very very pleased that Michael's taken the time at his very busy schedule here today to come and talk with us about uh the duth model um Michael we'll have you say a little bit more about yourself but we want to let everyone know that Michael was one of the founders of um the domestic abuse Intervention Program with the late Ellen Pence our dear friend who passed away in 2012 and um Michael um was that a core organizer with Ellen um as part of what the duth model is and we did this uh today because in part there's just so many um you know questions and thoughts and wondering what it is sometimes it gets Lost in Translation about what the doth model actually is so Michael why don't we have you get started just by introducing yourself and then I'll just start asking you a couple questions to get us moving along so Su say a little bit about yourself okay very good can I just want to make sure you can hear me okay yeah I can hear you great okay well again I apologize to everybody for the technical problems on on our end here but uh um thank you all for joining in the webinar um as Melissa said I'm Michael payar I've been um I've been in this field for well since the duth model started back in 1981 and uh I worked as the men's program coordinator and helped to do a lot of the organizing in the early stages of the duth project and then I went to work with the uh batter women's Justice project for many years and now I uh run a um nonprofit called education for critical thinking that's dealing with uh uh gender violence issues so um I'm very happy to be here and have this discussion with you about uh about the duth model great so Michael we're just going to start out just with a little bit of a historical perspective today um just can you just sort of talk about the history of the D model you kind of give us a sense of um like you said it started 1981 what was it like back then what were kind of what was E easy what were some of the struggles um tell us a little bit about that well I think it's I think it's always helpful to to put this in perspective and and and talk about uh the reality of uh what was actually happening back in the in the in the early 1980s I mean think about it in the 1970s I mean I I didn't say this but I'm a member of the Minnesota House of Representatives and have been there for almost 20 years well in the late 1970s state legislatures all around the country started enacting uh laws that uh criminalized domestic violence and it really started there when Minnesota adopted a bill that allowed officers to make a uh a warrantless arrest if they had probable cause to believe that a crime had been committed so that was really the the impetus is changing the state law but even though the law was changed cities by and large were reluctant to get involved or reluctant to change their policies or really address the issue in any fundamental way and uh Ellen Pence and Shirley olberg uh you might remember some of these names uh corl McDonald and myself early on as a volunteer um we were looking for a a community to try something different to really take that law and make it work and theth had uh fortunately um some Community uh leaders who were receptive to the idea uh a police chief a probation officer a judge that uh really thought that the the idea of having a coordinated Community response and changing policies to protect victims and hold offenders accountable uh made sense so the very beginning um we went to the police department and um the police chief at that time was a little reluctant uh to change the policy um so there was a a essentially an experiment that was created where a third of the officers were told that they must make an arrest if they had probable cause to believe that an assault OCC occurred um the other uh officers could do what they wanted uh which was whatever their present practices were and the third could uh either mediate or separate and then make the decision on whether to arrest or not based uh um based on on that decision making and and it was very clear from that early experiment that if you left it up to the officer's discretion that most of them would not make the arrest so that was the kind of environment that we were really looking at uh from the very beginning and it wasn't until a couple of years later that the police department uh finally agreed to adopt um a mandatory arrest policy so the police were really the first uh agency that we went to to organize but when you think about the domino effect if you're going to make arrests then you have to have a prosecution policy that makes sense so the prosecutors were next in line to uh develop uh policies with the domestic abuse intervention project and then of course the bench uh probation officers and then the mental health community so slowly but surely each intervening agency got on board and two years after this organizing effort agreed to um policies and a press conference was called and hence the delute model was formed Michael can you give us a sense like at that time who some of those other agencies were I mean I have an assumption that some of the um you know what we consider the basic criminal justice agencies but can you just sort of confirm that and then were there any others um just you know that that may were a part of some of those earlier discussions well the um you know as I said I mean there's a you know there's there's key uh players in any coordinated Community response so um you have to get to the 911 dispatcher online with the with a policy uh you have to get obviously the police on on board uh the city and the County Attorney at least in our jurisdiction we have a city and county attorney the City attorney handles misdemeanor cases and the County Attorney handles gross misdemeanors and felonies uh you needed to get the bench involved I mean one of the one of the things that I think that we faced 30 years ago I I think a lot of jurisdictions still face today and that's resistance uh why should we do this um and and there were some difficult hurdles that we had to face for instance the the judges were were quite concerned uh if there was a mandatory arrest policy what would we what would they do with all these offenders who were now brought into the criminal justice system when there was so much ja uh overcrowding so they asked the daip if we would organize the Mental Health Community in duth uh to begin offender programs so that in in lie of actually um going to jail offenders would have the opportunity to be um on probation for a year and complete a counseling program so you had the Mental Health Community um you had the jail uh you have the battered women shelter you had all these different agencies that um when you think about uh how you tackle a social problem unfortunately even today everybody is in their little silos and they develop uh policies and practices that make sense to them but they they don't communicate with each other in a very meaningful way and I think that's what the the when I think back and and and look at the um what sticks out about the duth model and why it's been so successful over all of these years is that we didn't just bring everybody to the table and say okay we've got a problem here with domestic abuse so how are we going to deal with it uh I think that would have been a recipe for disaster um and in fact we still do not do that we we have uh long believed that um a a nonprofit or an NGO an entity that's not connected to the uh Criminal Justice System should have the authority and the bias in from the system so when there are problems that surface uh an inter agency meeting can be called uh look at the data try to resolve the problems in an amicable way and then if necessary change the policies to further enhance the safety of victims so it's it's been that model that I think has made uh Deluth very successful so that each one of those entities that I just named uh is is certainly you know part of the solution but um uh they they are we work with them on an individual basis sometimes for instance the police and the prosecutors might together get together to discuss a particular policy but you would never ever bring everybody together so um sort of a long answer to your question but I I really do think that that's what's you know is a lot of people at least when I've done National and international training say that they're doing the Deluth model or that they have a c C and I when I ask more about that I usually find out that what they have is a task force or some kind of Coordinating Committee and they get together once a month and talk about problems but I don't think that's a good way to um uh resolve uh problems in the system sure and Michael can you say a little bit I mean also and I think maybe we'll give this a little bit later but I'm thinking about it now which is that in part say a little bit about why if you have a batter Intervention Program or you know our men's nonviolence class why it's so critical you also have the coordination of the criminal justice agencies no because I know that a lot of 's intervention programs kind of you know struggle with that and so I mean because I understand from you and being here in duth is that was the original intention so can just any additional thoughts about what the struggles would be if you were kind of standing alone and what the enhancement is if if you're connected to a coordin community response you're talking about the the treatment programs for fenders yes well let me just start off by saying um because I'm seeing the slide that's up there unfortunately I can't see you or or you can't see me but um you know the the fourth bullet there about resistance I you know that's always a struggle when you make social change and um I think I I I mentioned the fact that the police initially were a bit res resistant when we were talking about this delu model um for instance the chiefs of Police Association back in the 1980s said that the the absolute wrong way to intervene in domestic assault cases is to make an arrest that's the last thing that you should ever do so that's sort of the environment that law enforcement uh was was operating under and again think back to the 1980s and in some ways it still exists today uh just the whole attitude about domestic abuse that it's uh that both people's uh share respons possibility in the fact that there's domestic abuse in that household so you have this sort of prevailing attitude about what causes domestic violence and then how do you end it so the some of the resistance that we encountered early on in the 1980s when the mental health communities got involved was uh how uh connected should they be to not only the domestic abuse intervention project but also the criminal justice system and I bring this up because um I was just uh presenting at a conference in San Diego um the ivat council which is the international uh whatever whatever whatever on victim trauma assault and um I was on this panel and there were two very I think uh uh respected uh researchers and practitioners in the field and um one of the questions that was raised was does your program have a policy uh that says that you have to report back to the courts if there is um if some if there's a violation in other words if someone is committing violence if someone is violent while they're in the program uh do you report them and I said of course that's a fundamental piece of the duth policy and the daip policy and uh these two individuals said well they don't do that in fact one of the one of the people said that they would never um that they would never do that because it shuts down um uh the group that you know who would ever talk about their violence if they knew that they would be reported back to the court and I was thinking like 33 years later after we struggled with these very issues that that is uh is still a contentious issue that's out there and we've always seen that the that the counseling program that the educational program in duth is really an appendage of the criminal justice system so you have to have a policy that's connected that says if you use violence you're going to get reported back to the court now whether that person goes to jail or not is another question altogether um but you have to have accountability in your system and and uh so that's why I you know I think that a a tight coordinated Community response is such an important thing if we're going to make a dent in domestic violence because the offender needs to know that he or she will be held accountable uh for their behavior and the victim needs to know that uh the system the entire criminal justice system as well as Human Service Providers are doing uh the best that they can through policy as well as their practices to make sure that she's safe so um that I think is a you know it's one of the it's one of the issues that I think that uh we're struggling with nationally now about treatment programs um and I I really hope that whatever treatment program that people think is effective that at least at the very B at the very uh basic that they are clearly connected to the criminal justice system in an accountable way and Michael can you say a little bit about um how the power and control wheel and the equality Wheels I mean came about because you know it's that intricate uh you it's what people recognize often as part part of the duth model can can you just give a little bit about that well you know it's interesting also so just you know okay yeah yeah you know it's interesting the uh the power and control wheel um actually was uh developed by um um battered women uh who were at support in support groups uh at the domestic abuse intervention project and I remember that uh it was I think it was primarily coral and myself and Ellen we go to these support groups and we were asking women what were the most um common tactics or behaviors that were used against them so you for instance uh the word intimidation might come up and and everyone would give different examples of the way their Partners intimidated them whether it was a a certain glare or pounding on tables slamming doors screaming in their face uh then then the conversation might be children uh yes my husband uh is is threatened to take the children away or gain custody of them if I uh unless you know I dro the assault charges um uh so every we came we were looking at if if if you would have been able to go back to that time we probably had 20 or so major kinds of tactics or behavior but we decided to to stick to the ones that you see on the power and control wheel because everyone seemed to have those in common and uh so the wheel really was designed as sort of an illustration if you will to explain what battering is so that you see on the wheel the P the domestic uh physical violence and sexual violence is what really supports the wheel it's the rim of the wheel and inside of the wheel are different tactics or abusive behaviors um so they're the spokes of the wheel and then the intent is to is to maintain control in that in that relationship so that's uh really an illustration of battering and I and I've often said this that I think uh I think that power and control wheel has been translated into 25 maybe 30 different languages and when I've done traveling around the world they have this wheel up in in shelters and and uh different community centers but it you know what really illustrates is is that it doesn't matter where you are in the world uh the tactics are still the same the intent behind the violence is still still still the same the effects of the violence on victims and children are still the same so that power and control wheel I think is a a real uh powerful image and it's sort of at the the center of our work I think and also uh dealing with offenders is to get them to see that it's it's for one we want them to stop using physical violence obviously but unless they unless they agree and recognize that the other abusive tactics on those on that power of control wheel can be just as terrifying and just as powerful and just as effective if I can use that word as the physical violence I I I remember this woman telling me this story about U her husband hit her once when they first got married but he screamed in her face in this most powerful horrible voice and she said you know 20 years later he's never hit me again but when he's mad at me he uses that same voice that as he did uh when when he hit me and I and I just I stop I shake I stop whatever I'm doing and he knows he's gotten what he's want what he wanted so we have to recognize the just the power of first the physical violence but the rest of the tactics on that power and control wheel so Michael um actually we just counted here at dip you know because we get requests from all over about using the wheel and we just found out at leave 22 different languages around the world and 33 different color cultural context um around the world as well so um and we had put up a map and sort of represent it all over the world and just kind of you know um I just want to uh for a minute just remind people that they can ask questions and I'll make sure to get those um asked Michael if you have one so feel free to do that remember to do that um but also just kind of along that line so Michael you know and I think maybe it's tied a little bit about why the the Deluth models um men's nonviolence um program or treatment program has been a bit controversial in part because um can you say a little bit about the sociological sort of approach a bit and it not being just sort of an individual slash you know pathological approach and just kind of talk about that a little bit about the the would you just repeat that again I'm sorry Mela you know that you know I think that the power and control bill as you said sort of represents that you can see these commonalities all across the world I mean remember one time when a group from CH China had come here to duth and they had a translator and they um they had headsets on and so at one point they had closed their eyes while we were facilitating men's group and one of the things that they said afterwards was that they wanted us to know that they weren't being disrespectful but they were closing their eyes because it was as if they were back in China because the men in China were saying so many of the same similar things about the women in China as they were in Del and one of them asked have the men in duth sent a brochure to the men in China about how to treat women remember that you know sort of jokingly but also seriously so can you talk a little bit about um you know the the thinking and kind of where you started as it related to the the uh you know the name of the curriculum is creating a process of change for men who batter but kind of just take us to that place and kind of how you got to where you are and why you're there sure sure yeah good question I um you know um as thinking about uh thinking about um you know just the the changes that we went through over the years back in in 1981 uh when I started getting when I got involved in the program we had what was called ba that was called batterers anonomous and that was that was the uh you know one of the treatment approaches that we had we then uh brought in uh Dr an Ganley and she uh trained the daip staff and myself on Anger Management treatment and um then there it it it sort of dawned on us in the mid 1980s that something was a Miss of primarily we were doing anger management and you know and we had some of those ba elements in there or AA elements and so we'd have a a lot of people that would would talk about the their personal problems that they were having uh during the week and that would occupy a period of time during the group but um you know they never really talked about their violence they never really talked about their beliefs and then when the anger management um uh technique started to become infused what we kept hearing from the men is you know I have a short fuse I lost control um you know my my wife provoked me if she hadn't have said this I wouldn't have got so angry so everything became focused on on his anger and how to control his anger so when he got into an a similar situation in the future he wouldn't use because of of violence and this was all buttressed obviously by the the cycle of violence theory that sort of said that you know invariably this would happen uh in a relationship where there's violence is that men would would would get more and more stressed out and more tense and eventually they would reach this cendo and they would they would batter their spouse and and so that the idea was if we could just teach anger uh management uh and timeout tools that men would stop their violence and um well I think that there's a place for timeouts and I I I I recommend them you know a man is if if if they intent behind the violence and here's where I always think it's really fundamental uh I always say that there's really three very basic reasons why a man uses physical violence uh to uh in the relationship and that is to to shut her up to stop her from doing something or to punish her for something that she's done and the more we get into a lot of these different psychological theories I think we lose sort of the fundamental reason for why the physical violence is occurring so when these people from China were saying that that it sounds like the same men here as the men in China what we're really dealing with is a a long his uh historical roots of patriarchy and of men's violence against women to control them to dominate them and I know a lot of people don't want to hear that kind kind of analysis but um you know you know it it it it is true it is uh it is true around the world and in some countries even uh even more so uh but when when you're thinking about uh battering uh and your the the function behind it if it is to dominate someone and I I wouldn't say that all uh physical violence in a relationship is the same not not everyone who uses it uh is attempting to batter or dominate their partner but when they are um there is a certain belief system that that individual batterer has that uh is shared by uh thousands and hundreds of thousands of men throughout the world and that is a belief in superiority uh that men are better than women on some level that they're more logical that they're more intelligent and that they get to be the boss I mean all oppressive all groups who oppress another have that fundamental belief and once you have that belief the the second key element is is that you get to objectify that person and you do objectify that person because it's much easier to beat someone who ceases to ceases to have Humanity so you'll see that a lot of men who batter you when we talk about emotional abuse I mean that almost always precedes the hit the punch the dragging around the floor is the sense that you're a uh you're a uh you're not a woman uh and you're or you're a bad woman and therefore the more he he uses this degrading and humiliating language the easier it is for him to use physical violence and then the third key element here is sort of this forcing her to submit getting her to believe that she's less than in in the relationship she's Le and and the final key element is is that when using violence with impunity and you see this globally you see it in the United States of course but uh in in some places around the world uh if you could you can't even call the police uh they will do absolutely nothing if there's domestic violence so we have this long history of of gender violence in in around the world and it's just uh in the last generation or so has we've started to address it on a fundamental level but uh these beliefs uh die hard and it's it's part of it's part of patriarchy uh and it's really some it's it's really a key piece of what we're trying to do also in our men's groups is is to is to get men to think more critically and reflectively about these kinds of issues what is it what is it that you want a woman in your life for uh your own role as a man in that marriage and your own sense of masculinity and what you think you're entitled to so this is not a Deluth issue it's not a issue just for America it's it's a global issue and uh we have a lot of work to do right um can you say U about you know you kind of covered a lot of these bullets here but can you say why um a lot of what you've just said is kind of controversial um can you just say a little bit about that uh yeah I um it's controversial because um there are a lot of practitioners uh in our field who um who would you know would offer the uh the following argument uh they would say that that women are just as violent as men I think that's one of the the key I don't know if it's a key argument but it certainly is a a major argument that we're having in the country today um and you know a lot of that goes back to the to the Strauss research that was done over 30 years ago where um women reported using violence um in equal numbers uh with men and so a lot of people who subscribe to this gender symmetry argument are saying that it's really unfair that these pro- feminist kinds of groups like The like duth and emerge and others around the country that uh that have this analysis when when women are equally as violent as men and I and I think that you know what we struggle with is to try to to say that you know and I and I and I I'm very clear about this I you know women use violence um and Melissa you've done work in this area but I mean women use violence they use violence in self-defense they um uh they retaliate when violence is get gets used against them and some women actually initiate violence but I think that the that you know when I when you think about the power and control wheel again and you think about those kinds of tactics that that really describe battering um you know it's it there's not a that that happens very infrequently where a women woman uses those kinds of tactics on the power and control wheel and can instill that kind of fear and Terror uh in her husband or boyfriend so the numbers really in in my estimation pale in comparison and they also don't take into consideration the context of how the violence gets used so this is sort of the argument that we have is uh is is is women's violence and putting that into um into perspective and into into into context that makes sense so that's one of the you know the big arguments that that we hear um some people are would uh would say that we should be focusing more on Anger Management and I think I addressed that a bit um and uh there are other people that say we should be focusing more on substance abuse and I would agree I you know over 50% of the men that usually come into our program have uh substance abuse problems but because uh you know they they really have two problems that that need to get addressed so there's a lot of um practitioners um who think that Deluth is too focused on trying to change uh beliefs and attitudes in men who batter uh and that you know especially if if the couple's going to stay together they're advocating for more individual therapy and certainly more marriage counseling and I would say that I you know I have nothing wrong with marriage counseling but I don't think that we should be offering marriage counseling until a the individual has completed a domestic abuse program uh B the the victim feels safe that she can talk freely uh in a in in therapy uh and has worked with an advocate U because a lot of women and uh do want to stay with their abusive Partners so um so you have all of these different arguments out there about what caused cuses the violence so that's that there's different philosophies about this and then there's an equally um corresponding number of uh arguments about what stops the violence and I think that's where we get stuck a bit is you know should we offer marriage therapy should we have anger management classes um and then of course you have this current argument about evidence-based uh work and uh the research that's out there and a lot lot of people would say well your uh program doesn't work or they you know even more troubling I think is the Deluth model doesn't work well let me just say here real quick meliss I know you have other questions but there's two fundamental problems with that whole with that statement is a people by and large don't understand what the duth model is the duth model is not a treatment program the theth model is uh a a a process where um an NGO Works uh with uh Community agencies to confront domestic violence by developing policies that enhance victim safety that's fundamental to to the duth model and um so people confuse the duth model and say well it's the treatment program that's that's uh that's that's the problem here and so I you know I remember Ellen telling me you know years ago that all of this debate and all of these arguments about which treatment program works uh or doesn't work she said you know at the end of the day this whole fight that we're having about treatment is just going to be a footnote in history because what really uh will uh be historical uh is that in the 1970s and the 1980s was when State legislatures throughout the country enacted laws that said that wife beating was illegal and and so we'll probably have this argument about what treatment program works or doesn't uh for another 10 or 15 years um but I would I would argue that the key principles uh and The Guiding principles of the duth model around victim safety offender accountability creating a community deterrence to domestic violence are far overreaching over whether uh the Deluth model uh or any other treatment program for offenders uh is effective or not because the the people who criticize the offender program their models aren't any more successful when you look at the numbers and in fact if you look at gandolf's research uh programs like Deluth that use the cognitive behavioral treatment model and have a tight coordinated Community response are more likely to have less recidivism than those that don't so I think there's a lot of arguments and you know I'm obviously a Deluth booster um but I think there's a lot of uh fundamental arguments uh to be made for for why this is a good approach great thanks Michael so just to get to um a couple um questions here and I did answer one of them in the queue but uh you know one of the questions about women being um ordered to betters intervention programs so I did respond did respond all to that so if you have additional questions about that you can send in a a different um question um um so part of it is that um there's a question here about or a question in a comment saying that you know a lot of people in this person's State I will just say on the west coast use the term Deluth model to identify a treatment model for working with domestic violence perpetrators ra rather than the collaboration model so what we've kind of been talking about but in sensey kind of want some advice essentially about how to explain about you know its difference to um to their community the and about why the other pieces are you know are are so important and I know you touched on this a little bit Michael but you know in essence I think it's also about um kind of tied to the rest of the system and about the pro prosecution policies as well you know that are today and mandatory AR and kind of what we've learned but you know I think back about when we had done a a practice with Ellen we' done a focus group with B women just give an example and this focus group was with women who their partner's criminal case was either three six or nine years out right and we had said to them the question was tell us about um are you glad or not glad or where you are and you're thinking about the criminal justice system responding um and tell us what your response is at the time and overwhelmingly better women said you know the thing is is that I was calling the prosecutor calling the probation officer everyone begging them to drop the charges and um you know and some of that I was being C to do but also what they said was in the and they were so glad that the criminal justice system held them accountable because their reflection was that there's just no way that they could right because there's also kind of this thing of um still that some people think it's a private person's business but can you just comment a little bit more about um why this is so important and then there was another question there but it's kind of like I need the three bullet answer about what is the Del model um so if people were asked you know kind of what it is kind of so basically we have local Advocates and communities around the country Michael right so what's kind of is there a short answer to what the duth model is that you might be able to um give to the listeners well yeah a short one is hard but I I do think that um this you know when people talk about the duth model I mean I would just say like a duth model the duth model really is having an effective effective and efficient uh coordinated Community response where where um agencies uh have built into their policies um concrete measures to measure the risk that a victim faces and what would be in the best interest to hold that offender accountable um you know I'm not a big believer in Long prison set sentences as the chair of the Public Safety Committee at the House of Representatives I I'm not sure that that uh you know um filling up our prisons is really the best idea when we can offer people an opportunity for rehabilitation so um I I would just you know tell people that that you know that the CCR is really the the key element of it and um I I think that the other thing that that is important and and I remember early on that this was some one of the things we had to convince uh duth interveners judges and prosecutors and probation officers and through our training that what what was important is is that they really need to understand the power differential between men and women when there's been domestic violence and I think that gets lost uh it certainly does on the on the on the line off police officer for instance who goes to investigate a domestic um you know they're going to see men and women acting out in all kinds of ways when they get to that household but if you're trained and understand the Dynamics of what's going on you're going to understand that a little bit differently and you're going to recog nize the kinds of control that a batterer can have over a victim so when when I think you were mentioning earlier about a pro prosecution policy where victims where where the the charges are not dismissed um um very easily I that you know that all plays into that whole philosophy is is that there's so many forces that a batterer can use not just power in the relationship but power in the system uh to uh get the victim to drop charges to not show up at the hearing to not testify I mean the fear of physical retribution the fear of losing your children the fear of being left penniless I mean there's a whole lot of reasons why a victim responds the way she does when she's in um a very difficult criminal justice system to maneuver uh so I think that you know that tight CCR understanding the power differential and and making that come alive to people uh in the system of what that looks like and why the victim and the perpetrator are acting the way they are uh and then I think you know finally is is that uh you know um what what works when you think of any social problem what works and and our thinking has always been whenever you confront a social problem which is why I think cognitive behavioral treatment is so so effective is is that you really have to start helping men who batter uh understand become more reflective about their own thinking and their beliefs and that is really uh is the underpinings is that if he doesn't change his beliefs about women uh and using violence to settle problems he's going to continue to batter her you know it doesn't you could put him in therapy it's it's not it's not going to make a difference because he's he's not at a place where he can be reflective uh in in on that kind of level so I think that the at the very Basics you know you need to help men understand the intentionality of their violence where those beliefs come from what the effects of that violence are you know one thing about domestic violence is It's very effective it gets it gets you what you what you want but I think when I've worked with offenders over the years I've always said you know you get what you want when you use physical vience violence you might shut that person up you might stop the argument but eventually you know you're going to drive her away no one wants to be battered no one wants to be humiliated and and she's going to resist you and at the right time she's going to leave that relationship and so so there's I think that uh that's we want to present that dilemma in our men's groups and I think if you could sort of explain that to systems people maybe maybe I'm being a little too convoluted here but I think those three elements are are key to to making change and and making her safe and and and have and making sure that he's taking responsibility for his behavior yeah so Michael kind of tied to what you're were just talking about there's a question about you know there's kind of this belief that once an abuser always an abuser and you know this person saying in their Community they're um basically they're not even really referring to matters intervention programs anymore because the lack of success per se and so um but what I did hear you say earlier and kind of know myself you said that there's no there's no data or any evidence that shows that anything else Works um as well do you want to add to that I'm just kind of reiterating to the question but I want to see if you want to add anything to that at all yeah you know I I guess I would go back to you know the statement I made earlier when when Ed gondal who's one of the preeminent researchers in our field um you know did the his force uh uh for city um research and found that um five years after an offender had gone through the treatment program and completed uh that 70% of these offenders were not using physical violence that's that's a pretty significant number uh and this wasn't just rearrest this was talking to Partners about uh about change Behavior so I I think that a lot of the research out there is skewed uh for a lot of different different reasons because some offenders quit the program um but if the the people who complete the program and stay in their relationship the recidivism level uh is quite low now I would argue that there is a small percentage of offenders probably 20 25% of offenders who are going to continue to batter and continue to batter other women when they get into new relationships so we may have to be thinking more strategically about how do we contain uh that group of off Enders but let me just correlate this to other social problems I mean when you think about the success of substance abuse treatment for instance you know I I think it's about less than 50% of of people who have drinking and drug problems uh are going to be you know quote successful uh when they get out of inpatient or outpatient treatment so we have these I think incredible expectations on what a batter or treatment program is supposed to accomplish so we really have to think about what what is the end goal here and part of it is is to is to create a community deterrence from further acts of physical violence and uh so I I just think you know if if that question is asked of you as an advocate or a domestic violence worker by a judge or a prosecutor or the news media well none of these programs seem to work so why should we invest money into them I would just flip the question you know because I deal with this all the time at the State Legislature when they ask about outcomes well what would you do in its place what alternatives do you have if you don't offer people a means for rehabilitation are you just going to put them in jail I don't think that that's the answer so you know we're going to struggle I think over the years uh trying to figure out what models uh have a little bit more success but U but at the end of the day um you know I I I think that the argument is is a bit mov and I I would always just flip the question is you know then what would you do with them and they're not going to have a good response okay and so you know part of what we want is kind of in our last bit of time the last 10 minutes or so or under 10 minutes is kind of think about kind of the future and uh thoughts about the domestic violence field and you know why the Luth models up um what we have pioneering approach and you know in part is that you know the do model just got this recognition Michael you went to Geneva Switzerland recently to accept the award for the world's best policy to ounce against women and girls and um from the United Nations and part of that is because it it can be replicated you know pieces of of it around the world but you know think in terms of like moving forward kind of where we've been with the work like one of the pieces um you know in terms of the approach and thinking about doing the actual group piece just for a second can you say a little bit about the approach and and if you've observed groups that other people have done so for example Michael you know there's kind of this push about uh when doing groups about teaching people things but really doing it in a way in which we're telling people how to live their lives um you know and the duth model and its process work you know is very very different and that's the piece that um rarely ever gets captured uh you know so there's that part of it but also as well you know there's a lot of programs that are starting up for example online and you know that's kind of new wave and move so can you talk a little bit about um in terms of the men's nonviolence class a little bit about the process part of it and kind of where you see the field is going yeah excellent question Melissa I uh and I'm glad you asked it because I you know I'm trying to do this I missing so many things but I I think that uh you know uh Ellen and I have really struggled developing the curriculum back in the mid 1980s and we brought together um the late Susan sheer and Barbara Hart and um Joe Morris and Miguel Gil some of the key people around the country that were doing this work and and uh we were trying we had this curriculum Ellen and I had developed and we were so proud of it because it dealt with all of these different causal factors for demestic violence it dealt with stress alcoholism childhood trauma we had a whole list and and you know at this at this we went out to this cabin and we looked at the curriculum and everyone was just sort of dissatisfied with it and we were saying what's wron with that we work so hard and and uh I think it was Barbara Hart said I think we just need to come down to the fundamental uh question here is why do men batter and we came to this conclusion that that men who batter batter because they want what they want when they want it and so it's that whole sense of entitlement and where does that come from and I I talked a little bit about sort of the the philosophy of Oppression and what we what we borrowed a lot from when we created the curriculum was from the late Brazilian uh educator Paulo theri who really helped us understand that if you engage people in dialogue uh that they will think more critically and reflectively about their lives and so much of that curriculum is based on his teaching and I I actually was educated as a teacher and I and forar talks about the way I was educated and you said it's called banking education in other words you you impart certain information into that person's head or that student's head and they repeat it back to you well that's the way a lot of programs operate um but they really don't help the student if you will uh think on a more different uh more deep on a deeper level so what the curriculum if you use it correctly and a lot of people don't or don't know how to but if you use it correctly uh you are able to ask probing questions of the men in the group that you're not blaming you're not shaming but you're really curious as a facilitator why this person thinks the way they do I mean what if someone says there can't be two captains of one ship where does that belief come from uh does it come from society does it come from uh your your family of origin uh where does it come from help us help us understand where where you got that Knowledge from you know he might say something and then you'd ask him another question but it's that process of dialogue and engaging men and believing that they have the capacity to change their thinking and beliefs that I think is is really quite fundamental so um that's the first part of your question there was another part that I miss what about the online sort of you know that's kind of yeah about where it's going can you say a little bit about I'm very very fearful I I uh drafted and and got pasted the state the state statutes here on standards for domestic abuse programs in Minnesota and and I'm just shrined by what's happening in my own state which I always think is so Progressive is that you can actually take a an eight- hour online anger management class and satisfy your probation conditions for for treatment and this is not just in Minnesota it's going on all around the country so um I I just think that uh you know there's there's people that are unfortunately making money off of this but they're really not providing a good services and you know change and transformation takes a takes a long time now we can argue whether a six-month program or a 52-month program is better um but I I it it takes it takes a long time and and the process is very challenging the group should be very challenging um so I uh you know I don't know U you know necessarily you know state standards are changing uh you know as as we speak um but I think that there should be some basic principles and philos philosophies and policies that batter or treatment programs uh should abide by and I mentioned one earlier about reporting back to the criminal justice system for instance but it's also like having a you know a philosophical understanding about this issue I mean if you believe that you know what you have here is a communication problem between men and women or if you believe that you know this that the offender in your group has an anger problem uh or has abandonment problems I mean you're going to you're going to reach them and provide treatment based on on those different theories and that and that philosophy and and I would submit that the that the that the issue is much bigger and the men that I have seen who have been successful in changing their behavior have been those men who have really struggled with these whole with these Concepts about about masculinity about what they were taught about uh men and women this sense of entitlement uh and then I think the bottom line is is that you can you can you can have a respectful uh uh egalitarian intimate relationship with a woman uh and and I think that that we need to put that out to to men who are ordered into our programs or who volunteer into our programs that it doesn't have to be this way every batterer that I've ever met has been an unhappy guy and has not been you know provided the kind of role modeling for their own children and I think we need to put out uh some ideas uh and and and uh about about a different way of being uh which is also before we end I want to just say that I I really do think that prevention is going to be the next Frontier uh and I and I know there's some Innovative things going on around the country but I really believe that men and uh and men who go through our programs uh should be get actively involved in engaging uh men and boys about this this whole social issue because it is our culture that creates men who batter and creates men who rape and creates uh men who buy women for sex and you know all of these intervention models are successful up to a point but until we really change the culture in which we live um I think we we're still going to have a a major struggle on our hands so Michael um you know just want to acknowledge that it's 3:00 on my clock right now um we did say 60 minutes so I because we started at 20:06 I'm wondering if we could just take there's a couple really important questions that I know just you know I want to acknowledge uh take a lot more time but I do think they're worth at least asking and pre uh bringing up that people have asked here and one of those is that um the the the person says I've observed that that using the criminal justice system as a primary intervention can result in drawing poor communities and communties to color into the system disproportionately how do you address this lack of fairness within a CCR could you just give us just some initial thoughts about that knowing that we don't have enough time to sort of you know take this to the full discussion it deserves yeah you know that that that is you know a problem I you know I would be the the first one to admit it that you know when I I've always been a strong believer in mandatory arrest uh policies um but uh you know whenever you're involving the criminal justice system in anything um there are going to be unintended consequences and I think this is a big one uh that you know in communities of color you're uh you're going to have a fair amount of distrust of of law enforcement uh in immigrant communities you're going to have um women who are going to be reluctant to call the police because um you know fear of being ostracized by their own Community but also fear of deportation and fear of of the police depending on what country of origin they came from so there there are a lot of of issues that I think are are problematic and so uh whether you have a program started uh or you're starting a program or trying to enhance your programs uh I think it would behoove you to involve communities in color of color and and immigrant communities uh into um how what kinds of policies uh need to be impl to address this issue you know I I would just you know add is is that you know sort of like this this question about you know what's the alternative and um I think that that would be that that's part of the Dilemma so if you say well you know this this is um uh that that too many black men or too many Hispanic men uh the Tino men are going to end up in the criminal justice system with this kind of model I would say well then what is the alternative which is a difficult question because do you not want women to be able to call for assistance if they're being battered by their husbands um but you know there is a broader policy there about you know what would it take to make that that Community uh safer um and make sure that offenders who are brought into the criminal justice system are treated uh properly we see this around the world too where there's you know a lot of people think that our arest policies in the United States make sense for domestic abuse offenders but what if you have massive human rights violations in your jail so it's a complicated issue unless you bring people who are most effective uh to the table to help them sort through uh what kind of policies would uh uh would be best to prevent some of those things from happening we could probably spend an hour on that one but I um but that's that's sort of the short answer sure I just wanted just to add to that Michael I mean part of the CCR process as well is to do some monitoring and some you know case review and so I know that that's what some communities have done is they've said you know let's sort of take a look at what's happened here um I remember an Institutional audit that was done actually in Minneapolis that that looked at that that was they actually wrote a big uh paper on it about how it ended up happening that way and one of the things that they found out was that the way they organized their police officers was to do high level Patrol in the areas for which there was a high level of crime well it kept sending them back to the same neighborhoods over and over and over right by this practice so inherently and this community you know had um a large population of of black men and you know and black families and so it just kept ended up happening there so I think that the institutional audit model as well can help sort of uncover some of the practices that um bring this up and then of course we never want to underscore the racism that's happens you know in in this country Tre at at levels that you know are still disheartening um at least myself I'll say but yeah I just want to thank you for acknowledging a complex question in a short amount of time um we are coming up to the end so Michael I just want to you know there's a number of other questions here we're not going to have time for today but we are going to invite you back and um just can you want to just end with a few thoughts and words um just kind of thinking about this last hour of time yeah well first of all let me thank you Melissa and thank the de for um for putting on this webinar and for everybody who joined I apologize for the technical problems I would have uh um but uh um let me just say you know i' I've been in the field for a long time I you know wear two hats as a politician as well as a an organizer and a practitioner and uh you know it you know it's much criticism that's out there um I I think that we really have to um you know take a a broad historical look and uh and recognize that we have really made some significant progress I mean I'm you know it's easy to get dismay um you know we in Minnesota anyway we had a real spike in domestic homicides this last year and you keep thinking through what you know what mistakes have we made and how could we do things better and did the system fail and uh you know on the other hand you know we we've just seen some dramatic changes there's there's more services now uh even with living bu budgets than there ever were for for victims of domestic violence I think we know more about the issue uh I think more that there's better training now for people in the criminal justice system law enforcement officers on how to intervene so you know you have to take a look at uh historically and in 30 years we have we have made some significant progress and domestic violence is actually declined and I'm just very excited about uh the thought of really moving into this prevention field I I just really believe that that's going to you know if we're ever going to really make make some significant changes and ending violence against women that that's gon to that's going to be the next struggle but I uh um you know it's I guess you know a fair amount of people joined this webinar and that says they care that says that they're doing good work and and we just have to keep engaging in a in a powerful dialogue and and we will see change great thank you Michael thank you want to thank everyone who's on and just on this last slide um Michael just want to say they started a new nonprofits and that's kind of where he's at right now um education for critical thinking and you can find the websites on this last slide here want to tell you that this is being uh recorded and will be up on our website as well as the PowerPoint so that'll be available there um we want you also to know that we are going to be doing um a Del model training actually here in duth junee 9th through the 12th wanted to say it's going to be an experiential training meaning that we're going to have lots of opportunities to experience for example our 911 dispatch Center doing ride alongs with police observing uh Criminal Court meeting with prosecutors judges um observing men's groups so we encourage you to consider that as part of learning more about the duth model and also just want to say that you know um the Delo model in part is a bit of a philosophical way of thinking and so if you're interested in all the details of the description of it's also available on our website at www.the Deluth mod.org um so I want to let you know that our plan here at GP is to uh offer three to four informational webinars like this one per year and then uh and those are free of course then we'll be doing some training ones for those of you that have attended our trainings we'll be doing some follow-up training ones for a very small fee if you've attended a training here at bdp would like some additional training and um you know I I think because of your popularity Michael we'll probably have you back and so thank you for your time because I know you're very busy at this time of the year and just want to thank everyone for being on here um I put my email um on here executive director atth Deluth mod.org so if you want to contact me with some of those questions to follow up with I'm happy to do that as well uh thank you for your time and have a great day and we'll end the webinar now