Okay. >> Um, so I just want to clarify in terms of date, July 18th, 2025. My full name, Leel Volding. And Riley, you want to state your name and any >> My name is William. Oh, I'm sorry. >> No, go ahead. >> Go ahead. I didn't mean to interrupt. Uh, my name is William Sasha Riley. I was born Manuel Sasha Barlos. >> Okay. But my legal name is William Sasha Riley at this time. >> Okay. And I'm just so we're clear, I'm based in Victoria, British Columbia, Canada. I lived in the United States full-time for a bunch of years, but I was brought up in Canada. My citizenship's Canadian >> and >> we might be neighbors at some point because Canada is right now number two on the list of the countries that I am potentially going to move to. >> You know, I think it's a good place to look. There's a lot of there's a lot of Americans actually I've spoken to Americans that I've said is I've told to to come here and there's lots of Americans that have come to visit more and it's a lot more embracing inclusive of a culture. So, you know, it's quite lovely. I recommend in terms of what my approach really what I wanted to do is like to just really like a thorough discussion. you tell me everything that that you've been wanting to say and I I'll ask some questions. This might be one of like however many however many discussions and I'll record them if it's one, if it's 10. >> And what I'd like to do I'm I'm sort of recording with an eye to a your testimony getting your testimony of what you you experienced, what abuse you suffered, and what you were witnessed to. and and I in terms of being able to to get into a format in terms of an affidavit whether we look at getting help from the international criminal court cuz obviously what you know you and I have discussed already there's definitely a whole whack of crimes that that have been getting committed by a lot of folks and um is even a case where there could be crimes against humanity charges in regards to Trump. So, and what else I'd like to do is is I'd like to look at whether whether you would be okay with, you know, me like transcribing and then publishing something. I publish newsletters selectively. I have a newsletter called Outlaws of Chivalry. I p publish once in a while and I was looking at perhaps publishing there if you're okay in terms of how could help us in terms of um getting the right legal support in terms of the international war court. I am I am for whatever puts a light on this because in my mind the powers that be have are already uh aware of my position on it and aware that I have spoken up and >> you know the more light that is shed on there I don't think that I'm incurring more risk except for some maybe lunatic that wants to uh be a soul soldier for Donald Trump because they are a little a little crazy. They're a little brainwashed. But >> yeah, >> um yeah, I I I don't mind whatever would bring a little bit more light to this, particularly this the stuff uh if if we can get some of this stuff verified, you know, and I know that me speaking up is one thing, but then uh the verification process >> Yeah. >> Uh you know, is important, too. And I have read about software where you know facial recognition software that that taps into the uh banks of of known uh cataloged child pornography. So if that the the films that they had me make can be verified, uh you know, it's not something that I can go online, but I am confident that it's there because somebody that I served within the army got put out of the army for child pornography in my chain of command talked to me and they said, "Hey, you know, some of these images, some of the films or whatever that he had looked just like you." And that was the first time I think I had ever talked to anybody about having done those films. And I told him, "Yes, when I was a child, I had to do those things." >> Yeah. >> So I >> Let's talk a little bit more about that circumstance. Like so you were in the army. What years were you in the army then? >> Um this would have been my second time in the army. I rejoined in uh let's see 2002 and I retired in 2016. I was in uh from 91 to 98 as well. So I did a little over 21 years but the time frame that uh they pulled me into the office and discussed that would have been around uh 2008 2009 time frame. >> It was obviously it was in garrison so it was between deployments. >> Yeah. >> So around that time is when they talked to me and yeah I can just remember uh I can remember telling them that that I knew it was out there. there was nothing I could do about it. And thinking that there was really no way to go about, you know, anything at that point, you know, I I didn't know what I could do about it, if anything. >> Yeah. So, it was from when our our emails the um it was one of the fellow soldiers that was caught with a bunch of child pornography and then your commanding officer pulled you into the office to go through and said they see you in the films. >> I did not look at any of the films. All they said was, >> "Hey, we had to look at some of this stuff." >> And one of those people looks just like you. And that's the first time that I had, I think, ever really spoken about it. And I said, "Yes, you know, those are probably me." But I did not personally see them. Um, but they described uh something that I knew that I had been a part of. >> Yeah. Can you talk about that a little bit? >> Here's what it was. >> Yeah. Uh they when when I they pulled me in, I can remember first Art Bis was kind of redfaced and he said, "Have you ever made a movie with a black girl?" And I and you know that obviously was I mean I'm not a movie star so obviously that's a very odd question and I knew exactly what he was talking about when he said that. >> So I said yes. So he said, "Okay, well, we have found some images that are of a sexually explicit nature on another soldier's uh computer, I think. Um, and they look like you." And I said, "Well, they are me." So he said, "And you look underage." I think from that uh was part of their investigation to confirm that the images of the uh the participants in these films were underage. >> So, you know, that was just a a secondary verification that uh yeah, I was only 12 or 13 at the time of that film, maybe maybe even 11. So, I mean, obviously, I'm not an adult. And even when I was an adult at 18 or 19, I still looked young. So obviously at uh 11, 12, whatever I was in that film, I would not have looked like a a mature uh an adult, you know. >> Mhm. >> So it was more, I think, for confirmation that these images were of children. So, uh I don't remember if he actually got court marshaled or if he just got uh UCMJ, which is just their lower grade of uh punishment, but I do know that he was chaptered out of the military. I think he might have >> had to do a little jail time, but I don't I don't recall. I can't even recall the soldier's name that got caught with it. I just knew he was a an NCO, a staff sergeant. And was there any did anyone else ever talk to you about the the films again? Did they ever talk did they ever infer that there was any further investigation in terms to when the films were produced? Did they ask you anything about who is involved or did they >> No. >> No. >> Uh they they didn't they didn't go into any legality other than uh the prosecution of the soldier with the images. So in the military is a little bit different than than civilian uh you know I don't want to call it the court system because it's just the the the officers and NCOs's in the military but they they have their you know sphere of influence they have their little scope of operation and and if they uncover more I think that they're in uh required to give it to the civilian authorities but they don't have any jurisdiction to go further than to just prosecute the soldier for the infraction that he is guilty of. If that makes sense the way I'm saying it. >> No, I understand. Do they have any duty or any is there any legality or do they have legal requirements to in to inform civilian prosecutors >> of such cases? >> Yes. if if they suspect or I I if there's additional wrongdoing that is outside of their scope of of of being able to prosecute in in this case to to hold the individual soldier accountable for having this material that he's not supposed to have. >> Yeah. >> Uh they prosecute that portion of it. If it is beyond what they can prosecute, then they refer the soldier to civilian court systems. Um, but in this case, the military did uh handle the uh uh the prosecution of the soldier and I I think all he got was like 30 days uh and and reduction in rank to E1. They kicked him out of the army, gave him a less than honorable discharge. I think I don't think he even got a bad conduct for that. But, uh, it, >> you know, I know that he was put out of the military and I think he did the 30 days in jail, I think, is the most that they can give you at the uh um at that at the level that they that they prosecuted him at. So, um I don't I'm I'm not saying that they uh you know for sure on the on the jail time, but I do know for a fact he was he was put out of the military. >> Okay. So, they they they had films. They had some of those films. >> His name >> Cable. >> Yes. Hable. That was his last name. H A B E L I think. Staff Sergeant Hel. I just remembered it because I could picture his face and I just couldn't remember his name. >> Hable. Okay. H A B E L. >> Yes, I'm relatively certain on that name. I I don't have the best memory. I was in a blast in Iraq and one of the things that I struggle with mightily are names. >> Yeah. >> But I am I'm fairly sure that's his name. >> Okay. Okay. And in terms of the films they had, so so there there was obviously a collection of pornography. any is there anyone you're in contact with of those your commanding officers that would they talk to you? Would they provide evidence or is it a situation? >> Michael Michael Bis is the only one that I remember speaking to about it. I have not spoken to him since I left Fort Carson in 2011. Um, I would think that he would probably remember something like that just just the unusualness of it. You know, first sergeants deal with things day in and day out, but I would I would think that he would remember that just because of how it's not every day that you have to deal with something like that, you know. Um, >> yeah, >> but it it is possible. Uh, I think my commanding officer's name at that time was Captain Kasanto, but I'm not sure because you get commanding officers come and go. You know, the first >> uh they they tend to stick around longer, >> but commanding officers are a lot of times they're only there for a year or two and then they're off to the next thing. So, >> okay. >> Uh, my recollection of the commanding officer may not be accurate. What's the the spelling of his last name? Kasanto. >> Uh, Cola. C O L A S A N T O. >> Okay. St. Cola. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Is there anything else you think would be helpful to to talk about right now about then the time frame? That was the first time anyone had ever mentioned to you anything about the films other than when you were involved in filming. Is that accurate? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yes. The the first time that I can recall anybody that it ever coming up, I always knew that they were um you know that the films at at least one or two of them were out there. I don't even know how many times I was filmed. Um, but I can tell you that that some of them are are extraordinarily horrible. I can give you one instance where they were filming us. It was me and a girl that I knew uh that I had been trafficked with uh in other venues and while we were filming uh they came in and shot her in the head. So, killed her obviously. So that would be >> Was that the runaway? >> That was another girl that I can't even remember her name. >> Yeah. The the runaway was tortured to death in a duplex in uh Enterprise, Alabama. My parents did that and we had that wasn't on film. uh that not her her being tortured, but uh that was uh that was that black girl that I'm telling you about that that later on uh Michael Bis had talked to me about, but they went and got her because they were afraid that that this was after the investigation in Tennessee and they were afraid that that they would go down for child pornography. So, they were >> wanting to kill her and then they were wanting to get rid of me via an accident, but >> they couldn't because >> they had already tried to kill me several times. They had the incident in Texas involving a Chevy van. There was another inc instance in Texas where my dad threw me into the middle of a pool and said sink or swim and somebody saw it and called the sheriff. So, there was a police report on that. And then there was a third instance in Texas where they uh my dad threw me down a flight of stairs and that one fractured my skull. Now there may have been other things that happened as well, but I remember those three were uh uh enough that they generated an investigation. Um, there were enough things that happened in Texas that, uh, my dad moved from Texas to Tennessee and then got in trouble in Tennessee and then moved then got in trouble in Tennessee and then moved to Alabama, got in trouble in Alabama and then we just moved one more time. >> And you're talking about your Alabama, >> your adoptive dad, William Kyle Riley, correct? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> I don't I have um I have located my birth parents. My birth mother lives in Sierra Vista and my birth father lives in Edmund, Oklahoma. But I have as yet I have not reached out to either of them. >> Um I just within the last year probably six months I learned where they live. >> So uh that I don't know that's just an odd dynamic for me and I'm still kind of processing that. Uh but as far as family goes, I have a halfsister up in uh uh Massachusetts and that's about it. >> Okay. And your adopted dad, William Kyle Riley, worked as a pilot and was involved >> Yes. >> into all kinds of things. >> Yeah. And worked a lot with Trump and Epstein. Correct. He I I know that he was around Epstein and worked with Epstein and I want to say that he flew for Epstein and if not for Epstein directly um like transporting Epstein himself, he did transport some of the rich people to and from uh these parties that Epstein and company hosted. It's it wasn't just him. It was kind of a cabal of several people and Epstein was the I guess the lead coordinator maybe you would call it >> but it it's much more than just him as an individual you know it was people like him like Trump uh other people >> um and I can't remember you know like how many but he was he he was handy to have around because he was a part of the process and he isn't just a uh like an airline pilot or something like that. He he can fly anything. He can fly helicopters, fixed wing, uh smaller aircraft, larger aircraft. I mean, he's he's a you know, he's that pilot that kind of that multi-purpose guy that could transport whatever you needed. >> Okay. So, >> and I don't >> Yeah, >> I don't know if he ever got into the drugs. I can remember him talking at one point and he had refused to do a drug run basically and somebody else took that drug run and they got busted. >> Yeah. >> So I don't I don't know what kind of aircraft it was or whatever and it was around Florida that that guy got busted at. Maybe you flew down uh to the Virgin Islands or something like that. I I can't remember these specific details, but I can remember the conversation that my dad had talking about, thank God I didn't take that and because the guy got busted and he wound up, you know, huge amount of charges, 25 to life or whatever the heck he got. But I can remember from his perspective being nervous because the people that he was working with, he was scared that they were going to set him up to take the fall for something to just get rid of him because he had been involved in so much other criminality that he was really nervous about taking on anything else. I I know that's kind of word salad the way that I said it, but I think you kind of understand what I'm saying. >> I do. No, I understand. I understand perfectly. So your dad would obviously, you know, my understanding is your your dad was the kind of pilot that those sort of criminals would want to use cuz they could use him to fly any anything in any situation to airlift Trump out like you said when you almost killed Trump when Trump was assaulting you >> or the pilot in that one. >> He wasn't a pilot in that case. >> Kind of pilot. Absolutely. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. No, no, that's okay. So, yeah, I've got, you know, I've spoken to folks that, you know, they look for those sorts of pilots. They want pilots that can get guests of traffickers into situations, in and out discreetly, trafficking victims in and out of situations discreetly, and victims that they killed out of situations discreetly, all sorts of nonsense. So, seems like >> and and that's what that's what he did. He he shuttled the people. But I can remember him not wanting to to cross the bridge over to running drugs. >> Yeah. >> You know, because in his mind, if he got caught with some people, he could just play dumb. And I was just transporting this guy's kid to, you know, from the, you know, here to there. I I didn't know anything. >> So, >> So, did your dad I I Go ahead. >> I was Did your dad move transport the victims? >> Most often? >> Oh, absolutely. >> So, >> more victims than guests. >> I don't want to call them both. >> I would say more guests than than victims. Uh, but he definitely transported both. >> Okay. Okay. And that was either directly for Epstein like transport wasn't transporting Epstein so much as Epstein's victims and Epstein's gas >> and the clients. >> Okay. The clients >> but he was definitely around Epstein. I can I can remember the one time that I can remember meeting both of them >> and I I can't even remember Jeffrey hardly at all, but I can remember the conversation in the car where they they kept asking how to say uh Gain's name because it was unusual and uh during that meeting uh my mom wanted to get the name right, you know, for whatever that was important to her, you know. >> Yeah. And what's your mom's name again? >> Uh her name was Mary Lynn Riley. This would be kind of my third mom because my >> my dad adopted me with a uh a lady ma named uh Irene Ursula Lithky was her maiden name. Her name is Pier now. >> Um but those two adopted me. He got divorced from Irene inh 79 or 80 and almost immediately married Lynn. So, uh, Irene may have been involved in some of that, but that would be from a time frame that I don't have clear recollection of. I do have clear recollection of Mary Lynn Riley's involvement, uh, but she died via suicide a number of years ago. >> Uh, okay. Now, um, what are you most comfortable to talk about next? I mean, well, let me ask some more questions in terms of the >> Now, you you told me about Trump and about Bigs and about Jordan. I feel like that's important to discuss in details. And let me ask you a question. Do you think it's more helpful for you to talk about what you remember first when you were first trafficked, the circumstances, individuals involved, or do you want to talk about some of the incidents that that we spoke about a bit by email already? >> What's what do you think is helpful for you? >> Fill in whatever gaps in in that that I can. Um, I have spoken to you about most of what I remember clearly, but I can I can give you some of the details with those three and that's why that's why I I am willing to talk about them. You know, there's no um I I remember more things, but I just can't I can't I can't give you much in the way of detail for anybody other than those three. I can remember Jim Jordan. I went to a party. This was at a farm. There were uh I don't know 25 to 50 people there. I mean, it was it was a good amount of people, but not a a massive crowd by any stretch. But what my the experience that my dad sold to those people was if you could pin me, then you could do whatever you wanted. But my dad had taught me how to fight. He had been a like a bare knuckle brawler earlier in his uh life and uh I know that he had worked kind of just beating people up for you know a little extra money at one point in his life. Uh he he also entered into like the tough man contest stuff like that. So it it was kind of a game for them because I was just a child. So, you would think that you could just uh, you know, do whatever you wanted, but if they got anywhere near me, I would hit them. And by the time that Jim Jordan assaulted me, I was old enough that those adults, not being most of them, not being athletic in any way. You know, these are these are people that, you know, they're not fighters by any stretch. >> Uh, they they couldn't get anywhere near me. And Jim Jordan just sort of rushed me and tackled me. and I might have known how to fight, but I didn't know how to wrestle. So, he assaulted me in front of a crowd. And I I think that it was filmed, but I can't swear that it was filmed, but it was in front of those 25 or 50 people. Um, >> and how old were you? >> That's why I remembered I was around 12. >> 12 >> when that happened. >> And of those 25, 50 people, oh, sorry. Go ahead. The reason that I remember Jim Jordan is first he stood out because he wasn't that much. He's he's only like seven or eight years older than me. So at the time frame that I'm I'm at 12. He is right around just graduating high school, maybe maybe first year or two of college, right? So him being so much younger stood out. And then I remembered his jawline. He has a very uh very pronounced jawline. I remembered his voice and he his mannerisms haven't changed throughout his life either. So when I really started uh as soon as Trump went down that escalator and said he was running for president, I I I got involved in politics, you know, I started I started watching it. Uh I started watching who supported him and everything like that. And I remember Jim Jordan just from watching him on the uh uh floor of Congress, you know, speaking to the different people that, you know, go go up there and testify. So, uh and that's him, you know, I I just remembered him. So >> yeah, >> that's I know that's not a lot, but I you give me a polygraph, I'm going to take it because I'm 100% sure that that it was him. >> And Andy Biggs, I remember because on the way to this, they took me to a a house. This wasn't at a party. This was later after I had assaulted Trump. And it was kind of a punishment type of thing where he was going to get to assault me and I guess not pay my parents and he got to do whatever he wanted. And I can remember telling me they I wasn't allowed to fight back or they'd kill me and you know all of this. But they they must have said his name 50 times in the car. So Bigs kept I kept hearing Bigs, Andy Biggs, Biggs. And I I thought I'm going to remember this man. And after he assaulted me, I don't even remember the the assault necessarily, but I remember being in the car afterwards and being like really nauseous, sick to my stomach. I was seeing spots and I mean uh the guy beat me until I I had broken ribs and and was convulsing, turning blue and stuff like that. And I can the only part of that assault that I can remember is laying on the uh floor of of the room trying to breathe. And I could I could hear Andy and my dad screaming back and forth at each other. And I can remember Andy Biggs saying, "You said I could do whatever I wanted." And my dad saying, "I didn't say you could [ __ ] kill him." And you know, I think they may have actually thrown blows over it, but there was a heated argument and everything going on for for an extended period of time. And then I can remember being in the car leaving and just having my eyes closed because my head was spinning and everything and I was just trying to breathe just in and out, you know? >> So that's why I remember him so clearly. Uh, I have had more than one encounter with Trump and that's why I tried to kill that son of a [ __ ] because he is a [ __ ] monster. It's why I have not shut up about just how absolutely abhorentt he is as a human being. And it's why I tried to That's why I tried to kill him. >> Yeah. >> Because I had decided I had already seen enough other people die that in my mind I thought uh well, they're just going to kill me too at some point, right? uh you know, I'm not going to survive to be an adult from this. So, in my mind, he was the biggest pile of [ __ ] that I had ever had to have any contact with. So, I was going to take him with me. And >> how often did Trump assault you? I can remember >> I can remember two specifically a third one that I think and I think I was around him more than those just those three times but only three times do do I kind of remember I can remember at one point him asking uh the people that were kind of running that party or or whatever it was at that farm um he wanted to kill somebody he wanted to maybe he wanted to murder somebody and they said, "Hey, that's not this kind of party. You can't do that." And uh they in in lie of doing that, they said, "Well, we've got some some puppies if you just want to kill something, but we've got to get rid of them anyway." So, I can remember him taking those puppies one by one. And like he snapped one of the puppies necks, he cut one open and let it just howl and and and you know, rise in pain while they died. held one under some water to kill it. He just he he wanted to hurt kill those puppies in in you know whatever gruesome way you know to to experience I guess seeing them suffer in different ways. What his kink is I guess if you want to call it that is watching people suffer. He likes to destroy people physically, mentally during the process of the assault. That's why he stands out so much in my memory, you know, and it's it's it's physical pain and then it's it's also, you know, degrading and and and all of that. But his thing was to just try to destroy human beings to the to the utmost that he could possibly do it, which is why I attacked him. >> Yeah, that's understandable. So, um >> I can tell you this, the the last one and and Okay, so this was after they had killed the uh Samantha. was the black girl that I made the the the one of the movies with. >> Yeah. >> Um >> and these were Let me just ask a question just to clarify. >> So when Samantha was killed, these were were all of these parties at the farm or similar locations to the farm >> where there was >> um it was multiple farms. >> Multiple farms. >> And usually it was parties. So there was individuals like Trump that were flown in to the parties >> and they would have like a building, you know, a house uh and they would usually have like a tent set up and uh you know it was almost like a little I don't want to say a fair. It wasn't that big. They didn't have rides or anything, but there was it was a kind of a coordinated deal, you know. Um, sometimes they would have the uh the bare knuckle fighting. That's that probably is how my my dad got involved with these people because uh you know, you've got boxing and stuff like that on TV, but that's really all you had back in the 70s and 80s. The the you know, the more the MMA type of stuff wasn't allowed. And these fights were a little more gruesome. They didn't they didn't fight to the death or anything like that, but they were they were bloody. And you know, I mean, these were these were fights, you know, and not just boxing. And so the the uh rich people would pay to see that. Sometimes they'd have like a, you know, a band playing uh you know, just like what you would expect at like a fair or something, you know. >> So the rich folks would get flown in associated with Epstein and they would pay to watch the victims fight. The v victims were all underage. And would they pay to then assault the victims after the fights or during the fights? >> And they'd pay to torture the victims >> and rape the victims >> and kill the victims. >> Uh but now now some of the fights were adults, >> you know, so you know, if they had some big old country boy and some other guy, they they would pay to see that. They would also pay to watch the kids fight. And they did pay to watch me fight. I would fight other kids. And my dad was was my initial trainer uh for me to learn how to fight. I would later uh go on to be a a boxer, an amateur boxer, but that's how I got my start in all of that. So, yes, they would have paid for that. Um and the experiences were different uh each time. There wasn't like a set thing. You never really knew what was going to happen. So, um, you know, part of it, a lot of it just comes down to money, you know. So, if they offered, uh, $5,000 to have sex with me, then then, you know, my dad was willing to do that, you know, whatever the dollar amounts were. I don't I don't know. >> Sasha, that isn't that isn't sex. That that's that's sexual assault, >> right? I mean, I I just want to say something first. >> I think, okay, >> you're extremely brave. You behave extremely strong like a warrior. And I just want to stop and say it's important to me to say that because a lot of folks you know wouldn't even survive such trauma but you've you've survived and you you know you conduct yourself with with dignity and and and gracefully and and I is important to me to say that. I I hope you know that, you know, I hope you have a sense of your your own honor and chivalousness, especially what you told me in terms of drugs they used on you and how they lured you drug to to to behave monstrous towards other kids. You know, I understand >> I can remember I'm sorry I didn't mean to interrupt, but I can remember uh some law some arm of law enforcement showing me video of me harming one of the people that they were filming me with. Now, I don't know how that came about. Um whether they they drugged me and I lost my mind or they told me to do it. I don't I don't know the circumstances, but I can remember being in that room and them saying, "Well, you did this." And and it may have not even been law enforcement. It may have been, you know, like the people that were running that, but I can remember being really upset because I had no recollection of having done that. It was me in the video and I was beating somebody, well, a girl senseless. And uh I didn't kill her or anything like that, but I you know >> Yeah. >> So, and I have a feeling, you know, this this part I can't prove because I I you know, I I have I only have my own experiences. But what the whole thing seems to be is that they first abuse you, then they get you on film abusing others, and now they have you trapped as well. >> Yeah. So, you can't talk about the abuse that they did to you. If they want you to be a legacy victim, somebody that they can use in the future, well, then they've got to get you on tape doing monstrous things to other people as well because now they have the leverage to keep your mouth shut. >> Yeah. No, and you know what? You're exactly right. That's exactly the tactic. And it's it's in the tactic is insidious because um have have you ever heard of the the the torture technique a lot of um occult practitioners use? It's called uh inversion inversion torture. Inversion magic isn't magic. Sorcery is just smok and mirrors, nonsense, deception techniques, but it's sort of inversion technique where to try to linguistically manipulate the victims to try to get the victims in a position where the victims doubt whether the victims, >> you know, good or not. That's absolutely >> And I think that's the case with a lot of the Republicans you mentioned. Like you said, Clarence Thomas and Lindsey Graham were at these parties. You can't remember if Lindsey Graeme and Clarence Thomas participated >> and it's sort of a question of did they participate? Were they blackmailed because they were there attended the parties but they didn't participate? >> Can you tell me much more about Clarence Thomas and Lindsey Graham? >> I know the least about him. The only reason that I can remember him is because he was a black man and the I'm I'm sorry but that that that club is is pretty much just white folks. So having a black person there uh was very unusual. So he stood out. But the only thing that I can really say is that I remembered him being there and then I remember what a big deal it was in our household when he got confirmed onto the Supreme Court. >> Yeah. >> Uh because my dad was excited about that because of how high up he was. Now, I don't I can't swear. I may have been assaulted by Clarence Thomas, but I cannot swear to that. >> If he did assault me, then it was not to the level of something that >> scared me to the point where I needed to remember it, if that's a good way to put that, which rose to that, and Andy Biggs rose to that. And Jim Jordan rose to that because he was dangerous to me because I could keep most people away from me with my fists. But, you know, he he was a good wrestler. So, you know, he scared me in that sense that this is a person that I can't, you know, that I can't keep away from me with my with my fist. Um, Lindsey Graham, I am fairly sure he has assaulted me, but I just can't put my hand on a Bible and swear to that. >> Yeah. >> You know, I know that he was there. I can remember it. He he just like uh Jim Jordan, he has uh very distinct mannerisms and his voice is a little unusual as well. So, I could remember his voice, I could remember his mannerisms and then obviously how he looks. Um, so I can put him there, but I just can't I can't say he did this or he did that. Exactly. I just can't. >> Okay. So, >> I wish that I could provide more information on that because I I I think some things went on, but that's just not enough for me to point uh a finger and make an accusation. But he was there. I can tell you that. >> Yeah. Well, that's that's that's enough. And I know that you know some sorts of interviews there's we can look at at a different time to see if there is any more information you remember. But what you do remember I I just want you to know what you remember to know that what what you remember is extremely important and is extremely helpful. I know you want to be able to remember more and the memories are in there and you know I I just want to approach the situation delicately because >> you know >> some of the other memories are are are just vague. you know, I can and and and I I have been very careful too not to to to to reach out further because there are some other names that I could I could mention that I believe were there that I know for a fact that that my parents talked about, but I don't have a clear enough recollection of anything. Like I can tell you 100% sure that they talked about Vladimir Putin, but I do not believe he was ever at one of those parties that I was at, but his name was brought up more than once >> during the 1980s. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Vladimir Putin. I don't I don't know even when he ascended to the presidency, but I remember the name because it was so unusual. Now, at that point, he may have just been, you know, one of the Russian oligarchs or whatever, but his name came up and and I remember just because it's an unusual name, Vladimir Putin, you know. Um, but I don't believe he was ever there. So, that is like I don't know. It's there are other names like that, too. >> Okay. Let's talk a little bit about >> I remember Clinton's name being brought up, but I don't ever remember seeing it. So Clinton was mentioned, but you never saw Clinton. >> I not that I can recall. And and that's another thing, too. I may have had interactions with additional people, but some during some of them, I was so drugged out of my mind. I I don't really remember what happened, you know. >> Yeah. When when you heard them talk about Putin, so it was at one of the parties of one of the farms. Do you remember what they were saying about Putin? >> Just that he was some sort of like uh foreigner that was very important. I I you know I didn't know any more you know the the name was just unusual and they they mentioned his name you know they they kind of uh had fun saying his name you know Vladimir, you know does he like to go by Vlad or this or that. But the the meeting with that person I don't think ever materialized. I think it was just something that was discussed and never happened. Now, if he has other connections, you know, and he he very well may uh that's possible, but I can just remember there were at those parties there were people that had strange accents. >> Um, but that's that's it. That's that's all I could say. I couldn't point and say, "Well, this person was from Spain or this person was from Portugal." I I have no idea, but what I do know for a fact is not every person at those parties was American. >> Yeah, >> I know that's not a lot, but I again I I I only remember what I >> I have a question >> with with Trump, I mean with Putin, did you get the sense that the party attendees that the clients were interested in Putin? There was something they wanted from Putin. They thought they could get money from Putin, influence from Putin. Did you have any sense of that? >> The only sense that I had was that this was for uh the rich people regardless of where they were from. >> So, at this point in my child brain, I knew that there were rich people and those people got to do whatever they wanted. And then there were poor people like me and those people, you know, that was the dynamic. So, you know, that's that's that's it. I I never heard them say anything about blackmailing and stuff like that, but I can remember them showing me a video of me doing bad stuff. And then I can remember people telling me that if I ever talked about it, what I had done was illegal, too. I uh and and a lot of that was just [ __ ] because I was just a kid and they were making me do this stuff. >> Yeah. >> But >> talk about malevolent hypocrisy, dude. They were just utterly grotesque. >> They they were trafficking you. They were assaulting you. They were drugging you. And then they were trying to >> to to they they were trying to make me feel torture you. Exactly. Exactly. when they you were in this situation because they were trafficking you. >> The the last encounter with Trump, the one where I injured him was the one that I remember the most vividly. And this was the setup for that. I can remember my dad before we went to the farm. This was when we lived in Enterprise, Alabama. >> Yeah. >> So, it would have been about 81 to 82, somewhere in there. maybe as maybe as late as 83, but he said there may be somebody that you know there and and I can remember the look on his face and it scared the [ __ ] out of me. >> But anyway, when I got to the farm, of course, I'm scared at the farm because I don't know what's going to happen. But the first person that comes up to me is a girl named Patricia. This is a girl that I had been trafficked with before. and she came running up to me and, you know, said said hello or whatever. Uh, she was about my same age, around 12 or 13. And I can remember my dad saying, "Well, why don't you guys go run off and and or whatever and and have fun." And I I can I can remember not knowing what to do in that instance because, you know, these parties weren't for me. I wasn't. And then then then he said something to the effect of, "No, it's not like that for you anymore. You're a man now. You can just go out and have fun." Well, we went to go have sex. So, uh, we went and found a room and started having sex. And while we were having sex, people burst into the room. It would have been four, five, six guys, big guys, adults. Uh, at least one of them had a gun. I think I think two or three of them had guns, but they came in, they assaulted her, they beat on her, and then they shot her while she was still in the bed. They didn't beat or assault me, but what they said was, "If you don't do everything that the next person coming in here wants, we're going to shoot you just like we did her." And I can remember them having like an argument because they shot her in the bed and then they had to go find another mattress. Well, that's when Trump came in. So that's why I remember him so vividly. And it was at that point I had already decided they're probably just going to kill me anyway. I'm going to take him with me. And I tried but I did not. How did how did you So obviously Trump was extremely violent. Trump's um Yes. >> a sadistic psychopath when Trump assaulted you. So sexual assault and physical assault. >> Yes. So >> at one point, well, I kind of acquiesced to whatever sexual things that he wanted to do, but at some point uh he wanted me to have sex with him. So he laid down on his stomach and there was a uh wooden tent steak that was in the room and I had been eyeballing it as a weapon. And what I did was put the condom on the wooden thin steak, put it inside of him, and I kicked it as hard as I could. And that's why he had to get lifellighted out because I ripped him open. >> I'm sorry. Do you ever watch the movie The Equalizer? >> No, I haven't seen it. Denzel Washington, you know, sort of like justice when everyone in involved in American law enforcement can't get any justice. Um, that would be a sort of situation obviously. >> Um, I laughed because there's poetic justice there, >> Sasha. that that that was what facilitated they not only did I get really assaulted by uh Andy Biggs, I also got assaulted by like an entire party's worth of people. They took >> after Trump was airlifted out. >> He had a whole another party. So they took me to another party after that. And because I had done that to one of those rich people, um I they took me from like station to station and they could do whatever they wanted. Most of them just beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat beat on me. I can remember me standing there had already gotten beaten up you know I don't know five six times and I can remember somebody urinated on me and I said thank you for not hurting me and he just hauled off and punched me in the side of the head and knocked me out. Um, >> I can remember leaving that party and my dad was just kind of dragging me out of there. It was another instance just like with Andy Biggs where I got beaten to the point where, you know, I was I was the room was spinning. I was nauseous, probably throwing up. Um, maybe some broken bones uh badly. >> And how many perpetrators did you say again? 20 to 40 25 to 40 perpetrators >> people that were there. Yes. I would say probably eight or 10 that just beat the absolute hell out of me. And some of them probably sexually assaulted me, but I can't remember. I can remember getting hurt, you know, just getting beaten up and uh you know, >> was that before you tried to defend yourself from Trump or after? Do you remember? That was after that was as a punishment, if you want to call it that. The what happened at that party was part of the punishment. And then I can remember them saying that this is the last of it when I had to go see Andy Biggs. But Andy Biggs almost [ __ ] killed me. So I remember him to this day. I just >> So when Andy Biggs almost killed you was after Trump as well? >> Yes. Uh after Andy Biggs was after Trump, the party that a whole bunch of people assaulted me was after that. And then the last one was Andy Biggs. And then I can remember my dad saying no more. Uh I can remember him even kind of breaking down a little bit like psychologically because of just I guess the repeated watching me just get destroyed by people. You got to understand it's not like boooos and band-aids. They were breaking ribs and uh really hurting me. You know, I've got like a deformed rib cage to this day. >> No. Sounds like they were trying to torch you just to the point of death to to punish you and to send a message. >> They tried over and over again to hint to me to get me to kill myself. >> And I can remember thinking there's no way I'm going to kill myself because that's what they want. So just I I survived some of that just out of spite to be honest with you. Uh there's there's really no other way to put it, but I wasn't going to I just I can remember hating my mom so much that there I just did not want to give her the satisfaction. >> Yeah. >> She as bad as my dad was, Marilyn Riley was even more evil. >> She her thing was sexually torturing me. So, and and she enjoyed sexually torturing Samantha when they went and got her. >> And Samantha was the runaway that >> Ry she was >> she lived in a uh a brothel basically a house where they had uh four or five underage girls that had they had scooped up from wherever they got them from. and uh they would use those girls at these parties. Well, at one time they sent me to go be a part of that raffle. So, that's when I made friends with Samantha, Patricia, and Sarah. And those are the only three that I can remember their names, but Sarah um committed suicide. Samantha was tortured to death. And Patricia was the girl that got shot in the bed before Trump came in. >> Did Patricia die? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> Yes. So Samantha, Patricia, and Sarah, and all three died. >> Yes. Yes. >> So Samantha was the runaway that was murdered by your adopted parents. >> Yes. >> Patricia committed suicide. Sarah committed suicide. And Patricia was murdered in the bed before Trump came in. And then they threatened >> Yes. on >> you and said to let Trump do whatever Trump wanted to do to you or they would shoot you in the head as well. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Okay. And I can remember I can remember them pointing the gun at me and saying, "We're going to kill you." And my dad protesting because he said, "If you shoot him, we're all going to go to jail." and he was he was really I can remember him be being distraught. Now he was he's a kind of a tough guy and you know all of that sort of stuff. So that's what stood out to me was he was really scared because he knew that if they just shot me that's not something he could explain to anybody and he had gotten into so much trouble with trying to get rid of me already. with uh there's the the Chevy van incident, there's the pool incident, and then there's the uh uh stairs incident, and all of those generated a a police report. In addition to that, we went down to Panama City, Florida to the beach, either Panama City or Dest. And they took me to a rip tide area. Uh I didn't know it was a riptide area. There were no other people on the beach, you know, it was just us. But within like a 100 yards, 150 yards, there's the regular beach where people were at. Uh you know how they have the the riptide zones? They don't want you out there, right? For obvious reasons. Well, they took me to one of these zones and had me, you know, say, "Hey, you know, come out here and play in the water and this and that." And for the first few minutes, it was just the three of us playing in the water and I'm just a kid. You know, beach is awesome. So, uh at any rate, they go back in. I'm out there playing. Eventually that that current gets me and I don't know how to swim at this point in my life. So it pulls me out 100 ft maybe and I'm bouncing up and down off the sandbar just screaming my head off. Well, somebody that was on the regular beach, not in the Riptide area, heard the screaming and came running from like 150 yards away and right by my parents who were standing there and he goes out there and gets me, fishes me out. by the time he comes back, he's nearly exhausted. And I can remember him and my dad nearly fighting. And at this point, there there are other people that are coming. And you know, that scares the [ __ ] out of my dad. But there was another police report with that. And I know that that police report followed us back up into Alabama because the sheriff came down there and talked to him uh talked to my dad in Alabama. So there was another investigation for sure. So, all of those things had already happened and my dad was terrified that if something happened to me, especially so close to all of these other things that that all of these other investigations, he pretty much knew he was going to go to jail over it. >> So, there was at least the the the Chevy van incident, pool incident, stairs incident, there was police into police reports. How many police were reports? About three or four. that I can I I that that are just involved in trying to get rid of me and then there were in addition to those four. There were the two investigations, one for the porn and then when we lived in the duplex and they were torturing that girl to death, Samantha, um our duplex neighbors there in Enterprise, Alabama, they called the police because they could hear uh you know, screams and and uh you know, beatings and stuff like that. And when they investigated, I can remember my dad saying, "Hey, you know, he talking about me as just uh uh you know, I had gotten in trouble and got a whipping or something." And they did an investigation. They they like uh they collected blood samples and everything from the house, but the problem was they couldn't determine how long that blood had been there, I guess. and they didn't it wasn't a match to anybody in the house. So, for whatever reason, they just didn't have enough. And I I don't think they were allowed to talk to me. I think my dad would have had to have given them permission for the investigators to interrogate me. So, I don't recall ever giving testimony as a child. police in that instance or in the instance up in uh Tennessee. >> Did you provide any testimony to the police in any of those five cases? Well, the one case with the military with a child pornography. you you >> the the the the I can remember the sheriff talking to me at the uh at the beach in Panama City and I don't remember what all was was said but I can remember my dad tried to get out of there and the guy that went and fished me out my dad's a pretty big guy and he's he can fight but the guy that went and got me was like a I mean he was a tank so it wasn't something that he wanted to really get into a fight about over there and the, you know, people started coming in. So they, my parents, I can remember them trying to hug me and stuff. Oh my god, thank God. I can remember the guy that fished me out, they said, there's no goddamn way. I heard that from 150 yards away and you're standing there watching him and you didn't hear it, you know, and you know, they tried to play it off like, well, we just thought he was playing, you know, swimming and stuff like that. And I can remember the sheriff asking, "Do you know how to swim?" And I said, "No, sir." And they were like, "Okay, this this [ __ ] sucks." You know, there's no way that this is legitimate. And I can remember the sheriff in Alabama talking to my dad and saying, "There better not be anything that happens to him." He said, "Because I'm just going to go ahead and tell you, you're going to go to jail. I don't care." He said, "I'll make sure of it." So they they had a sense, but they didn't know they didn't have enough of what they thought of as evidence to do anything. >> Exactly. Right. >> And that was the case with Samantha as well. >> Yes. >> And and your dad wouldn't let them talk to you. >> What's that? >> And your dad wouldn't let the the police officers talk to you. >> So >> Right. That also seems weird. That he he did. Huh. >> It seems weird. I I mean I know in Canada is a bit different like in terms of you know there would have been folks from child protection services there and they would have gotten you away from your adopted fathers to talk to you to talk to you. >> You wouldn't have gone through that sort of horror in Canada. I'm >> well >> I'm really sad at one point occurred >> at at one point CPS did take me so I got into the foster care system and the ultimately uh I'm I'm just going to I was ungovernable incorraable as as at that point in my life if if you said something to me um you know I didn't necessarily I I didn't care who you were I I wasn't necessarily going to do that and I might just hit you, you know, because that was just my response to life at that point. So, uh, eventually I made my way right back to that house. So, >> uh, I can tell you that throughout the process of trying to work with me, Jane Goodall was one of the people that worked with me. So, I know that she is still alive. I think she's still alive. I think she's 91 now. Yeah. >> And she might recall having worked with me because I I would have been one of the strangest cases she ever had because at around that time frame, I had made the decision that I would no longer let anybody get within arms reach of me. And if they did, I just I'd fight for my life. >> So, you know, people had to stay away from me. I could talk. I mean, I wasn't like a a feral animal, but I just would not allow people within my personal space anymore. And because of her work, you know, with with apes and everything with gorillas, you know, they they kind of reached out to her to make contact with me to see if they could help me. >> Yeah. >> And did you talk to Jean Good at all about what you'd experienced getting trafficked? I know when you and I spoke by email messenger you said was from during about 1978 to 1986 is what you remembered 9 to 13 but you're not sure it could have been as early as 6 or 7 years old. >> Right. Right. I don't really start remembering what was going on till about 10 or 11 and uh I just know that it happened before that. I can I can remember being sexually assaulted by family, uh that's some of my very first memories. So, um but as far as taking me to other places at these parties and and whatnot, I I I know that that sort of thing was happening, but I just don't have a good enough recollection to really piece together much of a story. So whether you were six or seven years old or or 10 or 11 years old with the parties when you came, >> right? >> I know family was assaulting me and then friends of family were assaulting me as early as six or seven. I I know that some of my very first memories >> are of being assaulted. Um but as far as taking me to places to make money at these parties, I don't have a clear recollection. It may have happened as early as the the first sexual assaults that were happening with family. Um, but I don't have a clear recollection if that was going on to that scale at that time, but do have a recollection from about 10 or 11. >> Okay. So, how much >> I know. >> No, no, it's it's okay. I'm I'm I'm glad you're you're you and I are able to have such a thorough discussion and and I appreciate again how straightforward forthright you are. You know, it's it's extremely important. Um, >> I mean there's a part of me that just wants to point fingers in every direction, but I have I have really thought about, okay, what do I recall vividly enough that uh that I would put my hand on the Bible in a courtroom, raise my hand, and say, "Yep, that's the truth." And and what I am as close to 100% certain that if you put me on a polygraph, it would come back just as perfect. Yeah. >> So, there are other things that I could maybe point fingers at, but then it kind of gets into muddying the water because I don't really remember them that well. >> Well, I think >> that's why I've just >> Yeah. No, that's that's good. And I think what what I'd like to do like we'll continue, you know, discussing a bit about we're talking about now. um the things that you're le sure of. I'd like to look at a a second a a dis a conversation just entirely focused on what you're not sure of just because I think there is some important information there. But I don't want to muddy the waters in terms of what we're speaking about now that you that you are willing to testify in a court of law about. So, so let's f continue focusing about any of the details about what you're willing to swear to in a court of law >> and then >> right, >> you know, then let's look at I would maybe look at say a second discussion and any any follow on questions from this discussion or I might just look at getting everything transcribed and I'm just going to look at it raw because honestly in terms of um you know all the there's Obviously thousands and thousands of of pieces of video footage film that the FBI took that's all gone into some >> whoever's been trying to profit off of is nonsense. So my what I'm looking at I'm thinking even a a combination like just a brief summary for me like a paragraph and I'll even look at at just publishing the raw audio file of our discussion >> okay >> with the text messages because I think the context is really important I think especially because there's been so much collusion regarding copy editing of video footage that you know folks that are really wanting that are genuinely wanting justice. You know, for them to just hear the audio recordings and read the text messages is plain as day. Anybody that experiences an ounce of integrity will be able to discern the truth. And I think it's so important. >> I love that decision. >> And I I kind of wanted to discuss one other thing too. one kind of theme at these parties that that seemed to be very uh very well thought out is they would have a larger party in the beginning, right? And and in these larger parties, you might have say uh a couple of fights or some drug use or uh you know things that that that that were kind of we say mildly illegal. But the parties would go on for multiple days and as the uh thing wound down to the smaller inner circle in the last day or last two days or whatever, that's when the really horrible [ __ ] happened. Mhm. >> So, some of the people that attended the party, possibly even people like Clarence Thomas or Lindsey Graham, may have been involved in lesser things, uh, but then were also at the uh, same time and place where these more horrible things happened, but they didn't necessarily participate in those more horrible things. So that seemed to be an underlying theme of and and this is just me speculating here as an adult where they would try to get these affluent people in all of these positions of of power and influence to come participate in these parties where all of these things were going on so that you know if Clarence Thomas I'll just use him if he was there at the party well then surely nothing you know that nefarious could be going on type of situations. Yeah. >> But as the party wound down, that's when people in my position would would really begin to get scared because that's when either going to get assaulted and maybe really busted up or, you know, I mean, even watching somebody die is is really [ __ ] horrible, you know. Did Did it Did you see anyone else die besides um Samantha and and Patricia? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So, uh I watched I watched a grown man get beaten to death. He had done something uh that pissed off the people that were running it and they killed him. I saw another girl the in addition to Patricia when I was making the film with the girl they came in and shot her while we were having sex. That was some sort of snuff film. >> Yeah. >> Um and then in the brothel there were two people that got killed. Uh Sarah killed herself and then a girl I don't remember her name. She was she was shot and killed and then another girl was also shot and killed. Okay. And all >> I can remember >> No, go ahead. >> Me and Samantha having to clean up. Uh we didn't have to do anything with the body, but I can remember me and Samantha had to clean up the blood and everything from from both Sarah Sarah's suicide, which was an assisted suicide. Samantha actually shot Sarah. Um but Sarah wanted her to do it. She couldn't pull the trigger herself. So that's just so Samantha did it. I was in the room when she did, but it wasn't it wasn't a murder. Samantha didn't murder her. Sarah just I can remember her just saying, "I just I can't go to another party. I can't be here. Please." You know, >> another of the victims, I don't know if you've read about, uh, the British woman Sarah Ransom was on the Epstein Island and and tried to swim off the island and was willing to drown than then go through another >> Yeah. torture. I mean, it's it's some horrible horrible [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> And, you know, it's it I can remember the the hillbillies that my dad sold me to when I was small. They were mean. Um, but I can remember the meanest [ __ ] are those rich people. They are just demonic. Trump included. >> Yeah. Well, I'm going to ask you some questions there again. So, with the the the rich folks that you were sold to, that was all associated with with the Epstein Trump trafficking ring. And you said to me you thought Trump ran things with Epstein. Is that true? Oh yes. He was not just a a client. He was one of the the people that facilitated all that stuff. It it was almost like uh and this is just my childhood brain piecing it together. It was almost as if Epstein worked for Trump and not just Trump but him and maybe six or eight other super rich guys. So, do you remember ran it? >> Yeah. >> At the behest of Trump and and that circle of people. So, it was it was just a I I couldn't tell you how many people, but he was the only one that that that I remember that was at that level. But it wasn't that Trump was a John visiting, you know, Epstein's empire of of uh you know, uh child victims. It was Trump was in a position above Epstein. It was as if Epstein worked for Trump. >> Yeah. >> And the rest of those ultra rich guys. >> Do you remember? >> Like he ran that ring for them. >> No. No. I understand. I so so red so so Jeffrey was sort of presented publicly as the ring leader of the pedophile ring but Jeffrey was basically behaving like uh like a general manager of the ring and then there was seven or eight other individuals such as Trump that were actually actively running the ring micromanaging telling Jeffrey what to do. they he he would give Epstein that caliber of person because I it wasn't just Epstein. Epstein had people that worked with him too on a on a lower level that would go like find runaways and stuff like that. >> Yeah. >> So I don't I don't know where they got the people. I can't I can't say that. But you know it was it was this this whole thing was being run as a Yeah. and for those rich people. >> Yeah. I I want to ask some more questions in terms of your sense of like the demonic um some of some of the the advisory work I've done, some of my own specifics of law enforcement. Um, you know, I've come into contact I've minimized any content with I'm familiar with a lot of really horrific horror stories that involve um, Satanists, occult practitioners, theistic Satanists. You know, I've I've spoken to folks that um, were able to get out of the theistic Satanist cults. A lot of the torture techniques you describe are similar to theistic Satanist torture techniques. um sexual torture, >> human trafficking, human countibism and what I want I I you know what what's your sense in terms of these parties that that what do you remember like was there any overt I know a lot of the attendees presented themselves as Christians but their practices are are full-blown demonic satanic do you have the sense that any of them were actually secretly practicing ing any sort of occult rituals or were they just like rich fish fake Christians that just didn't experience a conscience? >> I think it's the latter. Just rich fake Christians. I can I can tell you uh one thing specifically that Trump did. >> Yeah. >> And uh that I remember vividly. He uh I was exhausted and I couldn't fight back and he sat on my chest and would choke me until I was unconscious. And each time that he did it, he'd say, "I'm going to kill you." So, and then he would choke me until I was out. And you know, he did that, you know, half a dozen times or however many times. And I can remember him saying, "I thought I killed you that time. I'm really going to do it this time." and then choked me again. So he would just do that over and over again until he got bored of it. >> So that's >> Did you get the sense that he was trying to kill you or just to torture you about the thought >> in in the moment? In the moment you think you're going to die? Yeah. And that that's the experience that that he wants to see the fear in another human being's eyes that thinks that that that he's killing them, you know. >> Yeah. Um, but looking back, I just think he was just torturing me. You know, I don't think I think if had he wanted to kill me, he could have, you know, he could have just kept choking me until I was I was gone. Cuz I did I did get choked until I was unconscious. I don't know, as many as half a dozen times, maybe more. >> Yeah. >> You know, uh, so that's the type of thing that he would do or worse, you know. Um, I believe I wouldn't swear to this, but I believe that on that instance they had told my dad had told him, "Hey, you can't bust him up. You can't break stuff." Um, you know, because all his CPS [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> So, and and I want to say I want to say he was upset at the end of that, too, because of the bruising. you know, they didn't break bones or anything. >> Uh, but, you know, obviously I had bruising around my neck and different bruises on my body and and uh uh that's something else, too, that that I'm just remembering right now as I'm talking to you, at least one instance, the school nurse uh got CPS involved, I believe. >> Yeah. in both Tennessee and Alabama because of the bruises that I showed up to school with. >> Yeah. >> You know, of course, my parents just said, "Hey, he's clumsy. You know, he fell out of a treehouse or whatever excuse they gave, you know, um but there was it was looked into, but obviously nothing nothing materialized from it." >> Okay. So, let me see. Can I call you back in about 10 minutes? >> Sure. >> I just I just want to make sure I've got the recording set, you know, that I want to get into a file folder and get some duplicates and then I'll call you back. Okay. >> Okay. Sounds good. >> Talk to you in a minute. Bye-bye.