but it's prime time for for m a as we've already seen the first half of this year what are these existing producers what are these choirs actually looking for people don't want to buy ounces for the sake of ounces they want ounces with a profitable margin but the thing that we do with Bankers mate is we throw some darts at the dartboard and have a punt some some potential deals for predictions because there is a chance I'll come true I like throwing the darts when you know where the dartboard is already I've got a few ideas some of them a bit left field but I think in this market there is some serious value plays that would be too good not to consider Marty miners welcome to Thursday 17th of August and well Jada is not here but we decided to fill the void trough hey mate oh how exciting we have a very special highly qualified intern you'd say ah just decider does join us doesn't do it justice we've actually upgraded JD into a just smarter and much more capable um colleague for the day bloody ass right we would like to introduce not the Ali G but the way you have a oh from X Argonaut foam on a bit of a bit of a Hiatus in life and has decided to come join the money of mine team Ali welcome to the crew Legend no good day boys thanks for having me oh pleasure thank you for uh thanks for for gracing us with your presence and uh also with the limoncello that we just had that was divine so Alex got a rule but uh she doesn't do any public speaking before get uh without getting on the piss before so it was one shot of lemon cello bit of home brew but a bit of lemon Rocket Fuel just to take the edge off it would partake ourselves Ricky Oh I thought I'd say too and for um for contacts for the money miners uh yeah JD and I both started our careers at um at Argonaut Ali worked in the corporate finance team there uh with me for for a couple years and she when I joined Maddie I knew absolutely fucking nothing um Ali was a person that made my work not shit before it would be reviewed from a director so a strong history of making me look smarter and I hope she continues that Trend by joining us on the podcast today mate no worries and we're pretty stoked to have her here right and and she's put in the bloody hard yards for the episode too she might be a long way because she's made up for all the lack of research I do yeah but uh yeah right and also just just done that too and bloody congratulations Al for um taking a career break I think you know in our in our profession a lot of people don't think that's an option but it is and uh absolutely I think it's a pretty courageous thing to do so good on you no thank you the job of job of low pay here for you that's right well it's about the hardest I've worked in the last three months it's good what a big show today guys and girls well God God we've got the we've got a bit of bitter info on the Delta cross trade Min res being confirmed but we'll get into that we've got Capital Rising Galore we've got the lion Town contract uh being awarded the big Infamous underground one uh you've got to go into a bit of maker in a maker better maker and uh look it's a bloody exciting episode can't wait right before we get into it the the partners and now talk about being pertinent to Our Guest today JP search which I play search corporate recruiting you'd say yes recruiting the high flies the people that drive the finance industry now JP search Xavier Michael we are Hawking out our uh host on tonight we'd like to introduce to Ali everyone bulk amount of investment banking and equity research experience um and look an absolute absolute treasure you you that you would want in your organization now look she is available for employment at the moment now JP search we would like to propose possibly a little ticket clipping if this is successful in addition to the partnership fee that you do pay us I think that will be fair wouldn't it travel if any if anyone can find a bloody uh a job fair for Ali to be Xavier and Michael the only issue might be Ali Ali um is is too good for everywhere mate so uh genuine credibility there's a bit of a you'd say take over premium attached I see Ali as the Capricorn of the finance industry she trades at a premium right up cheers JP search for your Partnerships and uh call me directly if you would like to employ Ali that ticket right on muddy miners here we go first up Min res are confirmed as the buyer of the Delta lithium shares the big crosstride that happened at the end of the day the other day yeah now what was it 11 of the company they were yeah and and we can see now in there um you know uh the the announcement on the ASX that Min res now have a 14.24 interest in Delta um so I mean you know we we we thankfully got that one right and don't have to apologize for getting something wrong on that one Maddie but I did see this tweet up from Chucky and I picked my interest he said 11.5 percent of our Delta crosses two weeks before shareholders ratify item mitsu placement and approved KMP termination benefit so there's a shareholder meeting in two weeks time and shareholders are voting on the ratification of the shares issued to idemitsu and some you know um some Key Management Personnel benefits the question I had reading that was um what does it mean if if minerals devoted to against ratifying the shares to autumnitzu and who better to ask mate than um Ali because she has done her fair share of equity transactions in her course I actually said to Ali this morning like does would minors actually have any strategic interest in blocking the ratification of shares issued to Delta what's what the fuck's the goal Ali so so ratification basically means that there are essentially approving to reset the listing rule 71.1 placement capacity and I don't think it would be uh in minres's interest to prevent that from happening because it essentially reduces the ability to for Delta to quite simply and easily raise money um so for me I think it's coincidental um that this is around the same time but I don't believe there's any strategic um stay stay tuned obviously a bit more happening in this Adele Delta's uh definitely been in the news after the little uh High share price for diggers now it went back up and oh it's all it's all over the shop so plenty happening in the flannel quarters right core lithium well 100 million dollar fully underwritten placement plus a 20 million dollar share purchase plan at 40 cents per share to fund growing right well I said well we're saying funding Growing Pains at Fitness you could read that the real use of funds of that equation I think when you know when a developer having a bit of ramp up issues raising money you always just look at that use of funds with a bit of a uh okay sort of sort of experience you never quite really believed what the use of funds is on those sort of um Equity raises 20 26 discount to the last close 30 30 discount to uh to V whaps which is 30 just seems to be the norm for Capri's discounts in this car and Equity Market it appears uh maybe maybe just because all the people raising money and raising money because they're fucking up well let's okay let's let's Bridge into it they are in production they they obviously had a poor poor recovery last quarter sub uh due to the increased amount of fines because they're a DM mess circuit only they do not have a flotation part to their Mill why would they need a hundred million dollars now that they're in production and already have cash on the balance sheet yeah I I think this is it's just a like we could go down a rabbit hole talking about core we kind of have before I don't really want to rehab the conversation it's um like the the I just think they fit the broader theme at the moment of um troubled equity raisings and and you know this is this is like case in point one to point two um that's that speaks to it it's like they you know you could see in the the numbers that they came out with before this Equity raise that they were ultimately um saying that their Opex is way higher because they were having to you know all the haulage associated with their um the fines that had to transport that back that was infected in it's the epitome of um understudied uh like the study was was not done to the standard that you know a lot of people would have liked to see in asset going to production and now they're really you know paying the price for that by way of um trying to faster Market but maybe maybe not doing things as thoroughly as they should have been done before you are get to Market because then you have to bloody do the studying while you're producing and that's very costly exercise Maddie and I think we could because you think of okay are they going to put is this money going to be put towards a flotation circuit on the back end to try and increase their recovery and to deal with these fines but look a couple of people I've spoken to is that they core doesn't know if putting the flotation circuit on the back end is the solution or they were looking at changing great sizes because it seems like the speed to Market that core was trying for they got to Market quickly but it possibly was at the detriment of fully understanding the Metallurgy fully understanding The Ore body of where this fines distribution is so it doesn't and 100 million bucks wouldn't build a flotation circuit I don't think I'd say it might be a bit more than that possibly yeah so right now they mentioned that there's the Tesla thing as well Trav yeah potential baked into potential legal claim page 18 of the investor Press today uh core lithium disclose that is received correspondence from Tesla in relation to the binding term sheet that otherwise expired on October 2022 that it intends to Avail itself of all available legal remedies to the extent the party's unable to mutually resolve this up without litigation so make it that what you will will flash that one up on the screen for people to interpret as they choose right a few other Equity Rises yeah floating around there are especially in the nickel world yeah I think I think we'll group them together because some of these we didn't talk about when they happened because we were too pissed at diggers um but but you saw like in the last few weeks you've seen Centaurus raised 47 million bucks uh London raised 18 million bucks Poseidon race 6 million bucks and what all of those companies have in common they're all nickel developers raising money at you know either at 12 month lows or very close to 12 month lows um which is an interesting position to be in and and in some cases they're they're a big Quantum and when you're raising a big Quantum at a you know low relative share price are you doing that because you have a negative outlook for where things are going in the nickel price into the future and you're trying to you know have decent reserves before that happens I don't know I don't know what to read that one Maddie but um just another thing to notice there so and 29 we'll go into 29 a bit Trav because there was that eye for IFR article that said they were going to raise and now that article's been withdrawn this was so far off straight talk very odd super fascinating mate um yeah yesterday afternoon AFR published an article saying 29 medals were uh you know sounding Out funds to raise money that article was taken down a few hours later the reports in the AFR were that 29 metals were raising U.S 100 million bucks at 40 cents per share now today 29 medals are actually trading today and the stock's down four percent and so aftermarket open they actually come out with an announcement a one-page release saying uh that the article incorrectly suggested Brokers were sounding fund managers for an equity race I find it really intriguing that 29 medals yeah point to the similarity in that article to a previous article from Street Talk on the same day um now mate we just mentioned core rate call lithium raises money 100 million bucks at 40 cents per share so there's some analogies to the uh Equity race but when I read that street talk article about 29 medals it wasn't it didn't appear like it was written as an accident there was some very you know detailed references to EMR and a whole bunch of stuff like it was it like I think this one page announcement out from 29 medals is painting it to look like it was accidentally written with their um their title but you know that article was absolutely written about 29 medals whether it was run accurately or not I don't know but um yeah we've certainly we on the money of my team we've absolutely made the case that we think they have a funding shortfall which needs to be addressed well as you said it's going to look pretty silly if they retract it and then end up raising money next week yeah so right burn cut get the underground contract at Kathleen Valley go and talk about it very talked about underground contract maybe that was just me talking about it but uh look it was uh it's been in the news for a while because it's one of the biggest underground mining contracts in Australia so they've it's a one billion dollar contract over four years so that one billion is essentially what burnt couple invoice limetown so that's a 1 billion over four years and that that is at the higher end you called this Maddie the uh burn cut getting the contract yeah I don't know if I actually really listened to my snippet from the previous episode I didn't explicitly say it but I did say it would be between them and bar mink I was as big a contracts to take on something this size and pure and purely for the reason because it says in the announcement the burn cut will commit 125 million dollars for new plant and Equipment that's over that four year period so that's 125 million of you'd say capex that burn cut have to put in to supply that contract so it's sort of like a mining company building a small Mill so it's a big it's a big big commitment so yeah right um oh because you'd put it in similarities to burn Cuts contracts at sort of Cara patina and uh prominent Hill that sort of size I think that's about around the size let's big big contract lots of times lots of jumbos uh on the higher end of what we see in Australian underground mining so do you think it's good news for burn card or bad news that they win that contract cried great news great yeah great news especially and especially if they execute on it oh it's obviously uh I don't know how the contract's set up and what the who's got who's the risk of um things don't perform but they are the company that for the job very professional establishment it does pose the question about what are the funding Dynamics for lion Town though doesn't it yes very much so because oh well I've got a bit to go through here but I'll fast forward to that bit specifically Trav because we did say some comments from Jardin our great friends at Jardin I'll tell you what Johnny bishop and Benny Lyons like I'm just letting you know Lads I'm looking into the camera you pass My Bromance filters absolute Jason you've got to stop saying good friends because people confuse Friends of the Pod with actual foes of the Pod so we can't say friends for actual friends with with yeah we've got to reserve friends for not friends yes well okay so looking at a bit of their I guess they're researching their model that they've put in so uh they originally so in the 2021 day Fest the unit cost for unit cost per ton was at 45 bucks a ton so that's the that's the operating cost that doesn't include any sustaining capital and jardin's underground unit cost assumptions they've been lifted from their previous they added at a hundred dollars a ton and now it's gone up to 130 a ton based on this contract value but that includes sustaining Capital it hasn't been split out so I think they anticipate that once the sustaining Capital gets split out it might drop back to 100 so and we look we saw a lot of commentary and from Bill in develops quarterly talking about uh the sort of the increased scope over time so look with the with the funding Gap um because what it's a predicted about 350 million yeah there are various estimates out there and keep in mind when limetown was like I think one number one on number two most shorted stocks on the ASX that was people predicting the funding Gap there and they ended up getting bloody squeezed they show results when when the bids were revealed from albums back down to two bucks 50 today I think yeah um look kind of quarter predicted that 90 mil is gonna 90 mil pre-tax cash flow is going to come from the DSO so definitely to do so it's definitely not going to cover the funding Gap so you look at the increased scope and I'm going to go through it also the increased scope and the increased operating unit operating cost to get all the dirt out and get all the motors that is going to chew into the working capital and and that Kappa shortfall so you can anticipate that it is possibly going to be more than 350 excluding the DSO so um the run the the Run rates being another interesting one so let's look at the 2021 DFS you can look at it here they were going to reach the 4 million ton run rate about at about 2029 so looking at their lightest present presentation it says you know they've got two two separate mining areas two million tonne per annum each um as I said Bill's comments about the increasing scope and look what I've heard is that that four million tonne per annum run rate is being pulled forward significantly it's not not going to be 2029 it's uh going to be going to be much sooner so they're starting at 3 million ton so look you can just see how the how it's all um yeah how much the Scopes increase since that 2021 DFS so it's a look it's just a whether it's three million ton or four million tonne that's a that's a big operation that is purely reliant on diesel haulage fleets so you can then I would it's got a note about like 20 trucks in an underground mine so with this electrification thing I'd be I'd be anticipating that they'd be looking at they'd have to be looking at alternative haulage strategies that can utilize electricity because you can't use electric trucks going up a decline just choose the shit out of the battery now you've chucked in a photo of a bloody monorail I'm having flashbacks to the bloody Simpsons I tell you it looks like the monorail needs to go around darling Harbor so what's going on here yeah looking at a bit of radio it appears because it appears Canada is like running a bit ahead of Australia in terms of like electric haulage of material so to have a check out these bloody setups so these are like electric bloody monorails and electric locomotive sort of setups so yeah you can see one that's an underground mine underground one there there's like there's another electric conveyor system so whether they're going to actually look at sort of going down the road of setting something like that up because you know 20 trucks requires 20 people each day to drive those trucks so there's you know a lot of that's potentially 60 60 to 70 truck drivers across the whole crew on a two-in-one roster um and you're using a lot of diesel and a lot of very reliant on people people make mistakes you can't rely on them because if they bloody go on a bender on break they won't turn up to work that doesn't happen with locomotives so yes we've we've talked about the the funding Gap but I guess I want to touch on what are we going to see on ramp up here because this is a big big operation so there is a shitload of people working extremely hard to get this all happening there's so many moving Parts there's a lot more people that need to be hired in the process as well right so well I think it's about six or seven hundred people would burn cuddle need to supply that contract that's enormous that's a massive inner hiring effort yes a lot and it's kind of that pinches pinches people from other operations you take the risk of getting newer people less experienced people and there's a lot of high physicals that they're going after achieve so look the risks for this ramp up first up you've got the jumbo development so remember Kathleen Valley is right next door to Bellevue so we know Bellevue it's very publicized that they experience very hard ground conditions and now we Chuck spodium in the mix as well so because hard ground that's gives you the slow drilling penetration it's tough on consumables slows the development they've got a lot of development to achieve I think it's like seven to nine jumbos and then you put spodium in once they get into the all body spodium is extremely abrasive they we talked about that at the pill gangora trip Trav so look it's quicker to drill through but very high wear on the drill bits and the consumables so you're always stopping changing bits um yeah a lot of that's that's a that's one sort of that's your first that's the first part of the puzzle is getting the development in then you've got the haulage so as I said pulling three to four million ton out five diesel haulage big job lots of congestion underground you're getting a lot less efficiency for every extra truck yard on if I go down the road of look the electric locomotives or roll systems or to try and Implement that in parallel with maintaining all the dirt coming out it's hard to concurrently conduct those activities yeah then the mill the mill so bill gangora they talked about talking about what 18 months to sort of fine tune their meal to get their recoveries this optimization optimizing and to get it to where it is so Kathleen Valley has a pace plan on the back of theirs to feed the underground Bill gangora don't it's an open pit they don't need it so it's an extra stage of the process that you have to have the mill running smoothly to produce the tailings to then feed the paste plant to then backfill the underground Stripes to then bring on the next Stipe to provide order food to Mill Dynamite it's just a big bloody Circle that goes around yeah take one chain out travel alley she's a bloody big ball of fuck that's all it is so it's a lot of fragile there's a lot of moving Parts a lot of moving parts and like as I said there's a lot of people working extremely hard to execute this don't want to take anything away from anyone that's doing it because it is a massive massive job so we'll just say let's let's look at the album I'll build bid there was talks of Gene getting involved God that was BHP got a mention in the paper the other day they are they're going to look at it because it's just down the road from Mount Keith to try and get my possible extra nickel land to explore do you reckon they're just going to sit on their hands and wait for potential ramp up issues and maybe possibly lob a bid if the value of lion Town goes down what are your thoughts yeah that's that's if they let it get to ramp up I think um there's like a view that if if this funding gap which the Brokers are pointing to uh is real then sometimes you'll see a bit of a myself anticipating that just you know given those the the hedgy dynamic that we talked about um in the past so you know if you see if you see the share price come off a bit would any of those parties be opportunistic in that context and or would you know because you don't have to wait for ramp up issues to lob a bid maybe you can um maybe you can just wait for a a share price to come off in anticipation of a funding Gap what's your thoughts Al and I think and in this market the the funding Gap is going to happen right um and for some reason that it doesn't um there'll most likely be ramp up issues there's just been an issue that's been prevalent across the market across Commodities so I think they'll either be one if not two points in time where one of these Majors can come in and grab it it's going to be very interesting but why do you think that why did are they waiting for a bid so they don't have to worry about filling the funding Gap Al is that what you reckon potentially it's easier get someone else to do the hard yards and then pick it up yeah good stuff oh Jesus I need a Bloody breath after that Maddie's back right next up wa gold sector M and I or I have a feeling is this where Ali's taking the ball by the hornsey absolutely I've missed my banking days too much oh like we're happy to fill the void for you right and get you a job JP search fabulous [Laughter] what's the word on the decline mate well I mean there's been a fair amount of activity this year anime now that we're at the sort of past the halfway mark diggers and dealers has come and gone I think it's a good time to sort of reflect of well what is actually the landscape here and particularly looking at those undeveloped uh assets so Advanced explorers and developers so you've got to look at all of the bloody the deals that have happened this year in that space and what did you what'd you pick up there and did you tell us which ones you predicted out or didn't predict any of these ones but they I mean there has been a few I mean there's been a Mr Rivera's uh Brightstone King West merger the Catalyst acquiring Van Gogh and Superior Pancho and tulla finally uh nallsman has been Consolidated brought back to BrightStar and King West you'd never predict that they're not even bloody clothes surely and then you've got the uh the Battle of uh Leonora that ultimately saw Genesis acquire the Saint Barbara uh Leonora assets did they talk about that no no not too much you'd have to refresh me on that one and then of course you've got the uh ever active remelius the Chrome both uh breaker and in uh and Musgrave as well which is still in progress within a couple of months yeah so um today I think 37.3 or something yes over a third of the way there so um and there's a fair bit of themes going on at the minute I mean the big end of town Trev what's going on there yeah yeah and it's a good question to ask right like what are the one of the themes driving some of the activity I I try and look zoom out as much as possible um and then you'll zoom into the to the uh the wa space which is a bit more relevant but if if I like zoom out to the the mega miners I think like you see um the large gold Mages trying to increase their exposure to the premium jurisdictions like and then they're decreasing their exposure to the uh non-premium jurisdictions I.E Africa like look at look at B2 gold right um and everyone thinks that BJ gold is an African Miner they've got Assets in other sort of you know high risk jurisdictions as well but they just marked their entry into Canada via one billion takeover of Sabina and even Kinross like another one that you know fits the same sort of category of being high-risk jurisdiction Gold Miner they spent two billion dollars you know buying great beer um in Canada as well so the other thing too that I think you notice a lot in that high-end um or the large producing space is gold companies are buying copper assets and copper companies now like Barrack bid first Quantum that's insane uh you know the second largest gold miner in the world bidding first Quantum like um and that just meets that theme of uh you know Newmont they've been doing this for for ages I've got copper exposure um Harmony gold bought Eva copper project in Queensland not that long ago um you know new grass for a long time have had these copper credits as part of their uh portfolio too yeah to Emerald they got to get an Australia exposure now too right yeah yeah yeah exactly yeah not not a copper one there but they are they do fit the category of yeah like being trying to go longer on the premium during sections and showed her on the um on The Not So premium jurisdictions and then you you had a look at the themes as they relate to the wa in particular gold space Ellie what do you what do you pick up when you look there yeah so I mean after sort of knocking out a few uh in that category there seems to be a real scarcity of quality undeveloped gold projects in wa and my uh Googling seemed to identify only 17 that are listed on the ASX that are single asset companies that have over in a million ounce gold resource which and not necessarily all of them are that great hey you use Google to scroll I don't know anymore terrible and and then the other thing you got going on is that gold developer valuations are trying to get the absolute low I mean we're particularly with interest rates and inflation blowing out capex budgets and things like that and that's meant that there's been a serious disparity between Capital available for develop developers compared to producers so it's very hard now as we've seen echoed by all the people you've interviewed as well that getting money for juniors is hard and probably getting harder the time and cost to build new resources has increased significantly in the last two years and there's been an extremely uh poor track record of developers ramping up into production which is really hampered invested a sentiment particularly on the equity side so you see one of that that rewrite that comes as you advance in production but they just got buddy right getting getting the production day right and then so you've got all these investors talking to producers and so the equity raising for gold companies just absolutely come off versus producers who are making heaps Bank added perhaps all-time uh High gold price and just building War chests yeah yeah it's a fascinating Dynamic right and the other the other ones that I I sort of thought of when I was looking at the the local space was the um the producers like you know the mid-tier producers the reserves life of their current assets are getting shorter and shorter as they that in some cases they're just processing stockpiles and they're not investing in capital because it's a cash flow thing they need to be demonstrating positive cash flow to shareholders and the way you do that is reduce spend on Capital process stock price so lower reserves life and that's led to I think a bit more of a trend to um to to increase reserves like via buying instead of drilling and the other theme is um there's a little bit of Mill underutilization I think which in some cases or it's not not optimized I mean it's not optimized it might be produced it might be processing lower grade answers which could be displaced if you had more consolidation hmm and we talked about there's too many bloody Mills in the Murchison pretty much at the moment way too many so I mean like that not enough gold but so really for existing producers um it's prime time for for m a as we've already seen the first half of this year and so what do what are these existing producers what are these choirs actually looking for and I think like Jake Klein and uh Wayne Bramwell pointed out last week people don't want to buy ounces for the sake of ounces they want ounces with a profitable margin and so in my mind the key attributes to that is scale grade and compatibility with existing Productions yeah and that has some implications around hubs as well so it sounds like I can picture the investment banking slide right now as you you go these are the three categories and we put a body like little Honeywell traffic lights because it's all I get I'll guess and you talk about hubs I guess how about we go through the wa hubs because I think that's the implication right is you see you know based on what Ali said there the implication is more consolidation in this space and that leaves the formation of these Regional hubs um we saw that with Leonora that's the plan that Genesis has is consolidate Leonora we're seeing that evolving Murchison we've talked about that a fair bit I think we've we've seen that in Norseman as well as finally the two joint venture Partners have come together I think the other hubs that you know to keep an eye on is is there going to be consolidation of the laverton Hub the Southern Cross Hub and the Sandstone Hub as well and there might be more we're just sort of casting abroad brush here but I just think that formation of regional hubs is going to be a you know big theme that we see more and more of as consolidation evolves who do you reckon's got the most to play out out of those hubs I think I'd say like Murchison has a lot to play out in that region yeah between ramelius West gold or Emilia scarf Musgrave you've got you've got gas going there you've got the smaller end of uh great Boulder and maker which you're going go into as well Ali I think there's a lot to play out in that region yeah but it's all dependent and as you said on the quality of the deposits alley because the m a is not going to happen if it's not um like because the Musgrave Musgrave is not a knockout mine like it's not it's not going to be an absolute Like It's gotta be it's it's thin it has got high resource grade but it's not like a it's not a Bell View no or anything and and on that point Maddie like Ali she she mentioned she did the screen of all of the undeveloped um projects out there in wa you know you started by looking at what's gone and then you looked at what's left what did you find there Ali well like I said earlier I mean excluding a degree because that's really in another Stratosphere here um there's only six stain and some that sort of look interesting to me from an m a perspective is uh osgold's containing project uh gascoigne Dal Granger particularly uh uh the growing never never prospect there and scrap that is scrap the gilbies just yeah now to never yeah and then you got her eyes and gold and Alto in the in the Sandstone region and then he also got maker and to an extent even though it's not over a million ounces but great Boulder as well and there's about a dozen others as well that we can mention too but um I think uh what's interesting to have a look is the flip side and who who is the most hungry yeah are your biggest meals are the most hungry and you look at some of those like like osgold uh Gum Creek and Alto specifically a lot they've been they've been there for a long they've been sitting there for a long time now yeah and so did Carla winter before Capricorn you know took it over like I think it's just the pathway that sometimes happens right yeah and off and are you going to go through the others any that stand out there look medallion's another one that's been um just hampered by this Equity side it's just the share price has just kept going down because they can't get the investment so my theory was Ali now this is I thought that Barrack was taken over first Quantum just to get access to the infrastructure to take over Medallion 25 billion company taken out just to get access to Medallion I was I thought that was guaranteed made sense to me and next I'll be um yeah bidding for olcam to get access to the to the Mount Catlin infrastructure there put it all together it's just all just coming together and telling you exactly uh yeah I think we'll I think Ellie will get into some of those names of the undeveloped ones and and and just um yeah I think that question you pose Valley of who's who's hungry that's going to inform a lot of the consolidation that we see here because deals happen from you know human factors and what drives the human emotions is desperation what like what drives desperation well sometimes you need to do a deal to keep your job to make your expectations of production or to have your bloody performance rights faster whatever they are um don't deal with you some people do a deal and put themselves out of a job and I admire the people that do that you know because it's our contrary to the trend and it's usually it's good for golf yeah uh so the the you know who's most hungry I think like there's been evidence that there are certain mid-tier gold producers that are hungry you know as shown by their activity in the market already and they've showed their hand we speak of West gold they showed their hand with their uh hostile armies word hostile hostile um move that they they had on Musgrave Silver Lake similarly showed their hand um you know with their hostile move on the Leonora asset so there's two that was extremely hungry a lot that was that was like a week without food that's bloody hungry so I think that those two are they're known hungry and also fitting in that known hungry category I'm gonna lob Genesis um you know they're now a producer and and they've got this public strategy to consolidate I just think we'll see them be continue to be hungry um over time I'd say they've filled up a bit they're not in back into fasting just yet but maybe intermittent fast possibly just on a key dial at the moment but possibly Hungary coming up soon yeah they're not then I've labeled this next group moderate appetite and I'm talking remelius so it's like a nutrition chart this into a nutrition shop a reveal this I got the hands full for a while right I mean they got like like they're just bloody acquired well if if Mars got complaints and they'll have three super recent transactions so they've got to wrap their head around and incorporate their mind plans but they just continue to be hungry so you leave them in moderate appetite um but they will have their hands full for a while I imagine I think the car is so damn thing is probably the big thing that's kind of for that like Rebecca yeah scab off the rank yeah possibly Regis uh they don't need another development project um they've got mcphilities right so I don't know if they're super hungry but they do need more free cash flow to fund mcfilliams I think so to the extent they're hungry I think they'll be looking to get their hands on some free cash flow gold Road I I mean these guys are always hungry right because they they need to justify their bloody existence um instead of just being a you know non-controlling uh interest in a in a in one mind um they've loved themselves into into the gray but you know do they have the capability to build a mine I don't know I think they'll just keep trying to Hitch themselves to things where they don't have to do much work um Capricorn they I put them in the moderate appetite too because you know they're bringing Mount Gibson online I think what could drive some deal activity from them is the fact that their current valuation assumes that mount Gibson um you know is 100 unrisked it's sort of like they tried it one time to nav on an unrisked basis for for Mount Gibson which is is pretty astounding they're kind of you know fully valued for that to just go smoothly and non-budget and all that sort of stuff um so the way that they can you know bust their valuation to the next level is acquire another growth project and then all of a sudden the Brokers can add another my player to their um to their evaluation and the share price can go even higher so that maybe that happens but you often don't want expectations to exceed Reality by too much um otherwise you disappoint Emerald is the other one I put there which you brought up before Maddie they're going to build that Bullseye in that labor to region there and and I suspect that could be a bit of a play to consolidate the region I think Ali's going to talk about that a bit later on today Buy Mount Morgan's back off Genesis oh there's a lot of slaverton right not just about mortgage but yeah I mean yeah um and then and then I think there's another um category travel I'm just reading the notes here I'm not going to say those words I call it the other category um red five so I just think these guys that they'll be waiting to be bid by you know Genesis instead of instead of being hungry themselves and buying more ounces that appear to be past the um the hurdle at King of the hills but they obviously are part of the puzzle and the Leonor consolidation story I'm just gonna grip caledus pantoro and arabanda all together these are you know like these are proven to be pretty troubled projects and they've just got to prove themselves operationally before um they have sort of capability to do anything themselves dacian I just think of as pseudogenesis now and eventually that will fold in I imagine um catalyst is you know the the latest entry into the wa uh gold producer market and I imagine they've got their hands full with plutonic Mary Meyer project now and they've got a Tasmanian mind handy but it's a pretty marginal project itself so I just don't think any of those companies I just mentioned are going to be very hungry at all now to zoom out even more just to be comprehensive for the money miners let's talk about gold Fields right um oh yeah I'm interested in these ones yeah because there are a few International listed companies who have assets producing Assets in wa and we often don't have very good insight about these companies because they're listed somewhere else um in the case of goldfields I actually think they'll be around here in wa for a while like look on LinkedIn look look for people that work at goldfields with the title starting with the word Chief the seat here and most of them are based in Perth yeah because they're ahead of their corporate is here like their tech services head of Tech services and everything is in Perth not in South Africa I think the tricky thing for them though is that a lot of their management got shafted in the aftermath of the failed yamana deal um but you know like the clear sort of deal for them it would still be to to acquire gold road if if they can move forward there given they are the uh the other joint venture partner and Grier and degraves take gold right then take to grow I think I predicted that ages ago someone told someone told me but I'm climbing it as mine uh the other one's Anglo right so angloy they currently re-domiciling to the New York Stock Exchange the one that Trav another word I've learned yeah yeah what does that mean yeah just bloody domiciling themselves on that exchange they're just going there yeah they're dealing exactly I mean not not physically but just the listing right um in in their case they've removed their ASX listing already ticket AGG doesn't work anymore um and they're removing the the jse which is the Johannesburg Stock Exchange listing they're gaining the New York Stock Exchange listing and this whole process is a costly exercise I heard numbers um in the hundreds of millions of dollars to do this but what's the rationale of doing it it's I think one of the things that it does is it gives them more capability to do deals with their script because no one wants Johannesburg Stock Exchange listed script so all of a sudden if you have NYSC script you know you've got a lot more Firepower to do a deal and maybe just maybe that re domicily is because they've got a deal lined up that they're going to do involving their their script so I don't know what that is but that's just my insight there greatly gold right they're currently listed I think it's on the aim in UK and I think it's pretty clear that they want to buy telfa um which the Australian is talking about today is um you know going to be you know spat out of new Crest new monument when that deals over but you know as I'll get to a bit later you know I sort of think Evolution's going to be looking at that too it's it's just a bit of a it's an inconvenient distance that like the great lingard project to proximity to telfa it's just that for a high high tonnage low-grade deposit a little bit too far to truck but it's like well do they build the uh build the mill at Greatland to actually support it yet to be yet to be known because it's got to be it's a massive massive deposit havron is enormous like it's utterly enormous project one of the most expensive declines I think ever put in because it was all like Road headers and lots of support because it was absolute pass apparently yeah go through yeah uh then then to the TSX you got karora listed out um out there and and the company's valued at 800 million bucks now with two wa gold mines if I was them I'd be hoping to be taken out at that valuation rather than be hungry buying something else um you know heck they might want to use their script while it's pretty pretty fully valued as well then Newmont obviously um they're more likely to sell some assets post merger with newgrass rather than buy and if they are hungry for anything my bet is to gray um for those guys I just think the scale of degree it just if it's it's a new one asset in my mind so what do you think with the new Newmont new Crest merger Australian operations what do you think is going to be spat out the back end um but obviously you would assume that Kate boddington yeah uh you would assume they would keep Katia yeah um that's pretty much I just I just think telfa yeah yeah that's what I bet um and then look at the Aussie big producers just the two of them to talk about being Northern Star obviously hyper focused on the super bit now they're not hungry at all you wouldn't think they're hungry with that Mill expansion they are consumed for a very long time I think so and I think they're more likely a divestor of non-core assets so right and talking about the limetown contract talking about how big a four million tonne operation is that super pit is going to have two four million tonne operations Mount Charlotte's gonna be four million and the feministon underground is going to be 4 million so that is going to be massive and they'll be competing for the same labor because you know it's not too far away from each other because you've got it because you've got a mangari expansion with Evolution then you've got the you've got the Linus plant being built now yeah yeah but like all the where they're going to get the people and the accommodation it is cowgirl is going to be Harmon yeah bring back the Golden Mile and evolution to round it off they say they're still still mulling a bid for for Musgrave but yeah I just think they'll be more interested in anything that pops out of Newmont yeah Musgrave like it's just weird after talking to Wayne about Wayne Broome all about would Evolution be interested in Westgate says oh we're a bit too small for them so how does Musgrave then weave into Evolution sites well it's because they've got they've got that joint venture with them and you just read the public commentary and they say they're still still mulling it but I just I don't think they'll go there but if they do they'd look at you know their own Standalone production facility there because part of the exploration ground in Musgrave is a joint major with Evolution Chuck another Mill up there more Mills in the Murchison yeah yeah yeah so I mean it's interesting right and I think like that's the landscape as paved um you know really well by Ali but the thing that we do as Bankers mate is we throw some darts at the dartboard and have a punt some some potential deals is what I've been waiting for predictions because there is a chance I'll come true and you've got to look like a genius yeah and it's easy when you're in the bloody um the office to to throw the darts because especially uh you know in the world that Ellie and I come from because we know nothing about mining mate we just know oh we add this one to this one and it looks bigger so if I can do the deal I like throwing the darts when you know where the dartboard is already I hear the best starts to throw the magnetic dart boards there's an upside yeah so ali uh question for you right like caveat this knowing that 95 of the darts are going to miss but how do you think that this consolidation theme that we've spoken to these hungry players that we've spoken about how is it going to unfold in the wa gold space I've got a few ideas some of them a bit left field but I think in this market there is some serious value plays that would be too good not to consider and now Trev you know the most creative part that we used to get as investment bankers is making up project names so I've gone ahead and made a couple project names I think it was the best at this so this is Project Murchison Menage à trois what has been gonna have to explain Minaj for the unsophisticated people including myself it's I think French for a threesome essentially so so this one's for uh West gold taking out maker and great Boulder at the same time yeah so they might have lost our Musgrave but I think this deal could potentially represent just as much value if not more for them so going back to those criteria that we spoke about before as far as scale grade and proximity to existing operations this for me sort of ticks all of those boxes you've got to add another criteria and that's um complexity to to complete Ali because fuck you wanna you wanna get two people lined up at the exact same time and say fucking let's have a threesome and now it's a three-way scheme of arrangement that's plenty hard just need a good financial advisor that's all but um so like they have a combined resource of say 1.7 million ounces at just shy of three grams a ton and a small reserve so sidewell uh that's great Boulders asset there it's less than 25 K's from uh West Gold's Bluebird meal and then you got uh makers merchants in project about 50k from takabiana and there's a whole bunch of uh resource about half a half a million ounces that weren't included in makers uh study let alone the ongoing drilling that they're doing and similarly for great Boulder they're into about another MRA update end of this year to incorporate race and drilling so If you're sort of thumb sucking it you could be potentially looking at a two to two and a half million ounce combined resource by the end of this year and say we assume 40 of that resource Reserve uh conversion you've got a million ounce Reserve at around three grams a ton which in this market uh is not too late high grade in this market it's higher grade in this market and so West Gold's kind of controlling that whole gold Corridor between Chuck Viana and bluebird but I do have a caveat with some of the ground at maker Andy well yeah yeah it's a bit of tough work there yeah I think it is a bit tough work very very laminated from what I've heard so it's hard to control the dilution and there and another one of those assets similar to similar to Paulson's in terms of it got mined out by a mid-cat and like obviously Paul's uh Paulson's bloody extremely large cut now that from Northern Star but yeah it got mined out by Silver Lake they deemed it not going any further it's just one of those ones it's like a bit higher risk opportunity uh to to make it work but but the thing about them uh that you like about companies old the Davidson boys have got a lot of skin in their company so very aligned with the objectives of maker as directors and shareholders so absolutely so yeah it's something to be aware of there don't let that not Knock You Back Alley because Yeah in our world an ounce is an ounce like all ounces are fucking the exact same there's no difference but Maddie tells me an ounce is different to announce it's cool Devils Devil's Advocate on that Ally do you think that's going to fit in with how West gold have transformed themselves to who they are today because previously they had a lot of smaller operations they've now put them like got rid of them or put them on camera maintenance and now they're focusing on less operations bigger operations margin over answers do you think they're going to sort of consolidate smaller ones like to if they're going to go to the effort of try to trying to mine Andy well for the answers but sort of going against their new their new formula of less operations yeah I think the the grade and the proximity argument helps with that um and it doesn't really incorporate what growth there is to come particularly at something like a grow Boulder as well so and it just depends I mean if they can displace better or as you've got to do that cost benefit analysis right yeah yeah interesting keep you all right so you have claimed any M A activity between West gold maker and Greg balder is yours likes are you live that happens we're going to give you full credit because you might not be here that day you heard of you first on money of mine money miners she's got more ideas too mate we can claim we can claim all of this idea number one from Ali G right idea number two uh this is osgold and practically anyone so I'm calling this one project uwa because I was thinking anyone I'm like hey where are they listed I love the project name Ali you got to tell me the meaning yeah I can't take a credit for the uh for this one but a project uwa because they've done plenty studies so I have heard that before yeah so so it is a good one but um looking at that set of undeveloped assets uh gold Assets in wa they're the largest uh undeveloped three-milling open patent Reserve in wa so I got 1.2 to 8 million ounces at the minute and there's an updated resource to this quarter and a DFS in Q4 and this is the Kittanning gold project Oregon with the Mana drilling that they'd done during the course of this year that resource could easily go over 3 million ounces and a reserve over one and a half million ounces so there's been about 20 kilometers of drilling so far this year um so you could be potentially looking at a 150 to 200 000 ounce producer um they're on Freehold land there's no native title they've got access to Renewables from the grid but the farmers have got to say yes don't they but the farmers have got to say yes so I understand all that stakeholder engagement is underway so as far as the deal is concerned this for me is definitely a value and a scale play in a lot of what assets are available at the minute yeah currently 76 million market cap which is pretty damn cheap so even with a 50 premium whacked on it would only cost say 115 mil to acquire and for context Musgrave was acquired by romelius for around 200 million uh with a quarter of the mining inventory albeit they've got a high grade uh asset no and Mill synergies as well so there's no immediate neighbors that would make sense as it require and look boddington is nearby but I think Alice Gold's probably a bit small for that isn't it South boddington everyone was talking about it but it sort of hit them it didn't hit the mark that was their marketing before back in the day but yeah it was marketed as South boddington nice no it's like completely different geological yeah so I think for me it's kind of open to really any mid cap producer looking for cheap access to a new production Hub but willing to take the risk to build a new meal uh in this current market so I really could be Capricorn could be West God we're merely Silverlight Regis you could list the names off but I think given the um the nature of the all body being sort of a large low-grade open pit that is just perfect for a bit of Mark Clark Magic from Capricorn so that's my call on that um I like it I like it Ellie I like the link back to capricorn yeah I mean if I was Mark Clark I wouldn't be in a rush right because um yeah you got your hands full with with Matt Gibson you don't want you don't want uh Universe to bloody get to a head of themselves and set you up a failure if they start baking in the development of this and get priced at One Time's now because yeah you just wanna you wanna you wanna beat expectations rather than underperform so I don't think if I was Mark Clark I wouldn't really be sitting there thinking anyone else is going to nub you know take like just consume it you could take your time on it you'd definitely take your time any other Sally I've got a few more rapid fire ones so we touched on it earlier Emerald potentially uh bulking out more in Australia so might be a bit of Back to the Future having a look at the um rages and emerald market caps was sort of uh 1.1 versus 1.3 billion respectively so could we see a merger of equals and that's a good one laverton rage and Consolidated mcphilamy's very easily so there's that one oh I like that's that's I I I like it conceptually but I just think like you know jukedan I think is the that's that's what they're going to do yeah that's not what it used to be and um you know Morgan who runs Emerald would know that you know do you want uh I I think that he he's created value by building a new mine when you get the real low-cost Dynamics and uh if you if you buy adjuked in today you're not getting that tie into your comments about Anglo would then uh emerald look to take anglo's stake of Tropicana and then have the JV with Regis and then go with roses I'm just matching companies here it's like a puzzle board mate oh no yeah that's my one if that one happens that was me not Alex you got two more L yeah so this one's sort of surely has been on the cards for a while and that's Alto and her eyes and gold in the Sandstone region look uh West Gold sold their Alto steak of about 9.9 to Horizon Gold so which is Zeta essentially yeah yeah so just get it done it's the scale play they'll have about three million ounces in Sandstone um now they just need a meal but I think that just needs to get done bowlsie ballsy said he wants to start going fishing and playing golf and he's sicker going around the country because that potato he didn't say that he probably enjoys it actually so and then my lucky last one is gas going most likely ramelius or west gold so if that was acquired for say 300 mil uh though either of those guys would be getting 1.2 million ounces it's say just over two grams at this stage at this stage could be more still at depth and potential other Vines I think there's a lot of potential there to lift that yeah I like that one as a menager Troy and they get a pretty much near new plant so you know for West School could you switch off takibiana and track the order of gas going and boost up the processing facility um with some more capex to make that all work who knows but I think like you said Maddie they probably need to find another never never or make maybe just some other lenses I reckon talk about between Simon Lawson Mark zepner and Wayne Bramwell that is a menage Detroit I'd like to get involved with any of you boys that's really my favorite people yeah great blacks yeah like you can see how you can have so much optimization in mind scheduling and all that sort of stuff by consolidating that Murchison region you look at those three companies and there's four meals in that Murchison region between those three companies um and they're probably still short or yeah die yeah and Trevor you had a couple yeah I I did I kind of throw my hat in the ring here and set myself up for some embarrassment later Ellie but uh because you fucked up the outside prediction yeah exactly I'll try I'll try and win it back mate double or nothing okay so I reckon remelius bicara so damn on your theme alley of um you know no one wants to Buddy build a meal in this environment and fair enough well why I don't really buy that and that solves their development solution for the two companies they picked up being breaker and Apollo bought them on with Carousel damn happy days that next one is Newmont buying degree once the once I imagine the time to do that would be after the gray come out with their study I think in their last study it was capex is a billion bucks I mean you saw Norman star have a number that was a billion 12 months ago and then come out with that being 1.5 I reckon you know if if the gray that happens to the gray in the capex is 1.5 billion bucks again does the share price come off and then does someone like a Newmont become opportunistic and especially you know now that they're they've got you know enhanced Australia exposure by virtue with the merger with Newcastle and do you do where does that live gold Road Trav do you think that'd take it off gold wrote this guy and girl Drive yeah I mean gold Road has to be um it has to accept any offer right there's probably 20 it's going to be really hard to do anything without them um so yeah like you've got to win them over on price you just have to have a decent enough premium and then I mean yeah if you have a knockout premium I'm sure gold rate will be be on board but then they'll have to figure out what they do um and it makes it all the next DFS is out this quarter actually so it could say some activity pretty soon yeah number three was emergency consolidation not sure what the order is but I'm just a big believer that that all falls in and the fourth one is um the telfers obviously gonna get spat out in the Newmont new Crest um merger and it could go to either you know Greatland is The Logical one there I think Greatland you know they'll have um they obviously got wailu on the register and they'll have funding capability to to pick it up I'm sure because of wailu and um another shareholders that can make that sort of thing happen but I actually think that Evolution will be really interested in in that becoming a production hub for themselves and my bold protection is evolution will um pick up both Greatland and delpha interesting I can arthritis I'm in yeah yeah I thought that yeah I've just got well I think I've repeated it but I'll say it again I still reckon is it does it have to be gold yeah well we come here yeah that's what I thought it's a sector pass yeah disregard it I went I went bloody off track though have you got any gold predictions you could probably Chuck them in now too many as well I agree I concur with everything oh beautiful because I was going to start talking with him what am I talking about I'm just talking deals predictions love this stuff gets me bloody thrall but loves it right oh Ali thank you very much oh thank you boys feel fabulous he's literally done more work for this episode than I have in the last two months so I really appreciate it no thank you it's been a bloody uh bloody pleasure to to work with you again today um so yeah buddy thanks for thanks for coming in any time you want to for the rest of your career break pop in and make us look smarter we'd love love to have you fantastic pleasure to be a part of the what is the top 20 business podcasts in the country it's a volatile list I'm sure it's changing you turn on Spotify yeah oh it's come off a bit but I'm gonna do the bloody ready we've got to do the transition oh what a pack of Legends K drill Terra Capital JP search anytime expiration and top drill thank you to all our podcast partners that are keeping the electricity bill paid at Travis bloody Legends None Of Your sponsorship money's going to alio that she's done it for free appreciated and good stuff Ali and Trav good roommate lovely work can we get on the limoncello again absolutely boys the information contained in this episode of money of mine is of General nature only and does not take into account the objectives financial situation or needs of any particular person before making any investment decision you should consult with your financial advisor and consider how appropriate the advice is to your objectives financial situation and needs