there correct I didn't see anything because if there was a body there you certainly would have seen that objection where exactly did you go when you left 34 Fairview I went back back to the Canton Police Station when you were asked that on direct examination you said you weren't sure where you went when you left 34 either home or to C PV no that's that's that's not what I testified to did something jog your memory where where you went that is not what I testified to that was in that was in relation to where did I go after I left 34 faar viiew the next morning why did you go to Canton Police Department that night that morning what's the question why did you go to the Canton Police Department that morning the morning when I the morning when I left 34 fear viiew the Friday into Saturday correct to move two vehicles there's been quite an evolution of that story over the years has there not I don't understand the question all right let's talk about that for a second you had an initial interview with Massachusetts State Police on February 3rd 2022 yes correct and you indicated during the course of that interview which was just a couple of days five days after the events in question that you left Brian Albert's house went to Canton PD to quote fulfill some administrative obligations end quote correct you later said when you testified in front of the grand jury on April 28th that you went and went to Canton PD to do quote administrative work correct yes you never mention I said administrative things you said administrative work was your testimony and your transcrip I believe I believe it was things but okay okay can we agree Mr Higgins that you didn't mention anything about moving cars around correct well that would be administrative So when you say I went to Canton PD to do administrative work or administrative obligations you meant moving your car your personal vehicle yes okay um although you didn't say that you were going there to move your personal view right no I said I did I didn't move my personal vehicle I moved work vehicles or either one you just traded off Vehicles moved them out of the way right I moved to the purpose for going back there was to move two work vehicles and the reality is you had gotten there you had gotten Canton PD uh earlier in the afternoon and actually moved some other vehicles traded Vehicles didn't you I swapped vehicles out that's correct right and you left the vehicles that you now claim you had to go move exactly where they were even though you knew oblig was coming correct that is correct yes so you didn't move the cars a few hours earlier knowing that you just have to come back and move those cars a few hours later I was more concerned to go eat and have a drink because it had been a long day so wouldn't you want to move those cars early on so you wouldn't have to go all the way back to Canton and play uh you know parking lot with these cars in the middle of the night not really Mr Higgins you weren't actually at Canton PD to do administrative work at 1:30 in the morning were you I was I was moving the vehicles I'm sure it's on video we'll talk about the video in just a second um you entered the Canton Police Station through which door I believe it was the door to the right of the sally port as you come in the main entrance and you made note of who was on duty that night correct I didn't make note I walked by I saw somebody sitting in the control room and then just went about my business so you immediately knew that your friend officer good was working dispatch right so do you need to hear something on really hot over there so why don't we take a five minute qu all right put we [Music] just window you over here you want to put it there so why don't we all stay here and just see if we can do may be seated go do this you know I'll go over there Nancy Paul will do it you are muted [Music] he excuse me e need to see how she's doing all rise for the court please I go downstairs B absolutely SE [Music] hey there Karen Reed trial Watchers this is a law on crime legal alert Google incognito tracked users browsing data without their knowledge yep well Mast Tor Alliance one of our legal sponsors is actually helping users file for compensation due to issues surrounding Google users privacy through their Incognito browser so if you've used Google incognito anytime since 2016 you can start your claim in less than 10 questions at Incognito claims.com LCL live [Music] what no for 2 yeah okay this just has to go in okay what what wasn't there you l [Music] great okay all right yes e [Music] I do I'll down for you email me that and then I'll make sure you yeah all right yeah that flash drive I left back I'm on today my little add okay thank you we make it sh [Music] for for [Music] yeah for [Music] St [Music] sh [Music] than one Tom SK [Music] right [Applause] that e what oh I remember the old days we have the AC's on you'd have to turn the AC's off the room would get incredibly hot when we did grinded here in the main courtroom you know just a lot of people take their sh their jackets off and stuff like that is so hot throwback yeah a little throwback like 1992 but that was the old days we' have to turn off the AC's for when we were in trial because there were two e e you are unmuted [Music] [Music] course con session please be seated [Music] okay thank you let's bring Mr Higgins back thank you thank [Music] you all right Mr Jackson thank you uh Mr Higgins if you went back to Kenton PD at 1:00 1:30 in the morning you would certainly be in a position to monitor anything that was happening at Canton PD at the time that at least you were there correct no I mean you would be inside the building correct the access to dispatch and anything else that was happening around that floor that area correct I did not go in a dispatch you would have access to the interior of the police station at that time if you went back to campon py at 1:30 in the morning correct I'd have access you could see if there was any activity going on any calls call outs things of that nature I wasn't I didn't have access to that and I wasn't looking for it not that you were looking for it Mr Higgins my question is more simple than that if you were there you'd know what was going on inside the building no so if you walked in you would just be completely oblivious to anything that was happening for instance if Troopers started amassing to go out to a call you wouldn't see that objection the objection sustained ask it differently if you were able to monitor You' be in a position to monitor what was happening at the station around 1:30 in the morning when you were over there correct no so um how long did it take you to get home from Kenton PD a little longer from when I after I moved the vehicles correct I don't know I mean it could have been 15 minutes it could have been 20 minutes you live alone I do uh you did then yes uh what did you do when you got home uh I think I had something to eat maybe a couple more drinks and you went to bed was either on the couch or in the bed watching the news in any of the prior testimony that you've given in this case have you ever indicated ever that you slept on the couch that night I don't know well you reviewed your testimony before well those those would be the two those would be the two options okay I didn't ask you about your options I asked you to review your testimony before you testify today yes okay when you reviewed your testimony previous to coming in here today did you ever testify you slept on the couch that night no I slept in my bed but I could have started somewhere else did you ever testify in the previous hearing you started somewhere else not that I know did you ever mention a couch in any of your description about what you did when you went home that night not that I recall as a matter of fact what you did mention under questioning in a different hearing was that you may have gotten something to eat then went to bed put your stuff on the nightstand next to your bed correct that would be the routine yes [Applause] um you did not make or receive any calls after returning home that night no um you were clear when you went to sleep in your prior testimony that you put both your work and your personal phone you had two at the time correct yes a a personal and a and a work cell phone right yes you put them both on your bedside table because that's what you do every night is that right um most often yes um as a matter of fact you were asked whether or not you have a char Charing station uh and you said yeah it's right on my bedside I don't know that I don't have a charging station right you said no bedside in other words keep your phone by your bedside on your bedside table usually uh you also testified that you did not use your phone that night to go on social media correct that's correct you indicated that you don't go on you didn't you know you didn't go on social media because you don't have social media you don't use it that that much I don't you said I don't have the gram I'm guessing that means Instagram correct cor that is correct we don't use Snapchat and quote don't do those things correct that's correct all right so you testified that the first call you received after returning home on the 29th was a call from Chief burkowitz just before 7 a.m. which woke you up is that right it was it was around 6:30ish I think okay uh your testimony previously was at some point at some point before 7 a.m. that call was the one that woke you up yes and it turns out Mr Higgins that that was a lie wasn't it no it wasn't a lie when you were asked that question at a previous hearing you didn't know that the person questioning you had your phone records did you I assume they did and you were thereafter confronted with those phone records correct I was asked about them yes and those phone records established that you and Brian Albert actually exchanged not one but two phone calls at 2:22 a.m. that morning at a time when you claimed you were in bed asleep correct I have no recollection of any phone calls May I approach you on yes apprach yes thank you take look at those two documents and tell me if you recognize at least the top one do they have a page number for me to follow or no I was just asking this little I don't think we introduced them and no they don't have a page number but I'm going to ask that they be marked for identification at least at this point do you recognize those yes may I approach yes these are you know what I'm going to if I don't if it's okay with the court maybe witness maintain those documents sure I'd like to have those two documents marked only for identification with the Court's permission okay as one exhibit uh we can do it as one exhibit that's fine okay you please hand those yes thank you may I inquire yes Mr Higgins you see the document on the lower right it has a page number or there's an Al a numeric uh indicator 01770 other words 1770 on the lower right hand corner in the right I mean in the red says 0771 look at the next page just out of order am I missing something right over top it's okay it's okay uh I'll use the one with QQ and the one with 1771 uh because the the other numbers when you're referencing them when you're referencing them when I'm referencing them okay take a look at the the one that's marked with the QQ I see you've seen that document before correct I think I've seen it maybe on a screen not not in my hand that was a uh these were the records that were shown to you at a prior hearing yes um and you acknowledged that at least the one Mark QQ is a record of your calls correct it has my name my telephone number correct and and it indicates that on January 29th 2022 at 20 at 222 and 35 seconds you received a call from Brian Albert duration of 1 second correct yes in other words Brian Albert called you at 222 and 35 seconds but it looks like you missed the call correct I see the one second call yes there's a second call just below that on the same date at 222 and 52 seconds from you to Brian Albert do you see that one yes and the duration of that call is 22 seconds seconds correct I see that yes so 17 seconds after you missed a call according to these records from Brian Albert you called him back and there was a call lasting 22 seconds is that right that's what the records say may I approach yes [Music] so the fact is you were speaking to Brian Albert in the middle of the night approximately 3 hours before Mr O'Keefe's body was found in his yard correct no that's not correct and that was five minutes before 2:27 a.m. when there was a Google search for how long to die in P correct Jack and then of course you lied about that under oath in that prior proceeding by saying I don't remember this phone call jaction did you in fact tell the truth at the prior proceeding when you said I don't remember that phone call I always tell the truth did you lie under oath sir no I did not would you tell us if you did jaction your H sustained you acknowledge that there's a 22 second phone call in your phone records correct that's what's reflected by the record and 22 seconds is quite amount of time would you agree it's 22 seconds as a matter of fact it's about this long with the Court's permission the court does not give permission that's argument Mr Jackson if we were to count off 22 seconds it's an uncomfortably long time is it not no it's long enough to have a conversation isn't it I didn't have a conversation is 22 seconds long enough to have a conversation no you can't a human being can't have a conversation in 22 seconds Sur they could I don't think it's anything of substance okay so that's my question is it 22 seconds long enough to have a conversation I don't agree with it no now when you were asked about this and you were shown these records that prior hearing you had an explanation for what that 222nd call may have been and what the prior call may have been correct yes what was your explanation well I used a phrase that people people commonly used as a butt dial so you think it's possible that you may have butt dialed Brian Albert for a 22 second call that you're not aware of I think it's possible that he could have been inadvertently called back but I have no recollection of that nor did I have any conversation with anybody but you admitted that you lived alone correct Mr Higgins that's correct you have an iPhone at the time yes matter of fact that number for reflecting those records is in fact or was in fact an iPhone is that right yes you already indicated under oath that you don't sleep with your iPhone you keep it on your bedside table is that right most often yes there's nobody nobody else in your room is that right that's correct and you had your ringer on because you got you were awakened the next morning by a call from Chief burwitz right yes the Ringo was on when somebody calls you and you miss the call there's notification shows up on that iPhone isn't that right uh I don't know how mine set up at the time I don't know if you open up your phone app and you go to recents it shows all the missed calls correct I think you can get to them yes and you know that the iPhone does not automatically call people back that is not a thing right miss a call from someone it's not just going to automatically r-ring them I yes I think we both know that yes so to call somebody back you have to go on your iPhone open it up from a locked position navigate to a phone application then navigate to a contact and then make a call correct jaction sustained you can break it down sure in order to call somebody back if you've missed a call you first have to unlock your iPhone you would have to yes you can do that either through face ID or through a four or six digigit passcode right yes which don't tell me the code but did you have a four or a six-digit passcode locking your iPhone at the time I don't know if it was a digit code or a face ID well if you have a face ID you have to have a digit code as well right I guess so okay did you open your phone with your face ID or a multi-digit code I have no recollection of answering the phone or calling anybody back you also have to navigate once the phone is unlocked you have to navigate to the phone app correct I don't know necessarily if you if you if you unlocked it with your face if it would be right there I don't I've never thought about it once you unlock that phone app you have to manipulate the phone on the screen with your finger in order to make a call correct you would have to hit at least one button I guess at least one right yes so that's three or four interactions with the phone that have to be physically undertaken to just make one call right but I didn't make any calls so how' your butt di I didn't make any calls I have no recollection of any calls nor did I speak with anybody after you were shown these phone records at that prior Hearing in that hearing at least you finally admitted that you did in fact call Brian Albert back but this time you claimed the two of you just sort of sat in silence isn't that right jaction so going to sustain sustain it in that form you can ask it appropriately Mr Jackson did you ever previously testify that you did in fact make the call but you did not have a conversation during the course of the call what I think I testified was something must have happened but I didn't have any phone call you remember being asked quote did you call him back in quote and you answered yes and then there was a question was a series of questions there that's that's that's only a fragment of what I said I'm I'm not done yet Mr Higgins can you answer my question yes to the question did you call him back your answer was yes correct I think it was kind of I must have then you were asked well the answer was yes and then there was a colloquy back and forth where you spoke over each other's words right it was dialogue back and forth about this whole thing yes may approach yes ma yes you see the pink highlighted question and the pink highlighted answer yes what's the question please read it for me did you did you call him back what's the answer yes thank you may I approach yes [Music] you then said a little bit further in that same conversation I did not have a conversation correct I did not have a conversation with anybody and the question following that was you just listened to the phone what someone was telling you answer it's possible that the phone picked up on the other end and nobody said anything and then I terminated the call in quote that's what you said at the under other hearing under correct yes or no can I see it sure yes Mr R same thank you the bottom portion in pink you can read that answer to yourself please you have that in mind sir no can I have a minute please may I yes thank you does that refresh your recollection about which how you answered that question yes and your answer was it's possible that the phone picked up on the other end and nobody said anything and then I terminated the call that's the that's the only thing meaning it's meaning it's possible it could have happened it's possible it could have happened that you had a 22 second call with Brian Albert correct I did not have a 22 second call with Brian Albert there was no conversation you've had some time to think about this 2:22 a.m. call correct since that last testimony some time to think about it yeah I haven't really thought about it no so for over a year you haven't even considered the fact that you were caught with a phone record lying about not having a conversation with Brian Albert at 2:22 in the morning objection Mr Higgins what was so important that you and Brian Albert needed to discuss something at 2:22 in the morning there was no discussion I never talked to Brian Albert then why the 22 second phone call Sir objection assain I want to talk about what you did after you woke up on January 29th 2022 that was obviously a memorable day in Your Mind Correct was a sad day the very first person you spoke to after woke waking up was F Well I believe I said I got the call from Chief burwitz not my question say that again who's the first person you spoke to on the phone that morning when you woke up Brian elet whose idea was it for you to drive to Brian Albert's house that morning it was my idea was it important to you to speak with Brian Albert in person rather than over text or phone call no it was important to support the people that were there so of course you drove over to his house had an opportunity to speak to him in person without any law enforcement presence correct I was there with everybody not just Brian Albert and Brian Albert was in the house and you were in the house right that's correct so you had access to him and others without any law enforcement there is that right that's correct as soon as you got off the phone with Brian Albert that morning who did you call at 7:22 a.m. if you were I think I I think I might have called Chief oritz back so as soon as you got off the phone with Brian Albert first thing in the morning the next call you made was to Chief berlitz is that right yes because he was the he had called me first yes I called him back did you request from Chief burkowitz any information that he may have had concerning the investigation surrounding joh O'Keefe being found at 34th Fairview that morning no were you trying to see how much law enforcement knew right away Absolut I didn't even know what happened were you trying to gather information about what happened so that you would know what happened objection I'll allow it you were trying to do no your hna what did Chief burkwitz tell you about his knowledge of John O's body being found just after 6: a.m. jaction did you tell chief burkowitz that you had been with joh O'Keefe and you were at the crime scene the night before objection suain you can ask that differently did you inform chief burwitz that you had been with John o'keef the night before jackon I'll allow it I believe I may have told him at some point that I saw John at the waterfall did you tell chief burwitz that You' been at 34 Fairview I believe I did did you tell him that your vehicle was parked just feet away from where John's body was discovered no because I didn't know where he was discovered did you tell chief burwitz that you and Brian Albert had had a call at 222 in the morning jaction did you tell chief burkowitz that you had been flirting with joh O'Keefe's girlfriend in the weeks prior to his death no did you ever tell Chief burkowitz about the nature of your interest in this reading no I don't believe so did you tell chief burkowitz that you had seen Mr O'Keefe and Miss Reed the night before and that Miss Reed had ignored you Jacks s you can break that down Mr Jackson thank you if I may have just a moment you indicated just a second ago that when you when I asked did you tell chief burtz that your jeep was parked just feet away from where John O'Keefe's body was found you said I had no idea where John O'Keefe's body was found correct that's correct you just spoken with Brian Albert right he he said in front of the house all he said was John M was found in front of the house he didn't say right outside on my front lawn believe he said he was found out in front of his house unresponsive okay if he was out in front of his house then you would know because your jeep was also parked out in front of his house your Jeep would just be feet away from him correction did you tell chief burkowitz that you had texted John O'Keefe to have him come over to 34 Fairview just hours before he was discovered dead in the yard no did you think any of that was important when talking to the chief of police of the Canton Police Department I'll let him have it no I didn't there was there was no reason to tell him you've been an investigator for some 15 years and you were a firefighter for years before that correct yes you're very familiar with some of the tools that are used in conducting modern investigations correct yes you'd agree that searching electronic devices and phones is an incredibly important investigative tool that modern investigators use correct jaction in that formal sustainment are you aware that searching electronic devices is an important part of Investigations jaction are you aware of that sir do you agree with that I've I've utilized uh phone data during the course of my investigations at time yes okay so another way to put that is obviously phone data and electronic data is an important part of Investigation assist what time do you believe you got to Brian Albert's house that morning when you after you received the phone calls and woke up what time did you make your way back over to Brian Albert's house maybe around 7 7:15 in that area was there any law enforcement presence there when you arrived I can't recall specifically there could have been one police car I'm not positive did any officer ever ask you to take a look at your vehicle at what time that time at any but actually at any time no I I to my knowledge no nobody from law enforcement associated with the investigation had ever asked to take a look at my vehicle so they certainly didn't ask that day correct on the 20 what I'm saying is I to my knowledge nobody has ever asked me that right so that's my point I'm just trying to break it down you'll break it you you want to tell me every instance when somebody could have asked me correct okay on the 29th where you asked whether or not your vehicle could be searched searched or inspected what do you what do you mean either one well I would consider a search the inside of the vehicle more so than the outside I would consider the outside more of an inspection I would have been happy to show them it I'm sure you would have I'm asking did they ask no they didn't ask to search it they have to inspect it no um we met with Troopers who was it that you met with on the the the 3rd of February Troopa proa and troa vukan did either Trooper Proctor or Trooper buck asked to inspect your vehicle otherwise search it not to my recollection and to this day nobody's from massachusett State Police has ever indicated that they want to inspect your vehicle no when you entered the house that morning uh Brian Albert was there Nicole Albert Jen mccab Matt mccab Brian Albert Jr and Julie Albert were all there I'm sorry had Julie Albert gotten there yet she came after me okay so at some Point all the people that I just tipped off they were all inside the house Brian Elbert Jun Nicole Brian Matt and Jen you all discussed the incident together correct I wouldn't I wouldn't describe it that way no did each of you discuss your own perspectives about what had happened the night before in the early morning hours jaction I'll allow it people were in sh sh at the table trying to figure out what happened the math didn't make sense John and the defendant never showed up people would were in shock trying to figure out what to say right no and you were all talking within your shot of each other right we were all there in the kitchen talking together at this meeting uh and these were friends and family correct excuse me these were friends and family family amongst themselves and you being a friend these are friends and family inside that house discussing this incident correct yes so at this meeting you actually instructed Jennifer McCade to call P Canton PD and ask someone to come back objection sustained is to that form you can ask it differently at some point did an officer come back to reinw Jen mccab yes Jen mcab had told you that she had information about something that Miss Reed had said correct ja I'll allow it did she tell you that that morning she didn't specifically tell me anything she made a statement at the table to the group of people that and she clearly seemed like she was in shock she was upset and she made a statement something to the effect that Karen had opined that she had had hit John but she actually said was I hope I didn't hit him correct jaction it's not what I heard no that who did you who did you ever tell this to I've reported that that she said I hit him yes I've reported it what you reported was she said Karen said I hope I didn't hit him and you said oh you need to tell Kon PD that isn't that right no I don't think that's what I said no you're sure about that as you are about that 222 call right objection Mr Higgins what time did you leave Brian Albert's house um it would have been I believe when Sergeant lank arrived and I think Lieutenant Gallagher might have been with him you weren't scheduled to work that Saturday correct no a matter of fact you weren't on duty at all no I wasn't but you didn't go home and get some sleep or run errands you went directly to Canton PD from 34 Fairview yet again didn't we who could sleep after somebody just was discovered like that did you go home home or did you I don't believe I did no I believe there might have been a stop at Canton PD before I went home as a matter of fact you didn't just stop at Canton PD you spent the entire day at campon PD on the 29th didn't you I don't know that I spent the entire day there no well you've got a key card right I do have a key card and that key card logs swipes that's correct so it logs where you go access to and access inside the K PD correct yes when you got to kanton PD and you're telling this jury you you don't know how long you spent there I don't know how long I spent there I don't know if I left and I came back I don't I don't recall so if the records indicate that you were there from 9:00 a.m. is after five I don't know how the records would indicate that I'll show you in a second okay while you were at Canton PD did you speak again to Brian Albert I don't remember while you're at kanton PD did you speak again to Chief burwitz most likely while you're at Canton PD did you speak with Brian Albert's brother Kevin Albert I don't believe so Conor may I approach this one [Music] yeah this particular area but I just want to see if may I approach yes thank you that's 167 page of document you a glance through obviously don't read the whole thing just glance through it and tell me if you recognize what that is so it says cant police all events log by day so don't read it out loud please do you recognize it okay may I appro yes this appears to be a log of P swipes in and around u k PD correct yes and it's in Reverse chronological order in other words I didn't note that but okay okay uh you acknowledge that that is a record of the key swipes that everybody uses moving in and around Kon PD going through doors every place that needs a a key swipe is logged I would assume that's what that is yes um it shows that you entered Canton PD for the first time on the 29th at 1:27 a.m. uh does that sound about right when you got there you say to move your cars it's possible all right um it shows that you were granted access to floor Corridor 227 does that mean anything to you no what about floor Corridor 226 on the second floor second floor would make sense because I went in the building and then to the second floor um let may have just a moment your honor sure by the way did Brian Albert ever mention what time the officers cleared the scene no without telling me the the substance of the conversation did he tell you when he talked to you at 7:20 or not that not that not that I recall no but you remember by the time you got there the scene had basically been cleared there wasn't much of emergency vehicles crime scene tape nothing like that I didn't see fire trucks I I might Asar a a cruiser I I can't be sure I don't recall you're not sure about that either sorry I'm not not sure about even seeing a cruiser correct not 100% no certainly we're not contacted by a law enforcement officer who took your name and ID or anything like that no no no parked and walked in the house yes you want to may approach one more time yes same thing I'd like to have that document marked uh as next in order B Pages it represents B Pages 2850 to 3016 all right so marked for identification is there an agreement this is coming in Mr L there is not no all right so that's marked for identification not next to order thank you sorry thank you Mr Higgins if you will I'm sorry are we ready thank you may I proceed yes Mr Higgins if you'll look at Bates page 3015 which actually is in order that's not reverse chronologic the second to the last page I have it one can you take a look at the eighth entry from the bottom I see it does that indicate uh that this all occurred on 12922 this entry at least well I mean I only on that eighth entry I see that that's that's associated with my name I don't know what the other ones are associated with right it would be other individuals in K PD I mean this is the entire log for 129 right okay but but what all I'm saying is that just my name is next to that I don't see any other name so right okay so 129 2022 I'm just trying to orient you at 120 I'm sorry 127 and 52 seconds I see access granted Brian Higgins rear entry to secure Corridor rear entry to secure Corridor correct yes all right so that appears to be what the the log entry or the key swipe entry looks like when it's logged correct yes if you look at page 2967 I'm sorry I said it backwards 2976 okay take a look at you said 2976 that's Bates page 2976 that's the bottom right hand I see it yes look at the time entry for 9:23 and 39 seconds 923 and what 39 and that's on 29 76 should be right give me the time again please we do it this way may I approach yes this an exact copy yeah this time's all over the place my apologies okay all right thank you at 92339 I'm sorry if you got that in mind I do I see it it's highlighted at 9233 9 that shows that you were granted access to the sally port to front exit front entry to Sally Port correct yes there's only one sally port at Canton PD correct yes and there's a door on each side of the sally port two bay doors right two bay doors on each side yes and then there's a a pass through personal pass through door as well yes may I approach our yes I want to try to speed this up just a bit um because it's small print reverse chronological order on page 2976 there's also an entry same page should be right above that 92350 showing that you uh you were granted access and booking to sallyport as well correct okay 2976 what was the time page yes about maybe 6 entries above 6 entries up you'll look for time 923 and 50 seconds I see yes all right and that shows that you were granted access to the sallyport and then from sallyport to booking correct says booking to sallyport sallyport to booking okay so that's key swipe you entering into the Sally booking or FR booking yes could you rep the question course [Music] course e [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] okay may I inquire your honor yes uh that indicate I have no idea what the last question was I'll see if I can make a new one up at 9:23 and 502s in the morning um you were granted access booking to sallyport and sallyport to booking meaning swipe the key card go in the door going from booking to Sal yes okay uh I don't want to belabor this because we could get bogged down into it all day long would you have any quarrel if those logs indicated that you were moving in and around Canton PD at 928 953 953 954 954 1140 Etc we can look at every one of them if you want to well that does it refresh your recollection it would not be uncommon for me to move around Canton PD at various times or dates right middle of the night during the day but just because I I I swiped in somewhere and then you have a swipe at the end of the day doesn't mean I was there the whole day I could have left I could have come back and I truly don't have a recollection but I I'm pretty sure I wasn't there all day fair enough if we moved from 11:40 to 11:44 11:45 11:47 uh 11 51 1152 and then jump to 205 would that be an explanation where you might have gone out for lunch you'll have in 52 could have okay come back if there's a 205 and 56 entry then obviously you're there right if if if the card was swiped I was there I mean you're not giving that you're not giving that card to anybody else no I'm not no way right let's just look at 2905 because I want you to be comfortable 20 Page 2905 and let's look at that 205 and 56 entry I'm at 2905 where would you like me to look about right there basically middle of the page hey I approach this might be a little easier highlighted before you I see it okay so that would indicate that you were back at Kenton PD at at least 20556 and you were granted access sallyport to front door correct that's what it says yes okay um at 3:10 p.m. you called Brian Albert's brother Kevin Albert correct I don't know that's possible okay if I mean I don't remember every phone call I made that day understood do you remember talking to Kevin Albert I don't so you don't remember what you discussed with him no no do you remember that it was a 12-minute phone call no I don't I don't remember having any phone call but I'm sure it's possible that we spoke do you remember Kevin Albert providing you any information about the ongoing investigation into joh O'Keefe's death no did you ask him about additional information concerning joh O'Keefe's death no were you providing details back to Brian Albert that you were receiving while at Canton PD absolutely not no do you recall that two minutes after you cleared the call with Kevin Albert you then called Brian Albert it's it's possible so I think the question was do you remember do you remember that you were on a there was a lot of phone calls made that day it was it was an upsetting day I spoke to multiple people at multiple times I I don't have a recollection I'm sorry I approach briefly yes thank you just to close this Loop that appears to be this your phone record correct yes and it appears that you made a call at 3:10 for 12 minutes with Kevin Albert correct yes 310 + 12 is 322 correct yes you clear the call about 322 is that right yes then it shows a 324 phone call to Brian uh I'm sorry Brian Albert then calls you at 324 correct yes and you two speak for six minutes is that right 6 minutes 5 Seconds yes I approach yes is that a fresher recollection that you made those calls I based on the record yes um was that just a coincidence that you were talking to Brian Albert and Kevin Albert within minutes of one another yeah I mean there was a lot going on that day people were upset I and and I don't remember the phone calls I don't deny making the phone calls I just don't remember them do you remember providing information that you were learning from Kevin Albert to Brian Albert absolutely not and then may your yes T record if you look just below those phone calls to Kevin Albert and Brian Albert there two additional phone calls that you had with Chief burwitz and then Brian Albert again correct yes Mr Higgins it looks an awful lot like you're gleaning information from C PD were you doing that jackon so I sustain the objection in that form you can ask one part of that question sure were you getting any information from Canton PD no I wasn't did you provide any information to Brian Albert no I did not based on any conversations or conduct at Canton PD no I approach yes but you were in fact on the phone with all of those interested parties throughout the day you'll agree I was answer that objection you I yes they're friends and was on the phone with him yes and sir you were not on duty that day correct no you are not a Canton police officer correct that's correct you not assigned to this investigation in any formal capacity were you I was not as a matter of fact you're a witness in a homicide investigation that's your only role in this correct that's correct but they're still my friends yes and yet you're still having conversations with Kevin Albert at Canton PD while you're at Canton PD correct not about this and you're having having conversations with Chief burwitz of Canton PD while you're at Canton PD correct I had conversations with him but not about this now and you're consistently through the day calling Brian Albert aren't you I had conversations with Brian hbert Albert John was founded on his lawn yes of course I had phone conversations with him I want to take you back for a second to a couple of other entries including one at 357 one at 358 and one at 407 I'm going to draw your attention to 2885 2886 once you have the pages I'll give you the times once again 2885 2885 and 2886 we'll start with 2886 and then backward okay first entry is at 357 and 54 seconds 357 and 54 seconds I see it Brian Higgins booking to sallyport correct it says Brian Higgins communication to pedestrian sallyport communication to pedestrian sallyport look at at the one just above it that's 35824 look at 35754 or the one probably is going to be just below it it's reversed you said 35754 correct correct that's what I just read got it look at five six entries below at 35736 3 5736 I see it access granted Brian Higgins booking to sallyport sallyport to booking then there's one more on page 2885 look for 40747 40747 correct I have it access granted Brian Higgins booking to sallyport booking to sallyport and there's no record in that document of you exiting correct that's just booking to sell for yes I don't yeah there there's no record I don't know if it records you going there's no record Cor correct not that I can see here no I'm sorry and you're aware that that's about 90 minutes before Karen Reed's SUV was delivered to that sallyport correct no I'm not aware of that are you aware that her car ended up in that sallyport where you were at 536 I'm aware her car ended up there yes are you aware that there was other evidence that was also being held in the sally port objection sustained did you see any other evidence in the sally port related to this case no did you see a bag grocery bag with six Solo cups there objection did you see anything that seemed out of the ordinary there all I would do is use that as a cut through did not see anything are you aware that at 5 well let me ask you this you and chief burtz were moving in and through at least in some parts of the day in and through Camp PD together correct at some points we might have been together I'm not I mean we we weren't together all day matter of fact he was also in the sally port around the same time you were correct I don't recall that no but the records would reflect that right the records that are in front of you jaction you in the sally port the last time you're logged into the sallyport it's 407 do you remember seeing Chief burkowitz at sallyport at 414 no and and if that says that I'm logged that that could be me cutting through all I'm asking you through I'm not asking you what you did I'm asking you where you were I don't know where I was at that specific time well you walked into the sally port we know that if I walked in I correct cutting through yes right was Chief burwitz in the S port at 4:14 not that I recall no was he there at 4:30 I I don't remember ever seeing him in the sally port no was he there at 433 I don't remember ever seeing Chief ertz in the S poort at 450 jaction sustain let's move through this please finally was he there at 536 and 37 seconds at the same time here in 's vehicle was delivered I don't remember do you remember Chief burkowitz or were you with Chief burkowitz uh when he made a call to the front desk no I don't remember anything like that no you remember Chief Burt's calling the front desk at 542 and saying shut the door objection sustained you remember any kind of call shutting the barracks meaning shutting the Sally FL objection do you remember that I don't remember anything like that you're onor okay next question you didn't leave Kenton PD until close to 6: p.m. isn't that right I don't know what time I left could it have been 5:50 6 o' I don't recall what time I left you're aware that there's video surveillance feeds at in the sallyport garage correct that's correct yes around the building were you in the sallyport at 536 when the car was delivered I don't have any re recollection of that no it's one thing to say I don't remember it's another thing to say no I was not there I don't remember being there no is it possible that you could have been there when that car was delivered I don't believe I was no you don't believe you were believe I was no you're aware that the video surveillance feed from the sallyport garage at around 536 the precise time when the car was delivered missing right jaction sustain did you receive a flurry of phone calls from Brian Albert and chief burwitz um indicating that some taillight pieces or a tailight piece had been recovered at 34 Fairview later that evening jaction did you receive a call at all without telling me what the conversation consisted of around 6:12 p.m. from Brian Albert I don't I don't know what day you're referring to the 29th no I don't remember any phone calls like that do you remember 3 minutes later getting another call from she burwitz 6:16 p.m. that lasted about 5 minutes and 15 seconds no I approach yes you look at the entries for 612 616 see if that refreshes your recollection are you referring to the 612 and 616 okay I see those yes there was a call at 612 that Brian Albert made to you for a duration of 1 minute and 7 Seconds correct yes and right after that there was a call from Chief burwitz to you at 16 at 616 it lasted 5 minutes and 15 seconds correct yes I approach yes they telling you that tail light pieces had been found at the location objection sustained G to may we approach briefly okay e [Music] so um May I inquire yes your testimony is that you don't recall the substance of those conversations at 612 and 616 I don't no isn't it true that you were asked about those phone calls at at another hearing I might have been I don't recall and did you testify at the other hearing that in fact what was discussed was the substance of the tail light being found at the location no that's not what that was in reference to were you being provided information from your friend Chief burkowitz about the progress of the investigation no were you providing your friend Brian Albert's Brian Albert information about the progress of the investigation or what you perceived it to be no I didn't have any information on the investigation I have just a moment your sure you were not interviewed about this case but in any formal capacity until 5 days later correct that sounds about right February 1st Trooper Proctor I'm not exactly sure the date but it was it was several days after yes I'm sorry I said February 1st maybe February 3rd I I don't know the date but it was we were into February um where did that interview take place Sharon Mass I'm sorry Sharon Mass at what location sorry what location AC I'll see Council very quickly at sign back e e e okay the um the interview was not at the police station it was not no um by the time you interviewed with Trooper Proctor you had already had numerous conversations with Brian Albert is that safe to say well the interview was with both tro Trooper Proctor TR Trooper bu s buenik and um of course I've talked to Brian elit because of what took place that was a yes or no question yeah of course I've talked to him yeah okay the answer is yes right do we agree the answer is yes thank you by the time you spoke with trer Proctor and Trooper bunik you had already had numerous conversations with Chief Burk correct yes you had already had uh numerous conversations with Kevin Albert yes you had already had this meeting with the Alberts and the maves over at 34 Fairview is that right I went to the house and discussed this case as you earlier described in your testimony I discussed what what we we try to figure out what happened you discussed this case Mr hi well at that point it wasn't a case okay I'm not parsing words about what a case is versus a matter versus an issue you understood my question didn't you yes is there a reason you don't want to answer that question I don't have a problem objection your is there a reason or why don't you goad well I I Philly trying to make it sound like something it wasn't it I'm not trying to make it sound like anything sir I'm asking a question had you discussed this case or the issues surrounding this case with those folks I did discuss things when I went back to the house yes and that was before you met with trooper proor and Trooper Buck cor that's correct you had already spent an enormous amount of time at Canton PD we've just gone through those records is that right I have been at Canton PD yes and you had been able to talk to you had access at least to all the officers correct what do you mean by can you anybody that was coming and going at Canton PD access for what purpose just to walk by them to hear what they were saying see what they were doing yeah not what I was doing no I didn't I'm not accusing you of doing anything I'm saying you had access to the individuals within the Canton PD correct to interact if if needed yes and very obviously you had access to the sally port I had access yes and that's a cut through I used all the time and anything that was in it correct um I wouldn't need anything in it it was only after all that that Michael Proctor thought that you were worthy of a conversation I'll rephrase it I'll rephrase it it was only after all of that that you were interviewed by Michael Proctor and trip bu correct I wasn't interviewed till the following days that's correct at some point on February 4th chief burwitz called you to formally I'm sorry to personally inform you that he had personally found tail light at 34 Fairview is that right he did he did tell me that yes and to be clear that's the same Ken burkowitz that you were with in the Sally report I don't recall being in the sally port with him no right what did you do with that information when you learned from Chief burwitz that there was that he personally saw a tailight piece as he drove by I didn't do anything with the information did you call Brian Albert no Brian Albert called me you were asked this specific question in the other proceeding in June of 2023 correct I don't know if it was a specific question I was asked a series of questions on how the phone calls came in that's what I was asked and your answer was it's a 100% probable that I told him about that meaning I told Brian Albert about my conversation with Ken Burk correct it's it's possible was that your statement or not it was my statement then but I've thought about it yes and you've changed your statement somehow I don't know if I changed my statement but I think the way the phone calls came in is Brian Albert told me you're not going to believe what was found on the front lawn and then I believe Ken burkwitz told me he found the tail light and I'm referring to the tail light from the both of them I didn't provide any information to anybody information was provided to me what you actually said was it's 100% probable that I told him about that yes 100% I'm not hiding that fact but you're asking me if I recollect specifically I know I called him after all right so too many facts go slow sure you said yes I'm yes 100% correct in that testimony I did yes and then in that testimony you went on to say I'm not hiding that fact but you're asking me if I recollect specifically correct I don't have an in front of me that's what you're telling me you went on to say I know I called him after that phone call correct I don't know and you went on to say if that's when Chief burkowitz told me if I listen I didn't do anything wrong in this end quote that was your statement prior hearing correct so I want to strike the may I yes you said you don't recall that entire testimony right not that p i not that porush but I know I was asked about how the phone calls came in and what was said do you think it would refres elction to see transcript of your answer is this it right here it's it I'm going to read it for [Applause] may I yes thank you does that refresh your recollection to what your testimony was under oath in June of 2023 I do and you said if that's what Chief burwitz told me if I listen I didn't do anything wrong in this correct that was a statement I made yes why did you say listen I didn't do anything wrong in this jaction why' you say that I felt they were being accusatory and I was trying to explain what was going on and what I had said over that was I can't I I believe what I said something the effect I can't be 100% positive and then when I I went on to say it's it's it's it's probable but I felt like I they were being accusatory and I was trying to explain how the phone calls came in I've had time to reflect about it after that since that testimony and both that information about the tail light that was found was provided by each person I didn't provide any information to anybody next question thank you you said look I didn't do anything wrong in this because it looks like you and Ken burkowitz were colluding to provide information to Brian Albert correct is that correct absolutely not correct that's wrong you knew that was going to look like collusion which is why you said look I didn't do anything wrong in this objection objection [Applause] sustained Mr Higgins if you wanted to get rid of and you've dealt with cell phones and and electronic devices in your career many many times correct over my career yes uh you probably written search warrants for them things of that nature right yes um if you wanted to destroy evidence on your cell phone what kind of steps might you take to do that objection if you wanted to just get rid of information on your cell phone that would be unrecoverable what steps might be taken jaction do you know how to get rid of information on your cell phone jaction that's a lie you can answer that do I know how to get rid of information I mean I think there's different ways you could possibly you could wipe your phone anything else um you could wipe your phone good factory factory reset factory reset might be one wiping your phone taking the SIM card out I I don't know that the SIM card's going to take information that's on the phone out so that might be one Avenue you could break the SIM card in half it it could yes um you know the SIM card stores an enormous amount of data that phone's need to Brick right no I don't know that okay you could also if you take the SIM card out you just get rid of the phone somehow right just destroy it yes um might even consult with some kind of an expert to help learn how to permanently erase things from a phone like a friends expert for instance jackon his te on Saturday January 29th um you spent much of the day at much of the morning rather at Brian Albert's house and then the rest of the day variously at K PD You' agree with that correct no you said I spent much of the morning at Brian Albert's house correct in other words you went over there at whatever it was 7:50 8:00 something like that and then until about 9:00 no I got over there around 7 o' and I was there less than an hour I wasn't there most of the day I never went back there so you spent time at Brian Albert's house then much of the rest of the day at Canton PD correct yes and then the very next day that Sunday you called a friend of yours guy named Matt Kelch didn't you I yeah he's my best friend yes and he's a special agent with the FBI isn't he no he's not was he then he's never been a special agent with FBI he's a special agent with ATF my mistake my mistake I thought he was with the FBI he's a federal special agent he's a coworker of mine yes which makes him a federal special agent right an ATF agent yes and does he work for or have access to the regional computer forensics lab yes he works over there okay that's the FBI Regional forensics Regional computer forensics lab correct yes that's how I got my mistake I apologize well I just want to make sure the records reflected correctly you and me both so you you reflected it correctly so Matt Kelch is an ATF agent who works at the FBI computer sorry Regional computer forensics lab correct yes and he's an expert in digital forensics is he not he has a level of expertise more than myself yes and he's one of your best friends he is my best friend you spoke to to him about the death of joh o'keef did you not yes and you asked him for a personal favor sort of off the books correct Jacks in that form of sustaining did you ask him for a personal favor no did you ask him to show you or consult with you how to pull things off of your phone that you decide to get off your phone I asked him how I could pull text strings off my cellular telephone for the purpose of providing them to law forcement this was not in connection with any case that he was working correct that's correct it was not in connection with any case you were working correct objection objection sustained but you already answered I'll strike that answer second question you can answer is this in connection to any case you no your honor next question but you asked your friend to utilize his resources to teach you how to extract certain information off your phone is that what you did I asked him if it was possible to get this off if there was if there was a method to get this off my phone so I could provide it to law enforcement and that information was selected by you correct two particular text threads yes right uh in other words there was nobody else that was picking and choosing what to get off your phone that was just you it was me yes um and the reason you did that Mr Higgins is that you wanted to control and limit the amount of information that was pulled off your phone right Jackson is that why you did it no I did it because I wanted to provide it to law enforcement you okay next question but you could have just provided your phone to law enforcement and let them image the entire thing correct I guess that was an option yes and you knew that was an option at the time and you're trained F uh ATF agent what's the question you knew it was an option to just hand your phone over pick it up and give it to them and there was also an option to provide it to them as well right but you chose the one that you got to select the information not the one where they would get everything correct jaction stand just to that form did you actually go to the FBI computer forensics lab yes I let me correct that I didn't go to the lab itself I went to a key what they refer to as a kios on the first floor over at FBI okay and and all local PDS law enforcement have access to that and those are that's obviously it's an unrestricted area you can you can you can be in there as I understand unaccompanied if you're local law enforcement it's on the first floor that is a federal facility however yes it is did you utilize any computer or data sorry any data extraction Machinery if you will a computer or something to extract this data well it was a machine I don't know what it's called okay fair enough I'll use the word machine I don't know what it's called either uh so you hook that phone up to a machine correct yes and that machine belonged to the FBI it didn't belong to you is that right that's correct so that was a federal resource not for anything having to do with any official case that you were working isn't that right jaction so I need to see you I know this is I need to see you e e while we're doing that Council come on back yes e e e um I ask Advocate to thank you I was trying to figure out how we do I don't know is that in reference to the key swipes yeah I I don't know we may as well use this time with me asking counil question at e e counil why don't you come on over please Mr Conley uh if if you just go and just stand next to your client the Mr Jackson's going to make an offer of proof of a question he's about to ask your client or a couple of questions he's about to ask your client doesn't make any sense to me that somebody has counsel in the council is not aware of a potential issue so you'll hear the offer approv I'll let you speak to Mr Higgins before this actually happens before the jury could I just have yes I was just going to ask you to identify yourself sure my name is William con spelled c o NN o l l y all right May yes the witness has indicated that he utilized Federal resources for personal gain the specifics of that testimony have been as follows he indicated that he contacted Matt Kelch a federal agent indicated that he utilized a federal facility it was he called it an unsecure facility but it's Federal Federal facility not with standing and that the two of them he and agent Kelch utilized a federal re utilized Federal resources in the form of some kind of a machine as the the witness indicated for his own personal gain so that he could as a witness in no official capacity working any official case and in in Matt Kel's Capac as a as an individual rather than an agent they both work together to download certain information from the witness's phone in anticipation of turning that highly selected highly curated information over law enforcement so that he could later ultimately destroy his phone which this witness in fact did okay so it's not entire I disagree with you I I don't think it's reached that level um his test testimony was that he went to a kiosk on the first floor where all local police departments uh can go it's unrestricted it's on the first floor and we just got to the part about a machine in the kiosk when you mentioned an FBI resource so what is your question what what questions do you intend to ask this witness now whether he is aware that under five CFR 2635.702 it is a federal offense to use his public off to use any public office for his own private gain or for the gain of persons or organizations with which you are associated personally in other words an FBI agent or an ATF agent cannot use federal resources for personal gain the fact that he contacted an ATF agent the fact that he utilized a u a facility that is owned by the federal government run by the federal government paid for by taxpayer dollars and and the fact that he used a machine that is owned by the federal government to download certain information for his own personal gain that personal gain being these are the curated texts that I'm going to turn over to law enforcement that's a federal Tex all right so those questions are going to be asked I don't know there's been an objection to them I'm not sure I'm going to let them in um but I wanted to give you the opportunity to speak privately with your client in the bathroom there can you do it in short order do I can I can do it in about 10 seconds okay sure all right if you feel so so why don't we go why don't you go back and talk to him I'll stop bringing the jury or getting the jury lined up to come back [Music] do you need anything no I'm just going to grab a sell roll time [Music] [Music] thank [Music] your all right so we're ready to proceed I am your honor thank you so let's bring the jurors in please I love all your optimism but it's going to take him about two minutes to get here so yeah do do you want these [Music] he rise from jur be SE for all right we have a very few minutes left Mr Jackson uh Mr Higgins you indicated that the phone was hooked up to some sort of machine at the FBI head at the FBI kiosk correct yes um you're aware sir that under 5 CFR 2635.702 you may not use your public office for your own personal or private gain or for the gain of persons or organizations with which you are associated personally under pain of a federal offense correct objection that no your H okay are you aware that under 5cfr 2634 704 it's a felony to quote Jack your honor as reading go ahead and finish the question for an employee I'm sorry an employee has a duty to preserve and conserve government property and shall not use such property or allow its use for other than authorized purposes were you aware of that Federal Regulation that objection sustained sir not withstanding those regulations you utilize the services of Matt Kelch as a friend and a colleague but utilizing Federal resources to pull information off your phone correct jaction sustained as to that form in fact uh you were successful in getting information off your phone which is the text that you turn over to the Commonwealth correct Jackson in that form you're almost there Mr Jackson that form was improper the information that was ultimately pulled off your phone was the information that you selected and you and Matt Matt Kelch work together to get off your phone correct jaction is that correct no you're on if I could explain sure I he he walked me through on how I could pull the text string with John O'Keefe in the defendant he walked me through the process how to use the machine and then you did that I did do that that's correct that's what you turned over to the police that's correct and any other information would still be on your phone ending in 5421 correct well that information stayed on my phone I just took those strings off and provided them to the Mass state police so where's your phone I do not have that phone anymore youve destroyed that phone haven't you no I threw the phone away well that's destroying the phone isn't it I had every right to do that I didn't ask you about your rights when I threw it away if I was going to take it out I would break it or cut it but I did not wipe the phone I did not take anything else off it but if I was going to throw the phone away that's what I would have done okay you know as an ATF agent with electronic data experience when you pull the SIM card out and break it and then throw the throw the phone away and the SIM card away you don't need to wipe the phone jaction sustained ja that's it roner one more question I can do this in 30 seconds um I think you were aware that the that there was a court order that you not alter delete or destroy or in any way manipulate your phone or the electronic data associated with it correct jaction as to what date as of September 23rd I'm sorry September 30th 2022 objection I don't believe that's what the court order was I think make a quick offer approve that's exactly what it was that he were you aware of that that was that your understanding what's the question exactly I'm sorry that's the question sure were you served with a a copy of of a notice on September 30th 2022 that you not alter or destroy or manipulate anything on your phone on September 30th I was served in order yes that's correct and isn't it true in another hearing you explain that on September 29th the day before you claim you got that notice you changed phone carriers and changed phone numbers and I maintained the phone until you didn't when you destroyed it a month later by pulling the SIM card out and throwing it away correct jaction sist did you do that in October did you destroy that phone objection sustained did you pull the SIM card out of your phone Mr Higgins did you I it's possible that I did I believe that's how I've testified yes you testified it's possible that if I if I if I took it out that it was either cut or broken it's not just possible that and that would have been after the date the order was already denied Mr Higgins I have one question left one question did you Mr Mr L's already standing I haven't even started have a seat Mr L go ahead last question Mr Jackson quiet please quiet Mr Higgins very simply and then we're done did you remove the SIM card for that phone drive onto a military base throw the SIM card in one dumpster and the phone in a different dumpster that is not correct did you testify was your one question Mr Jackson all right folks that's it for to today we will see you Tuesday um have a great long weekend please it's very important do not discuss this case with anyone don't do any independent research or investigation into this case if you happen to see hear or read anything about this case please disregard it let us know we will see you on Tuesday Tuesday will be a full day goodbye you can follow them yes all right so I will see coun at sidebar tor e e e e e e e e Madam court reporter thank you very much all right thank you everybody all rise please e e e for