[Music] welcome to the Arkham sessions everyone as always I'm Brian Ward and I'm sitting next to Dr Andre letamendi hello so uh we're coming off the biggest week of the show ever it was turns out uh Harvey Dent pre-to face is a pretty interesting guy um but this week is going to be pretty interesting as well you know there this is the very first episode where we're given two facee from beginning to end uh if you thought the psychological war between Harvey and big bad har was over now that D's been disfigured you're well um so let's get started shall we we shall okay so last week Harvey was struggling with his alter ego big bat Harve his therapist thought that this Persona was created by Harvey's suppression of every Angry feeling he's ever had since he was a kid and it was somewhat determined by those within the show that due to his inability to remember his time as big bad Harve uh Harvey was suffering from multiple personality disorder or as it's called now dissociative identity disorder right did Drea you thought there was an alternative diagnosis though something about horses and menars right um well I use the phrase that we often use in this field which is when you hear hoves think horses not zebras and it's not to say that zebras don't exist um they certainly do but sometimes when um we hear of certain characteristics and symptoms we immediately go to the the most uh kind of interesting exotic um representation and we forget about what might be the most um common and certainly well explained scenario or diagnosis right so you know we mentioned uh that Harvey was experiencing these mood swings and that he was going through these periods of being very irritable angry starting fights with strangers um we discuss the possibility of him having what's called bipolar disorder also known as manic depression and we could almost characterize these episodes that he has as manic episodes where he's going through severe mood swings to the degree that he's very irritable starting fights um his ability to um to work has been kind of impacted his relationships have been impacted and that maybe his Persona his other persona is a way that he's been able to kind of um kind of uh Express his feelings of anger and hatred towards others you know in in this kind of different way that looks like uh dissociative identity disorder it's not to say that he doesn't have that there's still a possibility right but did is very rare it's it research shows that it's probably um the prevalence of did is probably about one % when I say prevalence I mean that's the proportion of the population that has that particular disorder or or will have that particular disorder in their lifetime whereas bipolar disorder is much more common a mental health problem with between four and 4.5% of people experiencing that problem so you know again it's not to say that he has one or the other he might actually have both but bipolar disorder may have been better explanation of those of those experiences when we left Harvey he'd been in a horrible explosion leaving him horrifically scarred on one side of his body Harvey no um Batman had taken him to the hospital where he sees himself for the first time and then flees the hospital after his loving fiance Grace sees him and faints good right that brings us to 6 months later Harvey is now a full-fledged crime boss but he's not going after innocent people he's specifically going after rert Thorne the mobster who's responsible for not only his scarring but also for his new seemingly permanent identity as too faace right and uh who's along with him the ginger twins Min and Max the the two gingers I like to call them the Archie twins they do look very Archy they look kind of like evil Archies three freckles on each side of the nose just like Arie um you know 11 episodes in and it can't possibly be any more obvious that the writers absolutely loathe redheads or it's possible that they really like redhe heads and want to put them as sort of the most kind of interesting you know poison ivy or maybe it's not even the writers maybe these are the animators the animators hate red heads or love them as interesting villain characters well you know more about technical stuff than I do but is it possible given the color palette and um and the animation you know Hues like maybe that color shows better against these darker backgrounds we don't see very many blondes you know Grace is a blonde but we don't see too many people with yellow hair and that I figure that would be just as popular if not more so than you know throwing a r I'm just trying to throw you bone here well I I appreciate it I'm trying to blame it on the technology yeah so you know uh Twoface enters one of Thorn's bookies places and they hold the place up but only after two face uh uses his trusty silver dollar to tell them to do so right um he's got one silver dollar one side is clean the other side has the three um iconic by this point scratches along the the back of it he flips the coin to determine whether or not they're going to hit the place or not good hits we leave them alone bad hits we hit them hard and of course they end up uh going in and robbing the place um he seems to be unable to make any decisions without flipping this coin Drea as the professional here what do you make of that well let's think about what he was like before um before he experienced his traumatic event okay he he didn't really have these would you say he didn't have these superstitious behaviors right he didn't appear to no I mean the coin the coin flip was something we definitely saw during his therapy session like he always Associated the coin flip to Big Bad har from the nightmare that we saw at the beginning of the episode to the coin flip that he he took on as a showing off big bad Harve in the therapy session it's always sort of been his thing but I don't think he's we've ever seen him in any kind of superstitious yeah you know I I think it represents a lot of things for one he as as two- faase he has a different sense of morality he has a different personality right he seems to rely on this superstitious Behavior this coin flipping before making important decisions as well as like really minor decisions he surprised the ginger twins when he flipped the coin before stealing uh some some big uh they first they they're robbing the place and he uh they find the box of 200 silver dollars he immediately tells them to take that uh but then he flips the coin to determine if they're going to take other money uh and and coin tells them not to right so they don't and they're surprised by it yeah they're very confused by it um and it's because you know he's his superstitiousness isn't logical it doesn't make a lot of sense it's not really based on reasoning it's based on this um very black and white thinking and it's not it's not unrealistic it's certainly sometimes common for folks who have experienced um events that are outside of their control to develop some kind of superstitious um or kind of ritual that they engage in before making an important decision or before even just you know making very very minor decisions because it gives them the sense of control so for for too fac the coin flip could represent that need for control that this is going to help me determine to make every decision you know on the one hand he says I'm leaving this up to fate right on the other he's the one engaging in that act he's the one flipping the coin got so there's this sense of wanting to Take Back Control right interesting uh so like we said earlier two fa is specifically targeting Thorne right over the last six months he's gone after Club 22 Gemini Jewelers uh TW company Cafe all owned by rert thorn and if you notice all twos uh Club 22 uhhuh Gemini twins tw's company Cafe uh this is actually interesting because this was two fa's original shtick in the comics um his his crimes would all be related to the number two just like this so I I think it's pretty cool that the writers of the show worked sort of worked this in what's weird though to me is how rert Thorne also seems to be obsessed with the number two given that these are all his establishments right he owns all these places yeah maybe he was meant to be two-c yeah it it in an alternate reality maybe rubert Thorne is two-c he is obsessed with the with the number two well maybe I would I would actually say in the grand scheme of things rert Thorne could possibly own like 90% of Gotham's well that's not true because Wayne Industries owns 90% Gotham uh but maybe um maybe rert Thorne owns uh a lot of these nightclubs overall and that the ones that that have twos are associated with twos is actually just um a small percentage of of his overall you know ownership maybe it's 2% of his oh nice uh on the on the flip side uh see what I did there I did on the flip side um Bruce is now having nightmares of his own um we started out the first episode yeah with Harvey having a nightmare about big bad Harve and now Bruce is in the back a uh thinking about he's he's going he's reliving the the moment that to fa is blown up or Harvey Dent is blown up and then it even goes back to thoughts about his parents why couldn't you save a son you know he couldn't save Harvey he couldn't save Thomas and Martha right um you know so clearly he blames himself for his old friend Harvey Dent's current state let's talk about Bruce's current condition a little bit well I think what they did with this scene is actually really cool because as you said there's a dream sequence in the first part of uh of the two-c Tarter right and in this one the dream starts out with Harvey um kind of in the dark in Gotham City um he's on a bridge we almost get the sense this is this is Harvey's dream because he is at the center of of the scene yes and then Bruce shows up and there's this um actually really really sad kind of exchange where um Bruce is is essentially feeling like he should have saved Harvey and Harvey actually saying you you saw what was happening you knew something was terribly wrong with me I thought you were my friend you should have been able to help me and then like you said when Thomas and Martha show up they are also saying why couldn't you save your friend Bruce and and then Bruce wakes up and you realize this is Bruce's dream yeah this is his conceptualization of his failures and his inability to help essentially to save his friend's life and then it gets a little creepy Bruce starts in a weird sort of soliloquy so what are you dreaming tonight Harvey peaceful dreams nightmares maybe both at once it's kind of it's kind of weird that was so cool I love that part he's not talking to anyone he's just kind of talking out into the night in his bed it's creepy it's creepy because he hits It's the exact same voice that he uses when he says Harvey no um I've got to think that on the page that was more of an exclamation point but I don't know I don't know it's a it's a creepy moment for me I know I like it I think again you know this show is presumably for young adults and and teens and children and and I think they really just wanted to exemplify that he felt not only did he feel guilty and you know um responsible but he has this sense of hope for his friend right and then at that moment you get the sense that this is about um two people that share something that Bruce is essentially saying he understands what Harvey went through and and he has hope for his friend and even later in the episode he says I still feel that somewhere inside that monster is my old friend so there's this sense of him feeling like he he he shares this you know this there's this commonality between them but also that it's up to him to help his friend that he um he should be able to save him and that despite all these terrible things Harvey's doing there is still some good in him and I think that's an important kind of message that that we're hearing here yeah you know Bruce hasn't given up on him remember Bruce experienced hardships himself and I think that he's pulling in from his own resiliency and feeling like you know I have to I I am constantly saving myself I'm constantly on the verge of going to the bad side right because of the things that I know and the things that I've experienced I've got to get Harvey to the same place as I like to do I'm gonna play devil's advocate here of course is Bruce really interested in Saving Harvey at this point or is Bruce more upset with himself that he couldn't save Harvey like this is this is all sort of it's I don't know it could be taken either way that that he he's going after Harvey to save Harvey his friend or it's in order to complete his own mission and it and thus making it more about Batman and more about Bruce Wayne than about hard right like good has to Prevail right and that's part of the mission I I think there's some truth to some of that yes at some level there is that sense of it is your responsibility to ensure the safety of the people that you love and to protect the people that you love and because of what happened to Harvey transforming into two- fa face you failed at that so yes I do think there's this sense of of Batman's failure yeah it's more about his failure or or maybe not more about his failure but he's certainly feeling his own failure as much as he's feeling the loss of his friend but you know I still think there's this genuine sense of friendship and companionship between him and Harvey and you have to think about what that means to Bruce this is my best friend this is the person that I related to and I might even go so far as to say like this is the only only real connection I've had yeah he doesn't have many friends right and he and what happened to this person this is the kind of person that turned into a villain so what does that say about me if I can't help this person come back to being good-hearted and compassionate again what does that say about me because we were very very close so it goes I think back to that symbolism of Duality you know you have two people who one went to the went to the dark side if I can say and one is still potentially on the good side and you know how is he going to you know how is he going to conceptualize this happening to his friend if he felt very aligned with him interesting so like you said Bruce vows to save Harvey meanwhile Candice Thorn's right-hand woman is disguised as a detective and convinces Den's former love Grace to Signal her should Harvey ever break down and and contact her um we can certainly see where this is going right right uh well Harvey's totally after Thorne and he makes a trip to Thorn's attorney e double day once again playing on the whole double thing um but he gets a file on Thorne that's pretty damning uh in the same way that Thorne had the file on big bat Harve Harvey now has a a file Twoface now has a file on Thorn money laundering payoffs black fail it's all here I'll destroy Thorn with his file just like he destroyed me with mine apparently how that's how you take people down in Gotham City yeah get their file yeah uh it's it's all in a man folder you know it's unethical to steal people's files right it's unethical to steal anything from from what I understand uh unfortunately though Batman has clearly figured out that Twoface would be headed here and he attempts to stop him um and appeals to the inner Harvey Dent by using grace as a little bit of a trigger what about Grace Grace which has a great impact on on too faace you you can see him struggling with this idea and again just like they did with the first episode at the very end in this episode he'll turn like Harvey will turn his good face yeah toward um you know whoever he's speaking with if if that's the sense that he's feeling maybe he's feeling Compassion maybe he's feeling um like he misses Grace maybe he's feeling that love and and so they'll they'll just show that side of his face and then when he becomes angry and vengeful again they'll show his his two- faace face right yeah the directors are very good about about this sort of reveal the the Turning of the of the good face and the bad face it's it's really nicely done unfortunately though it doesn't work um Batman's knocked onc conscious and he's awoken later by the janitor so basically Batman must not look very menacing or mythical to this guy who's sweeping the hallways um this guy's totally over it if anybody ever brings up the Batman he'll be like hey remember that time that I woke him up in the hallway with my mop um man's use of Grace has clearly gotten to Harvey though uh because he ends up calling her and he tells her where she can find him uh and she meets him at once again playing on the twos the wild Deuce to casino um take a shot by the way this this could totally be a drinking game this this any if you pass any place in Gotham City that whose name is something off the number to take a shot except you'd be dead within 22 minutes of this episode it's a lot it's a lot of shots that counts by the way 22 minutes what if you take two shots oh oh oh oh bad Grace meets too face and eventually she um nearly convinces him that she could what if you make it a double oh that's what I yeah there we go how long did it take me to get from Two Shots you know twice as long as as it would anyone else oh like I said great grace meets up with uh two fa and she she even nearly convinces him uh I think that that they could be together I love you [Music] great here's the problem though she actually signaled to the person that she thought was a detective MH and what happens the Archy twins show up and fall forward very Raiders of the Lost St Style well the they the door opens and you see the Archie twins sort of just standing there and then they flop forward because yeah I mean I think just like just like the guy at the beginning of Raiders lost art the guy who first betrays him who's been hit by all the hovitos poison darts just Falls straight forward yeah but you get the sense um can I I mean I kind of feel like they've is this the first time we've seen characters in btas like actually get killed I don't know I don't know if they're they look like they're they don't fight anymore we don't see them anymore they leave the frame and we're done with them as far as I'm concerned gingers are dead two of them and they the first they are the first two that we have seen die we haven't even seen flashbacks of Thomas and Martha being shot we've only seen them post death the gingers are killed in front of us um well okay let's let's remember let's go back to what the room is set up as because um I think it's kind of interesting heart too faace actually describes why the room looks like it is when Grace enters it you have one side which is very well lit organized neat tidy clean the other side is how would you describe that it's dark it's chaotic it's menacing there's webs and you know it's clearly not been used in a long right it it's it is the left side of his face right and he explains this is very deliberate a dichotomy of Order and Chaos and that's how he sees his world that's how he sees himself that he's um these two extreme people that in a way I mean I know that we've talked about the two- fac has taken over and he only has one personality I don't think that's true I think that he struggles with these feelings of anger and Vengeance and hate and he also struggles with feelings of compassion and wanting to help other people and wanting wanting to have healthy relationships right and he's kind of stuck between negotiating the two that he cannot reconcile those two very extreme feelings and so he decides then I'm going to live in both dichotomies I'm going to live with these two extreme Lifestyles and um you know as we see it it doesn't work out too well for him right yeah CU Thorne shows up and the whole thing ends uh as any good Batman the Animated Series episode should with a big brawl between Twoface and Thorns guys and Batman and uh Batman eventually shows up and and uh eventually two fa is put into a position where he could kill Thorne let the law handle it the law here's the only law the law of averages the great equalizer Batman uses the the 200 silver dollars that they stole from the bookie earlier to uh to confuse Dent he throws them at him makes it rain makes it rain um he confuses Dent Dent can't find his coin uh so he can't determine whether he should kill Thor or Not by the way this was used at the end of Batman Forever this this exact bit when we see Tommy Lee Jones oh really flipping the coin I blocked that movie Out of My Mind Batman throws a bunch of them and uh that's you know two face can't catch them he he's like trying to figure out where his coin is he falls to his death even like the coolest part of that movie dare I say was not original was a ripoff of this episode we can certainly say now that that as as we've talked about there are these um pretty stable uh characteristics of particular villains and and and heroes and that uh with this one you have the these expectations that there's a certain there's a certain way that that we expect Harvey D to behave and and I think that we find that consistency yeah here in the Animated Series so in the end Harvey is carded off by folks one of which uh appears to be in a hospital uniform so I guess he's on his way to Arkham Asylum yeah probably now what's interesting to me is is that now that that twoof face exists no one really treats this like a case of dissociative identity disorder anymore um what I mean by that is is when appealing to Harvey um neither Batman nor Grace for that matter ask to speak to Harvey the same way that the therapist did or or what these two characters appear to be one and the same so doesn't this lean toward Twoface going back into the realm of the bipolar disorder where he's he's no longer thought of as two separate characters he is one guy who struggles with two different well possibly but remember that in the first part we were kind of seeing these episodes you know we called them manic episodes because um he was experiencing these mood States these elevations in mood where he was very irritable and angry and not like himself you know people were saying you're you're really not like yourself right in the second part we're not really seeing these vast mood swings these ups and downs we're we're just seeing this kind of you know this constant um we are seeing though that he's still struggling between his um you know his Harvey Dent versus Two-Face emotional state that Twoface is violent and and lacks empathy and is out for vengeance and and will murder whereas Harvey is compassionate cares about Grace cares about Bruce Wayne and I think that both of those sides are are there now it's last episode you said that the therapy would actually would actually try to get two identities to come together to coexist it seems to me that that now that the anger has come out now that Harvey is no longer bottling up this anger Twoface actually seems much more reasonable a person than Harvey ever did or that or big bad Harve ever did you know that that now they are both living together they are one person one would even suggest that now that he's scarred and and this villain he's probably closer to psychologically speaking he's probably closer to a whole human again right well we said that you know the objective of therapy would be to try to integrate those different parts of the self as much as possible to make a meaningful whole right um and now he's kind of that he's kind of that meaningful ho I mean he struggles with both sides but we all do we do but not not all of us experience this incredibly um incredibly lifechanging physical and emotional trauma and I think that's where we have to look at the complexity of his experiences and his you know kind of history that he's he's essentially he's gone through this serious lifethreatening trauma and that left him with emotional and physical scars so you know it's almost like we've now added we've potentially added a post-traumatic stress response to everything that we've just been talking about which is perfect because once Harvey is taken away to Arkham yeah what are those doctors going to do to this guy I mean between the trauma and the disorders uh or potential disorders how are they treating him yeah that's a great question he's the first step would be a very thorough evaluation to understand understand how does how did that trauma impact him so it almost becomes a very primary objective to understand the meaning of that traumatic experience because um I think as we've talked about before in the show that a trauma has um potentially a number of different Pathways that could follow so somebody could experience a trauma and develop post-traumatic stress disorder someone could experience a trauma and develop depression someone could develop a substance abuse disorder right someone could actually grow from that experience and become quite resilient and um you know turn their life around completely and become um Batman B right now you're saying Batman's healthy and resilient whereas before no I'm saying no I'm saying you're saying Batman's I see that would have been where I would go is Batman who has experienced hardships and is able to um you know kind of transform that into a resilient process and be pro-social so Find meaning from that trauma so you would we would want to understand what what does that you know I'm specifically talking about the explosion that was caused by rert Thorne you have to look at the way that Harvey Dent would look at this this was not an accident somebody caused me um a life-threatening um you know somebody caused this life-threatening event that could have killed me but left me disfigured um ruined my relationship with my best friend and my fiance and lost me one like the most important job in this town right so all of that and his mission I mean his his his mission in life was to clean up Gotham City and now he can't now he can only be one of the menaces of Gotham City exactly and so you know I I I think people know this but I want to draw people's attention toward the possibility that a physical trauma that that our body being physically changed um possibly being disfigured you know and let's broaden this to like losing limbs um having um brain injuries having um you know physical impairments all those types of of of possible physical traumas those indeed can cause psychological consequences and psychological conditions where people begin to um develop very different behaviors and motivations right so let's talk about real cases of did um two of the most famous cases of course are those of Shirley Ardell Mason and Christine Cosner seore now is that one person uh it is it is two people take a shot um Mason was the woman who the public knows as cibil ah civil right um and seore is the woman who's life was was written into the book uh the three faces of Eve um both of course were made into movies as well books and and movies um so now now it's interesting civil is the case uh that's probably one of the most controversial because it's widely speculated that her psychiatrist uh Dr Wilbur may have inadvertently created her 16 personalities through the uses of sodium penthol and hypnosis MH uh so basically through heavy drugs and direct suggestion this psychiatrist may have actually created her multiple personalities um that's that's sort of what a lot of people in the in in your field um think about this particular case um she actually went off afterward and had several years where she never had any symptoms of this disorder uh so much so that when she died eventually of breast cancer the people in her community found out that she was the civil and had no idea you know they were completely shocked to find out that this was the person who supposedly had these 16 um multiple personalities um Christine cner seore on the other hand was believed to have had as many as 20 different personalities uh the book that was written about her life by her therapists of course um suggested that her altars were basically fragmented from her real identity um what they're like different parts of her real yeah based on based on traumas from from early life she created these alternate identities however um since her identity was eventually released to the public um postbook Host movie um she has written her own book uh I am Eve and in fact she's actually a very successful author now um but she insists that her personalities existed prior to her birth and are just as much a part of who she is as she is like she she is convinced that these personalities all exist in one body essentially um explain that prior to her like these are all personalities of different people yeah yes she she is under the impression and I'm not going to say she's right or wrong but she's under the impression that she has these personalities within her not based on or not as a result of a trauma or some effect in her life that caused a fractured identities she was born with as many as 20 identities and they just share the body I see essentially okay um now you know I'm not the professional I just I just read stuff um what's interesting to me though is that this is a disorder that's basically based on my research it's kind of limited to North America uh with only a few cases reported in Britain um none of the Eastern cultures like China India Japan uh have have reported cases of these the it's pretty much solely a western culture disorder and what's even weirder is that prior to the publication of the book that made it famous Civil um there were only supposedly 200 cases of what would later become dissociative identity disorder uh in all of recorded medical history it was after the publication though uh according to one AR article that I read by the 9s there were as many as 20,000 to 30,000 cases diagnosed so it seems like it's kind of a a fad like you know once once we find out about it everybody's got it well you know I hear what you're saying and I'm reluctant to agree with any mental health condition as being a fad but I understand what you're saying that the same thing is happening right now with adult ADHD whereas as we are able now to learn about the neurobiology and the neurochemistry of the brain and the impact and effectiveness of certain medications we're finding that more and more adults are coming forward and saying they have ADHD right whereas decades ago nobody was saying that um or fewer folks were saying that so I understand what you're saying which is as more information is made public and is as as more research is um is exploring this condition the prevalence of this particular problem goes up and that's a certainly a complex product of you know actual neurobiology culture um reduction of stigma around mental illness as well as um unfortunately the I think the immediacy of wanting a diagnosis for unexplained symptoms which I I think you know we're going back to Harvey Dent if we see that first episode and we see that therapeutic exchange um where he you know he turns into Harvey D immediately we're like oh he has multiple personalities and we don't explore the possibility that he's in this acceptable cultural environment where he can now be the kind of angry bad self that he wants to be and so he's allowed himself to go there and to be this other person I'm not saying he doesn't have did but I'm saying there's another explanation for that kind of um multiple personality presentation um the the interesting thing I mean did is very debatable um I know I've read a couple of studies where you know there would be a number of people who have um who have the diagnosis of did and they'll do these brain studies they'll you know put them on medication they'll go through therapy um there's not a lot of these studies but the ones I've read interestingly um the majority if not all of these patients have histories of childhood trauma interestingly the majority of these patients if not all of them have an on like a a co-occurring other psychiatric problem so it's not just did it's also bipolar disorder it's also um you know some other major mental illness it's almost like did isn't and I realize it is in your Manual of disorders but it's almost like did isn't necess neily a disorder as much as it is maybe a symptom of lots of disorders coming together that is probably the smartest thing you've said throughout this entire series because it only took 11 episodes here and here's why because you know I said the majority if not all of these patients experience childhood trauma what happens to us when we experience a difficult hardship or trauma especially in childhood we develop this dissociative um kind of response to it so I want to be very clear dissociation is very real people who have um been assaulted people who have been raped people who have undergone you know incredibly serious traumas will actually have this sort of um like Amnesia following that trauma it could be a simple thing like not being able to understand parts of that trauma parts of that traumatic experience or could be even more severe like developing um this inability to remember parts of One Life one's life sorry so it's very consistent then with with that process that then on rare occasion somebody might develop these alter egos where there's no recollection at all about an entire personality um and we can look at that as an Adaptive process so does that mean they really truly don't have an understanding or or cognitive awareness of the other altars you know I don't know remember essentially nothing is known about the neurobiology of did right so there's no explanation for that um those multiple personalities but I think the best one is kind of what you said that this may be you know this dissociative process is a symptom of something else and I think that's probably a really good explanation of why we have um you know very rare cases of people just presenting with all of these multiple personalities and more so what we what we often find are complex psychiatric presentations with these additional kind of dissociative experiences gotcha cool so okay it's time for questions from our listeners as always uh if you have questions for Drea you can find us on Twitter we are at Arkham sessions on Twitter and you can find us on Facebook look for the Arkham sessions there follow us like us do all that and then ask your questions this week's question is from at owly um he asks do you think Harvey's bipolar condition was an intentional or conscious decision he made to cope with his scars I think so I I think that's probably um a good explanation and remember his his worldview is completely different now you know like before his before his trauma he was struggling with the you know his inability to control his anger and his you know need to um really to protect the city right um and then after his trauma it's as if he experienced this shift in his worldview and we can understand that right we've talked about trauma can shift our core beliefs our schema and what his worldview is now is um people will hurt you people will take advantage of you the world is unsafe unless you take control unless you are the one flipping that coin and making the decisions and taking control you are the one who's going to get hurt and people are going to take things away from you things that you love like your friend your job and your fiance so I feel like this is his way Toof face is his way of you know just really taking that control and it Sur you know I think it certainly does represent his world view now cool thank you at owly once again you can find us on Twitter we're at Arkham sessions and over on Facebook we are the Arkham sessions so come find us and say hi and stuff so that's it for me Doc you got anything you want to add there actually is something that I really liked about these two episodes and I want to say this now because I know we're moving on to another villain um another story in the next episode of the Animated Series so and we're pretty much wrapping up to face for now and I know we'll we'll return to him but um there are these moments where Bruce Wayne um really shows his his feelings of compassion and and I even want to say like hopelessness about the situation with his friend and there are times when he uh the writers um will show him wanting to reach out to help him and that's very realistic that happens to a lot of us when a friend is experiencing um some kind of hardship and maybe even a mental illness and we're feeling very hopeless about the situation and we want them to get help and so that that part again the show really Champions and validates the idea of receiving help for mental health problems so I I don't know if anyone felt the same way about the show and they're in that same spot a family member a friend colleague um is struggling and you want them to get help I would recommend going to the website abc.org it is the association for Behavioral and cognitive therapies and that site provides a lot of resources for how to receive um interventions Psychotherapy and a lot of important literature about uh a lot of what we're talking about on the show so that's a great place if um you know if folks are feeling like they want more information and they'd like to share that information with um somebody that they care about where there's love there's hope commissioner Okay cool so join us next week for our next episode involving a war between mob bosses guess who's back rert Thorne yay I thought they got him they did but apparently they don't keep him quite as long as they do Too Faced oh um this one's called it's never too late and that's on next week's docket of the Arkham sessions till then you can find me on Twitter I'm ATB w028 Drea where can they find you at Arkham Asylum doc on Twitter perfect so look for us there and join us next week till then I'm Brian Ward I'm Dr Andrea letamendi thanks for listening gang [Music] bye [Music]