get off they I give it four to eight weeks see what happens and we've got testimonials on the page and I've got patients that I mean that will confirm this they feel great they feel better they ever have welcome to this channel I am dr. Stephen DeVos the lifting dermatologist and this is my partner Danny Bosa if you want to learn more about the most cutting-edge science based information in the world of hormone optimization please like and subscribe I also invite you to join my other youtube channel the lifting dermatologist the link you can find in the description of this video everyone and welcome to the trt and hormone optimization youtube channel i'm danny basa joined with my partner dr. steven davos and the very talented and super cool dr. jordan grant how are you guys doing hi Danny hey hey good so um I don't want to say it's another et2 video because i know we've done a lot of these but it just seems that we're doing we've done so many estrogen related videos and there's still so many weird comments I'm not sure if they're coming from guys that haven't seen videos done yet I did one with Jordan at one point we've done one with other physicians as well people weren't doing the impression that everybody on trt is using an AI or should use an AI people are in the depression that most guys need it or some of them say some guys need it I'm on the depression that virtually nobody needs it and we want to do a deep dive into that today we want to go through as many topics as possible about estrogen and any studies that are mentioned in this discussion we will link in the video below so you can go look at these studies together if you don't look at these studies yourselves because there are a lot of studies that we've looked at that are just kind of misleading I guess you could say Jordan will explain a little bit as to why and there's some that are just blatantly obvious as you know this is the right way to do things and the other thing too that I need you guys to understand is there's a lot of a lot of comments that we get in our videos in the Facebook group and elsewhere about you know this is just this is just Danny's opinion it's a big conspiracy theory there are fear mongers they just want everybody to to run rampant and and so on and so forth and the part that I still fail to understand is and we're gonna we're gonna discuss this of course likes pologize for the little rant tangent I'm going on here is what possible reason would we tell you to do something if we didn't think it was a good idea if we knew that blocking or managing estrogen was a good idea we would say do that that's that's best practices but we know it not to be true we know that you shouldn't so we are saying don't do it because the evidence has been demonstrated to us so we just want you guys to have the right information if you want to block it I'm blocking you or whatever how you want to do it's fine we just want you have the best information possible so we're gonna go in a fairly deep dive dr. Jordan grant who's we he's done a lot of reading up on the stuff and we're not gonna go into anything overly technical we don't wanna put you guys to sleep but we want to make sure that by the end of this video you've got a better understanding of the role of estradiol in men so Jordan let's start from the beginning testosterone is the male hormone that everyone calls it and estradiol is the womanly hormone right and I don't want to be a woman so where does how do we get estradiol where does it come from so and we need to I guess first talk about their different estrogens right there's not just estradiol but the main hormone we usually want to talk about the one that's most active physiologically there is natural is estradiol there's a couple other ones that's thrown in s3 all but they're weak compared to estradiol and so and then there's environmental estrogens so there's a lot of this it's a confusing when people just heard the term estrogen because that could mean a lot and that's I think where a lot of this stuff has actually come down the pipe from and we can talk about that later the studies where they've done on obese men with low T but they've got high estrogen they're measuring total estrogens they're not measuring me too and that can be from incomplete breakdown the liver all kinds of stuff anyway so estradiol although it is you know female hormone in the sense that you know we think of it because of the minstrel cycle and the way in their fertility cycle all that but outside from that and then during development each view is pretty much not sexually dimorphic meaning it affects men and women the same way and a lot of areas in the important ones that we're talking about today some people probably remember this if you went to med school or took embryology that we all start out female and then it's actually the androgens that then direct the changes to our tissue so we all have e to or estrogen receptors 92 extra receptors to the antigen receptors we're meant to have estrogen so there's a big misconception I've seen several guys post that you know estrogen antagonizes testosterone it's the it's like people think of it as light and dark or you know good and bad it's just not they're complementary they do different things and we need both and so you know diving into the papers on this stuff has been pretty fascinating so estrogen in a man I'd say about 15% of estradiol is made in the testes whenever the luteinizing hormone stimulates that stimulates testosterone and estradiol release so about 15% of circulating estradiol in MS from the testes when you're on testosterone replacement that goes to zero from the testes pretty much unless you're taking HCG which is a different pocket TRT alone you shut down the system shut down LH FSH you're not pumping a test drive from the test from the testes anymore so basically your estrogen is coming from conversion from aroma taste which is an enzyme that a lot of people have heard of because they take aromatase inhibitors so they think they know what aroma taste is I don't know what aroma taste is because I've never seen aroma taste but I know what people think it is as far as you know science aroma taste because I used to have it in my head that aroma taste was like in the bloodstream and testosterone just like the minute it's getting out into your system is just converting over and Georgian and flooding the system because that's the middle yeah that's the mental picture these are yet and that's not what happens and this has all been it's not new I'd say probably since the late 70s they've been talking about something called intra chronology which is different from endocrinology and indoor endocrinology is the theory that everything is systemic the hormones float around systemically and they do their job and that's how estrogen was thought of for a long time I think many because of pre menopausal women and they get the estrogen spike and all that but I've got several studies and we're gonna link to them and they all say the same thing and this this is a big deal is in men and postmenopausal women estradiol is not acting as an endocrine hormone it is being converted in the target tissues wherever aromatase is present in different amounts and therefore it's acting as an intricate hormone in those cells and most of it is actually deactivated or got rid of within those cells a little bit leaks out into the tissues and that's what you're picking up when you measure estradiol on a blood test but where do we get it is via a conversion from aromatize and we don't have to talk about the steps involved in that because there a lot of organic chemistry stuff that I've forgotten and it doesn't matter and then there there is conversion of and resteamed I own - I believe Esther own and Esther own can then in or convert to estradiol back and forth a little bit but the main component is from testosterone or androgens converting into estradiol via aromatisse so in a nutshell that is where we get our estradiol and that is the probably the biggest point that I need to hit home today and we'll come back to it probably more than once is estradiol is made in the tissues in different amounts it's not the same everywhere it's not and these papers mention this and like I say you can read them for yourself estradiol is not functioning as an endocrine hormone in men or postmenopausal women but also in men meaning the serum level is reflective that something is going on in all the tissues but it's not directive that that tiny amount probably does have a little bit of biologic activity but it's not anything compared to what's going on inside those cells from estradiol so the problem is going to be when you've blocked that conversion you block it in every single one of those tissues where aromatized present so so kind of a simple analogy to use would be imagine a bucket of water and it's got a tiny little hole and these little drops of water coming out a little little hole in the bucket and you're measuring the drops of water trying to determine how much water is in the bucket which is like a good analogy because I've been trying to think of a good analogy you know I'm doing other stuff because I'm a nerd and I think about this stuff all the time and it's not perfect because it's not dealing with a hormone it's dealing the protein but PSA levels because I'm a urologist it made me think about this intra prosthetic PSA levels are not the same as what you're picking up in the blood PSA is a protein and so it's not directly hormonal action but there's guys where you know you'll measure their PSA and they'll have a high PSA and they'll go oh crap I've got prostate cancer well then you put them through a workup and you don't find any prostate cancer well the reason you're picking up PSA in the blood stream on every man is a little bit leaks out of the tissue think of it like a leaky sewer system a little bits leaking out and your blood strands picking it up but what that doesn't say anything about what's going on that's really directly in the prostate it could be an indicator or something if your PSA zero you probably don't have a prostate you know you probably had it removed but just because you have a higher than normal PSA doesn't mean there's something pathologic going on it could but it does and again this isn't apples to apples with estradiol but it's just another way of thinking the blood levels and the tissue levels are not the same and you know we always see guys I get guys all the time they have an elevated PSA and we've ruled out cancer they say well how can I get my PSA down like you don't need to it's not causing any harm it's a protein you're just you're just picking it up in the serum it's it's not the PSA that's the problem it's is there something going on in the tissue so not the same as what we're talking about but I thought that was a fairly good analogy that there's different levels and we can make the same with DHT and all this this whole talk applies to DHT and it's funny how nobodies are they ever is talking about blocking conversion of testosterone and DHT I mean they'll do it when they're worried about male pattern baldness but er than that they don't measure DHT they're not worried about it it's the exact same thing as estradiol it's more of an intricate hormone meaning it's made in target tissues from 5-alpha reductase conversion if you look at intra prostatic DHT levels massive compared to the serum DHT I've got a great study where they gave men different levels of testosterone didn't affect the intra prostatic DHT levels because these intricate hormones they're very tightly regulated and it's the same with estradiol and aromatase and all that so I just wanted to kind of try to give it an ala see I try to think of it another one but I couldn't think of anything much better I'm sure we could think of plenty but it's it's reflective it's basically that serum level that you're measuring on a blood test a sensitive you know level sensitive e 2 level it's just showing you a glimpse that yes you're converting to estrogen and your tissues that's all it's basically saying now if it's really low that might mean you're not making it up you know if you're Sarah me too is like 5 yeah you're probably not you're probably own aromas ACE inhibitor or you have some kind of congenital deficiency but not necessarily I think there's probably guys that run a low serum e to let's say they're super lean they they're not making estradiol and their adipose tissue so they're not putting out as much in the serum but they still may be fine and their other tissues you know if they feel fine they're not having the symptoms of low e to probably fine so it's all pretty fascinating the whole talk that people used to say that I remember way back into bro science days of stuff I was reading I was convinced that low E to symptoms were very similar to high 82 symptoms meaning erectile dysfunction low libido well it could be either one and I remember always being in this position like what am I taking too much room at X am I taking not enough room attacks and and I have to go get measured because I got to find out you know cuz I gotta keep in this in this range and it was just it was just maddening yeah so we tell guys that it's good for us and I guess the thing that men have a hard time with is like how the hell could let's don't we're talking about estradiol what I'm gonna say I struggles to beat you know politically correct for this this this talk but how could s should dial which is known as the woman's hormone possibly be good for me I don't know if it's just what it's called because if we know that to be the women hormone maybe if it was called like the Johnny badass hormone like nobody would think about like I want my I want some of that I want that hormone you know maybe it's just because estrogen isn't that the woman's stuff like no I don't want to that so what are the benefits in the body that you can list because I know I can list a ton but yeah I mean I've got pulled up over here and the key to you got a look at these studies and figure out the best way they you can interpret them because there's different ways studies have looked at estrogens and what they do and they'll do a petri dish studies and they'll do these things with synthetic non bioidentical estrogens that's not relevant the best studies that we can really do to look at this is to look at what happens in men in humans when they don't have a roma taste and then you can really find out what what are those estrogens do and so they've actually done studies in in mice on a roma tastes knockout mice where they knocked out the gene and coding for it and then what happens there's a few people who have congenital aromatize deficiency and those are ideal people to look at the other people look at are comparing two groups men on T or T versus men on T or T we with an AI so all that's been done there's a great paper that we're gonna link to it's probably the number one paper we should that people should read first it's called an estradiol as a male hormone it's fantastic I think you originally posted it on the group a long time hmm but it gives the the references are great at the end because it links to all these other great papers as well so be sure and look at always look at the references you know when you're reading these papers but just briefly not just benefits I mean the estrogen does different things we don't have to talk about what it doesn't reproductive tissue most of us are past that point of worrying how it affects pramatta Genesis and all that interestingly e 2 has seems to be the primary driver growth hormone secretion which I thought was pretty fascinating there's been some talk about it increasing igf-1 levels and the liver a lot of people say that the studies I've seen I think it changes the response of GHS to igf-1 but I don't know that actually enhances it it actually helps with insulin sensitivity so they've done all these studies on guys on a eyes or aroma taste knockout or whatever and much much worse insulin sensitivity is a big deal especially in skeletal muscle so you see people with worsening blood glucose parameters things like that when they take a eyes for a long time or if they don't have a room taste at all bone is a big one this is the big one that they you know eventually started seeing in women on aromatase inhibitors when they had breast cancer bone mineral density loss I think men it takes longer to see that it's not just gonna be a few months on an aromatase inhibitor you're gonna start losing bone but there's several papers that once they go long enough you do see that change and then they have all the markers of the bone turnover and all that androgens and men are also protected though so men probably are going to have osteoporosis as bad as women even naturally because androgens directly stimulate bone as well so when we see it as a zoologist when men have to be castrated for their metastatic prostate cancer they lose testosterone and e2 I know there's all these studies saying you know these old men have low T and high E - no they don't they've got look they've got low both because you get you eat you from testosterone anyway so that it's a big deal with bone health and I've got a good paper we'll link to on the intro chronology of androgens and estrogens in bone tissue it's pretty amazing it's something that needs to be said is and this is just one paper mentions this does the e 2 levels in bone compared to the blood are only about 50% so they're they're half of what you're picking up so there's some tissues where e 2 is like magnitudes greater than what you're picking up in the blood and there's some like bone it's not as high but again what happens when you block a Roma taste you block it everywhere so the tissues where it's super high and you block it and maybe that's not as big of a deal probably is because it needs that much what about tissues it only has a little bit and it goes to zero like the bone you know so bone health is a big one body composition this is huge I'll try to find the papers on this to link to as well where they study room taste some of the sites and different fat patterns and all that but it seems like estrogen actually helps increase leptin leptin has been a big topic the last few years people when they die at their leptin levels fall leptin is kind of a master metabolic regulator or one of them hunger hormone as well and people with aroma taste inhibitors have lower leptin levels worse insulin resistance and increased visceral fat so they've seen when they add backe to you have more visceral fat loss and visceral that's the bad fat it's the fat around your organs usually a sign of also insulin resistance so they kind of he's probably all go hand-in-hand it's it's almost like LOI two leads to metabolic syndrome so someone who's got visceral fat blocking you two is probably the worst thing they can possibly do absolutely that's the thing that's gonna help them get rid of them visceral fat yeah ya know and subcutaneous fat you know just you know in places that's more than the calorie balance than anything you're not gonna all sudden take estrogen and then start developing fat it's different with females because they're fat patterns that stuff that was ingrained one of this genetics but just and I guess over time if you were taking a high amount of each you as a man and you might start seeing some changes in fat pattern but we're not talking about taking eat you we're talking about letting your body make the amount that it's supposed to make and that's a huge deal cuz people like Oh Jordan grant he loves this for you anyone's ever ready to take estrogen and I've never said that so no that's not what we're talking about we're not telling anybody to take literally take estrogen guys but there are some like Jordan was saying that they don't make enough of it and we do know physicians that are actually prescribing estradiol to ensure they have healthy levels yeah and I've heard of doctor Rozier I think when he talked about this on Jays podcast you know whatever that was over a year ago that there are I mean cardiologists he knew they were taking estradiol the most with most of their levels and I'm not the one to speak about that because I don't do it when I give eetu as for a man who's had who's been castrated and it's having hot flashes and weakness and memory issues and you do it what's called like e to add back and their studies on this and it helps libido so here's another one with e 2 drives libido I know that people think that's crazy but it does they've done tons of animal studies on this and it's really interesting with like mating behaviors and birds and all this stuff but it's it's the same in men and there was a good paper I'll link to as well about men who've been castrated and who have been given estradiol to help with her libido interestingly enough so I learned this in residency and I didn't really fully understand the mechanism whenever in the older days when a man would have prostate cancer metastatic you could either give them an androgen blocker so basically something to block the receptors or you could castrate them which is two different things they'd always say if you give them the estrogen blocker it would preserve their erections and their libido and I thought that that makes sense you're blocking their testosterone well the reason it works is because you're giving a negative feedback loop you actually start pumping out more LH FSH your estradiol levels stay high you're not blocking those and your libido is preserved whereas if you castrate a man you remove his testicles or chemically castrated and Kiki doesn't make eetu or testosterone and he loses the libido so pretty fascinating that you know even in residency you know they said this stuff and you read it but I didn't know why but it makes sense that estradiol is a big driver of libido and so the other thing you know we talked about glucose metabolism brain health is a big one now I've got a good paper I post recently on that one on it's amazing the intra chronology and the brain base region is acting like a neuro steroid found at Romo tastes in the synapses you know just where the neurons meet talk to each other so you're you're you're making a straw right there on the spot from circulating androgens and all this stuff is important in cognition and memory and verbal memory there's different kinds of memory things they've looked at but they worry about lo e2 and Alzheimer's and women all kinds of stuff so those would be the big ones I would I would say would be sexual health own health metabolic health neural health those would be the big ones in my mind and when we start blocking those you start seeing issues a lot of guys what they believe is they said well yes this is all you know a lot of bad stuff will happen by blocking estrogen because I know when I crash my estrogen I have no libido and erections and on on and on you know but I find that when I have too much then a lot of these things happen and that's like they say I want to keep it in this in this range yeah why don't we just touch on that about how some of the guys are just not really giving their bodies the time to balance out that it could seem as being a short protocol yeah there's there's no good Studies on this part of it number one let me back up and say there's no studies showing that men should block aromatase on testosterone replacement no that should be done that that's a standard thing doctors get they love their lab ranges and so they would check people start checking estradiol well if it goes out of the normal range where they want to do they want to fix that and so people get fixated on that as well the reason estradiol goes up when you're on testosterone is because you have constant levels of testosterone so there you have more romanization going on you're gonna pick up more you two that way where's when you're making your testosterone naturally you get these small pulses throughout the day and so the total some estradiol and you're gonna pick up in the blood it's not going to be the same as when you're got a constant androgen load so of course the range is meaningless because the ranges they got were not based on men on Turkey again but people see that number they think I got to block it and then there's been the misconception about estrogen symptoms high estrogen symptoms things that just aren't really based in reality and so then when they see a number that's high and they're having certain symptoms they blame it on estrogen what I see anecdotally because there's not good Studies on this and we see it in the group all the time and I've seen in practice a lot a guy has been he's either been given an from the start by a provider and he never got dialed in that way and he's been just on roller coaster ever since then or a guy who's been put on testosterone replacement but never allowed to get symptom free he's never allowed his levels to get high enough or he's been on a horrible protocol of like an injection every two weeks every three weeks once a month something insane so they're doing these fluctuations and they blame it on the e2 and they've never been dialed in the same way I see it and I you know look a lot of people love their HCG and I think HCG is great to maintain fertility but it can cause weird fluctuations and a lot of these guys that have these issues that feel like they need and they are off and on HCG as well especially some like big dose twice a week or huge dose once a week something interesting about HCG is it will spike testosterone about 24 hours after given after administration takes four days for e2 to catch up because that's coming from the testicles your testicles are producing that it's not the same as a room as a ssin and so you could get a mismatch there where then yeah you too may be more acting like an endocrine hormones at that point because you're kind of flooding the system all of a sudden with extra e2 and it may be hitting receptors that the testosterone is already doing this so I don't know but from what I've seen anecdotally and what we see in the group is these guys have never been dialed in in almost every scenario there's always an outlier but almost every scenario we've taken a guy and said you got to come off your AI you got to trust the process you may have to increase your testosterone but don't do anything at first if you're already on a decent protocol already but you still don't feel well get off they I give it four to eight weeks see what happens and we've got testimonials on the page and I've got patients that I mean that will confirm this they feel great they feel better they ever have I had a guy in town recently he was on pellets for ten years and AI once a month like he never felt very I mean and he'd already stopped his AI about a month before he came to see me in clinic because I think he saw one of our videos and we got him off the pellets on the injections and just checked his first lab results he's a little high on his tests off he still got some pellets in there dying off but he said this is the best I've felt in 10 years I mean he just feels amazing and when guys stop the mind is the most powerful thing so when they're fixated on that estradiol number on the serum they're going to convince themselves that they need an AI well we just kind of went through about the serum levels and why they're really not valid at all as far as showing what's going on at the tissue level so if you can get somebody away from that and that's the biggest reason I'm hammering this is because you've got to get away from that blood level I don't even check it on my patients I mean it's it's not it's not important because it's not showing you what's going on at the tissue but these guys that just they reach for their AI and they'll never give it a chance you know they'll say oh I tried to stop for two weeks but then I started feeling weird I got a little nipple sensitivity so they grabbed their AI and then they felt better for a day and then they start feeling worse again it's a never-ending cycle you see it stephen sees that we all see it so why is there an upper limit on lap ranges for estrogen are there any studies that show symptoms from hi YouTube I have not found it and I would I will gladly take correction and buy eat you I mean actual truiy - not a lot of the old tests that we're done and these are when they used to say these old fat man was low t had high estrogen which doesn't make sense based on our paradigm here right so thankfully this paper brings that up and there's there's two good papers where they actually went to look and see if it was true and they found one was in older obese diabetics and another was just an obese man in Europe and they actually measured sensitive e - so an actual you know not a not a immunoassay but a liquid chromatography mass spec and their each you levels were not high so so no I haven't seen any studies where physiologic e - made from aromatization with men on T or T there's ever some level that causes symptoms never seen it so as Danny said the low E - symptoms would be the same as the high E - symptoms but that's really bro science right it is and if you google it there's all its everybody does it because I used to do it you google high E - versus low E - and there's a little snapshot there and people copy and paste that and put it in the groove and I'm like yeah your Google search is meaningless because that stuff's not based on any science that I could find but it's it's passed around in the bodybuilding forums I mean it's you know yeah you just got to keep it in range because you know you could be having these symptoms either high or low no it's not it's totally different when you're low you know you're low I've been there it's horrible Danny's probably been there oh my about that last video we did of how we were obsessed with trying to keep it in this range and we're never wandering always wandering it where we - higher we - lowered we have to take more of the AI how do i time my AI do I take it before the injection a day of or to take it the day after and it just never it never worked and the funny thing guys something you got is that understand it took so much arguing with me you know a stubborn I am right people arguing back when I thought hey I was needed and I used to argue with the doctors I had in the area to say no I need an AI because otherwise nothing is gonna work and I argued with them to death and eventually somebody convinced me that I shouldn't and I say you know what I'm gonna try it because so far nothing else I've done has worked and as soon as I stopped literally as soon as I stopped within a couple of days I felt those eetu symptoms happening again and right away I'm like see they're there they're full of crap see I I got my little guy know here that's starting to swell up and like my little friend down there is not working so good and my Leap was off and I don't feel the same and I see I should take my AI so you know what if I'm gonna do a test let me do at least do a proper test and I can wait and see how horribly wrong things go over a period of time and then at least I can report back and say see you were wrong and I was right and it was just like things started getting kind of off but then they kind of plateaued and like with every passing day I was always about there and then I just start getting better better better and then it was gone but then when I felt back to my usual self if you will said I had days of improvement like I'm feeling better than I was of the a I'm feeling better I'm feeling better guys also watching it's not just a question of feeling better I feel better when I'm on an AI there's a there's some reasons why some of you will feel better on it on an AI okay it doesn't mean that taking it as healthy imagine I could tell you that you can dial in your protocols better that you won't need the AI you'll feel as good as before if not potentially even better just by some small tweaks because it's good to say well it works for me cuz I feel better I used to smoke half a pack of cigarettes a day just up I quit what two years ago okay so smoke half a pack and I felt great smoking no cigarettes we know damn well that cigarettes aren't good for you we know damn well that AI use is not good for you yeah you might feel great now but down the road things are gonna happen I totally agree and that's a big cuz we are you know we harp on symptom resolution and feeling good that doesn't mean you for it all the time you can't trust your feelings we all know that because that gets us in a lot of trouble in life by trust in how we feel yeah they're not really trustworthy and especially when it comes to you I'm not saying ignore symptoms and all that stuff that's no not at all but you know there is a mental component today it is it is more powerful than I ever realized until I joined the group and started really interacting with men about this and it's literally like cocaine or crack I mean it really is like they will I don't know how many guys had messaged me saying I reached for the hey I again and I did it I did it again and it's it's unbelievable I mean it really is it's how is that powerful because they had been just hammered to believe that they have to keep that estrogen in a certain range and it ruins their lives honestly it really does and the best thing they can do is throw that AI away and not check their estradiol levels because they're not that important they're not driving the action in their in their system your body has an amazing way of balancing the testosterone is given and the metabolites it needs meaning both DHT and aromatase it's very rare to have aroma taste deficiency I've only seen one case report of somebody with over expression of aroma taste like like you know too much it's not like but most guys think that they're in this like I'm not over aromatize ER I hear that all the time or see it written yeah I just I'm gonna Roma tiser yeah you are we all are we all we need it like that's the point they're like what they mean they mean / aromatize er no you're not you're not an overrun with us guys the this the incidence of this occurring is is so tiny it's probably one in 10,000 maybe even 100,000 that it has a variant where they're just converting an insane amount of test t2 and for them yes the problem is that all you think Arnold but I'm an oversized distance journalist saying and you should see the posts that we get in our Facebook group as if you're another Facebook group we're talking about it's called TR teen hormone optimization just like the YouTube channel guys coming in saying you know I've tried this I've done this into this we've suggested some really minor tweaks to the protocol and they get off and then Jordan and I Steven we're getting all this thank you email saying hey I feel better I had you know my erection quality was soso and now it's perfect or I wasn't able to see before now I can or I had brain fog before I felt good about a green [ __ ] that's gone whatever it is and you got understand it we're I have nothing to sell you guys I have nothing to sell you like this I just I want you guys to feel good if feeling good men taking an AI in controlling that estrogen that is exactly what we would be reporting well it was healthy if it was if it was needed you know I mean it's different but it's not needed a [ __ ] let me show I'm gonna show them the screenshot of that poll okay guys I made a I made a poll in our group now in our group we have a little over 2000 members right now I was curious because a lot of people were saying you know all this no you're you anti AI guys and stuff like that like most doctors prescribe AI right on the spot most guys are taking an AI so and so forth I mean a poll and the poll was you have four options either you never took an AI you took an AI and stopped and feel better you take an AI now because you need it you feel you need it or you want to or you try to stop taking an AI but just couldn't do it okay I'm gonna show you this is a current screenshot of the pole base if you look there you're gonna look at the first option never took an AI there's a hundred and forty votes so far four never took any I took an AI what's the second one and stopped and now I feel better ninety-seven people selected that one took it I take it AI now because I need to or one two only 18 people and then the other one tried to stop taking a bite but I couldn't do it there's only two so you can see right now and again this I understand this is in our group but the vast majority of them are not taking in AI and are doing great and most of them have learned that in the group now if they came to our group and we were telling him not do this and they were doing it it just wasn't working out or they get it worse they'd say hey I tried and it didn't work or whatever or no I take it it would be demonstrating and right now for this poll for me is evidence that what we're doing in our group is working there's more memorize guys getting off the stuff not to mention it's not only dr. grant and and dr. Davis that talk about this stuff literally every single doctor that we've had on this channel has said the exact same thing even IFBB pros we've had on John Meadows and Greg Doucet we obviously go more beyond trt that know what stuff that they take they're not taking a eyes they don't do that for any of their clients the medical professionals who come on the functional medicine practitioners all they just don't so we're talking combined tens of thousands of guys no AI doing great so the question is ask yourself why would we be telling you this if we have nothing to sell we're telling you that if you're on an AI now number one is if you're taking a weekly injection and feel that you're needing the I try splitting that injection up maybe twice a week because we should actually go into that Jordan of how what they consider to be e to symptoms high you to symptoms are typically just caused by these fluctuations and it's my understanding that when you're taking an AI it'll kind of minimize those suctions so yeah you're gonna feel better but you're causing harm in order to feel better and that harm will catch up with you after a while and the other thing is there are some guys that potentially are not taking enough testosterone that you know they just need to have when you're taking testosterone taking a I we're now less is converting into estrogen which means you wind up a little bit more testosterone how much that is is probably negligible but you still wind up with more testosterone okay so not taking enough yeah any little bit is gonna help I've noticed with myself and like virtually every single guy if I've helped out again for free just in my spare time and Jordan hasn't a group like crazy as we look at their labs and we're like what are your symptoms or sisters this try a little bit more testosterone get rid of the AI and see and they always come back like yeah that that did it most of them are either taking an AI not feeling good or they're doing weekly injections not feeling good some of them might be twice weekly so they're on HCG or their they're on HCG and DHEA and pregnant alone and I mean they're loading things down there's so many variables there it's really hard to and I'm a big stickler for simplicity and I like now that guys in on on testosterone alone I don't I know there's doctors that say you guys start taking DHEA pregnenolone right away the more I look into especially like this intra chronology stuff don't know that I see as much benefit in the supplemental side of those unless you're truly deficient once you're kind of tanked up on them adding a lot more may not do that much actually a cellular level because your body's already taking care of that we'll go back to what I was going to say earlier why is it when guys are pumping out natural levels of 1200 and 1500 they're not told and even an aromatase inhibitor why all of a sudden when you get on to your TV you immediately need it every one of these big box trt clinics across the country they do it you know and there's a cookie cutter protocol it's here's your testosterone I want you to take this I'll just take HCG and I want to taste it take your AI and they sell that stuff so yeah they do have something to gain by it I'm not knocking those clinics I mean at least they're getting guys on testosterone versus the doctors that refused to do it but that I mean it's okay that what they're doing either you know it's it's in my mind it's not if we know that it's harmful to do stuff and you still do it not the best interests like they're anticipating there's gonna be a problem I'm gonna give you I'm gonna sleep over at all yeah and I know you're gonna have issues would hi you too so let me give you this or built implant that in their head it's like Inception you know they're like implanting a dream within a dream here yeah you gotta watch that e2 you're gonna have this this and this and then they'll see you their lab and go ie 2:45 and it's supposed to be 40 in yeah I'm not feeling around I got a pup in a I mean it is just like that mmm and then you were talking about the protocols and the weekly and the fluctuations I definitely think that's a big part of it is poor protocols not getting stable levels it's not just e to that's just in general if you're fluctuating with your testosterone in your then you're fluctuating with the other metabolites that you need it's not just s usual it's the DHT it's the testosterone you're doing this and for whatever reason when you replace testosterone it needs to be fairly stable why that doesn't cause an issue when you're natural and pulsing testosterone all day I don't know I have no idea why then it's okay but that's how the body is an amazing thing when it's doing what it's supposed to do because it's just constantly pulsing I mean you're literally going from high tea but you'll go low again pretty quick if you if you didn't you'd shut down your own epithalamus but you go low enough that your hypothesis is like oh crap we got to pump out more yeah but how much of that how much of that up and done is gonna be it's probably a fairly narrow range I don't know like anything a thermostat between 20 21 degrees and 23 degrees and yes it's just fascinating me though that it's it's that you don't shut your own production down and there's negative feedback and then also here a few an hour later oh no we need some more you know but you just take a little bit and there's guys it take to you know how milligrams a week not much at all it still shuts you down so I think it's just that constant stimulation you're not getting the pulsatile nature it's the same reason a LHRH agonist so we're gonna go one step above both elements so like Lutron which is what they give guys to chemically castrate er if you pulse it it will increase their testosterone if you continuously give it it will shut down shut down their system so I think it's the same thing when we're constantly giving testosterone that's what causes the shutdown anyway that's a tangent but the fluctuations I think matter and I think that's a big deal with HCG I think if I see a guy who really wants to be on HCG because of fertility or just has to do it I do think smaller doses even daily of HCG would probably be ideal for them you know I don't fifty units a day something like that just to keep things nice and stable because things will equilibrate if you're doing daily eventually with those fluctuations with HCG it'll kind of smooth out if you're doing a couple shots a week you're constantly doing this even if you got testosterone dialed in you're adding another layer of fluctuation with HCG and then with the Roma taste inhibitors you take one even one time and it causes these fluctuations and then you rebound after that depending on the AI that you take another thing we probably should touch on is because we do have people that take steroids and they're taking DHT compounds or derived compounds so they're taking nandrolone and those also interfere with romanization and so that's something really important that people need to know DHT is going to bind aromatase but it can't be aromatized so it's basically you know competitively inhibiting aromatase acting as an AI not probably as strong as remedy X or aromasin but we've seen it in blood work on guys and they need to be aware of that and that's a case where there are coaches and bodybuilding adding estradiol to their guys cycles and that's smart you know those guys I don't think they still understand this side of it that we've talked about this paracrine intra current system because they still talk about the blood levels a lot but at least they understand the importance of estradiol I mean that's a big breakthrough in the bodybuilding world you know they still are fixated on estrogen and gyno which we've talked about and you don't need to rehash today but I'm sure somebody will bring that up in a comment that oestrogen causes gyno know estrogen alone does not tell Scott if you give estrogen in a setting with perfect androgen balance it's not going to cause god there's an imbalance issue there there's igf-1 issues prolactin bla bla bla genetics there's tons of you know factors involving I know and you you personally can attest to that I personally can attest to that when I got up my astringent was not high I was actually taking aromasin at the time and I was taking MK 677 at the time and got a guy that low you know so and mine was even long before TRT guys just in case you never saw that at the video we did I had mine pride 15-20 years ago and when I finally got blood work done my e2 was 12 so 12 for e2 is really low they say that the magical range is 20 to 30 which were explaining here is kind of silly I was 12 so I was I was incredibly low but I had very low levels of testosterone I feel that I developed my tiny lump simply from a testosterone deficiency because as soon as I brought it up my estrogen came up and then suddenly I started shrinking and shrinking and shrinking and now it's it's less than half that it was it is Oh some before and after pictures on my Instagram which I hardly used but I think I should start using it for this purpose yeah the difference is made I don't want to touch on two little points really fast something you said guys out there I'm sure you know at least one super jock guy he's not on trt he doesn't take gear he's just you know just loses testosterone he's just built like that I know a bunch of guys like that myself DeeAnn have naturally high levels of testosterone okay I want you to think of the guys that you know like that now go see those guys and ask them are they taking an aromatase inhibitor to block as an estrogen that they're making the crazy amounts of estrogen from all this high testosterone they're making naturally no they're not you don't know guys that are just walking around just I'm just gonna take an AI it's just not done so how is it that when guys on t RT get our levels up to what those guys are well suddenly we need to block it it makes no logical sense and you really need to ask yourself these questions to wrap your brain around that blocking it is just silly all right there's nothing but benefits from estrogen and if you block it even if you just block it a little bit where you're going to blow those estrogen benefits just a little bit and over time that blockage is gonna cause is gonna cause an issue yeah in regards to the sari as a very quick and in regards to the fluctuations and he was mentioning if you're taking weekly injections you could say you know what else take my let's say I'm taking 200 milligrams a week I'll split it in two I'll take 100 twice a week let me try that for eight weeks do I feel better yes great stick with that I don't feel better okay try every other day so take your weekly dose split it into three and a half and then every second day take a tiny dose try that out for about eight weeks you feel better great stick with that you don't let's go to the more extreme take your weekly dose divide it into seven I take a tiny little daily shot we know guys that have to do daily just to keep those levels stable and as soon as they do everything is fine and I've got guys reporting back to me like that they're trying like really high levels of tests just for the just for you know an experiment of their own because of all these guys we talked to they're kind of like biohackers and they're saying I can go up so high and as long as I'm doing daily I don't get any of those eetu symptoms because they're naughty to sit there the fluctuation so doing daily weather injections or the daily cream it's just gonna keep your levels just totally flat you won't have these issues at all and you reap all of the benefits that agendas given you I was gonna say you know there could be certain men you know the gyno when they're younger because they do have an aberrant aroma taste expression and the memory you know tissue I mean just like women can have you know that's an issue with the tissue you know I mean that's not the estrogen it's like doing it they just they're over expressing aroma taste let's see more cancers than it is in normal tissue and I've had that myself yeah as a team it was a it was a lump that formed like a big like a marble out of the blue and I was super super super lean when I was a team and I remembered being able to grab it and pull that's usually showing my mom yeah and that's usually not from a Roma taste that's usually the teenage you know pubertal guy no that's when you really start getting into these weird fluctuations with GH igf-1 you know your typical growth hormones they're all out of whack a balance and once things get balanced out past that period a lot of times those lumps to go away they're all permanent which is a little different from like a steroid-induced lump that is probably permanent but it can still shrink like mine has gone down I can still know it's there because I know where it is but you can't even really see it through my t-shirt or anything like that what else was I gonna say about the you know you're talking about just blocking it a little bit I mean that's the thing guys will say well I just want to block it a little bit why why what - coach - whatever it is you know that you've already talked about these serum levels like this is a big deal I want people to look into this read the paper read the papers that we post I mean look into yourself I'm not making this stuff up when I first read this I was blown away it was to me this is a paradigm shifting thing to the intra chronology thing changes everything I already knew we shouldn't be blocking it I didn't really understand why except it just doesn't work and you feel bad you have all these bad side effects but once you realize where estradiol is actually made and that that measurement you're getting in the blood is not telling you anything about what's actually going on then it's like all right I'm done I don't I don't need anything I don't need to know you know and I'm sure there's we all kinds of questions and people ho about well estrogen causes water retention and estrogen does this and I think we can talk about that as they come up because they've done yeah Studies on women during their cycle or what the four months dude it's the water retention that's not relevant here - aromatized e - androgens cause water retention you know people get that they stimulate the kidneys directly probably as much as E - E - doesn't actually stimulate the kidneys much at all it can change the 88 setpoint but anyway it's minimal it's just there's a lot of stuff that's blamed on e - that's not e - you know a lot of side effects people get when they're too high it's because they're too high on their androgen lobe it's not because their heat is too hot and that's what I think we wanted to bring up did you want to talk about that here at the end the graph where they gave the steroid or not steroid users but the guys up to six milligrams a week no sauce absolutely I think it's out of its base Boston PHAs I am the big study all the bodybuilders quoted because they know in part because it was a death this response thing where you get more testosterone to grow more muscle doing nothing sitting on the couch you know and they did it up to 600 grams a week well they've got lovely little charts in that study plotting the total testosterone levels and the e2 levels and young and old man and DHT and do you know what happens in both young and old as the testosterone goes up up up up 3000-4000 huge amount usually three or four thousands of limit with 600 grams a week e 2 and DHT start doing this they plateau so it and there's outliers what's the scatterplot you and there's a few here and there but it's it's not what people think they think oh the more testosterone I take I'm just going to keep pumping out more and more estrogen now you've already pretty much saturated your aroma taste in your 5 alpha reductase at a certain level then you start going the wrong direction with too much of a androgen load versus you're not getting balanced with with the other thing and again people can have issues from that probably health issues so there's a sweet spot in there where it's more linear that seems to keep that balance but again this is even this is just based on serum levels that don't mean that much but I just think it's fascinating that you can at least see just based on the serum levels that it's not doing what people think it does I don't put a much stock into it because I'm not that worried about those serum levels but that gives me more ammo to say you don't need to worry about it because look even if you are worried about the serum levels they're gonna level off you know they're going up linearly to a point and then they plateau so it's the opposite of what people think I thought that was are talking about ratios that you have to have testosterone and estradiol in a healthy ratio and we we do have a paper and I know we posted it in the group we can buy through that in the link as well that say for example you take in a I so now you're gonna lower estradiol your ratio gates gets bigger right we have literature to support that higher ratios themselves will cause issues and the only way you're gonna have higher ratio is by bringing the estradiol down the smaller the ratio the more health benefits there are as you're raising tea let you to follow and have it keep that nut found it's it's not the ratio because again the serum level is not what's driving it but when you block e to that level Falls and that's just affecting that you're blocking a to all court I mean she was not the ratio you're blocking e2 e2 is beneficial I've got studies showing guys on our own face inhibitors with testosterone have much worse in a filial function they got worse damage to the lining of their blood vessels I mean on and on and on all this stuff it's like it just makes sense it's all the stuff we see every day it's right there in the research but ya guys still want to pull these crappy Association studies out where they're like all these guys with low tea and in their high estrogen and they're associated with blah blah blah like that's not e to that they were measuring and the papers that we have where they did measure it mention that old papers saying that it eats the riot lab so as we're these do a video on those studies aren't we Jordan and said we're going to talk about a lot of stuff this is much more broad my point was what my point was people obsessing with this ratio thing now there's literature to suggest hydrations whatever but you're still using the measurement of estradiol which isn't even really of a measurement because of you know what you're saying it being an intern or moan but we're just measuring a little a little bit that's why you're getting like this muddy reflection of what's actually going on at a deeper level it's not it shows that something is going on yeah that it means you're making estradiol in your tissues good doesn't tell you how much each tissues get it each tissue is not contributing like an equal weighted average to that level you know it's clothes tell guys they're like well but what if my fat cells are making too much aroma say you know and they're pulling out too much e2 and I'm like what if they are if you block it you still block it everywhere else that you need it like it makes no sense the other thing we were talking about with admission aroma taste in fat cells like people used to think that that caused obesity no it seems like it's actually a response to try to keep the metabolism those fat cells doing what they should do it's actually a good thing that they make a Roman taste so anyway that's there's a it's a huge topic but this was I just wanted this to be a big broad picture you know of how it's made what it does and how the measurements aren't really that reliable as far as tissue action I think that that's the take-home point that just a few people can get cuz I send this to a lot of guys and it's like so what they don't don't get it but to me it was huge like that's just to me that's a game-changer just in the way you think about it because like say we always think about it just converting out in the ether in your bloodstream and this is just wreaking havoc and converting it's not it's the same with DHT by the way to the guys watching this video I just had a little thought I mean do something a little bit different like I said at the beginning of the video there's a lot of you saying this is just a big conspiracy theory and this fear-mongering and it's the anti AI cult and and so on and so on and so on and so forth I want you to think just for a moment what possible reason we would be have to give you inaccurate information and explain it as depth as we've got and we're gonna go into even more depth in another video why would we do this unless we thought it was correct now if you believe that it's a conspiracy or we're lying to you or we're making it up I want you to comment in this video and say exactly what reason we would have to be doing this they are doing it before the anti-estrogen dollars from the department of anti-estrogen or they're doing it for like tell us what the reason is and maybe we can clarify it because I can't understand what reason you think we would have to lie about this as if we don't have a product to sell you we have no products guys like unemployed position I'm not making extra money off commissions or any of that and I don't spend hours of my free time looking into these papers just for kicks I mean I I want people it myself included to know the truth and I say truth with a you know science is not going to give you truth it can just point to things that are more likely and once the things are repeated over and over you can kind of get an idea that there's a pattern going on and that's what we see with aromatase inhibitor use the pattern is not good it's unhealthy it's I feel like crap I can't get erections I can't sleep my bones hurt my joints hurt I've got brain fog I mean it's it doesn't matter what the dose is it can be I take 0.0008 tab of Arimidex every 10 days and I still just don't feel why are you even doing that I've seen that recently I said this makes no sense physiologically like once every 10 days what do you doing I'm just going away really yeah we don't we're not we're not out to get anybody with this if the data comes out and they do some awesome interventional studies and all the sudden guys on AI is actually in the healthier and whatever will change our report that yeah so far I mean everything's pointing the other direction I got a go with it what is that so to all you guys that are still struggling out there the best advice that I can give you and Jordan will say the same Stephen will say the same it's just focus on getting sufficient levels of free testosterone okay if you're way under you know if you're way under 20 you've gotta you gotta bring up your dose if you're symptomatic if you're between 20 and 30 or so systemic you could probably go up there's guys in our group that are 40 50 60 whatever it is but if you're getting your dose up there and you're keeping you're finding a way to keep those levels consistence throughout the week and months have passed and you still have issues okay well testosterone isn't your issue but guess what neither is DHT neither is estrogen neither is all that forget that stuff just concentrate on T and if you've got that done but that aside it's okay I've got healthy levels of testosterone now what else can i address you can address thyroid you can address your nutrition you can address your sleep you get address your stress there's address exercise maybe you've got a food intolerance we've got a vitamin deficiency of other things forget all of the other labs when it comes to hormones and just say do I have sufficient levels of free testosterone yes or no don't rely on total because I know plenty of guys that have a total of 1200 and they're free t is like 12 because they're sh sh PG is is there skyrocketed okay you're gonna have to find a way how do I get this this freakin sauce or not get it up get the levels consistent give it time don't base your protocol after a week or two or three give it eight weeks and go from there don't add anything else go back to basics the best thing I have ever done was just going back to basics and say forget all these other supplements stuff I'm just gonna take tests I'm gonna get my levels up I'm gonna keep them stable and then I'm just gonna give it time and literally with every passing month I'm feeling better this is me and Danny that's exactly what I tell patients when I see guys who were already on testosterone they don't feel well they're on these crappy protocols that we talked about when they come to see me am i weird we're starting from scratch we're dialing everything back and we're gonna get you dialed in on testosterone and it's that simple and we're gonna ride it out we're gonna trust the process and believe it or not two months later they're like messaging me on Facebook like I feel great you know I mean every now I guess somebody goes you know my libido is still not quite what I think it should be you know look at labs they're free t is you know twenty two and I'll say okay we can try raising that and see but they may not be your issue because again libido is a whole different topic it's not just about testosterone or estrogen in fact one of us Wertheimer thyroid life stress whatever dopamine allows guys are on other medicines so you know you mentioned getting your life in order nutrition sleep every guy talked to you and even if an obese you know seventy year old guy I'm like you got to start doing something you've got to lose weight you have to metabolic syndrome is one of the biggest deals in the world I think especially United States it's very health hazards so you got to work out you got to eat right you gotta do all that stuff a lot of these guys so many guys that talk about sorry to just say what you're saying they say my I thought my trt was good two years ago but I had more body fat I've lost a ton of body fat now two years later my dose is the same I feel a million times better it's as if the TRT the testosterone was working better in my body now that I'm leaner than back when I you know 25 30 pounds to lose it probably is working better honestly and their insulin sensitivity is better and they feel better yeah it's a huge deal and I think there's a there is something to be said for these guys that do need higher doses to feel better there's something to be said for the endocrine disrupting chemicals and the estrogen like chemicals that are hitting receptors and causing these in mouths they're not only best receptors but probably inhibiting androgen receptor well and so they do need higher doses that something doctors a lot of them don't believe in yeah I don't know for sure but I think it's a thing I believe people and I've seen it I've seen guys that you know their total is you know 1200 and they're fries 20 and most doctors look at it and say you're too high and they're like I don't feel any different yet and then you get them to whatever a free tea of 35 and they're like I feel great like I mean that's not a huge difference I mean you're not gonna turn somebody into a bodybuilder with that dose so a lot of people think you're just abusing it's not and work that way but if you can get them feeling better on that dose if they're better that's it in the story so yeah and taking nai is gonna have no effect on all of these estrogens and the food or the water is it will raise the free testosterone which may be what you needed in the first place so it's masking it's basically you're simulating what you needed in the first place but then they have the other side effects yeah exactly nice let's see apparently he's uh no he's gone oh well hope includes asleep so guys everyone watching you if you like this video and maybe it was an eye-opener for you and you're like wow I never looked at it that way put a like put a comment to explain to you what it was in the video that convinced you that maybe taking any is not a good idea if you're not taking an AI and you and you feel good and you've been telling people not to post comments about that also as well and for those of you like I said there think that we're just making this up to convince you to make us join our magical anti AI cult or whatever reason write in a comment exactly what it is that you feel that we're doing to potentially try to mislead you because I can assure you I make nothing of this oh this is my free time Jordan's a urologist you know we're not even talking about his clinic none of us are this is just us spending some free time trying to get you guys have a best info possible that's all we're trying to do Jordan it was great having you on as always I can't wait to do that study overview back back back yeah I just did some curls okay guys thank you very much and have yourselves a great weekend thank you bye guys Thank You Jordan