Webinar on Disrepair Claims Best Practices

Just some brief notes on what we're going to cover, but before we do that, as I say, very welcome today to this webinar. It's been recorded, so we'll be able to share the link after the event has taken place and you're welcome to revisit it or share it with your colleagues. If you do experience any technical issues, then please use the chat box and it'll be raised with our support team, so hopefully they'll be able to assist or help you. We will be running a live Q&A, so please feel free to ask questions as we're going along. You'll see the questions and answers box, you can submit questions through that, and you'll be able to see questions put forward by other participants, so you can have the option to like these, which will push them up to the top of the list, and we'll look at those as we go along. At the end of the webinar, we will be sharing a... a feedback form for you to complete so please do complete it and return it to us we always find it very useful to get your feedback whether it's on the particular topic we're talking about today but also in relation to any other topics that you might want covered. Today you're with myself Paul Lloyd I'm a solicitor and partner in Capstix Housing Management team and Katrina Robinson MBE for the next hour ish We're going to be looking, as the first screen suggests, at disrepair claims. For the first 15 minutes or so of that, I'll be just going through a bit of a review, really, of some of the hot topics that we've seen over the last 12 months, particularly focusing on reports that have been produced by the Housing Ombudsman over the last 12 months or so, so with particular reference to a report that came out. um in october of 2021 um an updated report um at the back end of last year and kind of where that puts us i suppose lessons that we should be learning from um from that report really and things to consider uh that will be around 15 minutes or so just to give us some some things to think about in a wider context and then i will be handing over to katrina robinson um who will be going through kind of uh tips on dealing and tackling with disrepair litigation claims. So that's the kind of order of the day. So as I say, please do post your questions, push the questions up the list if it's something that you find interesting. And yeah, as I say, if there are any concerns, put it in the chat box and we'll be able to refer that to our technical people who might be able to assist and help. So that being said, as I say, just for the next 15 minutes or so. I would like to kind of look at some of the guidance and things that we've been getting from the ombudsman over the last 12 months. And I think particularly because I think that, you know, we need to look at what's being said to challenge ourselves in terms of how we can adapt or change our policy and process and procedure. Around disrepair, yes, but clearly there's been a huge emphasis in recent times on, you know, the spotlight around damp and mould. And the first report I think everybody really should be aware of, and I think... I say you should be aware, and I'm sure many of you have, are aware of it and probably have read it. But I think it echoes many of the things that people like myself and Katrina say during training events, which is kind of focusing on, you know, adapting our own policies and procedures, training people internally to try and deal with dish repair generally. But in this context, it clearly focuses on damp and mould. I think the headlines of the report from the Ombudsman. in October 2021, which as I say was focused on damp and mould, was that for a period between April 2019 and March 2021 there were some 1,595 complaints of damp and mould that were dealt with within a landlord's complaints process. Within those there were 410 formal investigations due to dissatisfaction with the landlord's response to tenants when they'd made complaints. As part of that process then the Ombudsman then found or made findings of maladministration in 56% of those cases having investigated 142 landlords and finding maladministration against 92 of those. That's kind of just to set the context around damp and mould and some of the concerns that have been raised by the Ombudsman during that period on the backdrop to that. There were a number of recommendations which were put out there for people to give due consideration to. These recommendations were broken down into a number of areas. The first chapter that was given due consideration was that in relation to landlords looking to become more reactive and proactive. I had originally thought, well, let's have a look at some of the ombudsman's decisions and see what they say. But. There is a theme in many of those decisions which is focused around maybe a failure to follow policy and procedure, maybe a failure to keep people updated effectively as to what's happening and when it's happening, maybe a failure to act quickly or give due consideration to personal circumstances within particular investigations that are being carried out by the Ombudsman. So I thought, well, you know, we can look at those. But I think in reality, in... most of the time, I think that we're aware of what those issues are. So I decided not to do that and really just focus on some of the highlights that we can take out of the recommendations. Again, just so that we can consider them ourselves, we can take them back to our teams, which I think is very, very important. And I'd say the first chapter of that report I mentioned a moment ago was looking at challenging landlords to become more proactive than reactive. So clearly what that means is, well, what can we do to proactively deal with in this particular context around these reports, damp and mould? But I think that that's something that we can take to a wider context of disrepair claims and how we deal with them internally. And that means, you know, in the context of damp and mould, having a zero tolerance. So how do I how do I identify where there are issues and how can we tackle that effectively when we come up against it? But also, how can we find where we see that there are issues within our stock? So. You know, as the reference is made to the second bullet point on the first part there, finding your silence, which I think is really just a reference to, well, what do we do to try and find issues in advance of being told about them? Do we? And again, you know, I guess when I look back at, for example, when the fitness for human habitation legislation was being discussed and debated, there was a lot of talk in the context of that legislation of landlords looking to be creative in how they could assess their stock. give due consideration to the bill type, the age and so on, in order to maybe find issues in advance so that they could maybe triage their services to ensure that they are dealing with things in advance of receiving complaints. So it's part of a generic good practice in asset management. And I think really that's what finding your silence is about. But also about being transparent about that, being open about the fact that you're actually actively looking. to be proactive in the approach that you take to dealing with stock surveys and how you will assess and direct your repairs. And I think in that context, in the general context of all housing management, certainly, and certainly the context of damp and mould and disrepair, about constantly challenging your current practices. Now, many years ago, I did some work at a university and one of the issues we were always trying to get students to consider is reflecting on what we've done. And I think that there should be a constant reflection of what are we doing now? What are we seeing? What can we learn from that? And how can we change the approach that we take? So challenging the practices with a view to always improving what we do and how we do it. And also in the context of being proactive, being data driven. As I said. there have been and I'll touch on some of the good practice which was highlighted in the follow-up report to the October 2021 report but being data driven what information do we have and how can that effectively assist us with dealing with damp and mold but also in in general terms in relation to dilapidations or disrepair issues that we might have within our stock so how can we change what we do to have data assessed effectively to be able to direct the services. And maybe, you know, the contractors or people we have internally to be able to deal with issues as they arise. So the big part of the report was about looking to try and change how we do things. So not waiting, but being proactive. And as I say, there were, in the context of that report, I haven't got time to go through it all, you know, 10 specific recommendations or highlighted issues in relation to becoming more proactive. Sorry, more reactive, excuse me, and proactive in the context of our asset management. The second chapter of that report. Sorry, Katrina. Sorry. The second, I think it's the previous screen, actually. But it's also about taking responsibility. Now, there was a concern and there still is a concern, even in the follow up report, that there seemed to be, you know, a culture maybe of of uh inferring blame when it comes to particularly damp and molding properties and we all have to stand up and reflect on how we deal with those and the language and knowledge that we use so considering how we respond to tenants i think one of the things we regularly say certainly you know and again in the context of housing management generally is remaining objective in our views of how we engage with our tenants certainly we see that with other areas community safety and housing management and how we assess our interaction with our tenants. And I think that must be the case when it comes to damper mould issues and disrepair generally. How do we respond to our tenants and engage with them, ensuring that we aren't taking or starting from a position of pointing the finger and fault, more at taking responsibility and reviewing how we do, how we engage with them. And as part of that process. And again, this touches on some of the reasons I suppose I didn't look specifically at ombudsman's decisions is, and this crops up all the time, how robust and accurate is our record keeping? We regularly see, and I'm sure Katrina might touch on this in the context of disrepair claims, the fact that, you know, the detail that we keep maybe needs to be given due consideration. And how we keep records and who keeps records, because one of the issues you'll see is better communication within teams. within our organisation. A key aspect of asset management has to be challenging different parts of our organisation to understand the important role that they play in the context of establishing or speaking to residents and tenants or identifying issues of damp and mould and disrepair generally. Better communication between teams. We regularly have training events with individual clients where we say to people well look you know if you have income management people who go into a property what should they would they be able to identify what the an issue might be in the property do they understand the the obligations as a landlord to manage your assets do they understand the obligations that you have to a tenant in the context of managing that asset identifying concerns that a tenant might have about damp and mold identifying concerns that they might see in relation to the family makeup and the vulnerabilities within that property and how condition of property might affect them do they understand that they should be reporting that to the right people and taking ownership of those things and then when they pass it on to those other people that they should also take ownership and look to try and again be reactive be proactive and react to what they see in trying to deal with these things so robust and accurate record keeping is really really important but it needs to be important in the context of people taking ownership so if you keep records and you pass no income management community safety people housing management people uh contractors if they're identifying information or issues that they're concerned of in the context again of damp and mold or disrepair generally do they know who they should be reporting that to do they know what they should be recording And then once it's passed to somebody else, do they know that they should be taking a proactive approach to dealing with those issues? And as the last bullet point there is everybody has a part to play. And I think that, you know, I think that becomes important. But also it's only important if we explain to people why they have a role to play. And again, you know, we've delivered training to within large organizations to the people who pick up the telephone and to explain to them why. the people who they pass the call on to, external contractors and so on and so forth. So I think taking responsibility needs to be reflected upon and given due consideration. And we need to see how we can improve what we do. Sorry, Katrina. The next part of that report was, well, you know, where do we then or what do we do in terms of looking to resolve these issues? And we need to have a strategy for effectively coming to a resolution on. Again, this report was focused specifically on damper mold and the fact that we shouldn't be looking at it as a lifestyle issue. But again, these are lessons that can be learned in the general context of disrepair claims or disrepair and dilapidations within our properties. You know, what is our strategy? Is it effective? Can it be challenged and changed? You know, for example, one of the issues that has been brought up in, you know, certainly over the last 12 months because of very tragic events. up in the north of the country is, you know, tenants and their families, you know, they have different needs, you know, are we aware of those needs? Do we assess those needs? In the context of other areas of asset management, or sorry, tenancy management generally, we constantly talk about our obligations to ensure that we apply our mind to, for example, our public sector equality duty. You know, are we taking that same proactive approach when we're engaging with our residents and the tenants in the context of the condition of their property? and the vulnerabilities of people within that property? And are we then effectively giving consideration as to whether, you know, how urgent it is that work should be undertaken? If it can't be undertaken within a reasonable time, should we be looking to decamp people? So, you know, we have to consider, yes, we should have a strategy. But within that strategy, there must be space for due consideration of the specific individual circumstances of every family and the people within it. And within that claims resolution process, obviously, we need to promote accessibility to the complaints process. Are people aware of it? Are they aware of how it will operate and work? And are we aware of it, not just externally with our residents and our customers, but are we aware of it internally? and how it will operate and work. And in that context, again, this report just highlighted one of the concerns that, you know, with many organisations, they maybe felt that once they received a letter of complaint from a landlord, as part of, or once a tenant might have instructed solicitors to bring a claim, that the process kind of stopped or halted, a repair stopped or halted, and there's clearly, you know, a position where a challenge was made to that approach. And that's in the follow-up report once again said that we shouldn't be hiding behind litigation and certainly I know that's something that both myself and Katrina and our colleagues are very keen to push when we receive letters of claim. A letter of claim starting a pre-action protocol process doesn't mean that if there's an ongoing complaint it should stop and it certainly shouldn't mean that we should stop doing any work at the property. In fact we should be going out there getting that work done immediately. as part of the process and we shouldn't be stopping or halting anything. And I know in that context on occasion we hear that solicitors representing tenants might say don't let landlords in. Well that's an approach that shouldn't be accepted and indeed the pre-action protocol in this area very clearly states that. And finally in terms of a learning culture, reflect. What is the positive impact that change might have on you as an organisation? your individuals within it but also your customers again i know this report was in the context of damp and mold but it's very important to take it a step further and consider it in the context in the wider context of of disrepair litigation claims generally um yes sorry katrine if you could move to the next slide um so after that initial report so february of this year not that long ago um there was a a kind of follow-up report um And just to very quickly summarize the issues that they found in that, there was good practice that was identified. So just to give you some example of some of the good practice identified in that report, some landlords were looking at risk algorithms that helped identify and prioritize health and safety, predictive artificial intelligence, equipping surveyors with the right equipment to be able to identify cold spots and thermal bridging and those types of things. There were areas of good practice in the context of handling damp and mould reports, so removing the focus on tenants having to report and maybe being proactive, as we mentioned earlier, in stock surveys to ensure that we are identifying where there might be risks and concerns and dealing with those issues. But in addition to that, there were some concerns that were raised. And one of those things I've mentioned earlier, which is potentially hiding behind legal proceedings and stopping to undertake work. and that simply shouldn't happen. Another area was that there was still the potential, at least, for some organisations to still use language, which was, I suppose, placing blame rather than looking at being engaging with tenants to identify solutions. And clearly all of that is incredibly important to the context of our general governance, knowledge and information management, which goes to the point of ensuring that people are trained, equipped appropriately and understand the significance and importance of recording information effectively. And very, very quickly on top of that, then clearly we have the government, the government's response to the letter by the Right Honourable Michael Gove MP to the coroner on the back of the very tragic events with Rochdale Boroughwide Homes, where it's very clear that, you know, when it comes to damp and mould. And again, I must stress, I think that this should be, you know, there's reference to having specific policies and procedures for dealing with this, which is very, very important. But the lessons learned here can be considered in a wider context as well, that there is going to be consideration to changing and I suppose refreshing the housing health and safety rating system, introducing more information and assistance and help on the effects on health. of damper mold in properties um policy uh and process on the protocol and guidance on where they impact uh and where they interact i should say and and how landlords should be approaching these types of claims and also looking to bring the private rented sector within the remit of the ombudsman service so that there is um you know, clearly they are answerable to somebody also. And I think in the context of that, then, you know, there is regulatory guidance on the issues that have arisen over the last 12 months or so, specifically in the context of damp and mould. But then we do clearly have what is going to be the introduction of our law in relation to the social housing regulation bill, which we'll be looking out for, which is going to look at, you know, specific timeframes within which damp and mould should be addressed. But equally, you know, we shouldn't be waiting for that. We should be doing things now. We should be proactively, you know, reflecting on what we do and looking to improve. And also, clearly, as which has been in the press recently, the introduction of maybe an obligation to have some training or qualification for managers who are involved in this particular area. And again, I wouldn't be waiting for that. I'm sure many of you won't be. I think we should be looking at upskilling. all our employees to ensure that they are aware of this is an area of law, tenants'responsibilities to us under a contract, our responsibilities to tenants, and also the expectation upon us in the context of the reports I've mentioned to treat people appropriately, fairly, with dignity, but address and be proactive. So I'm going to stop there. There will be, as I say, opportunity to questions it's really just to kind of set a scene to a backdrop over the last 12 months i'm now going to pass over to katrina robinson mbe who's going to i suppose look at things from the point at which we we do have letters of claim and some of the issues around dealing with disrepair directly when solicitors are involved katrina thank you very much paul um for those of you who who do know me you know that i you probably specialise in swearing about disrepair solicitors but this has been recorded so I shall not be swearing today. You know it's always the case with disrepair claims that there's always always going to be cases where the landlord has failed to carry out repairs, you have been on notice and compensation is due, there's always going to be those matters. But what's happening with disrepair claims of course is that there are so many so many claims coming from, generally speaking, the north of the country, where people are quite literally just jumping on the gravy train. And it's those ones, you know, those ill-thought-out, ill-prepared, ill-run cases that make me get a bit sweary pants. So what I tend to find in respect to these claims is that a lot of the firms who are representing tenants take on so many cases they can't cope with them and they will then go completely quiet for a year and then suddenly pop back up after a year and say um our client wants compensation we want your immediate response and i say the polite version of you've got to be having a laugh you know we haven't heard from you for a year um the cases are on the whole not always but on the whole dealt with by as i say that unqualified people reading from a flow chart who used to carry out personal injury claims. And of course, they've now moved on to disrepair matters. And one of my big bugbears is that they don't know how to look properly at their own experts report. They'll go straight to the schedule of works. Oh, the cost of repairs are £1,200. Right, there we go then. So that means it will be a fast track case where they essentially get more costs. So let's issue a claim. I don't think they know how to read an expert report with any real understanding of what is in it. But as I say, we'll move on to that. A lot of the people dealing with these claims aren't supervised and they pass cases to each other so often. I've got one, for example, at the moment where for a client where the tenant moved out ages ago, ages ago. and it's been passed to so many people. I had an email saying, if you want access to carry out repairs, then my client was quite happy to allow access. And I'm like, you haven't read the file, have you? Because this is like the fifth person that's dealt with it, that your client's actually moved out. So it's those sorts of things. And they are in it not to help the tenants, not to get the repairs done. They're in it to get the cost. That is the only thing. that they are concerned about. So when you first get your letter of claim after swearing, like I do, then... Do make sure that you read it in full. It's so easy when you get these letters of claim to sort of rush through it. But do read it in great detail to see what it says. You will often quite easily spot the cut and paste mistakes that they put in it. Sometimes they will get the gender wrong because they've cut and pasted. So it will be, you know, Mr. Steve Smith. And throughout the letter it will say, OK, I'm sorry. referring to their client, the tenant, as she. So, you know, they've clearly got it wrong there. But what some housing associations and local authorities do, and I would suggest you do, is contact the tenant to see if they know they've instructed solicitors. Now, we clearly can't do that because they are, you know, to all extents and purposes, represented. So... your solicitors can't do that but you can write to the tenant and say you know we you might well have instructed solicitors and if you have then that's fine we will just deal with them but i just wanted to make sure that that you have done because there's you know a lot of sort of shady people in the market um obviously not using quite those terms um there's one particular firm going law who um are having people knocking on the door um sometimes pretending they're from the landlord or hoodwinking people. And then when some of the landlords have contacted their tenants, they're like, what disrepair claim? I don't know what you're talking about. Someone came around to ask me if I had any damp and I just signed a tablet. So do check if they know they've instructed solicitors. Often they will say, yeah, you know, sick to death. You haven't fixed my roof. Others will say, don't know what you're talking about. So, you know, do do that. Check the form of authority. Now the form of authority is where your tenant is giving authority for you to pass this information to the solicitors. Now often the signature on that form of authority looks like it's been signed by MCAT, probably has been signed by MCAT, and you're not then getting the actual clear consent to disclose personal and private information to do with finances to do with health or the rest of it we always go back and say we want an authentic wet signature that matches they will nearly always come back and say oh do you know a docusign or anything else is acceptable but this is different this is a data protection issue you have to know that your client is happy about it so you have to go back to them and say we want an authentic signature sometimes it will get the landlord wrong So you will have a form of authority saying, I consent for such and such landlord, and that's not you. So make sure that, because the tenant, someone's knocked on the door, they've scored something on an iPad, so they might not even know. And also, of course, check if there's a potential in there for an Environmental Protection Act claim. Often these are hidden on page three. you know under the Environmental Protection Act 1990 we intend to, this is a notice of intention to prosecute which means you've only then got 21 days to carry out the repairs before a complaint is laid at the Magistrates Court but sometimes they will bury that in there somewhere and as I say read in complete detail that so many of these letters have enormous contradictions in them they they will say if you intend to carry out works at this stage please let us know and provide details of the work you're carrying out and then further on down it will say um now the protocol engage you must not carry out any works whatsoever so you're like we'll make your mind up so it is not the case that because they have you received a letter of claim that you don't carry out works you receive the letter of claim if you go around there and inspect it yourself without using an expert if you identify works carry on and do them. There's nothing in the protocol which means that you can't carry works out. So don't be concerned about that aspect. You could also tell the solicitors if there hasn't been a formal complaint in respect of that issue, that you're treating the letter of claim as a formal complaint. And the Ombudsman recommends that complaints be used as alternative dispute resolution. So... That's got a mixed bag of success, depends who you're dealing with, but you can go back and say, we're actually dealing with a complaint and we're going to look at that as well as, you know, going down the legal route as well. So then you've got the joys of the expert that they recommend. You have to give reasons why you disagree with that expert. You're usually going to disagree with them because they're completely crap. Was that swearing? That's not swearing, is it? But you need to give the reasons why. One of them is going to be location. You know, if you're based in Cornwall and they're recommending an expert for Liverpool, then... If that person then has to subsequently come down and inspect again or give evidence at court or something like that, then the costs are going to be prohibitive. So location is one of them. Cost could potentially be another one. And for certain firms and solicitors, they're not independent. Dismal Kingston, who will slip of the tongue, Driscoll Kingston will nearly always use a firm. of surveyors called Paterson Harkin who are sure that you know you've heard about them. Paterson Harkin are completely in bed with Driscoll Kingston, they are not independent at all. You know my cat would do a better report, I think that's the third three mentions of my cat now, thank you very much. So you know that would be a good challenge. Going Law have got their own in the house. a surveyor who goes round, Anthony Haddari use Ultima Legal Services, who are wholly owned by Mr Haddari himself. So if they use somebody from Ultima Legal Services, then Anthony Haddari make more money, basically. So you have to look at the independence aspects of it. And also, we'll move into that the actual qualification of the expert, are they actually qualified to understand what the issues are? So looking at the actual experts reports, now I have enormous fun with these, enormous fun. Go through the fine tooth comb. Yes, it takes a bit of time. You have to get through all the gumpf at the beginning, which are replicated in many reports, which often say the same thing. But go through it with a fine tooth comb. Now, they will often recommend tests instead of repairs. So when you have a look at the Scott schedule. It will say, send around a gas safety person to check the boiler, £300. Send around an electrician to check this, that and the other, £500. That's a test. That's not a repair. That isn't identifying disrepair. It's the surveyor saying, I'm not sure. I think you better get that checked out. So let's say you've got a report where the cost of the repairs... or rather the cost of the Scott schedule is £1,200, but £500 of that is the cost of tests to see if there's any disrepair. All of that comes out. And they will often say that the disrepair in the property, they fail to say what is actually causing it. And that always really drives me to distraction. So, for example, they will say, um... there's damper mold in the bedroom and that's it but they won't say what has caused the damper mold in their view what is the damage to the to the structure of the building that has caused this to happen i had one um uh recently and we'll move on to part 35 questions but his report right at the beginning of the report he says um i will not comment on any part of the property that i haven't have access to i will not lift up floorboards you know the usual stuff that's the preamble of the report anyway in his report he says i didn't get access to bedroom two but on the balance of probabilities it's unfit for human habitation and like what is he now like doris stokes he's got a crystal ball um he then says um i didn't um see any drafts or water ingress under the patio doors in the scott schedule repairs to the patio doors 2400 pound you but didn't identify any disrepair. He also said the water in the bath and shower isn't hot enough. Well, how hot is it supposed to be? So that's why it's really, really important to go through them really quite quickly. What the tenants solicitors do, they'll go straight to the cost of the repairs and say, oh, there we go. Or they'll say, our expert says they're damp, but why is there damp? What tests have they done? Also check if they are qualified. Now there's lots of different types of surveyors. There's Chartered facilities surveyors, chartered quantity surveyors and chartered building surveyors are the three main ones. A quantity surveyor is only particularly good for saying you need 5000 bricks of this type, these sorts of tiles. They don't have the experience to understand the pathology of a building. A facility surveyor is how to pretty much manage a building. That's what they do. So a quantity surveyor in my view is quite simply not experienced enough to know. Paterson Harkin are known to pay their surveyors more if they find repairs of over £1,000. They give them a lesser rate if the repairs are less than £1,000. So I always ask. Driscoll Kingston that because it's just only Driscoll Kingston use them query their qualifications ask for copies of their certificates if you don't quite believe what it is that they're saying and definitely query the costings in the schedule of works sometimes they will put in there they will add VAT if you're using DLO you won't have to pay VAT they will always use market rates they will put things in there like 300 pound for a project manager to oversee like you like every time you do a repair you're going to have a project manager in there um which is just absolutely nonsense of course um they will also sneak in things such as 200 pound for removing um you know the the rubble from the building marks that's always included you know all that stuff is included and one of the great tools in the armory is um and you don't have to wait for a claim to be issued in this respect, is in the civil practice rules there's a practice direction 35 which within 28 days of service of the report you can ask the expert for clarification on their report. Now in the terms of that one that I had where he said I didn't get access to a very well balanced probabilities subject for human habitation, I basically went, duh, but the polite version of that was, if you didn't get in there, why is it unfit for human habitation? And he just came back and said, from the tenant's description, it sounds like it would have been. That case subsequently settled for pennies, pennies, I tell you. So they didn't get anything. They wanted £17,500. They got £285 because their expert completely stuffed them up. Also things like when they say it's damp, say, well, why is it damp? What is causing the damp? What tests have you done? Using a protometer and sticking prongs in the wall is just measuring surface wetness. It doesn't mean the property is damp. It means the surface of the wall is wet. If I throw a cup of tea on my wall, not that I intend to, and put the prongs on it, it will come back with a really high reading because the wall is wet, but not because it's damp. um now some of the experts reports um uh now do your own checks on this um absolutely do your own checks but some of the experts who are out there um allegedly she says something like he and his lot but allegedly michael savara is a name you'll see coming up um a lot he is a quantity surveyor he's not a chartered surveyor by any stretch i had a report from him recently where he said He didn't identify any mould, but on a balance of probabilities, there was mould there. I'm like, really? He says he has a degree in fine art and surveying combined, which I don't accept that at all. Charlene Smith, you might have become aware of, is an Environmental Protection Act expert. She actually works full time for Amazon and only does these EPA inspections. at the weekends so not continuing with their cbd points benjamin wood has got no qualifications whatsoever jamie patterson isn't qualified as far as i'm aware but do your own checks um david deacon has written articles about maximizing compensation which you see online um dr aaron mariner clark um all i can say there has been less than candid about his qualifications um Keith Gold is a facilities surveyor. So that's why you have to do a bit of background work. Keep, you know, keep your information, share it with other landlords. share all that information around. So we have to have lots of tools in our armory and as I say some cases are completely bona fide, others they're just on the gravy train and this is where this sort of information helps. Now when you do do your own inspections then you know a photograph is so important, it's so important if you've got photographs that are really good. bolster your case. Take photographs of the closed windows and of the air vents and of washing drying on radiators as well so if someone's got the pants and their socks all dangling wet off the radiators take a picture of it because it's really important that sort of thing is going to create moisture in the air is going to create more growth and obviously you know I will often these days get the oh you're not allowed to blame the tenant so you know it's it's partnership work and you do what you can you'll wash the mold off you'll fit a priv system but if the tenant is continuing to dry their washing on radiators without ventilating then of course there's going to be more issues um i've seen cases with tumble dryers in the lounge that vent internally extractor fans turned off at the spur again take a photograph of it all of those things um do insist on seeing every single room you If you come across a room that's got a lock on it and they say, hey, you can't go in there, that's my son's, chances are you've got a tenancy fraud case on your hand. I'll wager. I have had a fair few cases that the tenant's claiming compensation for disrepair and they don't live there, so that's a fraudulent claim. And I've had them struck out with another one waiting in the wings. So always keep on the lookout for... subletting that the tenant claiming doesn't actually live there. Also, of course, safeguarding. That's always something that you should always be looking out for. Now, another thing is ask the tenant if you're going around there about the court case. You're you're allowed to discuss it. And I have got no end of cases where I've said to the surveyor, just ask see what they say. And they're like, OK, so they go around and they're like, Oh, I've just it's just because you've issued this claim in court. And the tenants like. issued what claim in court what are you talking about because this is the the solicitors go off on a frolic of their own they issue a claim and don't even bother telling the tenant um so the tenants obviously like i'm not going to court i don't know what you're talking about i just wanted the repairs done and if you are a surveyor or sending your own um surveyors around there are indeed external ones then do take proton with some readings of the surface of the wall but use calcium carbide testing if you can calcium carbide testing is where they take out a tiny little piece of the wall um no no wider than 50 or 5p piece and then test that if there's proper real damp then that calcium car that test that comes out that bit of wall that comes out um will show that there is damp if it comes out bone dry then you're just looking that it's a surface issue so much more likely to be compensation Love Judge Judy. Who doesn't love Judge Judy? I want to be her in the next life. So in terms of litigation tips, and as I said before, do put the part 35 questions to experts. And it's quite a straightforward thing to do. You pull out the part of the report that you want them to answer, you put it down and then you ask what your question is underneath. Really, really incredibly useful, those. Part 18 requests, again, the civil procedure rules. Part 18 allows you to ask for clarity on a person's case. And you can do that in respect of statements the solicitors have made by email to do with a letter of claim. After a claim has been issued, you can again ask for clarity. So, you know, particularly the... The claimant has reported this lots of times, at least two dozen times since 2021. They'd be like, well, how did they report it when all those types of things? You want that information. Now, you also will have had offers to settle, which is always a great one. We want £4,326.19p. You think, how did they get to that figure? So, again. civil procedure rule 36.8 allows you to ask for clarity of that offer So you write to them and say, well, how did you break that down? What does that consist of? So you can see what it is they're asking, because sometimes they will sneak into their aspects which they're not entitled to claim for. So that will be the money they paid the claims management company to buy the claim off them. It will include the cost of the after-the-event insurance. So all these little things they sneak in to ask them how they've broken it down. And one of the other bits that gets me is there has to be a loss to the tenant. They're making an offer to settle and sometimes the tenant solicitors don't get this. There has to be an actual loss to the tenant. So I've got a case at the moment where there is disrepair. There are works that the landlord needs to complete, but none of them are bothering the tenant. So. There's some works need doing to the eaves on the property. There's a bit of brickwork that needs repointing, but none of it is causing any issues to the inside of the property whatsoever. You know, and it can't be that, of course, the twits on the other side are saying, well, it's disrepair and we want compensation. It's causing them inconvenience and anxiety. So I said, and I get told off. for being like this but I can't help myself I said well is your client coming home realizing that the pointing on three bricks on the outside of the building needs doing and it's causing them anxiety and it's upsetting them when it's not causing any problems inside the property so you have to focus on what is the loss what has the tenant lost by way of these repairs not being done um you know often there's no loss to what the actual issues are um you Obviously, always get the works done quickly, as soon as you can. So if it is issued, it will hopefully go into the Small Claims Court. And make early offers if you do, if you're of the view that obviously liability does apply. Injunctions for access, love them, love injunctions for access. I personally would say to my clients, it's sort of two strikes and you're out. The two strikes and we'll make the application for an injunction. The solicitors on the other side, they're not covered by the after the event insurance they take out or by their conditional fee agreements, and they rarely, rarely assist in respect of those injunction applications. You'll be dealing with the tenant directly. If you are going into settlement agreements, then be really careful about the wording of the timing of the works. Don't put in the usual, we'll get the works done in 30 days, because chances are you won't for a whole bunch of weeks. reasons you might be able to do that and certain firms like um cel and anthony hadari will issue part eight proceedings to get more compensation and more money in the blink of an eye if those works overrun by one day they will issue a claim if you come across tenant damage then recharge it um if it's an issued claim then then counter claim with it so really really simple process really simple you go along there you see that they've the tenant has damaged the bath they've smashed something into it you're like okay we will be fixing that but we're going to recharge you for it so you quite simply send them an invoice if they don't pay you then can depending on your internal processes just issue a claim and get some online for that financial aspects of it if the tenant solicitors are not responding to you because they've taken on too many cases, make formal complaints about them. I do it all the time. I just know that some of our friends in Liverpool are just like, oh, God, not her again. But I will make formal complaints to the senior partners and say, I've been chasing a response for X period of time. So this is a formal complaint. Record keeping, I know Paul touched on this. We'll just go through this quickly. One of the important things is to say why access wasn't gained. If you don't get into a property, it's so much better for you to say, they said I was 10 minutes early, they swore at me, they slammed the door, they looked out the window and said, naff off, I'm still in bed. It's so much more powerful than no access. Put a flag on your system so everyone knows that it's a disrepair claim. So your income team will know. so they wouldn't necessarily then issue a claim for rent arrears because there might well be a counter-flow. Now, when I worked in-house, because I had a quite long in-house career for housing associations, is one of my bugbears is when, if there was no access after three times, a job would be closed down. Obviously, that's not going to look great on your figures, but if you don't get access after three times, either it's subletting or there's some... potential safeguarding issue but the work is still there you know that the repair still needs carrying out so you might want to think about um you know injunction applications or some other thing writing to the tenants and obviously you don't want the work done keeping a record of that good record keeping as i say can literally save you thousands and thousands of pounds um oh and that's me i thought i was withering on more but i'm not that's a thing that we have to say So that's me done. So that was a bit of a whiz through. And I mentioned my cat, I think, four times. And I don't think I swore. Not big sweary anyway. I was losing count of how many times your cat was mentioned. Four times. We've got a little bit of time. There are a few questions there. um katrina i don't know if you can see them i know oh let me end the slideshow and i will see where those are yeah i think i think one of them uh from from gary is and we do come across this is um you know conversations with the tenant and the tenant says well i didn't want this to go that far yeah what can we do can they can they get out of it and i think we've had situations like that arise Well, what these, you know, you see all these things on Facebook and Twitter and all the rest of it. It's no win, no fee. We'll get you thousands. What they don't say is if you stop the process halfway through, we're going to send you a whacking great bill. One of my client's housing officers, I had a chat with her because she was in quite some distress. She, out of frustration with disrepair to her home, she... took up one of these no win, no fee thingies. And she said, you know, they've done the works now, I actually just want to drop it. And the solicitors sent her a bill for £12,500. So she said, okay, I'll start it up again, because they want to be, you know, sort of recompensed for it. So there's a number of things you can do. You could, if you're talking to the tenant, and they say, well, I just don't want to do this, they will often feel quite harassed by the solicitors. You could assist them with sending them the link to the SRA to make a formal complaint, make a formal complaint to the solicitor's firm, make a complaint to the SRA, that's the solicitor's regulation authority by the way, who most solicitors are quite scared of. So it's those things, always keep a note of it because if the tenant is saying that, the chances of that person coming along to give evidence at trial are really really slim, so that sort of thing on the ground. statement that the person is actually feeling slightly harassed but help them make a formal complaint to the to the solicitors i think um and then we have another uh question can solicitors again it's a bit like we yes we always have this as well but um can solicitors say you must not undertake any work or repairs without telling them or that they cannot contact the client oh coppers that drives me insane that does absolutely drives me insane you What I always say is contact the tenant, make an arrangement. Sometimes the tenant will say, I'm not talking to you, you have to go through my solicitors, at which point you're a bit scundered. What I would do is say, look, if you want to go around on the 10th, write to the tenant, say you're going around on the 10th. I then say to the solicitors, access is needed on the 10th, so let your client know. Not, does it suit, can we, all those types of things. I think, you know, going back to the kind of wider policy context of this, you know, as I mentioned earlier, it's very clear that repairs and work should not stop because there's a letter of claim. The protocol is very clear on that as well. So I think we should be going in and doing the work. Yeah, definitely. Just carry on with it. I have just an email just yesterday of a case that's thundering towards trial. My client has contacted the tenant directly and said we're starting the works at the end of the week. The solicitor said we don't agree the works, so you're not coming in. And I said the polite version of I don't give a stuff whether you agree the works or not. This is what we want to do. And we're coming in on Friday. Another question here, again, it's something, you know, I know we've looked into recently as a separate issue, but Alex raises the question, the claimant solicitors use paralegals to issue claims, but this is a reserved activity, which it is. Is there an offence being committed? I would say not, because they're under supervision. Many firms do equally, they should be supervised. I don't know, Katrina's raised questions as to whether occasions. whether they are or not on occasions, but I think I don't see that if there's an offence being committed in that situation. There's a separate issue in relation to advocacy when it comes to paralegals, but even in that context, permission can be granted by the court. And then Lillian has asked a question, how do you deal with the scenario that you already mentioned, Katrina, where claimant solicitors have advised their client not to allow the landlord to do repairs before an expert's report? even if the landlord already had the workbook to be done. Again, I think you probably touched on that slightly in an earlier question, but I think, you know, it's wrong to tell them not to allow the works, I would say. Yeah, injunction, definitely. The solicitors will always say, oh, we didn't give that advice. They'll say, we didn't say that. But you've booked the works in due to start next Wednesday. the tenant says oh my solicitors have told me to not let you in that's a direct refusal to allow access so i would go straight into writing a letter before action to say if you don't let us in on wednesday we're making an application for an injunction don't underestimate the power of an injunction to compel access on the one hand the tenant said we're going to sue you we want costs it might be an environmental protection act matter we want all this but you're not coming in which would be quite compelling when you make the injunction application. And I think equally in the context, again, just touching on the kind of, not disrepair generally, but damper mould, fitness-fueled reputation, you know, the protocol's clear that work shouldn't stop. The guidance from regulator and ombudsman is clear the work shouldn't stop. We've got members of parliament saying we shouldn't be hiding behind litigation. And there are implied terms, you know, there's a... Section 16 of the Housing Act 1988, the implied term to allow landlord access for works that they're entitled to carry out. There are other implied terms to our access to current inspections under the Landlord and Tenant Act as amended by Fitness for Human Habitation and so on. So I think in all of those circumstances, we should be, I'd agree with what Katrina has said. I had a great one where a particular firm of solicitors will always say, we didn't tell our tenants and not let you in. It was for a client. and they went around to inspect and there was a note actually stuck on the door which of course my client took a photograph off that said my solicitors have told said to not let you in conscious we kind of approach it there's another question from louis or it's a question come statement which again unsurprisingly you'll know we've come across it She'd mentioned that they speak to their tenants and advise them of the possible cost and try to ask them to close the case and make a complaint. But solicitors come back and say that we shouldn't be doing that. I would disagree entirely that that isn't the case. I mean, we have. as it's kind of colloquially referred to as the Bristol approach to dealing with disrepair litigation claims, which, and again, there's a whole focus on trying to this potential twin track and pushing people down a complaints process. We have been successful in telling people that, you know, if you look at the protocol, it's very clear. ADR and alternatives should be considered. And we've taken the approach you've mentioned. And actually, it's resulted in solicit on your side being quiet. Now, it's an ongoing assessment of where we are with that. um and we are considering you know with our clients i suppose we're sharing um the potential risk but it is working currently um so i would continue to take that approach yeah yeah definitely okay well uh we are on the hour so uh i once again extend huge thanks to everybody for attending today please do complete the the q a you know tell us what you'd like to get covered and in what format. The world is opening this webinar but we're doing other things, open access training and other training events on particular topics, whether it's specifically discrete topics or not. I mentioned it's being recorded, it will be shared and revisit it, share it with your colleagues, but huge thank you from me and Katrina and hopefully we will see you again very soon on something similar. Thank you indeed. Thanks everyone. Bye.

At the end of the webinar, we will be sharing a... a feedback form for you to complete so please do complete it and return it to us we always find it very useful to get your feedback whether it's on the particular topic we're talking about today but also in relation to any other topics that you might want covered. Today you're with myself Paul Lloyd I'm a solicitor and partner in Capstix Housing Management team and Katrina Robinson MBE for the next hour ish We're going to be looking, as the first screen suggests, at disrepair claims. For the first 15 minutes or so of that, I'll be just going through a bit of a review, really, of some of the hot topics that we've seen over the last 12 months, particularly focusing on reports that have been produced by the Housing Ombudsman over the last 12 months or so, so with particular reference to a report that came out. um in october of 2021 um an updated report um at the back end of last year and kind of where that puts us i suppose lessons that we should be learning from um from that report really and things to consider uh that will be around 15 minutes or so just to give us some some things to think about in a wider context and then i will be handing over to katrina robinson um who will be going through kind of uh tips on dealing and tackling with disrepair litigation claims.

So that's the kind of order of the day. So as I say, please do post your questions, push the questions up the list if it's something that you find interesting. And yeah, as I say, if there are any concerns, put it in the chat box and we'll be able to refer that to our technical people who might be able to assist and help.

So that being said, as I say, just for the next 15 minutes or so. I would like to kind of look at some of the guidance and things that we've been getting from the ombudsman over the last 12 months. And I think particularly because I think that, you know, we need to look at what's being said to challenge ourselves in terms of how we can adapt or change our policy and process and procedure. Around disrepair, yes, but clearly there's been a huge emphasis in recent times on, you know, the spotlight around damp and mould. And the first report I think everybody really should be aware of, and I think...

I say you should be aware, and I'm sure many of you have, are aware of it and probably have read it. But I think it echoes many of the things that people like myself and Katrina say during training events, which is kind of focusing on, you know, adapting our own policies and procedures, training people internally to try and deal with dish repair generally. But in this context, it clearly focuses on damp and mould.

I think the headlines of the report from the Ombudsman. in October 2021, which as I say was focused on damp and mould, was that for a period between April 2019 and March 2021 there were some 1,595 complaints of damp and mould that were dealt with within a landlord's complaints process. Within those there were 410 formal investigations due to dissatisfaction with the landlord's response to tenants when they'd made complaints.

As part of that process then the Ombudsman then found or made findings of maladministration in 56% of those cases having investigated 142 landlords and finding maladministration against 92 of those. That's kind of just to set the context around damp and mould and some of the concerns that have been raised by the Ombudsman during that period on the backdrop to that. There were a number of recommendations which were put out there for people to give due consideration to. These recommendations were broken down into a number of areas. The first chapter that was given due consideration was that in relation to landlords looking to become more reactive and proactive.

I had originally thought, well, let's have a look at some of the ombudsman's decisions and see what they say. But. There is a theme in many of those decisions which is focused around maybe a failure to follow policy and procedure, maybe a failure to keep people updated effectively as to what's happening and when it's happening, maybe a failure to act quickly or give due consideration to personal circumstances within particular investigations that are being carried out by the Ombudsman. So I thought, well, you know, we can look at those. But I think in reality, in...

most of the time, I think that we're aware of what those issues are. So I decided not to do that and really just focus on some of the highlights that we can take out of the recommendations. Again, just so that we can consider them ourselves, we can take them back to our teams, which I think is very, very important.

And I'd say the first chapter of that report I mentioned a moment ago was looking at challenging landlords to become more proactive than reactive. So clearly what that means is, well, what can we do to proactively deal with in this particular context around these reports, damp and mould? But I think that that's something that we can take to a wider context of disrepair claims and how we deal with them internally. And that means, you know, in the context of damp and mould, having a zero tolerance. So how do I how do I identify where there are issues and how can we tackle that effectively when we come up against it?

But also, how can we find where we see that there are issues within our stock? So. You know, as the reference is made to the second bullet point on the first part there, finding your silence, which I think is really just a reference to, well, what do we do to try and find issues in advance of being told about them?

Do we? And again, you know, I guess when I look back at, for example, when the fitness for human habitation legislation was being discussed and debated, there was a lot of talk in the context of that legislation of landlords looking to be creative in how they could assess their stock. give due consideration to the bill type, the age and so on, in order to maybe find issues in advance so that they could maybe triage their services to ensure that they are dealing with things in advance of receiving complaints.

So it's part of a generic good practice in asset management. And I think really that's what finding your silence is about. But also about being transparent about that, being open about the fact that you're actually actively looking. to be proactive in the approach that you take to dealing with stock surveys and how you will assess and direct your repairs. And I think in that context, in the general context of all housing management, certainly, and certainly the context of damp and mould and disrepair, about constantly challenging your current practices.

Now, many years ago, I did some work at a university and one of the issues we were always trying to get students to consider is reflecting on what we've done. And I think that there should be a constant reflection of what are we doing now? What are we seeing?

What can we learn from that? And how can we change the approach that we take? So challenging the practices with a view to always improving what we do and how we do it. And also in the context of being proactive, being data driven.

As I said. there have been and I'll touch on some of the good practice which was highlighted in the follow-up report to the October 2021 report but being data driven what information do we have and how can that effectively assist us with dealing with damp and mold but also in in general terms in relation to dilapidations or disrepair issues that we might have within our stock so how can we change what we do to have data assessed effectively to be able to direct the services. And maybe, you know, the contractors or people we have internally to be able to deal with issues as they arise. So the big part of the report was about looking to try and change how we do things.

So not waiting, but being proactive. And as I say, there were, in the context of that report, I haven't got time to go through it all, you know, 10 specific recommendations or highlighted issues in relation to becoming more proactive. Sorry, more reactive, excuse me, and proactive in the context of our asset management. The second chapter of that report.

Sorry, Katrina. Sorry. The second, I think it's the previous screen, actually. But it's also about taking responsibility. Now, there was a concern and there still is a concern, even in the follow up report, that there seemed to be, you know, a culture maybe of of uh inferring blame when it comes to particularly damp and molding properties and we all have to stand up and reflect on how we deal with those and the language and knowledge that we use so considering how we respond to tenants i think one of the things we regularly say certainly you know and again in the context of housing management generally is remaining objective in our views of how we engage with our tenants certainly we see that with other areas community safety and housing management and how we assess our interaction with our tenants.

And I think that must be the case when it comes to damper mould issues and disrepair generally. How do we respond to our tenants and engage with them, ensuring that we aren't taking or starting from a position of pointing the finger and fault, more at taking responsibility and reviewing how we do, how we engage with them. And as part of that process. And again, this touches on some of the reasons I suppose I didn't look specifically at ombudsman's decisions is, and this crops up all the time, how robust and accurate is our record keeping? We regularly see, and I'm sure Katrina might touch on this in the context of disrepair claims, the fact that, you know, the detail that we keep maybe needs to be given due consideration.

And how we keep records and who keeps records, because one of the issues you'll see is better communication within teams. within our organisation. A key aspect of asset management has to be challenging different parts of our organisation to understand the important role that they play in the context of establishing or speaking to residents and tenants or identifying issues of damp and mould and disrepair generally.

Better communication between teams. We regularly have training events with individual clients where we say to people well look you know if you have income management people who go into a property what should they would they be able to identify what the an issue might be in the property do they understand the the obligations as a landlord to manage your assets do they understand the obligations that you have to a tenant in the context of managing that asset identifying concerns that a tenant might have about damp and mold identifying concerns that they might see in relation to the family makeup and the vulnerabilities within that property and how condition of property might affect them do they understand that they should be reporting that to the right people and taking ownership of those things and then when they pass it on to those other people that they should also take ownership and look to try and again be reactive be proactive and react to what they see in trying to deal with these things so robust and accurate record keeping is really really important but it needs to be important in the context of people taking ownership so if you keep records and you pass no income management community safety people housing management people uh contractors if they're identifying information or issues that they're concerned of in the context again of damp and mold or disrepair generally do they know who they should be reporting that to do they know what they should be recording And then once it's passed to somebody else, do they know that they should be taking a proactive approach to dealing with those issues? And as the last bullet point there is everybody has a part to play.

And I think that, you know, I think that becomes important. But also it's only important if we explain to people why they have a role to play. And again, you know, we've delivered training to within large organizations to the people who pick up the telephone and to explain to them why.

the people who they pass the call on to, external contractors and so on and so forth. So I think taking responsibility needs to be reflected upon and given due consideration. And we need to see how we can improve what we do.

Sorry, Katrina. The next part of that report was, well, you know, where do we then or what do we do in terms of looking to resolve these issues? And we need to have a strategy for effectively coming to a resolution on. Again, this report was focused specifically on damper mold and the fact that we shouldn't be looking at it as a lifestyle issue.

But again, these are lessons that can be learned in the general context of disrepair claims or disrepair and dilapidations within our properties. You know, what is our strategy? Is it effective?

Can it be challenged and changed? You know, for example, one of the issues that has been brought up in, you know, certainly over the last 12 months because of very tragic events. up in the north of the country is, you know, tenants and their families, you know, they have different needs, you know, are we aware of those needs? Do we assess those needs? In the context of other areas of asset management, or sorry, tenancy management generally, we constantly talk about our obligations to ensure that we apply our mind to, for example, our public sector equality duty.

You know, are we taking that same proactive approach when we're engaging with our residents and the tenants in the context of the condition of their property? and the vulnerabilities of people within that property? And are we then effectively giving consideration as to whether, you know, how urgent it is that work should be undertaken?

If it can't be undertaken within a reasonable time, should we be looking to decamp people? So, you know, we have to consider, yes, we should have a strategy. But within that strategy, there must be space for due consideration of the specific individual circumstances of every family and the people within it.

And within that claims resolution process, obviously, we need to promote accessibility to the complaints process. Are people aware of it? Are they aware of how it will operate and work? And are we aware of it, not just externally with our residents and our customers, but are we aware of it internally?

and how it will operate and work. And in that context, again, this report just highlighted one of the concerns that, you know, with many organisations, they maybe felt that once they received a letter of complaint from a landlord, as part of, or once a tenant might have instructed solicitors to bring a claim, that the process kind of stopped or halted, a repair stopped or halted, and there's clearly, you know, a position where a challenge was made to that approach. And that's in the follow-up report once again said that we shouldn't be hiding behind litigation and certainly I know that's something that both myself and Katrina and our colleagues are very keen to push when we receive letters of claim.

A letter of claim starting a pre-action protocol process doesn't mean that if there's an ongoing complaint it should stop and it certainly shouldn't mean that we should stop doing any work at the property. In fact we should be going out there getting that work done immediately. as part of the process and we shouldn't be stopping or halting anything.

And I know in that context on occasion we hear that solicitors representing tenants might say don't let landlords in. Well that's an approach that shouldn't be accepted and indeed the pre-action protocol in this area very clearly states that. And finally in terms of a learning culture, reflect.

What is the positive impact that change might have on you as an organisation? your individuals within it but also your customers again i know this report was in the context of damp and mold but it's very important to take it a step further and consider it in the context in the wider context of of disrepair litigation claims generally um yes sorry katrine if you could move to the next slide um so after that initial report so february of this year not that long ago um there was a a kind of follow-up report um And just to very quickly summarize the issues that they found in that, there was good practice that was identified. So just to give you some example of some of the good practice identified in that report, some landlords were looking at risk algorithms that helped identify and prioritize health and safety, predictive artificial intelligence, equipping surveyors with the right equipment to be able to identify cold spots and thermal bridging and those types of things. There were areas of good practice in the context of handling damp and mould reports, so removing the focus on tenants having to report and maybe being proactive, as we mentioned earlier, in stock surveys to ensure that we are identifying where there might be risks and concerns and dealing with those issues.

But in addition to that, there were some concerns that were raised. And one of those things I've mentioned earlier, which is potentially hiding behind legal proceedings and stopping to undertake work. and that simply shouldn't happen. Another area was that there was still the potential, at least, for some organisations to still use language, which was, I suppose, placing blame rather than looking at being engaging with tenants to identify solutions. And clearly all of that is incredibly important to the context of our general governance, knowledge and information management, which goes to the point of ensuring that people are trained, equipped appropriately and understand the significance and importance of recording information effectively.

And very, very quickly on top of that, then clearly we have the government, the government's response to the letter by the Right Honourable Michael Gove MP to the coroner on the back of the very tragic events with Rochdale Boroughwide Homes, where it's very clear that, you know, when it comes to damp and mould. And again, I must stress, I think that this should be, you know, there's reference to having specific policies and procedures for dealing with this, which is very, very important. But the lessons learned here can be considered in a wider context as well, that there is going to be consideration to changing and I suppose refreshing the housing health and safety rating system, introducing more information and assistance and help on the effects on health. of damper mold in properties um policy uh and process on the protocol and guidance on where they impact uh and where they interact i should say and and how landlords should be approaching these types of claims and also looking to bring the private rented sector within the remit of the ombudsman service so that there is um you know, clearly they are answerable to somebody also. And I think in the context of that, then, you know, there is regulatory guidance on the issues that have arisen over the last 12 months or so, specifically in the context of damp and mould.

But then we do clearly have what is going to be the introduction of our law in relation to the social housing regulation bill, which we'll be looking out for, which is going to look at, you know, specific timeframes within which damp and mould should be addressed. But equally, you know, we shouldn't be waiting for that. We should be doing things now. We should be proactively, you know, reflecting on what we do and looking to improve.

And also, clearly, as which has been in the press recently, the introduction of maybe an obligation to have some training or qualification for managers who are involved in this particular area. And again, I wouldn't be waiting for that. I'm sure many of you won't be. I think we should be looking at upskilling. all our employees to ensure that they are aware of this is an area of law, tenants'responsibilities to us under a contract, our responsibilities to tenants, and also the expectation upon us in the context of the reports I've mentioned to treat people appropriately, fairly, with dignity, but address and be proactive.

So I'm going to stop there. There will be, as I say, opportunity to questions it's really just to kind of set a scene to a backdrop over the last 12 months i'm now going to pass over to katrina robinson mbe who's going to i suppose look at things from the point at which we we do have letters of claim and some of the issues around dealing with disrepair directly when solicitors are involved katrina thank you very much paul um for those of you who who do know me you know that i you probably specialise in swearing about disrepair solicitors but this has been recorded so I shall not be swearing today. You know it's always the case with disrepair claims that there's always always going to be cases where the landlord has failed to carry out repairs, you have been on notice and compensation is due, there's always going to be those matters.

But what's happening with disrepair claims of course is that there are so many so many claims coming from, generally speaking, the north of the country, where people are quite literally just jumping on the gravy train. And it's those ones, you know, those ill-thought-out, ill-prepared, ill-run cases that make me get a bit sweary pants. So what I tend to find in respect to these claims is that a lot of the firms who are representing tenants take on so many cases they can't cope with them and they will then go completely quiet for a year and then suddenly pop back up after a year and say um our client wants compensation we want your immediate response and i say the polite version of you've got to be having a laugh you know we haven't heard from you for a year um the cases are on the whole not always but on the whole dealt with by as i say that unqualified people reading from a flow chart who used to carry out personal injury claims. And of course, they've now moved on to disrepair matters.

And one of my big bugbears is that they don't know how to look properly at their own experts report. They'll go straight to the schedule of works. Oh, the cost of repairs are £1,200. Right, there we go then. So that means it will be a fast track case where they essentially get more costs.

So let's issue a claim. I don't think they know how to read an expert report with any real understanding of what is in it. But as I say, we'll move on to that.

A lot of the people dealing with these claims aren't supervised and they pass cases to each other so often. I've got one, for example, at the moment where for a client where the tenant moved out ages ago, ages ago. and it's been passed to so many people.

I had an email saying, if you want access to carry out repairs, then my client was quite happy to allow access. And I'm like, you haven't read the file, have you? Because this is like the fifth person that's dealt with it, that your client's actually moved out. So it's those sorts of things.

And they are in it not to help the tenants, not to get the repairs done. They're in it to get the cost. That is the only thing. that they are concerned about. So when you first get your letter of claim after swearing, like I do, then...

Do make sure that you read it in full. It's so easy when you get these letters of claim to sort of rush through it. But do read it in great detail to see what it says.

You will often quite easily spot the cut and paste mistakes that they put in it. Sometimes they will get the gender wrong because they've cut and pasted. So it will be, you know, Mr. Steve Smith.

And throughout the letter it will say, OK, I'm sorry. referring to their client, the tenant, as she. So, you know, they've clearly got it wrong there. But what some housing associations and local authorities do, and I would suggest you do, is contact the tenant to see if they know they've instructed solicitors. Now, we clearly can't do that because they are, you know, to all extents and purposes, represented.

So... your solicitors can't do that but you can write to the tenant and say you know we you might well have instructed solicitors and if you have then that's fine we will just deal with them but i just wanted to make sure that that you have done because there's you know a lot of sort of shady people in the market um obviously not using quite those terms um there's one particular firm going law who um are having people knocking on the door um sometimes pretending they're from the landlord or hoodwinking people. And then when some of the landlords have contacted their tenants, they're like, what disrepair claim?

I don't know what you're talking about. Someone came around to ask me if I had any damp and I just signed a tablet. So do check if they know they've instructed solicitors. Often they will say, yeah, you know, sick to death. You haven't fixed my roof.

Others will say, don't know what you're talking about. So, you know, do do that. Check the form of authority. Now the form of authority is where your tenant is giving authority for you to pass this information to the solicitors. Now often the signature on that form of authority looks like it's been signed by MCAT, probably has been signed by MCAT, and you're not then getting the actual clear consent to disclose personal and private information to do with finances to do with health or the rest of it we always go back and say we want an authentic wet signature that matches they will nearly always come back and say oh do you know a docusign or anything else is acceptable but this is different this is a data protection issue you have to know that your client is happy about it so you have to go back to them and say we want an authentic signature sometimes it will get the landlord wrong So you will have a form of authority saying, I consent for such and such landlord, and that's not you.

So make sure that, because the tenant, someone's knocked on the door, they've scored something on an iPad, so they might not even know. And also, of course, check if there's a potential in there for an Environmental Protection Act claim. Often these are hidden on page three.

you know under the Environmental Protection Act 1990 we intend to, this is a notice of intention to prosecute which means you've only then got 21 days to carry out the repairs before a complaint is laid at the Magistrates Court but sometimes they will bury that in there somewhere and as I say read in complete detail that so many of these letters have enormous contradictions in them they they will say if you intend to carry out works at this stage please let us know and provide details of the work you're carrying out and then further on down it will say um now the protocol engage you must not carry out any works whatsoever so you're like we'll make your mind up so it is not the case that because they have you received a letter of claim that you don't carry out works you receive the letter of claim if you go around there and inspect it yourself without using an expert if you identify works carry on and do them. There's nothing in the protocol which means that you can't carry works out. So don't be concerned about that aspect.

You could also tell the solicitors if there hasn't been a formal complaint in respect of that issue, that you're treating the letter of claim as a formal complaint. And the Ombudsman recommends that complaints be used as alternative dispute resolution. So...

That's got a mixed bag of success, depends who you're dealing with, but you can go back and say, we're actually dealing with a complaint and we're going to look at that as well as, you know, going down the legal route as well. So then you've got the joys of the expert that they recommend. You have to give reasons why you disagree with that expert. You're usually going to disagree with them because they're completely crap.

Was that swearing? That's not swearing, is it? But you need to give the reasons why.

One of them is going to be location. You know, if you're based in Cornwall and they're recommending an expert for Liverpool, then... If that person then has to subsequently come down and inspect again or give evidence at court or something like that, then the costs are going to be prohibitive. So location is one of them.

Cost could potentially be another one. And for certain firms and solicitors, they're not independent. Dismal Kingston, who will slip of the tongue, Driscoll Kingston will nearly always use a firm. of surveyors called Paterson Harkin who are sure that you know you've heard about them.

Paterson Harkin are completely in bed with Driscoll Kingston, they are not independent at all. You know my cat would do a better report, I think that's the third three mentions of my cat now, thank you very much. So you know that would be a good challenge.

Going Law have got their own in the house. a surveyor who goes round, Anthony Haddari use Ultima Legal Services, who are wholly owned by Mr Haddari himself. So if they use somebody from Ultima Legal Services, then Anthony Haddari make more money, basically.

So you have to look at the independence aspects of it. And also, we'll move into that the actual qualification of the expert, are they actually qualified to understand what the issues are? So looking at the actual experts reports, now I have enormous fun with these, enormous fun.

Go through the fine tooth comb. Yes, it takes a bit of time. You have to get through all the gumpf at the beginning, which are replicated in many reports, which often say the same thing. But go through it with a fine tooth comb.

Now, they will often recommend tests instead of repairs. So when you have a look at the Scott schedule. It will say, send around a gas safety person to check the boiler, £300. Send around an electrician to check this, that and the other, £500.

That's a test. That's not a repair. That isn't identifying disrepair. It's the surveyor saying, I'm not sure. I think you better get that checked out.

So let's say you've got a report where the cost of the repairs... or rather the cost of the Scott schedule is £1,200, but £500 of that is the cost of tests to see if there's any disrepair. All of that comes out. And they will often say that the disrepair in the property, they fail to say what is actually causing it. And that always really drives me to distraction.

So, for example, they will say, um... there's damper mold in the bedroom and that's it but they won't say what has caused the damper mold in their view what is the damage to the to the structure of the building that has caused this to happen i had one um uh recently and we'll move on to part 35 questions but his report right at the beginning of the report he says um i will not comment on any part of the property that i haven't have access to i will not lift up floorboards you know the usual stuff that's the preamble of the report anyway in his report he says i didn't get access to bedroom two but on the balance of probabilities it's unfit for human habitation and like what is he now like doris stokes he's got a crystal ball um he then says um i didn't um see any drafts or water ingress under the patio doors in the scott schedule repairs to the patio doors 2400 pound you but didn't identify any disrepair. He also said the water in the bath and shower isn't hot enough.

Well, how hot is it supposed to be? So that's why it's really, really important to go through them really quite quickly. What the tenants solicitors do, they'll go straight to the cost of the repairs and say, oh, there we go. Or they'll say, our expert says they're damp, but why is there damp? What tests have they done?

Also check if they are qualified. Now there's lots of different types of surveyors. There's Chartered facilities surveyors, chartered quantity surveyors and chartered building surveyors are the three main ones.

A quantity surveyor is only particularly good for saying you need 5000 bricks of this type, these sorts of tiles. They don't have the experience to understand the pathology of a building. A facility surveyor is how to pretty much manage a building.

That's what they do. So a quantity surveyor in my view is quite simply not experienced enough to know. Paterson Harkin are known to pay their surveyors more if they find repairs of over £1,000.

They give them a lesser rate if the repairs are less than £1,000. So I always ask. Driscoll Kingston that because it's just only Driscoll Kingston use them query their qualifications ask for copies of their certificates if you don't quite believe what it is that they're saying and definitely query the costings in the schedule of works sometimes they will put in there they will add VAT if you're using DLO you won't have to pay VAT they will always use market rates they will put things in there like 300 pound for a project manager to oversee like you like every time you do a repair you're going to have a project manager in there um which is just absolutely nonsense of course um they will also sneak in things such as 200 pound for removing um you know the the rubble from the building marks that's always included you know all that stuff is included and one of the great tools in the armory is um and you don't have to wait for a claim to be issued in this respect, is in the civil practice rules there's a practice direction 35 which within 28 days of service of the report you can ask the expert for clarification on their report.

Now in the terms of that one that I had where he said I didn't get access to a very well balanced probabilities subject for human habitation, I basically went, duh, but the polite version of that was, if you didn't get in there, why is it unfit for human habitation? And he just came back and said, from the tenant's description, it sounds like it would have been. That case subsequently settled for pennies, pennies, I tell you. So they didn't get anything.

They wanted £17,500. They got £285 because their expert completely stuffed them up. Also things like when they say it's damp, say, well, why is it damp? What is causing the damp?

What tests have you done? Using a protometer and sticking prongs in the wall is just measuring surface wetness. It doesn't mean the property is damp. It means the surface of the wall is wet.

If I throw a cup of tea on my wall, not that I intend to, and put the prongs on it, it will come back with a really high reading because the wall is wet, but not because it's damp. um now some of the experts reports um uh now do your own checks on this um absolutely do your own checks but some of the experts who are out there um allegedly she says something like he and his lot but allegedly michael savara is a name you'll see coming up um a lot he is a quantity surveyor he's not a chartered surveyor by any stretch i had a report from him recently where he said He didn't identify any mould, but on a balance of probabilities, there was mould there. I'm like, really?

He says he has a degree in fine art and surveying combined, which I don't accept that at all. Charlene Smith, you might have become aware of, is an Environmental Protection Act expert. She actually works full time for Amazon and only does these EPA inspections.

at the weekends so not continuing with their cbd points benjamin wood has got no qualifications whatsoever jamie patterson isn't qualified as far as i'm aware but do your own checks um david deacon has written articles about maximizing compensation which you see online um dr aaron mariner clark um all i can say there has been less than candid about his qualifications um Keith Gold is a facilities surveyor. So that's why you have to do a bit of background work. Keep, you know, keep your information, share it with other landlords. share all that information around.

So we have to have lots of tools in our armory and as I say some cases are completely bona fide, others they're just on the gravy train and this is where this sort of information helps. Now when you do do your own inspections then you know a photograph is so important, it's so important if you've got photographs that are really good. bolster your case. Take photographs of the closed windows and of the air vents and of washing drying on radiators as well so if someone's got the pants and their socks all dangling wet off the radiators take a picture of it because it's really important that sort of thing is going to create moisture in the air is going to create more growth and obviously you know I will often these days get the oh you're not allowed to blame the tenant so you know it's it's partnership work and you do what you can you'll wash the mold off you'll fit a priv system but if the tenant is continuing to dry their washing on radiators without ventilating then of course there's going to be more issues um i've seen cases with tumble dryers in the lounge that vent internally extractor fans turned off at the spur again take a photograph of it all of those things um do insist on seeing every single room you If you come across a room that's got a lock on it and they say, hey, you can't go in there, that's my son's, chances are you've got a tenancy fraud case on your hand.

I'll wager. I have had a fair few cases that the tenant's claiming compensation for disrepair and they don't live there, so that's a fraudulent claim. And I've had them struck out with another one waiting in the wings. So always keep on the lookout for... subletting that the tenant claiming doesn't actually live there.

Also, of course, safeguarding. That's always something that you should always be looking out for. Now, another thing is ask the tenant if you're going around there about the court case.

You're you're allowed to discuss it. And I have got no end of cases where I've said to the surveyor, just ask see what they say. And they're like, OK, so they go around and they're like, Oh, I've just it's just because you've issued this claim in court. And the tenants like.

issued what claim in court what are you talking about because this is the the solicitors go off on a frolic of their own they issue a claim and don't even bother telling the tenant um so the tenants obviously like i'm not going to court i don't know what you're talking about i just wanted the repairs done and if you are a surveyor or sending your own um surveyors around there are indeed external ones then do take proton with some readings of the surface of the wall but use calcium carbide testing if you can calcium carbide testing is where they take out a tiny little piece of the wall um no no wider than 50 or 5p piece and then test that if there's proper real damp then that calcium car that test that comes out that bit of wall that comes out um will show that there is damp if it comes out bone dry then you're just looking that it's a surface issue so much more likely to be compensation Love Judge Judy. Who doesn't love Judge Judy? I want to be her in the next life.

So in terms of litigation tips, and as I said before, do put the part 35 questions to experts. And it's quite a straightforward thing to do. You pull out the part of the report that you want them to answer, you put it down and then you ask what your question is underneath.

Really, really incredibly useful, those. Part 18 requests, again, the civil procedure rules. Part 18 allows you to ask for clarity on a person's case. And you can do that in respect of statements the solicitors have made by email to do with a letter of claim.

After a claim has been issued, you can again ask for clarity. So, you know, particularly the... The claimant has reported this lots of times, at least two dozen times since 2021. They'd be like, well, how did they report it when all those types of things? You want that information. Now, you also will have had offers to settle, which is always a great one.

We want £4,326.19p. You think, how did they get to that figure? So, again. civil procedure rule 36.8 allows you to ask for clarity of that offer So you write to them and say, well, how did you break that down?

What does that consist of? So you can see what it is they're asking, because sometimes they will sneak into their aspects which they're not entitled to claim for. So that will be the money they paid the claims management company to buy the claim off them.

It will include the cost of the after-the-event insurance. So all these little things they sneak in to ask them how they've broken it down. And one of the other bits that gets me is there has to be a loss to the tenant. They're making an offer to settle and sometimes the tenant solicitors don't get this. There has to be an actual loss to the tenant.

So I've got a case at the moment where there is disrepair. There are works that the landlord needs to complete, but none of them are bothering the tenant. So. There's some works need doing to the eaves on the property. There's a bit of brickwork that needs repointing, but none of it is causing any issues to the inside of the property whatsoever.

You know, and it can't be that, of course, the twits on the other side are saying, well, it's disrepair and we want compensation. It's causing them inconvenience and anxiety. So I said, and I get told off.

for being like this but I can't help myself I said well is your client coming home realizing that the pointing on three bricks on the outside of the building needs doing and it's causing them anxiety and it's upsetting them when it's not causing any problems inside the property so you have to focus on what is the loss what has the tenant lost by way of these repairs not being done um you know often there's no loss to what the actual issues are um you Obviously, always get the works done quickly, as soon as you can. So if it is issued, it will hopefully go into the Small Claims Court. And make early offers if you do, if you're of the view that obviously liability does apply.

Injunctions for access, love them, love injunctions for access. I personally would say to my clients, it's sort of two strikes and you're out. The two strikes and we'll make the application for an injunction.

The solicitors on the other side, they're not covered by the after the event insurance they take out or by their conditional fee agreements, and they rarely, rarely assist in respect of those injunction applications. You'll be dealing with the tenant directly. If you are going into settlement agreements, then be really careful about the wording of the timing of the works. Don't put in the usual, we'll get the works done in 30 days, because chances are you won't for a whole bunch of weeks. reasons you might be able to do that and certain firms like um cel and anthony hadari will issue part eight proceedings to get more compensation and more money in the blink of an eye if those works overrun by one day they will issue a claim if you come across tenant damage then recharge it um if it's an issued claim then then counter claim with it so really really simple process really simple you go along there you see that they've the tenant has damaged the bath they've smashed something into it you're like okay we will be fixing that but we're going to recharge you for it so you quite simply send them an invoice if they don't pay you then can depending on your internal processes just issue a claim and get some online for that financial aspects of it if the tenant solicitors are not responding to you because they've taken on too many cases, make formal complaints about them.

I do it all the time. I just know that some of our friends in Liverpool are just like, oh, God, not her again. But I will make formal complaints to the senior partners and say, I've been chasing a response for X period of time. So this is a formal complaint.

Record keeping, I know Paul touched on this. We'll just go through this quickly. One of the important things is to say why access wasn't gained. If you don't get into a property, it's so much better for you to say, they said I was 10 minutes early, they swore at me, they slammed the door, they looked out the window and said, naff off, I'm still in bed. It's so much more powerful than no access.

Put a flag on your system so everyone knows that it's a disrepair claim. So your income team will know. so they wouldn't necessarily then issue a claim for rent arrears because there might well be a counter-flow. Now, when I worked in-house, because I had a quite long in-house career for housing associations, is one of my bugbears is when, if there was no access after three times, a job would be closed down. Obviously, that's not going to look great on your figures, but if you don't get access after three times, either it's subletting or there's some...

potential safeguarding issue but the work is still there you know that the repair still needs carrying out so you might want to think about um you know injunction applications or some other thing writing to the tenants and obviously you don't want the work done keeping a record of that good record keeping as i say can literally save you thousands and thousands of pounds um oh and that's me i thought i was withering on more but i'm not that's a thing that we have to say So that's me done. So that was a bit of a whiz through. And I mentioned my cat, I think, four times.

And I don't think I swore. Not big sweary anyway. I was losing count of how many times your cat was mentioned. Four times.

We've got a little bit of time. There are a few questions there. um katrina i don't know if you can see them i know oh let me end the slideshow and i will see where those are yeah i think i think one of them uh from from gary is and we do come across this is um you know conversations with the tenant and the tenant says well i didn't want this to go that far yeah what can we do can they can they get out of it and i think we've had situations like that arise Well, what these, you know, you see all these things on Facebook and Twitter and all the rest of it. It's no win, no fee. We'll get you thousands.

What they don't say is if you stop the process halfway through, we're going to send you a whacking great bill. One of my client's housing officers, I had a chat with her because she was in quite some distress. She, out of frustration with disrepair to her home, she...

took up one of these no win, no fee thingies. And she said, you know, they've done the works now, I actually just want to drop it. And the solicitors sent her a bill for £12,500.

So she said, okay, I'll start it up again, because they want to be, you know, sort of recompensed for it. So there's a number of things you can do. You could, if you're talking to the tenant, and they say, well, I just don't want to do this, they will often feel quite harassed by the solicitors. You could assist them with sending them the link to the SRA to make a formal complaint, make a formal complaint to the solicitor's firm, make a complaint to the SRA, that's the solicitor's regulation authority by the way, who most solicitors are quite scared of. So it's those things, always keep a note of it because if the tenant is saying that, the chances of that person coming along to give evidence at trial are really really slim, so that sort of thing on the ground.

statement that the person is actually feeling slightly harassed but help them make a formal complaint to the to the solicitors i think um and then we have another uh question can solicitors again it's a bit like we yes we always have this as well but um can solicitors say you must not undertake any work or repairs without telling them or that they cannot contact the client oh coppers that drives me insane that does absolutely drives me insane you What I always say is contact the tenant, make an arrangement. Sometimes the tenant will say, I'm not talking to you, you have to go through my solicitors, at which point you're a bit scundered. What I would do is say, look, if you want to go around on the 10th, write to the tenant, say you're going around on the 10th. I then say to the solicitors, access is needed on the 10th, so let your client know.

Not, does it suit, can we, all those types of things. I think, you know, going back to the kind of wider policy context of this, you know, as I mentioned earlier, it's very clear that repairs and work should not stop because there's a letter of claim. The protocol is very clear on that as well. So I think we should be going in and doing the work. Yeah, definitely.

Just carry on with it. I have just an email just yesterday of a case that's thundering towards trial. My client has contacted the tenant directly and said we're starting the works at the end of the week. The solicitor said we don't agree the works, so you're not coming in. And I said the polite version of I don't give a stuff whether you agree the works or not.

This is what we want to do. And we're coming in on Friday. Another question here, again, it's something, you know, I know we've looked into recently as a separate issue, but Alex raises the question, the claimant solicitors use paralegals to issue claims, but this is a reserved activity, which it is.

Is there an offence being committed? I would say not, because they're under supervision. Many firms do equally, they should be supervised. I don't know, Katrina's raised questions as to whether occasions. whether they are or not on occasions, but I think I don't see that if there's an offence being committed in that situation.

There's a separate issue in relation to advocacy when it comes to paralegals, but even in that context, permission can be granted by the court. And then Lillian has asked a question, how do you deal with the scenario that you already mentioned, Katrina, where claimant solicitors have advised their client not to allow the landlord to do repairs before an expert's report? even if the landlord already had the workbook to be done. Again, I think you probably touched on that slightly in an earlier question, but I think, you know, it's wrong to tell them not to allow the works, I would say. Yeah, injunction, definitely.

The solicitors will always say, oh, we didn't give that advice. They'll say, we didn't say that. But you've booked the works in due to start next Wednesday.

the tenant says oh my solicitors have told me to not let you in that's a direct refusal to allow access so i would go straight into writing a letter before action to say if you don't let us in on wednesday we're making an application for an injunction don't underestimate the power of an injunction to compel access on the one hand the tenant said we're going to sue you we want costs it might be an environmental protection act matter we want all this but you're not coming in which would be quite compelling when you make the injunction application. And I think equally in the context, again, just touching on the kind of, not disrepair generally, but damper mould, fitness-fueled reputation, you know, the protocol's clear that work shouldn't stop. The guidance from regulator and ombudsman is clear the work shouldn't stop.

We've got members of parliament saying we shouldn't be hiding behind litigation. And there are implied terms, you know, there's a... Section 16 of the Housing Act 1988, the implied term to allow landlord access for works that they're entitled to carry out. There are other implied terms to our access to current inspections under the Landlord and Tenant Act as amended by Fitness for Human Habitation and so on.

So I think in all of those circumstances, we should be, I'd agree with what Katrina has said. I had a great one where a particular firm of solicitors will always say, we didn't tell our tenants and not let you in. It was for a client.

and they went around to inspect and there was a note actually stuck on the door which of course my client took a photograph off that said my solicitors have told said to not let you in conscious we kind of approach it there's another question from louis or it's a question come statement which again unsurprisingly you'll know we've come across it She'd mentioned that they speak to their tenants and advise them of the possible cost and try to ask them to close the case and make a complaint. But solicitors come back and say that we shouldn't be doing that. I would disagree entirely that that isn't the case. I mean, we have.

as it's kind of colloquially referred to as the Bristol approach to dealing with disrepair litigation claims, which, and again, there's a whole focus on trying to this potential twin track and pushing people down a complaints process. We have been successful in telling people that, you know, if you look at the protocol, it's very clear. ADR and alternatives should be considered.

And we've taken the approach you've mentioned. And actually, it's resulted in solicit on your side being quiet. Now, it's an ongoing assessment of where we are with that. um and we are considering you know with our clients i suppose we're sharing um the potential risk but it is working currently um so i would continue to take that approach yeah yeah definitely okay well uh we are on the hour so uh i once again extend huge thanks to everybody for attending today please do complete the the q a you know tell us what you'd like to get covered and in what format.

The world is opening this webinar but we're doing other things, open access training and other training events on particular topics, whether it's specifically discrete topics or not. I mentioned it's being recorded, it will be shared and revisit it, share it with your colleagues, but huge thank you from me and Katrina and hopefully we will see you again very soon on something similar. Thank you indeed. Thanks everyone.

Bye.

Transcript for:Webinar on Disrepair Claims Best Practices

Transcript for:
Webinar on Disrepair Claims Best Practices