00:00.00 seoai But that's cool and and yeah so I have a ah click the the record button here. So hello Barry and thank you to have you here and today on this podcast I'm I'm so happy to to be here with you and and to. Chat chat with you about your passion for Seo and and everything that you're you're working on. Um, so that's ah, that's amazing. Thank you, thank you? That's cool. So just to jump right into it. What what is your story when it comes to. 00:28.85 Barry Schwartz Um, thank you so much for having me I appreciate it Good to be here. 00:38.73 seoai Seo and and search engines. How did you start. 00:42.93 Barry Schwartz Yeah I think oh I started in like the late 90 s where we built a company. We built a lot of like websites back then um and one of our clients had a I guess a professional you know colleague that was interested in how search engines work. So he's like you know computers very well. Can you go ahead and like give a presentation about how search engines work. So I'm like not right now, but let me do some research so I did some research it wasn't a lot online. There were a few things online there was I think a couple books out. Also. Um, and there were some like seo forms. Also so I did a lot of research dug into it I was just fascinated by you know how the early search engines work Google was just starting out then um and I gave I think it was like a 2 or 3 day course around how search engines work around know content links all type of stuff. Similar to what how search engines look today. Um, and it kind of just stuck from there I just loved um, how search works and how search was changing and I decided when I was in the forums a lot I thought there was so much good information from a lot of Seo personalities. Being shared in those forms but there was so deep inside threads was hard for you know Seo Professionals who were working every day to like find that information. So I said what it be great if I kind of highlighted the most um, useful content. Maybe those hidden gems and bring them on my blog. So I started search as a roundtable which kind of like a round table of thoughts. 02:12.19 Barry Schwartz From the Seo and search marketing community to share ideas that the search marketing marketing community was talking about and it kind of remained that way for the path level 20 years now in terms of how that you know searches round table is operated. 02:22.88 seoai That that's cool and so so you were kind of you know where what? what happened that you you started there with there some point where you were saying okay this this is amazing. This is cool and you were kind of you know into it for real like you know it's it's. 02:41.45 Barry Schwartz Ah, still long ago I don't really. 02:41.52 seoai Did something happen like like you know you? yeah it did I think for for me was like you know I was ah I was working with some stuff and then suddenly I saw some rankings and and I saw something and then then you know I worked I was kind of okay this is this is pretty cool. The. 02:59.24 Barry Schwartz Yeah I mean I think it was for me, it was less about the rankings. It was more about just loving how search was changing and how the search community was like just so obsessed with everything. Of course we all have our stories about how easy it was to rank back then and make a lot of money and stuff like that from search. 03:05.30 seoai Um, you. 03:13.70 seoai Yeah. 03:17.29 Barry Schwartz Um, but what really hooked me was a constant change in how seos are so passionate about it and that's really just keeping track of all those changes and um, that was really what drove me towards the Seo Community is the sharing of knowledge and then obviously the rapid pace of how search changed. 03:33.63 seoai So if if you look of all those changes during the years are there something? Yeah what? what? if you should focus on some bigger changes or something that you remember there ah change elrit change or something. Yeah in in this. 03:48.55 Barry Schwartz Early on I think the biggest change was probably like the the Florida update in like 2002 I think 2003 03:50.69 seoai Many years of 03:57.81 seoai Um, what? what? Ah what was it? What was that about there was a think that was okay. Um. 04:00.62 Barry Schwartz But it wasn't really Google didn't call it the flotter update: we called it. The Florida update it was it used to back in the old days. We used to name and nothing was confirmed by Google there was no real Google app. The Google guy came on board which just turned out to be Matt Cutt's you know, sharing information in the forms. Um, and. 04:13.31 seoai Benefit. 04:18.45 Barry Schwartz We used to name all the Google updates usually through webmaster world used to name them when we saw a lot of changes. We said oh there's a Google update happening in the early days it was just Google dances so before the Florida update. It was really like Google every thirty days Google would update their index and every thirty days it would update their page rank scores. And you would know where you would rank for the next thirty days so it's pretty much static for thirty days and your rank keys wouldn't change for that time. Period? Um, and then after that Google used to do these updates randomly because it was more real time and so forth and. It was every few months or so like even like it is now but Google wouldn't confirm anything so the first big update was this Florida update which Google's like us the end of seos were like at the end of Seo google got us. They isnu easy to rank and go through these updates every you know few months now. Ah, but that was we called it back in the old days was that first update was like the Florida update which Google didn't confirm or anything but you know. 05:11.87 seoai But and and and I think Google has died many times like you know this Google is dying again like you know with its its its people are talking about all all of that all the time when when there are a big change and but if if you if you come if if you go up here but you fit. Maybe the last three four five years what what are the biggest changes and and challenges here as you see it. 05:37.54 Barry Schwartz Um, yeah, in the past I mean couple of years maybe in the past you know six months is the Ai stuff. Everybody's talking about Ai and Ai is going to kill stuff. It's interesting to see that like the usage of Ai for consumers like chat gpt bingcha even like googlebarn AndSGe seems to be slowly declining. 05:41.31 seoai Um, yeah, yeah. 05:57.30 Barry Schwartz Um, but yeah ai is going to be and has always been a very important part of how search works. Ah Google's use Ai significantly in featurenippets and a lot of their other features. Um, so it's not uncommon for Google and search engine the ways use Ai and a Microsoft Bing has been saying Ai like 90% of their algorithm. Is um, you know, powered by Ai and that was like probably like five years ago so Ai is always been important but now it everybody is using like genniator of Ai and how is that going to change not just search. But how seos do their work to generate content to generate do analysiss people are throwing an scm brush or serush data into. Chatcp to get to get think analyzes for me to come up with better ideas. So ai is changing like every worksplace for the most part including Seo and it's another tool that seos could use and it's another tool that search engines could use to make things easier for them searchers on a database to make it easier for them to answer questions. And to make it easier force people who are doing their job to do their job on a more efficient basis so ai is probably going to be the most is the most significant change right now and probably will be more significant changes going forward for the next foreseeable future. 07:03.90 seoai Yeah, it's I think there's also a lot of people out there seos and and businesses who has a lot of fear when it comes to all this Ai now and and this hype and and everything do do you have any recommendations on how to how to manage this? ah. 07:21.33 Barry Schwartz Name f. 07:21.74 seoai This process and and what to do now and and also with your experience in all the algorithm changes during the years and and and what should you do in the middle of it now. 07:34.52 Barry Schwartz Get no I mean ah you know good. It's funny because seos are really good at adapting to change but yet they're also very loud when there's change like the's fear and scared you know I've been doing this for so long that you know. You have the only way to be in Seo is and to to be in the seo community is to love change I'm but kind of surprised and annoy that some seos are like this is going to kill everything you have to take the attitude of all right ai is here. It might change the search results in a big way. It might change how I do my job but you have to go ahead and be the first to adopt it. How it works make mistakes early this way when you're going ahead and um, you know down your path. You can actually go ahead and say I made money from this I got better because of ai I'm using this to my advantage as opposed to actually destroying me so use it as a you know something that you could actually you know get on the bandwagon use it and use it to your advantage as opposed to trying to. Scream about it and be afraid of it because honestly, it's going to do a lot of good as well. And if you could see the good side of it I think you'll benefit from it in the long run. Yeah. 08:32.29 seoai Yeah, yeah, yeah I think you're absolutely absolutely right it when if if you focus on on. Okay, it's more specifically on on content generation using using ai I Do you have any recommendations on on on how to approach. Content generation when it comes to Seo or how to how to use that as an advantage. 08:59.97 Barry Schwartz Yeah, so it's funny and scary that a lot of ah Google sense tends to be ranking a lot of Ai content. Um in the search results I don't if it's ranking. Well it's kind of annoying because you know you want really quality written content to rank well and you can detect this ai content. Um, so I would think in the long run and know Google stances. It doesn't make a difference I don't care who writes the content as long as the content's helpful and useful and read their helpful content guidelines. But they also say you know the who what? where like who's writing the content where they're writing it why they're writing it and it's hard for the ai to have the experience and stuff around. That topic that they're writing about. So I think when it comes to long-term strategy around content development is yeah sure use the ai to help you write that content but don't let it take away from how you would actually write that content. So I try write a lot of content as you know. 09:51.63 seoai You. 09:52.86 Barry Schwartz Um, and I've tried using it to make my stories better but it takes all of my I guess personality out of the way I write and I don't like that it fluffs it up. It may sound a little bit more dense and my readers like to be you like to read stuff right? to the point not waste their time and just get to the nuts and bolts right away. 09:58.73 seoai Yeah. 10:12.35 Barry Schwartz And move on I think Ai generally tends to waste a lot of people's time, especially when it generates content to fluff it up and so forth. Definitely use it for like content ideas but I wouldn't let you I wouldn't let ai write the content and just hit publish and want to go from there just use it as a tool. Not as something that is you know, taking over your job or saying. 10:30.28 seoai Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but that's that that's ah yeah, some very good recommendations. Yeah I like that It's if if it's just a yeah and and another question I I also have for you here is is that. Ah, there's something when it comes to seo and and all of all of this here something that you would like people to focus more on something that you kind of you know, say again and again that people should focus on and you think they're not focusing that a lot about. Something a good recommendation there and and something. Yeah, we could do to? yeah. 11:08.56 Barry Schwartz Yeah I mean I think people in the seo space are just way too in the weeds I mean weeds are important yes, but focusing on little things here and there isn't going to make your content better. It's really about how can I write the best content. How could I make the best type of website. Sounds corny Google's been saying that for 20 years but ultimately you want the search engines. So like the so people who are writing the algorithms at the search engines to look at your website and say why does this website not rank. Well it is doing everything the best in in this class. What can we do to change our algorithms to go ahead and make sure that. This website ranks. Well it sounds corny. But again Google will get there so you know always focusing on on specific ranking factors. Just it's sometimes a bit too much like core and vinyls launched. You know they just recently are changing fi d to I np. You go ahead and spend all this time on I I don't think it's you know these things don't really matter too much if your site's a second of a fraction of a second slower. It's really not going to matter that much if your content is much more relevant and more on topic for your users. So it's corny to say but I think ultimately the best best way to utilize your resources. Budgets and spend your time is to look for ways to make your content better look look for ways to like do small little Seo tricks to improve your you know corporate vitals or you know and certain types of links certain places stuff like that those things don't matter as much as I used to in the old days. It was very easy to make anything link well with links. 12:38.84 Barry Schwartz Now it's really really about the content and it's not good enough to have mediocre mediocre content. You really have to have the best type of content. 12:44.76 seoai And and that's actually I think also a very good approach right now when when you you have all those opportunities just you know hit the ai button and and and mass Producer meteoricro content right? So yeah, that that's that's that's so nice and. Yeah, it's um and if if we look at at just yeah, some of the the last changes here the the last year some algorithm updates or something other there something something. 13:23.53 seoai Important here some important recommendations based on on. Are there anything any tips and tricks there. You could you could share. Of course they are the smaller. They are the smaller things and you also report a lot of them I'm actually amazed that you. 13:33.27 Barry Schwartz Um, so. 13:39.62 seoai That you ah that you publish your so many great tips on an ongoing basis. Um, yeah. 13:43.63 Barry Schwartz Yes I cover all the small things and the small things. Yeah, they all if you look at where the small things are are leading towards I mean I can write about you know I write like five ten stories a day where do they all go towards and it goes back to the content it all leads back to the content. How can you make your content better. 13:51.27 seoai Um, and. 14:01.92 Barry Schwartz From you know the core core algorithm updates to the helpful content. Update to reviews. Update all is about content content content. It's not about necessary links. It's not about you know how you know small or your images are for say if not about do you have the right structured data on the page. All these little things definitely help. Um, and often you know making your images better and more relevant does help but has to be useful for that user if you're making an image just to make it look pretty. Um, it's not going to really matter. It has to be very useful. That's one case where I'm actually using a lot of Ai and my content is by making really cool images that are very very relevant for the. Stories that I'm writing about so I don't know to have when Google writes about I don't know some type of new robots control for content I can make ah an image of a robot sitting in a park bench reading a news article and you can't do that anywhere else and it's it's relevant It's fun and it's useful. So it's really really about. 14:54.68 seoai Um, yeah. 14:59.67 Barry Schwartz You know all comes back only small little things. It's all goes back to is the content useful for the user is are the user going to be happy reading that content. Are they happy with the user experience on your website. It really comes back to making the really best type of website with the best type of content and sometimes that means producing new content. Sometimes that means obtaining old content. Ah, but again it all about the content and I know it's kind of boring not to have like sort of meta tag that you can add to say rank me number one but it just doesn't work that way and any of the the tricks and stuff that you can go ahead and implement today probably won't work by the time people are listening to this anyway. So. 15:33.67 seoai Is there's no little magic bullet right? It's it's it's it's all about this perspective. Ah creating. Yeah. 15:38.45 Barry Schwartz No I mean in the old days there were magic bullets that worked for a longer period of time. It was able able to rank for a pretty long time or months maybe sometimes years but it just doesn't work that way anymore. It's not that simple it. 15:50.64 seoai No, no, no, it's it. It isn't but but that's also what's what makes it that it's it's it's it's harder now and and but it's also yeah, amazing will change. That's that's yeah, it's if if we so so it's all about this Yeah quality Content. Ah. And and so all the small changes they're leading back to this creating helpful content eat and and and all of all of that talk. So So so you see this pattern of all the small changes that that they're they're all part of yeah of of yeah. 16:24.95 Barry Schwartz I mean hundred percent if you look at every single update Google is done in the path almost every single update Google has done in the past twenty years it all focuses around ranking the best and most relevant content for the users Google doesn't want to rank stuff that is tricking search and it's tricking users or tricking search engine. They don't want low quality stuff. There. Anything from panda penguin all the core updates medic. Update you name them. Everything unconfirmed confirmed. It's all about Google trying to make the most relevant and useful piece of content to rank higher tips and tricks to do that. No law if you find there's ways and loopholes around it Google will plug those it might last I know there was the. Seo conch house website that fake trickle will for a month or 2 made a lot of money and then was shut down I mean again, you can make a lot of money really fast, but it won't last and and you have to find something do so through some long long-term strategies that last for a long time. You become an expert in the field. Whatever field you're writing about. Um, you might get on some news chattles. You might get quoted by some major publications. All that stuff helps and helps you raise money and from diverse sources as well. So just do it the right way anything. Ultimately you'll be happy with that decision in the long run. Okay. 17:34.62 seoai Um, if if if we look at Google's challenge you know that had always been new. They have also they had all always been a lot of spammy content and and a lot of spam. They should tackle and and try to to avoid but but I think this window to the internet will even. Probably more spam now when people can generate masses of spam Google has a huge challenge there. They do think they they're doing a good job still keeping the content. Good. Or yeah. 18:06.94 Barry Schwartz I mean yes, and no I mean I think I see more spam or different types of spam. Um I see it all the time. Um, but I think overall the search results are much better much more relevant than they used to be twenty years ago Twenty years ago you could literally write for anything. Even if it's not relevant so you could go ahead and have Disney Cartoons ranking for the most ugliest and horrible things in the world that doesn't really tend to work these days. So ah, but yet you see a lot of low quality content still ranking very well and even though Google saying it doesn't or shouldn't um I think Google is still working towards these things. Um. And so forth. So we'll see the Ai stuff is pretty interesting. How fast it's adapting as well. But it seems to be growing a little bit less. So I think um, yeah I think I think there's more spam out there. But Google has done a tremendous job. Ah. Teams Devotd just to multiple layers of spam and they' remove so much spam over the years so felt like if they're new to this. They they have been focus on this for over 20 years so they don't seem to be concerned with ai and how that might generate a tremendous amount of spam or generate a mol gen minus well low quality content. They think they have no problem handling it. And I'm sure there'll be more cases of sites that get through those filters and through those those quality checks and then Google have to plug those things going forward. So um I don't think Google is concerned about it of course I see examples everybody sees example every day but that's the nature of this catamouse game between spammers. 19:34.43 Barry Schwartz And search engines. 19:35.32 seoai Here here here at this yooda today we are. We're tool builders and and we are we are fascinated by using tools and trying seo tools and and to do are there any tools that that you would recommend people to use when it comes to. Seo I had to have some favorite tools or yeah. 19:55.91 Barry Schwartz Um I don't use many Seo tools at all I obviously use Google Search console webmaster tools um I check out serush here and there I do the tracking tools of course just to see what's going on with the search results and an aggregate level. Um. 20:03.18 seoai Um, yeah. 20:10.30 Barry Schwartz I use like a lot of content types of tools like for tracking content like I use Rss big time Feedly I used to use Google reader but before it closed down a lot. Um and blog lines before that. So I'm a big content consumer biggest tool for my ah seo tool chat is. 20:26.31 Barry Schwartz Making sure I'm aware of what's going on in my industry so that I write about it and understand it before most people which is why I'm one of the first people to write about most things in a somewhat. You know, useful way. So I think the best tools for any Seo, especially in the content seo space is to be able to track the topics that are most interesting to you. And be able to write about it in a sort of some authoritative way. Um there's obviously technical seo stuff that you could do and a lot of the debugging tools are out there to help you but debug those things from search console webmaster big webmaster tools you name arf themas there's um, limited a number of e Seo tools out there which I don't want to name all them. Um, but whatever I mean. Assume a lot of them do the similar things. So whatever you're accustomed to is probably fine and obviously keep experimenting with other tools because you know it's fun. So. 21:12.36 seoai Um, you also made mentioning a tool you used to create images and and and stuff and you were playing around with those ai images and there. 21:19.83 Barry Schwartz Um, yeah, so I use midjourney. Um I don't use like the bing image creator I use midjourney. It's absolutely amazing I'd be using it for probably a few months now and I still get compliments every day on the images. So it's pretty amazing what to create so and it's fun. So. 21:26.39 seoai Yeah. 21:38.00 seoai it's it's funny it's funny to play with and and I also accept front some of the first time I just saw those ah those images it's kind of you know it's crazy to to just look at where we are now with all all of this and and and just look one year back I think it's okay. It's crazy. 21:55.16 Barry Schwartz I Yeah, that's why I love this space. It's changing so bad. So creative, try new things and play with new things. 21:58.68 seoai It is. It is very thank you so much for for for being here today and and having this chat called me here and it was was amazing to to have this talk. So yeah, thanks a lot. If if there were were someone if you should shoot just another global istio front runner someone we should reach out to would you recommend any any there to follow or talk to. 22:31.35 Barry Schwartz I could definitely recommend a bunch of people. Um I don't want to name anybody specifically but I could definitely share it to you with the after or every newsletter I publish every day has um articles new daily articles from different Seo personalities that are published across the web as well as pretty good tweets. People that are publishing stuff on Twitter so I'm constantly sharing new content from people across the the Seo community on a daily basis in my newsletter so you can definitely check those out because every day there's something new there like lot of new stuff. 23:02.35 seoai Thank you, Thank you so much. And yeah, thank you and the and then take care. 23:08.91 Barry Schwartz Thank you for having me.