arriving at Athens is New International Airport there's no obvious sign that Greece is in dire straits it all looks pretty normal but 10 years after joining the Euro this country is effectively bankrupt and the government has put the airport up for sale having been to Greece for 20 years since I came as a government minister and Athens just had an old-fashioned airport in those days at a different location from this beautiful new one and Greece had its own currency the drachma since then the country's been through an economic prune when borrowing was cheap and the government and the people went on a spending binge now have come the years of bust and I believe that Greece's crisis is due to having joined the euro but will the Greeks agree with me I want to find out whether this crisis has shaken their faith in the single currency Prime Minister will they take my advice and get out and so recover competitiveness with a free floating drachma there why if I take out my wallet I'm not in any way trying to corrupt you do you want the Euro or the draft locked into the Euro the Greeks are facing drastic austerity measures measures that some of them believe are being imposed by Germany later I'll go to meet the German taxpayers were contributing to Greece's mammoth bailout but Morgan to be initiative feared a secretly buyout killed become its own money and abideth Marvin will a Dallas couple you've probably seen the white Greek papers have been depicting you hadn't feel about this is this the moment that the eurozone becomes more United or will it be pulled apart it's only when you take a walk through the streets of Athens that you get a sense of a situation that this country's in I can't believe that I'm in Europe in 2012 it's hard to imagine how such a small nation of 11 million people could have accumulated a national debt equivalent to 31,000 euros a man woman and child Athens where's the face of recession here's a shopping complex with every business closed bar one which is selling its goods at a 50% discount graffiti is universal here a bank has been burnt out everywhere are signs of dereliction a quarter of the shops have closed since Greece's crisis first took hold four years ago and sites like this have become commonplace here at this one location 800 people hue each afternoon for their daily rations this Q is for migrants who were the first to suffer from the crisis 30 yards away I see preparations for further handouts this time for Greek people this is a new phenomenon in a country where family support is normally so strong their numbers which are growing everyday have risen to 20,000 in Athens alone civil servant Dimitra knew she now runs the food distribution for this part of Athens how many people will you be feeding here today 1250 people daily that's amazing yes the number has been going up the last months especially because of the crisis I understand that a few years ago you were I think a civil servant working on the Olympic Games even today you personally I've gone in quite a short period of time for managing wealth to managing property on European projects from Alicia's breakthrough projects two slices of bread for poor people do you find that the people are coming here to receive the food suffer a real problem with their dignity with their lost ages yes these people feel it and it's very normal they feel very embarrassed we have to find a way to survive with dignity we were not experienced to this kind of poverty to start counting the slices of the bread they're scenes that I've witnessed here remind me of those black-and-white photographs of the American Great Depression of the 1930s the fact that it's happening in 21st century Europe seems to me incredible how did all this come about the launch of the euro is the dawn of a new age according to the European Central Bank as 12 countries take the plunge the euro was introduced on New Year's Day 2002 joining it was supposed to help weak economies like Greece catch up with their richer eurozone partners I've come to pay my respects at this shrine to the track Greece's last national currency it gave up the right to print its own money in favor of joining a broader European dream in my view a weak economy like Greece should never have shared the same currency with Germany the economic powerhouse of Europe the weak drachma made it easy to export greek tomatoes and olives but being part of the stronger euro has made Greece uncompetitive and sucked in manufactured imports and this is just the sort of manufactured import that flooded into Greece wanted to join the Europe the Greeks went on a buying spree of German luxury cars cars like the Porsche Cayenne this car in the Euro were launched at the same year and their stories are intertwined produced by the technological wizardry of Germany the middle classes of non-industrial Greece aspired to own it and this car turned into the symbol of German manufacturing might and the Greek economic bubble to help me to understand just what happened in Greece after it join the Euro I've arranged an appointment with a man who's taken a special interest in the origin of Greece's debt crisis economists and hedge fund manager yes on monopolists tell me a lot of people think that the figures to enable Greece to join the euro were rigged you know the figures on the deficit and so on is that true where the figures Ric common acknowledgement that they were rigged everybody in in the European Commission also knew it but again who is joining was a political project back then rather in a purely economic project describe to me those boom years after Greece's joined the euro around the time of the Olympics what was it like forget all these fancy villas springing up you had huge amounts of spending in luxury goods people taking weekend trips to Paris rather than going to their local village a huge sense of you know just general sense of euphoria everybody was happy going out Greece ham had won the football the Euro where the Olympics it was like a dream come true people were allowed to have a lifestyle that they hadn't enjoyed previously at one point in time in 2010 there were 8 billion of car loans in Greece I believe I was three and a half percent of GDP compared to zero ten ten years ago Wood creaks appear down to buy as many cars like this as they did under the Europe oh absolutely not during the eighties the cars on the streets here were predominantly French Italian and Japanese and you know these luxury cars are German cars reputation was not worth the money I too expensive the strong exchange rate that Greeks had but by being in the Euro helped them but also more importantly their availability of cheap credit to finance these purchases made all these imports of cars come to prison Griese now had access to the eurozone's no interest rates in just six years Greece's deficit with Germany went from under three billion euros to over eight billion the great Greek gyro boom ended abruptly in 2008 when the global economy crashed since then Greece has plunged into one of the most drastic recessions in recent international history i've been trawling the internet to see how many luxury cars of a sale and the answer is thousands including hundreds of Porsche Cayennes and there's one here being sold by Doris of pireas Doris laetus who is electrician's business isn't faring too well in the current economic climate has had the car on the market for seven months neurosis is a lovely car but why did you want to buy one after give us far less me a taxi Masseria we are beginner can I do that with yeah just begun I got I like it no books yourself what is it boy Kenya I hear a boy Africa better faking it though because my core the more you know more about what I almost don't be the policeman that there's any partner the preposition on the producer yes I got women of the belief can you remember how many euros this cost you after speech you'll apologize every well so if you do manage to sell it will you will you make a big loss on the car no sir what do you Barbara but I'll be sounded I'm sorry what now you're not gonna go without a car have you have you acquired a new one nobody knows wonder well what this one here yes ma'am this is just a little bit smaller but more than one but it's a it's a very nice car most of this bottle you do though any ideas why do you do this it's a Mercedes yes sir so even though you've had to get rid of your lovely big German Porsche you end up with a tiny to whom I say yeah I figured that'd be good did you get a 1 here Doris you still have at the moment of Portia although you're selling it you still have a little Mercedes smart car and lots of people would love to be in this position are you in this position because Greece is in the Euro I'll get a callus in the lava to promote our lower politic is in a Libya for deciding what the facts are about you believe us it's a feast day and Doris has invited me to a family dinner prepared by his wife Katerina and his unemployed daughter Eleni although it's a holiday his son and business partner sakis is a wave finishing the job so Davos yes at one time to your electricians business how big was it and now how big is the business but I know it's good then everyone agreeably here the Ottoman therefore many of what you're using you're not totalitarian also by against forever the people's Department a power that is phool makhani capitalists are getting average atomic Alitalia you'll be able to get up from normal society and get that Rapada yeah this collar that must be rose Alania do you lose your choice yes I used my job one and a half year ago I was secretary in shipping and insurance company are you looking for a job yes I'm looking long time but I didn't find it yet now something I'd like to ask you all yeah okay Doris here's a choice for you yes euros yes Oh Dracula's you are which to tuition I prefer Europe of course I gotta do the Morrissey wish they would say Irish map is show that about Monroe Stahr come a crema our Godot Perazzo makalah the caja de la vita è á la de pluie Hsieh ago Stevo vaster bro Toyota stay on Nicky Bernice cannon laughs oh Sh a pillow yes tuskor piece on a pillion our category Mata ki canonical key via here ECT Brassica matura door I'm touched by Doris and his family's attachment to the euro but maybe it's not surprising because interest rates were sky-high while Greece had the drachma like many here this family blamed the politicians for the mess Greece is in but then Doris did very well at a public sector contracts because of Greek families borrowed and spent to excess the Greek government put their profligacy in the shade the results of Greek government expenditure after joining the Euro can be seen all over happens many metro stations receive lavish upgrades and new stations have been opened expanding the network into the suburbs there's also a new electric railway system that rivals anywhere in Europe there's no doubt that new railways and trains like these help the Greek economy and enabled it to modernize the problem was that most of the equipment couldn't be manufactured in Greece so it had to be imported with borrowed money it's no surprise that the carriages engines and signalling equipment was supplied by German companies and the money that countries like Germany and France lent to Greece also went into keeping these state operations going each year the railways alone were losing almost 1 billion euros but Greece's most notorious public expenditure Bonanza was on the 2004 Olympic Games today 8 years after the Olympics all over Athens buildings and facilities lie unused meanwhile Greece is still paying the interest on the 12 billion euros that the games eventually cost Tassos Telugu is an investigative journalist who's written extensively on the financial Fiasco of the Athens Olympics so what I see now is a place that's deserted but obviously that cost billions of euros to build and a lot of money was borrowed as you look back on it now would one regard the Olympics in Greece as their success it was a lot of money spent with as you can see post-olympic used that is equal to nothing nothing yes it's nothing this part is a mirror of society in a country that there is always a lack of investigating the cheaper possibilities there is a lot of corruption and cliental ism where to put our friends to make some money drops to the boiled jobs for the boys of the right party and this of course when the money was cheaper and accessible was easy to do it was easy to manage but it isn't anymore so Tasos let me put a very straight full to you euro or drachma the Greece Europe because my generation was brought up with the dream that we were going to have a currency like that stable currency I mean and the trifle the drachma was the currency in which I was paid when I started working and I had to pay 25% interest for my credit card which I don't like your dream I think has become a nightmare well it's just it's a very straitjacket but I think Greece anyway needs a straitjacket the yachting marinas on the seafront at pireas Athens is port city give another clue to the story of Greece's record-breaking debt taxes the Greeks notoriously failed to pay them since the crisis over a thousand luxury yacht owners have been discovered falsely claiming tax exemptions yes oh it's a lovely marina there's been a lot in the British press about the number of yachts that there are blowing to Greek people apparently rather more than Greek people declaring high incomes to the tax authorities is this true there was a lot of tax evasion in Greece all over the period and all this cash that was generated had to find outlets and these yachts were one of the luxury products were where they went across the economies of the eurozone there are huge differences in cultural attitudes and institutions that to me make them incompatible as partners in a single currency now is this really a cultural thing I mean is it just that Greeks don't trust their institutions or is it just that they're not used to paying taxes well I think it starts from the reverse I Greece has weak institutions and if these weak institutions cannot impose a fair tax system so let's say you were in in the restaurant business or the souvlaki business and your competitor doesn't pay as v80 23% and you do how can you compete on a commodity product like that so you're a forced in some sense so the Greek system isn't corrupt but it's corrupting how good is the Greek state at assessing and collecting taxes there's no cross-checking everything's done manually there's no IT systems this was an uncontrollable monster nobody really knew what was going on I'm getting the impression from you that many of the problems that Greece has encountered it would not have faced if it had kept the drachma so I have to ask you now for Greece's future the drachma or the Euro when we have to choose the Euro because Greece has a weak institutions and a corrupt political system neither it will change if you go back to the drachma and it will give them the access to a printing press to continue the ways of before serve no takers for my tractor's yet even you swans not persuaded by my Euroskeptic views I think that become more competitive the country needs to keep the option of devaluing its own currency whilst not ideal the alternative can be much worse almost every day there's a demonstration against the austerity measures today its scientists from the National Institute of meteorology they're venting their anger against the trio of foreign institutions known as the troika as the European Union the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund their particular ire is reserved for the environment minister george pappas instant ear I've decided to pay a visit to mr. Papakonstantinou hello Minister Michael Portillo what a frivolous EU thank you very much for your time until recently he was the Greek Minister of Finance which was surely the job from hell I was once pretty unpopular when I was a politician people cheered but I lost my seat in parliament but I must say since I've been in Greece I've been shocked by how unpopular politicians are there since we are real feeling against the political class it is impossible for a Greek an active Greek in addition to walk on the streets again really not because it will be attacked but because it it will be very easy for someone to turn around and call them a traitor people are waking after the fact that it was about when the bubble was burst that part of the living standards were not based on solid foundations unfortunately those that are paying from the crisis are also those that did not have a were not responsible for the crisis I was chief security the Treasury trying to control public spending I thought I had things tough but you had to negotiate the austerity package here in Greece I mean tell me how was that feat what were you sleeping at night but you were never faced with the situation whereby you had to take very harsh measures that change people's livelihoods and increase taxes and they ended up increasing unemployment and a very tough negotiation at the end for the biggest bailout package ever with an austerity program attached to it it was not the easiest time as I'm sure you can imagine I don't worry if I take out my wallet I'm not in any way trying to corrupt you the drachma and the euro which is the food I've forgotten what this looks like it was very nice for the class that's not for the future this is the future and I'm surprised you're not waving they British found this will not be our choice either in exchange for rescue packages that eventually mounted to two hundred and forty billion euros about two hundred billion pounds mr. Papakonstantinou and his successors have had to increase taxes make savage cuts in government spending and put many of Greece's national assets up for sale we will follow this road because this is the only road to be able to save the country to get a sense of just how hard these measures are beginning to bite I travel down to the port of Piraeus which like many of Greece's national assets is now up for sale good morning body outside the pyramid shipyard I find unemployed ship preparers keeping a 24-hour vigil demonstrating their opposition to the government's plans to sell their workplace why are you standing here now what's the purpose of standing here stay the public want to stand in the public who don't want to sell it too many companies won't bite to chains that are used from CPS to Container Terminal yeah old cartel Munna how many jobs are they here to shipyard in August 2008 was here six thousand volts enough they solely from 6200 have you still got a job now we have got a job so how much money and what did you use to get what what did they pay some works for 1,500 euro the month yeah some other 2000 the government's worth now to wait as work for 500 or 600 euros de maua sleep the urine is the mentor brought the disparate nations of Europe together their economies were supposed to converge but I suggest that the opposite has happened by many economic indicators Greece has slid back to where it was in 1998 four years before it joined the yeren above the shipyards is one of the hardest hit areas in Greece the suburb of Parma unemployment here has now reached 80% yet welfare cuts and increased health charges are compounding the misery the International Organization doctors of the world recently set up a clinic here good morning dr. Caracas normally this organization would be providing services in sub-saharan Africa we are in the middle of a humanitarian crisis people with no food no access to the health even know house so we have no reason to walk when Africa we have to focus care good morning hello who's this hello Angelina how very nice to see you George flow no I good to see if you went to the hospital now any idea how much a hundred euros maybe just for an examination was it always like this did you always have to pay money in understand your husband is unemployed what what did his job used to be what's his job a carpenter - yeah it will assume here Dalia scholastic you how long has he been unemployed do you and your husband and Angelina have a future in Greece it's only with the help of their parents that Lia and George managed to survive each time the government negotiates another record-breaking bailout the IMF and the European institutions imposed yet more austerity measures on the Greeks it was here in Constitution square that the anger and frustration of Athenian citizens burst forth demonstrators appeared on mass to be back in charge by the police rioters threw paving stones and Molotov cocktails the air was thick with tear gas as the Greek public fought back against austerity these young Greeks resent not only the onerous conditions required to remain in the euro but also that they're being imposed by outsiders some like these rioters blame Germany as Europe's real power broker and Greek business is intensified by traumatic memories of German occupation during World War two but Greeks I've spoken to say they want to stay in the Europe I can't help wondering whether they're truly ready for the political sacrifices will surely follow the financial ones it's clear to me that being in the Euro has led Greece deep into poverty and to seek bailouts and such dependency on others can cause feelings of injury and insult but resentment can cut both ways it's time to talk to the taxpayers who are funding the rescues including the people who built this car in Germany I've come to East Germany transformed since the fall of communism just outside the city of Leipzig is the most advanced car plant in the world this is where Porsche built the Cayenne that doris lapis is trying to sell 90% of the cars here are for export that's good for Germany's balance of payment surplus but bad for the deficits of countries like Greece that imported large numbers of luxury cars advanced technologies got something to do with it of course but Germany also benefits from sharing a currency with countries like Greece these weaker economies pull down the value of the euro which makes German cars relatively cheaper for foreigners to buy whether they're in Greece or anywhere else so you hear say that the Cayenne we will bring that car to the customer as soon as possible because according to PR manager Hina panda laden Porsches biggest markets are now outside Europe it's the European Union the most important market for Porsche know traditionally for number one is the US market and nowadays the second important market is China and so people from China and from Asia they like a specialty you burn Cayenne and these cars for example where they're going to I have to check oh yes that car goes to China I've seen that Greeks like the Cayenne - in fact cars have been Germany's biggest category of export to Greece I joined some of the portal workers and asked them about their Greek eurozone partner who's been giving Germany so much grief in the last few months if I were a Greek person and I say look we need some help we're in some difficulty hearing you Germans are pretty well-off you're pretty rich please help us but what do you say to that the steam as Eastern Illinois wall and facial wounds of assyria and een somewhat sized in Moodle installation site Luanne dispensing of us they apartment hinterland industry is fighting Goliath and double touchdown unpopular chances relationships a weekly season and so now I want to offer you a choice for the future of Germany is the future of Germany the Euro or the deutsche mark the world why human England now will become good and then there's gonna happen soon especially you choose them you can try to miss Tiffany deep within World War I invented religion of Maryland off to Basra Weiland in big small of Indonesia unknown Lars Heinrich and his friends typify the optimism I'm finding here in East Germany Asianet - it's a theme on this because average rhetoric when the oil is it to convert of course these young workers are themselves beneficiaries of a bailout German stuff that was the reunification of Germany more than 20 years ago and it cost far more than the rescue of Greece today it followed the collapse of the former communist regime here in the East since 1990 the German government has invested almost one-and-a-half trillion euros in the economies of cities like Leipzig the Church of st. Nicholas has a unique place in the story of German reunification I've come with economist Gunter Schnabel who has researched the costs of rebuilding the German economy after the collapse of the East after months of peace prayers here huge demonstrations spread into the town centre in 1989 after the service people left church and started together on this career that's mainly of demonstrations started from day to day they grew and people started to walk through the city and around the city on the ring street and this monument commemorates those events was it yes today Germany is a united democratic country but even now West German taxpayers are still transferring money to raise up the East one example of that expenditure is the Leipzig trade fair center opened in 1996 is known as the messer this is the main method building that it's part of the investment which has been done during the 1990s refinance of course for Accenture and money and it's part of the economic success of life it's a very very impressive set of buildings I would say we've come to life sixth annual skills and crafts fair it's a perfect illustration of the emphasis on training that gives Germany its competitive edge from what I can see the local economy is flourishing but making the backward east competitive was achieved at a cost that nearly crippled Germany so after incurring the immense costs of reunification how did Germany become competitive again so the main channel was wire real wage cuts so in the mid-1990s pensions were cut in general Social Security benefits were curtailed and the the austerity and the public sector also was extended to the private sector and therefore as a result real wages in Germany mainly remained constant or even declined so for how long has the average German not seen any increase in his living standard and so on more than 15 years 15 years without any increase in unit extension yes and they have increased in Greece and other southern European countries substantially and Germans don't feel too good about that yes they've broad very large sacrifices and of course we are worried that they have to go on with these sacrifices the Germans decade of austerity has some similarity to what Greece is going through today when the euro is introduced it did little for most Germans living standards I wonder whether come to regret saying our feeder zone to the deutsche mark so vinta I've got here you'll remember these some German these are chim marks and I guess now which do you choose for Germany for the future I choose the euro for the Chairman future or the Belfair in Europe were strongly hinge on a common currency but this needs to be underpinned by the necessary reforms at the fair I run into last Heinrich from the Porsche factory as a younger worker he's benefited from the recent investment in East Germany his father garrard on the other hand lost the steady job he once had and hasn't worked since what is now being asked of Greece it's really not as big an adjustment as was asked of the East German people over the last 20 years I don't fund for them less your license ISM went to a common when the Klien mix of here lies in vain when our deserver become enters finding at the moment mixed-race - Wendy Wendy does Clio our boy vivia RISD cañazo all right vivia despite their obvious frustration with the Greeks the Germans here have all been giving me the same response without exception they've bought into the idea that the euro is part of a future for which they've already made large sacrifices well maybe but it's also a measure of Germany's more sophisticated economy that it could make such changes without the sort of upheavals that Greece is experiencing in the medieval era - German cities prospered because they found themselves at the crossroads of great European trade routes then after World War Two Leipzig found itself in the communist East and Frankfurt in the capitalist West now as I travel between one or the other there's no border to cross but I am exchanging the low slung car factories of leipzig for the skyscrapers of germany is financial capital on the river mine here in this cluster of sleek buildings is the European Central Bank an almost next door their headquarters of comets Bank German financial institutions have been among the largest lenders to the Greek government last year comet's Bank lost 800 million euros on its Greek loans Morgan the bank's chief economist yaagh Kramer believes the roots of the Greek crisis go back 20 years back then the Maastricht Treaty set out the ground rules for a single currency European Community ministers have signed the new treaty committing the 12 member countries to closer economic and political union on paper at least country signing up for the euro had to be tough criteria on budget deficits and government debt with no bailouts for spendthrift governments but no one took any of the rules too seriously how did Germans for example get lured into lending to Greece do you think well I think you have to understand the history of the of the European monetary union we had a non bailout clause in the Maastricht Treaty but the menorah it may rest in peace yeah but nobody believed it from the very beginning therefore everybody thought where we can invest in Greece and if any problem may pop up in the end yeah other countries will bail out Greece this was the underlying belief of all investors not only in Germany but it was put into the euro with Germany I mean was this not not the most extraordinary mistake yeah absolutely and the Bundesbank in public said that Greece is not ripe to enter the European monetary union so does it follow if Greece should not have been in the Europe that it would be best if Greece were now out of the euro yeah absolutely okay I think I think so is that the way forward with Greece on board it's it's it's I think not possible to make a fresh start for for the eurozone I think everybody knows at last I found someone who share some of my sentiments for all the Germans being a bit hard on the Greeks hasn't their thirst for German products contributed to Germany's prosperity there are any politics we have to give them a chance to pick up the economy anymore and they are really on the limit here in the economic powerhouse of Europe I've learned something of their dilemmas facing the Germans they're thought to be very wealthy but after years of Paris training many don't feel rich at all they believe in discipline within the eurozone but they don't want to be thought or authoritarian they feel solidarity with poorer southern Europeans but they don't want to throw good money after bad they're willing to help out but not to be drawn into permanent subsidies Frankfurt may be the financial heart of Germany but the political power still lies in Berlin officially the European institutions make the rules for the euros future but many suspect that the real decisions are made here in Berlin to meet one of the most powerful men in Europe mr. Wolfgang Schauble er doesn't actually normally dress like that but that's the way he's been depicted in the Greek press and his boss angela merkel gets the same treatment wonder has destroyed the feels about that I'm really looking forward to this meeting Wolfgang try blur really is one of the key figures he's the guardian of German monastery orthodoxy and he's the scourge of the Greeks for their profligacy and failure to pay their taxes with Morgan it's bazooka hair minister short repetition danke you've probably seen the way that some of the Greek papers have been depicting you and and indeed the way they've been depicting angler Merkel I mean how do you feel about this it's a big elegantly shown in darts entitlement in the character to a museum on when is now enjoy the British political the British in Sidon and Kartikeya to have a moose atomic label do you really think that with the austerity measures in Greece Greece can ever recover yeah its lavash on as Muslim a starts financing of mingling you owned a small storage truck to deliver form Midway WebSphere care Cuban handle files had a Keeneland under the embed for shelf in that perhaps the Global Initiative self-kindness also a number of European leaders have commented that Greece should never have been in the Europe does it not follow logically that Greece should not be in the Euro today that actually things would be much easier for the Europe if Greece were not a member a brother/sister Sudanese or there some insignia determines a huge balloon clicking an estimate leader overtone the always only the wood of the implant cheapest as we are to overthrow [ __ ] Rell our ideas are also applied to us we clear the overtone in the lag isn't he stopped indicate this always Arkansas to give their lives to to feel that democracy is is a casualty of this crisis or indeed of this system nine the Democrat avert a August I deserve a paisa Paulo Mendes can also and democratic debate this parliamentary the strategy under hours and energy Bundestag the over page the Commission is Christie like human build our own it it's unstable deserve a peasant elements get the scanner repairs Commissioner naturally hits cloud over page integrity on highest the spheres redfish rate nationally superb annotate against Jewish over PA institutes in Olivia : I'm always skeptical in hospitai ministers in DC we also active D element this make most money over that yoga album this is the bezel inner ISM the designers lens Expedia hold others from burly and I'm going to go back to Greece the place where the impact of policies made here is really felt since I was last in Athens a lot has happened there Greeks have done a deal with their creditors to write off vast amounts of debt that's enable them to borrow much more in the European Union and the IMF and that way they've been able to pay interest on old debt they've cleared a number of hurdles but my feeling is they've got many more yet to scale I'm back in Athens for an interview with Lucas Papademos the Prime Minister appointed caretaker last November for now the riots have ceased but real incomes are still falling and almost one in ten people here is now taking some form of handout of food or medicine the huge sacrifices being made here are not just financial Demitra newsy is still administering the provision of food supplies in the city center has anything changed since I was last here there are more people asking for help there are more families who come here asking for a plastic bag of supermarket products for home these people I do not feel as ashamed as they used to feel before you're seeing the hard end of what's happening in Greece today and it's happening under the Euro so I have to ask you for the future would you choose that the Euro or the drachma I prefer euro but controlled by another European policy by other politicians maybe by another political mentality that is closer to the European culture many things ever happen in Greece recently have been dictated from outside groups have been dictated by the European Union belong to a union how do you feel inevitably some things are dictated by outside you don't mind it's it's one of the rules of the Union I think everybody has to admit it the Prime Minister in Greece at the moment his is not elected he was a appointed how do you feel about that oh I don't feel very bad about that I I cannot say simply about his appointment it is not a violation of our institutions there is a kind of approval we know that we feel that I think it is a kind of consensus that exists in Europe and in Greece as well it's a sign of the times that like it's financially challenged neighbor Italy Greece has been governed by an unelected bureaucrat Lucas pata Dimas was also once governor of the Greek central bank he was appointed prime minister to direct Greece's compliance with the tough conditions set by its foreign lenders thank you so much for seeing us thank you for coming thank you I'll take my usual his five months as premier haven't been comfortable well Prime Minister I'm not sure that I envy you your job you've had a very difficult time indeed haven't you I have to agree with that it has been a very challenging period well where were the Great's actually come from what will enable Greece to become more competitive we are already implementing significant and far-reaching reforms in the labor market that will improve its efficiency and a restored cost competitiveness as as Europe moves for - ever closer political union how is the Democratic deficit going to be plugged how could you set up a democracy at the European level when there isn't really a European people how do you how do we deal with that issue for a country that participates in a monetary union inevitably there is a certain loss of autonomy of economic policy I would not call this a loss of democratic control so governments are accepting I would say in a democratic way this loss of autonomy because it's necessary for the efficient functioning of monetary union which is presumably accepted because of the benefit it entails but if you're losing autonomy at the national level don't you have to establish a new democracy at the European level and that that's what seems to me incredibly difficult to do if they are accepted by the people I would not call it loss of democratic autonomy the same way that in a given country authorities have a certain power because the people have decided to assign this power to the authority you have a debt that is vastly more than a hundred percent of your economic I might not tempt you to go back I think this is my signature yes but I wouldn't go back to this although it's a beautiful background the Greek people are suffering and it's true they have made many sacrifices over the past few years but more than seventy percent do support the continuing participation in the euro I've been surprised by how consistently everyone that I've met on my travels has disagreed with me about the future of the Europe to me the crisis exposes the fundamental economic and cultural incompatibilities of the richer north and the weaker south to them that's a challenge for which they're seeking political solutions that I fear may lead to an undemocratic federal Europe I want to put my concerns to two people that I met last time yes a monopolist and tussles Telugu and also to the outgoing socialist MP Ava Kylie to have a democratic control would require a European people but there isn't a European people we're still very much nation-states and we focus upon our own national political situation to open this so-called democratic deficit first why choose to face it to realize that you have to create the euro zone you know the expression over my dead body yes over you of this democracy we had over the last thirty years didn't produce much for the country and left us in a dismal state so I'm not sure the democracy we had served the Greek citizens in the good form so you don't really feel nostalgic for Greece's moulting democracy Greece let alone if people associate democracy with failure that means they maybe they won't love democracy very much they won't defend democracy but for Greece at this point in time it's a lesser of two evils so let's get our show up into shape since we haven't been able to control the state and make regional fully functioning capitalist economy we've been creating jobs and so forth we might as well take this I don't see any other political solution European Commission should be a European government which I don't think is something awful British leaders no [ __ ] British years yes yes Europe in dilemma that's like that we have to take from the top you are the swuit if you want to compete with the Chinese the Asian in the North American markets the views expressed by my Greek friends are reflected in opinion polls across the eurozone where the majority supports the idea of a more centralized Europe and yet to me they do so without any clear notion of how this new Europe would work as a democracy throughout the continent governments of faltering as they face public opposition to the austerity measures and now the voters of Greece and France have punished the politicians who try to impose them people want the Euro but don't seem prepared to accept the tough conditions attached and in my view this means that the great euro crisis is a long way from being solved when the Athenians invented democracy two and a half thousand years ago the philosopher Plato predicted disaster I fear that democracy has led politicians to out promised each other offering goodies that are enjoyed today but must be paid for in the future that's been easy during decades of rising living standards but can democracies cope with an entirely new situation where instead of meeting increasing expectations they can offer only cuts and struggle to manage decline as a convinced Democrat I hope that Plato may yet be proved wrong but as a confirmed euro skeptic I see further troubles ahead stay with us here on BBC HD it was a break rather than make for the candidate coming up next on The Apprentice you're fired