where have you been I've been in my home and what have you learned been here what have I learned I have learned there are few things I learned one of them being I use lab is not the thing the label is not the thing yeah okay what do you mean the label or word is not the thing basically the word is not the thing okay yes example yes uh example would be one of the tweets that you posted by David D okay good which what tweet is that sorry which tweet is that can you read it please I think the Tweet about read it slowly and I'll okay read it [Music] slowly read it read it slowly line by line and I'll repeat it to make sure that it people can hear it and the you know Etc and the captions and all that okay here we go okay the laws of physics are simply a description that when misused lead to poor thinking the laws of physics are merely a description which use when used poorly lead to poor thinking true okay the laws of physics they're not it's not like a you know some God is saying this is the law these are just descriptions they're not people imagine them as as some kind of divine or ordained thing but they're just descriptions and that's very important to understand deeply or or your science goes wonky and your thinking goes wonky all right next line next line is uh in biology also multi-level abstractions are also the best way for understanding multiple Minds nested within a single organism example multiple Russian dolls well that's kind of a non seiter even though I wrote it okay in biology also what in biology also multi-level abstractions are also the best fit multi-level abstractions are also the best fit for hierarchies of of mind right yeah how did I say it just out of curiosity yeah yeah I think you were quite close it was like are also the best way for understanding multiple Minds nested Within a single organism yeah like Russian dolls yeah yeah so so so basically we we know that we have a mind in the brain actually we've got several of them and we know that if we cut the the Corpus colossum if we if we take the brain let's see here you can see it and this cross section here okay this is the the brain right I just took this part of the C I just took this cortex off between the two cortices there's this thing called the Corpus colossum this is the this is like a big band of effectively wires going from one hemisphere to the other connecting the two halves of the brain if you cut that thing you get all kinds of strange things including multiple binds also we have although it's a little bit frankly I'm a little bit I'm a clinician so I've worked with this stuff and and multiple personality disorder um exist I've never seen a true case where they couldn't be reintegrated which says to me that it's one overarching personality but we can hypothesize it I just don't want to make it the basis for any kind of uh the foundation for any kind of scientific or philosophical uh edifices because it's a little bit shaky but anyway we do know that there are multiple Minds within the brain uh using mines Loosely and there's also mines within tissues of course because tissues have to solve problems novel problems your kidney gets some kind of weird electrolyte in there and he goes what do I what do I do with this chromium I I'm not genetically engineered to deal with chromium or something like that and so it has to solve the problem like the liver too so so thank you for letting me like you know Point these things out to people that science is advancing thank God and uh this is the way it's going to it's going to go in this Century all right keep going yeah thank you my question what does it have to do with David de what does that have to do with David Deutch I think uh David deut on the former he has a quote regarding that it's pretty long it's one paragraph the last three sentences of it uh last three sentences are like the last sentence is there's no reason to expect that just because there's a lowlevel description there isn't also a high level explanation and description I think good no that's l a lot of that's good because we've been we've been worshiping at the altar of reductionism materialist reductionism for the last I don't know 250 years and we've hit a brick wall right I mean literally a brick wall with quantum mechanics especially and so uh it's time to move on and go back to what you know I mean if you look over the centuries that that was considered kind of lame but we did we were able to do a lot of engineering even if our science kind of hit a wall and so the next step will be getting past that and I think probably quantum mechanics will help with that but the the point now David people may not know who David deuts is David deuts is the guy who's considered the father of the quantum computer very very smart guy and a book I can recommend to everybody whether you're I don't it doesn't matter whether you're atheist or you hate you're material reductionist or whatever you might be read uh the beginning of infinity by David Deutsch it's a very good read okay have you read it uh no I read a little bit of it but all right it's it's you can read it it's divided up into chapters you can just read a chapter at a time when you get when you feel like it it's not like those books where you have to read the whole thing at once all right sir yeah so yeah so my question is I feel like all this are just knowledge in the sense the way Zen this talk about it and I get it like that is important like these things are important especially for communication purposes but the problem with like the thing that Dharma talks about is these are still labels and the reality need not follow whatever labels we put it up like whatever Theory we may come up that can be certain exceptions and which always happens because reality is way more complex than what we can assign labels and theories to either much more complex or much simpler right so good good good now what would chrisan mty say about what you just said honestly he would kind of say word is not the thing exactly he would say exactly the same thing and so with the Zen masters of old would say and the Dost the Dows definitely uh what is it in one there's one version of the Dow where it says the Dow that can be spoken is not the Eternal doubt names can be given but not permanent labels names can be given but not permanent labels so that's a like a first and very important step in in just understanding reality and it doesn't seem that important because uh because you just kind of go oh yeah okay I got it the word's not the thing you know I know I mean I have the word tree for that but I don't you know it's not tree I could call it a tree I could call it a big bush I could call it you know Abracadabra you know I can call anything I want but that's not the point the point is is that that once you remove that now you've got you're looking at reality more directly and when you do that then things start to get very mysterious very mysterious so this is seeing as opposed to looking yeah like sometimes sometimes people have like fights about definitions and all and with this perspective in mind it feels pretty trivial do you know people have you heard of lud viid wienstein heard of it but I haven't why don't you look it up and give us give us the first two sentences on from Wikipedia on lud Ludwig wienstein w t t en this is important that you know I mean if you're going to be a well-rounded man which looks like you're going to be I think from the Stanford encyclopedia philosophy it's like considered by some of to some to be the greatest philosopher of the 20th century considered by son to be the greatest philosopher of the 20th century go ahead yeah l played a central role if controversial role in mid 20th century analytic philosophy okay so so that's plenty the staford uh Encyclopedia of philosophy says it he may be the most important philosopher excuse me of the 20th century but what did he say well he said two things in he tractatus you've read the TR or you haven't read the tractatus at some point you're going to want to read the tatus of of wienstein it's only like maybe 20 pages and it's well written it's fun it's good and you you should read it and then and it but his message was this is that most of Western philosophy is just word games that when you really boil it down it comes to people not using the words the same way and what I want to propose is that Consciousness studies are the same thing everybody's got a different opinion forgive me it's because they're using words in different ways all right now I'll let you talk go ahead lud that's called word games formally formally all right go ahead uh so is it about Ludwick or my I just want to make sure that you're aware of him you know yeah yeah I'm an old man I have these paternal feelings I guess towards the younger generation and I just want them you know there's certain things that are that are important to to be aware of just so you could know what happened just immediately before your generation and vien Stein is will if he's not already the rage will be the rage because what he's saying is very true that most of philosophy if not all of it comes down to word games because that circles so that shows you so not not only has a physical science hit a a hard wall now I'm not talking about engineering or computation by the way I'm talking about the physics and things like that those who hit a wall philosophy has hit hit a wall also that's that's the point I guess and you should know the very very bright people and Ludwig had a lot of insight a lot of insight which can so uh just so when his name comes up you'll know something about who he is and then you later you can read the tractatus or you know uh read the work that was published after he died he only published like 20 Pages formally in his lifetime good guy he like fought in World War I that changed him forever and uh he spent most of his life trying to uh help other people interesting guy all right keep going yeah so my problem with it was it's like I've been using that same thing as a reasoning for almost everything especially like for example last week we were discussing about a quan right a what where a mon a what sorry last we oh Coan yeah Zen Coan k o a Zen yes sir yeah yeah so I think the Goan one of the Coan was about a disciplinarian monk who had like who thought that he stepped on a frog oh yes at night and when he woke up there was a squashed eggn there instead do you have that do you know where that is is that instant Zen or dream conversations or no it's in instan page 256 I'm going to read it to folks because it's really cool 25 you say yeah it's called saving energy generally speaking practical application of Zen requires Detachment from thoughts this method of Zen saves the most energy it just requires you to detach from emotional thoughts and understand that there is nothing Concrete in the Realms of Desire form and formlessness only then can you apply Zen practically if you try to practice it otherwise it will seem bitterly painful by comparison all right here we go here's the okay this a story very much like a Sufi story too once there was a disciplinarian monk who kept the precepts all As life so this guy was very very you know righteous a good man once there was a disciplinarian monk who had kept the precepts all his life as he as he was walking one night he stepped on something that squished which he imagined to be a frog a mother frog Laden with eggs oh no mortified at the thought of having killed a pregnant frog when the monk went to sleep that night he dreamed that hundreds of frogs came to him demanding his life he was utterly terrified cuz he killed his mother frog with all their babies pregnant mother frog Come Morning the monk went to look for the Frog he had squashed and found that it had only been an overwrite eggplant at that moment the Monk's perplex perplexities abruptly ceased realizing that there is nothing Concrete in the world for the for first time he was really able to apply it practically in life now I ask you when he stepped on it by night it was a was it a frog or an eggplant if it was a frog yet when he looked at dawn it was an eggplant if it was an eggplant yet there were frogs demanding his life the night before can you decide so okay uh and then there's a a little verse feelings of frogs may be shed but the idea of eggplant remains if you would be free of the idea of eggplant strike the evening chime at noon okay that's actually not a [ __ ] but that's uh that's more like a okay and let me put a plugin for this book this book has a very good narration on AUD audio audio books what's it called audible so for you people from the modern times right there there's a audible version that's quite workable which is rare in Zen especially if you have an enlightened translator of an enlightened text by a very uh accomplished uh zen master Foon correct I've been reading a lot of these a lot of the in text that and so this is UN Audible for anybody that you know wants to listen while they're driving or going to sleep or taking a walk or whatever although I'd recommend you really focus on it and and I also always recommend almost that you have the the text with you okay so but that's not technically a [ __ ] it's it's a it's a teaching story it's a yeah so from what I understand it's still the same thing that we were discussing earlier the label is the problem here I feel like if you would I take get back where he asks you to decide whether it was whether he was right to be afraid at night then it becomes a [ __ ] so so I take that I forgive me they aren't usually that generous right the uh in Coons they require you to work more but go ahead what are you going to say I was going to say the verse basically says like it acknowledges that the frogs mean were not real but the idea of eggplant remains and it if you would be free of the idea of eggplant strike the evening time at noon I feel like it's again pointing to the fact that frogs eggplants are still labels to the things or am I interpreting it in a wrong way the teachings you're you're you're missing the [ __ ] part the [ __ ] part is where he asked you to decide he asks you to decide which is it for communication purposes I would say I Leed but I would say go ahead I would say it's still just naming things it's still so the question is how do you decide how do I decide my question is do I need to decide yes that's the whole [ __ ] yeah that's the whole point do it's emotional suffering real or is the eggplant real so that's why that's why I hesitated to call this a [ __ ] because it's it's really not set up that way but it's it's if you if you want the [ __ ] part it's where the master asks the student okay which which is it if you call this a stick you affirm it if you call it not a stick you negate it which is it nothing it's just a thing Bam Bam this is you're saying this so you deated the stick I didn't negate it you said it was nothing if this hit you on the head it would not be nothing what would it be then it would be there would be sensory feelings that I will feel if you call this a stick you affirm it if you call it not a stick you negate it which is [Music] it if I call it a stick I affirm it if I don't call it a sck i negate it what do you mean by affirm it what if if I call it a stick you affir what do you mean by affir you say it's a stick you say there's a stick there yeah it before Communications what I'm trying to do is move you to the next level okay we know that You' you've discovered and you've learned and that's fantastic by the way good oops sorry sorry it's fantastic that you've learned that things are not the labels that's good so now what we want is you to move to the next level up so if you call this a stick you a confirm it if you call it not a stick you negate it so let's say you take all the labels in the world away my eyebrows are going to fall out and roll all over the floor but go ahead let's say you take all the labels in the world away okay what's left we can't discuss that because that doesn't exist any label so there are no pointers as such okay good good so there's nothing we can talk about so then let's talk about this stick okay so that's a CO on that's something you need to let percolate in your mind now in the old days they'd ask you on the spot in front of everybody and you'd have to answer on the spot and there but they're testing your understanding right or they're testing the teacher both both ways are delightful because there's a lot of fake teachers out there lots of them and Zen it makes it very easy because it's all so mysterious and all that but it's really not it's very very technical I mean not very it's very very precise it's like diamond cutting through it's not all this Mumbo weird I I went to Zen centers in California when I was coming up and there was a lot of confusion and a lot of folks imagining that they understood when they didn't understand at all okay so what else have you discovered for this thing about the label is not the thing what about you you is a label is it not no I I I was thinking about it and one thing what was it what was it that you were thinking about a thought or a thought popped up a series of thoughts popped up about what that I was yeah about who I am okay keep going so the thought experiment was I had some life I have a history in my life what my history was defin and I would have been somewhere else I would have different occupation different things yet the feeling of me would be the same that I am feeling right now so in a way I'm saying my occupation my name and all those are just totally superfici and out totally superficial yeah right okay okay so what's left just awareness like me seeing things me being able to talk to you me being able to hear anything it's like there is some Center or maybe this whole body itself is there who sensing all these things but without me being here like how should I explain I don't think I can see things if I was not there if I if there was no in me but like how I don't know how can I talk about it it's it's like without this I wouldn't be seeing anything but without your eyes ears nose mouth sensory organs you wouldn't be feeling anything either yeah but that happens kind of happens when I sleep and I still have a distinct sense of meanness when I am in my dream are you sure it happens in your sleep depends if if I'm in my deep sleep if I don't have any memory of it then I there's no way to prove that I actually experienced by myself right now after having the sleep because there is no memory for that that's like asking like who was I before I was born if I have no memory of it there's no way to discern anything uh false but let me tell you a story when I was a young man really young maybe I don't know8 I fell asleep one day and and I went into this deep dreamless sleep and the next thing I remember was I started dreaming and I dreamt I was walking through these tall grasses and I knew they were tall because they were they were rubbing against my leg and then the next thing I know I woke up from that dream and there was a fan blowing and a corner of the sheet was rubbing against my leg exactly where the tall grasses were okay so from that you can infer certain things about sensory organs and whether they're asleep or not even in deep sleep so I just tell you that story so you can contemplate it and ask yourself if something like that has happened to you it's quite common right but was that even deep sleep when you were able to dream things and remember it no I'm saying I was in deep sleep and I when I started dreaming I dreamt of tall grass the fan didn't turn on when I when I started dreaming did it but you know about the dreaming but you still don't know whether you were in deep Sleep for sure right I'm inferring that okay that's true but you know an 8-year-old boy when he lies in a bed and he falls asleep he thinks he's in a bed falling asleep so you can forgive him for that right yeah that's that's all right okay good good good now so you're saying there's no way to know so so what's this thing so before you were born when was that before my first but before I was born like I don't know maybe before I was conceived all right let's go with that so let's say 100 years I mean let's say 50 years yeah and if we go back like a hundred years or a thousand years does that make any difference no what if we go back 100,000 million years does it make any difference no actually think if you have your fullone n i I tweeted something about Einstein a quote from Einstein would you read that I think slowly so people can understand it my system is not great yeah yeah I think it's People Like Us who believe in physics know that okay this is Albert Einstein and you got to start stop stop stop [Music] stop okay you got to start the quote with Albert Einstein said and then put the quotes on it because I was confused when he was starting so say quote Albert Einstein said quote go yeah said People Like Us who believe in physics know that the distinction between past present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion time in other words he said is an illusion end quote Yeah end quote okay so Einstein is saying time is illusion right the same thing parmen said the same thing I believe Pythagoras said and the same thing the the Buddhist and Hindu and and Sufi Masters have been saying all along right so do you I mean I don't want to argue by Authority I'm not but so I'm going to ask you what your relationship with time is do you believe that time is a fundamental in this universe depends on what do you want to discuss because I totally agree and believe that that is only present right now any past and any future is just I don't want I don't care what you believe I want to know what you know belief is not what we're looking for here I would say I know for sure that the only present exists okay good the past and the future doesn't exist it's just thought and okay so those those are just thought okay so but does time exist in the present that's a good question and I had I was thinking a bit about it good good good good great go ahead and the thought experiment was if I did not have any memory like no memory at all mhm how would I see the world I that's a good question go ahead what I would see things changing yet I would not know that things are changing okay I think this was a few weeks back we were discussing about n STS I believe n Nu see space St an S do you want to Define that for people yeah yeah and I think there the prime question was why do we see oh sorry yeah go ahead in in the next stance the prime question was why do we see an arrow is moving and my reasoning that I definition of nuke stands for exact definition yeah we're trying to help people here it's part of the function I think it is a Latin part now staying now basically staying in the now forever now the Eternal now the Eternal present it's what yes it's what Edgar toly keeps talking about right and yes Einstein is now acknowledging that hey time is uh not fundamental it's an abstraction created by the human mind okay so go ahead yeah so my reasoning was the only reason we are able to sense some continuity is because of memory okay we see an arrow moving in Direction because there is a pretty fresh memory especially for we can't remember the future yeah because memory only goes backwards so to speak if we could remember the future then then we'd be really okay so good so what was your conclusions excellent my conclusion was what it would be if you have no memory like literally no memory not even a memory of a second how would you see things I thought that's what Awakening would be but I don't know I still feel like that's not what Awakening is Awakening is more about having no emotional relationship with the memory like memory is by itself not bad thing it's like having emotional relationship to memory or to future is the problem that creates suffering that's what what my thinking is not bad at all I'm getting s oops I keep hitting the wrong thing no not bad at all not bad at all so this is this is the the deal this is the deal you keep working at this you think about it just the normal kind of wonder that a normal person has you know a normal an intelligent person who's like Curious I mean what are you doing here what are you okay so good that sounds like progress now I could say a lot more but my eyebrows would fall out so let's keep going but what can you say about this I can say that you're on the right track that you need to keep working at it in this way how often do you hear me say that you're doing it correctly you've got to gnaw on this you've got to understand you got to like solve this for yourself you can't talk from the bleachers which is a phrase that means speaking from Authority okay don't talk from the bleachers don't think from the bleachers go to First principles and Discover it for yourself and you can do that so this is part of the the deal good any questions so regarding the second yeah second part that I was discussing and also the flower ornament EXC me one second the flower ornament will help a young man like you a lot an enormous amount okay and there are times that it's tedious and times when it's not but if you just go through it 20 minutes a day 4 months and you're done and your mind will be enriched and opened and much more capable than it is now it's a it's a real bargain okay go ahead now go yeah I had some trivial questions regarding that as well but no no no let's get to them let's get to them I no I I had one followup to that like earlier when I was saying memory is not the problem but the relationship with it the discriminating relationship with it is the problem my question again is so you're saying if he didn't care if he didn't care whether it was a frog or an eggplant same to him if he didn't care that he'd killed the mother frog with its babies then he'd be he'd be golden is that what you're saying uh yes I would say I would say yes yes okay I would say yes so enlightened Masters don't care whether they squash a frog with baby eggs in it it's harsh I would definitely say that okay but it's a category it's a category error very good yeah good all right good good good so now you see how he's lay how Foon in instance Zen how he's laying a foundation for you to like understand the difference between the frog and the eggplant right because if we take away the labels what are the two things what do they represent if you look away the labels what does it mean for the Frog take away the label okay no take away the symbols one is a frog one is an eggplant yeah okay well I'm I'm going to cut to the chase just and I God forgive me for doing this with a beautiful colon but the Frog represents emotion emotional see when you do this with coons you destroy them and so have to beg for forgiveness for this but with the Frog there was an emotional o because he was attached to the emotion or is it the thought had an emotion attached to it and he follows it right with the eggplant who cares it's just the thought now is reality feelings or thoughts to simplify horribly that's kind of the question he's asking you is reality feeling or thought that's the question he's asking he's saying he's saying what page was it 26 something yeah 25 26 now I ask you when he stepped on it by night was it a frog or an eggplant if it was a frog yet when he looked at dawn it was an eggplant if it was an eggplant yet there were frogs demanding his life the night before can you decide so that's what you need to do is decide is this reality so you take away the labels there's still feelings and thoughts is is that correct or not yeah okay I'm not saying it's correct or not I'm just laying out of I'm just laying out something for you which one of those is real both both are [Music] real the T end that's not an answer to my question can you repeat again no sorry for that we'll do that later okay let's keep going let's keep going I already my next thing you know my eyballs are going to be a rolling all over the table let's go okay got but it's so good to see that you're you're not you know cheering from the [Music] bleachers you're actually down on the field excellent keep going yeah like my simple question during that time was who is discriminating the thoughts then I basically I think it's just a rain of thoughts again that gets started after feeling some sensation or just some other thought now so who is this happening to is what you're asking yourself do you have thoughts or do thoughts happen to you thoughts happen to me now are you are you speaking from the bleachers no so you know this you're not in your head okay good so when you say me thoughts happen to me who are you referring to or what are you referring to awareness oh so your awareness now the one who is aware of thoughts the sensations so that's what you are yeah how does that feel depends on the time of the day it ques with time so awareness changes with the time of day awareness doesn't change but what it feels changes with time interesting what if you plunged into an ice bath it will feel cold or feel cold awareness will feel cold it will sense the coldness I would say but cold is again discriminating things okay it will just there will be just a feeling of cold like I have to use the word cold because we are communicating that's no other way to talk about it where does your awareness stop that's a good question earlier I would have said death but I don't know that's in time what about in space in space right now I still it's my body there is still separation for me it still hasn't dissolved let this book dissolve that for you seriously all right good really good yeah there were some basic questions regarding flower ornament good good good I I had few question so what do they mean by 10 directions like I have keep hearing dire actually you can figure that out 10 directions what could they be 10 directions I know four directions is it in different dimensions okay there's four directions what are the four directions uh not southeast west I always thought there was eight directions I mean if you take into consideration Northeast okay so that's eight that's eight directions now what could the other two be up and down hey now what have we got but mathematically you just need three okay yeah okay this is you don't need the South mathematically you don't need the Northeast South is like South is negative of North so you can represent anything in 3D plane yeah but do you live in a mathematical abstraction or do you live in a three-dimensional universe yeah I do live in a threedimensional universe and for that you just need three access to know what direction is of course you also need a origin but yeah no I don't think so sir I think if you were at the it was at night and you just had a little flashlight and a piece of paper and all the math in the world you wouldn't know which direction to head unless you have the Stars yeah that's why I said or what point of evidence okay all right well that's okay so now leave the math behind read this in the spirit in which it's written so you couldn't figure out what the 10 directions were really yeah I didn't know that we used to consider northeast southeast as directions if you kept going in the book if you kept going in the book you would have discovered that and the nater and the Zenith the nater and the Zenith right so now we have a world yeah right yeah and what is an eon I know these are basic questions but yeah what is an epic EP o c what is an epic let me just a particular period of time in history or person's life now all right what is an error a long and distinct period of History a system of chronology these are all vague terms oh they are okay now what is your question I guess what is an the you guys studied Einstein right in college and stuff what is a day and the night in the world diamonds blazing is a year in the world fragrant Waters a day and the night in in the world called fragrant Waters is a year in the world called Emerald trees so you you should have this see this what I mean you got to have at least digested relativity if you're going to approach these books uh with a modern mind otherwise you should just throw out the entire 20 21st centuries and say screw the science screw the math I'm just going to study this like a like a you know an acolyte you know but you don't need to do that it's much more fun think about it yeah so regarding the phrase that you brought up emerald tree like should I just literally visualize it as a you brought a face right phrase right a day here a tree with Emerald yeah a tree with Emerald leaves and a diamond trunk yeah like visualize it as why why why if I ask you to visualize a badger B A DG R is that so hard no now I want you to visualize that a wooden Badger yeah what about one made out of clay a badger made out of clay yeah it's easy what what's the problem open your mind this is what problem it's try it's trying to open your mind so yes as you go through let these things flow through your your mentation let your mind expand and soften and open right these guys know what they're doing all right yeah I just wanted to make sure like I of course no that's fine that's fine that's what that's what I'm here for [Music] to a point yeah and I was going through the first book and it I don't know it feels like there's a lot of repetition like it's K four five the first book is one of the ones that's difficult and tedious yeah like should I just literally read through all of them it's literally just saying how people attained Awakening in various different format like I said it's a psychoactive text it's a psychological instrument these guys know what they're doing Sutra has been around a long time because it works this is the the summit of Sutra I mean you can't deny that I mean no one's going to deny that if they've ever read it okay so yes it does not you know you know appeal to the impatient or to the lazy but to the serious man give it some time like I said 20 minutes a day and just keep going you'll see all right sir yeah and then all the Zen stuff all the Zen things will be trivia to you just you'll understand it all but you need a better mind for that and it's trying to give you a better mind okay next uh I yeah I don't think I have I think that was one practical question but not related to okay Siro keep on trucking yes good work keep going ciao