sometimes when I read these headlines and I see how Bleak it's painted in Tech I just get disgusted and I get frustrated for the people who are still out there trading their time and talent for Equity because it's not what's happening alphabet is laying off employees from eliminating 21,000 jobs when you look just at the headlines you're not going to find the real news but when you talk you know as I talk every week into my network and I understand what's happening in different companies how Equity packages are changing who's hiring what they're looking for the market is incredibly active but if all you're doing is scrolling your Google feed then you're ultimately Doing It [Music] Wrong welcome to Tech equity and money talk I'm your host Christopher Nelson and I want to welcome you to this episode I want to call out the obvious that if you've been listening for a while originally this podcast started off as Tech careers and money talk but starting today if you heard the intro if you heard what I said right now we are changing our brand to Tech equity and money talk and I want to speak into this because this is about the topic today the topic today is really what is the state of trading your time and talent for Equity today in 2024 and part of why we're making this pivot here is to focus to Double Down on Tech Equity when I first started the podcast I wanted to sit at this intersection of career and money and I did that for a year and had some incredible interviews and met some people that are doing some very impactful things for people who want to start working in Tech I think of Adam broa for people who want to grow their career and become Executives I think of Maya Grossman I had a lot of great interviews and there's a lot of people that are serving Tech technology employees who want to work and grow their career the questions that I get when people are emailing me they're responding to newsletters or they're going to the contact page uh on the podcast the questions are always around how do I figure out how to be a better investor of my time and trade for equity in a more efficient way or it's how do I manage the money after I get it and how do I get on this road to financial Independence and The more I've spent time in this education space I real realize that there is a huge deficit when it comes to this education around equity and around managing the money that comes with it so my strategy has always been to I want to double down on where people need the most help and also the the things that I feel most passionate about and while I do love career coaching and I have done some career coaching professionally I have done some career coaching you know as I worked in Tech many years I want to spend the time and the effort to really help people become better investors of their time and talent and then also understanding how do they build portfolios as a business to help drive themselves forward so Tech equity and money talk is how we're going to be positioned going forward yes this means that I will be changing this sign in the background and some of the schwag that I have as well so stay tuned for that but for this episode it is really important that we talk about what what is the state of trading your time and talent for Tech equity in 2024 so what this means is we need to look at what's going on with hiring with technology and companies that give Equity compensation now if you look at the headlines and you look at the news everybody loves to talk about layoffs layoffs layoffs layoffs whenever there's a sound bite or somebody can talk about the layoffs the tragedy people are going to you know and I'm talking about media Publications are going to talk about that for you though who are investing your time and talent it's important to understand that beyond the hype what's happening in big Tech is that companies are continuing to hire even while they're laying off in other areas the large Tech firms Google Amazon Amazon right now has a huge appetite and is hiring in a lot of different areas they are continuing to grow just like Microsoft just like Google just like meta now what happens is is because we are in this economic headwinds they're looking at areas of their business that aren't growing aren't doing as well from a bottom line perspective and they're reducing headcount there and they're replacing it in other areas the other thing that they're doing is they're also eliminating and thinning out middle management and they're hiring entry-level employees it's important that you as somebody who is a an investor of their time and who want to just trade not just for salary but also for Equity that you understand these Dynamics and the cycle isn't new when I entered the job market in 2001 stepping out to look for a job right in the middle of the dotcom implosion the same thing was everywhere the opportunity for myself as an entry-level employee I just had to wait until the job market and the opportunity opened up for me and so from you know when I was active in the job market September 2001 which was not a good time to be looking for a job it was April 2002 that I started working for Accenture 2008 it it was the same way 2008 2010 there was a lot of jobs dropping there were layoffs but it was in 2010 that it was post layoff at Splunk that I found an opportunity there and that turned out to be you know one of the most impactful jobs in my career and so I'm telling you this because you have to look beyond the headlines I know it's hard out there right now I talk with technology employees every single day and they tell me how hard it is to look for jobs they also tell me how hard it is to uh compete in this Marketplace because many things are changing the dynamic is changing but there's also a lot of people that are having a lot of success right now and what they're doing is they're leveraging their Network they're having a lot of conversations with people and they're continuing to stay positive and look and understand what's out there so the state of the job market I realize we have some headwinds right now and it's challenging there's also I want to talk about the you know this this going back to office there seems to be this this this war between remote hybrid you know and companies that are at you know having these mandates that say we need to return to office the reality is is we're just in a new paradigm we're in a brand new paradigm where there are companies that are still being built 100% remote there are companies that are going to go public in the next five to seven years that just like gitlab who I worked for and took public in 2021 never had a main office that's out there there's also these larger more established companies your Google Amazon Facebook meta Netflix you name it larger companies that have had office spaces that have contracts that have a way that they're used to working that their company is used to functioning that want to bring people back into the office and the interesting thing is that for employees I have heard from different employees different things I have had a technology employee tell me I need to go to the office I need to be out of the house I love to be with my co-workers I love to be in this very collaborative environment I do not want to work from home I've also talk and know people who I only want to work from home I also know people that really enjoy the hybrid they enjoy a little bit of both so looking beyond the headlines that want to just talk about dragging people back to work or want to create all these positions it's important that you understand what's important for you you know what is the environment that you want to look in so that you can understand the companies that have policies that align with what you want number one and then number two working on whatever skill set that is that's going to allow you to be the most productive working remote requires a different skill set than working in the office and in all of those environments you need to understand how you're going to continue to learn and grow yourself and continue to advance your skill set from you basic skills to expertise that's what's going to allow you to increase in value and actually trade for more Equity the other thing I think it's important to call out in this age of you know in 2024 when we're looking at trading our time and talent for Equity is AI we have to call it out AI right now is the most disruptive technology that's out there and it's also the most hyped technology that's out there as well but this has a tremendous impact in the work environment so let's look beyond the headlines let's look beyond the hype of AI is going to you know take everybody's jobs AI is going to do these things what's what is AI really doing so it seems like in when we think about jobs and we think about how AI is going to impact jobs There Was An ernston Young study a survey that was done and it says 50% of of leaders and tech companies anticipate a a combination of layoffs and hiring in and around the AI space because they want to hire people that have ai skills because AI SK are going to be essential at the same time you know they they are also on the other hand 61% are saying that it's going to be difficult to find the AI Talent so what does that mean to you and I think for all of us as technology employees we need to understand that when there is new technology on the horizon becoming an early adopter of it and understanding how it can help you is going to be essential in advancing your career in these disruptive ages I didn't realize it at the time but as I was in the CRM implementation space in the early 2000s I had the opportunity to start working in SAS in 2004 implementing salesforce.com this was you four to six years before Mo most people this helped me advance my career faster meaning that I got more responsibility more opportunities to lead to take on high-risk projects to actually travel the globe and then I was able to leverage that in the exchange for Equity so this is the real opportunity for you as well is again let's push the headlines aside that talk about firing replacing your jobs and let's look at the real data that says while 50% know there's going to be layoffs and they want to hire people 61% know that there's not the talent that they need that's your opportunity companies are going to reshape their Workforce to be more AI Savvy that means that the more you understand the more that you can retrain and focus in that direction the better because here's the good news this is how technology works is AI related roles right now are offering 78% higher salaries than other occupations now I think that stat you know I got it from a job site I think that they may be talking about also to non-tech Industries as well so I don't think that 78% um would be directly against you know a current salary however it's important to understand that I know cyber security roles I saw that as I was adjacent to cesos and they were doing hiring I saw how the salaries were increasing 20% year-over-year this is the same type of opportunity that's available for AI and when we work in technolog ology to be able to get value when we're trading our time we need to be able to ramp up to these new technologies so this is the this is the opportunity many many technology leaders 85% believe that emerging technology is also going to have positive impact on the workplace and this is one of the things that I've heard from from peers and colleagues that are still working in in it inside of technology companies is that it's removing a lot of low-level work and allowing people to have work that's more strategic that's having work that's more rewarding so taking a step back and thinking so what is the state what's the state 2024 we're halfway through the year trading your time and talent for Equity looking beyond the hype there's still opportunity technology is not going away there is still hiring it is a tough job market that's just the reality however the opportunity is especially around Ai and new technologies if you can ramp up on these new skills There's an opportunity to make more in salary and trade that for more INE Equity those are the things as somebody who trades their time and talent for Equity you want to understand is how do you become more of the asset and trade in the marketplace the other thing we know is regardless of the return to office or hybrid or remote remote companies are here to stay they're growing their footprint is growing you need to choose where you want to work you need to choose the environment that you want to work in and part of that also has to do with your financial goals if you really want big Tech equity which has a huge value which is liquid which is uh you know growing even in these environments you may then need to return to office that may be part of it or you just need to negotiate and understand if there's a hybrid work environment or something that can allow you to accomplish your financial goals that's the important thing from the mindset perspective now we' talked about the headwinds in the market we've talked about some of the challenges there's also some amazing things that are happening right now in trading your time and talent for Equity that you need to be aware of in this challenging job market where there are layoffs when people see other people laid off what happens they get scared they want to understand if they're valued so how companies respond to this especially technology companies that provide Equity as part part of the compensation is they then need to leverage that Equity to retain employees so right now 50% of technology companies have made some Strategic Equity related increases since 2023 meaning that they look across and so when I was a manager and and managed people in in sometimes large organizations large Global organizations we always had What's called the nine box the nine box identifies who are your key employees who are your critical employees and when you're up and to the right in the nine box and you are an essential employee or you are a key employee somebody who is helping to grow somebody who has upside somebody who's got essential information in in keeping the company moving forward we're going to make sure that you are happy we're going to make sure that you have additional Equity that we're you know slapping the gold handcuffs on you and that you're content this is happening right now in this environment and it's important that you're aware because if you're somewhere where there are layoffs going on there's an opportunity for you to understand you know what is the reality of a retention bonus or retention Equity so what's a strategy how would you approach it I would approach it with going to my my hiring manager and saying hey there's a lot of layoffs what are we doing to retain and keep employees here like what's the strategy you're not going to ask for what you can get right now you're trying to ask general questions as as a shareholder in the company what are we doing to retain Talent how do you evaluate talent these are all reasonable questions that you can be asking your manager that will give you insight into what they're doing and then when you're having your one-on-one and you're talking about your career and where you're going you want to understand are you key Talent are you essential Talent if not what does it take to get there all managers want their employees to desire to become key and essential talent because then they have a a team that is providing a lot of impact to the business those are fair questions to ask so right now in this environment good news equity Rel ated increases there's also upskilling in staff retention through education this goes back to what I was saying before now we have the ability to command higher salaries through AI what kind of education is your company offering it's so easy for us to get over busy to overlook the opportunities that may be staring Us in the face because we're working really hard and we're tired if there is free education you need to take the opportunity to upskill and especially things that are going to increase your value with the company and then allow you to trade for more Equity or to be retained for more Equity one of the things that I'm most excited about that I have seen changes in 2024 that I haven't seen in the in the previous five or six years inside of equity compensation is flexibility in and around the vesting schedule so when we when we think about trading our time in talent for Equity when we sit at the negotiating table we're trading for an amount of equity and then we're also negotiating we should be negotiating for how fast and how frequent does that Equity come to us that's the vesting schedule most people are familiar with the four-year vesting schedule of 25% each year with the one-year Cliff meaning that you don't get any Equity till the end of year one then after that the equity comes to either monthly or quarterly in tranches of that 25% per year what I've seen this year in what's happening is companies understand that flexible vesting is now a tool that they can use to attract employees to retain employees and to also incent employees incent them around big projects and sent them around company goals this year I heard of a front-loaded vesting schedule meaning that it was a three-year vest where they got 50% in the first year 30% and then 20% this was by a pre-ipo startup company that was wanting to attract Talent away from larger more established companies because in this environment hearing about layoffs hearing about uncertainty especially in the financial markets of being able to take companies public that they wanted to attract employees so they created this front investing schedule and they're they're also known to give very generous refreshes too to then keep you locked in and from a company's perspective you know if if you just work there one year you feel great you take 50% off the table you they may be able to then walk away from a scenario and want to transition to another employee or they then sweeten and give you additional dollar or additional uh equity in investing so this is something that's very exciting it's not written anywhere in the news you're hearing it here Tech equity and money talk this is what we talk about and this is so important that for you working in technology you're apprised of all these things that are going on so that you can understand what's going on in your company because when there's Market uncertainty when there's you know this fluctuation of of people are getting laid off they want to retain people and the the ultimate goal of Equity compensation is to attract and retain the best employees regardless of the market and certainty all of these companies still have a laser focus to meet their company goals and they're going to meet those company goals by attracting and retaining the best employees that means that this Market is going to create changes in equity compensation that you have the opportunity to participate in if you understand what's going on if you understand the rules of the game and that's what I love to talk about here is what are the rules of the game so let's just put a bow on that for second 2024 trading your time and talent for Equity choppy Market lot of headwinds there's layoffs there's also hiring there's you know this go you know return to the office you're going to have to make a choice there's also AI skill up an AI create more value for yourself trade for more salary trade for more Equity then there's also great news this Market uncertainty is creating changes in equity compensation that can greatly benefit you in this uncertain Market they're giving away more Equity understand what your company is doing or understand if this is the time for you to go out to Market and trade for another company there's also changes that are happening with vesting schedule stay apprised ask questions ask your HR what they doing what they've heard are they getting educated it's so important that we are educated business people managing our own careers walking into HR and letting them see who we are because if technology employees if technology companies desire to attract and retain the best employees they're going to get people who understand their value who understand the marketplace who understand how Equity compensation this game is played the rules around it and they're going to come with a lot of questions and normally we do so I want to walk through right now what are three things that you can be doing to be successful in this Marketplace this Marketplace hard challenging but tons of opportunities so what do you need to be doing well you have to look at the story beyond the hype I think so many people you doom scroll on Google News and just read oh my it's so dramatic it's so this oh I'm I'm going to click on all the layoffs and what's happening and that news is important I'm not trying to say it's not important but you have to look beyond that to find out some of these things that we just talked about and you getting educated is you know asking these questions to your to your HR team what are they doing what what is their r attention strategy what is uh you know what how are they approaching some of these new changes to equity compensation and you position this questioning as somebody who is a a investor of their time and somebody who's also a part owner in the company you're a shareholder so you're allowed and expected to ask ask these kind of questions and the other thing is is is looking for resources you know think think of you know Tech equity and money news our newsletter where we we talk about these types of things as well we did articles earlier this year about the changes in um the the vesting schedules but find other sources of data that that give you you know the reality of what's happening in the job market to be educated and and I say that because you know for myself having worked many years in Tech it's easy to to get the message and to be in that you know frustrated mindset not thinking that there's any opportunity especially when there's challenges but when you look Beyond this and I find that that this isn't true just in investing your time and talent this is true in investing in general because there's there's lots of opportunities and down markets you have to have the mindset and you have to have the ability to find out where that data is and seek it so that's number one is look beyond the hype find data sources that you can trust and and get informed and then and then put together a game plan I think whenever you're in a situation like this where there are headwinds there are opportunities you want to stick to your fundamentals you want to stick to the basics this is not the time to you know start changing anything so what are the fundamentals of trading your time and talent for Equity the fundamentals are you are the asset your skills that are being developed to expertise are what bring value to a company and the more that you can help that company execute to its goals in a timely fashion and an efficient fashion the more you will get compensated in salary and in equity and if you can equip other people to do the same thing if you can build teams to do that you'll get even more that's why leaders get paid so much is because they can scale and bring together teams that can accomplish very impactful goals for an organization that's why they get comp so well so don't forget get you're the asset take time invest in yourself take care of yourself mental health physical health take care of yourself and then understand and know what you're worth so that you can negotiate for that also don't forget what's on the other side of the table in the midst of all of this chaos and especially we have a lot of AI companies that are popping up getting a ton of funding and are throwing a lot of equity around get rooted in the fundamentals of what is the most valuable Equity what is the the most valuable Equity when people ask me that I say it's Equity that has three attributes number one it's liquid ill liquid Equity is not as valuable as liquid Equity I'm not saying don't invest in that I worked for three preo companies that then went through an IPO and got liquid equity and that was part of my strategy but the reality is is in in this down and challenging Market going to work for for a public company and there's plenty of them not just big Tech too there a lot of smaller companies right you think of uh crowd strike zscaler just had a pop in their stock uh this last week I saw I mean there's a lot of companies that are doing really well out there that are public and their stock is liquid it's liquid and it's growing those are two valuable attributes and the third most valuable attribute is that there's no there's the least amount of restrictions on when you can trade when you can get that liquid because the fundamentals of Building Wealth with tech Equity is you build it in concentration you keep it and you grow it through diversification so once you start building up that position in a single company the goal isn't to become you know a majority shareholder in the company that you're working for it's to build out a diversified and growing portfolio that can support you and your family for this and the Next Generation so don't lose your focus on the fundamentals stick to the game plan make sure that you have some clear goals and execute to a process so that you can remove the emotion from it as well and then I'd say the third thing is always be building your skills as a negotiator now is the best time to build your skills as a negotiator and I'm double clicking on this because this is where I tend to get a lot of questions and this is where I've been providing some Services recently to help people negotiate for Equity compensation packages or evaluate should I stay should I go and negotiating Equity negotiating salary is hard for a lot of people it's hard and I know when I first started off it was very hard for me and the opportunity to negotiate will constantly present itself and it presents itself like this is when you sit down with your manager and you're having conversations around compensation it starts by you knowing what is your worth in The Market Place hey you know Bobby for for lack of a better word let's just my imaginary boss hey Bobby do you realize that directors at my level in company X Y and Z they're getting this type of compensation package what do you think about that what you seeing for compensation at your level right you're trying to engage somebody in a conversation that says what's their observation of the marketplace then you take that conversation from okay I'm seeing this in the marketplace what am I seeing here what's my comp level and help me understand if there's a difference now if there's a positive difference that's great then you want to make sure that you're having the conversation like am I really am I really worth that it's important that you understand that because if you if your boss is articulating to you yes we're we're comping you above because you're X Y or Z those things need to go into the notes those need to go into the notes because if you're you know being overly compensated and I know there was there was a couple points in my career where I was specifically told we're comping you above market for X Y or Z because we need to get this accomplished we want to make sure that you're happy we want to make sure that you're satisfied okay those are the open and direct conversations that are it's important that you get comfortable having and it starts by you know at making sure that you you know your compensation level in the marketplace and you're actually having conversations about your observations and what you see and what's changing you can have conversations uh with your you know there's usually in in technology you have a HR business partner hey HR business partner I'm seeing that these other companies are doing different things with vesting schedules for for employee retention what are we doing for employee retention well why do you ask well just shareholder the company I'm just curious what we're doing I see you know a lot of things changing I see a very uh exciting AI Market environment out there what are we doing I'm curious the great news is this is where understanding your value as a shareholder as a somebody who is a part owner in the company who's asking inquisitive questions on the health and nature of the business is natural you have to be able to get comfortable having those conversations but it should be very natural because if the company has everybody who's focused on the customer the product and how we're being more effective efficient and competitive in the marketplace if everybody is doing that in the company it's going to be amazing and I've seen that at a few companies and those companies did amazing things I was at Splunk when we went from 150 million to a billion in 5 Years everybody thought like an owner and it was amazing and everybody was open and welcome to these different types of conversations this is where I learned a lot of this and so it's important that you're able to have the conversation and you can mark yourself to Market and then you have the conversation of you know what what is the Delta and why is it am I above Market am I below Market am I at market and help me understand why why am I being valued this way what am I bringing to the table now some of those conversations can be hard if you feel like you're not you know meeting some of those expectations or you're below expectations but if you feel like you are above expectations then that is where you get everything aligned because you will only be able to get what you're worth if you know your value and if you're able to have conversations around it you need to be able to have conversations and this is the more you develop this and this is why I tell everyone right now start developing these skills start asking these questions there's a lot of uncertainty in the market you could be encouraging your manager to be having that conversation as well to be thinking about it feel free to direct him to this podcast to this episode because the more people that are having these conversations the more we're building out this environment that says it's okay to talk about Equity compensation it's okay to negotiate to understand all of these things the more we're ultimately going to be able to make in the long run it's true so I'm going to wrap it up with those three things so the three things that you want to do in this environment is you want to look at the story Bey beyond the hype look for the data what's really happening in the marketplace ask questions you're out there in these companies every day what's going on at your company what are they uh planning a training so that everybody can skill up an AI great what or is there some opportunity for you to go get some money go get a certificate but look beyond the hype get the news take action number two remember the fundamentals of trading your time and talent for Equity you are the asset you need to invest in yourself to grow from basic skills to becoming an expert and that can be in in something that that you're an individual contributor or it can be in becoming a lead either or but you're the asset number two don't lose sight of the rules of the game you are here to work for liquid equity in growing companies that you can sell when you want to those are the three factors that give the the highest value to equity and you need to have a line of sight of how to get there period and number three always always work on your skill to negotiate and learn how to improve always you know and I get comfortable having these uncomfortable conversations so thank you so much for joining this is Tech equity and Money Talk we're here to talk about Equity we're here to talk about money and how you can trade your time and talent for equity and accelerate Financial Independence thank you very much Christopher Nelson