If there is no good narrative
from scientists to inform policymakers and stakeholders that this is relevant and
Indonesia should have a key, there is no incentive for
both academics and policymakers to allocate research in that direction. GITA WIRJAWAN: Hello friends,
today we have Bagus Muljadi, assistant professor
at the University of Nottingham. Bagus, thank you so much for coming. BAGUS MULJADI: It's a pleasure. Your background and life journey
are very interesting. Tell me about it,
you were born in 1983, and your education didn't really predict that you'd end up where you are today. Please tell us your story. I was born in Jakarta and grew up there, but I can't say specifically where because I rented a house
and moved every year. In the south, east, west, or what? Mostly in the center, east, north. My parents are still here. So I was born into a family of
small entrepreneurs, not excessive. And there were many problems at school
from elementary, middle, and high school. Because you were lazy, naughty,
or unfocused? Maybe because I was not obedient, so there was a tendency
to always break the rules, so there were many problems,
both from report cards that were always... that's why when my parents
were called to take the report card, it felt like Halloween to me, scary. And that lasted until
I graduated from high school. Then I enrolled in Institut Teknologi Bandung, in the Mechanical Engineering program.
- Amazing. When I enrolled, it was amazing. But it wasn't extraordinary, because I graduated in 5 years with
a very below-average GPA, which was 2.69 at the time. Maybe it's unimaginable now
because of GPA inflation. But even at that time,
it was already difficult to find work. - What did you major in at ITB?
- Mechanical Engineering. Why Mechanical Engineering? I actually dreamed of becoming
a painter or a band member or a writer. When I was in high school, I liked to join the band,
I competed in poetry reading, etc. - What did you play in the band? Singing?
- I used to sing. I wasn't good, but I was pretty confident,
singing a Dewa song. I wanted to enroll in
an architectural program actually. So I applied to private university, Parahyangan University
and ITB Mechanical Engineering, because mechanical engineering
has engineering drawings, etc. My mother said, "What will you eat,
if you keep drawing, you'd better study
Mechanical Engineering." But at that time,
I was accepted at ITB, where the tuition fee
was less than 5% of private universities. My parents (said),
"If possible, just enroll in ITB. If you go to Parahyangan (University),
(it costs) 7 million." I eventually got into the engineering program
and have been there ever since, albeit with a detour. So I graduated from ITB in 2006,
spent five years there. And if you want to get into a job,
you need a GPA of 2.75, even international companies
require a GPA of 3.0. - Were you stressed?
- Very stressed. I was thinking of pursuing a doctoral degree
to increase my bargaining power. I couldn't go to European countries
like America or Europe because it was expensive
and far from my parents. So at that time we were thinking of
going to China, maybe Korea, or Taiwan. So I arrived in Taiwan through an email that happened to be replied to
by a professor there. I told him that my research...
it's a world-changing. He didn't know the difference. At that time he was convinced
by the email I wrote and he convinced the faculty to
accept me into the master's program. There was no scholarship there. So I was admitted there
as the only international student of the Department of Applied Physics,
Department of Applied Mechanics, at National Taiwan University. Given the opportunity,
"You can come here, but you have to work part-time, etc." Okay, I came,
as long as there was an opportunity. I ended up spending 2 years
in Taiwan doing my Master's while looking for a job. I sold pneumatic pumps. So it's a diaphragm pump for thick,
high-viscosity liquids, so it's for ship paint. - Sounds totally familiar.
- Yes. So I said, "I will sell it in Indonesia,
there is PT PAL in Surabaya." I sold it there, I got a commission. I ended up going back and forth
to Surabaya to sell it. Well, that could help pay for
college tuition. It was a struggle to finally graduate. And finally the professor there
was convinced to give me access to take my Ph.D.. I spent 4 years there
studying for my Ph.D.. I married a European by chance. - Did you two meet in Taiwan?
- I met her in Taiwan. - Interesting. She went to school as well? She's from Germany,
an exchange student. From there, Sir, I had the thought, "Well, if I bring her to Indonesia,
it might not be suitable." So I had to find a job in Europe. Well, after I graduated, there was an opportunity to do
a post-doctoral program as a non-permanent researcher
in Toulouse, France. So there, in the Math Department. So I moved to Applied Mathematics. - What field is your doctorate in?
- Applied Physics. That's actually the scourge
of my undergraduate days. Somehow series of very difficult moments
suddenly passed. I graduated and my confidence
was formed because of the hardships
that I experienced in Taiwan. I was the only foreign student there and there weren't many
who were fluent in English as you might know in Taiwan. Eventually, it gave me the courage
to go to France without speaking French, because maybe here I don't even know
how to read the letters, that's okay. I finally took the opportunity
to go to France, albeit to a different department. That's where my academic career
started to take off. And Imperial College in London
was interested in hiring me for 3 years
in the Department of Earth Sciences as a post-doc. It was the first time,
after being abroad for so long, that I felt somewhat at ease,
because I was speaking English in London. Perhaps because of its stature
as a world-class university, and eventually it helped
my academic career develop, being able to get a tenure position
at the University of Nottingham, in the Department of Chemical and
Environmental Engineering. Are you the first Indonesian
to get tenure there? No. I think there was an Indonesian who had tenure in
the Department of Mathematics, but then he moved elsewhere. - Okay.
- But in the Faculty of Engineering, I am the first person from Indonesia
in the faculty. Because there aren't
many Indonesians in the UK. People in permanent positions who are senior to me in the UK
are 35-40, depending on the year, very few. So at the University of Nottingham
there are very few, at some universities
there are only one or two. How many students in the UK
are from Indonesia? At Nothingham University,
there are about 100 from undergraduate, postgraduate,
and doctoral programs, approximately. And that's probably the average. Are there 10,000-20,000 Indonesians
in the UK? 10,000 is possible; 8000 to 10,000. There are about 100 universities in the UK. Nottingham is among the big ones. There are a hundred (universities),
8000 (students) across the UK. - You got tenure in 2017?
-
-
- That's amazing. At what age?
- 33 years old. - Well done! At that time it was quite young,
very young. Usually because for the Russell Group
for a university like Nottingham, you need 5-6 years
of post-doctoral experience, because in the UK there is no tenure, so the university has to invest a lifetime
for assistant professors. And the number of universities is limited, because universities in the UK
are closed markets, unlike in Indonesia or the U.S. - What have you been doing for the last 5 years?
- Research. That's where my research
started to develop. So I applied what is called
numerical modeling to the problem solving
of some engineering problems. My focus now is research
in the field of geo-energy, research focus in the field
of biotechnology as well, in the field of carbon capture and storage,
in the field of peatlands. So what all these fields have in common is the importance of numerical modelling for solving problems related to
flow & transport porous media. In fact, it can go anywhere. What are the challenges with peat? So, peat is the largest natural carbon sink. So Indonesia has a lot of peatland,
tropical peatland, like in Scotland also has peat
although the type is different. Peat is the most effective carbon sink
if its integrity is maintained. If it collapses, it will emit not just
carbon dioxide, but methane, a lot more harsh greenhouse gas. The problem now is how to conserve peat. Now, some of what people do
in their efforts to conserve peat only considers ecological
and hydrological factors. Ecologists assess
how many plants decay and thrive. Hydrological factors are
groundwater, rainfall, etc. But no one has tried to incorporate
mechanical factors. Because if you irrigate too much, the peatland will grow many trees on it, and that is a mechanical burden that actually compromises its integrity. Now, because amalgamating
these 3 factors is very difficult in mathematical equation. That's why ecologists are not too used to do research in solid-state physics. This is a gap and I might want to
segue a little bit that interdisciplinary research like this is rarely done,
especially rarely done in Indonesia, because of the culture of linearity
in universities. But it has many benefits and will therefore provide
a foundation for policymakers to form a peat reservation strategy—
evidence based policy. We reflect on some of
the many expertise in the UK that may be applicable to
the Indonesian system, peatlands, issues such as tsunamis, issues such as geothermal gas extraction, etc., I try to make my research
albeit it was done in the UK can have relevance in Indonesia. Is the discussion relevant? I think the discussion started to involve several institutions in Indonesia
such as ITB and UGM. I cooperate with UGM
in the field of geothermal, Indonesia has a lot of geothermal energy. There are several geothermal companies, and the potential has not been utilized
as much as we had hoped. In the field of peatland restoration, we collaborate with the Department of
Mathematics, Environment, from ITB. And we are trying outside of
purely academic collaboration to create a framework
for how to have a pathway for funding such research as well. So this is what I have been doing
besides doing research in the last 5 years, it is making a joint effort with
the academic diaspora in the UK so that we can convince
the government from both sides to provide funding in areas
that are strategic for Indonesia. This is why I am in Indonesia today with the rector of Nottingham present, the rectors of several
other universities present to bring this discussion into
the realm of policy making. So maybe that's part of the endgame. Who are the collaborators from Indonesia? From the university level,
there is Nottingham University, Coventry University, Warwick University, and we are collaborating with ITB,
my alma mater, as well as UI, UGM, and IPB. We form a UKICIS consortium
(UK-Indonesia Consortium for Interdisciplinary Sciences). We made it so that
in the network that will grow, there is a free movement for thought, students and lecturers, teaching staff,
can feel the climate in the UK and vice versa, without any geographical barriers. Now, because the consortium is
at the rectorate level, it can bring in the government of
each country to support it. Finally, what we are doing with
colleagues in the UK and in Indonesia is starting to enter into
a partnership roadmap, so it is a bilateral document
between the UK and Indonesia that provides guidance on
how to work together until 2024 in the field of research and innovation. We are starting to become a vehicle for closer bilateral relations through
interdisciplinary scientific collaboration. And I started to see an opening here to do something impactful beyond
just writing scientific publications but bringing the two countries
closer together. And it's very timely,
because the issue of climate change, yesterday we came from COP 26 in Glasgow,
everyone is talking about it, and it's a scientific issue,
Indonesia has the answer. It is time to unlock its potential
through scientific collaboration. So it's more or less like that, Mr. Gita. What will be the products
from this collaboration? – Naturally, journal papers. Because it is still a metric for
universities in Indonesia to increase their bona fides
in terms of university rankings, etc. The second project is
to initiate new funding in areas that are strategic to Indonesia. Well, that's already happened. So we convinced the government,
in this case the Indonesian government first, to create a funding scheme in the areas that I mentioned earlier,
which are strategic, of course in accordance with
the research focus of President Joko Widodo; green economy, blue economy,
digital technology, health, sustainable tourism. And universities in the UK
also provide internal funding for that. So we created a new funding mechanism
to do research. And the third is public education. We are starting to work with
media outlets like The Conversation to start telling the public about the relevance of research
related to climate change, etc., to make them care, because it's time to talk about this,
because we have some solutions to problems that the UK is
very concerned about, as well as other countries. As an academic,
don't you feel that a lot of the ideas that are done by academics don't really connect with
the wider community? I've been in the academic domain
a bit lately, I really feel that my friends
who are very brilliant in doing research, doing whatever,
in very sophisticated publications, but there are very few people who read it, and even if it is read by
people who we consider relevant, that is bridging with policy making,
there is also a gap. And this is maybe, sorry, this is a bit
of a tangent to a slightly different issue, but I see this as very unfortunate, and what you are doing is amazing to bridge the world of academia
with the wider community. This is not done by many people. Most of them are just in the bubble; academics in academic institutions, then they think, write, publish,
whether only two people read it, never mind, the important thing is that it has been
recognized by peer-review and others, but this does not connect to
the interests of the wider community, whether it is related to public health, global economy, climate change, etc. This is what might produce difficulties in what we experience
in this everyday world. Because they are not trained to do that. That's right.
Yes, I completely agree. But what you're doing is what I think a lot of other academics
should be doing. - Yes. Especially now that the issue is scientific. So let's talk about world problems. Indonesia, for example,
wants to become a G4 country by 2045. G4 is measured by GDP,
among other things, we must have a lot of capital, and to accelerate the economy
we must provide solutions to problems that are relevant to many people because economic growth comes from
solving problems, among other things. We can see what are
the big problems in the world; climate change,
maybe a few social problems, human trafficking, etc., we can see that there are some problems
that only Indonesia has great potential to provide solutions. Indonesia has more than 50%
of the world's geothermal reserves. Indonesia has a variety of languages
that provide a basis for us to teach the world how to overcome resolutions
between ethnicities, races, religions. Indonesia has the second
or highest biodiversity in the world. Food, medicine, must come from there. But these are all scientific problems, and not just scientific,
interdisciplinary scientific, if there is no good narrative
from scientists to inform policy makers and stakeholders that this is a very relevant thing
and Indonesia should have a key, there is no incentive for both
academics and policy makers to allocate research concentration
in that direction. Because they are not trained
to do that and because the metrics that are
given for academics to get promoted, it is very... maybe now there is a change, but before it was not related to impact,
it was related to metrics that sometimes did not really
have an impact. It's not that I think that citations,
publication counts are meaningless. But there needs to be
additional activities so that they don't just sit in a drawer
and no one reads them. In countries like the U.S. and UK, there are some DORA agreements to start transferring
the output of research to impact. We make case study from the impact on how Bagus' research can cure AIDS or reduce poverty from
what level to what level. We make an impact case study. And the university being rewarded
in terms of endowment has a lot to do with its impact. Now in Indonesia, I see that
it still needs to be improved. Because if by nature, academics have no incentive
to do so, the incentives from policymakers
must be such that even those who have
no interest in doing so have a reason to do so. Science communication is still
not widely practiced in Indonesia, so the public is not interested
in the issue, which makes the legislature
not interested in the issue. The UK has Brian Cox
and Richard Dawkins; although they don't necessarily talk
about their expertise, but at least they try to communicate what the relevance of this is
for everyday people. In Indonesia, I asked a student,
even a high school student, "Who is an Indonesian scientist?"
"Habibie," he said. Mr. Habibie is indeed good. But when I was asked in high school,
I also said, "Habibie". When my mother was asked,
she would say, "Habibie". So there is a thirst for a new figure that brings Indonesia to be recognized not only as a producer of
beautiful dances and tempeh, and that's all good, I miss that too, but a place where
new knowledge is produced. We have a lot actually. In the UK there is Dr. Carina Joe, in Japan there are several scientists involved
in solving the world's crucial problems, she was involved in the team
that made the vaccine and she holds the patent
for mass production, Big V, even for the British government. The public must know
that we have the answers. This is a change that I think
can not only be born from policy but must be born from the grassroots,
so that the public begins to know. And this is why I think
Endgame has the potential to be significant as a game changer. You, in my opinion, can provide
broad and deep inspiration to the wider community because you have played a role in
bridging the scientific domain with the public domain
relatively very effectively. But ultimately, it's a matter of scale. We had a casual conversation before this, if I pay attention, I'm referring to one of them, America, the number of students
from Indonesia in the United States when I was studying in the 80s,
was 16,000, now it is only 8,500. And back in the '80s, those who came from Korea, Turkey,
India, it was almost the same as us. But now Turkey and Korea,
are above 100,000, India has reached 150-200 thousand,
China 450 thousand. Earlier you talked about how we can
become one of the G4 members in 2045, now we can extrapolate, if those who study STEM,
who study Social Sciences in any place, whether in the UK,
Western Europe, in Russia, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, America,
Australia, Singapore, if the scale is far below the scale
carried out by the number one, number 2, number 3 countries, in 2045, it is easy to feel where the end is, not in terms of our existence
as a large economy, but in terms of competitiveness,
how we can compete with them. - There are very few of them.
- Yes. If Indonesian children aged 4 years old,
aged 10-30 years old are asked, "Who is your idol as a scientist?" if they can name just 5 names, that's cool,
thankfully you are one of them. - There are more great ones.
- I'm just saying. But I think it requires patience, you don't want to lose patience, because if you lose patience, who will be next to do this mission. There's a misconception, I think,
about Indonesians who study abroad, Indonesians who have careers abroad
as academics, and then when they're asked
by the media, for example, who are starting to realize
their presence there, they're always asked,
"When are you coming home?" "What is your contribution to Indonesia?" And this is reflected in
the scholarship funding policy. From 35-40, it's very small compared to Iran, India, China, academics who are in the UK,
almost all of them, I can tell because I know all of them,
yes almost all of them, are not Indonesian government
scholarship recipients, because Indonesian government scholarships require them to return home immediately. If I had gotten a government scholarship, I might have become a successful person
in another field, but I certainly wouldn't have become
an academic in the UK. Maybe I have a unicorn. Okay, but being an academic is
a huge time investment, even getting a PhD doesn't necessarily
mean getting a tenure position, you have to do a post-doc to prove that you are
scientifically independent and not dependent on
the old research group. And what happens is that once the
student gets doctoral status in the UK, and he has to go home, if he is a lecturer, he will immediately
be shackled with administrative burdens in Indonesia, he will be shackled with the lack
of research facilities that were previously enjoyed abroad. What's the point of a researcher
relying on the Large Hadron Collider when he has to come back here
and doesn't get access to it anymore, maybe he can go to Singapore, okay. But without research facilities, I'm a modeling person, so I need a super-powered computer, I need the climate as well, it's rooted in the community,
that's the problem. And I see that China had
the same problem a few years ago, they were struggling with brain drain. He thought of the millions of people
invested abroad, only hundreds of thousands
returned home. But now, China is
a scientific super power country after North America and Europe, in terms of any metrics, productivity,
journal publications, patents, etc., University of Tsinghua from 2006 (when) I was there, still below Taiwan,
now it is top 10. So it's a rough return on investment. I think there is nothing wrong
with policy makers who are willing to invest their money
in making smart people return to Indonesia. But I think the scale, like you said, the scale, let them grow first so that they can bring in
several times the investment. I don't like to talk about morality actually, because only God knows
people's morality, the nationalism that
Indonesian students feel there, it's not for me to judge. We are talking about the utility that they can come back as
people who have more selling points, even they don't have to come back actually they can make an anchor there to make the allocation of research funds
from the UK, Europe, wherever not to Chile, not to Mexico,
not to China, but to Indonesia. This necessitates principal investigators
from research who understand the magnitude of Indonesia's future. So things like this may be what I feel because Indonesia's diplomacy abroad
still needs to be improved. Let me give you this example, in the UK, I just found out that for the FCDO
of the UK Ministry of Foreign Affairs, there is a Chief Scientific Officer who provides scientific advice
for foreign policy. We don't have that. How are we going to talk about
climate change? What about digital diplomacy, IP,
things like that, the metaverse, there are property issues there. The blindness to scientific issues
in foreign policy will really make our bargaining power
and then our soft power not as high as we want. But these researchers who are
overseas students can help. Indonesia is the most invisible country. I teach in a class that has about
32 nationalities out of 200 people. I said I'm from the biggest country
in Southeast Asia. Until they get to Indonesia,
they pass Cambodia first, Laos, Thailand,
they are not comfortable, "Malaysia!"
"Uh no, just a little further down." Then Indonesia. It is peculiar. But the scientific communities there
can help. That's why we need what you said if we are serious about our dream
of becoming a scientific superpower, a knowledge-based economy. A knowledge-based economy requires
improved institutions as knowledge producers, resources as knowledge carriers,
and knowledge exchange. Who will do that?
Who is the agent? Who will do that?
Who is the agent to do that? You need students at MIT,
you need academic staff at Harvard. It's common knowledge
among my friends, not Singaporeans, Malaysians, Indians,
Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, even Americans, even Europeans, that Indonesians, when they go abroad,
they go home. The ones who don't want to
go home are Indians. - Yes. To become prime minister.
- After that it's the Chinese, the rest are from other countries. But it is common knowledge, this is the first thing I want to emphasize, this is related to the paranoia about
Indonesians who don't want to go home. The second thing is, if there is no place in the cage then it becomes
a misallocation of resources. And I've told this story many times
about a movie that I watched in the 80s, "The Fields of Dreams", there's a saying that's
very meaningful to me that it's about a guy who dreams
of building a really cool baseball field in the middle of a rice field, and he thinks about how he can
bring in famous baseball players. There was a senior person
who said to him, "If you build it, they shall come." It's like saying,
if the infrastructure here is built, anyone, be it at the University of Nottingham, in other places around the world will return, as long as
there is an alignment of interests, alignment of requirements and qualifications. And when I always talk about
brain drain, I don't believe it. I don't believe in brain drain. Because every minute that you allocate
at the University of Nottingham, it will accumulate for a very noble cause once you return to Indonesia, whether it's in 5 years,
10 years, or 20 years, rather than you returning now
and continuing to do nothing. Going back to scale, I see and I often dream, can you imagine it or not, you know, this is related to
your talk about soft power, if there are 100 million Indonesians
who can speak English, if there are 100 million Indonesians
who can speak Mandarin, if there are 100 million Indonesians
who can speak other international languages, believe me, Indonesia's narrative
will be much cooler. And now it's hard for us to compete
with people from India who speak much better than us, because they can speak English
and can also speak well. And geopolitically America, Western Europe, China, and whoever, is more sucked in by Indian talk
than our talk, this is talking about soft power, how we can softly generate
a global presence; geostrategic, geopolitical, geoeconomic. If 100 million people from Indonesia
can speak English, can speak anything that is recognized
in the international community, I'm sure people around the world will have
a different perception of Indonesia. Right? It's not as difficult as it might
have been until recently to socialize Indonesia's existence
to increase Indonesia's relevance. But this also has to be holistic
in the sense of why aren't there
200,000 Indonesians in the U.S., why aren't there
200,000 Indonesians in the UK, why aren't there 200,000 people in China, why aren't there 200,000 people
in Germany to learn anything. Yes, I think maybe it's because of
the 'brain drain' that you mentioned—the concept,
the scale, the timeframe. I see in terms of
the capacity of Indonesians... Because my career path in academia
is not common, even for Indonesian academics in the UK, most of them graduated from
Harvard, Cambridge, on average cum laude from S1 S2 S3. And I've never seen anyone
who might almost drop out, become... I saw that everyone around me
was a Harvard graduate. So in terms of the intellectual capacity
of individual Indonesians we have it, and there must be some people
who can meet your quota of 200,000 who can speak English. – 100 million. - If I can do it, they can too,
that's the point. But the climate is not favorable to do that, the incentives are not there. So China,
earlier you told me about China, it has started to impose their presence
on the global stage. We haven't, we are still shackled to
the philosophy that quality is out there, we are simply recipients, we are simply hoping to be there,
we are users. There is no determination in the heart that you can do better than them. - Sorry, I'll interrupt for just a moment. China is a civilization that has been
really cool for 4000-5000 years, but they are still hungry
for knowledge everywhere, whether in Jogja, Silicon Valley,
Nottingham, Frankfurt, or anywhere else, in America
there are 450 thousand Chinese, in Europe, in England, crazy. Imagine this is a civilization that has been
really great for 4000-5000 years, they should have the right to feel
that you come to me, you learn from me, I can teach you, because I've been great for
4000-5000 years. But they are hungry to externalize people to learn in any field. And they have a strategy, Mr. Gita,
from bottom-up, or from top-down. And the majority of those abroad are not funded by their governments. Back to your point earlier.
Sorry I interrupted your talk. That's okay. They have people who are thirsty
(of knowledge). China is a unique country because they are
politically intact for thousands of years; it has changed a little bit,
but pretty much intact. And it's got a kind of
rich sense of unity that's... its own homogeneity. And they have a thirst to study abroad, and they have a thirst that I see as
the dominant individual difference between China and Indonesia is their thirst to see that
their individual ambitions are not penalized by the social system. The more ambitious a Chinese is, the more society rewards him. This is an example of a great person,
he is ambitious. In Indonesia it is not like that. So self interest is penalized. What is good is the communal interest. Just a little success,
when to serve the country. Indeed, one must be devoted
to one's country, but China does not
immediately ask each individual when to be devoted to China;
be the best, be the very best. And it manifests collectively. And they filled some of
the biggest universities in Anglo-America and now they are reaping the benefits. And they have great confidence
in their own culture. Earlier, Mr. Gita said,
"You should go back to China, etc." We feel the gesture of maybe having
Indonesian diplomats in Europe or wherever; in fact, sometimes I think encouraging
Indonesians to study in the UK is good for gaining knowledge, but it must also be for someday
UK people to study in Indonesia. Because if not,
we're doing the British embassy's job. I'm sure with your presence
in Nottingham, British people will think about
going to Indonesia. I have that kind of faith. Because indirectly, unconsciously, you are promoting Indonesia
by being there. But in my opinion, for example,
in terms of entrepreneurship or business, the comparison between
Southeast Asia and China, if we look at the last 30 years, Southeast Asia's GDP per capita
has only increased 3 times. In China, during the same period,
it increased 10x. There are several differences. The first is, of course, the much more
massive infrastructure in China. The second is of course education, for PISA, which measures the proficiency
of young people aged 15 to understand languages and STEM,
they are number 1, Singapore is number 2,
Indonesia is number 71, out of 78 countries measured. From that alone we can see that Southeast Asia and Indonesia have
certainly underinvested in education in the last 30 years. But the last attribute that I think
is very interesting is the desire to compete. So if I look at it, the business licenses
issued in China per 1,000 people is 9. Meanwhile in Indonesia; 0.3. From there, it's relevant to
what you said earlier. What's the problem?
Because of licensing or... - It could be bureaucracy
or perhaps risk-taking capacity. So Indonesians may not want
to take risks like the Chinese. The Chinese are much more willing
to take risks to cross the border, to open a restaurant,
or to study, or whatever. Maybe Indonesians don't have
that kind of risk-taking capacity. I don't want to talk about bureaucracy. Apart from the bureaucracy, I think,
in general or structurally, we might be able to escalate
the capacity to take risks. – I'm taking a detour, Sir,
because I have a strong opinion on this, the key is education. – Okay.
– Education, even though I didn't say the etymology means meaning, but there are 2 roots from the words
"educare" and "educere". Educare is to pass on the knowledge
of fathers to their children. So perpetuating knowledge. So producing people
who are good workers, etc., bequeaths an order. The second is educere, which means
to lead out of chaos into light. So produce people
who can see risk as opportunity. People who know
how to capitalize on chaos. That's the other side of education. But the ones who can, like you said, are the ones who are creative
and tend to be non-compliant, the ones who can't fit into the evaluation
domain of the educational system that tends to be conformist, like that. Now these people usually don't fit
into the academic domain because they are penalized
in the academic field. He's a person who makes trouble,
other things, who thinks out of line. These people are considered
as human failures. So the education system is now changing. The essence of independent learning
is the derivation of Ki Hajar Dewantara; student-centered learning. The point now is that it is not the teacher who imparts the knowledge,
but the students who must be facilitated. “Ing ngarso sung tulodo,
ing madyo mangun karso”, those at the back, "Tut wuri handayani",
pushing forward, all students. So that he can manifest even his
potential creativity to take risks, the education system
has to water that fertile soil. Well this hasn't happened yet. Even in universities,
such students are penalized. The difference with China, I think, is that Indonesia is a post-colonial country. So there's a kind of hierarchical structure
that we've been introduced to, even before the colonials
there were kingdoms, but since the colonials, there's a kind of hierarchy
that makes Indonesians think that there are levels of strata that
only certain people can live in. Then the colonials left,
filled in by our own people. We see this in any structure,
including education. So in Indonesia there is the same level
of professorship, by name, as in America. But only by name. Because in America, associate, assistant,
full professors, it's egalitarian, even me with my students is egalitarian. In Indonesia, it is not like that. In Indonesia, there are levels
that keep people shackled – in the hierarchy.
- Must call the Doctor, Professor. – So hungry to be called by
the academy title. In America it's really you and me.
Teacher to student; they use "bro" even. I ask my students to call me "Bro"
or my first name. Yes. I try to get Indonesian students
to call me Bagus. It's not good. "I'll call you: Sir". - This all makes...
- Understand. Limitations to take risks. – There is movement,
indeed now maybe because... - But this needs leadership. If we continue to blame
the colonial system or our colonial history, we will not be able to get out
of this bubble. And this is of course with the interests of
positive or constructive disruption. – Leadership.
- Yes. And that leadership can be manifested in the household,
at school, at the office, in ecosystems, RT/RW, urban districts, etc. And I always say,
I don't really care about the curriculum. I care more about the teacher. That has more influence on
the quality of education. Indonesian teachers, lecturers,
only less than 15% have doctoral degrees. I'm not saying that qualification is
automatically the same as competence. But at least someone who has done
a doctoral degree knows what an experiment or research is. The problem in this world is always who can provide solutions
to problems the fastest, because the world is always
moving and changing rapidly. So people should get used to
doing research in a short time. If the professors have never done research, what is the relevance of
the curriculum taught in class to the real problems in the world, there is no link between
education, research, innovation, the lecturers have never done research, right? Even if he has done research, from his doctoral degree,
he goes back home immediately, and is burdened with administrative shackles. I am not a special person,
let alone special intellectually. I am a benefactor of a mature ecosystem. If my peers are given
the same opportunity, they can certainly become greater. So the key is not individual competence, but an ecosystem that has not yet
been established. That's why lecturers in Indonesia, who are ... there are 4,607 universities in Indonesia
not including the Ministry of Religious Affairs. China with a population 5x bigger than us (has) 2000 (universities),
UK 100 (universities). Our problem is not a lack of lecturers. - Quality.
– And the quality gap. – I have said many times that
if a teacher comes from the top 20%, he can teach one and a half
academic years in a year. But if he is from the bottom 20%, he only teaches 6 months a year. Yes, it's easy,
it's a multiple choice question. Let's choose from the top 20% only,
don't choose from the bottom 20%. And just start from there. That doesn't mean the curriculum
can't be improved. But if the teachers aren't changed,
it's hard for the quality of our education to be much better than
what we've experienced so far. And wrapped again in the context of
welcoming our existence in 2045, our relevance must really be felt not only by ourselves
but also the whole world. I see that for the sake of
education everywhere, we need to be open to ideas, to anything
for the sake of improving ourselves. And this goes along with
everything I've often said about the paradox between the democratization of information
and the democratization of ideas. Information is massively disseminated, but ideas are not massively created. This is very paradoxical. And this I think can be correlated with how we may not be doing enough
or showing openness to new ideas. - Totally agree. Universities should be microcosms
of democracy, for one. Ideas that have not yet entered society
are tested there. Information that is controversial or has a tendency to get people talking. I've always wondered,
and perhaps I'll segue a little, what the term "Professor" actually means, and why it's used in universities.
Professor is from the word 'profitery' 'to profess': to speak openly
about something. So perhaps because of the church culture
of 1000 years ago, a person who could say things
that tended to be blasphemous was protected in the university setting so that his ideas are tested
before it enters society. So the structure of the university
is like that of a country, with a senate, an executive, etc. So that's the point. So if you have an idea,
it has to become a university culture first. Is it possible for a university to become
an incubator for cool ideas that emerge. Or they are shackled with measures
that make them forget their main purpose as professors, like that. Now for a professor to get promoted, he has to fulfill some kind of credit,
called KUM, not that there is no need for credit. But this credit is a huge
administrative burden that makes them stick to metrics,
not to impact, not to idea review, etc. There are structural changes
that need to happen which requires leadership
who can understand this so that there is an incentive for the university
to return to its original function. All of us in this room were products
of university at one point in our lives. So whatever is trending at university, will be trending the next 5 years. If universities are only seen as instruments to produce good workers,
it is only educare, not educere. The university is not just about doing ... If the labor producer is vocational,
vocational education, vocare; called. The university makes people think. So we want to make it structural so that
these lecturers are not burdened with, especially their status as civil servants, right, there needs to be
a crowd funding research mechanism so that they do not depend on
one research funding channel. So that the community with ...
can have continuity for academics to capture what ideas
are relevant to the community. Industry must be closely related
to the university. Now there is none at all. Industry does its own research,
universities do their own research, the government must intervene there in order to share the costs and risks of joint research between
these 3 structures. There is a lot of homework, but I'm sure
there will be a strong path going forward. This is what we intend for
Indonesia's best education system, as well as for our children
and grandchildren in the future. Can you imagine that
any school in Indonesia is filled with the best talents
from all over the world, not just from Indonesia? If we are able to show openness, "To teach biology we don't have
a cool teacher from our district, can we find one from another district? If there aren't any,
can we find one from another province? If not, can we find one
from another country?" For the benefit of our children
and grandchildren in the future. That, in my opinion, is a product
that will be really cool for our future. And I still feel like we are not there yet to be able to show openness to find the best talent to fill the vacancies. Look, Mr. Gita, I'm sure you have heard of
the pyramid of needs. (Abraham) Maslow. People have different incentives
at different levels of the pyramid. My parents come from a modest family; for them it's safe for next month's income, and security may come first. Climate change, biotechnology interests that are still a few years away, there are...
I could even say the privilege of people who can think up to that point. Even though this will affect
the lives of many people in the very near future. Because the world is very volatile. So it's not like the 90s where Nokia and Coca-Cola
were constantly on top. Now anyone smarter than
Mark Zuckeberg can probably top the Facebook link
in a week. So whatever happens now,
the impact can be in a matter of days, for the people at the bottom. So what is important is leadership that can translate
the importance of our need for biotechnology expertise for the survival of many people so that the constituency feels compelled
to make this a priority. If we look at politics in Indonesia, who includes the issue of science
and technology as an urgent issue? That's why I said before
that I don't like to talk about morals. What I see as important is the incentive. - There's no incentive...
- There's no reward system yet. - If there is no reward system in place, where can the issue come from? Especially climate change. In fact, if tomorrow we are ordered to
close coal, all of that, surely all will be affected. A narrative that can be understood
by people who are still in the lowest needs pyramid, so that they begin to realize that in the near future there will be
a coming flood. And my point is,
when I talk about climate change, whatever we have to do, it doesn't have to be a zero sum game, it can be transitional, everyone wins. And this needs outreach and education
to all stakeholders. And I was already up in my lungs
talking about how this could benefit
the existing paradigm as well. But still. Indeed, when talking about things
at the top of the pyramid, patience is needed because this is
a long term. Although the immediacy of the impact
can be felt by many people, but as long as we realize that
this is long-term, we have to be patient, I still believe that with incrementalism we can achieve our ultimate goal. Okay, we've talked about openness. The last one is regarding education, in my opinion, critical thinking,
this is somewhat lacking. How can we cultivate so that
critical thinking is strong and the cultures that exist in
civilizations that are really cool are thick with the capacity of people
to agree or disagree. It's not necessary to always agree. There's a kind of confusion about
the concept of manners that means you can't disagree, but that's not what manners mean
at least in the UK, where I am. We can be polite, but if I am wrong,
I will definitely be reprimanded, regardless of where I am
in that strata of higher education. So critical thinking really depends on people who are willing
to question hierarchies, question important issues,
regardless of where they are, people who are blind to power balance. There should be a system in Indonesia
to give rewards to... not everyone is creative. Actually, people who are creative, are many students creative? No! The creative ones are only maybe
5% of the population. There are people who think they are
creative even though they are not. Creativity has something to do with
ideas and problem solving, if it's just creation, it's not creation. There are very few creations
that have benefits. And they usually revolve around people
who have personalities that always question authority. Our education system has to make
room for that person, and even provide rewards, incentives,
for them to continue to be there. So that others can become good workers and in every institution
there must be rewards. We see that the bureaucracy is
still hampering such people. In terms of education,
it is still shackled by conformity. If I want to be promoted
to become a lecturer, many ask, why not just become
a lecturer in Indonesia, not that I don't want to, I also want to. But lecturers in Indonesia are still
shackled by what is called linearity, that the S1, S2, and S3 must be the same. Because the quality must be assessed
by the central government to advance the rank of these educators. If the research field is not linear, who can have the capacity
to assess its quality, then it must be linear, then the hierarchy cannot be separated
from the Indonesian education system, perhaps due to limited resources, I don't want to blame why
research funds in Indonesia are small both in terms of nominal or percentage
even compared to ASEAN countries. But there needs to be a major change
in the structure of Indonesian education if we are serious about producing
people with critical thinking, because these people are outliers, these are not all creative people, outliers. It is your duty to create the best system so that society is manifested
in the best way. So what's happening now
is that the outliers, many of whom are in the UK
and are unaware of the structure, simply go their own way,
and we end up benefiting from people who could be safe
taking on dangerous lifestyles so that the rest of the community
can enjoy them. We are grateful, for example,
yesterday Elon Musk was at the G20. Elon Musk was already rich
before he created Tesla. If he stops, we won't get any benefit. We are grateful to outliers,
a little crazy, creative, anti-autocratic, to continue to spearhead progress in
the scientific or engineering fields. Can Indonesia become
a fertile land for that, become a field of dreams
for people like that. Not everyone who returns to Indonesia
wants to be facilitated or to have a good life. There are idealists
who want to go to Indonesia so that they can make an impact,
because the meaning of their life is there, not because the salary is big. When it comes to salaries,
I think the world is now, you said earlier that
there is a lot of liquidity, everyone's income will also increase. But the meaning is, can Indonesia provide
a situation for that person, if I can be here, I can make a huge impact. If in Indonesia there is a field of dreams,
the players will definitely come. So if I'm asked
whether I want to go home or not, well, if my impact here is bigger
than my impact there, then why not. No need to ask, it's automatic for you. – Yes. Because the problem is impact. In terms of salary,
in Indonesia, yesterday I drank coffee in this area,
the price is the same in London, Sir, it's also expensive. I sometimes think
how to have more openness, how there is more critical thinking or
a culture of critical thinking, but is the inertia because
they are shackled with unconsciousness and/or arrogance
at the leadership level. I do not know. I don't want to speculate. It's easy. If we really think about a long future,
without these two attributes, it's hard for us to do it. – That's right.
There are many people who ask, if I become a minister,
I will be asked about everything. If I become a minister, I will do what;
if I become president, I will do what; if I can make policies, I will do what. There is arrogance there. Because it seems as if the policy
can affect the culture that you said earlier. In fact, the opposite is actually:
culture shapes policy. On a micro level,
policies can indeed make a difference. But at the macro level,
it is culture that shapes policy. Why did America come out with
a system of capitalism, free speech, etc. Max Weber said that there is something
rooted in the Protestant Calvinist ethic. If you don't work, don't eat there. There is freedom of speech because
logos or speech has the highest strata in Judeo-Christian culture. Capitalism or a more submissive system
in continental Europe. It's the product of thousands of years. For Indonesia to produce a culture
that makes it a fertile ground for critical thinkers to grow,
it must have an ingrained philosophy. Actually we have, even though I talk about Pancasila, but there aren't many who can narrate
the relevance of the state's mindset to practical problems, Mr. Gita. If you ask anybody in the UK or
in America about bipartisan debates, it is always rooted in
what makes them America. Talking about abortion, etc.,
they always prioritize individual rights. The only issue now is that
either the mother or the baby is referred to as an individual. But the point remains that
individual rights are the most important. It's ingrained in the protestanic system. In America, sorry, in England,
communal values are very important. In Japan, service to the Emperor,
that's important there. What in Indonesia?
Where should we look? What are the governing equations for individual
Indonesians to judge practical matters. How do we facilitate the critical thinkers. What is the utility of an Indonesian nation,
is it nationalism? Okay, fine, nationalism is in Pancasila. Humanity is in Pancasila.
Belief in one almighty God also in Pancasila. Unity is in Pancasila.
What's the relevance? We can even say that there is
a chance for Indonesia to become a pioneer in climate change because anyone who acknowledges
that there is one almighty God must also have respect for God's creation. Animals and fauna, all of God's creation. So there are strong ideological reasons towards Indonesia
as the 'steward of the earth'. Who said so? From where? Is it from a lecturer
or from a religious leader? Because of the current pandemic,
people … My mom asked, "Gus, can I eat ginger?
Ginger is said to be good for COVID..." She didn't ask the university. Perhaps she asked
her own religious community. So with points like these,
we have to start being literate, Mr. Gita. - Interesting. Lots of homework for us. Look, you've felt ... We talked earlier about how there are so many ideas
developed by scientists, but I don't know how they don't connect
with the wider community. The pipe is stuck. And I see that my academic friends don't feel the urgent need to clean these pipes. And this, in my opinion,
is what causes political polarization in various countries. Because those on the left are increasingly
seen to be over-intellectualizing. Okay. So this is disregarding those
in the center, in the middle and especially those on the right. And this one on the right doesn't care. "Well, I was presented with a person
whose name is Donald Trump, I was offered people who are a bit unique." This, in my opinion, is an overreaction
to the over-intellectualization carried out by the left. The leftists, in my opinion,
don't want to clean their pipes, even though they have done
all-out research, there are dozens of books,
dozens of journals, but only two or 400 people read them, which those in the center or
those on the right don't read. Because they have made no effort
to pipe their content here. I think this is one of the reasons
why there is a polarized conversation. Now, I see that perhaps
the practical solution in the academic domain is mentoring. So there are supporting actors
who can bridge the communication. If I look at you, you've made it on
your YouTube channel, right, how you can teach basic concepts. And then if that can be scaled up
in a simple way, done by other academics, I don't know how I intuitively see that this will be able to centralize
the conversation, not polarize the conversation. That's a very good point. Are you sick of hearing...
Scientists say this, scientists say that; what is its relevance to us, and why are we becoming alienated? OK, I already know you're smart. Number one,
there needs to be language translation from academics to non-academicians and even people like
my mother and father to understand what the point of this scientific enterprise is. What's in it for me,
where can I participate. Because if I can't participate, what's the point of me
making it the main issue. Even industries that are SMEs,
the middle class, should benefit from academics. I granted, Sir. So in the UK,
not in the UK, anywhere, there is something called
a 'technology readiness level'. I have a good idea about
solving mathematical problems, from there to making the people
in front of this building benefit, it's a long way to go. The 9th technology readiness level
has just come out with mobile phones, even from it, there are still problems
with coverage—the price is expensive, until it can be lowered down,
it is very, very far away. If they are left not communicating
with each other, they will be apathetic about it.
That's what happened in Indonesia. – Who cares? You can't solve it.
– Could be antipathy. Not just apathy. – So there is always a struggle
over who owns it, not authority, sort of the ability to give answers
to the public, from which we know right or wrong. Okay, there was a time before modernism
that the church or religious people had some kind of hegemony to do that, then modernity came in. The scientific community
can provide answers, and can even provide answers
that are understandable, that's where people ask questions. If we live in an ivory tower, unable to answer practical questions, people will start asking apathetic, anti,
what's the point of you being there? That's the point. So this is our homework. And I think forums like this and forums in other places
should always be encouraged. And I think there's been a lot of desire
from the people now, especially during the pandemic, Sir. Because that's where they ask
whether the shaman is right or not. That is in my opinion
a wasted opportunity. – And answered with empirical science.
– That's right. Empirical science can provide answers. There are two words that are
fundamentally different in meaning. Sometimes we do things
based on confidence, but I think it's more important
to do things based on clarity. And maybe people's trust in
what a shaman is saying is based on confidence,
not based on clarity. But science, to me, is more about clarity. How to get 1000 people at
the University of Nottingham from Indonesia,. up from 100, so that they can learn to seek clarity
rather than confidence. Confidence is needed, but in my opinion,
clarity is more important. – That's right.
Regardless of what you said about clarity,
it was born from people's understanding to extract what is right
from what is wrong. So scientific thinking is
what Indonesians should have. He should know that there is
so-called inductive reasoning that gave way to the birth of the method because there is no way
from forever to forever that there is a way called
experimentation to get answers. There was a time when people didn't know,
maybe before Francis Bacon, why did you have to do experiments,
why did you have to have empirical evidence. What is empirical evidence? There was
a time when people didn't know that. Then modernity was born, Francis Bacon, where truth was born from
deductive reasoning that was prone to errors
due to words, etc., to become inductive reasoning. People should know that instead of
experimenting to find the right answer, experimenting is to invalidate
the wrong answer, exhausting the quota of wrong answers. Research has a risk, there is no 100% answer
with 100% accuracy, there is only probability, science does not say that
this answer is A 100%. It's more important for people
to be able to think like that, to have clarity of mind; if there's a new pill, the probability is 98%, not 20%, but there's a rational argument
for taking it, because it makes more sense. The shaman gives 100%. If you put this up,
your soul mate will 100% come. – Yes. You must believe me.
– Trust 100%. – And the way he narrates his narrative
is full of confidence – 100%.
– Yes. – So that's why if people don't
understand how to think scientifically and the scientific community fails
to do its job to educate people to think scientifically,
then we are blessed with quacks. - Yes. Or superstition. Don't antagonize the people
who go to this shaman either. Where else should my mother go. My mother doesn't go to the shaman.
But where should she go? She has to go to UGM, ask a lecturer
in the field of the Faculty of Medicine, come there also don't understand,
that's the point. – Let's talk about 2045, I yearn for a future where we can
really show maximum productivity. Just to give you an idea,
our productivity, it's approximately 24,000 dollars
per person per year. Singapore 190,000 dollars
per person per year. In the end,
it's all about competitiveness, right? If we want to compete,
we must increase productivity. And we won't be able to increase
productivity without focusing on STEM. Because STEM is real,
it can increase the productivity of any nation. And in my opinion, this investment
for the benefit of STEM knowledge must be carried out massively
in the future. What you are doing as a teacher
in the STEM field is extraordinary, but how can you cultivate
far more prospective teachers and prospective students in the future
so that in the end, especially if this is embedded with
the existence of artificial intelligence, the existence of biological intelligence
and singularity, or the amalgamation of these two things will be very manifested in a very
real increase in our productivity going forward. Now, if we continue with
the previous reviews, we really have to see far more
Indonesian students participating in STEM,
not only in Indonesia but anywhere else where they can get
solid STEM knowledge. – It's not just a problem of only a few
who still want to participate in STEM programs, but there's also a problem of
only one gender… – You see, the diversity, right?
– The diversity is still a problem. It hasn't been a problem to some extent, but it's still male-dominated. We need the smartest (person)
to join STEM. If you can become an educator,
that's even better. In Taiwan, because I've been in Taiwan, the smartest Taiwanese is studying
semiconductor related fields, - because he's the dominant player.
- TSMC High paying jobs are all there. So in Taiwan, it's not actually
the medical majors that are the smartest. The smartest segment of society
goes into Electrical Engineering or Computer Science. I also discovered that, more or less,
microfluidics has incentive there. The problem is that
in Indonesia there are no companies that can absorb these fields. If I have a doctorate in
a very exotic field of STEM research, really avant-garde STEM research, where is my market?
My market is definitely not here. Well, this is contrary to
the scholarship provider's strategy. So they were given money to learn about STEM
abroad, but they had to come home. Where should he do that. So who wants to take that? I'd better take fields that
when I return to Indonesia later, I can do this, right,
commerce or market or Social Studies, so it's not too difficult
to find out why that is. – The objective of this is to allow
for openness in order to bring about a change
in policy or posture of thought. – That's right.
– I see that maybe this forum can be used to disseminate noble interests that if we want to produce
a much larger number of STEM students than what we have seen so far, maybe we don't need to put too much
pressure on them to come back here, that might be one way. Secondly, perhaps,
I like undergraduate financing. Why has the emphasis been more on
master's and doctoral degrees? Because if the argument is that
it will be more expensive to finance someone for 4 years or 5 years, but economically, it can be justified, right? – Depends on the timeframe.
– That's right. If we finance people for 4-5 years, but we know the benefits
or economic benefits, the pluses far outweigh
the minuses in the future, this is an investment for decades to come, there's no reason to allow things like this. Yesterday, I chatted with a friend
at MIT who is 80 years old, he has supervised 2 Nobel laureates. The two of us were talking about
how come only one Indonesian every year gets into the undergraduate program at MIT. I only use MIT not because
it's the only one, but it's one of the many universities that can produce amazing products. There's no reason why we can't get
50 people a year into our undergraduate program. Because that's what China, India, etc.
have done, even Singapore has far more than us,
it can be 10-20 (people), even though it's a small country
with a population of 5.5 million. And the metrics they measure or look at
are just science Olympiads. And it really can be mass produced, we have proven that we can produce
amazing products, right? - Yes. Many gold medal winners. So we just need to give them guidelines, how many months, how many years,
for them to win, whether it's gold, silver, or bronze, whether it's biology, physics, math, etc., so that it will be seen to change
in the next few years, suddenly there are 5 people, there are
10 people, there are 20 people, who enter. – There must be a good strategy. Why do we need doctorates, masters,
and bachelors degree? If the argument is for a good
investment of capital as quickly as possible, of course it's a doctorate, when he returns,
he can immediately teach. So the point is that the timeframe strategy
must be well thought out, because not all of what we need
are doctoral students, what we need are very young graduates
with high competence to become manufacturing actors
in Indonesia. This is needed by those
who are especially literate... because the curriculum in England,
in America is of course based on research
that is relevant to the industry there. Being an undergraduate student there, they must be familiar with
what's happening in Silicon Valley. He'll be here when he's young. I got my PhD
when I was almost 30 years old. If they are young, maybe not yet married,
full of energy, he will be the prime mover. As for soccer players, I talked to you earlier, like Arsenal, in every soccer team
there must be an experienced captain and there are speedsters, etc.,
who are still in their 19s. We want all Andrea Pirlo,
it's not possible to have all playmakers. - It can't. It has to be complementary. Some are younger, some are in the middle,
some are above; S1, S2, S3. – LPDP, all must have a strategy
based on a certain time scale, and S1 has arguments to be there.
I think so. If we want to construct it simply, Indonesia will be really cool
if in America, in Europe, in Australia, in China, Japan,
the representation of Indonesia was at least ten times larger
than it is now. And I always imagine that 100 million Indonesians
can speak foreign languages, it's different. What people say about Indonesia
is different. Therefore, each of them will be a storyteller. You are an Indonesian storyteller
in Nottingham. But can you imagine if there were
99,999,999 more who could talk like you, and maybe just the basic ones
for conversation. OK, this is the last question.
What are we supposed to do again? We've talked about a lot of things
that we have to do to get us to the golden age of 2045 in terms of physics, math, education,
philosophy, or whatever. There are a few things I could talk about, but the most important thing is,
reflecting on what you said earlier, hundreds or even millions of Indonesians
are fluent in foreign languages, yesterday we had a Youth Pledge, we acknowledge that we are united territorially,
in terms of governance, and our language; Bahasa Indonesia. We are fluent in Indonesian,
270 million people speak Indonesian. But now is the time for us to look outward. Indonesia no longer has to be
an invisible country. – Invisible and inward.
– That's right. We have to reflect now on other countries that have successfully strengthened
their influence abroad, and Indonesia needs new ambassadors to tell the story of Indonesia, to bring Indonesia to the world, to narrate Indonesia wherever they are, they have to be in prominent institutions, they have to bring Indonesia's interests there. If they are physically in Indonesia or abroad, in a world that is increasingly
connected globally, that is possible. I can get here in 12 hours via Singapore. OK, no problem. But we need a narrator in which Indonesia ... through it can have more
soft power going forward. And there needs to be coordination
between policy stakeholders so that diplomacy from
the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is connected with
the Ministry of Education and Culture, connected with
the Ministry of Finance, etc., so that everything is included
in the same framework as Indonesia's strategy towards
a global super power in the future, even in the scientific domain. – Wow, cool!
– It's a matter of time. Nobel, when do you think? How long can China get the Nobel? – Decades.
– Yes. Nottingham has 2 Nobel laureates there. One, for discovering MRI, another, for discovering theory in economics. So I'm a benefactor of the ecosystem
where there is a Nobel laureate there and there is a legacy in the field of MRI
which I myself use in research even though it is not my capacity
in the field of medicine. If many Indonesians go there,
it opens up the mindset. The problem is not that
we are not smart enough, Sir, the problem is that we have not been
introduced to the standard of a Nobel laureate. – That's right. Exposure. – Exposure to, “Oh look, this is
the standard of a Nobel laureate." - We can say, "Ah, it's just like this." - That's the way it is. It's more difficult to study at ITB
than in Taiwan, Mr. Gita. It's actually more difficult there. It's very, very difficult. But he doesn't know what
the standard of a Nobel laureate is like. He doesn't know what the daily culture
of a Nobel laureate scientist is like, what he eats every day,
what he discusses with the community. Well, if many people go there he knows, he will get used to
the standard of a Nobel laureate. – But I want UI, ITB, UGM, ITS, Binus, etc. ., to be in at least the top 50 in the world. It's still a long way off. You interact with them, is there a yearning from them to get into the top-50, top-40,
top-30, top-20? Nothing, right? - I see there is hope.
- Okay. Timeframe? – Timeframe, I'm an applied mathematician, I look at trajectories so I can extrapolate even though it's not the only way
to predict, but it is the most common way. The ranking of universities in Indonesia in
five years has actually increased relatively. The only problem is that it rises
because it meets the standards set by the ranking authority. There are universities
that have special strategies and even spend money just to
move up in the league tables. There are those who are really strong
and they move up on their own. There are two things.
What I see in Indonesia is that they are really hell-bent on metrics, so that for a certain period of time,
they can boost their rankings, but the intrinsic thing is that
they have research power that really justifies their position
in the league tables, that's another thing. There are some measures
that we can pay to increase, for example, the composition of
overseas lecturers or overseas students, just pay for it. But paper productivity, paper citations,
we can't pay for that, that's the point. So I'm afraid that even though
the trajectory is going up, one day there will be
a saturation point there, because they have used
all the criteria that they can pay for. That's the point. So that yearning in the short term
will make us dazzle "Our ranking is going up!" In fact, to be in the 50th circle is not just the composition of
international students, it is really pure research capability.
We haven't played at that level yet. – How can we cultivate a culture where
10 years from now, 20 years from now, we have to get there, that's really cool. – You must be oriented towards
the problem you are going to solve. So don't just look at how
we want to improve our ranking, we have to look for problems
that Indonesia can solve. Technology is driven
by problem solving, by war, aerospace engineering,
it accelerates in time of war because there is a need there. If there is no clear articulation that
Indonesia should play in what field, is it geothermal, is it digital technology, if there is no urgency there, the improvement in the quality
of academics and research in that field will stop there. But if there is a really urgent need there, everyone will work hand in hand there. The government must know
where to put people's incentives to work together to solve the problem. Because we can't solve all the problems, gender equality,
how to solve the problem, human trafficking.
There are problems that we can solve that everyone is competing for, for example, yesterday I went to Bali, everyone was talking about EV,
there was Elon Musk there. The biggest market for EVs is in Indonesia,
especially for electric aircraft. Indonesia is not China,
which is a continental country. The mode of transportation in Indonesia
that should be cultivated through electric transportation methods
is aircraft or electric ships because batteries still have limitations. We have the market
and we also have the resources. Just playin that field,
or play in strategic places. The publication of excellent journals
in that field will increase there. But don't prioritize 100,
it becomes the shopping list. Priorities should be narrow,
three or four. The only problem is,
once you rank in priority, people who don't get in there
will definitely be hurt. Why don't you put my problem in there. There needs to be firmness too. Well, that's easier said than done. Lastly, gender, what do we have to do to get more women participating? There is nothing that differentiates
men and women in terms of intellect. The data is clear. You measure the IQ across the spectrum, there is no difference between
men and women. There may be changes in the distribution field,
but quantitatively it is the same. The difference is probably interest. Interest is something that can be modified,
social engineering if you may. That there is a need in the STEM field that calls for talents of women. Even though Indonesia actually
has a lot of homework compared to countries like the UK which have more female Chancellors, Indonesia still has 3 Chancellors
at large universities, at Unpad, at ITB, at UGM,
the Chancellors are women. Actually, compared to Japan, it's still easier to become
a female Chancellor in Indonesia, but it's still lacking, there needs to be a demystification
of STEM in the female community so that they no longer
consider it a scourge, let alone a male domain. We talked about education earlier. The essence of education is to aim
at manifesting ourselves in the greatest version. So, making that person's potential
come out. And I don't think men have
a monopoly on STEM talent, and it's time for Indonesia
to have more talent from a bigger pool. And if only men could acquire
the STEM domains, that would be a shame. We have Dr. Carina Joe,
we have researchers at Harvard, we have researchers in Japan,
associate professor, Sastia Putri. Many of them.
They are amazing women. They win awards. I just met Novalia Pishesha
at Harvard, MIT, Berkeley. Society must see them. Hera Soedoyo, who can be
a reference figure. We need more role models. Because people are more sensitive
to emulating models rather than having some sort of protocol
for, "Oh this is the way to be a scientist." people have a yearning to see models. Because the model is emulated. And it's about time we had
a new female Habibie. – Amen. Okay thanks.
- You're welcome. It's wonderful talking to you. Friends, that was Bagus Muljadi,
assistant professor at Nottingham University. Thank You.