Insights from the Holy Fire Ceremony

The Holy Fire - Testimony of historical significance The Abbot and Sacristan of the Holy Sepulchre, Archbishop Isidoros, reveals for the fist time, the way that the Holy Fire is lit. Two oil lamps enter the Holy Sepulcher, before the Patriarch does. "I light both of them, over the Holy Holy Sepulchre" (with a lighter) The interview was given to Dimitris Alikakos, journalist and author of the book-investigation: "Redemption - The Case of the Holy Fire" Time of the recording of the historical testimony: 26/11/2018 Place: Jerusalem I wanted to start, Your Excellency, from what you told me, if we could somehow approach the dating of the candle, which enters the Holy Sepulcher. I have been curious for years and many times about the candle, it does not bear any inscription on it, nor any date on it, but I have called the craftsman, because we have repaired it many times, the cross had some problems, had melted due to the flame, they had done some repairs in the past, and I asked him and he told me that judging by the technique on it, it must be from around 1840 to 1850-60, in this period. - Estimated. - Estimated by the technique on it. Now it could be older or younger, we can't really know. So, if we assume it's in that period, and we go back, do we have written testimonies, or if it has been passed down in oral tradition, what was going on before this candle existed? No, there are none. And in the Vault where we keep all the relics of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, there is no second candle or any older one. - It's the only one we have. - The only one. And most of the relics we have, is from 1800 and 1750... the majority. So can we hypothesize how the ritual was done before? Do we have sources? Can we reach some conclusion? We don't have any specific sources, no. But more or less it must have been the same, because the Sacristan... - With another candle? Maybe another candle, maybe the same one, if it's older. I mean before this candle existed. I don't know, there are no testimonies. - There are no testimonies, we have no written documents. Now, from here on out. That is, since the candle has existed, which we date, as you also said, to around the middle of the 19th century. About this particular candle, do we have testimonies, or oral tradition, that to this day it is used continuously every year? Yes yes, non-stop. That's for sure right? - Yes sure. Because there is no other. It's the only one we have. I mean maybe at some point the ritual of entering the candle - the candle may be from the middle of the 19th century - but the ritual started 50-60 years later. No, I do not think so. You say that it is the same as when the... Because we only use it that day for the ceremony of the Holy Fire and then we put it back in the Vault inside, because it is not used for anything else. It is exclusive to that Ceremony. That is, there is no wear and tear to say that someone has to repair it, or that we have to get a new one. I want you to tell me a little about your own years when you first came. When did you come to the Patriarchate? I came as a student to the Patriarchal School in 1986. - What age? - 13 years old. I came in the second year of high school. And you finished the School. I finished the high school, the Patriarchal School in Zion, and since 1991, I have been serving at the Holy Sepulcher, until today. I became a cadet, a monk, a deacon, a priest, and now a high priest and Vault Keeper. And for how far I've come, I thank God for qualifying me. to serve the greatest ministry, to be the Sacristan and Abbot of the Holy Sepulcher. And in fact for the last five years I have been a high priest. How many Sacristans are alive right now? Formerly Sacristans, of course. Sacristans... There are two right now. One is Iordanou Theophylactos and the other one is the Patriarch, Sacristan before he was elected patriarch. Two Sacristans. - Living. - Yes, living. One who has been excommunicated from the Patriarchate, who is no longer... Oh yes, there is also Nikiforos who has been excommunicated from the Patriarchate. - Also counts as a former one. - Yes, yes, he was a former Sacristan. And before him I think it was Daniel... - Yes, who died. The archimandrite Andreas was for a time second Sacristan, and he died due to some illness... Polykarpos, current second Sacristan, he is in Bethlehem if I'm not mistaken? Yes, he has now been transferred to Bethlehem. - However, he has kept title of second Sacristan? No, he is a Sacristan in Bethlehem. So now who is the second Sacristan? - At the moment there is none, the position is vacant. - Oh, the position is vacant. - Yes. Because I remember in the last conversation we had, when I asked you if, by accident anything were to happen, how this ritual, which we have discussed, would pass to the next Sacristan. And I remember you told me "there is also the second Sacristan". But now, from what I understand, there is no... The ritual is usually known by very few, and the ministers who have worked in the Temple for years know how the ritual is done. Yes, but perhaps they don't know about the detail... Okay, they don't know some specific details, but okay... How... practically how will they know... if they know it goes in... some tell me that the candle enters already lit, but some who know that it enters unlit and lights up inside [Holy Sepulcher] and they are very few, from what I understand. If by accident anything happens, how will the next person know? Who will tell him? Well, it is known... From what I understand, those who say the truth, they don't know this detail. For example, His Excellency Aristarchus did not know it, not this detail. Ok, they don't exactly know a little "detail"... Yes, but that little "detail" makes a difference though. It doesn't make a difference, it's the essence. This "detail" is essential, because if you don't know it, the whole process is ruined. You're saying someone will... somehow be informed, is that what you're trying to tell me? Some know the whole ritual, they know... So shall we say the ritual from the beginning? How many minutes have you been sitting up when we see you on TV, coming from... You come out of the Vault, make the circle, pass in front of the Stone of the Descent from the Cross... There is a room in front of the Stone of the Descent from the Cross, where the candle starts from. In front is the Dragoumanos, the master of ceremony, two cavassians, and we pass by in procession, we pass in front of the chapel of the Armenians of the incense-bearers, we enter from the south side of the rotunda, and I stand in front of the entrance to the Holy Sepulcher, and Ι wait for the dragoman to take out the wax that has sealed the Canopy. It will take around 5 to 10 minutes. While you stand. Until they take out all this cork wax, let them divide it among themselves, and then I will enter. Who signals you to come in? On TV we have seen that in recent years an Israeli policeman signals you... - No, the dragoman. - The dragoman? As soon as he takes out the candle... and I can see ahead... he motions for me to pass. How long are you staying in? Inside I leave the oil lamp... a minute at most. - About a minute. - Yes. And? You leave the oil lamp... and what do you do? - Shall we say it on camera? - Let's say it, let's say it, why not say it. I don't know if it's right... the testimony. It is a historical testimony. A historical testimony and it is the truth. It is not only historical, it is the truth. Look... because I hold an accountable position now in the Temple, I would not like to offend the religious feeling. Do you think the truth hurts or elevates the religious feeling? It lifts, but at this moment there is... Know the truth, said Jesus, and let the truth set you free. - Isn't the Fire sanctified? - Certainly. This is not a worthy reality and it is ultimately Orthodoxy and the meaning of the Ceremony, the consecration of the Fire that the believer takes, and takes to their home or to their own people... Exactly, I just wouldn't want to now specifically tell in front of cameras in detail exactly what is happening. I don't want you to get into details, I want to ask you: You go in, light it over the Holy Sepulchre, and leave to be found lit by the Patriarch. Is it so or not? So it is. That's what's happening? Right. You light the Guardians' oil lamp as well. Yes, there are two oil lamps. The one that the Sacristan carries and a second one. - And a second one. Which you also light. And that one. That oil lamp, which is like a privilege of the Guardians, from what I understood, when did this privilege start? Do you have any recollection? Are there sources for this? Does it exist for 10? 20? 50? 100? 200 years? We had the deceased Taborius [Daniel], who was telling us about this from the time he came to the Temple. That is, when? Around 1930 when he came to the temple, since then they put the oil lamp. Oh, they've been putting the oil lamp ever since! So it existed even earlier. And obviously, we can assume that it goes in and lights up as a failsafe? This is used more as a blessing by the Guardians who serve at the Holy Sepulcher... The Guardians yes, they consider it a privilege as the eldest of the Guardians told me, they themselves consider it a privilege to put the oil lamp, but the oil lamp you light ... Yes, one can also call it a failsafe... - Like a failsafe. - Yes. Your Excellency, you were initiated, so to speak, into this process, this ritual. By whom? We know it from the deceased Taborius Daniel. He was a Sacristan in the period of 2001, when Patriarch Diodoros died, a year before 2002, he had to because the Patriarch had a health problem, he could not enter the Holy Sepulcher inside alone, and they asked then from the regime of Armenians and Latins,that one of ours also attend inside, to enter and help the Patriarch, because he could not enter the Holy Sepulcher alone. And they chose Daniel, because he had been a Sacristan for years. And at that moment, he told us exactly what we had to do for the entire ceremony of the Holy Fire. - So he told you the secret in 200... - In 2000. Daniel was the one. What exactly were we supposed to do with the oil lamp... - Who did he tell? Were there many? He told me and at that time also vicar Nektarios, who is now a "chamberlain" of the Patriarchate. Up until that moment what did you think? Okay... it made sense... With the whole ceremony that was going on... any minister who is at the Holy Sepulcher and serves, can also understand, there's no need... Yes, but did you know exactly the "detail" that the Sacristan has to light the oil lamp or did you, like many, think it goes in already lit? Not lit, because it would be visible. So when Daniel told you, you weren't surprised? Not really. Just confirmation. Can you describe your feelings to me? How did you feel? Did your faith diminish? Not at all. It did not diminish because what we call sanctification still applies, right? Sanctification applies, and I, both as a student and later, have seen the miracle of the Holy Fire. Just there was one... at that moment one... what do they call it... what we believed and saw in the Temple that we suspected... Was the suspicion confirmed? Confirmed, exactly, how specifically the Ceremony takes place. Who else did you initiate from here on out? Have you initiated other monks or... No one. Haven't you told anyone? - No, no. That is, if a monk comes, I saw so many youngsters down in the Temple, and they ask you "Your Excellency, I want you to tell me the truth". Won't you tell him? To the monk? I will say up to the point of "bringing the oil lamp into the Holy Sepulcher". We wouldn't get into details... And yet some people know it. I saw that someone knows. Okay it makes sense... everyone can see it... it doesn't take much... imagination for someone to see what exactly... they watch the ceremony as it is done and understand. They watch ceremony, but they see a man come in with a oil lamp unlit... looks like this, because the oil lamp is covered, isn't it? It's visible [if it's lit] because it has like a net... - It has the net. There are so many people, guards right and left, one can easily see if the oil lamp is lit. Let's examine another case, which happened recently and I told you again, in March, when a Guardian attacked an Armenian bishop, who said that the Patriarch lights his candles from the oil lamp. And he himself has seen it in front of him. And the Guardian rushed, we saw it on TV, and passionately supported the "miracle". That "you lie, it's really a miracle". Why did he do it? He does not know [the secret]? Maybe he doesn't know. - Does he not know or is he lying? - He's a new Guardian. Do you assume for sure that he doesn't know? Because it matters if he reacted out of knowledge or out of ignorance. Out of ignorance. - Out of ignorance. - Yes. But if I were in his position at that time, I also would react... to go into the Holy Sepulcher... Would you react like that? Okay, not that way... I might have stopped him at that moment inside the Holy Sepulchre. If he wants to give an interview or anything he can outside the Temple, but inside the Holy Sepulcher... If he said it outside, wouldn't you mind? That is what you mean? I wouldn't accept it in front of me. No, if he was outside, in the yard or somewhere else. - Okay, I wouldn't react. Did it bother you that this was said over the Holy Sepulcher? Well yes, inside the Holy Sepulcher, there was also the Guardian in front of him at the time... in front of the camera also... Yes, but didn't he... support a truth? Didn't he tell the truth? That's what we're trying to do, just don't go into details right now, we don't want to hurt the religious feeling of every person who comes from Greece, who has experiences that he's lived, he's done... So you want to tell me: let the believer understand it either from the prayer's words, or with their logic... Anyone can understand it with their logic, if they read the prayer... If they read the prayer, but let's not tell him... We don't need to go into details of exactly what is happening... If any believer studies the Prayer of the Holy Fire, the entire Ceremony, they understands the religious part, they understand what exactly... We don't need to get into details of what exactly is happening and how it is happening. A miracle, every person can see and feel it, it depends... - On a personal level. - On a personal level. But we're talking about how it lights up. This phrase was removed [from the website of the Patriarchate]. There are two matters: How the holy oil lamp is lit and how it is sanctified. These are two different things. How it is sanctified, after the Divine Grace descends, is a miracle. In this sense of miracle. - Agreed. But how it lights up is not a miracle. No, of course it's not a miracle. So can't we say that? Yes, we can, and many say so. And many have been spreading it freely, even for years. And I see that, and it's really impressive, that you, as a Sacristan, decided to say it, you say it. In a way, but you say it. Yes. Do you think it is compatible with Christian truth ethics? That we can't lie? We certainly can't lie. Does this affect you, your refusal to lie? For sure. As a priest? As a priest and high priest, of course, I cannot go out in public and lie about what exactly is happening, we have to believe the religious part. As in the Liturgy, it doesn't happen suddenly or its own. We put wine and it turns into Blood. We put bread and it turns into Body. The same with consecration and unction. They don't happen on their own. Do you believe that even though you enter, light the oil lamp, and leave, the Patriarch, every Patriarch, has taken his measures so that, one in a million, has a source of fire with him? I don't know... In my opinion, he will definitely have something. If something went wrong I don't know what he would do at that moment... In your estimation certainly. So that he can bring the Fire out to the congregation, right? For sure. He can't play with odds. Well, for sure. I want you to tell me how you feel that you can, and have the courage and the bravery to tell the truth. Okay, we can't... it is known that every Christian understands exactly what is happening. We cannot say that we go to the Holy Sepulcher and perform a miracle, the respective patriarch goes and prays and lights the flame by itself. There are some things that do not stand up to logic. The miracle that a person experiences in person... is different from how the whole Ceremony begins. So, the consecration is a miracle, the lighting of the flame is a natural process. So we distinguish them. So we distinguish them. Have you discussed this matter with the current Patriarch? The process, the ritual and the oil lamp. No, never. Not even when he was a Sacristan, for a while. No. It's just that as a Patriarch and as a Sacristan... the matter is very delicate, and anyone when they speak in public, they must be careful of what exactly they say and mention. Do you believe that someone speaking should say "I don't want to answer", should tell the truth in a way to the believer can bear it, or lie? Which of the three? To tell the truth in a nice way for the believer to accept it. Not to be confrotentional. A hierarch does it and I'm impressed that an archbishop, in front of dozens of people, told them how the Fire lights, and a hundred people below, in the Sepulchre, were starring with awe and no one reacted. But he explained it theologically. The opposite has also happened. - Meaning? He was giving a tour to a group and was explaining to them, in front of the yard of the Holy Sepulchre, about the Holy Fire, and by chance a group of Old Calendarists passed by, and they rushed to hit him. If I wasn't there to stop them, they would have beaten him. Who? Theophanes, the despot, yes. Did such a thing happen? - To beat him? - Yes, they rushed, attacked him. If I wasn't there at the moment, and other Fathers, they would have beaten him. With such a hatred they rushed that he mentioned Holy Fire was not a miracle... if we weren't there, they would have beaten him. So you got in front of them? - Yes. So this is also dangerous, right? - Yes. You have... how to present this to a believer. Someone is convinced of what exactly is happening and somebody goes to tell him that it is not exactly the way he thinks, and he can react... Yes but it isn't just "somebody" saying this, but the one knowing more than them. You know more than anyone and I will tell you that you are wrong? It needs some audacity for me to tell you that... And yet it happens. Where do you attribute that? To religious fanaticism? Mostly yes, and the ignorance of theology. Yes, ignorance, but you tell them, you explain it... It is hard, someone may not understand. So do you consider this the right religiosity? No. This is religious fanaticism. Fanaticism. - Yes. This incident, that now I learn from you, did it affect you, scare you? No, it did not scare me. So there was use of force? Did they reach out to hit him? Yes, they rushed, and also cursed him a "traitor"... so many curses he heard that day. But I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart that you spoken to me with theological words, you explained to me the "miracle of the Holy Fire". Why he call it "Ceremony of the Holy Fire" and not "miracle". I want to thank you for explaining to me, additionally, what is the Cexactly, how the Fire lights and then that it is sanctified, with the Grace of the Holy Spirit and of course the praying words, which we shouldn't underestimate, right? And I wish all that to result to something, I will phrase it the way I think it, to relieve the Brotherhood a bit of all this weight that there's something to be hidden. We do not hide anything. You don't? It's true that in our first communication, I pressed you a bit. Yes, the first time. It's true that you were pressed. I think that when you said it, I think I saw, I may be wrong, some emotion in your look, by saying this truth, or let me rephrase: you could not lie. Okay, I cannot. - You cannot lie. No, no. This does you credit. Honestly credits you Your Excellency. And I hope and wish for the word "fear" to not exist inside you. No. Not in any way. I'm glad.

The Holy Fire - Testimony of historical significance The Abbot and Sacristan of the Holy Sepulchre, Archbishop Isidoros, reveals for the fist time, the way that the Holy Fire is lit. Two oil lamps enter the Holy Sepulcher, before the Patriarch does. "I light both of them, over the Holy Holy Sepulchre" (with a lighter) The interview was given to Dimitris Alikakos, journalist and author of the book-investigation: "Redemption - The Case of the Holy Fire" Time of the recording of the historical testimony: 26/11/2018
Place: Jerusalem I wanted to start, Your Excellency, from what you told me, if we could somehow approach the dating of the candle, which enters the Holy Sepulcher. I have been curious for years and many times about the candle, it does not bear any inscription on it, nor any date on it, but I have called the craftsman, because we have repaired it many times, the cross had some problems, had melted due to the flame, they had done some repairs in the past,  and I asked him and he told me that judging by the technique on it, it must be from around 1840 to 1850-60, in this period. - Estimated.
- Estimated by the technique on it. Now it could be older or younger, we can't really know.  So, if we assume it's in that period, and we go back, do we have written testimonies, or if it has been passed down in oral tradition, what was going on before this candle existed? No, there are none. And in the Vault where we keep all the relics of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, there is no second candle or any older one. - It's the only one we have.
- The only one.  And most of the relics we have, is from 1800 and 1750... the majority. So can we hypothesize how the ritual was done before? Do we have sources? Can we reach some conclusion? We don't have any specific sources, no.  But more or less it must have been the same, because the Sacristan...
- With another candle? Maybe another candle, maybe the same one, if it's older. I mean before this candle existed. I don't know, there are no testimonies. 
- There are no testimonies, we have no written documents. Now, from here on out. That is, since the candle has existed, which we date, as you also said, to around the middle of the 19th century. About this particular candle, do we have testimonies, or oral tradition, that to this day it is used continuously every year? Yes yes, non-stop. That's for sure right?
- Yes sure. Because there is no other. It's the only one we have. I mean maybe at some point the ritual of entering the candle - the candle may be from the middle of the 19th century - but the ritual started 50-60 years later. No, I do not think so.  You say that it is the same as when the...  Because we only use it that day for the ceremony of the Holy Fire and then we put it back in the Vault inside,  because it is not used for anything else. It is exclusive to that Ceremony. That is, there is no wear and tear to say that someone has to repair it,  or that we have to get a new one. I want you to tell me a little about your own years when you first came. When did you come to the Patriarchate?  I came as a student to the Patriarchal School in 1986. - What age? 
- 13 years old.  I came in the second year of high school.  And you finished the School.  I finished the high school, the Patriarchal School in Zion, and since 1991, I have been serving at the Holy Sepulcher, until today.  I became a cadet, a monk, a deacon, a priest, and now a high priest and Vault Keeper. And for how far I've come, I thank God for qualifying me. to serve the greatest ministry, to be the Sacristan and Abbot of the Holy Sepulcher.  And in fact for the last five years I have been a high priest.  How many Sacristans are alive right now? Formerly Sacristans, of course. Sacristans...  There are two right now.  One is Iordanou Theophylactos and the other one is the Patriarch, Sacristan before he was elected patriarch. Two Sacristans. - Living.
- Yes, living. One who has been excommunicated from the Patriarchate, who is no longer...  Oh yes, there is also Nikiforos who has been excommunicated from the Patriarchate.  - Also counts as a former one.
- Yes, yes, he was a former Sacristan. And before him I think it was Daniel... 
- Yes, who died. The archimandrite Andreas was for a time second Sacristan, and he died due to some illness...  Polykarpos, current second Sacristan, he is in Bethlehem if I'm not mistaken?  Yes, he has now been transferred to Bethlehem. 
- However, he has kept title of second Sacristan?  No, he is a Sacristan in Bethlehem.  So now who is the second Sacristan? 
- At the moment there is none, the position is vacant.  - Oh, the position is vacant.
- Yes. Because I remember in the last conversation we had, when I asked you if, by accident anything were to happen, how this ritual, which we have discussed, would pass to the next Sacristan.  And  I remember you told me "there is also the second Sacristan". But now, from what I understand, there is no... The ritual is usually known by very few, and the ministers who have worked in the Temple for years know how the ritual is done. Yes, but perhaps they don't know about the detail...  Okay, they don't know some specific details, but okay...  How... practically how will they know... if they know it goes in... some tell me that the candle enters already lit, but some who know that it enters unlit and lights up inside [Holy Sepulcher] and they are very few, from what I understand. If by accident anything happens, how will the next person know? Who will tell him?  Well, it is known...  From what I understand, those who say the truth, they don't know this detail.  For example, His Excellency Aristarchus did not know it, not this detail.  Ok, they don't exactly know a little "detail"...  Yes, but that little "detail" makes a difference though. It doesn't make a difference, it's the essence. This "detail" is essential, because if you don't know it, the whole process is ruined. You're saying someone will... somehow be informed, is that what you're trying to tell me?  Some know the whole ritual, they know...  So shall we say the ritual from the beginning?  How many minutes have you been sitting up when we see you on TV, coming from... You come out of the Vault, make the circle, pass in front of the Stone of the Descent from the Cross... There is a room in front of the Stone of the Descent from the Cross, where the candle starts from. In front is the Dragoumanos, the master of ceremony, two cavassians, and we pass by in procession, we pass in front of the chapel of the Armenians of the incense-bearers, we enter from the south side of the rotunda, and I stand in front of the entrance to the Holy Sepulcher, and Ι wait for the dragoman to take out the wax that has sealed the Canopy. It will take around 5 to 10 minutes.  While you stand. Until they take out all this cork wax, let them divide it among themselves, and then I will enter. Who signals you to come in? On TV we have seen that in recent years an Israeli policeman signals you... - No, the dragoman. 
- The dragoman?  As soon as he takes out the candle... and I can see ahead... he motions for me to pass.  How long are you staying in?  Inside I leave the oil lamp... a minute at most.  - About a minute.
- Yes. And? You leave the oil lamp... and what do you do?  - Shall we say it on camera? 
- Let's say it, let's say it, why not say it.  I don't know if it's right... the testimony. It is a historical testimony. A historical testimony and it is the truth. It is not only historical, it is the truth. Look... because I hold an accountable position now in the Temple, I would not like to offend the religious feeling. Do you 	think the truth hurts or elevates the religious feeling?  It lifts, but at this moment there is...  Know the truth, said Jesus, and let the truth set you free.  - Isn't the Fire sanctified? 
- Certainly.  This is not a worthy reality and it is ultimately Orthodoxy and the meaning of the Ceremony, the consecration of the Fire that the believer takes, and takes to their home or to their own people...  Exactly, I just wouldn't want to now specifically tell in front of cameras in detail exactly what is happening. I don't want you to get into details, I want to ask you:  You go in, light it over the Holy Sepulchre, and leave to be found lit by the Patriarch.  Is it so or not?  So it is.  That's what's happening?  Right. You light the Guardians' oil lamp as well.  Yes, there are two oil lamps.  The one that the Sacristan carries and a second one. 
- And a second one. Which you also light. And that one.  That oil lamp, which is like a privilege of the Guardians, from what I understood,  when did this privilege start?  Do you have any recollection? Are there sources for this? Does it exist for 10? 20? 50? 100? 200 years? We had the deceased Taborius [Daniel], who was telling us about this from the time he came to the Temple. That is, when?  Around 1930 when he came to the temple, since then they put the oil lamp. Oh, they've been putting the oil lamp ever since!  So it existed even earlier.  And obviously, we can assume that it goes in and lights up as a failsafe?  This is used more as a blessing by the Guardians who serve at the Holy Sepulcher...  The Guardians yes, they consider it a privilege as the eldest of the Guardians told me, they themselves consider it a privilege to put the oil lamp, but the oil lamp you light ...  Yes, one can also call it a failsafe...  - Like a failsafe. 
- Yes.  Your Excellency, you were initiated, so to speak, into this process, this ritual.  By whom?  We know it from the deceased Taborius Daniel.  He was a Sacristan in the period of 2001, when Patriarch Diodoros died, a year before 2002, he had to because the Patriarch had a health problem, he could not enter the Holy Sepulcher inside alone, and they asked then from the regime of Armenians and Latins,that one of ours also attend inside, to enter and help the Patriarch, because he could not enter the Holy Sepulcher alone. And they chose Daniel, because he had been a Sacristan for years.  And at that moment, he told us exactly what we had to do for the entire ceremony of the Holy Fire. - So he told you the secret in 200...
- In 2000. Daniel was the one.  What exactly were we supposed to do with the oil lamp... 
- Who did he tell? Were there many? He told me and at that time also vicar Nektarios, who is now a "chamberlain" of the Patriarchate.  Up until that moment what did you think?  Okay... it made sense...  With the whole ceremony that was going on... any minister who is at the Holy Sepulcher and serves, can also understand, there's no need... Yes, but did you know exactly the "detail" that the Sacristan has to light the oil lamp or did you, like many, think it goes in already lit?  Not lit, because it would be visible.  So when Daniel told you, you weren't surprised?  Not really. Just confirmation. Can you describe your feelings to me? How did you feel? Did your faith diminish? Not at all.  It did not diminish because what we call sanctification still applies, right?  Sanctification applies, and I, both as a student and later, have seen the miracle of the Holy Fire. Just there was one... at that moment one... what do they call it... what we believed and saw in the Temple that we suspected... Was the suspicion confirmed?  Confirmed, exactly, how specifically the Ceremony takes place.  Who else did you initiate from here on out? Have you initiated other monks or...  No one.  Haven't you told anyone? 
- No, no.  That is, if a monk comes, I saw so many youngsters down in the Temple, and they ask you "Your Excellency, I want you to tell me the truth". Won't you tell him? To the monk?  I will say up to the point of "bringing the oil lamp into the Holy Sepulcher".  We wouldn't get into details...  And yet some people know it. I saw that someone knows. Okay it makes sense... everyone can see it... it doesn't take much... imagination for someone to see what exactly... they watch the ceremony as it is done and understand. They watch ceremony, but they see a man come in with a oil lamp unlit... looks like this, because the oil lamp is covered, isn't it? It's visible [if it's lit] because it has like a net...
- It has the net.  There are so many people, guards right and left, one can easily see if the oil lamp is lit. Let's examine another case, which happened recently and I told you again, in March, when a Guardian attacked an Armenian bishop, who said that the Patriarch lights his candles from the oil lamp.  And he himself has seen it in front of him. And the Guardian rushed, we saw it on TV, and passionately supported the "miracle". That "you lie, it's really a miracle". Why did he do it? He does not know [the secret]? Maybe he doesn't know.  - Does he not know or is he lying? 
- He's a new Guardian.  Do you assume for sure that he doesn't know? Because it matters if he reacted out of knowledge or out of ignorance. Out of ignorance.  - Out of ignorance. 
- Yes.  But if I were in his position at that time, I also would react... to go into the Holy Sepulcher... Would you react like that?  Okay, not that way... I might have stopped him at that moment inside the Holy Sepulchre.  If he wants to give an interview or anything he can outside the Temple, but inside the Holy Sepulcher...  If he said it outside, wouldn't you mind? That is what you mean? I wouldn't accept it in front of me.  No, if he was outside, in the yard or somewhere else. 
- Okay, I wouldn't react.  Did it bother you that this was said over the Holy Sepulcher?  Well yes, inside the Holy Sepulcher, there was also the Guardian in front of him at the time... in front of the camera also... Yes, but didn't he... support a truth? Didn't he tell the truth?  That's what we're trying to do, just don't go into details right now, we don't want to hurt the religious feeling of every person who comes from Greece, who has experiences that he's lived, he's done...  So you want to tell me: let the believer understand it either from the prayer's words, or with their logic...  Anyone can understand it with their logic, if they read the prayer...  If they read the prayer, but let's not tell him...  We don't need to go into details of exactly what is happening...  If any believer studies the Prayer of the Holy Fire, the entire Ceremony, they understands the religious part, they understand what exactly... We don't need to get into details of what exactly is happening and how it is happening.  A miracle, every person can see and feel it, it depends... - On a personal level.
- On a personal level. But we're talking about how it lights up. This phrase was removed [from the website of the Patriarchate]. There are two matters: How the holy oil lamp is lit and how it is sanctified. These are two different things. How it is sanctified, after the Divine Grace descends, is a miracle.  In this sense of miracle. 
- Agreed.  But how it lights up is not a miracle.  No, of course it's not a miracle.  So can't we say that?  Yes, we can, and many say so. And many have been spreading it freely, even for years. And I see that, and it's really impressive, that you, as a Sacristan, decided to say it, you say it. In a way, but you say it. Yes.  Do you think it is compatible with Christian truth ethics? That we can't lie?  We certainly can't lie.  Does this affect you, your refusal to lie?  For sure.  As a priest?  As a priest and high priest, of course, I cannot go out in public and lie about what exactly is happening, we have to believe the religious part.  As in the Liturgy, it doesn't happen suddenly or its own. We put wine and it turns into Blood. We put bread and it turns into Body. The same with consecration and unction. They don't happen on their own.  Do you believe that even though you enter, light the oil lamp, and leave, the Patriarch, every Patriarch, has taken his measures so that, one in a million, has a source of fire with him? I don't know...  In my opinion, he will definitely have something.  If something went wrong I don't know what he would do at that moment... In your estimation certainly. So that he can bring the Fire out to the congregation, right? For sure.  He can't play with odds.  Well, for sure.  I want you to tell me how you feel that you can, and have the courage and the bravery to tell the truth. Okay, we can't... it is known that every Christian understands exactly what is happening. We cannot say that we go to the Holy Sepulcher and perform a miracle, the respective patriarch goes and prays and lights the flame by itself. There are some things that do not stand up to logic.  The miracle that a person experiences in person... is different from how the whole Ceremony begins.  So, the consecration is a miracle, the lighting of the flame is a natural process.  So we distinguish them. So we distinguish them.  Have you discussed this matter with the current Patriarch? The process, the ritual and the oil lamp. No, never.  Not even when he was a Sacristan, for a while.  No.  It's just that as a Patriarch and as a Sacristan... the matter is very delicate, and anyone when they speak in public, they must be careful of what exactly they say and mention. Do you believe that someone speaking should say "I don't want to answer", should tell  the truth in a way to the believer can bear it, or lie? Which of the three? To tell the truth in a nice way for the believer to accept it. Not to be confrotentional.  A hierarch does it and I'm impressed that an archbishop, in front of dozens of people,  told them how the Fire lights, and a hundred people below, in the Sepulchre, were starring with awe and no one reacted. But he explained it theologically.  The opposite has also happened. 
- Meaning?  He was giving a tour to a group and was explaining to them, in front of the yard of the Holy Sepulchre, about the Holy Fire, and by chance a group of Old Calendarists passed by,  and they rushed to hit him. If I wasn't there to stop them, they would have beaten him. Who?  Theophanes, the despot, yes.  Did such a thing happen?  - To beat him? 
- Yes, they rushed, attacked him.  If I wasn't there at the moment, and other Fathers, they would have beaten him.  With such a hatred they rushed that he mentioned Holy Fire was not a miracle... if we weren't there, they would have beaten him. So you got in front of them? 
- Yes.  So this is also dangerous, right? 
- Yes.   You have... how to present this to a believer.  Someone is convinced of what exactly is happening and somebody goes to tell him that it is not exactly the way he thinks, and he can react... Yes but it isn't just "somebody" saying this, but the one knowing more than them.  You know more than anyone and I will tell you that you are wrong? It needs some audacity for me to tell you that... And yet it happens.  Where do you attribute that? To religious fanaticism? Mostly yes, and the ignorance of theology.  Yes, ignorance, but you tell them, you explain it...  It is hard, someone may not understand.  So do you consider this the right religiosity?  No. This is religious fanaticism. Fanaticism. 
- Yes.  This incident, that now I learn from you, did it affect you, scare you?  No, it did not scare me.  So there was use of force? Did they reach out to hit him? Yes, they rushed, and also cursed him a "traitor"... so many curses he heard that day.  But I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart that you spoken to me with theological words, you explained to me the "miracle of the Holy Fire". Why he call it "Ceremony of the Holy Fire" and not "miracle".  I want to thank you for explaining to me, additionally, what is the Cexactly, how the Fire lights and then that it is sanctified, with the Grace of the Holy Spirit and of course the praying words, which we shouldn't underestimate, right? And I wish all that to result to something, I will phrase it the way I think it, to relieve the Brotherhood a bit of all this weight that there's something to be hidden.  We do not hide anything.  You don't?  It's true that in our first communication, I pressed you a bit.  Yes, the first time.  It's true that you were pressed. I think that when you said it, I think I saw, I may be wrong, some emotion in your look, by saying this truth, or let me rephrase: you could not lie.  Okay, I cannot. 
- You cannot lie.  No, no.  This does you credit. Honestly credits you Your Excellency. And I hope and wish for the word "fear" to not exist inside you.  No. Not in any way. I'm glad.

Transcript for:Insights from the Holy Fire Ceremony

Transcript for:
Insights from the Holy Fire Ceremony