[Music] Hi guys, welcome back to another episode of the usual place. Now today we're going to get wellversed inverse the voluntary early redevelopment scheme where owners of flats aged 70 years and older will be able to vote on whether the government should buy back their homes before their leases run out. Now, Minister for National Development, Chihongt, dropped the news a couple of days ago. So, it's something that a lot of home owners have been waiting to hear about, especially as the clock keeps ticking on those 99-year leases. Now, to figure out whether to verse or not to verse, I'm joined by my colleague and land use reporter King Jin, who covers housing as well, and Christine Sun, the chief researcher researcher and strategist at Relion Group, a real estate company. Thank you guys for being here. Hello. Hi. Hi. Okay. So, I want to start out just to give the audience uh and the people listening to us a refresher before we get into the hows and wise of the scheme. Can you tell me um what do we absolutely need to know about first? Maybe Kenjun because you wrote the story. What do we need to know about first? I think whatever you said so far actually has covered what we know about it that uh they're going to be selected precincts age 70 years and up where residents can choose whether or not they want to go for early redevelopment. Uh that's as much as we know at the moment. We also know that uh well there's verse and sir and in terms of sers owners were getting paid compensated market value. Uh we know that verse compensation isn't going to be as generous but I think that's as far as we know for now. Okay. So so we'll get into in a little bit which is a selective um onblock redevelopment scheme right um and we call it Christine do you want to tell us what else we need to know about verse at the moment? M um as the name uh suggests um the verse means that it's voluntary. So uh maybe it you know um to give a bit of a perspective I think it's good to maybe compare s and verse. So maybe I'll jump at that. Okay, let's get into that first then. Yeah. Yeah. Because um so people will understand like what's the difference between sers and verse. Okay. So if you look at uh s as the name uh suggests is that um is selective. So that means that uh not all flats will be eligible um will be uh that means eligible to be selected for redevelopment. So from what we understand is that uh the percentage is actually not very high maybe about uh 5% of the total housing population and I understand that uh from I think in the past to now there were only about 80 projects that undergone uh s so that means there will be a good 95% that will not uh go through s whereas for verse we do expect um this number to be much higher because uh I think is the other thing that we want to see is that the purpose of sers and verse is very different because If you look at Cerse most of time when they select uh certain flats to be redeveloped it could be because um there's a redevelopment uh potential in that certain uh location maybe because the land is not maximized or it could be sitting in a very good location that you need to really maybe demolish the flats because to make way for maybe MRT station or MRT line so it's not really about the age of the flat when it comes to correct may not be the main consideration correct uh whereas for verse um is put in place because they want to address the issue of uh lease decay. So uh that means that you know um when they put this down um the areas I suppose may not even perhaps they may include areas that may not be like um let's say the prime areas or even locations that may not uh be uh maybe high on redevelopment you know because I think the perspective is very different um probably the government want to help as many people as possible so because of that we do expect like uh the terms to be quite different but uh when they offer service these flats may not the aging because by and large they are sitting in maybe very good locations. So we expect like maybe um some of them could be even 40 years you know or 50 years old whereas for verse they are going to select flats that are much older that means maybe 70 years. So because of you know the age of the flat we do expect the payout that means the compensation that owners are going to receive will be uh much less. So the minister chi said it was he outlined his scheme in very broad terms and he said that in this term of government the aim is to develop and flesh out the framework for verse right um what is it we don't know yet so could it be like the number of flats because that wasn't shared right how many flats where they're going to be tenjin do you have some sense of what which flats could be selected which areas so on your question of what we don't know about verse I think one of the things we don't know yet is how widespread the scheme is going to be. Uh I think that maybe there's a an assumption now that everybody who reaches or every every block that reaches age 70 and older qualifies, but that might not be the case. I think we also do know exactly what the compensation is going to be. And under compensation, uh in terms of what the new flat will look like, how long the lease is going to be, I think these are factors that people will take into consideration when they decide whether or not to proceed with us. And I think the third thing that also we don't know at the moment is what exactly the voting threshold is going to be. Uh yeah because I mean ultimately I see vers as a policy tool to allow the the government to do rejuvenation of estates earlier uh than waiting for 99 years lease to end. And I think if if they want to proceed with rejuvenation early, they're going to have to sweeten the deal for current flat owners to an extent where it's attractive enough for them to want to say, "Okay, maybe about 7:30, about 70 years, I'm willing to to give it up, move somewhere else." Yeah. Um, so the whole verse thing throws up a lot of questions for me as a homeowner of a kind of older flat. So my son is about 36 years old and I'm looking at verse and I'm like okay one thing is why did the government not make this compulsory like sers Christine um I think that's a very good um question because if you look at how they do s and verse is very different I mean the mentality of the that means the mindset you know that people approach this subject as well as the age of the that means the profile of the owner let's say for example if you look at s um they're making it compulsory because they know that uh the compensation will likely be quite attractive because these flats are still uh relatively not old and I think if I'm not wrong they are given a certain grant to select uh another new flat in another area. So we are not very sure if they're going to um you know allow that to happen for verse but for verse it will be quite different because by the time they approach you to do verse your flat will be much older that means you'll be 70 years old and I assume that many of these residents uh by the time the flat reaches that age they may not be um too young or know some of them could even be retirees. So let's say for example if you make it compulsory and you're not going to give me a very big sum of money as compensation then how am I going to buy another flat where am I going to shift to you know so you have to give the person the option to choose whether you want to stay until the end of the lease or you want to take this sum of money and perhaps maybe shift somewhere with your children or you know you you maybe you may want to select maybe a public rental flat or any other options. So I guess that could be one big reason why they are not making um this compulsory. So in the sense sorry Kenjing were you going to add on? Uh well I guess for SE uh the one consideration is that it's actually very costly for the government to to go ahead with SER and as we've seen through SE most uh of the flat owners or the lease holders get a a lease top up a fresh lease of 99 years which is quite counterintuitive to why 99 year leases are in place in the first place and that is to allow for land for future generations and also allow for renewal. Yeah. Well, the thing that also stood out to me was what Minister Chi did not say was he did not say which areas would get it, right? And also I think there's a it's also unsaid that maybe not all flats will get it. Um so what happens to all flats that don't get verse then then they do they like do residents stay out till the 99 year lease and then what happens then? Like what what's your take on that? Well, I think that um let's say for example um this question may not be um maybe so important let's say for example for the first few batches because uh when we did a calculation let's say for example like how many verse that means how many flats will be eligible for verse maybe in the next maybe 15 years let's say for example so uh we did a quick calculation using HTB data from uh data.gov And um let's say for example uh if you count backwards maybe 60 or 70 years old then maybe you minus away 15 years. So that means the flat is about 45 years old to maybe 60 years old now. And this population of flats is um maybe about 170 uh,000 flats and uh that means in 15 years time these flats will be reaching about 60 to 70 years old. So potentially they may be offered verse and this is around 15% of the to total housing stock about 1.14 million. So if you're asking this question let's say for example we maybe for next 15 years uh we'll see that perhaps many of these flats may be offered verse but I think the problem will come in when uh the this number is going to go up you know because we know that you know um government they ram up uh more and more housing later on especially in the '9s and then after that uh after maybe 2000 and so on. So um I guess maybe right now for our generation most people may not even be really thinking about this question yet you know uh how how is verse going to affect my buying decision um and maybe it may come to that state maybe much later. Yeah, I think back to the question of what what you're asking right whether or not if we don't go for verse what happens to us. I think quite simply I know it's more like if my blog doesn't get chosen for so I I don't even have the option to verse right then then I guess you just I think you live so what happens then like should I plan ahead I mean since since we're talking about buying decisions right how did this whole announcement change things for homeowners now um maybe I'll just give a very uh brief background about what happened because um I I I went to do a a research quick research you know and I found that um this this all these thing happened is because there was one stage where many people were paying quite high prices for older flats I think in Tongaru and then it was like the million dollars and then and and that becomes an issue because a lot of people were going for the so-called lottery effect they thought that you know they can get s uh not only they get a sum of money they get to maybe buy a newer flat and at a good price you know uh with certain grants so uh and what happened was that I think in 2017 uh that's when uh then minister for M &D I think he said that you know not all flats will go through s and then there was also then um quite a bit of a discussion about what's going to happen and I went to see the property price index and after the announcement we did see that uh prices they did come down and stagnate for uh about 3 years and then uh things got better after a pandemic and especially after they announced that they have verse so um well I I I I feel that um that is the background of why you know they have to come out to say that um they are going to do something about verse because after they did you know the announcement that you know not every flat will have s uh that's when a lot of uh home owners were very worried about what's going to happen you know actually one of the interesting things I saw online was people saying you got to accept that lease decay is real as in not lease decay sorry the 99 year lease is a real thing the government will take it back it absolutely should be a real thing I I I'm okay. Okay. At some point, I did think that because there were so many flats, they would just extend the lease, but there's probably me being naive cuz with verse now, they're saying this is short, right? Like they're they're making sure that they're telling you that 99 year lease will happen, right? So, Kenjin, your thoughts about, you know, how this changes buyer insight or whether will people avoid older flats now? I feel like we are actually in an unprecedented situation because we don't have flats that are 70 years old. The oldest flats we have are perhaps in their early 60s and so it's a bit difficult to say like oh the market sentiment has really changed that much because we haven't seen flats that are 70 years old being so on the resale market. What we do know is that at the moment flats that are the oldest whether in terms of uh the block completion date or in terms of the lease start date these are still being traded on the resale market. uh and I think one of the one of the clusters is in Commonwealth close as far as I checked uh within the last year there was still close to about 50 transactions. So just based on what the market tells us so far without knowing the details of vers there's still a demand for such flats for for older flats within the resale market. Yeah, maybe I add on um what we did was that uh I I yesterday I went to look at the pricing you know uh in terms of older flats. So uh what I found out is that uh from HTB data is that yes you're right that in fact I feel that the announcement of verse is actually quite good because after they announced the verse um there was actually a spike in terms of demand for older flats. So let's say for example older flats we define them as maybe uh 40 years and and older uh in terms of uh lease. So uh when we look at the transactions uh maybe around because just now I mentioned that they they uh started this whole conversation about 2017. So if you look at the transactions before 2017 like maybe 2016 uh there were about 1,500 u older flats that were transacted in 2016. So for the whole year the these are the older flats let's say for example uh 40 years and and above. And if you fast forward to let's say for example last year 2024 this number actually went up to if I'm not wrong around 6,000. So it shows that you know even when there's so much conversation about lease decay and all this after they announced the verse and even with not much details we see that um by and large people are actually quite open to buying uh these older flats. And if you talk about in terms of pricing, um I think it's also quite surprising for me when I look at maybe like for example those older flats maybe 40 years and above and they are sold at maybe higher price uh points. Let's say example like maybe more than 800,000 and again you know if you look at let's say before the pandemic um averageely maybe about 50 of these units old flats fetch about 800,000 and above but if let's say for example if you look at last year um if I'm not wrong there were about 300 of such flats that were sold uh above um let's say 800 over thousand and of which around 60 were sold for even more than a million dollars. Yeah. So I I guess that you know I think this verse uh to me I feel that at least there is uh some sort of u uh exit strategy that means it gives an option to buyers um let's say for example if you really don't want to leave until the end of the lease you know at least you can select for verse which is an alternative so since you're talking about buying and selling how will this affect prices in a very you know hot market at the moment do you think it's kind of like a cooling measure in a way. In a way. Um or will or will newer flats be more attractive now with longer leases? So prices for those will those go up significantly? What what would you think? Um well of course um I think what you are asking is maybe because you know concerns about this aging flats that's why more people will go for the younger flats. Um I would think that because if you're talking about HTV housing, I mean public housing is talking about more than a million flats. So there are many uh different types of uh buyers out there. So from what I illustrated just now uh it shows that even with uh you know the government pushing out a lot of uh maybe new BTO flats or even uh sale of balance flats you see that demand for even older flats are there because there will always be people who they don't mind paying slightly a bit more for these older flats because usually many of these older flats are in mature estates um big units so they are very comfortable and in fact some people um after they let's say for example, they sell their private uh properties, they get a sum of money and they can pay off the whole um you know uh older flat the the purchase price. So if we talk about let's say for example right now with the verse um after they announced um does it have a very major impact on prices? Um I did see that after they did the announcement on verse some years back uh there was a increase uh in terms of demand as well as prices but that could also be because overall HTB resale prices have been moving but if you talk about price growth um is still uh slower than newer flats. Okay. Um I was I I wanted to go back to something that King Jun wrote earlier this week which was a news analysis following the announcement. Right. And I think there's a social element to this first project. So it's not just about aging, lease decay because what we what was in your news analysis was that people stay together and then when as in it's a multigenerational families that happen together. It's not just older people who are in their flats, right? So when you hit 99 years or you hit 70 and and then you get the option to first, there are still people who are younger who may outlift the flat, right? So can you tell talk more about your news analysis about you know the compensation part that people might expect and how it can cater for what can be done to cater for you know the the other younger generation in the in who live there and now have to move or they have to live out the 99 years what were some of the analyst saying and what was your take well I think when you're looking at the social element or the social impact of us actually uh it might be beneficial to take uh even further step back. So if you're looking at like on a neighborhood level if if you have I mean if redevelopment projects there's going to be some dis amenities to residents and then that vers also includes this element of uh voting right and we don't know the threshold yet but assuming I it's just impossible that you're going to get I don't think you're going to get into a situation where uh you have 100% agreement that let's go for verse so inevitably there's going to be some there going to be some lease holders who want to live out their current leases and stay in their homes uh until the end of the ning years and um assuming that the threshold is hit and they they are forced to move then verse doesn't become voluntary for them anymore and how can we uh how can we as a sort of society uh deal or or manage the expectations or feelings of these people uh I think that calls for right and then you are asked to leave yes and I think that calls for some u empathy both from a policy makers perspective as well as uh as as fellow residents as fellow neighbors. Uh and then like you said there there also we do know we do not yet know the details of what replacement flats will look like but just going by trends and going by how newer flats are generally smaller than those that are a few decades old. Uh there's a possibility that multi-generational families in a household in a bigger flat now will meet will be offered something smaller. uh and I think that causes or that factors into considerations as well in terms of whether or not to take up verse um and what some of the uh policy observers were saying that perhaps this is an opportunity to see if uh there's a differential treatment for these kind of families in terms of offering them maybe two units. Yeah. Christine, you want to add on? Um I think if you talk about let's say for example just now he mentioned about the voting I think this will be uh something that is very interesting to watch because uh if you look at the equivalent of this kind of uh um voting it will be like maybe the collective sales in the private market yes which we have seen it can go on and on right and then people get angry and then they will be upset with their neighbors. So in my mind that could kind of cause some discord if I'm leaving my HD block and then I want to do verse and then you don't want to do verse then how so my my thinking let's say for example like you know it's already such a complicated process when you do it for maybe a private property project. So can you imagine you do it like a whole precin or even like a few blocks within the estate. So um I my guess is that perhaps they may consider maybe lowering the threshold maybe to be slightly lower than 80%. I don't know. Yeah. Do you think they will redo the vote if okay first year you say no right at first year they don't get the the necessary to gohead with us and then like two years later the block sees like their neighbors or us. Do you think that that could be a possibility of a recount recount recount revote revote? Yeah. It means they will just continue to vote and vote you know until Yeah. Because it would be Yeah. changing you going to say? Well, I think just generally speaking, I think there's a possibility that as as blocks age, people's or residents perceptions of whether or not they still want to continue all the way to the end might change. Yeah. But that that also remains to be seen. And uh yeah, whether whether it's a one-off offer, you don't take it up this time, uh never again, you just live out the N years, I think also is something that the policy makers have to consider. Actually, some people might say I don't mind living out the 99 years because they're doing they will do HIPP2. Is that Yeah, HIPP2 which is just upgrading um when it hits that certain age like 70 or about 60. True. Okay. So, it's a more intensive HIP from what I understand and then they'll just reinforce and make sure the building is still. So, you could want to live out till 99. M I mean I'm just trying to fast forward maybe like maybe 50 years time when we start seeing some of these things happening because right now we keep thinking about like you know the older flats maybe flats that our grandmother or grandparents or great-grandparents they live in but if let's say you fast forward the time I'm just thinking if let's say one day when um duen let's say pinnacle duon goes for verse you know so I believe that you know um maybe different profile of um maybe different types of uh housing you could see like maybe higher uh vote that means votes and maybe certain uh areas that may not be so popular and they want to exit the market. So you may see more people voting for verse. Yeah. Because like for example imagine um places like even right now they are selling like the new flats in greater southern waterfront maybe the ones in let's say topayo you know some of these are very good locations. Yeah. So I believe that many people you know when even if the flats are going to be older they may want to continue to stay on. Yeah. So I mean if you're asking like what is the kind of impact on buyers now so I don't know whether you know if things are not said so clearly. So you know when you are trying to see you know should I buy at Mount Pleasant or should I buy at let's say for example uh maybe somewhere slightly further like Sambawang or even a new area in Chancharu. Which one have a higher chance of, you know, getting verse? Yeah, I I don't think people have thought about it so far, but um I think it'll be interesting thing to think about. I mean, I will confess that the only time I thought about verse is this week actually to to they they made the announcement actually PM then PM Lee made the announcement in 2018, right? So, it's been about seven years and correct me if I'm wrong, King Jing, because you're the expert on this. There has been no like major announcement till now correct about it. I mean interestingly is there reason do we know why they decided to do that because actually the project doesn't start till the 2030s right so do you have some sense of why uh Minister Chi decided to announce it now well uh it's difficult to say for sure I think one one thing to note was that when then PMD announced it in 2018 he said that this was going to take place uh I believe the the number that he gave was 20 years so if we simple math 2038 uh whereas now Mr. is saying that the first projects will likely take place uh in the first half of the next decade, meaning the the early 2030s. So assuming that you you you split that down into 2030 to 2034, uh there's still a 4 year gap between what was originally said and when they look to be starting the first verse project now. Uh and that tells me that potentially uh the government wants to get started with estate rejuvenation early because like they've said right if if it's a assuming our HTB blocks were built to live for about a century and you have many blocks hitting that century mark in the 2070s and 2080s and there's a lot of potential rejuvenation that needs to be done and so starting on verse projects early in the 2030s assuming that uh assuming residents go ahead with it. Uh gives them gives them a bit of a head start. I think also uh just going back to these dates, we're talking about 2070s, 2080s and then uh when verse kicks in at about 70 years old, so 2040s and 2050s is when things start to to ramp up. Uh I think the early start gives them time to or gives the government time to roll out the policy first and then make tweaks if needed so that when crunch time hits and when more uh when more and more flats hit the 70s the policy will be hopefully in a better state by then than it was when it when it was first released in the early 2030s. Should we make anything about how Mr. Chi Minister Chi said that there won't be anymore there are no plans for sir at the moment. So again again looking from uh from the lenses of estate renewal and and wanting to rejuvenate estates. I think ultimately I I feel that lease decay is real and that we should take lease the case seriously. And so I see verse uh I see verse as a way of uh the government creating supply of land so that it can proceed with rejuvenation early. uh and and hence I alluded to earlier it's quite it's quite important that if they really need the land then they find a package for verse that is sufficiently attractive for residents to take it on uh in the absence of that I do wonder if if s might make a comeback or if at least that the element of uh compulsory acquisition may come back if the land is really needed that urgently for rejuvenation Christine you think we'll see s ever Um I mean I okay let's say for example before I address that question um just now you were saying you know why is it that they want to address this now um my thoughts is that actually to me as a Singaporean I'm I feel very confident and happy that they are doing you know uh this plan right now although we know that the flats that will be eligible for verse will be maybe just another another 10 to 15 years and the bulk will be after 20 years Um I mean we know that our government is always very forwardlooking. So for them to do this process let's say for example just now as we mentioned the voting and things like that I think it's going to be very complicated and you're talking about uh involving a lot of people uh with a lot of uh you know stakeholders especially you're talking about aging population. So with older flats then there'll be many people who may not be having maybe uh income when they are going to go through verse. So these are some things that they need a lot of consultation maybe you know from maybe the public feedback and all. So to start right now I think is timely because um especially since they are going to look at rejuvenating you know it's like almost all over the island they're going to convert so many areas. So with that in place they also have to think about what are they going to do with the older flats. M so I think it's timely and um it's good because it will also comfort I mean um maybe assure some people who may be very worried about lease decay and of course they have to take care of the needs of home owners who want to sell their flats both for the younger flats as well as the older flats. So they have to do something about it. So I think at least like I say there is an an alternative so they allow you to select whether you want to take it up. So at least there is a choice rather than to allow the lease to just uh finish and then there's like no other um outlet you know or no other option. So u but I think you're right. I think most of the Singaporeans right now probably they may not be thinking about this verse because just now I was just discussing with my colleagues you know I say imagine you because the lease starts when you collect the keys. So imagine you buy the flat maybe at maybe uh you ballot at 25 26 years old wait four years collect the keys at 30 years old and uh when your flat reaches 70 for verse you'll be 100 years old so I don't think many people you know at the when they buy their first flat they'll be thinking about verse because I think virtually that's not possible and even when we look at the data um historically from 995 um about more than 50% of the transactions takes place uh that means uh before the flat reaches 30 years old that means most of people they will have sold their flats um so if you're talking about you know whether um when they think about this verse how it's going to impact them then I think it will be more for the second time buyers or third time buyers and by then these people be much older so it's something that uh they will need to think about it yeah okay I mean I think for me I was kind of referencing what happened with sus in the amukio the last one which which they did in 2022, right? And why I was look what what struck me about the story was that some people didn't have enough money to top up for the replacement flat in a sense. I don't know if cuz and and and m Mr. Chi said in for verse the compensation might not be as generous as s right. So is there like that that was the concern for me. I mean if people have uh younger family members living in the flat and then now they have to move out. So I might the flat might outlive me but the younger generation might not then what happens to them if they can't like top up the money for a new flat. I think that will be my concern if if I have family members living with me which is what we discussed. by then they probably will look at um allowing these people maybe certain priorities or you know um or maybe a higher percentage for people of maybe this category to buy back a BTO flat which we know that is highly subsidized. Um I also wanted to make a suggestion that maybe the government can consider if let's say for example if u these people are displaced from the verse um maybe they can allow the elderly to maybe stay in comare the com care apartments is it yeah so um that could be a possibility because many of them are um older and they may also need all these um maybe medical facilities all the elderly friendly features you know so maybe this could also encourage them to go for verse because they are essentially exchanging your your house with maybe I mean most of these may not have this kind of elderly friendly features and if they go for these comare apartments then maybe they may instead vote for it. Yeah. So this could be a possibility then like just now as King Jim mentioned if you go for verse they could allow maybe like two options that means you can try as a second timer for another BTO flat you know u maybe at a certain location or nearby or whatever. Yeah. So I mean this could be some correct I I I believe that I I mean personally I don't think that you know um the I mean we know how the government you usually how they treat Singaporeans. They will not leave people homeless. So I believe that even when they do this verse, they will have some backup plan. I believe. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, sorry Kji, you going to say? No, I think well verse or not, the the situation that you you painted for us just now, uh 99 years is 99 years. And so if you you have a second generation who's going to take over the flat and live out that 30 years, either way, they would have had to plan for for life beyond 99. I think uh that's a reality. And even if we choose, let's say if a if a precinct chooses to verse versus one that is offered the option but doesn't take it up, uh those who take it who those who don't take it up shouldn't be worse off. They should still be able to continue living through their 99 years and and uh either way, they're going to have to consider what to do at the end of that lease anyway. Yeah. So I I don't think that verse necessarily factors in uh should factor into their considerations as much as far as 99 years is is concerned. Yeah. Okay. So when people watch this podcast in 2045 which is like 20 years later. So the big question is to verse or not to verse after all that we've discussed. What do you think? I think attend the public consultations when they open in the next five years because I feel like there a lot of uh there's a lot of perhaps apprehension and confusion around uh policy. A lot of things have not been made clear to us yet. Uh and hopefully by the time the early 2030s come around uh much of this will have been answered. Okay. M well for me I feel that um it will depend on the where you're staying the type of flat and also maybe your income level because let's say for example um let's say uh this is a second time or third time buyer and you still have the means to you know get some income so maybe to vote for us you get some money you can buy another place but let's say for example if you are older and you are maybe a retirey then uh because we do know that the elderly single population is actually going up. So some of these people they may even outlive their siblings. So that one then maybe the the authorities will then have to think about what is the kind of uh um alternative like just now I mentioned is it going to be comare apartment maybe rental um you know um public rental flats. So these are some things to consider. Um then of course um maybe to to put ourselves you know forward to think about you know the the type of flats also make a difference. Let's say for example if I'm staying in let's say I'm just imagine I'm the one that bought like let's say in the greater southern waterfront or mouth pleasant where we expect that you know the construction process or the type of flats I suppose um the materials that they use you know the the way they're going to do it um likely these flats are going to last maybe beyond 99 years so it makes sense that let's say for example I will not pick up the verse and then I continue staying in this very welllo flats but if you're talking about you know you're now staying in maybe a really very much older flat that has been built like you know in the 1970s or ' 80s where the the the process is not that great materials is not that great and uh when it comes to the decay um it's quite difficult to maybe to leave continue living in even that area because there's only so much that they can do for let's say HIPP1 HIPP2 so um so that I feel is a consideration so I will feel that maybe as the years go by perhaps people taking up verse may be lesser than right now. Yeah. Because the conditions, the type of flats, the location. Imagine you're staying like at the MRT station. Yeah. Almost staying like in a public housing integrated development. Then likely these people will feel that hey, you know, actually my house still quite sturdy. So I'll just continue to stay until the end. And in fact, I'm if there's some more, you know, I'm not around, I may want to pass on, you know, to my next generation. So I guess we when we think about verse and s um I would encourage um home owners and even buyers to think long term to think about you know because when they put in place these kind of policies I believe it will not be shortterm it will affect a lot of flats it will come like many many years down the road so you know although there could be a lot of apprehension about verse and all but I guess that uh eventually I think things will work out um and I I'm quite positive like now you see all the new flats coming up. Yeah, it's so beautiful. So, why not continue to stay on, you know? Okay. Well, on that note, Christine King Jane, thank you very much for your thoughts and your insight into verse. Um, so that's it from the usual place, um, hopefully you will watch this again in 20 years when the verse happens and then you'll tell us what your decision is. Now, if you're watching us on YouTube, don't forget to like, subscribe, and hit the notification bell so that you won't miss the next episode. And if you have thoughts on the scheme, do drop a comment on YouTube or talk to me on Instagram at the usual place podcast. I'll see you next week on Thursday. [Music]