[Music] chill out no think and Sara not Schwarzenegger this time chill out that's that's better that's better welcome to the Arkham sessions everybody my name is Brian Ward and as always I'm joined by the incomparable Dr Andrea lendi hello Drea I couldn't possibly be any more excited than I am about this episode this is probably the most realistic episode psychologically what I mean by that is the um the events that take place and the impact that they have on this particular villain is perhaps the most um accurate in terms of his responses and his psychological presentation so I'm just thoroughly excited that I finally get to talk about this this week we're diving into Heart of Ice this is the episode that literally redefined the Mr Freeze character for the entire DC Universe not just the DC Animated Universe but the whole universe Comics movies video games this episode started at all tell listeners what you mean by that okay so here's the thing until this episode which introduces him to Batman the Animated Series Mr Freeze was um yet another silly gimmicky character in Batman's Rogues Gallery um in fact when he was first introduced in Batman number 121 in 1959 he was actually known as Mr zero like subzero yes exactly like Subzero of course yeah I mean referring to 0 deg you know the temperature at which freshwater freezes on the Celsius scale um he was created by David wood and Shelley mof though I guess in the Batman land that all boils down to credit given to Bob Kane um but Dave Wood did in fact write the first Mr free story it was uh called the ice crimes of Mr zero and Shelley mof was the pencor on U on that story it actually wasn't until the 1960s TV series um starring Adam West and Bert Ward that this character became known as Mr Freeze and all this time from the point that he was introduced in 1959 through the TV series where he was played by uh three different folks um George Sanders first then Otto preminger and then Eli wallik um Mr Freeze was pretty much much one of those one note gimmick villains who just froze things with his ice gun so if he needed to rob a bank he would just freeze whatever was in his way and then walk out with the money right um I mean interesting uh but but not quite uh that wasn't a very deep background or origin story for him no nothing no deep origin story which is why during the development for the Animated Series um Paul De and Bruce Tim made the decision to give uh legitimate backstories to some of Batman's jok characters because let's face it there were plenty of them and frankly they needed a Rogues Gallery so uh Paul De wrote this beautiful story that would ultimately become Victor Freeze's legitimate origin story not just in the Animated Series but also um in the comics going forward and in the Batman and Robin movie um chill out and you know uh that's been his story well until Mr Freeze was eventually reintroduced in the new 52 which uh even then still uses the basic framework for Deanie story but uh they made a few changes to make it sort of twisty and turny MH um still some good stuff absolutely uh and and what's funny is that actually if you look at the original writer Bible for the Animated Series this isn't frieza's backstory at all all uh the The Writer's Bible actually reads once a Shifty cryogenics expert running a body freezing scam Mr Freeze eluded the police in his lab only to be found out by Batman the two fought and freeze was knocked into a cryogenics chamber where he was frozen into a near-death state after he was revived he discovered he could only live in Sub-Zero temperature and vowed to make Batman pay for what had happened to him hm so different completely different and I'm so glad they decided to go the route they did um all of that really is just a long-winded way of saying this episode is awesome it is it's it's definitely you know up till now many of the episodes have been well written they've been interesting they've been psychologically heavy um this one is remarkably psychologically accurate as I mentioned but also just very heartbreaking and it it asks us to to question how we feel about people that do bad things you know like we actually explore the motivations of someone who's um who's seeking Vengeance and breaking rules and laws and quite you know murderous and so we were struggling a little bit in the audience with um sort of uh moral distress some feelings that uh that were um you know kind of brought out because of the writing and and I think that's really unique absolutely and this episode specifically even won the Emmy for Outstanding writing in an animated series um and has since even become listed as the number one episode for fans so let's go ahead and dive in the episode is called Heart of Ice it was written by Paul Dei and directed by Bruce Tim by the way Drea something you especially might find interesting um given your love of Hellboy Mike magnola is credited for having designed this incarnation of Mr Freeze Oh you mean like his suit yeah like the this this version of Mr Freeze is credited to Mike magnola for I could see that for the design yeah MH um the episode originally aired on September 7th 1992 so if you're paying attention at home this was actually the third episode aired which is interesting because uh when you see the newspaper clippings later in the Batcave you'll notice they're from Pretty Poison and nothing to fear which obviously hadn't happened yet in terms of air dat order but of course we're doing this in production order so we've seen those two cases so these clippings make perfect sense to us um and by the way if you've not heard those episodes focusing on um Poison Ivy and uh scarecrow and scarecrow please download them now fears and killer vaginas can't go wrong Drea let's briefly touch on the key points of the episode um Mr freeze is stealing parts to create a giant freeze Cannon my word because he's out for revenge against goth Corp CEO Ferris Bole uh Bole is the man Victor freeze holds responsible for the death of his wife Nora the monster who took you from me will soon learn that revenge is a dish best served cold who was cryogenically frozen by freeze after she was diagnosed with a terminal illness and when Bole found out about this little side project he was livid and had the entire operation shut down I say this project ends now U but in the process he and freeze have a little bit of a confrontation which results in boil kicking freeze into a set of chemicals that lowers his own body temperature to uh Sub-Zero temperatures now in the beginning of the episode as a result of the struggle boil actually thinks freeze is dead there's only one man who'd hate goth Corp that much if he were alive right he says like he hasn't seen him in a year right oh he actually says we lost him yeah we lost him um I think I I mean we certainly lost him in in the sense of his Humanity yeah we lost Victor freeze but now we have Mr is it possible that he that he knows no he seems pretty surprised yeah see yeah he seems pretty surprised but uh you know it it actually turns out that freeze now requires a special suit to survive and and basically believes that like his body um emotionally he's completely cold Drea you have a completely different take on this though well it's interesting because throughout the episode he says things like yes it would move me to tears if I still had tears to shed and everything about him the voice the um facial expression or lack thereof the um Detachment you know him being in that suit itself and being detached or separated from humanity and from other people it's as if he's asserting that he's lost his ability to have compassion to have feelings to care um but what's really interesting is that his actions kind of betray that right he's going after Ferris Bole he's um you know attacking anyone that gets in his way and he says a lot of things about getting Vengeance and my understanding then is that there are actually a lot of emotions going on and those emotions would be considered secondary emotions like anger hatred Vengeance in fact his um his behaviors betray what he's saying because he's going after Ferris Bole he's um seeking Vengeance you know D it's it's almost like his his life now is to go after this guy and to make him feel what his wife Norah perhaps felt or to make him feel the way that Mr Freeze himself feels so I actually see a lot of emotions there possibly what would be consider considered secondary emotions those emotions that may be the ones that he is experiencing you know under that suit but even below that those emotions actually come from a primary motion and I would say that primary motion is hurt feeling hurt and feeling pain now we don't see all that and he may not admit that but that's what I'm that's how I would kind of interpret his insistence on um coming across as being cold and emotionless so I see exactly what you're saying U but not all the feelings that he brings out onto the surface are all that negative he he does bring out this desire of longing he clearly misses her he's he's talking to her through this snow globe I fail you I wish there were another way for me to say it but I cannot um and and he talks about wanting to feel the warmth of her hand to never again War on a summer's day with a hot wind in your face and a warm hand to hold oh yes i' kill for that so he he sort of has these pleasurable memories if he's not even felt these things in a long time yeah no you're right he's it's like he's um I mean it's those moments are are quite sad because it's almost as if he's feeling longing for that yes and you're right he does remember he has perhaps memories of what those feelings are to have his partner those feelings of warmth and and caring but perhaps also the you know this Nostalgia and yeah I would say there are some positive feelings there so he says he's emotionless that he had doesn't have a feeling but clearly he's got a lot uh on the surface and even bubbling up from below the surface um you know what is the cause of all of that what is what is his his desire to keep these emotions down a result of well one thing that came to mind was all of those traumas that he experienced and you know you may be thinking like well it was just one trauma he was just in this accident but in fact you can look at what happened in that um in that lab as a series of multiple traumas so breaking them down one trauma is experiencing a life-altering life-threatening accident that's you know he's physically um impaired physically Changed by the accident that was caused by you know the chemical explosion the second is within that accident his wife's um life being threatened and the loss of someone very close to him nor Nora and finally you have the Betrayal or the Injustice incurred on Mr Freeze by someone that he trusted his employer so that that experience of you know being disillusioned um possibly trusting in someone and feeling betrayed that could be an additional life-changing event that happened to him as well right so if you think about it like it wasn't just one thing that happened to him a number of physical emotional so like all of these um you know sort of a complex series of traumas completely changed his worldview prior to that he could have potentially been a fairly healthy adaptive scientist who was very compassionate who was looking into treating you know what he called inoperable alements I mean he he could have been particularly healthy but the series of traumas that he experienced completely changed him and then there were the traumas prior to the accident in terms of like he was actually feeling grief over his wife already that's a really good point you know he his wife was um she had a some kind of illness they don't specify right but she has some kind of illness and in the file that Batman um discovers when he's he's broken into uh gothcore which is the company Ferris boil owns um he finds uh pictures of Nora and then her medical chart and I think it says like ter terminally ill and that her prognosis is is fairly you know bad so you're right right he could have been particularly vulnerable prior to this series of traumas but I do want to just emphasize that a number of things happened to him within this particular event that could have potentially shaped his worldview and it's interesting because a couple of years ago the Journal of loss and Trauma um investigated and looked into bereavement which is um you know kind of normal grief after the loss of somebody and they um they actually surveyed and studied a number of um participants who lost loved ones due to cancer many of the participants were were widows and um what they found is that up to 30% of those participants ended up getting PTSD following the death of their loved one wow yeah and and uh 26% had subclinical PTSD which which basically means that they met many of you know they met a lot of criteria for the disorder but didn't quite hit all of them so that means like a little you know about half of them experienced or presented with post-traumatic stress symptoms following something that's you know could could be particularly normal part of life so if anywhere between 50 and 70% don't show signs of PTSD or don't suffer from PTSD um what went wrong with Victor freeze in this case that's a great question because like how could we have predicted that experiencing those traumas would have led to him becoming Mr Freeze how did Victor freeze transform into to Mr Freeze um well what we know is that there are a number of questions that we should be asking following a traumatic event or a series of traumatic events that would actually predict the development of um of some kind of maladaptive response like PTSD so questions that I would ask if I had access to to Mr Freeze following those accidents would be things like this was he able to say goodbye to Norah properly with full closure and Reconciliation following the accident was he able to feel safe and secure himself following the accident did he understand what happened that led to the person's death so in other words what is this story of Norah's death is it full of blame is it full of accusation did he feel persecuted did he feel unfairness Injustice um you know did he feel to blame and we and we know that he did because he's he's after the guy who he blames he also blames himself a little bit too absolutely so you know this is typically important because sometimes uh someone's understanding of their loved one's death is actually skewed or inaccurate um so I've worked with a lot of veterans and soldiers for instance that feel particularly responsible for for members of their cohort uh their death or their illness right so I could have done something I could have done something different um in the case of Mr Freeze yes he has particularly you know blameful thoughts about what happened but he's actually accurate he's right that Ferris Bole is responsible for the death of his wife right another question I would ask is did he understand his own grief and his ability to express emotions um you know what does that mean is he understanding what's occurring with him emotionally how does he you know how does he reflect on his ability to adjust following the death of his wife um did he have healthy attachments with someone or some people that actually care about him he doesn't really appear to he sort of appears to be a loner after yeah it's unclear but my understanding is that you know nor was all he had yeah I don't think he had friends or family or colleagues that that he could confide in and get social support from um and that's another question I would ask did he feel socially supported one of the strongest predictors of whether someone will develop PTSD after a loss is whether they have strong social support that is a huge huge factor in more I would say in in normal adjustment and recovery after a traumatic stress right another thing I would ask is did he develop an ongoing positive connection with the person who died so like the talking to his snow globe yeah I mean one would say that that could be a positive Connection in the sense that he's um you know remembering and reminiscing about good things um but he doesn't put the snow globe down right so he has this um almost uh fixation and uh rumination and again that feeling of betrayal and anger toward her death and so that's that's not so much a positive connection and finally very importantly did he fit the death into a useful view of the world um when I say useful I mean did he develop a set of beliefs about the world that will help him recover develop new adaptive relationships and build trust about relationships no right right I would say the majority of these questions would be um you know the response would be no either those things didn't happen those things were undermined um you know those that actually would increase the likelihood of being distressed and potentially developing PTSD okay but when you say PTSD most people think of I don't know returning veterans um people flashbacks nightmares they jump When someone knocks over a trash can Mr Freeze seems for lack of a better word cool to anything like this uh unfazed what would you say signs of PTSD would look like for someone like him well he's you know I agree with you that kind of the classic um representation of PTSD is different than what we see with him but I I think what we see um that is a common uh symptom of PTSD is is that sort of emotion management that's that's kind of gone wrong right so that numbness or uh lack of Express iive um abilities to to show emotion um that's actually quite common with some people that have a post-traumatic stress response in that not only do they kind of um have lack of affect or their facial expressions seem emotionless but also they have difficulty um you know accessing their emotions they have difficulty talking about their emotions when you ask how they feel that they will respond with I feel nothing or don't know I don't have the ability to feel and that's what he says quite a bit you know even in this episode when he describes his emotional state the other thing that people experience with PTSD are negative cognitions or distorted cognitions and this is actually outlined in the DSM we've talked about the DSM before right that that big big book yeah it's the the big Manual of psychological disorders if you will and every few years they actually update the book um luckily you know thankfully based on the um the research in literature that that has new findings and new explanations of mental health disorders and so the criteria or the list of symptoms um that you you know you are required to to meet to to get a diagnosis could change um you know over the years and with PTSD something that actually has changed in this newer version the dsm5 includes a um more information about cognitive States or cognitive beliefs um following a traumatic stressor so for instance just an example a new item in the dsm5 under PTSD is persistent distorted blame of self or others for causing the traumatic event or for resulting consequences I mean that sounds like him right this this blaming um blames Bole blames himself a little bit the the ey should have protected you kind of yeah and you know what's always been in the in the U criteria is the persistent and often distorted negative belief and expectations about the self and the world so examples would be um beliefs like I am bad the world is completely dangerous for him you know they would be things like I cannot trust other people the one person I loved was taken away from me right I deserve love but I cannot have it so you know when when those beliefs are unreconciled and unchallenged those thoughts continue to kind of like permeate in his in his mind and and it causes him distress Because he believes in those things very strongly and he sees his world that way he does have an interesting take on it though uh he is certainly going after Ferris boil for Revenge um he feels very cold when his henchmen has his legs Frozen um he he sort of doesn't feel like he owes that person anything in fact it's is it's his own fault for for getting in the way he should have been more careful now he's paid the price for his incompetence but he allows Batman the opportunity to get out Scott free this is a personal Vendetta it doesn't concern you he's basically like look I won't hurt you Batman I I've got no beef with you I'm going after this other person so he has no emotion toward other people whereas he's got hatred for others um but then there are some that he's just sort of willing to bypass entirely you know like I've got I got nothing he has a mission I mean he even says you know if if you get in my way I will consider you an enemy right so um you know again he he seems to have developed this this need to get um Revenge by um you know attacking and and possibly I mean my understanding is he wants to freeze Ferris Bole to the degree that he's um you know Frozen he's incapacitated potentially brain dead right he wants boil to experience what his wife experienced he wants start he wants to start from his feet and very slowly work his way up the body you know there is a point time where he starts to freeze him he gets about Midway but he's he's not doing it as quickly as he is other people like other people their legs are instantly Frozen Mr free seems to be taking his time well he's torturing him and and they also have a an interesting dialogue there where you know Bole is is begging for him to stop and and Mr Freeze explains that no you have to experience what my wife did you know I'm I uh I think that that's a very intense moment and he's finally he's fulfilling this wish that he's had for a very long time um so it's it's really meaningful for him to see this man suffer I mean it's very sad too because it it it's just sort of he's playing out and reenacting what happened to his wife kind of makes you wonder though if he did it like if he succeeded where would he go from there like Mr Freeze doesn't really seem to have any resentment or hatred toward anyone else it almost makes you wonder if you if Batman had just let him take out Ferris Bole who Batman knows as a villain as well he he hears or he sees the videotape he sees the accident happen he knows Ferris Bole is a bad person right um it's almost like if Batman were any other vigilante and allowed Victor to to freeze him I I wonder what Victor would have like how he would have been emotionally after that like would he have been fulfilled mhm I you know it's possible that he he would stop um you know being fixated on getting revenge um maybe his life of crime would be over MH he would just go on sure living alone doing whatever that wouldn't take away his his feelings of sadness and loneliness I mean think about think about soldiers too who you know if um if they feel that you know the government for instance is responsible for their friend's death and they went and you know attacked this sounds like an episode of um Homeland like they they go and attack a member of of the government um and murder them let's say they would still have feelings of um you know sadness and guilt and loss and and you know we can talk about treatment later but a lot of the a lot of what needs to happen for Mr Freeze is having a more healthy reconciliation and understanding of the loss of his wife and you know murdering uh Ferris Bole isn't going to do it so interestingly some more um symptoms from PTSD criteria that do look like Mr Freeze are constricted affect which which means sort of this inability to experience or Express positive emotions which we kind of see with him and a newly added item for PTSD is um something called trauma related alterations and arousal that worsen after the traumatic event this would be things like self-destructive Behavior Reckless Behavior and we kind of see you know at the end of this episode that uh Mr Freeze does he's he can be particularly violent and Reckless you know on his way to seeking um seeking Revenge with uh with Ferris so it sounds like you're leaning toward a PTSD approach to Mr Freeze yes and and mainly because prior to those series of traumatic events he was for the best of our ability to understand um a fairly adaptive healthy scientist who yes was um struggling with keeping his wife alive but seem to have his um you know his profession his social life things things together um so that's what that's the direction I would go in now interestingly again in this new iteration of the DSM there is a a new category that was created out of um out of some literature showing that some people do experience a number of things following the death of a of a loved one and um it's almost like this idea of dysfunctional grief so you know you've you've heard those stages of grief following loss um that that people experience and and those are actually considered normal um expected stages following hearing um bad news usually that that lead to loss or death right um but there's also this idea of dysfunctional grief or the lack of the ability to kind of recover after a loss or after the death of a loved one and typically that would be um you know after many months if not years researchers who have brought up this this new category which is actually called persistent complex bereavement disorder um believe that the person is kind of derailed or they even say Frozen in their grief isn't that interesting oh yeah um what's also interesting is that the um you know the psychologist has to ascertain that at least 12 months have pass since the um the death of the of a loved one that this person is grieving over and what do we know about Mr frieza's accident and L his wife it happened exactly a year ago so that alignment is is interesting to me so basically researchers watched Heart of Ice and uh and then wrote a new grief stage just based on that just based on this episode so we mentioned it earlier let's talk about this snow globe uh that freeze carries around a little bit it it he carries it around constantly he's talking to it as if it's Nora um it's a ballerina that Twirls around inside this uh Dome with snow and Victor says this is how I'll always remember your surrounded by winter forever young forever beautiful now this is might be a little morbid and I don't know if you necessarily agree but to me this sort of suggests to me that he prefers to remember her as uh cryogenically frozen in this tube I mean the the Dome that she's in looks very similar to the tube it's snowing inside so clearly it's cold um what about you I think it's you know well I do want to say that having some kind kind of um object or token to remember someone by that's certainly normal and and that actually could help the grieving process um what he's doing is interesting because as you said he's kind of remembering her in a weird State um he's not really remembering her in a way that he's valuing you know her personality her attributes her characteristics how he felt when he was with her you know there's this weird kind of attached way that he's just fixated on this little little kind of mini fig you know this little figure of her and it's just unrealistic he's also seems to be fixated on the idea of saving her like he doesn't like to remember her as being healthy he likes to remember her as someone in this glass tube that has hope that he will come up with a cure for whatever right the ailment is or that at least the cryogenics that he is so in love with um keep her maintained until a cure is found cuz he never actually talks about wanting to find the Cure himself he just talks about I want to have her Frozen until someone does come over with the Cure so I don't know it it it's almost like he's more in love with the idea of his science than his wife right and and I would even say that um his vision or his illusion of connectedness and love might not be particularly healthy right you know like I don't I think what happened to him tragically now fragmented his perception of a bond and and now that you know that definition or that feeling of what a bond with another person is is sort of like you said this like kind of simplistic um really objectifying kind of strange um relationship and um you know it's and again he's he's just constantly fixated on it and it continues to fuel his anger and his you know hatred so it does serve a function carrying that around serves a function to fuel those negative emotions in him so it's not necessarily emotionally healthy to have something like this that's a constant reminder well in his case he's again it it's not being used for something that I would consider adaptive right um at the end of the episode uh both villains get their come upins Batman provides evidence of Bo's crime to the media uh freeze is taken to Arkham Asylum after his the glass Dome that covers his head is Shattered by Batman's hot chicken soup well right says Batman has a coal through episode yeah so Alfred makes him soup and puts it in a little thermos yeah and uh he he like takes it out of his um I don't know where he's carrying that cuz it's a sizable um sizable and but but Batman is able to hide it just as Alfred was able to pull it out of his inside jacket C pocket in the Batcave so apparently it's it's a collapsible thermos um but it Cur so it's funny because he breaks it over um Mr frieza's you know he doesn't even break it though he opens it and pours it and the hot the hot liquid I guess mixed with the cold makes the glass brittle or something it shatters I don't know it does something that Batman's fist couldn't even do um Mr Freeze ends up getting taken to Arkham Asylum now for starters Drea is Arkham where you would send a guy like Victor freeze is he quote unquote criminally insane you know I don't like that that word um or that term but you know it's it's us used for for Arkham Asylum because the people that need to be in Arkham Asylum if they weren't there would engage in crime right right so they have to be there but um the way that I would approach it is that again he has this um inability to recover after this trauma after this loss and death of someone very close to him so putting him you know in a prison is not going to help him he will continue to ruminate about it and feel those negative em itions and not reconcile and find new meaning around what happened one could argue that he's charged for the crimes but he could still have a mental disorder and yes in you know in prison you could be receiving psychiatric uh treatment depending on where you are it may not be great right but realistically yes that's what would happen to him he would be institutionalized he would be in a prison and he would be getting psychiatric help in that prison that's what would be offered to him if he's exhibiting those symptoms of you know numbness depression um you know continuing to ruminate about wanting revenge and so forth they would probably provide him with with treatment there um and of course as we all know like well if you read the comics we know that he's in Arkham Asylum not necessarily because he's quote unquote insane but because it's the only facility that has the ability to provide him with the sub zero degree cell that he needs in order to survive I don't know why they've got a refrigerated cell or why it's got a window I know that's a weird um thing at the end of the episode where we actually see him it's not weird in the sense that of course he's holding the you know the snow globe with with Nora uh yeah they let him have the snow globe like of course they did he could shatter that thing and he could cut himself or he could he's not going to though because they know that that's you know the Last Remnant of his wife but what's interesting is that he's outside of his suit you know like he's he's able to breathe and and he has the sense of freedom but it doesn't seem to be um enough you know he's he's the suit doesn't make him Mr Freeze right he's still very saddened um feeling very alone and feeling the sense of loss um and you're right there's a big old window there so I don't know how they're uh how they can afford to uh keep that that little space yeah in the Subzero environment because uh there's that open window and all of that energy is leaving the room yeah and then there's Batman on on a Ledge watching him creepily always always creepily watching so how would you go about treating freeze now that he is in custody he's in this cell he's got nothing better to do than to undergo treatment well it's interesting because as we talked about what's keeping him in this state of um emotional numbness and distress so it's it's sort of this interesting juxtaposition right he has um he has the inability to express positive emotion but he also has these deep-seated negative feelings of anger and and resentment we have to offer him the opportunity to resolve and reconcile this loss we can't change what happened right three terrible things happened so we would have this acceptance these three these three traumatic events happened let's define them understand them um we have to understand the loss of control or the inability to change the past and finally we would want to help him create a new meaning around the loss and death of his wife and the things that happened to him so it would be very difficult of course it would be very challenging to do but we would um we would explore with him how he might have um built resilience from this what what story can come from this that is a story of strength a story of empowerment um a story of great love and how can he move on and transition from that story so it's both understanding the story but sort of leaving it processing it and leaving it in the past and the ability to move on and develop new relationships while still respecting and valuing the relationship that he had does that make sense yeah so as always I like to look at real life and apply a little of it to what we've seen in Batman the Animated Series um this week I present to you freeze Rays chill out uh Drea it turns out freeze rays are actually possible what Victor freeze is using possible so this story is completely accurate yeah it's it's it's really kind of scary to think about um in an article I read uh from Popular Science from 2009 I learned that German scientists have been able to turn pressurized gas into ice by using lasers they were basically able to knock electrons out of their orbits which obviously cools everything down and the result is their ability to freeze this pressurized gas before it could even become liquid so from gas to solid ice almost instantaneously they talk about using this for boring stuff like better Refrigeration um but frankly all I can Envision is is freezing death ray technology wow um so that's it for this episode how do you feel Frozen next week's a slightly lighter episode with uh the cat and the claw part one yeah you can you know what that means you can only imagine and another two-parter so cool sweet Dre what have you got to plug well this week um if folks are interested in learning more about my feelings on Mr Freeze in addition to some other DC Villains there's actually a documentary called necessary evil super villains of DC Comics and that was um released by Warner Brothers in DC Comics last fall yeah uh and so a number of different artists writers um you know producers Bunch deem very very creative folks including Pauli um and actually myself uh are um make appearances in uh in that documentary so you can actually get it uh on Amazon you can also get it on and pretty much anywhere else that uh home media can be found yes Best Buys and targets and all of that yeah some cool stuff there cool so uh Drea how can folks contact you they can contact me on Twitter at Arkham Asylum doc or on my website underthe mask online.com you can contact me on Twitter I am at b028 you can also email the show if you have any questions comments um praise complaints praise more praise we are Arkham sessions gmail.com you can also like us on Facebook just look up the Arkham sessions there and we can haunt you in your dreams that's right that's that's a different episode but we can absolutely do that uh till next next week guys I'm Brian Ward I'm Dr Andrea lendi we are the Arkham sessions [Music]