Transcript for:
Insights from Colonel John Alexander's Experience

hey everybody I just want to kick this introduction off and say thank you you have helped me develop what I consider my gift telling these stories bringing light to Darkness and um it's just been a real honor to be able to do it and um if it wasn't for your encouragement I wouldn't be here I wouldn't have the opportunity that I've been given and um I love you guys for that so thank you now to the episode this episode is a special forces officer he's retired Colonel Vietnam veteran and was on the Forefront of developing some Cutting Edge non-lethal weapons this is a mindbending episode it's fascinating I'll leave it at that ladies and gentlemen without further Ado please welcome Colonel John Alexander to the Shawn Ryan Show please head over to Apple and Spotify leave us a review type in just one word that really helps the show out like comment subscribe to the YouTube channel and that is all much love to you guys enjoy the show and just to read reiterate thank you there is nothing else in the world I would rather be doing than what I'm doing right now and that's because of you guys thank [Music] you Colonel John Alexander welcome to the show glad to be here I think it is an honor to have goes yeah it'll be good um we've been trying to reach you for probably at least a year and then finally got in contact for you with you and um we've had several phone conversations and I just want to say I'm really it's a honor to meet you and I'm happy that you're here sitting across for me and this has been this has been a dream interview for me so thank you well it's been I've watched all of your shows and certainly impressed with the caliber of folks that you've uh had on well I appreciate that very much we are very particular about who we bring on so thank you but um so John I would like to do a life story on you starting from childhood I can see the cringe Factor but I promise it won't be that painful but um but I would like to start with childhood get through your impeccable uh service is a army Special Forces and intelligence officer and uh then I would like to get into all of the things that you've explored um both while in Army intelligence and what you continue to do with Paranormal Activity um Shamanism UFO all that kind of stuff I mean you are you are one of the leading people in that space and so it's it's um it's something that I've been drinking from the fire hos on learning about and I'm I'm about as green as it gets but uh it's fascinating stuff and and I think it's very important so if you don't mind I'd like to give you an introduction here okay it's a pretty long one but um Colonel John Alexander your retired US Army Special Forces of 32 years commanded Army Special Forces teams at Vietnam and Southeast Asia Inspector General for Department of army chief of human technology at Army intelligence command manager of Technology integration at army materials command director of advanced concepts at army laboratory command well known for your leading role advocating the Army's development of non-lethal weapons and Military applications of the Paranormal he had a hand in setting up the Army's remote viewing program later known as the Stargate program featured prominently in both the movie and the book The Men Who Stare at Goats work directly for General stubblebine when the general resigned Army intelligence or excuse me redesigned Army intelligence back in the early 80s he worked with Bob Bigalow Aerospace billionaire in his investigations it's skim Walker Ranch and his other properties authored several books on the future of warfare UFO UAP activity and Paranormal Activity as it was studied by the United States Army your latest book reality denied which is right next to you there uh PhD in Behavioral Sciences you are considered a legend in the anomalous activity world and you have been to over 100 countries according to Joe uh researching Paranormal Activity throughout the world and um once again Fair statement an honor a real honor so I know you have a ton of knowledge that uh I want to tap into so thank you again and before we get started everybody gets a gift thank you any guesses not so far all right we open it up oh what do you got in there little something for the ride home gummy bears vigilance Elite gummy bears thank you those are legal in all 50 states but um but um so Colonel before we kick this off I have a I have a patreon subscription service and they they're our biggest supporters they're the reason I'm here and you're here and that we're able to do this and so I give them an opportunity to ask the guest a question this is from Steve Rubio did your time and experiences at Skinwalker Ranch confirm or disprove any assumptions or beliefs you had about reality spirituality Etc well are we limited to Skinwalker I mean that's one of the problem we did spend time I was with Bob the day he bought the ranch and actually was the first one to spend the night up there and the most anomalous thing that happened was a mosquito bike at that time having said that it's a very very strange place and we can go into you know some of the things that go on I know you had Brandon fugan as the owner and know him um did it confirm or deny I'll tell you the last paragraph of my UFO book ends I should say first paragraph is UFOs are real and it ends that says whatever this is it is more complex than you can possibly imagine and one of the takeaways from the ranch is something that I call precognitive sentient phenomena and the point there is that there's a it and I do not know how to describe an it but it is in control we never were in control and when I said precognitive I meant by that it seemed to know how we would respond before an event occurred and it's certainly sentient smart and certainly phenomenological uh and I know Brandon has picked up on the precognitive S and talks about it now and it's I don't think it's any single thing it is terribly terribly complex I gave you a specific example there's one where um uh Georgette was uh we had a DMV on staff but this is we're jumping to nids now National Institute for Discovery Science and uh Terry German who owned the ranch went out and it was caving season and he goes out by the way the it's the topography they've seen the TV series and that it's generally perfectly fat when the escarment to the north goes up onto the Mesa but the cing season he runs out and he finds a newborn calf and then they tag it and they wait a tag it to associate it with the mother waves it drives across by the way it's about 10:00 in the morning so bright sunny day clear visibility is the point and he finds another uh newborn tags it weighs it and he comes back the laps time we're talking about 45 minutes cap one's dead not only is it dead it's Evisu and sanguinated and there's some of the bones have been taken out and miss or missing and there's a Nick on one of the bones the ear one of the ears was sliced off looks like a laser cut I mean it was that s tag was gone so everybody says so pick a exanguination all the blood went into the ground um so I got a hold of George and I had them go to a slaughterhouse uh get some blood go to another place pour it on the ground and you come back weeks later you say you know blood was poured on the ground here so the idea that it went in the best guess from the science board was whatever happens by the way the thing was weighing 60 lb it's now between 20 and 30 lb is meaning lots and lots of physical material is gone from the calf you go where and consideration was probably happened someplace else and you go how could that have happened again this broad daylight we looked at all how Predators kill and none of them do anything like was described um You probably shoot rustlers not to mention this broad daylight and something so the point was it totally made no sense whatsoever you know in the logic as we know it and so the it again seemed to know what we would do you know once that happened and that's one and the the other issue was it kept morphing and particularly with cameras there are things that said would St it would know where we would place we had even then it was monitored 24/7 and would go through the thing and instead of here it just off camera or then there were incidents that happened that should have been on camera and nothing is there and um see we had cameras on poles that were staring to the West there's two cameras and another two cameras in front of it so the first two cameras are visible from the rear I'll give you an example uh the uh the cameras are around top of 20ft poles they come down got about half a roll of duct tape connecting them to there there's a PVC unit that takes it down into the ground and the wires go back to what's now called the command center was just a double wides at the time but everything's being going recorded point there is we know exactly when it stopped recording and what you find is that the wires are pulled out of this camera is 20 ft up not seen there there's about a 3ft chunk of the wire that's just missing been totally cut PVC has been pulled loose now coincidentally at the time it happened the cattle just happened to be around that part of the ranch that was there point there is anytime somebody would approach they' get spooked and would go running off no visibility of anything that happened uh you know there there all of this stuff happens camera the cameras in here do not see anything on it but all of these things physically happened should have been captured but weren't wow so it's in control what is there any other way to describe it would it would a would a nonhuman intelligence be a good description uh non-human intelligence normally is associated with kind of like an alien being or something not a supern normal force okay that has you know is controlling everything okay so it's certainly nonhuman and certainly intelligent but uh yeah most people think of it they tend to think of you know what's being discussed with aggression we have an alien body and they're nonhuman and maybe smarter than us and you know that but this is more in the controlling Force category that um bigger than anything we could even think of sorry bigger than anything we could even imagine yeah well that's what I said in the thing it says probably more complex than we can imagine do you think do you think we'll ever be able to grasp the magnitude of of and the complexity of of what that is what it is short answer would be no and again I gets to what you CU we can imagine a lot you can imagine all kinds of things in various venues and suspect that it's beyond our capability to imagine of course that's highly speculative but uh having studed this and not just a skinwalker but around the things we've seen around the world it gets and the word that comes to mind will probably discuss a number of times is ineffable because that pops up in the meaning it can't be described and in various phenomena that we can discuss that's one of the key words that come up that I just don't have words to describe it interesting I cannot wait to dive into this stuff but um but right now let's start with your life story where did you grow up I was born no technically I was born in Manhattan moved to New Jersey and by the time I don't remember any of that by the time I was two we moved to Lacrosse Wisconsin and basically grew up there okay hockey player that's sorry you hockey player no New York to Wisconsin no hockey no no hockey ever I wasn't very good at skating in fact I ankles and I tried es skating a few times but it's not one of my favorite sports what did you like to do as a kid uh well I was interested in weird stuff kind of all along do remember that what when you say you were into weird stuff as a as a young man and as a child can you be a little more specific well I was interested in space and space is a program we know it generally not a Hot Topic at the time but uh the potential for but basically from a physical perspective you know I mean the moon was a long ways off at that uh that time and uh yeah I was still already thinking as a young child man we can go there no kidding what what kind of what kind of space exploration had we accomplished none nothing oh remember we we don't have missiles at this this juncture yeah I mean it's much later before even the beginning of a missile program let alone one that is going to venture out there but there were I remember coler's magazine and so there were people were talking about you see pictures of but this was definitely Pie in the Sky types of things that you and what caught your interest in space I don't know just was just plain curiosity it was no particular in all of these things what I talk about I says there was no Epiphany on any of these it was it's more like steering a aircraft carrier big crew you know it's slow turns as opposed to you know turn on a dime or something yeah were you into Paranormal Activity not particularly at that juncture no what caught your interest in the military uh Special Forces now uh graduated high school I had a uh chance to go to college and uh went for a Year and that wasn't I went to boo college for year it wasn't terribly exciting uh had a scholarship but and I was reading these articles about Special Forces now at this time there was only the 77th which it was then become the seventh and 10th group I remember seeing some articles and said Bo that sounds interesting and uh so I went actually had not worn my mother um and they thought I was going to go back for the Southmore year and I came in one day say oh by the way tomorrow morning catching a bus and uh the uh turn turns out the recruiters had lied to me what a shock I suppose what a thought yeah no I went in and I said I want to join Special Forces and they said just sign up for airborne and uh I said well I what I'm interest after all all you have to do is sign a thing and you can get reassigned there I'm was dumb enough to believe them at the time not understanding the system so went off and uh did basic training and then went to the 101st Airborne which had just been reactivated wow after World War II uh it was deactivated and um then the 187 50 I think it was 508 503rd the two regimental combat teams came together and they were going to activate something called The pentomic Division and uh that was a totally New Concept at the time you also got to remember that nuclear weapons are just coming and we're talking 1956 so um yeah it was a totally different concept on how we were going to fight in the future and uh interesting shortly this the first or second but he recurs as general West Morland was the uh division uh commander and I ended up both things as a medic and know went through medic training was with 326 medical company which is still the medical company for the 101st but it also meant that our company Commander is a lieutenant colonel because all of the the doctors in the division are under him so that was kind of an unusual structure and um he liked to jump and he and that led to us getting into Ranger when I went to Ranger school in 58 um we had more Rangers in the medical company than any infantry company and but remember the theory for the Rangers at the time the Rangers had been totally deactivated as well and it was out of Korea and that was U uh partially because of casualty rates they felt were too high but they wanted to you know kind of spread the wealth across the company in addition uh the only way you're going to get promoted because after the war I mean promotion rates are you know tremendously slowing down and you but if you graduated from Rangers School you automatically made E5 so that's how I made E5 and then went when I came back they sent me to the 101st Airborne school as an instructor so I'm here I am what 20 years old as an instructor wearing the black hats and screaming at folks and all that when I first started this whole podcasting thing in online store was about as far from my mind as you can get and now most of you already know this but I'm selling vigilance Elite gummy bears online we actually have an entire merch collection that's coming soon and let me tell you it is so easy because I'm using a platform that is extremely userfriendly and that's Shopify Shopify is the global Commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business what I really like about Shopify is it prompts you all the things that you want to do with your web store like connect your social media accounts write blog posts just have a Blog in general Shopify actually prompts you to do this you want people to leave reviews under your items you can do that on Shopify it's very simple Shopify helps you turn browsers into buyers with the internet's best converting checkout 36% better on average compared to the other leading Commerce platforms Shopify is a global Force for millions of entrepreneurs in over 175 countries andow 10% of all eCommerce platforms here in the United States you can sign up right now for $1 a month it's shopify.com Shan that's all lowercase go to shopify.com Shan now to grow your business no matter what stage you're in that's shopify.com Shan did you enjoy that yeah it was interesting of course there was an interesting dynamic between us and the more seasoned instructors I mean we were really green yeah and actually got well the ground training NCO kind of interestes it was a guy by name of Henry slansky he's one we might want to discuss but he had a hangman's MOS and it actually been involved in hanging the Japanese war criminals and uh so we're talking about you know he was hanging Japanese war criminals he had yes wow and he had been assigned in Japan he had also become he had taken up Karate and became the commissioner for the Western Hemisphere for the Japanese karate his big deal was they had a two-day uh contest and he beat 119 Japanese to become the you know national champion and his fi you if you were alive pre World War II how old are you now if you don't mind me asking H I'm 86 86 my question is I had an interesting conversation yesterday and um we talked about the first time a Tic Tac appeared and it sounds like the first time that we identified a Tic Tac was when we tested the nuclear bomb Oh that's what 43 you do you remember that that was not a that be well no because it was totally secret and uh as we may get into Edward Teller was a personal friend and we actually discussed these things and uh as he pointed out he says you know millions of people didn't know and only this handful of people at Trinity site uh well at of course at Los Alamos building it most of the people involved didn't even know what they were doing they all had little compartmented pieces of the project and under Oppenheimer I'm sure people seen the movie on that now teller is is in it as well they they became know adversaries but uh did not get along see teller wanted to go straight to Fusion and the atomic bomb was fishing a fishing bomb and fusion jumped it up you an order order of magnitude uh so they um like I say okay basically hirosima till that went off almost nobody knew about it other than a few people in Northern New Mexico and that area because of the size of the blast at the time but this was not something it was carried in in the public until Hiroshima and Nagasaki what was the what was the response from regular American citizens when that bomb was dropped um until the followup probably not much again I have no idea what it is I mean do not have our understanding of nuclear energy at the time I mean it's not even a concept for 99% of the people um that it led quickly to the end of the war um interestingly my second career of course is Los Alamos and I was there at the 50th anniversary of when the bombb was going to be up and they happened to send me to Washington to study some of the documents that came out uh remember the casualties that have been taken the island hopping if you will pretty horrendous MH um and you know this in 3 days changed everything you know where they had capitulated what most don't know and I actually read the documents on this in the National Archives to invade hu proper called for nine atomic bombs in preparation and by the way the physical invasion was fully an order of magnitude more difficult than Normandy just over all of the logistics and the distances that would be involved and was going to be required to get there hence using of course the problem was didn't have them uh the other thing that came up quite a bit was um you know why didn't we do a demonstration the moral humanity and that was thought about and the real answer was they weren't sure it would go off and nothing could be worse than to have a demonstration Happ Point good point when did Vietnam come about where where were you and your army career well that's much later year I got out for a short period and um actually joined SF from the outside was a new unit was being formed and we had friends who you see Vietnam was going on for a while most people don't know we had Folks at dmbn Fu okay and so you know that was like that's the French war and uh all of that and then of course Kennedy coming along and deciding that we're going to interject with a few advisors mostly CIA initially and then SF started there and um yeah it one of the things that sort of evolved well the whole domino theory was critical at that time this was that if Vietnam fall s and you know Cambodia and Thailand and all that the Communists are going to roll up southeast Asia and so that was kind of the rationale for getting involved at the level that we did okay what was what was your opinion of the war I know it was a very unpopular war did it start that way what point did it did it start as an unpopular war no no not at all well it started very lowkey and nobody knew about it and uh I I will say my opinion changed over time specifically when I got there I kind of con considered myself a mercenary if you will because I mean this is you where you get promotions so uh and I had been in Thailand before that it to uh Vietnam uh well this gets into messy stuff um yeah I was convinced that if we switch sides we could have wiped that out in 90 days because the other side wanted to win ours really ours being uh you know the Vietnamese per se we're not that interested um my counterpart was definitely a crook um now when I get to Vietnam and we're talking all of 68 had a a team on the Cambodian Border in the Seven Mountains area so we were a big a team we had about it varied from 15 to 18 people but many of them were not or a few of them at least were not SF per se but I had six companies sorry where did the guys that were not SF come from we had a flashy unit which literally a uh FL uh search light unit okay that would uh because from looking out across we were just short of the Cambodian border but all rice patties there but in the mountains looking out and you could put IR infrared beams out there and watch at night and exactly why they were there I have no idea but organizationally I had six companies of IND well there 800 people that I was paying and uh another uh 400 that were opcon so I was at a unit of you know 1200 or old holy cow and uh so yeah because the American Military thought we were Squad leaders you know because we had you know only people on on the team but had you know pretty big units also one of the problems was that I had a Vietnamese counterpart was a major terribly corrupt and they were selling um if you had a sge card the CG card then you couldn't be drafted into the Vietnamese Army so they would sell these and so these were ghosts uh basically and would show up for pay is the only time you actually saw them having said that we had companies that actually were there on a day-to-day basis and uh so so would you say that the Vietnamese people were very unmotivated well it depends now ethnically the way one of the things I also want to say about Vietnam is there's thousands and thousands of different stor because where you were and when you were there changed dramatically okay my ad the adversaries in my area were um you know Viet Kong which is very different from the folks fighting in the north who are fighting NVA and that changes uh over time uh we yeah well my very first operation that I remember kind of got my attention it was a small hill out uh to the north of us and ethnically I had three companies that were predominantly Vietnamese and three companies were cambodians we had were KKK literally C kaium where and that was the majority in the area was ethnically Cambodian so we went out and I went with the a company that was going you know to the East in this way and we were supposed to do kind of a simple pincer Mission it was a a walk in the Sun but the group I was with got there first and says okay now we we we we have going to Ambush the Vietnamese and going oh [ __ ] that's my own company and they want to you know shoot each other up so that was kind of a wakeup call very quickly interesting what what kind of mission were you guys doing what kind of mission well it that's a very interesting question I never thought of it in that way um obviously we were controlling an area um the people don't realize there are actually mountains in the Delta and there were three major ones in my area uh neam neai and nuoto to the first new Coto was Infamous um and when I took over the camp we had a uh company stationed on the top of each of neom and Nei now the reality was we owned the bottom we own the top and they own the middle in between um that uh it it was so well defined that you could go off and you say if I walk on this Patty and say if I step over here I'm going to get shot at you could call artillery from memory cuz you know exactly where it was when it was going to start and and you also had the hoian trail ended just to the West I mean you could literally see it come down they knew the biggest thing we had was a for dece Mortar and uh out of Chang which was a Vietnamese base Arvin and they had two 155s there but calling fire from them which we did on occasion was quite intricate and what was interesting is when you went out flying there was a path maybe 50 m beyond the uh range of our for de I mean you could they knew exactly how far we could shoot and you just you know beaten path coming down into the mountains cuz they particularly down in new Coto was uh very much BC strong hole and of course you want to get into the infamous chat I mean that was off yeah let's do it let's get into it well my experience with ch one of the big issues to be talked about I think is intelligence because my experience was Intelligence went one way up you know never got anything and so this was a uh a te a u truce was called and up until that time the trues had always been observed they'd done it before when you fly Recon missions after that you'd see a whole lot of lights that uh you you don't see you know during the fighting areas where we would bomb and so I as we had admin work to do literally doing paperwork so I flew back to Kanto which was the uh company headquarters and uh went in and was getting ready actually they sidelight but uh they sunk a sand pan in in the river off of uh Kanto and they I was a diver and they wanted somebody to go dive on it we were getting ready to do that because they thought it was it was carrying arms and got too late in day we'll go tomorrow went back in and um back to the camp and we were hot buking you so went to bed and I remember the S2 coming and said well there's some strange units in the here it was not a tonight's the night watch out you know any kind of serious warning went to bed and woke up and there's green tracers going by the window you go oh [ __ ] that means they're in here yeah you know they use green tracers ours were all all red so it was a no good very bad night uh basically we didn't do anything what had happened was uh Special Forces one of the first teams in the area on the air Strip by Kanto and so things had moved out from there so we were actually damn near in the center surrounded by American units unfortunately uh three young troops who were out on the perimeter had gone to sleep and uh got their throat slit uh cuz they were all asleep and what happened was there was a lieutenant who was going out to you know check the guard and damned if he doesn't run into them on the air strip and calls in and then so the fight starts from there and it uh a lot of their folks got dead that night I mean they were able to bring in reinforcement my point was we had no idea it was coming and I'm listening on the radio as you know all over the country you know town after town and the cities and capitals are falling and you're going my thought quite frankly was this is Korea all over again China has entered the war you know how could we see that big uh you know Invasion uh that had no preparation for now it turns out and I didn't learn until I think it was a 60 Minute special or something that came up that Saigon knew and there were American units that had been alerted we had no idea it was coming in everything in the whole District was lost um at that time uh I had a a B team at Chow duck and uh this is where Drew dicks actually got a medal of honor because there were people that were downtown big deal there where we had nurses downtown well the B Team Commander would not allow anybody to leave the compound well Drew was working with Phoenix and he says screw you I don't I work for the agency and he went out and that's a whole story worth uh uh learning and um but they went out and found the nurses downtown saved them and brought them back but everything except the compound was under and the same thing was true kind of across the area in our area now the Delta there the problem was they had been ordered to attack and didn't want to but you know hoi men was calling a thing they had no plan for Success so after a while okay we got this now what do we do and went back into the mountains and back across the border into Cambodia kind of went down and what one of the things I had done though is watching this I called and I said said let's pull one of the companies off of neom NE we definitely needed to keep but that's just to get more troops down because obviously the fighting was going to be down uh in the high level not in the mountains which is where we normally you know had operation I have that you found a landmine trip wire through a gut feeling in Vietnam can you tell us about that well that particular one we were just out walking and got into a uh in an area this wind this is the mountains at the foot not foot hills it's just starting to rise up but uh kind of jungle area and um yeah I was uh we were just wandering around and started backing up and the tend go mean mean mean and looked down and across the back of my heel I had already started to pull the trip wire and obviously it didn't go off so yeah that sort of stuff happened uh we hit mines a number of times um how much time did you spend over there well I was there a full year kind of unusual most commanders stayed in for 6 months at a time and I had come from commanding another a team uh in uh Thailand what were you doing in Thailand well we were training the ties and it was kind of interesting we went over as Delta company the first this was organized at uh what was then Fort BR and it was it's quote the original good deal you know everybody was signing up and going over what I never knew until just a few years ago is this was actually considered a strategic move that they were literally worried about losing Vietnam and the stuff would go into Thailand no they the they had the CT which were communist terrorists uh and you know kind of small action but this was gearing up to uh you know literally be the next barrier in case Vietnam fell uh we of course didn't know that we were on training missions I opened several camps uh one was nonou when we went in it was an area not much bigger where we're sitting here little hold in the jungle and uh uh year later when we left there was an air strip and you f but we would bring we were working with the Royal Thai Special Forces and bringing in recruit companies and training them they had a few that they did send to Vietnam but most of this was geared to fight in Thailand and then we had gone to uban udorn sondon and then down kooy down in the South we we had teams scattered all over TI they were doing the same thing going back to Vietnam You' spent an entire year there Y and that Vietnam was I mean the Carnage and the death and the loss of life that that you must have seen there was it a daily occurrence actually no no no there were periods I mean they were Peak periods um our fighting was more kind of on the M well skip the whole that you asked about missions one of the things that would happen is that we would on periodically get air assets and they would normally send uh like four slicks four snakes and four uh o6 observation helicopters and so what would happen is they would send them in and we take a pair of snakes and a pair of cobras uh and a pair of loaches and I would go with the loaches and we would literally go out hunting and go out cuz we could this is extend the area that we could get to know we had foot patrols that were going out all the time but uh as again because we were you know the last area particularly to the West uh Charlie you know stayed out there and had what I didn't find out this was one of the intelligence issues uh had a friend that we can talk about an incident he was then Phantom 2 and it turns out they had a lot more intelligence about where these units were uh than we knew were a lot bigger units than I ever imagined in my area but what we would do is go out there's something called the tram forest and this is uh out there miles and miles of it but it's the forest that grows through the water and uh everybody said was impossible to live that that was not true what they would do is go out and build you know areas out there where they could put in platforms and literally get up above the water and uh put then so we would go out hunting until you found find the units cuz they would move about then we'd call the guns in and then if a unit it was there somebody could hold then we would call the Slicks I had a you know the for slicks weeding back at the base and you'd call them in to uh support we'd do ground sweep on the area usually the guns would pretty much clean things out what are slicks are the yeah hu okay yeah but and they had you know the two door Gunners but this was very different in fact people remember the old Bodel gunships which again were Huey these were so underpowered that we go when you go back to Chiang and rearm and they'd come in there you had to literally run alongside while was trying to get off and just as it lift it off then you jump into the helicopter and grab the gun my gosh yeah the people don't real like I say it was really quite different at the time very interesting you had a incident where an o6 alpha was shot down uhhuh can you talk about that please it was no good very bad day yeah though we were out screwing around again doing these kind of search missions I was looking for uh something and um I was uh flying as the Observer and looking down in the water and found some platforms that were had some uh Munitions piled up on it said okay BC's got to be here and so I pop smoke what we going to do just blow it up from the air I pop smoke and throw it you know onto the thing and uh then I see this little brown Trail so oh somebody's just running through the water and all of a sudden it's likey just comes right across us now we're flying not much higher than the ceiling here we're literally at almost Treetop level and um yeah one lucky your unlucky shot depending on your point of view I guess is uh they cut the cut the gas line and so my gu screaming you know that we're taking fire the coincident news that probably saved our ass was we were just changing over on station so we happened to have two new loaches coming in and two more guns so we had four cobras and po anyway so we uh were screaming and saying we're taking fire and went up and I still remember the screen you know all the lights flashing and all that went out and we hit the trees and my point where is we went from about 50 to zero instantaneously MH and I was not wearing a chicken plate and so I had a little bit of slack I will say you know the thing caught but uh that was uh not good and uh the fortunate thing is a wingman slipped in and when we could move it took a while to get to where we couldn't I'd lost my gun I mean it went oh man right past there and picture up me by the way compliment to the builders I mean it crashed really well I mean the whole thing is disintegrated got pictures here they picked it up and the struts were off and the canopy in front of us was just totally destroyed and uh was able to get over and grab the struts and get lifted out and then back to the hospital in Kanto eventually and yeah say sometimes the bear gets you yeah that's that's uh but it turns out what I didn't know at that time is we had gone down inside a VC Battalion and damned if they didn't come after us even with the guns on station because there was a a premium on America you know captured Americans and we did have one Nick R uh whole no the story but he had been C he was in our area he was captur 62 but um uh yeah they were willing to you know risk the fires and they you know snakes were pretty good between many guns and missiles they could really rig Havoc but they were willing to risk that to come and get us and fortunately didn't but wow did you ever Deploy on missions as individ uals versus teams did you go out in smaller groups as an individual versus a team no no no no you never did that uh no there was no place where you would go uh you would almost any place you tried to do that you'd be seriously outnumbered okay yeah okay what was it like what was it like coming home from Vietnam if remember Landing in the SeaTac but um there were no TI tap parades or anything like that that's for sure saw more of it after uh when I was uh with the 25th Infantry Division um you know where you ran into the students I remember walking along with I had a a u license plate front license plate was in Hawaii and it happiness is a Green Beret with Snoopy you know kind of cute some guy looking at me and goes okay got got the messag yeah yeah what kind of stuff did you face personally after War what was the effect after I mean after after a solid year of combat in Vietnam killing seeing your friends die I mean how did that affect you coming home I'm not sure where you're going with that one of the things that I have talked about is an area that's not talked about because we were you know ostensibly fully integrated and functional and no over PTSD but one of the things I talk about is uh the dreams stuff comes back and can last for unfortunately likely to happen again because of this because I've compartmented that you know far enough away and I recently not a year ago I was met with a friend up in um Ceder City Utah and he was interested and kept pressing what about this and and I wrote him back and said gee thanks you know this these things do re-trigger them and unfortunately it's never in my experience it was never like it really was and usually it gets a lot worse in some ways and yeah you got but uh you you don't hear folks talking about that yeah and and like I say we're the ones who relatively fully integrated [Music] and well I won't make you revisit it I will not make you revisit that we'll move on well the point is that just these kinds of discussions are the kinds that uh you know CU I really thought that stuff was you know behind me and that and you find you know it's yeah yeah yeah they can recur pretty significant I know you went back to war when Afghanistan happened after after 9911 before we get to Afghanistan what were you doing in between Vietnam and your Afghanistan well yeah well various jobs it was with um see one of the unusual things we probably hit is technically I was an infantry officer for the people who don't know the 18 or the Special Forces was not a branch we were like a little skill identifier initially an S and then a three that got added to your MOS this wasn't your primary function so technically I was an infant officer who spent two official tours ever in the Infantry in the entire time um and so came back and went to uh 25th um and uh what was interesting there one of they written to this is something that people don't realize at all you know the infantry divisions up with if you're going to deploy you send the Infantry Division say the fighters they're going to go in and and take over well at the end of Vietnam all of a sudden we have all of these folks coming out and you know refugees going to various Islands so are you familiar with discom I'm not okay discom is the um they're all uh support units if if you will all that and so normally your support comes behind the fighters we ended up with a support or discom going out first you know taking you hospitals and things like that that would have been in to support the Infantry but nobody ever prepared for the idea that we're going to send the support units not in a combat Mission but in this case just to receive refugees that were coming out by the thousands I mean I think everybody knows how the collapse uh you know happened and so we ended up sending units to Guam but it it was a very different exercise and nobody had ever contemplated that that would and by that time I was on the division staff so you know preparing for that was really quite unique and I don't know if anybody's even ever written to you know what that was like would you like to go into that I'm sorry would you like to go into that well there's not much to go into other than to say because again in the division staff we were geared up to send the 25th Infantry Division the wolf hounds and you know gilis and all of them out first uh and U we also found out that uh a lot of people from the support staff had signed agreements not thinking they'd ever be mobilized but had to sign if you were married had to sign agreements you had somebody to take care of kids and all of that that became a huge issue uh finding people who say well wait I can't deploy I've got and did not have the backup system um I suspect that's happened more in units you know more recently where you find no basically everybody is Deployable and you you got to contemplate that and it's nice to have dual incomes when everything's cool and you know just trips and that it's very different when you say you know oh Mommy's going to be gone for a year yeah yeah one thing that I didn't ask you about that I would like to know is what was it like for you when the war was done did did you feel like we abandoned our counterparts no um again my take on it had been all along that um yeah it was kind of unsustainable to to begin with and again my experience with the Vietnamese ones I dealt with well my counterpart had tried to have me killed four times that I know of how so and in fact when one of the things we didn't discuss was um one of the things I had done when I got there we estimated that probably 10% I me these CG were VC inside the camp uh and I had heard of attacks that had taken place where Americans uh and this had happen in other camps so I created a special Squad we called it and gave them M16 I remember the main weapon that said yeah we're talking ill carbin and one of the problems they don't have a lot of stopping power take down power and all that so I was able to get uh enough M16s and organized a special unit and when we went out you'd always have two Americans or so go on every operation and so I would send uh some of these guys and their job was not to fight it was to protect the Americans and potentially from our folks so I mean we knew there was an Insider problem there's no doubt about that and one of the biggies we didn't hit that was most unfortunate um I said we had this major ball who just a mega Crook and Captain that was under him who was about to take over the camp and the way they Camp were had the main Camp I said we had had the things on top of the mountain we had an area called batuk which was an old French triangular Fort there was a few clicks out but within mortar range so we could support them and uh one night uh they got hit really bad and um yeah this was one we put spooky actually into the camp but uh we're the next morning we had called in Mike forest and extra units so we were going to go out in force um and there's this rumbling going on and my interpreter comes and says John was VC what do you mean it turns out that this Vietnamese Captain had gone over the VC and what had happened is he had brought in eight recruits that day and the the regular VC were training on the hill and they had a battalion ready to go so Battalion hit this small thing is supported by a company half of them outside uh bottom line is we lost everybody that night 100% Kia and what oh uh he had brought the recruits in when the attack came and everybody went the way this was set up you had little compartments but you couldn't see from one to the other and again this is the old French Fort uh they went behind and shot everybody and because we got there and the only thing there's no damage nothing blown in the wall the the wire fence coming in had just been moved aside that's where they left but uh you know those were the kind of conditions and uh yeah you had gone I understand you know I had actually sent a message out and said look I'll meet you and talk you something what the [ __ ] yeah because this guy he and I had gone out on operation could have turned me over and all that so I don't think it was a long term but had convinced them you know enough to go over and turn and wipe out his own people and so when you say did we desert I can definitely understand your perspective yeah it was really I I say the ones high level ones I knew were corrupt and like out to get me I knew that cuz we were we were very successful in these raids that we would go out and hit a number of times and picking up Supply Doms there's there's photos of that around and capturing weapons and all of that but um yeah you go for what you know yeah yeah well what did you do when you got back home what did you get into went to the next assignment what was the next assignment uh well like I say I went uh don't think 69 was at Fort Hood uh became a battalion 3 S3 operations officer when did you start to get into Army intelligence that comes along later um there several steps in between uh but I ended up getting selected to go to uh well this is like and By 1979 I got selected to go to Commander general staff college at Fort lenworth which was not terribly stressful and um so I wrote an article it was called the new metal Battlefield and this talked about remote viewing and psychokinesis and it a lot of it had come out of what the Soviets were doing and um I was uh after the I wrote that at the school then was assigned as a department of army Inspector General and uh so I get there and there several and coincidence or synchronicity just keeps recurring through this when I wrote the article frankly I didn't think it would get published but was an area of interest and I I had been looking at the Soviet stuff and by the you'll catch me because I interject Soviet and Russian all but this was Soviet era the bad old days and um so I submitted the article to uh military review their inip would have it that the editor of military review at that time had had a near-death experience so this thing of being out of body and that was so instead of just an article that he chooses to print it became the front the cover cover article and it went out now at this time I didn't know about Joe and uh you know they actually had a remote viewing it was a thing that said we probably ought to be doing this stuff and um the something in the iron curon you know we knew that the Soviets were you know heavily doing this uh so it was just uh Jay isn't that interesting in my view that's what it was well um there was a mck CER in uh Washington called Jack Anderson I know if you remember him or not he was a uh well I don't know who you'd equate him to today but he was one of the top uh journalists that would come up with you know unusual things and and you look at the bad government look what they're doing and catch it so he writes an article uh called the uh Voodoo Warriors of the Pentagon talking about us and basically got it wrong well this raised hell see nothing had happened when the article first broke but now it's in the Washington Post and a bunch of other JN uh you know newspapers around the world the voodoo Warriors are you know wasting your money well so I'm sitting at my desk uh in the bowels and there literally are bowels in in the Pentagon and this guy comes roaring in and he was from the assistant chief of staff of uh intelligence and he goes did you write this letter or this article yeah well don't you know the procedure for getting it cleared yeah and I just happened to have have the paperwork with me I don't know why but it was there and he was screaming and going like wait minut is this your office he goes oh oh so it it had been cleared fast forward years later I'm doing a session at inscom and uh talking about somebody saying this guy raises his hand he says did you write an article in the military review it says would you like to meet the guy who cleared it apparently got his ass handed to him so um and was what it happened there was a whole things that bunch of things that intertwined but we're in about 80 8182 um send Deputy the wife of a retired Colonel is the friend of a wife of of death um and she runs a workshop and you know conferences on weird stuff and by now I'm talking openly about what the Soviets are doing and whatnot still didn't know about the program so um General still well he's he's retired so he's back as a civilian I think he's deputy secretary of defense maybe you under secretary or but you know the number two guy on the Pentagon okay so through the wives they got a call and they asked me to come up and brief him on this stuff now Lieutenant Colonels which I was at the time do not go into the Secretariat without a flag officer as as a head bobber well that didn't happen and so we went up and had a very nice she says well who do you work for and I explained where I was and uh she okay so I went back to my desk that was interesting and about this was around 1:00 that I came back and about 4:20 that afternoon our chief of staff comes in says tomorrow morning you don't work here anymore this guy had reached down and moved me just had no idea the impact it would have and that's I went under Thurman initially who was then the Des per Personnel he was a three star at that time and then the stuff we were doing was getting darker and so that's when I moved over to inscom under stubblebine I would like to rewind for just a minute okay so let's go back to you wrote the article about remote viewing out of body experiences that got published what is it that led you to write that article because that sounds like a very important turning point in your career I no say no by this time I had been interested in phenomena in various sort and one of the biggies was uh in quote the Bermuda Triangle and there was an area out there had dived on what we think is pre- cataclysmic civilizations and so I had personal interest and when I was in Hawaii had done a number of talks and met with people and I was getting more actively involved uh some of things you go back even further yeah in Thailand uh had gone out and met with you know their version of Psychics also in Vietnam inside physically inside my Camp was a Buddhist Monastery my main interpreter had been a Buddhist monk for uh six years and so these are areas where we were you know talking on you know kind of extensively so this these kinds of things had led up to I say writing the the article is is there anything specific that was a profound experience no nothing no say no Epiphany it was just kind of generic more and more and more the synchronicities keep happening being in the right place at the right time and hearing about stories now by well huge things had happened by the time I was at uh I think a sequence 80 so I was had become interested in near-death experience expences trying to think of the the sequence on this I was getting I I had done the Masters and I was getting ready I was doing working on a doctorate degree at the time I was getting ready to grind out a uh dissertation because that's what you got to do and this was one of these there a kind of a huge shift in thought here but it it's coincidental cuz I was uh back at uh now in Atlanta Fort mcferson and I went to a lecture by Elizabeth kuer Ross which was kind of interesting and from that I went to a life death and transition Workshop that that she was doing and that was unique I was on just on leave military hadn't sent me there but about um half of the people who attended were uh medical of some kind nurses doctors Etc interested in what she's talking about and quarter of people were like me just kind of generically interested the other quarter were dying so I mean you talk about an emotionally charged experience that was at my roommate uh at uh where we were staying there I the midline groma but he had literally his face was being eaten off and you know and going to be terminal and knew and a lot of the people were like that so that was really powerful so I came back and I was at know mcferson and I just sent Elizabeth a letter and said Gee that was really powerful thank you BL um so I'm I'm in the office a few about a couple of months later the phone rings and it's Elizabeth secretary and she says now I'm getting ready to go to do physically do the dissertation and she says look Elizabeth is going to be in Atlanta tomorrow uh can you meet her she's got a few hours between flights this was in the days where we could you know go out to the gate and all that said well yeah I sure so um anyway she flies in and I meet her and she says you know I probably know a thousand people in Atlanta and I chose you to call and I have no idea why I said I think I'm supposed to ask you a question would you do the committee she was oh yes so like I said you cannot program those kinds of things the rest sort of his history but it that was a piece because see she and Raymond Moody who had was the one who kind of wrote Life After Life and was talking about near-death experiences and then in the meantime yeah well when I'm an IG I had met we were doing teaching courses at Commander general staff College and I was introduced to a guy oh this gets into the really weird stuff but this was one of the most impactful near-death cases CU it goes back to Vietnam and what had happened um Jim they were flying on cobras you know how you how the Cobra lined up you front front seat and the back seat he's front seat and they're out alone and normally you fly you know snakes went in pears you didn't fly alone well they were flying alone and went out over this forested area and all of a sudden the 51 opens up on them uh hits thing and breaks his leg even the check it there and uh cuts the controls between the front seat and the back seat and there's nothing in the area there's a tiny area but it's not big enough to auto rotate into so what they do is he says he pulls the nose up now Jim says he pulls the nose up now the point here is we know the controls have been shot away between the front seat and the back seat but he still brought the plane up and the reason was to come in boom first you know this was not going to be good but it you know it was to absorb the shock and amate the shock as you're coming down the other important aspect is you don't know the orientation of the helicopter because the Blade's turning until after it's beaten itself to death on the ground so it does that and Jim says the thing start literally his face is burned off the vi you know the area had caught fire very bad they so not only broken leg face is burned so they hit and next thing he knows he's out of his body up above and he can see the orientation of the helicopter this is what gets critical and he can see that the we lined up off the nose about a click and a half out in front is a friendly fire support base jungle all all around them other than that but you have to have had had the position from above to look down to see the orientation so the back seat is out he's running away the the things canopies went this way and he looks back and about that time Jim looks up oh in the meantime he's out of his body he sees that and there's a hooded figure describes his male and not sure why and he says what are you doing here he says well I'm trying to help them not I'm in trouble or something he said I'm trying to help them and he says but don't you know he says no what you're not dead yet and with that he lifts up back seat is running away and sees Jim move so he runs back and grabs M says I thought you were dead you haven't moved you know since we were hit a lot of other stuff happened but they get into an argument about there's a fire support base and the Pilot's saying it's off this direction and Jim is saying no it's off this direction and pain is Now setting in and not in a position to argue and so he hides behind some higher big ant hills that that are in the area and about this time VC's coming in uh coming after them and so the guy goes off in this direction Jim hdes he'd actually decided to commit suicide uh if he was captured cuz he knew wounded prisoners were not going to be treated well but they miss him friendly base uh comes in sends people out they saw the crash and they send somebody out so now they come in with a jungle penetrator and this is with the only case that I've had in this so he's lifted up so he's now physically replicating his out of the body position and he can see the orientation of the helicopter relative position to the fire support pace and say this guy's lost and was able to before he passes out say by the way the pilot went out over here go and they went out and found him whoa wow but like I say it's the only case I have where you have you know from an out of- body perspective and then physically replicate it and find out now it's accurate have you ever heard of that since then or is this is the only time say I I know well later uh again I guess when I was an IG no it was after I joined inscom that I became the president of the International Association for near death studies so Heard lots and lots of cases and we can get into some of those uh but there are people who have had things that you know have been authenticated that they saw but never one where they physically get taken up and see it becomes life saving wow I could see how that would uh capture your interest to write at that article yeah so fat moving forward again you write the article General removes you from the unit and puts you in inscom what does inscom stand for oh intelligence and security command what was your position at inscom well they we called it U what the chief of human technology created the position people used to ask what I do and I say I'm a freelance Colonel chief of human technology that sounds fascinating yeah well we were looking at and this is where we get into other aspects uh you talked to Joe the remote viewing programs going stubble buy is very interested uh funding is an issue that's pretty significant here because it was a time when you had a fair amount of uh of funding that you know could be used it's still true to some area but discretional funding if and Bert was uh interested and uh there's a important figure name of Jack hul who comes into this and Jack is uh at uh McDonald Douglas at the time um and he had watched yie Geller and had come up with the quote spoon ding process that that is now popular and so uh some friends he he used to come to Washington because he was also a c uh did contract work for CIA and uh so he was back and forth in Washington so we heard about this and he was just starting he's got to be 82 just starting the spoon bending thing and what he had found is that this was a teachable skill and he had based it on the stuff that Giller was doing um but he was having parties and would invite groups of people in and and we heard about that we had one so that's kind of I told sub about it and he said U well let's see if we can do that so I got a hold of Jack and invited him to I was then in a apartment highrise in Washington Northern Virginia area and we have p party so we're sitting kind of on the floor you look around in more or less a semicircle and there were some significant people there if people look know the history Andrea poar was there I if you know him but this goes back into World War I you know where he was interested had worked with the agency and I mean these are he Heavy Hitters in the S phenomenon in R&D area and uh so Bert sitting there much like we are now and I had there was a medium who was there another one of the key people had been Rick over's technical uh director and who knew the medium and brought her but anyway and the way it works is you go through an hour or so and some of the stuff's physical so it's hard to say whether that has any significance but the graduates session you end up holding two forks like this that are matched and no physical force and so she's sitting directly across from Bert and her thing goes no way with no physical Force that's we got oh [ __ ] you saw this this was real yeah here's the situation you've got China Russia Ukraine the border the banks seem to be collapsing plus the Chinese just negotiated with Iran Saudi Arabia and Brazil to drop the US dollar and most Americans including myself feel that we're in a recession right now but despite all the evidence I can't tell you what's going to happen for sure nobody can yet when it comes to your money you should understand what's at stake that's why I partnered with goldco to possibly help at times like this go to shaikes gold.com or call 855 936 gold to get your free gold and silver kit the kit shows you how to defend your money with precious metals and how listeners of the show could get up to $10,000 in bonus silver go to shaikes gold.com or call tax attorney or financial professional before making an investment Decision One in five Americans have learn a new language on their bucket list if that's you make 2024 the year you finally check it off the list with Babel be a better you in 2024 with Babel the science-backed language learning app that actually works don't pay hundreds of dollars for private tutors or waste hours on apps that don't really help you speak the language babbles quick 10-minute lessons are handcrafted by over 200 language experts to help you start speaking a new language in as little as 3 weeks Babel is designed by real people for real conversations Babel's courses are fast convenient and are great for my busy schedule Babel Has over 16 million subscriptions sold plus all of Babel's 14 award-winning language courses are backed by their 20-day money back guarantee here's a special for a limited time deal our listeners right now get 50% off a one-time payment for a lifetime Babel subscription but only for our listeners at babel.com SRS get 50% off at babel.com SRS spelled Babel babbel.com SRS rules and restrictions May apply visit babel.com for terms and details oh I I've had later experiences but and learned how to teach it and ran these things for a while but it was this thing you know like I say in front of the commander just drops a a full 90° with no physical Force said need to look at this so started doing serious studies and doing and then see we had uh would have lovein uh he had 06 commands around the world and so every quarter the commanders would come in and discuss what he going to do what's going forward what's happening literally in the world at the time remember this is the bad old days we're still talking Soviet Union and so he was very interested in me so I ended up running sessions for them uh which was not always appreciated by the folks who was interested but the point because I say a question is what are you going to do Ben's tank barrels and you okay no computers computers are just Emer can move thing about moving electrons and the key issue there is I don't have to destroy I just have to make computers unreliable a lot of stuff there but anyway the Big lesson uh that Bert wanted to get in really didn't have to to do with the psychokinesis it had to do with don't eliminate things just because you don't understand it see we had been blindsided by the Soviets several times sputnick for instance was one there were several others uh Joe did he talk about the uh submarine yes he did I mean that was one that was oh wow um and the point was we had all the information and our boat builder said don't believe it uh you know we we never heard if it would go to depth uh anything that big would crush etc etc and we haven't we didn't have any word at the time a radic radically different uh Soviet subsystem and as you know from the thing came out and he had laid out you know the tubes are forward of the sail and and that sort of thing so our point was that had happened to us on several occasions and when you looked back you found out you had the information but it had been disregarded so the idea to these Colonels was don't just disregard something because you don't do it because you've now had personal experience with things that happened that you didn't think could happen and U so that that was one of the emphasis that uh what was that what was that like for you to be in that room when that spoon hit 90 I mean what was that was an no [ __ ] moment that was a yeah cuz I had seen a little bit of bending before but nothing that dramatic now I've seen even more dramatic since um there was one of these were lovein we were doing at zero Center uh there one where I can send you the I have the forks but same thing we're in a a semicircle and I'm doing it and there's grumbling I mean face there were people who didn't like this stuff going on and this it happened to be a lieutenant colonel who was liaison from Europe who was in the session and holds it up and same thing the thing drops a full 90° and they scream and going but I did not see that but I have a GSA 18 the science advisor behind does and so we're looking and there was the guy next to him that yelled and this thing just fell over but then with everybody watching it came back up went down came about halfway back up and stopped I mean literally wav now that's an N of one I've only seen that happen one time but it was really significant had some other pretty good bending that happened that night but absolutely no physical force and this thing moving you know and now I said I have them the reason he put that down and he said I wish that hadn't happened scared normally we let people take the stuff home with them and it scared him so badly that he just left it and I I still have those uh forks I understand he went back to Europe uh he was American but you know layes on there and did it once more and just said enough don't want to do that again scared him but fortunately at the time the initial incident we had our shrink with us we had to put him back together before we sent him home because it was that big a deal yeah wow what um you know I have a a a hand full of things that you guys were studying it seems I have a handful of things that you guys were studying at inscom and okay and uh one of them is the Hutchinson Effect can you describe the Hutchinson Effect not effectively John Hutchinson there's a a video I I know have the tape of it what had happened was George Hathaway who's a dou E from U uh Toronto and another guy came in and they had a movie of these events happening and the problem is not a single thing uh stuff would levitate I mean heavy items would levitate uh things would disintegrate there was one voto they had two pieces of wood with a rat tail file in between it and it's just being exposed to this field effect and you see the thing look like a filament on a light you know back in the old filament days there and you see it light up burn and drop it literally burns into two more exciting they pick it up after and it's cold and you know again these are things that can't and any number of effects John Hutcherson is Alive and Well now in California on the subatomic level I feel that there is a a dimension shift activated by very conventional electrostatics RF fields that I use and Tesla waves that I use that actually form a keyway that opens up another area of time and space that may activate the 0 point energy fields and Interventional reactions let's say to gravitational waves and time waves or Cronin if you wish perhaps we're dealing in Cronos and gravitons which are maybe particles at that time he was in Vancouver and I put him under contract to May to replicate and the big problem like with many of these phenomena control still doesn't have it lots of strange things happen but you can't control the event uh they had others with PVC uh exposed and the PVC disinte parts of it disintegrate he had a uh a drive sha by the way the guy was a popper I mean had no money no F but he was interested in Te Tesla so what he would do is he would look at pictures of nicolea Tesla and his and try to figure out what they were doing the only saving grace he had all this crap that was in there it was just and fortunately aaway went in and actually kept records of what this was but still couldn't control but you had metal again it's just exposed to a field that would twist and burn and you know some stuff would be affected others wouldn't and it could just totally to this day pretty much uncontrolled though he's doing it um this is one I'll digress but I think ought to be in there we now have the Army has something called the future command that is looking at the you know what's the war going to look at be very different and I got in touch with them I actually sent a letter to the Commanding General and me we did number of these things I think somebody ought to take a look I had no thinking that the fourstar general would get it but I thought it would go to the staff or something I have not even heard a peep out I tried some yeah we don't understand this stuff but you know here are the roads we've been down you know wouldn't somebody be willing to take a look abject silence yeah with Hutcherson well what happened was we I had provided him with enough funding to move this thing well the problem was he was living in uh uh housing complex in uh uh Vancouver and he would do this stuff and what he would do is by the way what how he found it is kind of interesting he he what he wanted to do is to make sparks he literally had vandag graph generators and things like that because he like to sit there and and Sparks the way he found it threw something in and this thing came flying out and he picks it up and throws it back in and it comes flying out you're go like what's this well the real problem was that he was working in the basement of an area we think that the piping was probably part of it but he was screwing up everybody's TV in the area so they did not like that so made him move I remember you know it's not cable TV like you think of today this was the stuff went through the air at the time so I um I got a hold of a guy and he and George were working with him and we said okay we're going to pay you to replicate this event okay so they they have a they're in a warehouse that's totally empty and you can get all the way around it um and I what I did is I gave them a bunch of metal what I I had various metal samples and had cut them in half I was operating out of Fort bour at the time so half of the metal is in a safe at belore and the other half uh that I sent to them um so we agree to have Show and Tell and uh I have a team of scientists two of them from Los Alamos and uh promise not to denigrate anybody but um anyway I had four others including myself so we go to so I arrive a day early just want to make sure things are working and they're really excited hey we had this thing levitating and so all we did was turn it off leave everything setting the idea was tomorrow we'll turn it back on and everything's right in place even it's unusual it'll happen um they come in uh we turn it on and damn if the power supply doesn't catch fire and burn up on the spot and it turns out there was no so we spent the rest of the day they were trying to find another power supply to it the bottom line is nothing happened during them now in the meantime Jack H again had given me some malibal rods and the point was that mbum was it was treated differently and had never had success with anybody trying to bend it and I had given them rods they had some parallel on damn if they didn't give me one back with an ES curve in it how that happened don't know interestingly one of the questions was were we looking at psychokinetic effects because I had asked John are you part of the system and he would say yes I get excited and it bends but when I asked George about it he says no it Bend or whatever happens happen and then he gets excited uh so whether this is a micro PK event or whatnot don't know but there was certainly a series of very unusual things that were happening and still happen uh after well since nothing happened uh in our experiments we went back and damned if one of the two guys from Los Alamos didn't write this really nasty I don't know if you know uh Tom Bearden or not but he had a whole thing about how Tom had slipped into the country and done this and it was just terribly convoluted I mean all he had to say was we came we saw nothing happen and thing instead it's this very nasty gram and you know so he we couldn't go forward but Jack uh did get funding and do it but similar sorts of thing the stuff would happen just outside the camera range and that but it's like almost like the ranch strange things happen and you really can't explain it what year is what year is this well mine is uh going to be 82 maybe 83 um I'm still in touch with them though that's that's why I know he's got a lab in uh Northern California but has a lot of health problems but is still continuing and get you know news come in and wow and this wonderful but nobody has been able to you know establish the parameters and have it on a replicable basis how long so you get moved into inscom and how long was it before you started seeing metal bending levitation um D particle what do you D the exact time but is this all happening at once i' have to go back and look because it depends on when Jack it was all predicated on Jack coming to town and I say doing the first one and then the one that I uh or or set up with the sub bind and an Gaiman is the one who had the thing drop on us it's about the same time because I'm still uh working with ions totally civilian this near death studies CU remember driving up there stuff being bent in fact the next one we actually had was the ions board going wow so I gu see the problem is these things keep getting intertwined it's not all sequential and that yeah what what um I have a couple other questions what is primary perception well not a simple one um primary perception has to do with the guy by name of cleave Baxter now Baxter's also fundamentally involved in that because hell put off and them knew about him and so he's one that kind of got remote viewing going this was before Joe and and that um that's a name that uh cleave gave to the effect now Cave's history there during World War II he' been in Counter Intelligence in the Army went to CIA when it was formed and was the guy who D the polygraph system that's still used so he's teaching uh pography and because of that he's got you know scientific equipment so the initial question was he he was living in New York at the time he had large plants there and he said I wonder if when I pour water into here how long does it take to get to the leaves simple straightforward question you know that so he hooks up his uh polygraph with it uh like a GSR the Gonic skin response thing that measures moisture right so he puts it on on the leaf pours the water in watches it but he leaves the thing hooked up and the way this is going through so it's going out to the polygraph so he's keeping track of you know when when the moisture changes and that over time just hooked up in his apartment he was a bachelor and and he notices this thing's wiggling from time to time what what is it that's causing I'm not pouring water in there and so he he came to understand ing that it reacted the plant was reacting to the physical emotions of things around it at the time and where the experiments got really interesting was um well he he started with went over and burned the leaf and you get a response from the graph well that's weird says then it got to the point where he would think about burning the leaf and the plants responding and you're going this is in the primary what is it that this guy is thinking about doing harm to a plant and it is physically responding in a way that can be monitored uh Step Beyond that was we went in to monitoring oral lucaites white cells from the mouth and he was able to do um uh would take take a a person's sample put it inside a faraday cage it's running through you have electrodes in it that running back through the polygraph that's being recorded they need film it and then the individual would be exposed sometimes what they do is have them send them home and say watch certain TV programs because you know that certain emotional events are going to happen but you don't know when so by recording them together you're able to see that the leaves are responding to the emotional event that the person is observing at another location oh it gets better believe me it is it in the same room no how does it know how do because the white cells are the connection the person's white cells are being monitored even though they not where we were interested uh the Joko with General doer that case where was kidnapped well that was one of our interests how is is there a way that you can monitor people at a distance if you had the say the cells on and simple things like alive or dead you know that would tell you you know what kind of rescue operations you might want along uh so it gets interesting so one of the things I did was again I had cleave under contract and I replicate the system at Fort belor was really interesting I we went out there do it he was completely cooperative and showed us how to do it so I had a uh senior scientist from the night vision lab go with me and to watch it cuz he's going to build the system for me and U so I I said uh okay here's here's all the material how it goes and he goes but there's a piece missing I said well the peace missing is what I'll take care of and In fairness he said look I have chosen this much of the universe for me you can move things about in there but don't tell me I have to relearn physics because I don't want to hear it in fairness he replicated it and I was replicating what Phil was doing or what cave was doing uh back at Fort bour so one of the time I went out to U uh he was in San Diego area so I um um out there so we set up a three screen so I'm the one who donates the cells they've got me on the polygraph and on the video camera and I let them screw around and get things that would be emotional s i could beat the polygraph but not the white cells I mean white cells said there's an emotional contact and the polygraph is no deception indic ated wow now if you wanted the real wow comes later um so 87 time frame General Thurman who's then the vice uh gets the National Academy of Science or national research Council and he knows that the Army has been looking at a lot of weird stuff and so he asks them to do a study of all of the unusual things we had doing and I appeared before him several times and initial is you got the wrong group nice folks all that but there was only one person who knew anything about sici phenomena and he was from uh a founding member of the skeptic Society I mean he was we could ask about him that's r we can discuss him later but so I got the wrong folks so we've told them about the various things that we're doing and um so they're going to have a meeting at scripts which happens to be in San Diego said hey this is a good place we can do a show and tell you know we will take them to Cave's lab by this time cleave is is out in the San Diego area a running his polygraph school there and he's on the sixth floor of a a building when I draw it I usually if you're looking from the top down One Wing is the classroom where these things are going the other actually where he lives and has all of this equipment going on so same thing when you're doing a thing for the Academy yeah you don't want to know it worked yesterday you want to know things are working today so I had arrived early and the group is coming and um so they agreed to would take two it well what happens is I donate cells and we set it up and you know it's so it's monitoring me and then so they come and two of them go to the lab and everybody else goes into the classroom where cleave is going to give a description now cleave was one of those people where you asking what time it is and you get the history of chronometers so what happens is I'm in there watching say oh God you know he just you C you got to get going you know you're losing these folks because he's going to give kind of the history and I'm going to say by the way I've independently replicated this at Fort belor so what happens is finally he gets off and he gets my turn so I I stand up to talk and I'm basically got to hurry it up in about 90 seconds his lab assistant comes running in and says what happened 90 seconds ago I so that's when I started talking he says well this machine just went wild I can show you these tapes I got something it is now just going on well I can tell you that telling the National Academy of Science the UN is not built the way they think it is can be emotionally stimulating cuz that's what I was telling them you know and um so what happened is and you see throughout the time that I'm talking until until they run in and they rip it off um yeah it just went wild and I am considerable distance from my we had forgotten that they were running cuz they were going to set up to do somebody else so let me let me let me make sure I'm understanding understanding this correctly so you have a polygraph machine hooked up to your cells to your white cells right you have nothing hooked up to you no when you get an emotional response but I am understand I am a considerable distance away there's a number of brick walls between me and that thing yes so your emotional response is going is communicating with the white blood cells in a in a completely separate room through brick walls in the poph machine is measuring the emotional response yeah and it went wild this is why you told me not to be messing around with photons and electrons the other day on the phone isn't it well uh there is no rational explanation for why we had I had done it at 50 miles or so it was from belore to um uh Arlington Hall if at that time inscom was at Arlington Hall station and I had the lab set up down at Fort belor so I am going to see stubblebine and I know I'm going to tell him no to something he does not want to hear and sure enough you know allow now this isn't one where you have the instantaneous you know absolute control but I drive up there and you definitely see a response to my cells you know 50 mi from 50 miles yep 50 miles yeah but see when when CLE kep primary perception we don't think distance should make any difference so it's not physical difference it's you know what is the connection in this case we do know that's between the cells that are being monitored and they're responding to the emotional state of the donor I'm I'm is this like particle entanglement what is what is this could be what with bell serum you spin one way and and distance should not make a difference what's the far you guys tested this well that was uh probably that uh 50 yeah from from belore to Arlington and again that's not nearly as exact the the real exact one again was when we were in the building mhm and again straight line distance you had yeah two brick walls and several internal walls between us and the the equipment What did the what did The Spectators think about that the report came out and there was no word whatsoever mentioning it nothing yeah it was just totally ignored what what what are your thoughts about the plants at the time responding to human emotion not a word what was you what was what did did you think oh well that's what got us interested and then you know from Beyond that's interesting but what can you do with this do you think it means humans can communicate with plant life oh absolutely there's no doubt about that and Chris bird wrote books I mean there's several books written on that and the same the plants commun or respond to music and and things of that nature um yeah but we thought the again the more interesting aspect was not just the plants well we're getting some very fundamental issues but the whole deal of the role of Consciousness uh and that everything really is interconnected and uh in ways that we couldn't possibly imagine wow what let's keep going down some of these some of these um different things that you guys studied what is neurolinguistic programming o um interestingly the NLP or neural linguistic program was the one thing that this panel said probably had some application um they said none of the other stuff had any practical application well they they believed NLP because the amount of research it went to it's now okay this was invented by John grinder and U Richard bandler uh a little publicity but there's a new movie out called Altered States by Richard bandler which addresses all of these and yeah I'm in it with some others who did have practical application it is the that there is a physical response that's stored uh in the body and you may have heard of things like anchoring or Imaging mirroring and things how do you increase compatibility between one person has very practical applications now the issue when when it was formed what they did is they looked at Fritz pearls Virginia AER and one the Ericson and the question was why is it that these people have very rapid success in treating individuals and people who take their techniques and you know continue on you know the effects kind of dissipate and um so they had come up with kind of a basically a it was a critical path model of saying these three people were the the primary on that you were doing certain things that others people don't follow up on exactly enough now we so many application one of them was that again the bad old days we had things called LTS or legal Travelers and this is when you're getting into the spy routine and they were interested so you since somebody comes out from the Soviet Union um they can it's known that they're coming out and they're going back this what illegal Travelers going back and forth so you want to know the KGB C them and turned them so you've got to be able to reestablish Rapport very quickly and they were using these techniques uh for that uh and of course ended doing polygraph and all of the other things on it but that was one of the you know practical applications um I had Richard bandler under contract I'm convinced he was the real brain John grinder and another guy you may know called Tony Robbins and um these guys were under contract to us so our practical application uh we did something something called project Jedi one of this is multi- agency that was running and uh one of the things all agencies had together with they shot things and the other is that it's highly quantifiable you hit the target you didn't hit the target there's no I feel better I didn't now remember that when NLP was formed it was formed to fix broken people I help in therapeutic modalities our question was we got really good people how do we make them better and so kind of a different application to it so in Jedi what we did is we said okay we we went out to the world could have got anybody said who's the best pistol Shooters in the world and the answer came back you ought to be looking at the Army Marksmanship unit so uh we brought in the Army Champion the inter service champion and their boss and worked with them and fairness Tony was one of the ones working with us but we went through the whole model of how do you shoot and all also key was what do you think about shooting and for them shooting is a good thing you can protect your life you can make a living off of it and all of this physically we would have them them shoot and you could get them way the hell off balance and they would hit the target pretty well uh but there was vast difference in their technique uh when they came in one of them they came in he opened the box put it on put on his glasses did a whole bunch of if you interrupted him took his hat off put the glasses you went back to the another one to go yeah okay and he go back to shooting so obious viously all this other stuff is not critical um but we developed what we call basically the critical path model what is it that makes a good shooter and then we took two groups of people there were split kind of paired sample they were all military many of them had never shot a 45 before and the other thing about 45 is people would say you know it's terrible weapon you do better throwing it shooting it and so we took a grp we designed a process using NLP and then we took one group that we trained one group that the Army Marksmanship unit trained using their procedure our problem became that everybody had qualified using the NLP technique Within the first day by noon the next day everybody was shooting expert I mean there was no place to go the Army Marksmanship unit went their 4 and 1 half day course and shot so we've got an obvious advantage in ammunition and those sorts of things right off the bat the other thing that we did do though is we took a lot of it was visualization well I'll give you one of the the big Aha and credit Tony for coming up with this it was called the success cycle the point here was normally when you shoot you put the thing out 25 M whatever it is and shoot until you hit the target and then keep going we didn't do that the targets started at Point Blank Range and you could not miss that's why we call it the success model you could not fail and then kept moving it back until you were doing it so you learned success from the beginning and that was really critical and like I say within day and a half we got everybody at at the uh expert level on it and um it was unfortunate we had started into another project uh right after that besides shaoting one of the questions that came up again were in the batt old days and were the Soviets are still there and they had an issue with NSA and listening see what what they would do remember there's a fist you know they're using Morse code and sending things and yeah everything is encrypted but there was a lot of background chatter before they would start sending the message you know I are you with and they got to learn people what they call fifs the problem was that were there two one the Soviets were much faster than our people they're going to 60 words a minute and ours are kind of maxing at 2025 the big problem was we sent people to school and by the time you know they would go to school for a long time go on leave report to the things unit they have to be retrained the skills were not training the big aha was we were asking the wrong questions the selection criteria was who are smart people that's good who can type that's probably pretty good the critical question what kind of stereo equipment do you have the point is what you were looking for and they didn't know it were audio files people that hear differently that was a critical component to it as opposed to can you type and are you smart what do you mean people that what do you mean people that hear differently well the reason people are audio files and I've got one I mean you see the extent of his equipment it just blows me away I mean being deaf I just can't hear very much anyway but these people were you know had very finely attuned hearing and were investing in that in the kinds of equipment that they would buy just on their own so that was the critical question as now you could have we did not go we ended up uh getting it's about the time that Bert got terminated we had to end end the studies but um yeah it was just things you these were kind of out of the blue sort of things that you would not have anticipated but you could learn again you like the basic thing is a critical path model in knowing what you're looking for it has tremendous applic now what do some of the things I saw Richard do and again I'm still in contact and uh what not with him um we had a guy who was working with us who was CIA U his name is Andre he was the only guy who got captured in Lebanon that we got back alive and of course after that he you know couldn't go back undercover and that because he'd been captured so what happened he says well the Cavalry came over the hill at at just the last second cuz they were about to to do him in but the point there is this is really a strong emotional event and we were able to go back and recreate history as if that event never happened now these are fairly sophisticated techniques and that but you're literally changing the history and got him to where he could pass a polygraph as if he had never been kidnapped no kidding so like I say it's um very significant the applications uh that were there are they still studying these they the government whatever PR not as far as I know and as I said I know Richard I talked to him a few months ago and he was in Vegas and uh now they do teach uh commercial courses that that are available uh now this is one of the problem this is why I mentioned before Futures command trying to explain to them you know what we did where to go were you successful there were failures too of course but you know trying to get them to not have to relearn history but we have a propensity for Reinventing wheels on a continuous basis there's a story about a turtle okay can you tell us that oh no no that's that's a little different um the turtle was a um name and you the guy who fills a slot behind you and it comes up behind you and uh that was one where um U the guy who had taken my position as an S1 in Hawaii and I bumped into him years later and he had been assigned to the military personnel Center Now understand from the time I went to cgsc until I retired I was never assigned by the system it was always one General to another and you know then he would tell him you know fix it and I happened to bump into him and uh I knew he was at mil peran and he says you know say I I had to keep your file in my drawer for no because nobody knew what to do with it no place to put it wow so how long how long were you at inscom not sure two or three years two or three years what happened is stubblebine was forced into retirement and they knew I couldn't stay there because the guy coming in U Ed soyer had taken his place who was not of all things he was an artillery officer not even an intelligence officer but the big system uh was not happy and the program had morphed and now gone to DIA and um yeah they knew that I would not survive in that environment so this is when I went to with the same thing it was a personal handoff we went and found there was a three star at U the Army material command who was amable to these sorts of things and so I went to uh work uh for them so most the say you got to really had a day job and that was definitely true when I got to AMC and all the UFO stuff and that uh During the period at inscom was when I had a lot more flexibility but did the other things most of the time had you know an assignment you could fall back on yeah more than a cover story but you actually did that job okay what were you also studying Out of Body Experience when you were at encom well yeah the I actually I'm familiar with sensory deprivation uh I actually had a sensory deprivation tank uh that uh because when you get into near death experiences and remember this where all these things Time Flame blend back and feather so you have civilian and Military applications concurrently in in many areas um yeah in in indes near that experience uh autoscopic what they call seeing your body from being outside is one of the critical things and then one of the issues that uh had come up with remote viewing is you know where's Consciousness and there are some studies um what's the guy's name it was a guy at mames had had done some studies and they were wondering uh whether or not is consciousness as we know it is here or is it physically at the location and is that a requirement Alex Tannis is the guy name and the experiments there were they had him you know CU he said I'm going out of my body and what they did is they put a at a a different location inside the same building they had a Target but the target was generated in such a way they had like wheels and things that would show up the only way you could see the proper one is the physically or your point of origin was at one location otherwise the other things wouldn't line up uh correctly they also put in strain gauges to sense is there something of something there can argue what that something is but it talks to the potential for a physical interaction as opposed to just pure Consciousness or pure thought and they were able to prove pretty conclusively that um you know at the time that he would report being out of body that they were sensing something at the point and then he could accurately most of the time report not is not 100% and that's one of the problems a lot of these things are never 100% sort of thing but in order to see the representation and report on it correctly the the point of origin had to be had a this known location which suggested that yeah was a out of body and again you know this is something that's reported quite frequently as part of near experience but not necessarily all of them um you had a a recent guest and don't want to put him on the spot or speak for him but Ryan hendrian Hendrickson who has an experience and I've talked to him since I found it absolutely fascinating I recommend it to everybody a very inspirational uh kind of event but um steps on a IED in Afghanistan literally blows his Lego but what interested me in the words that I heard there is he's talking about the uh Life review about being able to see this thing and I've been able to talk to I won't go into it because he can discuss it if you wants but it was very much um his perception was a little different from most of them but it was you know that he understood not only the event but how that event impacted others from an emotional stand standpoint and that is also one of the common features of many near-death experien I'll tell you that there's never anything that's absolute 100 % I mean many of these things have infinite variations but um yeah the question was uh I hope Joe mentioned some cuz he talks about some of the things that happened to him and that uh being one of the questions that's come up is can you sense out of body or a Consciousness being there and there's a whole field on how do you do psychic protection to protect the individual protect yourself if you're doing those sorts of things have you come up with any conclusions none of these have conclusions yeah no uh now what we do and one of the big issues that come up on skin walker you probably heard about the hitchhiker effect of where things have followed uh some of these people and what uh what I did last time I was at the ranch uh do certain protections uh Native American smudging uh for instance as example I've talked to colum kellerer who's uh was one of the key people particularly in the oap program and he was at nids we were there at at the same time and spent a lot of time at the ranch and say they would go through kind of protective measurements and this is in the if you believe category but um can't hurt yeah what I I have a question at your time at inscom you're studying all these things out of Body Experience remote viewing primary perception the Hutchinson Effect neural linguistic programming how are you recruiting your subjects these people that that that have these abilities that can that can bend metal that can remote you how how are you finding them yeah that's hey there weren't them we didn't actually do recruiting now I mean with clave the subjects basically were me you know I would it's like we get into nonlethal weapons and anything like that I do these things I've been shot by all the systems and when we're doing it uh I go out and do these things um the same with Hutcherson yeah I was the one directly involved in getting them bringing in other scientist but basically as observers to authenticate that you know what we were getting was real um the one where we did the pistol shooting that I mentioned and project Jedi uh not sure how but when we were able to get maybe 30 people I'm not sure exactly how we did that you remember we're talking almost 40 years ago in some case it is 40 um the the reason I'm asking is because if we could put it something out right now saying hey we want people we want people to email in to this email uh if you have an ability that you can bend metal I don't know the percentage I would assume that 99% of the people that email in are completely full of [ __ ] and so that's kind of that's kind of what how did you sift through and find these what you're arguing to here or discussing is the difference between the Soviet approach and our approach and that was one of the key people things that uh you know the question was do I take intelligence people and teach them to be psychics uh or have those capabilities or do I take psychics and teach them the additional skills the Soviet approach was to go out with a broad net and look for people with the skills and then bring them in ours was I think much more constrained and if you look at the people who were brought into the program um a lot of them didn't know they had these capabilities interesting and one of the things that in the program you mentioned Stargate cuz that's the best known it had a number of names before that but they were doing personality tests specifically to address your question where do you look you know do you find people and they did find mbti was something we used Myers Briggs type indicator was one of several ones that what is that what is that well it is the it's a a very well-known uh psychological instrument that has the 16 categories of you know I'm an INTP okay uh but looking for when they tested the people who had these capabilities and now there's another question that has come up and that is is it better to find a natural or can you train the capability and that's where the guy who interiew yesterday Joe mcmonagle is quote a natural and he was remote viewer 001 and I'm sure described all that uh we found other people well there did he get into ingos Swan because what happened was one of the three people that SRI used initially was an artist in New York Engles Swan and he came up with his context of the matric so the critical question is is this a trainable skill and now there are people out there now in the world teaching remote viewing and there are people who do it naturally and I would argue that it's like all skills uh everybody has some skill at of but you know I'm never going to run a 4minute mile you know you know that so there are you know can I get better yeah and that's true with most people uh do people have psychic experiences in it absolutely do they recognize them maybe maybe not there a lot of people who will deny it but you know when you get into it know the thing of the phone ringing knowing who it is that was before we had caller ID but there were things like that that uh made sense um so I don't want to take anybody's living away but it's uh you know can you improve yes are you going to be a Joe mcmonagle yeah probably not uh depending on where you are and so having natural skills we saw by the way one of the things that came up in near-death experience initially we thought you had a discreet event that happened in a very short period of time and and that was a precipitating event that might have happened accident illness whatever what we found over time is many of these people increased in psychic capability we had a lot of them who became uh particularly psychokinetic I couldn't wear sensitive electronic equipment or being around that uh became telepathic became precognitive and that seemed to increase after nde so you know these events are happening out there yeah can you enhance it yes can we program it uh are there potential dangers yeah there there are and that's a piece that nobody wants to talk about that uh you know uh I don't know if you use this but my digression he'll talk because he's dead uh was uh subb who after retirement and we were we stayed friends for a long time and uh he went off the cliff and one of the dangers we've seen when I had put together the UFO group one of the things we agreed to do was to watch each other specifically because we had some people literally go crazy and say you know if you see somebody going off the cliff you can you'll say you're going off the cliff doesn't mean you pull them back or stop them but we agreed that we would watch each other and if you see the symptoms do it and there were several that um yeah just there no other word for it but uh wow yeah what so a lot of all of this has to do with human consciousness with what all of this has to do with human consciousness obviously the stuff with the plant really gets me the plant M do plants have Consciousness yes well let me drop back even further than that and this is the fundamental issue I familiar with Max plank German physicist and that and use his quote approximation is that Consciousness is fundamental you cannot get behind Consciousness and the implication here is that the physical arises from the Consciousness as opposed to Consciousness arising from the physical IE being something is generated in the brain and we're into deep philosophical kinds of things but that's pretty pretty profound yes because everybody has thought you know I think therefore I am no you am therefore you think uh is kind of more appropriate but it gets into yeah just everything everything is uh interrelated and level that's almost definitely impossible for humans to contemplate it's that big I don't know whether to have this conversation right now or wait till the end cuz I know we have so much more to cover but okay well do you think we can move it besides they can cut and splice yeah where do you think Consciousness exists oh Consciousness is we exist because of Consciousness not the other way around is conscious see if there's a big bang I happen to have some problems with that but it says that Consciousness created that and everything the physical Universe evolved from Consciousness we had spoken on the phone a little bit about some of the intelligence failures that that you're aware of and uh I would like you to expound on that a little bit uh here on the show well there there various ones there are certain ones we can go into Vietnam but um the one I was explaining that let I was uh invited to a classified conference down at mcdill on future technology and we listen to oh we're going to do this we're going to do that and so finally I'm sitting there and said has anybody heard of Purple Rain which is not the name of the program but uh I got this Blank Stare and whatnot I said well your future technology we deployed 30 years ago you know where is the institutional memory so uh Pete Schumacher was then the sink we still had sinks of Socom and I wrote him a letter and said you know here's the example but some somebody needs some oversight here we need a gry beards panel of people who remember some of these things because across the board in soft units they operate in small you small groups information goes around they're very Innovative so some a lot of these things work but if you're going to get this out there has to be some way to you know make the information more available and the result was that he said set up a a panel like I described with people from various elements of the soft thing that could come in and look at these various Technologies and that went we did that for several years what kind of Technologies well uh like I say this was one yeah it's been uncovered now um specifically they were looking at ammunition that would explode okay and uh the new idea was that we would insert information uh or ammunition into enemy stockpiles and we actually did that uh in Vietnam we had you know the 762 their calibers of stuff for their AKs and others and you would take uh in this case an entire clip and one or two rounds would be so he could fire it and then it would you know blow up on them and the idea was not just blowing up individual weapons it was obviously uh making them question the reliability of the system so you're attacking something much bigger than just blowing up a single weapon but that was a specific example and we used to do that um I carried certain round clips with me that when we found a cache would leave some behind and then I had to report uh you know by the grid coordinates as to where that went in interesting and again nobody when you when you ask the these a young bright Innovative folks thought it was probably a neat idea but also thought they thought of it that was happening all the way back then I did not know that well and my concern is that those sorts of things still are because like I say information does not get spread it gets spread you know Word of Mouth people who were from the you know a oh we did this and but we have a propensity for Reinventing Wheels M I'm 100% I'm sure that's in TTP too uh what works what doesn't work yeah and unfortunately that often produces casualties and you're finding out better ways to things so you're saying there needs to be it's it's funny to say this cuz I know everybody thinks that this exists but you're talking about a centralized location where lessons learned new tactics future Technologies is all centralized and then disseminated into there are historical units but they tend to capture the big picture sorts of things and this is one that would never have come up unless they thought it was a technology to be developed and then spread out um you know on a teams and I'm sure on the SEAL Teams the way the old guys try to teach the new ones and that one of the big things that I think changed between my era in Vietnam and uh Iraq and Afghanistan is we deployed as individuals most of the time now I went as Delta company of the first and we went into Thailand but that's cuz we were creating the unit uh there later became 46 company but in Vietnam we rotate as individual so you didn't have the traditional camaraderie that you have where a whole unit sticks together and moves and has common experiences you had people who were constantly rotating uh in and out had to make up the team and you know as you know these teams work closely and it relies on you know personal experience and who you think's reliable and who not mhm very true very true you know that's something that we we ran into a lot of problems uh that could have been solved if there would have been a centralized location for stuff like that where that was disseminated because you have stuff that's you have lessons learned a new new new new new tactics new whatever you know within just your team your your platoon and then you have Team wide which is you know a handful of platoon then you have your coast of SEAL Teams then you have soft in general you know Special Operations Forces in general of all the different units and and and yeah there is some stuff that gets disseminated out to each team but I mean even even lessons like like I personality dependent you got the right people at the right place and interacting like an example that's that you know that we had was I mean Iraq in 2005 were using green tip in armor piercing rounds against people that don't wear armor and it takes a lot more bullets to put somebody down with armor piercing rounds when they don't have armor than it does to use something like a 77 grain 5.56 round you know something with a lot with a lot more weight and uh not as much velocity behind it but but we had to find out the hard way uh unfortunately and and you know and that's 2005 that's 4 years after the war started you would think that that would have been disseminated long before that and so um I'm just a 100% in agreement with you there well one of the things that we found was uh again things you ought to know but I'll give you a specific case the sergeant Logan he was down on new Coto that I mentioned before and they were doing a sweep and uh called back we were the closest camp and gave me locate his location with a makeshift code I think it was big nuts Joe or or something like that and he goes in well we expand I looked I just looked at it no no I know where you are I mean I didn't you know deed anything to break it just looking at not even knowing which one he was using uh somebody else was listening that night and they did not make the morning U one of the tough things is there was a sergeant Logan and um uh years later I was at Fort Hood and I forget how it was but ended up having to go visit his mother and U you know that's tough yeah yeah yeah well we had another one that uh again this isn't using the same things and uh assuming everything's going to be okay I mentioned that we had a company on top of new uh new ji and at the bottom and that um every month you would they would go up and stay up a month and and the word of course would get out when we were going to do that um and um there's one where well three guys got hit uh they there was a changeover point where the ones would come down they would meet and go but they always use the same place and um Turned out it was mine there was a guy by name of Larry Schmidt uh lost his well there were three guys Schmidt is the one who took a CBU right next to his leg absolutely shredded him um and we went in well all three of the Americans that were up there were hit unfortunately one of them thought we would leave him and threw a smoke grenade which was tall grass and set the fire set it on fire and fortunately there had been a huey uh that was at Chow duck and they came down and picked me up and me we went in and repelled in not knowing we were repelling into a Minefield U oh man but uh yeah I had to pick uh uh he eventually lost his leg it also turns out that they had more than just the mines I didn't learn until a number of years later that we were taken direct fire from a uh recoiless rifle that they had in there and actually didn't realize what it hit the helicopter when I had put Schmid on there and that they were able to get down but it was unserviceable by the time it was oh man but that was the failure of doing the same thing and thinking we did this it'll be okay you know you can keep doing these things without you know somebody else learning the other like I said with Logan uh our assumption you could talk on the radio well we had people who could speak English pretty well that were just listening I'm sure you run into that I had mentioned earlier our problem we had a fair number of folks we knew that were not loyal to to us at the time too they said probably 10% of the that's a lot y it only takes one it only takes one but um well John You' mentioned that there are there are possible dangers to out of- Body Experience uh what what would those dangers be well again you're in a highly you know theoretical area and the question is you know can you be identified being out there there is a um an issue of once you're out of your body can you get back the cute story I tell about um you know Bob Monroe people would come to him and say you know can you guarantee you can take you out of the money out of my body and he says yeah he said oh oh good says you understand it's permanent so uh but you know can you get lost out there like you know probably not but there are people who are concerned about those things and um uh it's certainly an area that we don't understand that's an interesting point has there been a report or do you know anybody that had troubles finding their way back people have had trouble I can't know if anybody's got lost we haven't heard from them guess not you you have heard from people that got lost well yeah well lost uh or had trouble kind of wondering about you know can they get back vast majority said I was there and most of them actually say they were in immediate proximity to the physical but there are others who literally Go off into the stars and U really come back yeah could could you share with us an example of that not one specific but I've certainly heard stories you talk they talk about being out of their body and usually going up through the ceiling or through the roof and outside and then getting you know just like in the movies and it gets farther and farther away and but then you Al also usually transition to a different kind of scenario as to it's not so much a where but what's going on and all of that I've actually heard about I've heard people do this while under psychedelics multiple times um do you consider a psychedelic out of body experience and a near-death Out of Body Experience the same thing well the short answer would be don't know and you'd have to know the specific now one of the key things about ndes normally is it's like a critical emotional response and when I was president of ions we would get letters and say Al say well I wasn't dead but and they would describe these experience and the caveat is but it was like yesterday so the difference I think is in how they're remembered because uh many of these psychic experience you go well yeah was kind of weird not but like dreams it kind of dissipates over time for most near-death experience doesn't dissipate it's just like you know people would write it was yesterday and just screaming yesterday Vietnam was yesterday so there are events that are implanted more strongly than others what about you'd also mentioned something about possible d ERS when remote viewing into into different dimensions into what into different dimensions yeah well again we're in a highly the uh theoretical areas and don't know I mean we're I was going to say we're at the front end the reality is some of this has been going on for centuries just under other names we didn't call it remote viewing per se but we've had psychics that have done things you know again throughout uh human history uh that they would do um you know interventions and things out there um in general I would say the dangers seem to be more in the psychological Arena folks coming back who trying to integrate highly unusual experiences and not understanding how that fits into everyday life I would say that for instance with NE experience most people who have them rarely talk about them for years takes them a while to integrate the reality as as they know it and inculate that into their lives um I saw things recently said yeah 3 to four years is kind of an average time for people to come forward and say we have uh now it is changing and that's mostly because Society has changed quite a bit uh when we first had ions I mean there were no TV programs that discussed this uh and when they did it was um was the one with Larry Hegman with Genie you know I a genie and and things like that which is very different from no this is a real experience or something that happened to me and um yeah found that the idea of com well a rational aspect of that is and certainly was you don't want to tell your doctor this because the answer usually is I can fix that you we give you a shot of something and it'll go away and um you know that's been very common I know a number of people they will also say there's a huge difference between talking to doctors and talking to nurses nurses tend to be much more accepting of these sorts of things doctors come from a in general a much more materialistic uh worldview um again that's changing that's amazing to me now is how many doctors uh like eban that we mentioned earlier are coming forward and have had their own ndes now his was obviously lifechanging uh and again as a neurosurgeon this is this can't possibly be but here it is and now it's my experience and mhm so going back to remote viewing I interviewed Joe mcmonagle yesterday as you know know and we had spoken about he had spoken about a remote viewing that he did on Mars have you ever heard of other remote viewers remote viewing another planet or possibly another galaxy well one of the critical things that happened in the early days is that this is with the Engle Swan and um this was before we the target unbeknownst to everybody was Jupiter and everybody knew about the rings on Saturn and I forget whether the Voyager had gone out but had not gotten there yet and so he came back and a he didn't even know it was not the Target on the planet I mean it wasn't like he wants to go out it could have been anything in the world or in this case Beyond and he came back and reported Planet off planet and had rings around it and it was Jupiter and Prill said well [ __ ] Saturn has rings not Jupiter and Voyager went by and you know Jupiter has rings that we never knew about so that's when we had authentication I do hear stories of uh people who make it and very hard to believe there's one well there's a whole thing going on around now that you can probably find on the internet about that we actually have a base on Mars and that this gets into the pedophilia thing and that the kids are taken to the base there and I mean it just gets into things that are demonstrably false but does get into the the vocore uh that's there wow I've not heard of that yeah and I had had in fact there was an article that I got stopped that was being printed that said quote uh you think about the logistical aspects of maintaining a base on Mor we haven't been there but well other than remote craft and the quote was um the launches slip out of Cape canabal all the time I said no when they launch half of Florida knows that there's there's launches but this is the problem in all of these areas there is so much BS in there that it's very hard to and there's some percentage of people are going to believe anything so very true very true and I think we'll run into that with whatever we've talked about today CU many of the things we've talked about are kind of hard to believe and highly speculative have you ever heard of anyone remote viewing into a new Galaxy no I wonder if that would be possible well there should not be any limits that doesn't mean somebody has or has not done it the question was have I heard of it no but it's certainly within the realm of possibility now one of the issues that had come up early on for regarding the accuracy of remote viewing had to do with the ability to verify the event that you had to have at some time as we did with Jupiter for instance yeah we flew by and saw that it was accurate um so if you get into are is where you can't verify it then it's in the yeah who knows and going to at least at current time you know foreign galaxies would be different maybe a black hole that would be interesting yeah well there's a whole uh they Jo talking about some of the scientific applications that are in many areas where you can you know send this but we're talking about putting ious into an area where they can get accurate information this has huge implications in all of healing and uh by Guy a guy we never mentioned was do you know Jose Silva I don't Silva mind control oh it's a whole school and um Silva has since died but his mind I mean this is global uh school that goes out I was trained I was actually a state representative in Hawaii for number of years quite a while ago but Jose had grown up um he basically literate he was in a big family father dies he's the oldest child so he has to uh pick up uh and make so he worked in a barber shop and the barber was interested in electronics and so what they what he did he says was like an extension course and so Jose picks up and he says can I look at these yeah so he learned Electronics from reading the barber store and whatnot but he also found out that he had the the technical capability to pick up on you know where errors were in electronic systems and he gets drafted he goes in the Army and he goes to electronic school and um almost everybody else is an officer he's an enlisted man uh but he did not know the mathematics necessary to continue but he had this uncanny ability to fix the radios and things so what he did was to in his course uh when he traded information the the officers who'd all been to college would teach him math and he would teach them literally how to use their hands and find errors in electronic now that later change to doing similar sorts of things with diagnostic human Diagnostics and disease and very very effectively interest I was actually I was just going to ask you if you have heard of remote viewers remote viewing into the human body to maybe diagnose canc or or or no that's exactly what he was doing and and teaching folks and very interesting there are very there people who are seem to be more sensitive to you know you know the healing aspects of it I'll give you a strange case a guy that I was just talking to friend I've known again for decades uh I'll give the name Melvin Morris and Melvin was known for children and your death experience long story he ends up in jail in uh Delaware prison and had visit him there but there's a new program out on one of the things he had done was teach people to meditate and the effect that it was having on a number of folks and he said how do you meditate in jail because jails are just noisy constantly he talked about the process of uh teaching people just to take you know short periods of time and and be able to get information quieting the mind the other thing that I heard when I visited him there is here he is teaching these prisoners how to do Hands-On healing and you know this is not as he points out you know most of these are young black folks and he's an old white doctor you so culturally you know totally different and they would come to him for advice on you know medical issues and things like that and they would teach him some of the cultural issues of how to survive in in a prison but you know had the mutual relationship and was able to teach groups that just normally would not be uh involved in any of these sorts of things had had profound impact on a number of them uh particularly in drug addicts said quite a few of them were heroin addicts and they were able to teach them how to overcome uh the addiction because even in jail they would have the craving but using these meditative techniques were able to avoid it that's incredible that is incredible what a what an impact on the world that could make yeah right I got to I got to take a minute and wrap my head around this let's take a break okay I want to give a big thank you out right now to all the vigilance Elite patrons out there that are watching the show right now just want to say thank you guys you are our top supporters and you're what makes this show actually happen if you're not on vigilance lead patreon I want to tell you a little bit about what's going on in there so we do a little bit of everything there's plenty of behind the scenes content from the actual sha Ryan Show on top of that basically what I do is I take a lot of the questions that I get from you guys or the patrons and then I turn them into videos so we get right now there's a lot of concern about self-defense Home Defense crimes on the rise all throughout the country actually all throughout the world and so we talk about everything from how to prep your home how to clear your home how to get familiar with a firearm both Rifle and Pistol for beginners and advanced we talk about mindset we talk about Defensive Driving we have an end of the month live chat that I'm on at the end of every month where we can talk about whatever topics you guys have it's actually done on Zoom you might enjoy it check it out and if zoom's not your thing or you don't like live chats like I said there's a library of well over a 100 videos on where to start with prepping all the firearm stuff pretty much anything anything you can think of it's on there so anyways go to www.patreon.com vigilance Elite or just go in the link in the description it'll take you right there and if you don't want to and you just want to continue to watch the show that's fine too I appreciate it either way love you all let's get back to the show thank you how many guys out there are work wored about brain health you know all we hear about is Fitness everybody's getting ready for bikini season cuz Spring's right around the corner I'm personally more concerned about my brain you look around you see all these brain diseases that are getting out of control I'm going to take everything I can to improve the health of my brain and I'm going to tell you about my five favorite supplements from lired superfoods that help with brain health all right the first thing I do every morning is I have lired superfood creamer it's got adaptogens and functional mushrooms which are great for brain health I put this in my tea tastes amazing who likes vegetables cool me neither that's why I take L's Daily Greens just pour it in a cup shoot it real quick you got your daily vegetable intake plus guess what yep that's right functional mushroom extract there's six different kinds in here once again great for brain health after greens we got daily Reds this one doesn't actually have any functional mushrooms in it but I can't stand beets I think they taste like [ __ ] and so I take one scoop of this put in my water and I don't have to eat beets anymore all right we're winding down the day now this is the next supplement I take every single night LED sleep and Recovery helps me sleep helps me recover from my daily workout and guess what yep you're right it has mushroom extract guess what it's good for your brain and I Sav the best for last most of you know this my favorite supplement at lards is performance mushrooms has a ton of mushroom extract super super good for your brain take it every single day sometimes multiple times a day these are my five favorite supplements from lared superfoods you can go over to lared superfoods.com use the promo code SRS save 20% ladies and gents I would not have partnered with this company if I didn't believe in them they take the the cleanest ingredients they try to Source everything in America unless they find a better ingredient that's more quality somewhere else I think we can all appreciate that once again lared superfoods.com use the promo code SRS that'll save you 20% all right John we're back from the break we just kind of wrapped up your career at inscom and now we want to move into labcom can what is labcom well there's an intermediate step and that's that uh the uh Army of Mater L command and what had happened is that um of course the Navy has had a Office of Naval uh you know the research and the Army had just decided to integrate all the Army Laboratories that were kind of disperate so they put them under a laboratory command which is uh what it was now at the time well do you know The Color of Money green oh uh let's not get into that that's to get this is by The Color of Money I mean when Congress appropriates things it comes down with certain characteristics assigned to it and whatnot and the P6 account see you want to know in the other one we were working in the P2 account which is the intelligence funding so when I moved to laboratory command or well actually Army material command we're working the 63 account which is the R&D money and I was uh interesting I was executive this is one of the areas where strange things uh happen um the Army was looking for the next big X next they had just done the big five and that was the Abrams tank and the Bradley and the uh the helicopters had come out the Apache and that and then U the fifth one the missile come uh Patriot missile and oh it was the Blackhawk Apache and and P and so the question was okay those are just getting fielded you know what's the next step and I I was the military guy in a office that was running this at uh Army material command I don't know if you want to digress because this gets into the serendipitous kinds of things that happen there's a guy who's working that program and I know it's in trouble because I'm handling all the paperwork that's coming through I'm working for an sces still Lieutenant Colonel at the time uh with no hopes of promotion but uh I I had been saved uh from the inscom mil the or until tell folks who were you would have ground me up in in a heartbeat we were very much not happy with any of these things that were going on I mean there was quite a battle and they said my boss had been forced out of the military over that so I'm I'm watching the paperwork in this program and uh the guy who's running us out on uh doing a tour because it was all over the country had Laboratories C mostly civilian Laboratories doing all the work and uh looking at it and I'm seeing some memos come through from our three star boss and they're dripping in Blood and I'm going um Harry won't use his last name you better get back here oh no no I'm going to go on I said you better get back here and uh he saids no no I'm going on so I got a call instead of was supposed to meet with uh Dr Haley and uh and then with the three star level and like they ask me question like where do you live kind of a strange question here I was in Springfield Virginia and uh they said oh by the way next Monday you have this program and it was huge I mean was what I asked about the color of money is is basically the 63a program that covers billions uh now I didn't control that but you had oversight over all of the Laboratories that were doing these things independently and they say next Monday it's year wait a minute you know how did we end up here I ended up writing a plan that uh frankly got me promoted and uh the simple words it was the new thrust is what it was called and was going to be what what is the next big kinds of things and the thing that uh worked was I said new thrust is a process as opposed to a thing it's a procedure for how do we transition you know from early R&D into research and or engineering development and those sorts of thing so I had the step that was between pure R&D and and research or engineering development so this is a huge step in there and I went out to this guy's office in Tyson's Corner going looking who office is this and they said it's yours and I said any fourstar general saw this I they' get killed you know I mean we literally had the shanas the mountains and all they had least and that's that was part of the problem they had spent awful lot of money and overhead and things like that but really nice so working those programs and uh then the Army and infinite wisdom decided that they ought to bring the Laboratories together and have one command a two Star level command that had oversight over that and part of that was the Esco or the Advan systems concept office now if you had to understand is that U we were in a an organization that was between 1 and 2% green meaning uniform I had five I guess gs1 15s that worked for me I mean each of them had had major sectors and we were looking at uh big up with Precision guided munals remember we're talking the 80s now we're we're nowhere near you know where we are now in technology this is the stuff that's evolving had a whole RTO component reconnaissance uh Target acquisition or surveillance Target reconnaissant head c4i with command control Communications where how computers were now being integrated everything and and all of the Tactical directed energy and the these were lasers microwaves and then particle beams were part of it and again we got to remember the technology was nowhere where it was then and um so anyway I uh ended up working for a couple of different two star uh generals there but that was the Thruster but again very straightforward very I mean it was The Cutting Edge of uh technology in the late 80s interesting and where did you go from there uh retirement retirement yeah what what happened uh position became vacant and um we had talked before about military personnel Center well they don't like it I said they had been past into all of these positions from general to general and them being told now you know fix it and uh so they came up with a position that basically had to be a a full Colonel and breathe and I said you got to be [ __ ] me right I mean I'm running all of the super Hightech stuff and I'm no not happening yeah yeah so you retired yeah and um did see up until this well back up a bit when I was yeah at army materiel command the Colonel's um board was meeting and I had zero probability of getting promoted I mean I knew that as I mentioned earlier I had done two tours ever in the Infantry and technically I'm being evaluated as an infantry officer had not commanded a battalion had done all this wild and wonderful stuff I mean Gotten Good efficiency reports because the people that I had worked for you know that's what they want to do but uh I got a call from that three star and said oh by the way congratulations you got to be kidding me I was already thinking on the outside ego wouldn't take getting passed over but I mean your promotion rate was about 30% or something so that's why I say the probability was just not there so Cham okay you need to rethink this um did those jobs and then got out and had a uh digression but it's uh it was offered a very good job with one of the big contractors but because of what they offered it had to go to the CEO to be signed off so I'm waiting and uh what happens that's I I mentioned Oak uh friend of mine Oak Shannon who's in the Navy but working at Los Alamos is having a retirement party so um uh Los Alamos has posted uh interest for a job so well I'll go take that because a good way to go to the party right have them pay for it so I went out to the party and it did interview of course with a job and damned if they don't come back and make an offer counter offer the morning I'm at the party the officer uh the Personnel guy from the one of the major ones calls me and said uh okay it's it's been approved and i' go well sorry about that but you know I need to think about it and the difference by the way was uh not money it was the difference in vacation time that lanel was under you know the government rules and the problem is when you transition to cilian Industry from the military you're starting as if you're a new kid coming in you got to build up and uh so I said the answer was no I I went to Los Alamos instead because of the party wow what how did it go at Los Alam how did what you how did how did it go at Los Alamos that's a that's a location with a lot of well Mystique around it now I had been there a number of times before and particularly with subin I mean we did lots of and lots of very very Hightech now you're talk in the National Lab for those who don't know this is basically a nuclear weapons lab um it's you know kind of the premiere we in in San were the premier labs in the area now what's critical at this juncture cold war ends now that was critical because up until that time as a nuclear weapons lab Mana was provided you never had to question whether or not you needed money or what it would be cold war ended we know we had the peace dividend that we spent too quickly and so all of a sudden you had to compete in areas that you never competed before I mean this is at the highest level Frankie Sandia and levore were eating our lunch there but that was because of the upper level thing so I went in to do one job and got siphoned off into a um kind of of a generic uh military applications uh directorate and um what happens there is we have a number of critical things that come along we' had urgent Fury which is Grenada had just cause and we're looking I'm looking at what's going on in the world and how do you want to approach it from a technology perspective and it was clear to me at least is that we needed a whole different set of weapons opportunities and it comes out frequently you can't kill your way out of these things and you looked at particularly in um just cause you're going into Panama our [ __ ] with Nora and his henchmen not with the general Panamanian people you got big families with long memories and you really uh you don't want to minimize the fatalities of what's going on right now you know in Gaza is an exception to that but it was the military perspective is not about killing it's about imposing will what how can you get the adversary to do what you want them to you don't necessarily want them to now in the past we've talked about and have had Wars of annihilation so when you get into World War II and how you went about you literally were annihilating uh the adversary and now the kinds of conflicts that were developing called for totally different rethinking on application of force um so it was from that that I had came up with the concept of what I call non-lethal weapons defense now the police of course had this issue you already and um what is it Walker there was a critical case that had just emerged where you couldn't shoot a fleeing felon and that changed the police so they were already starting to look at that I was looking at it from a much broader concept from you know application of forest but it was from the simple stuff you know about like tasers and you know bean bag bullets and and uh pepper ball and all that up to what we called strategic uh incapacitation how do you take down a nation state and do that without a casualties or minimal casualties and not secondary and tertiary casualties if you take out the the power system you know how long you going to bring it up before you start having secondary fatalities on all that so start started developing that and that led to lots of studies and conferences that I ran and NATO studies and eventually to the uh uh Council on Foreign Relations and participating with them science board defense science board can you get into some of the specifics with some of the non-lethal weapons that were developed the whole concept yeah I wrote there a whole book the first book that I no actually the second book was uh called future War uh non-lethal weapon Warfare in 21st century and everybody thinks about this generally in term of like I said the anti-personnel stuff tasers and all this and I I did know the guys who did tasers and but when you got into the more complex applications like how do you how do you take down a country negotiate uh and it it can be done that gets into the more sensitive system but a lot of it did have to do with application in electromagnetic uh systems and things of that nature can you get into that or is that stuff sealed well the problem there is I'm you know primarily dated uh cuz I worked at lanel and then I retired from there and in ' 95 the second time and um yeah now I was later with the Army science board and some others were overlooking into those systems but yeah I just right I mean what we've done with laser lasers have always been the great promise infinite magazine and all of that uh microwaves took on just mythical proportion every study I was on you found out how many people thought you just you know pulse power and there a lot of stuff you can do and it has come a long way the same with lasers the efficiency has increased in power and those sorts of things so it's yeah but you know where we are today is I'm sure light years ahead of where we were when we were just you know developing most people don't know it but myop which was Missile Command I think it was 19 in the 1960s actually cut a wing off an airplane in flight no kidding yeah that uh there was a CO2 laser at the time but don't realize that these things went back and it's taken a hell of a lot of work and tons and tons of money to get to the capabilities that exist today where was that laser fired from oh that was redstone that was Redstone Redstone Arsenal yeah right down the road in Alabama yeah was it fired from Earth I don't no this was you remember this was these were not fielded systems we're talking again basic R&D okay but uh I mean it was just that you had the capability to test it at the time and yeah that far back to your knowledge have we used these weapons oh we have I mean they've been developed uh kind of a classic example I was controlling two different uh laser Technologies one was totally on the black world and the other one was white but classified and the big mistake was the one that was white world but classified or black no they went out and developed a constituency that uh supported it said hey we want these things see a lot of what my job was people say what do you do I said well I'm a translator and by that I meant I would tell the mil military Community here's what you know the science can do I would tell the civilian laser Community you know here's what the military wants this is what we needed to do yeah and so this was one of the key areas So what had happened is that one group developed something that be called became Stingray and it was a uh counter laser system now remember we're still talking bad old days and the problem in or a huge problem in the Soviet Battlefield in Europe was we could kill the tanks but they came with lust of friends and neighbors and so the issue is how do you stop enough number at a time and Stingray was designed to go out and and blind that blind the lasers or blind the sensor systems so you had enough time to hit it with you know hard Munitions and things uh but the other technology frankly was better and they finally decided to uncover it and the requirements Community look at that said but I know this so they the requirements went to what interestingly fast forward to yeah uh Desert Storm I guess and they decided to field it won't get into individuals but anyway it went over and there was a general who was had lost the leg so he was you know sensitive to those things and said basically I'm not going to use it I'm afraid of because they were potentially blinding they were designed as again as a counter sensor system but uh I remember giving briefings on the Pentagon and Max Thurman was the vice chief of staff at the time and he'd get dramatic I got eyeballs or draining down that's not what you want so the whole issue on blinding lasers and uh but we were we had already known that U Iran had been using Soviet systems in against Iraq and blinding intentionally blinding folks so I ran into constantly these issues on legality as well as ethical uh applications a s side like yeah we could not win World War II today because of you know if we applied the the rules that we fight under today with uh uh what we did in World War II and people forget that yeah yeah very uh very true different set of rules these days yeah no doubt about it and so so from Los Alamos you went to us Socom no no I I retired a second time yeah no I I retired I was out uh this is when I went to actually to nids and that Circle and then the thing came up and uh position well again it gets back to my boss the the the guy who was the Inspector General of the army the one who I had moved under you know when they moved out from uh uh from the inspector General's office while I had kept in touch with him he created something called MPR I don't know if you're familiar with them but it was one of the big Beltway Bandits that put together so and uh we were still in contact in fact he when I wrote future War he's one of the forward he had become he was brought in under Bush the Elder to fix the link uh leaks in the White House and so kind of stayed plugged into those but he had this private company that's coming up and I had called him and said they were looking for somebody with the skills that I had before and he called them and said don't let this one get away so next thing you know I'm in route to Afghanistan and as a contractor there and has the the job title is very grandio or a contra mentor to the Minister of Defense as since fahim's there then after I came back then there were people there who had KN known some of the things we' written before and people had moved around and uh then uh issue with jaaw came up and was a non-resident senior fellow there let's I would like to talk about some of the stuff you did in the atip program which atip it was not associated with atip or all that do you have knowledge of it h do you have knowledge of it can you talk about the beginning of it oh that's much oh no no no the apples and oranges we're now jumping back a few decades okay yeah yeah when uh yeah this was during the period I was at AMC um people got together and we started asking questions like what is what's going on with the UFO prr we had heard all of the rumors some of which are still kind of breaking today and so I said okay well let's do it and so I set up uh a group it was inter agency it had you know all the services uh various people from the intelligence community and a fair number from Aerospace industry and the requirements were that you had to have the TS seci clearances you had to have interest in the area we had to know who you were and like I say these things keep getting being interrelated stubblebine has moved to BDM as a vice president of for intelligence I think it was at BDM at the time which is another one of the big Beltway Bandits and so I was still in touch with them daytime I was running the new thrust program I think by that time and um so discuss what we want to do so they were a he was Joe bradock was the B of the BDM so I went to Joe and and told him what we wanted to do and says okay so it gave us the space so we had the skip to run the thing and you know we had a number of sessions there stuff on the internet that you know even I don't have the record up there there was a requirement uh no written records and that and um everybody paid their own way so was unfunded at the time and obviously that was not adhered to because I found out people went back wrote notes and had since shown up on the internet but we were going on and on looking at again the whole UFO project which was the approach was very different from what you're seeing today um my experience was we had groups together and people who should have known going didn't you do that I thought you did that you know isn't that you and I mean everybody knew the basics but everybody seemed to think that somebody else was doing it and so had put together a basic briefing and moved higher and higher and higher up the food chain uh ended up in the secretary charot and three and four star general well first one was a three star general there was the guy I worked for because I had run several meetings and it was uh I I can't let him hear about this in the Washington Post so went in said yeah I got to confess here's what I've been doing I said well that's pretty interesting but we better tell my boss who's the four star out of the other building and he's a logistician and um going like well I wonder how this is going to so they set it up and I meet with him and goes well gee that's pretty interesting you know how can I help I said well we're meeting I think it was in San Antonio there's a series of four stars and and I've got to give a briefing I would like to meet your counterpart from the Air Force and uh he got the got the hand off there and then went back uh to you know Air Force I think was systems command I'm not sure but uh these were yeah down in um the you know Andrew's Air Force bases where they were scheduled and ended up doing the briefing there and he goes why is this green you know it seems like it ought to be here didn't know he says well I'm not sure go at that time space command was a two Star Command at elag gundo uh LAX and uh so went out there and uh met with the commander and he goes well that's pretty interesting you can tell was Don CA that may still be around who ended up being the fourstar commander of space command L when it became the command went up but he says tell them Cino says yes uh and I had some Air Force folks with me who were supporting it because we had been at NORAD and places like that now the problem that I found was that at NORAD people at lower levels they they were seeing stuff can you what is NORAD oh North American Air Defense command uh Cheyenne Mountain in Colorado so but what you found out pretty quickly was that reporting this stuff was not career enhancing I mean nobody wanted to believe you now interesting when you jump ahead to laboratory command my first uh boss there was uh Jim cersi who was a major general where that's significant is he had come from norat because U you know the nature of that you know they're on high alert all the time and if anything's coming so their staff officer senior level officer of the day is a brigadier general and CI had come from there as a BG uh this is where I run into the difference between things are you know being reported now he thought I was crazy I mean you know definitely never heard anything so I think what you saw saw was a difference between guys who are running the sensor systems and the upper level staff who said yeah they periodically get unusual phenomena but you don't want to be the guy who gets associated with it yeah and we ended up eventually at SDI then Star Wars and I met with the Commanding General of Star Wars oh it's interesting this had been set up by another General normally when you're operating at that level you see you know read heads and that so they they know what you're coming and talk about that had not happened here and uh I went in and I had an Entourage from the various agencies uh with me and uh again he doesn't know what it is so I started out with UFO 101 and we're talking for a little bit and all of a sudden he stops and wait wait wait who are you guys really we went back around the room and to the agency so we sort of you know said yeah this is really what you but the point there is here's the guy who is setting up the Strategic Defense man Strategic Defense of Star Wars and remember the rumor mill has it that this was to fight ich and stuff like that who clearly had had no idea what we were talking about and by the time we were done it was an hour or two later he goes okay well you got my attention but I can't touch this and he had a five billion dollar budget it was the biggest budget in all of DOD which was where we went to we were now going to transition to let's make this serious official funded program and his point was I can't touch it if I get caught doing this he says now look I'm doing some hairy stuff now and this is in a straight World technologies that are out there a lot of debate on whether use kinetic kill I hit to kill missions or could we use de in space Etc but he said if I get caught you know got to get crucified and you know again he had the biggest budget I I told the story but thing he used to get me on the Pentagon say I'm going to go find the money like there's pots of money no but what it means is I'm going to steal it from somebody else's program and he was the target kind of across the board but he said look if you can tell me what to look for I can include that in the algorithms and was willing to go that far but not to have you know kind of officially be involved which is kind of this was is counterintuitive to all of things that you're hearing today yeah what what kind of stuff were you guys studying at the advanced thetical physics program well we were you know this was a long time ago this was our thinking on it was quite different we were looking at physical thing we were looking at the key incidents that had happened around the world what were those incidents oh we're talking hours of briefings here now um I'll give you probably one of the biggie was the Teran incident with gerani where uh this is a case where they've got a huge UFO that's being seen from Teran airport that will launched this is by the way sha still in power which is kind of key here uh so they send up to uh interceptors and um what was interesting is the goes for you know what am I looking for you know you'll know when you see it now this is a thing is being seen by the tower in Tron they've got Radars confirming that there's something up there so no doubt about it the guy goes in and he goes well got am9 missiles um they're going to shoot it when when he does that turns off his weapons panel gets in closer and all the communications are shut off but he's back he still got control of the plane brings it he comes back out and um Communications comes back up it's interesting this guy is still with uh the Shaw's air for I think he's still on but he made three stars he one of the ones that survived the uh transition uh now what was there were two things that were interesting to me one I don't know is did he flip a switch so we now have Target acquisition on this physically sending a signal out that the UFO was picking up on or was it I thought about it and they turned him off now again I said I was running the directed energy stuff right I know how to turn you off don't know how to turn you back on again and so that was really critical also some things came out and chased him and some other stuff went down to the desert and so was you know a major incident was technically classified at the time became unclassified after the uh Shaw left and and that what do you mean went down into the desert now there was something that came out of the big UFO that went down they don't know but we we do know that people on the ground saw something coming down there's been several reports of that right H there's been several reports since of UFOs going into the ocean without splash the main craft is is in the sky this is something that came out of it something that chase them and some stuff that went down but the important thing was that I guess there are some Shepherds out there who reported seeing something uh coming down no what you're talking about here is the trans medium things uh that's one of the applications and yeah it's not just ocean and remember the U when Brandon fugle was here and we met with him a couple times after that but there is something in the um last season of uh you know secret of Skinwalker Ranch where they're seeing something that comes down it's lights and then gets into the Mesa and comes out of the Mesa now you can't follow through the Mesa but the kind of assumption is whatever it is was going through the Mesa which means transiting physical material you know that's kind of hard which a little different from underwater um which is interesting cuz you were stud study in this early on oh well one of the things I point out is that when the assap program came out and released their Rel everything they said we knew 35 years ago easy you all I mean what they have added to the puzzle is a is the Court's official uh but it's a new sensor system so you have you know more hard data it's like when you have fraver and um captain's name but well fraver in particular you know where they're capturing it on cameras and so you have multi one of my key points is multi sensor so you're not saying some crazy guy or you know we didn't perceive it that we have multiple sensors that are are catching these things and one of the things that they've talked about looking down remember he he sees it it disappears it turns up at his control Point almost instantaneously and they see it and it said it looks like it's communicating with something underwater and U oh dear have to watch any but no it's just that Soul conference at uh U Stanford University and Admiral uh who's doing that he's now retired he was also the head of Noah uh but his interest is in the underwater uh stuff because you do pick up things that are moving really fast uh certainly not biologic uh but that's a and as they point out most of the ocean has not been mapped you know awful lot of space um but that was actually the cases that I think I heard of it were similar and the reason they were classified may still be I don't know but was where they were but this stuff was being reported you know 40 50 years ago mm what are some of the other what are some of the other incidents that you studied oh I think the the biggest in my view was what's known as bentwaters or Rome Forest um yeah Chuck halt is probably the best guy on this uh Chuck was the deputy base commander at uh uh bentwaters and um this is volumes written on the particular case but I found it very significant because of the number of people involved and it's one of the few cases most of the time you study these things and The credibility ility know this is one they get stronger uh over time and more and more people coming out and now they found uh wasn't fairly Rec radar confirmation that there was something over the base and um it was not a singular event what I learned from Chuck later this was had been going on for a long time and it turns out this was almost like the ranch kind of thing where the events had been reported for decades just keeps happening huh it just keeps happening of of various kinds I mean some of them were lights in the sky and strange phenomena uh being reported but the particular one here was and it started in uh late December uh 1980 uh by the way you should come back to Cas andrum because it's interesting that that happened at the the same night but so this one's out there and they see what they think is a a plane has crashed or something off the base and so um uh Roger penon and John Burrows and other one go out there and um well they have to they're this gets very sensitive now because you're leaving a military base and they have to leave these are uh air policemen leave the weapons behind because you you know the sofa agreement as to what you can and can't do and where you can do it so they go out and uh was interesting because years later I called uh Jim peniston who was a Staff Sergeant at the time and so I want to talk to you about the UFO he says Oh you mean the one I touched and actually walked up on this there's a heavy thing sitting on the ground it's in like I said late December and what was interesting is there's actually indentations on the ground and they've seen the plaster cast from this so you had physical evidence of this thing sitting on the ground must have had weight he he talks about certain symbols that he saw and wrote those up um so the first incident that happens few days later they're having a end of the year party or Christmas party and Chuck is there and uh they're about to give out the awards for you know being nice people and that and he says the Provost Marshall comes in he says they're back he says who's back he the UFOs are back and fact tells us B but it was I'll take care of this one of the worst decisions he probably ever made you know I'm going to go out and we're going to resolve this so he gets uh forgot the the sergeant was who was with him who gets uh radiac meters and things to check on radiation and whatnot and he goes out um they go out outside the Bas using a Radia acture enough there's stuff above background noise and here's this thing hovering out in the trees ahead of them and it starts manipulating staying away from them then listen to five pieces and Zips off and as I recall two of them come over and shoot a beam at his feet and so he goes back so he's recording this at the time of of what's happening and that eventually got released and then the conventional wisdom was oh because of the periodicity to these lights that are appearing and he said it's got to be the a lighthouse at some distance away and they went back and looked at it and said you can't see the lighthouse from there but we have over 60 Witnesses now are you familiar with the PRP Personnel reliability program no okay well again the other aspect of what was not known at the time was that bent Waters was the forward most nuclear storage area in Europe and and supposedly this thing came over and it was shooting beams down into the storage area and I had met with Chuck oh I've now moved to Los Alamos and years later I heard about this and I knew where he was a civilian had set up lunch like to meet with him and what he says was because nothing so there was no debriefing or anything of that nature at the time uh and he says oh I'm finally going to get debriefed because I'm coming from Los Alamos and now I'm there to ask questions and whatnot he um he is convinced a lot of his people were screwed with uh after this their careers in general did not fare well uh Burrows has had significant medical issues and some of this does get into classified uh I know they had trouble even getting his medical records I think kit got involved in even obtaining his medical records cuz he was trying to address heart problems that he had uh but again it's the amount of witnesses the physical witness recurring event um you know pretty damn significant but as I mentioned the cash Landrum happens at the same time the cash landom is a case where UFO is saying importantly as fairly close to Houston a remote area two women and a boy are driving down the road and here's this UFO that's kind of strutting in supposed he sting flame out or something and there are depends on the count 22 23 helicopters that are supposedly circulating around it now this is the I think it's the 27th of December and if you know anything about what goes on between Christmas and New Year's basically nothing so anyway uh what happens is they stop the car and they get out Betty cash runs around in front of it uh landram opens the door stands behind the little boy Cody gets out looks he gets scared runs around and jump back he's now grown and they they've talked to these issue so the point was that they were exposed to some kind of radiation and Betty cash who had got out in front in fact later died from leukemia but she has whole body radiation Landrum not so much but she's standing with the car door so it's partially blocking it and Cody a little boy who runs around jumps back so he's got minimal so everything physically fits fast forward a few years um they sue the government specifically the air force uh over this event because of danger and the supposition here is this was some kind of test vehicle that was out there in radiant and particularly because of the helicopters um what happens is that uh the Air Force looks at it and says ain't ours and by sides those helicop those are army helicopters and so it comes to Army IG well remember I used to work there so the guy who gets the case comes to me and a couple other people who were radiation experts and he went out and did a fantastic study I mean very extensive and what we know the only military helicopter was a huey who had been in the area earlier in the day but had landed back at Fort Hood uh before this event occurred and they went so far as to hit the Marines and the Marines were off of Florida they they were not in the area where might have had Chinooks or something and the point is they weren't ours and you know even after extensive search you could not account for the helicopter the radiation the UFO any but absolutely certain that it happened and their description and injuries are totally consistent with the story that they told there no doubt the event happened what do you think what what do you make of this I have no idea like I say they came I was one of the people that George uh ran who was the uh IG who got the case I talked to and to this day I've talked to him a couple of years back when this came up again and just said you know see this is a problem and again my UFO book the first line is that I wrote is UFOs are real the last paragraph is whatever this is it is more complex than we can imagine are there any other incidents that you feel were extremely significant oh hundreds can you go into some more fed giant case this is one where well by first of all the northern chair sightings were ones that were going on across the the northern United States these were all a missile Bas sidelight one of the things that was interesting if you I think it's in Blue Book but one of the reports from a young patrolman uh a uh air air patrolman without guarding the base and he he reports the missile the caveat was the only reason we report he reported this because he's new and hasn't seen him before the point is everybody is is seeing the stuff now the uh this particular case um Bob Sou was on he was a missile control officer but uh air patrolman on top are seeing UFOs on and they call down and says you know what do we do and all of a sudden he goes I haven't got time to talk about that missiles are going offline and 7 to eight missiles go offline uh and so he calls back to NORAD headquarters and and goes our Miss and say we haven't got time to talk to you this is think echo in November the sites mied up says the other site is already down 10 for 10 now we are talking here if you know the nuclear Triad this is you when you want significant when when when you now mpdi uh is two missiles but basically you'd get one every 6 months in the entire wing and here here you've got you know 17 18 down simultaneously and you know there's no doubt about it now I do know what happened CU I talked to most of the people involved that they went uh I mean this was a WTF right a huge and not like it went unnoticed and they went through and looked at every possibility and couldn't not come up with them I mean they did tests on it was EMP was the short with you know uh and nobody has ever come up with a solution I might mention it's not just us this is one where you have the Soviet this is where George knp gets involved so he went over he'd been in the Soviet Union in in Russia later in Ukraine there's another one where their case is a little different the UFO hovers up here for hours with hundreds of witnesses they don't shut the missiles down they start spinning them up so and this guy's you know the launch offic about to start World War III and I can't stop it and again this thing have been hovering there for hours plenty of witnesses and then all of a sudden it uh shuts off and uh now the difference that I think is critical here is that see we trusted our launch Control Officers Soviets did not and so the Soviet system was centralized it had to have been in order for that to happen it had to run from Moscow and obviously it didn't ours was Central so it shut down theirs them and runs up and this was one he had gone uh I think it was Russ Russia by the time he had brought those files out but um yeah I mean I don't know how much more significant than you get than yeah screwing with nuclear weapons yeah no kidding what if you you had to have thought about where where did these come from are they coming from where are they coming from you want to vent out there oh yeah I think that's the wrong question what is the bright question well see I don't I come down against the ET hypothesis that's the exteral hypothesis little gray guys from Zeta reticuli coming here words that we're using now have to do more with ultra terral and my point would be that there are a number of possibilities interdimensional uh temporal Distortion I Time Travelers and things like that now this gets into if you haven't been involved in this sounding really crazy that's okay but as you look at these things you go you know one of my points is that there are reports of incidents between humans and sentient nonhumans throughout the entirety of human history and in all culture my pet phrase is and if they fly in a little tin cans that's kind of a new wrinkle to a very old story uh yeah when you say this um well if you get the Skinwalker Ranch the beings of some kind moving back and forth through Dimension if you're using an interdimensional construct the where you know overcomes all the issues how do you get there from here and whatnot though I do think you can probably get super luminal I know a lot of folks will disagree with that but um it gets away from the whole problem of like I said little gray guys from Zeta reticuli um your back to your fundamental issue of consciousness what about it where are you going well if Consciousness creates matter and that that that that this is some interaction unconsciousness that you know beyond our understanding at at this point certainly so you think but remember as I said not just in you know the the sensing you get into ghosts and the spiritual beings into it's kind of a host of things that have been reported for Millennia yeah let's let's move into we'll come back I want to come back we're going to revisit that question when we get into your time with Bigalow it's skin walker Ranch but I would like to move into some of the since we're let's move into some of the Paranormal stuff we' been to over a hundred you've been to over a hundred countries y stud this stuff and so I know you had a lot of you you you had a lot of time visiting Shaman throughout the world what's what's sparked your interest in shamans well again this is stuff that's sort of evolved and of course a history of um shamans oh one of the big things of course is IA my wife is sort of a devote there and have been at a lot of Ceremonies in different places and um yeah I think she's the one who really from the shaning and studying from the religious aspect has kind of driven it and in fact we're getting ready to go to the UK to U uh Arthur Finley College who to teach trans mediumship in U a few weeks really yep interesting we we'll get into that too but okay but the medium again is of course iasa and what I've seen there you how much you want to discuss that but U let me jump to where I think you want to go and that is where you see physical kinds of things and and people ask me what's the most unusual circumstance and that's probably in uh West Africa uh studying budo and trust me budo is real and budo is not just a religion there it's an entire way of life and the things we saw with the shamans um just defy the laws of thermodynamics they would stand in the fire eat the fire sit in the fire uh and come away unscathed and I am videotaped a lot closer than we are so it's hot you know so there's no doubt about you know heat or radiation off of it I've got videos there one in particular where uh this head Shaman is there and he put the thing on his tongue and his his face disappears in there now CRI issue it's got long chin whiskers don't singe now the other aspect was they brought out two kids that were about 10 years old and uh he's going to pass the power to them and he goes like this you know and touches them and they able no he did say they're not fully initiated yet so but they're still handling fire in ways that would burn us but way back and you know you want to Circle back in Tony Robbins one of the things that we did with him was firew walking this is back in the in the inscom days so see all these things keep getting kind of integrated in ways that are hard to uh understand but we did fit firew walking and what was what was your goal what was your goal with exploring Shamanism throughout the world world just was it curiosity as in past tense is it is it curiosity yeah um kind I wish I knew I mean they just these things just keep evolving and there are some things that are coming up that are proprietary that uh are going to be changing it it's at least on the level of uh grush talking about UFOs and do we have any but there are some big things on the on the horizon but and hopefully our understanding of Consciousness I I don't think you can totally understand all of this but again the the issues of complexity come up uh pretty quickly you mentioned iasa ceremonies you've right what are some of the things that you've experienced and and why let me rephrase this question what is the connection with psychedelics in the altered Consciousness well first of all I do not think that psychopharmacology answers the basic question we know DMT dyl tryptamine is the supposedly psychoactive substance having said that the things that I've witnessed uh I have seen people take huge amounts and have no effect I've seen them take minor amounts and have transformational effects that's why I say the psychopharmacology because that's based on you x amount with X body weight or condition you know we understand the result uh Victoria I mean she will say that the goddess or the mother aasa calls that it's literally a calling um and I've seen it under a number of circumstances in we did a lot in Peru and near aitos uh have been in Ecuador and again in Santo D which is a rapidly evolving religion that was in Brazil having seen said that we've seen other things inand and contemp this many of them have similar kinds of things some uh without any external uh stimulation uh one of the the strangest events and it's one that I have a whole segment on Brazil uh in the book um we had attended omand conf ceremony about 300 folks and about 10 Gringos uh this is near CA a little city of 3 million people you never heard of in southern Brazil there's lots of those that people don't realize uh how big the country is how many these cities are but anyway um they called forward and said does anybody want a healing and Victoria always so jumps out and the uh had budoo Priestess is going down young woman probably in her 20s and she goes like this and Victoria says something basically be familiar with possession we're talking about becoming possession by or possessed by another spirit and now this is a group that's used to seeing Spirit possession take place as part of the religion they don't see Gringo possessed and so Victoria is out spinning on thing I mean it you talk about stopping the show that was was it and one of the guys comes over says well was taking pictures and say you're a reporter said that's my wife he says she'll be okay and does not remember anything that happened but is you're talking about total full body possession and you do see some of these things with the psychoactive substances so these things get intertwined and I don't think there's direct causal links that necessary take because he has had um you know pretty profound transformational experiences in the Ia Arena I've tried it a couple times I'm not a fan I want to emphasize this will never be a recreational drug there are side effects politely called purging sometimes running it both ends you know which will kind of you're not going to do this at a party uh my you know personal definitely there were things going on and you're seeing colors that probably don't exist I do recommend people look at we had met uh uh oh what was the name the uh iasa artist and if you walk the paintings they're about as close to what you might see uh in that state um but you know nothing I could say is unexplained but I have seen uh you know people get really really have mystical types of experiences and interestingly these usually go all night or a good bit of it and then stop but the next day hangover or you and uh our our friend is Ron Wheelock who's known as the Gringo Shaman who I do recommend but um you know he says you know it is going to end it's interesting you see people screaming and shouting and having you know is just terrible and the next morning say that's exactly what I needed I do think it is an area that we need to be looking at in PTSD by the way one of the things I was talking to the other Sean last night and program you can see Lisa Ling did one called This is life where she does uh look at this and Ron's involved we missed her by a day uh down in kidos but um yeah as I said the bottom line is psychopharmacology doesn't answer it their position is that there's more than the cup and the lip do you do you think you're able to tap into a higher Consciousness we'd have to describe higher there they do certainly get into other sort of forms of Consciousness and my personal experience was seeing certain and you do see it in the paintings as well things that emerg there that seem to be kind of universal symbols that are indicative of cultures that they've never had contact with and you go how would you know where would that come from you could of course you know dream it up but uh yeah what's become popular of course now in the US is micro doing we're doing it for S sessions we were in well in s Dame which is all over religious ceremony and then they go through these song I think the first one was like 21 different songs that it goes on for hours and hours but uh been able to watch the folks there and it's uh you know they're definitely out of it in the kind of normal sense although one of the things I mentioned because I do know like first time I tried uh you're very you can be very much aware of the current thing so the saying of you've lost your senses you're going to say something that not at all what you have you still have control and and make it although you are exposed to other realities senses as you might expect where do you think these realities come from where does reality come from these these alter these other realities that you're experiencing on psychedelics where do they come from oh no wait wait are we talking about psychedelics or are we talking about reality because psychedelics would be a kind of a tiny subset well you had mentioned people are experiencing what are they experiencing yes well that's actually an interesting question the short answer would be don't know because um you know are these other realities that they're now having access to uh or is this just something is being generated uh in the mind that they you know when you answer the question about reality remember we go back to when we say the physical arises from reality so this is an experience that you're normally have certain cognitive aspects to it but that would be far from the saying that's the the cause or the downstairs we had had a short conversation about reincarnation I'd like you to talk about reincarnation 25 words or less um well what I was alluding to at the time was from near-death experiences that most of the people uh I I know most of the key researchers in the field and as the past president used to answer all kinds of letters and things on it and the bottom line is you know the thing that makes the most sense from our perspective is some form of reincarnation now when you get into that I mean this is kind of an hours and hours of speculation one of the ones that comes up initially is well take a Hindu religion uh can you be animal you know the sacred cows and all that I think Buddha said he was a rabbit six times or something like that so you know are there can can you reincarnate in other forms uh a natural one that comes up is well if here uh what about other planets now one of the things like as I said in the ET Arena um is your extra extraterrestrial life beyond all Reasonable Doubt and you don't have to that's pure numbers the was it 16 septian inhabitable planets I mean the number just keeps going and even if you're a pure materialist you would have to say just purely chemicals getting together must have happen someplace in that then you go well does it happen simultaneously to our development Etc but it says yeah there's intelligent life someplace in the universe now if you extrapolate that to re Incarnation and say well does it have to be Earth you know what form does it take place I mean this gets into really complex uh again cognitive uh approaches that um you if if you want me to take step for further for you I'd love for you to take it a step further that you know it's not just you say well I asked you the question you didn't answer who who were you and I ask a lot of people and a number of people say well I remember you know various aspects of things as if they're um suppose that you actually planned life and that you know what you're playing out and then you get into the whole Free Will versus predestination uh conundrum and what they would say is you have free will you chose a life form that certain events are going to happen that you're going to be afford uh afforded a chance to make decisions and that all the learning experience and yeah you'll make some bad decisions along the way and maybe if you come back again you'd not make that they say karma's a [ __ ] but um yeah I'd say the evidence has coming out pretty strong that um and I by the way I try not to get into people's religious beliefs and all that and we get into inde we go into this the pure here's what the evidence says so I would emphasize here what we're talking about is highly speculative and I I recognize that there's many people who studied much uh much more and of course there are whole religions based on the by the way it was in a tenant of the Christian religion up until was it 566 533 where it was voted out uh in Constantinople and uh some people say that this is kind of a control missm because if you believe in all all stuff in reincarnation and nothing's wrong you say what the hell why don't I you know do lots of bad things or things that feel good or whatnot that ethically you probably shouldn't because you know it's a free ride and other will say that's not the point and this is when you get into what's the application or meaning uh of this I [Music] do um doing a lot of work with mediums and have several that uh you know the kinds of things that they're reporting highly accurately I mean certainly indicates that this is an approach and the reason you're doing whatever it is that you're doing is part of your evolutionary or learning process maybe Hindus are right and we're going to you know move to Atman or let's have the free will or predestination debate what what do you believe personally I believe it's uh certainly a conundrum and that there seems to be elements of both uh it sound it appears as if that what you're having is um again certain lessons are provided and hopefully you will choose an evolutionary path that will help you and you might not have to come back and do that again uh you certainly when you get into one of the big ones I was talking to one of the main researchers just the other day and of course the instant one that comes up in in both of our backgrounds is why war and sort of the bottom line is because you need it because of the souls that have to evolve that you know pay you know pay for what you did and lives taken and you know bad things done as opposed to as I think we both know there are opportunities for great good in War I mean people do very heroic things that are you know self-sacrificing and things of that nature uh but on the other things very bad things happen too what do you think happens when you die well I can say again I hate to get into this with you know because I don't want to interfere with people's religious beliefs uh I would say the evidence is overwhelming that consciousness continues in some form now the question is what form and I think the biggest issue sort of unresolved does Consciousness survive or does personality survive which are different issues I mean some would say you merge into a greater essence you know generic Consciousness per se having said that we again working with mediums when they report from discarnate people and accurately on you know seem to be aware of what's going on in life and they describe well I was this I was sick I had this happen it's all physical attributes of the person as they existed before um so that has there has to be some connection with personality for them uh to develop that that's a good point the answer I don't have a good answer for which is which uh there are others that I know of I'll mention one medium that I have great confidence is Suzanne gesman I don't know if you know that name at all but I don't okay well uh Suzanne's a medium take hours to get into the whole course there but uh she's also a retired Navy commander who is married to a former Navy captain and she used to be the assistant to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs and in fact when I saw her in 9911 she was with Hugh Shelton and I I saw her give this presentation let see Hugh and I used to be majors at the same time in the same place I said he did a lot better than I did but uh so I said I I noticed that uh you never mentioned his name and as well I've talked to him he just doesn't want to be Associated but uh and Suzanne had never had psych knowingly had psychic experiences or anything like that I think they were sailing off Croatia she and her husband were you know on their own he had a daughter from a previous marriage who had joined the Marines uh was pregnant walking across the T arac and got hit by lightning and killed and so they came back and suzan started working on he say how do I contact Susan it happen to be the Susan the daughter's name as well and U worked on it and is now one of the Premier I mean she now contacts spirits on continuous basis and does it for other people and has one where it merges is she has a group called s Saia reports as a singular entity who is saying they are collection of spirits who are going of collaborating but come forth as a single one now how you wrap your my head around that is you know really difficult but um yeah we became friends over like I say knowing some of the same people she her her book what us the loop back in her first book was the the psych the medium and the doctor and it was about an Gaiman who is and an is the one who hold that fork up that I told you that dropped over that got us interested in PK now how do you interrelate all of those things is I have no idea when you talk about let's let's so we're in the we're in the what happens when you die do you do you do you return to some type of generic Consciousness what do you personally believe that's a good question I'll let you know when I figure it out um I I am personally 100% convinced that Consciousness continues exactly what form that is and all that that that gets in a more difficult uh territory certainly uh again I said I was the president of International Association for near death studies and I know most of those key people and the stories they tell are just um I'll digress into one because there's several but Mary Neil uh is one of those and Mary's a medical doctor uh lives in Wyoming she was in uh Northern Chile kayaking and what's significant about this case are the physical attributes that cannot be denied so they're out it's the last day of their kaying trip and she's the last there's three her her husband who normally went with them did not that day so she's at the trail end and they're going over pretty good you know now she's highly qualified can do cat 3 Cat four no no problem which he does and something happens and where she wants to go is blocked she gets forced to a different direction goes over the waterfall and goes down about 30 ft and is stuck nose down now she's in there and you got your kayak and there's a quick release but because of the water the strength of water come over can't reach that mhm uh the way she gets out of it eventually is her legs break above the knee and it's like bending this way and gets you know they find her she's probably underwater for 35 minutes and and um you the point there is you cannot hold your breath for 35 minutes yeah and so there's no doubt about that she probably physically died and they finally find her body Downstream and bring her back and two guys come out from the shore now again we're in a remote area of Chile and they take her by the the way there some other Miracle things that happen rocks up here and that they take her to the waiting ambulance the point is there are no ambulances in this part of Chile and there's one that happens to be waiting at the road that takes her in um she also talks about uh she was out MET God and those sorts of things but also had an experience where she is given information that no mother wants to hear she has four small children at the time and the information is that your sun will dry at 17 um sure enough turned 17 car zigs and zags and and do in fact she said until a year before that she didn't even tell her husband about this aspect of it uh but here you have you know the physical drowning that must have taken place uh you see the pictures of her no doubt about the legs I mean that was just awful and was crippled for a long time she's an orthopedic surgeon by the way um and still is and so you have that you have these two guys up here who they went back looking for them and aren't there but you have an ambulance that that isn't there that physically does take her to you know the the hospital you have information about events in the future this is why you get into the the question of Free Will versus is it predestined that some would be killed at that point um and this is obviously years before but did what decisions could he have made that might have he might not have been out skateboarding at that time and yet did happen so these are the kind of cases when you say one other guy I will mention is eban Alexander I recommend he wrote proof of heaven uh no relative uh but his case and what's interesting about him this guy was a neurosur surgeon at Harvard uh for 25 years and of course didn't believe in any of this nonsense and the uh the highlights of his case he has ingrain menitis dies well is dying and get Tes taken to his own Hospital uh as and um they recognize him so he is out for a week uh and said knows again there's a neurosurgeon who been teaching neurosurgery Consciousness could not have been there and yet he has a whole thing you can read in his books on what happened to them and all of that a critical issue I mentioned he I didn't not a relative but he was adopted at at Birth turns out that his birth parents married after he was adopted and had more children so he's got physical while he is out wherever this is for this week he has an escort of this female butterfly who takes him around and escorts him through higher Realms and made it gets into very complex thing one of the reasons you believe in you know continuation and you know the complexity of the Universe um so he revives and comes back now he's never met the birth parents had never wanted to meet but he's now meets them and finds out that this sister whom he has never met and he now sees pictures of her that you can see where this is going that's the guide whoa yeah do you have contact with these people oh yeah all the time but I mean there are so many of you I just picked a couple of the really you know where it gets Beyond well again what suzan uses Noe called no other explanation wow what what do you think about manifestation about what manifestation manifesting manif manifesting things into existence uh do you believe in that can you be a bit more specific about physical things developing things in the future um developing things in the fut done this kind of as a occupation um yeah and they talk about manifesting your life and that as opposed to physical apports that are appearing and and things that precipitate into physical reality I've not heard about anything that comes into physical reality oh yeah can you give me an example yeah uh my uh my tablemate at Cen JC was a Pakistani I chose to have a foreign student as and uh we got off into some of these things and uh hope I got the case right but anyway uh not sure what the relative senior relative older Rel that he had said that um where he lived every night he'd wake up in the morning and there would be money on the sill by the way his his father must been grandfather had a VC you know had fought for the brother actually VC I mean wow that's level here yeah yeah and uh but anyway said that uh yeah they would wake up every morning it wasn't a big amount just small amount of money would be there and then told somebody about it stopped but where it came from how it got there and now if you want well we can get into thing but what happened with us in Mongolia had specific examples of that I've got them in the door first one we were meeting with Shaman bold um and this is up near the Siberian border we're chasing the reindeer Shaman here but anyway went in and we did a ceremony and Victoria and I were the only two foreigners there had a few people local in familiar with the Mongolian gar small I forget how many were there but he's doing his ceremony and all of a sudden we hear this and the thing goes rolling across the floor uh so I picked it up and uh when I got home sometime later I I took it down to H's Place H put and they said it's a techtite didn't know a techtite is formed by the ejecta from a meteor hit in the ground relatively rare not rare not Diamond rare but relatively rare what got my impression most is I this thing happens you says oh you should keep it and and I'm sure and it's the local people going oh wow you know looking at like they've never seen this so it's it's not part of his stick if you will and again it's kind of like the the voodoo uh folks these are people who the poverty level look up to dirt so the idea that he's pocketing these things and could he pocked it and dropped it yeah did he I don't think there's any chance that that happened so where where did it come from more spectacular number of uh nights later we had been out forget how many night it was the eighth night and we had with these little you know popup tents that we were using Victoria and I had one and and and of course there's just room enough for the two sleeping pads or sitting but the point is every morning you turn it upside down and shake it just to shake the dirt out it's that light and we've done that for eight nights now wake up the next morning and between our pads is a 50 P Australian coin have no idea now remember we're near Siberia and this 50 pen a strali and coin is lying between our bed so those are the firsthand kinds of things say firsthand experiences I mean what what do you what's that conversation like when you wake up and there's 50 Australian Co where did this come from yeah yeah and there's only we had the the driver we had a local guy the guy and the driver I mean that they slipped it in the middle of the night probability approaches zero yeah so how yeah how do you explain but I just say I do have that and I keep it in the safe because these things have a habit of Disappearing uh it's like when I showed it to hell I mean I physically carried it down there I'm not going to mail these things around mhm like too many people say oh lost in the mail or something but how do you explain this stuff um don't know I mean you have to be thinking about this all the time all these things that you've witnessed that you've heard that you've experienced I mean it's it's just in the couple hours we've been talking there's dozens how do you sleep at night pretty well most of the time yeah have you manifested anything have you tried to oh try to ort now why not but these things happen uh I say these things sort of well my main take on it is I don't consider myself psychic per se but a lot of these things happen around me seem to be more of a catalyst than uh one just have experienced a lot of them a lot of strange things have happened mhhm back to Consciousness do you think we're all tapped into one kind of fabric oh yeah well my friend Larry dossi wrote the book on that uh I don't if you know Larry or not but he's again MD one of the ones for our our paths cross in a number of areas but he was actually a medical doctor with the 101st Airborne in Vietnam we had you know comfortable stories there but uh yeah you can read his stories um yeah everything is connected let's move back we don't always do the best to uh you know sometimes when they say you know what you do hurts you and that sort of looked like it's really true let's move back into some of your career let's move back how did you get connected with Robert Bigalow oh well the first time I met him was just a handshake sort of thing um John Mack and Dave Pritchard John Mac is do you know John I do not oh in UFO circles that's an automatic uh John was poer Prize winner uh medical doctor at Harvard University whole story worth knowing um and he had a group studying uh abduction Cas she's best known in fact his book is called abduction Dave Pritchard was an optical physicist again Premier level and uh they held a conference at MIT an interesting thing they might have to come back to is when we arrived at the conference I was one of the speakers and was talking about the relationship between UFOs and near-death experiences and um we all had to sign a statement that we understood it was at MIT not by MIT and you fast forward to where I just came from Stanford and they were very supportive of Gary Nolan's thing at Stanford I think that's hugely significant Harvard also has Obby lobe whom I met there at uh Stanford as well and he's the has the astronomy department at Harvard and is they now have the Galileo project that uh studies that and so the point is from an Institutional perspective they have shifted in 30 from years like don't mention our name to you know yeah we can support this uh so for Bob I just briefly met him there what a did not know at that time is that his son had just died like within the last 30 days at that juncture fast forward maybe a couple of years or something I've got a group at uh at my house I was living in Santa Fe and Hal put off was there I think ja ble and and some other I forget all you know what the whole grp group was and it was over the weekend and talking about this was kind of a a follow on to the advanced theoretical physics project we we did keep in touch even after I retired and out of the blue it's Sunday morning and folks are getting ready to go to Albuquerque to catch their flights and the phone rings and it's I I'm about Bigalow I've heard about you uh you got any project projects that' be of interest and U the answer the short answer then was yes we had another one some guy that he funded independently and a short time after that he came back and he was um he said he wanted to create an Institute which became nids and at the time we were uh the Santa Fe Institute was there which was primar in chaos theory and you had Murray gilmon who's the Nobel physicist and on the board there were people I knew from MIT but you know kind of at that level of Science and they were the premier uh Institute in physic by the way if you this is another one that crosses over you read The Lost World we're talking about Michael Kon uh you see a lot of people in that book are the ones from Santa because it's based on uh it was Jurassic Park was based on uh Chaos Theory as well as encapsulation of DNA Etc um so Lano had can made it clear they didn't want to push non-lethal weapons and in the meantime I worked with the Council on Foreign Relations and The Joint nonlethal weapons director was being developed as a direct response to that that's kind of a Side Story So I was going the the system there was very age sensitive uh so it was in the 60s at the time and so uh retiring was a a pretty good option and then uh from that he developed nids and I was the first one there and then helped develop the the whole board and but it was one the serendipitous out of the blue first contacts if you will yeah you can't plan these things what kind of stuff were you guys studying at uh Skinwalker oh no Skinwalker is a actually a subset of nids down okay so I don't know which one you want to looking at the ranch or the let's look at the overall big picture okay nids was formed to study two specific things one was a continuation of Consciousness and the other was UFOs and I had suggested to Bob unsuccessfully that you ought not be developing you know subset organizations and you know first thing he's an engineer by trade person he draws the box and says we got this and you got UFOs then you got cattle mutilations and you got abduction you know right to the board my suggestion was not to do that and that form follows function let's correct data and see where it goes and create an organal organizational structure based on the data and the kinds of things that that we're receiving um put together no doubt a world class uh board uh yeah one you wouldn't recogn you know Ted Rockwell I doubt that he he was Rick over's technical director uh well but very interested in in these phenomena and that Edgar Mitchell was on Jack Schmidt from Apollo 17 um yeah can't remember all them hell k I think was kid green is the first uh the president of the board Marty pill should come I brought several from Los Alamos one of the key ones was Dean Jud um he is key Dean is particularly key in where these things again cross over uh Dean had been the chief scientist for SDI more important well as importantly after he did that do you know what an nio is the National Intelligence officer yes okay now this is back before the dni is created so the organizational structure the CIA had two acts the director of CIA was the director of CIA and the director of Central Intelligence which is different and so so as the under the IC he created the IC staff because you can't go to the president and say CIA thinks this but Dia thinks that you've got to come in with an integrated position so these were the guys who had the national position on any given topic now most of them are Geographic you got guys for Asia for Europe or you know Middle East Etc but there was one for technology for Science and techn and that was Dean Jud my point there is uh now Dean and I knew each other extraordinarily well I me we travel together I I brought him on a board for uh at Socom and whatnot and he's working he's willing to work with uh with Bob now did not want his name out there he used a different name the public he definitely did not know anything about any integral you know ongoing program in there remember he's the guy who's got to go to the president and say you know here's what we know on all issues in space and and whatnot didn't know that so he's a another example um yeah there was kind of a who's who in science and so put the board together and um we initially one of the first big is we actually had a conference on the life after death research had about 30 or 40 folks uh present for that and uh then of course the UFOs were coming along then out of the blue kind of came along Terry and the uh you know exposure to the ranch by the way it was never Skinwalker Ranch while nids had it I mean that's a name that came along after and has attack we just call it like the ranch um and um um yeah that it was an opportunity that just emerged and it got to be soate because of the number and complexity of the events that were happening and then we we heard Terry's story and Frankie believe him think he straight up and very honest and bad things happening to his family know why he sold I mean you can't blame him for that and uh it was taking a lot of heat in the area and so Bob just decided to buy the ranch and then that kind of became a focal laboratory if you will you a living lab and we [Music] started studying and going up there I said I was the one who spent the the first night I was with him the day he bought the ranch and spent the night there and nothing it it does seem and one of the questions that comes up is that certain people uh seem to be focal points for some of this and have more of the mystical uh experiences uh than others I didn't there was one of our group that's pretty well known but uh he seemed to be more sensitive and have strange things around him and I have a question when I interviewed Brandon Fugal he said that Bigalow would not share any research or information that was discovered at the ranch why would he not do that that's Bob that's just him yeah well one of the things that I have talked to and feel disappointed one of the things we did initially is create a pretty significant library and there were a number of folks uh they came forward and um you know were were able to buy or collect information people had private collections by the way a guy you haven't heard of that's significant here is Dave marlor and he's at U he lives in Albuquerque and has set up a a major foundation and is collecting and has had I think got relationships with the University of New Mexico to protect this equipment and one of the things they're doing is overtly looking for folks who have private Collections and bringing it together uh Jeff kle has done that at Rice as well um but you Bob was just one old stuff he can be very very private in many areas what's the connection between the continuation of Consciousness and UFOs the UFOs who got to be a a piece ofous piece of the Consciousness puzzle yeah said you've had now as you know particularly from jacqu these go back Millenia reports of some in but you know where you have all of these significant you know interactions and with UFOs that's relatively near New wrinkle to uh interaction with other forms of non-sentient life or non-human sentient life how do you how where what kind of experiments do you do or research do you do when it comes to the continuation of Consciousness how do you study that I'm not ready to discuss that right now because I think it's coming okay I will tell you that's uh to be announced but actually have a zoom session on that on Sunday all right Roger that but uh huge it um and one of the problems that you have is if we're right unconsciousness arriving and the complexity and remember the PSP for cognitive San phenomen how do you get ahead of that when it knows what you're going to do before you do it mhm and determines what result adult you're going to get how long did you guys study that noon tomorrow I don't no I mean with with with under nids uh to soon this is literally evolving as we okay yeah I mean this is you know where I think it's headed and uh there's too many loose pieces right now and don't want to uh risk upsetting any of those okay when it comes to some of these crash retrievals you know there's a big disclosure thing happening the first Hearing in Congress was last year I think they've had another one since then what do what do you think of all this stuff you know there's so many different camps in this well I'm I'm in a firm maybe uh I had come down again against Roswell uh having said that until grush came forward and you'll the weaponized thing that's one of the things they were talking about with me there has it changed cuz I was a kind of a firm no now Roswell happened no doubt about that my position was I'm pretty sure it was ours and uh yeah had the details to kind of support that um and from multiple sources um conversely after grush came forward and again I know those key players as well l a friend Chris melon did you know Jim sovan that's the name you want to know um well he's public now I wouldn't have said anything but he you he was the executive officer director of CIA and an abductee where he'd had personal that's it was one of I can say when these didn't get convoluted I met a conference or actually a training session at uh um's the name but anyway they go around the room you know who are you blah blah blah and I mentioned my name he it's his and went on break and he says are you John Alexander and yeah what says oh he says well I heard about you and then mentions he's ex very senior Cia and we go to lunch and he tells us about the experience where he's living in Northern Virginia and he wakes up and he's he and his wife are outside and I have no idea how they got there and there had been little beings in the room with the them and how do we get outside and then there's physical stuff that happened and all that and he's one that has come and said believe grush now not what he told me before uh talked to Chris melan about it and he's the problem is the data never all fit um I told you some of the pieces before guys like if grush is right my take is this is absolutely illegal what has been going on I think I know now how it was potentially funded and it's not what conventional wisdom has um one of the things we didn't mention and you hear all the time Ben particular the Skunk Works which she you got a Skunk Works patch over there I knew Ben rich and we talked about this we had meetings on this Ben when I was with him had a shopping list I'll give you the name because uh when I was at the soul conference I was standing in line and this guy talks to me and said where are you from he said he's from the skunk work he just retired from the skunk work oh that's interesting so he said turns out they have a list and I asked unfortunately the guy has a transition um but uh but Sheffield uh was a guy that Ben gave me and said Ben had a shopping list you know I want the propulsion system I want the cloaking system I want Da and looked out and and this runs very counter to a lot of the popular literature and I believe we had more than one discussion on this uh could he have lied to me possible I think I mentioned before we knew Edward Teller and had gone when we were doing ATP the advanced theoretical physics one of our suppositions was if five people are in the loop in Roswell teller's one of them and the reason is that remember is going to he is the guy who is involved with the most energy that is known to mankind at that time nuclear fusion right had him over for dinner and actually brought these topics up and he didn't dismiss it he just said well I think they're looking the wrong open the thing and he just want to talked about Trinity and how you know people knew and most people didn't and all that but no indication of that by the way he liked the cash Landrum case that I told you about and that's because of the radiation and we understand that sort of CAS um yeah so like I said the pieces just never all fit I am like probably you and most of America now waiting say okay now one of my problems is that as I said well I actually didn't mention this when I was doing these briefings on ATP in addition I I had mentioned Star Wars I had met with the director or deputy director of all those three-letter agencies now if you have a crashed retrieval program you got to have help lot of people you mean you think about see my approach to all of this has been okay it's real how would I organize to do that and the numbers get you meaning how many people do you have to have that are ready to go on a moment's notice you go to any contingency plan where you have a global contingency because that's what it would have to be right mhm uh all over the globe any place you maybe you're talking about inter Rel international relations and all then you're talking adding the aison officers or anybody might go out and collect and etc etc the numbers make no sense and I we'll tell you the director of one of those three-letter agencies were having the briefing I was there if somebody else was with me it may have been just burn cuz this is one where generals tuck into generals that allowed to do it and um so he goes a we don't do that there's no requirement if you understand how the intelligence Community is driven by requirements they collect against specific targets that b tell you about the ones I saw so the point is here is a guy who's now the head of one of those freeletter agencies who has personally seen what he described his UFOs and says still agency not involved now the question comes up were all these people lying to me I frankly doubt it there's just too many MH but I can't the flip side is you know believe and that this tiny tiny subset does have it so I'm like I say I'm waiting for the shoot a drop you and everybody else but um you know it do ETS have the technology do we have the technology how do we know what's ours how do we know what not what the technology uh one thing almost everybody agree even those the Believers say haven't been able to crack it in reality and my example is if an F-35 crashed in the Amazon and the Karina Cory picked it up you'd probably have better Spears you know but you wouldn't understand flying and stealth and all of that and that seems to be I mean almost in in the rumors it come back and just say don't understand now there are those who say no no we've been flying it for a long time and I think that's [ __ ] and the reason is if you had the technology and could fly it the issue is not little widgets flying it's about understanding technology that's fundamentally different you can make the Middle East irrelevant and um in fact in one of my books I wrote to that I write little vignettes what would happen and it was that Z point energy source is discovered and it changes the geopolitics of the world which it would and so that you would take this and go make a little widget to fly inconsequential compared to understand now we also looked at what would it take if you did understand such an energy and our best guess is you know at least two probably three decades before you could inculcate that and you can see examples of that right now with electric cars because you're talking about him but you know the big question of okay where are recharging mechanisms and all that to put in that infrastructure takes decades uh so you would get started well ahead of time so I think the idea that we've had it and sequest and that that the other flip side is usually well the the Oil Barons and all that would would just bury it because they want to keep there as going I say no they would own it they would just go out and buy the we have the concentration of wealth as we do in the US right now now the the people with money would just you know invest in that and and buy it there's no need to be afraid yeah that is a good point let's talk about some of these abductions I'm sure you've looked into some of the abductions okay what are some of the abductions that that really stand out to you that you find to be credible well again I had mentioned before John Mack and he was the the premier guy then abduction phenomena and John was much more circumspect than most people realize um again little graay eyes from Z reticul picking people up in that the converse is the one that I mentioned before here's the guy who well it's interesting he um becomes the executive officer of the CIA he's literally in charge of counterterrorism for the us for a while who has to sleep with the light on and like I say I put Jim down and I know his wife too highly highly credible people and you know of course they can't answer what happened other than they're sleeping in the room and they end up outside and there's no doors to get there and and things of that nature um again I think we're back to complexity and you know well Whitley straber is a good friend we've talked about that you know Whitley you know his cases stuff that happened in New York he's the one who had come up with the whole anal probe kinds of things I I don't think that the issue is in hybred children and fighting is well K if you're fighting ET that's total [ __ ] um because if ET understands physics and can get across the universe and get here they also understand biology and I don't need humans to make new humans and I don't even need life humans if I can collect we've seen this now with the DNA you know alive and what I've said is ET says uh no to Freer range humans you know what they would do is if it were adversarial uh is just wipe out the people and you know create their own uh you know it'd be a biological attack I forgot to mention to you that you don't realize and I just learned this this morning on the internet that you're talking to a zombie who is controlled by evich chees that's literally on the internet today I'm a zombie and so um yeah this stuff gets pretty wild and again damn issues of complexity do these events happen oh absolutely happen but having said that again you get back to the interactions of the humans and sent nonhumans we've been having abductions you remember Rip Van Winkle and there there's one that's in the Quran that's and this notion of going to sleep or bilocation and has been around forever and not necessarily that some ET snatch them up and and move them there why does it come are there um they call it cloak memories and you know changing it to make people think that it's something else see one of the things I mentioned earlier in the um cash Landrum case helicopters flying around absolutely weren't there and have looked at that and said but can I make you think of it there can we do thought projection so that you know that these things are being projected so the recipients are this they're reporting what they actually see but that's because something that's being implanted directly into the brain scary thing if you watched in the news in the last couple of weeks them talking about Chinese working on thought control I have I actually you can I've read about that what do you think about that do you think that's a possibility have to describe it thought projection oh parts of it are absolutely real no no we can this is an area that I don't know if it's still classified or not but um there are project there are way to project certain that are very praic comp complex but prosaic um how much you can do I know but we're talking if if Cas androme is a the you know UFO is there physical we know from a physical effect something was physically there but can implant thoughts that are terribly complex I it's not just but it's you know certain types of helicopters are flying around this thing we know for sure they were not uh that talks to a degree of Technology that's well beyond certainly anything I've ever heard of or even been uh sort of being close to uh by the way related I was giving uh a briefing on non-lethal weapons to the uh director of science or director of research at CIA headquarters and never met the whole thing of thought control has been you know in the uh CT Arena and um you know he went off into that and it was uh you know I don't know if people know what happened under the church committee but that's the whole LS thing and and that and said no way in hell are we touching something like that and people would I don't think you play your beter agency when you do that if you get caught playing with those kinds of Technologies now having said that of course they this recent stuff has been associated with China and certainly don't have the same moral limitations that that we might on that but the implications of where that goes is just really really horrendous I mean how I I don't I mean obviously they would have to tap into some type of a Consciousness you know obviously they would have to tap into some type of Consciousness I mean we're talking about well depend how you're defining Consciousness now see you're back to I think there's a significant difference between the brain and the mind mhm so what we're really talking about here is being able to manipulate the mind and what we know from like fmri for instance yeah you can do that that works both ways you can also read the Mind based on certain physical responses um yeah i' argued in some I guess what I'm saying is if you're able to have how do I explain this if you're able to let's talk about the cell sample you your cells were hooked up to the polygraph machine and they were able to pick up on your emotional algorithm right is would there be a way to reverse that to where the cells can manipulate the mind yeah you're very close to something that Bert and I were discussing you remember when Reagan was shot MH and one of the things that came off everybody attributed to ghouls by trying to collect bandages and all of that and we're in a highly speculative area here now but it was can I take this sample and R it back to where you can influence the actual organism I mean you talking The Manchurian Candidate at a whole different degree here but uh the concern I we literally had discussions about you know who's controlling all of these physical samples that are coming from the president and could you do this again and besides that this gets used highly speculative but thought about last thing inner species Communications yeah let's talk about it okay which species the Dolphins oh the Dolphin Research yeah uh well we did that the Dolphin Research was actually doing interaction stuff with the whales uh again we're interacting a lot closer than we are with humpback whales and whatnot and so that great they knew exactly where we were I mean and the ability to do that it wasn't exactly communication but they were we were in a you know rigid rubber 30 uh 10 m boat I mean could have F that in the heartbeat and and yet we're having interactions at inches from that but uh now there's several applications there and this is going to go off into the bledo story as well um we had done a guy I had mentioned was Ted Rockwell he's the the one who had been with u Rick over a technical director very interested in these area he he had funded this and um what we did was we're dating with two aspects one was dolphins in the open ocean we did a week uh this was uh off of the Bahamas went into North End signed in and uping north of there and spent a week out there and we had the the protocols that we set up was for very practical reasons there would be no physical contact unless they initiated it and the app is there suspect to human uh infections and things of of that nature but again these are pods in the open ocean and they vary in size and what happens normally is in the the morning they will break up and go hunting and come back together late in the day and they can run from twos and that to hundreds we've seen some of that so we were working actually an ex-wife was the one who was psychic on this and would have interaction if they came we would get in the Water by the way being if you dive with them up but that's just amazing I mean you've got these things hundreds of pounds and they're you know inches of away from you cuz they would come to us mhm while you're in the water are these wild yeah okay yeah yeah we're talking open ocean and um anyway so we started into some of the psychic things and would say think they're coming they're long ways off and there's one in particular where we're trying to communicate and have have them do certain things and you'd see them come rolling in and then we were um boat anyway we're uh dream two and uh had a small uh raft that were Towing behind it and to bring them in and you'd see them we saw them coming across and had them again the telepathic instruction was to make a major shift and to go back out and circle around and come back in and had them respond to it mhm uh now a lot of the time we would get in the water we keep the fins and goggles there see if you had to get the water fast uh to you know get their attention and say and they would say and play with you uh if we when we did that but this is one trying to give telepathic Communications and have them do it now there's another set of experiments but these were in captivity and they did this I forget where they were but um they were in tanks and it put up signs roughly north south east and west and uh there's another guy who deserve credit here of Scott Jones has that name popped up at all no it has Antiquity uh one who's key in in many of these areas and had become uh ex-navy pilot uh a lot of strange stuff from Korea had experiences and then got involved in these areas and became uh assistant Claver and pel was the senator who became quite interested anyway Scott set this up and um so what they did is he made a number of uh cards with sets of instructions and then they put them in the envelope and numbered the envelopes but did not know what instruction is in what envelope and so there would be things like uh go to North Circle counterclockwise twice go to East Etc and they did that and had five out of five they had six five out of five does that and then he would read the instruction and send the message he would do it sixth one uh picks up no she does not know what's in the envelope right dolphin starts a routine and opens it up and they had done the rout routine before they'd even you know seen it wow um yeah um I knew John Lily and you may know Lily on dolphins because he had done a lot of the basic research on that he also warns you that you got to be careful of it because they can get aggressive M particularly with women time yeah there the sexual component to it but um yeah where where I mentioned earlier this is Chris bledo case and we can talk about the whole thing but he's one who's having interaction with orbs on a continuous basis starts with an amazing case but uh I wrote uh forward to his book UFO of God it appears as if this is some form of communication that we don't understand but he has a telepathic communication with them now one of the things that they did and I understand they've now just recently replicated but hasn't aired there was the program called Beyond Skinwalker Ranch has set on Chris and I'm in in that but near the end what they do I mean this really blew them away uh uh David uh broad Broadwell who was orchestrating this got a hold of a guy and they have a EEG helmet and so they've got Chris outside and when they show it in the film what's really effective is Chris is there he's pointing to orbs that are moving around they're photographing the orbs so that they see that so you got him in the poem and the third one is actually the reading from his EEG and what you see is a profound shift to something that looks like a Zen meditator with 30 years experience or something that but the brain waves just shift tremendously when he's again doing this communication with the orbs I said the problem at the moment is we have yet to figure out the Rosetta Stone to where we can understand what this mean and getting back to Brandon you know he also says that in Skinwalker Ranch he thinks that the issue is attempt at communication we just don't understand it what kind of communication is bledo having with these orbs oh calls them and sees them almost daily he calls them and they come in yeah I get emails I haven't had email for a week or two but Norm almost every week here if the weather's good he goes out and uh yeah they respond and do you think he would be interested in an interview yeah he would no problem with that one Chris blood so yeah Roger that we talk about that but the the case is it's another one the complexity of that case is absolutely amazing and that it's turned into a positive thing in fact I just sent him on I think it was Tuesday uh was the uh 16th or 17th year since his first major event happened and I sent him a note said happy anniversary because it was you know he has a fabulous family and all been involved but they took a lot of heat yeah uh muon uh you know why they existed uh they they had a video up on it's just terrible what the what they did with them on the initial reporting and of course the local community and the make it matters worse his family come very fundamentalist Christian and does not want to hear that and um yeah but uh we can talk about the the case itself is interesting because is one where I had this is one I had a personal experience with it uh but I'm absolutely convinced of the reality mostly because of what happened to me mean most of these things I've talked about or things I've observed or you know been around this is one that it's me y yeah man this is a lot to think about this is a lot to think about I I do one other thing came to mind that I would like to ask you about and that is the underground ET bases lots of people talk about it I don't know I don't know I don't know what to believe well tell me more of what the question is well you know what what really popped on my radar is you know I've always heard about them they that the these Tic Tacs UFOs come out of the ocean they come out of the ground you know and some people think that they've been here all along then when I was researching Joe mcmonagle I found kind of a mini documentary that talks about these remote viewers that remote viewed underground bases uh one being in Mount Hayes Alaska yeah that's that's angle what do you know about this stuff mostly what you do and the probability of it being significant and physical reality I think is pretty slim um but you're back to what do you mean by UFO and uh you see where do they come from from if it's an interdimensional thing you know then you don't have a problem of that and you also don't have a problem of physical space of where are they now having said that as if it sounds highly negative conversely again if you're talking this finish over to the near death Arena and the mediums and they talk about no the spirit world that very very close to us and aware of what we're doing and interacting and it's you know physically right here immediately adjacent um it gets you away from a lot of the problems of like I say time and distance and things of that nature but it's you worth considering certainly it um so but that gets you away from necessarily that there's a fixed base that's there that's in three-dimensional reality As We Know It uh is this in something that has other dimensions and so it's not physically taking up space and you got to get there because we know where Mount Hayes is and you know having said that have heard heard for a long time you know about UFOs flying into and out of mountains and and maces it's much rarer than typical UFO story but certainly there you must remember something I haven't hit one of my first questions always is what do you mean by a UFO and the problem is I got a little balls of light got hard craft miles across literally and thousands and thousands of variations in between MH which in my view argues strongly against oh by the way the ET hypothesis that you know putting it together if on the other hand you say this is a metal construct and you're seeing different things again you're back to Consciousness that certainly makes more sense mhm I also second slide or I think usually a second slide that I always use is when I talk on any of these topics and it's got I know all of them but it's got near death experience afterdeath uh psychokinesis inter species communication uh UFOs and this and all that said even cryptozoology and say yeah these are all related and Consciousness is the key component problem is we tend to isolate and study in little stove pipes and I have thing that says look I give lectures the UFO community and near-death experiences uh shamans around the world and remote viewers and it is changing but for the most part it's those are as if isolated and you know one of the first things you run into is what are your parameters in near death you what do you mean by being close to death because most of the cases where you have in you have no idea one of the things we ought to talk about separately of the few cases where the individual is entirely instrumented so you know that they're you but even the case that I mentioned Mary I mean all we have are the the stories after the facts and you have to infer that death had occurred you have to infer that she had some ways of getting communication and informance information about what would happen years later mhm we do know that piece of it happened but you're a lot of inference as to how all of that occurred well hope you have a good zoom call so but well John um I'm not going to lie my brain is tapped out after talking to you for 6 hours and uh I've got a lot to think about but you know I would like to say thank you very much for coming on the show and and sharing everything from your Vietnam experience your childhood and as much as we've covered up until this point and and and uh I just want to say it was an honor to have you and and thank you for making the trip okay I hope to see you [Music] again here's the situation you've got China Russia Ukraine the border the banks seem to be collapsing plus the Chinese just just negotiated with Iran Saudi Arabia and Brazil to drop the US dollar and most Americans including myself feel that we're in a recession right now but despite all the evidence I can't tell you what's going to happen for sure nobody can yet when it comes to your money you should understand what's at stake that's why I partnered with gold Co to possibly help at times like this go to Shan likes gold.com or call 855 936 gold to get your free gold and silver kit the kit shows you how to defend your money with precious metals and how listeners of the show could get up to $10,000 in bonus silver go to shaikes gold.com or call 855 936 gold to get your free gold and silver kit I can't predict the future but I can certainly prepare for it so go to shaikes gold.com or call 855 936 gold now performance may vary consult with your tax attorney or Financial professional before making an investment decision hey everybody I'm Shawn Ryan click here to subscribe to the Sha Ryan Show YouTube channel for the hottest and most compelling interviews that you will not see anywhere else I've also made a playlist of all the previous SRS episodes so they're easy to find you can find that right here