Transcript for:
Two Messiahs in Jewish and Christian Thought

[Music] [Music] Heat. Heat. [Music] [Music] Heat up [Music] here. [Music] [Music] Hello. I didn't know that my face would be the first that everyone saw. Well, I I just came to it as as or clicked it as I came to it. So, welcome. Welcome everyone to another Biblical Lenses conversation. Um, we've got a a really special one planned tonight. I I love this topic in particular. Uh, that doesn't mean I'm particularly well educated on it, but I do love discussing it. Um, we'll be discussing uh the concept of the dual messianic office or the two messiahs. Um, with us today we have some very special guests uh returning from Orthodox Christianity, our friend Joshua. Hello. How are you this evening, sir? I'm doing well. How are you? Doing well. Doing well. It's always a joy to have you. I'm I'm It's honestly we need to talk more than we do, man. Yeah. Uh, and then also when we started to do the podcast or or pitching this just for the audience, um, Josh couldn't fully commit, like he's obviously busy, has a lot going on. He goes, "If it's a topic I'm really interested, what we do is I put a poll up of like three or four topics and he's like, "This one sounds interesting." All right, that's it. It works. The secret's out. All right. And then also joining us today is uh a different Will what's up guys? Shalom. Shalom. Shalom. Shalom. All right. So doing all right this man. Before we get into this, we do have a few things to to do. First and foremost Oh, and uh don't forget to bless that like button and believe in the subscribe button. So, you heard it from Sheamus, our our vice president. Um, and then next, I I I do have to get this out of the way. So, Will Walke is obviously not his actual name. He's a big fan of Milwaukee Tools. Um, so Will, did you happen to notice the Easter egg in the um the thumbnail? Uh, no. It's in Milwaukee red, bro. No, his name is in DeWalt yellow. Oh, for the Messiah is in Milwaukee Red, right? See, Jeremy, that's blasphemy. Um, you know, on my channel, I promote the idea that Jesus actually used Milwaukee power tools because of the red heer, how the text uh what is red. Um, we we see Jesus's words in red, right? The the Bible authors thought it was very important to stop writing in black ink and switch to the red pen. Uh, so you just committed blasphemy. I will pray for you, though. Um, yeah. Uh, thank I do appreciate the prayers. I do. All right. And then, um, obviously like and subscribe. Check out the store. We've got lots of fun stuff um for all of our alternate media podcasts. We've got Brad's drink there is uh for Brad Rants. I've got my renovating faith cup tonight. Uh Brad, what are you drinking? Um an oldfashioned old fashion. Oh, I'm jealous. Yes, I am sampling and attempting this. Um, so I'm about to take a vacation and get to spend some time with our president and so I picked up a bottle of something that I I enjoy and um but it I knew it wasn't going to be enough because I've had that bottle before and it's not very strong. I drank half of it in one night one time. So I wanted something cheap and so this is um Tenh High Sour Mash by America's Native Spirit or No, it's Ten High is the brand, but it's just basically a Kentucky bourbon, but it was a $7 bottle. So That's like rockut bourbon, man. Well, here's the thing. Like, usually when I want cheap, I I'll pick up like Evan Williams, but I just I've tried it two or three times and I don't like it. Yeah. But I need like that cheap option once in a while and I was like, you know what, this it sounds good. And I did take like one shot of it the other night and I was like, wow, that for seven, eight bucks, that's not bad. So, one of the best cheap options I've found is called Jesse James Outlaw. Dude, I cannot find it out here. It's It like for the price, it's so good. But be that as it may, uh Joshua and Will, are either of you uh sampling anything tonight? Uh my kids Gatorade. That works. Yeah, I've got sweet tea on. There we go. We got a a local uh honey logger here from Colorado. Hey. Yeah, I like it. It's not not quite the the liquor you guys are doing, but uh you know, looks like we have an error on our Facebook. Figure out what's going with that. Yeah, something's blocking it. Find us on YouTube. Hopefully, we'll get a few commenters here and there. Okay, so two messiahs. This is going to be a fun conversation. I'm excited. Um we do have a few resources. We'll get to that in a little bit. Um but will do you want to kick off kind of what you shared in the chat? Let's kind of get started with that. I think uh yeah um you know so um uh when when we talk about like the concept of Messiah, it's really interesting because we really don't see a a pure grounding of um of a Messiah figure, you know. Now I'm not saying that there's not or anything else like that. We see a lot of typology. A lot of rabbis have noted a lot of things and stuff like that um directly. But we don't see something in the absolute sense really until the book of Daniel chapter 7 where you know when he sees the vision he sees the ancient of days obviously that would be Hashem sitting on his throne. And then as we I think that's like verse 9. And then if we keep reading to I think it's like verse 13 talks about one a son of man coming on the clouds. um this whole cloud motif idea and he is presented before the ancient of days you know all dominion is given to him it's his kingdom he receives worship um now that is really the whole messiah thing um that we see and I think a lot of the rabbis and sages have noted that and then we see as we will go discussing on forward um stuff from the Talmud and the Midrash where more typology is brought up where they can see a lot of the uh comparisons. Uh can I actually read? Is it okay if I read the one miz I have? So I mean you can are you're allowed. Are you able to read? I read um super good. Nice. Yes. So now this Yeah. So this is from the Midrash Rabba. And now this is um from Ecclesiastes. This is what it says. Uh, Rabbi uh, Behira said to Rabbi Itsak, "Like the first redeemer, Moses was, so will the final redeemer, the Messiah, be," which we would all agree that would be Yeshua. Right? Um, just as regarding the first redeemer, it is stated Moses took his wife and his sons and mounted them on the donkey. Right? Exodus 4:20. So does it say the final redeemer as it's stated a humble man riding upon a donkey which is quoting Zechariah 9:9. Now that's huge and a lot of Christians should be very familiar with that because of uh Palm Sunday, right? We see in Matthew 21 and John 12 where those two writers also draw the same conclusion that just as Yeshua mounted himself on the donkey as it's also presented in Zechariah. Now, it does get tricky because it doesn't say in Zechariah 9:9 that when the Messiah comes, the Messiah will ride upon the donkey, everything like that. But it's how the words are that the rabbis, sages, and the elders over time have looked at that scripture and come to that conclusion. So, that's just kind of what I wanted to bring up. Yeah. I And I think it's important really to to explore just the the what you said earlier about the the Torah, right? The five books of Moses. This is the reason that the Sadducees actually didn't believe in a messiah is because it's not something that is directly explicitly stated in the Torah. Right? So the Sadducees didn't believe it. The the Pharisees did because they they look deeper uh than the surface level reading of of all things. And for most of our audience will will know this, but for the those that don't, the Sadducees didn't accept anything beyond the five books of Moses. Um whereas the Pharisees accepted all of the Old Testament plus the oral tradition and oral Torah. Um the the Sadducees were strictly the Penetuk. So this conversation for me and one of the reasons I love it for this show for the for the lens aspect is it cleared up some things for me before I even became Torah observant. And that is one you know I heard all this stuff of people said well Jesus fulfilled it all. when he said, "It is finished." He had fulfilled all of the Old Testament. And I'm like reading the Old Testament. I'm like, "No, he didn't. There's not at that time much still." Yeah. Not at waiting for a lot of that. Yeah. And so then, you know, um, you know, praise God, I came to find alternate media and I learned about this concept and the more you guys talked about it, the more I was like, that makes a lot more sense of the biblical data. And of course, keep in mind, I had never heard any rabbitical quotes at this point. This is strictly from me reading Old and New Testament that I'm seeing this issue. And so, you started explaining this concept, you Brad, you and Sheamus. And I was like, wow, this is one, it's fascinating. I actually got to explain it to someone a couple days ago, just like intro to two messiahs, and I was like, this just makes so much sense. And it really drives home the message of Matthew 5 for me where he said, you know, heaven, you know, not one stroke will pass away until all things are fulfilled. I'm like, it's not all fulfilled yet. Um, so that was kind of my introduction to this concept. Uh, and and so, you know, in our behind thes scenes chat, Sherman was also very very interested and you've been um reading a book on it. Yeah. Been reading a different book on it. And so Josh, why don't you I mean, it's probably better that we're not all reading the same book because then it's kind of like, hey, let me go to this page. Um, yeah, I've been reading uh Messiah Joseph. This is by David C. Mitchell. Um, he, um, does have a, you know, a relevant PhD, but he basically he did a PhD. I want to say it was in biblical studies, and then he started looking around like what he was going to do for for work after that and ended up uh, basically leading uh, music for churches. Um, so he's done a lot of stuff in the Psalms. He's he's really focused into a lot of that material. Um, and this book is really great because it goes into um, oh, just a wide range of material that touches on this topic. Uh, so his argument and so this is where, you know, maybe we'll have a little bit of of back and forth on this. His argument is actually that that there are bits and pieces that you can start to see that that do um have the seeds of this idea in Genesis, in Deuteronomy, uh in the prophets, in the Psalms. Um and then carrying that forward obviously into the New Testament. Um and um he looks at works of church fathers, he looks at the Tarums, he looks at the Talmud, he looks at the you know um all kinds of of Jewish writings. And so um and some of them are, you know, pseudopagraphical. So they're they're a lot of them are actually before Jesus showed up. Um some of them are um significantly after and so we even get into some you know medieval kind of you know time things. So so it's very interesting because he he pulls together so much data um from a lot of different things over a wide span of time and then you kind of have to kind of walk the path with him on like okay how does this connect and some of those ideas are are different. So you get some things even within the same writing um that will have different ideas about who Messiah Ben Joseph is, about what's going to happen to him, about what he's going to do, whether he's going to be killed or not, whether he's going to conquer the nations or not. Like all kinds of stuff is going on here. Uh so it becomes a really interesting rabbit trail to chase down. And then it also gets into the interesting territory when you say okay um you know do we have two messiahs here or are there two patterns that end up getting fulfilled in the same messiah and how do we see that play out in history? Are we still waiting for some of that to happen? So there's there's a whole bunch of different questions people ask when they start to get into this. And um I I did post a link to that in the chat. We'll put it in the in the actual description, too, because I think the chat's being a little weird with the link length. Um, and then I've been reading uh The Exile Messiah by Rabbi Elijah Pinas and um I probably mispronounced that which is an incredible rabbitic source on the two messiahs. Um, highly highly recommend it. It's full of quotes, full of scripture, rabbitic quotes, and and even stuff from the New Testament on it. Um, so can't recommend that highly enough. It be really interesting to look at the the bibliographies and see like, oh, did they miss one, you know? Yeah, there's there's so much. It's Well, I'm adding I'm gonna add hers to my Amazon list. My wife has banned me from buying more books until I actually read some of the ones that I have. Um, but I have an ever growing list. Um, and then we also have I will link drop this one and it'll also be linked. We have an article written by Joshua Perez on the two messiahs, one of our alternate media partners and that is there. Um, so highly encourage you to read that. Um, Ronan Torah dropped a comment. Um, I also think he he shall be called a notarim in Matthew is a play on Genesis 49, not just the branch in Yoseph's blessing. Um, we have an article hasn't gone live yet. I think we have to verify that all the edits are done, but written by our producer Austin, that is phenomenal on that exact quote. Um, I'm not saying you're wrong. I actually would want to look into that. I'm very curious. Um, but Austin's article, uh, I think was was just stellar on what that prophecy is. Um, so that'll be coming up shortly uh once we get all of our our um that that is a really interesting thematic connection because you do get connections between both the expectations of Yeah, it's been a while since I've read the article. I just remember I loved the article. So um but definitely check out uh the two messiahs by Joshua Perez and um Messiah Ben Joseph as well as the exile messiah. Now that said, Brad, we've said two messiahs and all of this stuff, but we haven't actually stated who they are. Could you give us a brief breakdown? Who are the two messiahs? What are their expected roles, etc.? Right. So, and this is something that uh Joshua Perez explains very well right at the right out the gate in his article, um is the distinctive roles between the two messianic offices. Um, and one of the ways that I love to kind of get this conversation going, because I do think that the New Testament does allude to this belief, um, in in more ways than one, but one of my favorites to reference is actually from Matthew 11, uh, specifically verse three. Now, this is where John the Baptist has sent his disciples to Yeshua to ask him, right, is it you who we're looking for, or do we wait for another? And I every sermon I've ever heard preached on this uh treats it as though John is having a crisis of faith because he's depressed in prison. It's like you messiah or not is the way people usually pose it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Are you Messiah or not? And it's like well this is John the Baptist. This is the the one who leapt in the womb at 6 months. This is the one who pointed him out in a crowd and was like that's the lamb of God. you know, like th this is not somebody who's just depressed in prison and having a crisis of faith. I think the question is much more specific than that. Um, and given that there is some evidence which would suggest that maybe he came out of the Kuman community um or had spent some time with the Essins uh that he was probably familiar with this belief, right? That there would be uh two messianic arrivals. Now whether or not they're one person or two people generally the idea would be that they were two separate people uh probably especially in John's day um there would be the Messiah Ben Joseph or the Messiah son of Joseph and then Messiah Ben David Messiah the son of David. Um, and those two are there are some thoughts that would suggest that they are both referencing a point of birth, right? That they are literal. Um, but more than that, they are understood to be uh typological titles. So the the the title of son of David, the title of son of Joseph carried specific connotations as to the duties of that messiah, as to what what that messiah would fulfill. Um, and this is really where I I think Christianity and Judaism tend to talk past one another when they talk about the subject of of Messiah because in Christianity, you know, we say uh the Messiah a lot, right? Well, when you add the article the, it makes it very specific. And to a Jew, that means the son of David, right? Now, the son of David would be the one who would return and uh bring back in the 10 lost tribes, would restore Israel to her former glory, liberate her from her oppressors, and rule the world, you know, with an iron fist, so to speak, or with an iron rod, I think Revelation says. Um, and these things have not happened, right? So I we all understand here that we're waiting. We're anticipating those things to happen, but they're they they haven't happened yet. And these are things that I I like to remind people that both Judaism and Christianity are waiting on the same messianic arrival at this point. The the the struggle is that during times of oppression, Israel has always been waiting for the son of David, right? Especially during times of oppression. Um whereas the son of Joseph is is a little different and the son of Joseph is something that's not even as directly alluded to throughout the prophets. And this is an interesting conversation to have with Orthodox Jews because you know they they will accept that the son of David is is more directly alluded to in the prophets. I know that the the most direct is the one that will referenced in Daniel, but there are others throughout Isaiah and throughout the rest of the prophets that, you know, make some illusion to the messianic office. Um, but the role of the son of Joseph is much less, right? It it's something that really has to be inferred uh in into one's understanding of the text. And uh what is inferred is that he would be one who would um it in the broadest sense just to give it a very brief runover. He would lead Israel in a fight against their enemies, would ultimately die uh as a result of that struggle and his death would bring about mass repentance and then the son of David would come and ultimately avenge his death and you know that whole process would uh would begin. So that that's that's kind of like the most generic runover. And that's where in in those broad terms there there's argumentation as to whether or not this really fits Yeshua. Does it not fit Yeshua? And I' I've had conversations where it's it's positioned in a way where it's like, well, no, but it has to it would have to have come about this way. And my thought is like, well, I mean, no, because we've both already agreed that really the entire the entire concept has to be inferred from the prophets. So, if it has to be inferred, then we can't be insistent about any specifics on how that's going to come about. Yeah. Right. You you can't hardline and say this is how it has to happen, right? Because it's we're really inferring the entire concept from the ground up. Uh so if there you know if there's any possible way that that can fit within the contextual frame of the prophets and of the culture of the time then really it fits and there's no reason to say that it doesn't unless there's something that like drastically violates a principle of scripture. Um so I I think that's maybe a good point to start off. Um, one thing one thing that you and Sheamus mentioned when when I was first introduced to this was that if we could do like a subtitle for each position, it would be that um, and I got to speak up a little. So the guys pointed out my microphone is actually not working today and we're having Streamyard issues with that. So it's an expensive prop at this point, right? So is that Messiah Ben Joseph is the suffering servant. Messiah Ben David is the conquering king. Okay. And and and if we can summarize those offices and we look at at exactly what what happened 2,000 years ago and what is going to happen, um you can really look through the Old Testament and see these different prophecies, see read rabbitic literature on the two and you can you can see a portrait of Yeshua in the suffering servant. Um and I absolutely love that because there's so much there. And Brad, you even referenced a war that he would fight a war. And I think it was Sheamus who said if he had been born 20 years earlier or 20 years later, he would not have been crucified just based on the state of of Israel at the time, right? Let's look at the war that he fought. You had the Sadducees who were running the temple, who were bought and paid for by Rome, who didn't want a Messiah at all. You had the Pharisee party who was run by the school of Shamai. That is largely the reason for the destruction. Like if you you attribute the destruction of the temple to baseless hatred, the Jews pinned that on the school of Shmai, right? Um and and my understanding is at at the at Yabna when when the Sanhedrin reconvened, they declared that heresy. Like you can only teach his his um stances as a point of historical fact. The whole religion shifted at the destruction of the temple to Pharisee Judaism under the school of hell, which is exactly what Yeshua taught. like he fought a war and was killed for his stance religiously, which is absolutely fascinating to me. Right. It it's so that's an interesting point and and I I I wish that I had I know we were going to go over this particular point because I I have direct citations that I have used in discourse to make this argument. Um because it's always treated as though it's going to be an actual, you know, full-scale war, actual combat, actual battles. Um, you know, the most literal sense of war. uh which again like it could be um but since the role that we're talking about is one that's already inferred uh I I I don't think that it is without cause that we just accept that precedence that the majority of of this role would be something that is also uh more ideological and maybe even symbolic in in how it is manifested. Yeah. So, well, and let's look at our our last conversation that we had a couple months ago on the atonement. And what did we say should be the dominant view of the atonement for followers of Christ? Because so often it it's PSA, but we determined it should be what? Chris Victor, right? Christ being anointed one, which is a a Greek translation of Messiah. So, the anointed one or Messiah, the victor, the victor of which is I mean like that's literally what this says. It says you know it's Jesus Christ conquers. Yeah. Right. Um so it's it's one of those things where uh you know because the idea is that he would be fighting actual battles and then he would be killed in one such battle. And it's the the focus is always this idea because it's the premise is that he would be fighting Israel's enemies. And so that frame is always presented in the way of like an external enemy, something from outside of Israel. Um, and naturally that that would fit the the frame of mind of a people who are under oppression for sure. But an external enemy is not the only kind of enemy, right? And uh physical warfare uh is not the only kind of warfare. Mhm. And you know, we we even have have examples in the Torah itself of internal enemies, right? You you have the the rebellion of Kora. You you have, you know, that where there were Israelites from within Israel that were problematic, right, and had to be dealt with internal. Um and if we if we start from that point and then we move forward to the the struggles between Beth Shimai and Beth Hillel. One thing we find in Telmodic literature is that uh there is an instance where uh essentially there the the the usurppation occurred where a vote was going to be forced at point of the sword in favor of Shemi. Right? And uh what the Jerusalem Talmud in particular tells us is that uh the students of Shmai had killed the students of Hel right with at the point of the sword. Now there's there's ideas that that may be parabolic speak you know for something else. Um but there's no reason not to take it literally and I don't I don't think that anybody really contests that it can be taken literally. And if that's the case and we know that Hashem later on favored the view of Hel, then that would make those students of Shmi internal enemies, right? That that makes them internal enemies. Which means that if conflict with B Shmai is what ultimately uh led to Yeshua's death, then he died fighting the enemies of Israel. It just wasn't an external enemy. Correct. We think about that, you know, even in America, we talk about enemies, foreign and domestic. Um, there always are. And and you know, in Christianity, we talk about church hurt. That there's no no hurt like church hurt. When when somebody in the church does something um that hurts you so deeply and sometimes it that's the cause of a lot of deconstruction, right? is this separating because of what happens inside. It's not the enemy attacking from the outside that causes the most pain and harm. It it's the inside. The most hurtful people are often the people that you should be able to trust the most. Um and so yeah, I'm glad you pointed that out. Right. So it gets interesting too because we have even within like I said within the same writings you have ideas that are much more kind of earthbound if you will about the conflict and much more cosmic. So um you have within Pika Robati this these multiple ideas and and they're actually multiple other writings too here um that talk about um the the Messiah that's basically like a a war messiah. he's anointed for war, right? And you go, "Oh, like that sounds very like literal, very very bloody, very hands-on." You have ideas about him um conquering Gog um and putting the nations kind of under his thumb. And then you have earlier in particular Robata, you have you have this part where you have um this very cosmic kind of way of talking about it. So um you have um literally Satan coming before the throne of of the holy one and he says master of the universe for whom is the is the light which is put away under your throne. He replied for him who will turn your back and put you to utter shame. Satan said master of the universe show him to me. And he replied come and see him. And when he saw him, Satan was shaken and he fell upon his face and said, "Surely this Messiah, this is Messiah who will cause me and all the princes of the nations to be swallowed up in Gehenna. as it is said, he will swallow up death forever and the Lord God will wipe away the tears from all faces. So you have like that idea, right? And then connected to that this idea of even atonement for sin and bearing of sins. Yep. Um, and this is where it it just gets really interesting and complicated because you you do have on some level this this idea of the dying and and rising Messiah, the one who suffers, the one who atones for sin. And then you also have the one who reigns, right? And the one who goes out to war. And um for a lot of people these were two different ideas to the point where um Ramban when he was in the the Barcelona disputation basically kind of with a straight with a straight face he basically says you know like there's nothing in any of our writings at all that talks about Messiah Ben Davidid die right um he full well knew a lot of this stuff about Messiah Ben Joseph and he of course didn't bring that to the table. Um, so again, just lots of different ideas and the connectivity of of these potentially in one person is is part of a very interesting discussion I think that can be had with people that are very much still putting Yeshua at at a distance. Yeah. I I think there's something else to consider too with the idea with the idea of like the warfare itself being nonliteral um in terms of the office of the son of Joseph. You know, if we're going to look at at the typology of Joseph and I think that that's where we can probably have the the most interesting conversation around this is is within the typologies uh and even comparing the typologies, right? David was the one who is the actual warrior, not Joseph. Right? David is the one who actually did physical combat. Joseph was nonetheless a conqueror. Right? One of one of the one of the uh views that I've I've heard expressed um is that uh the the the time frame of Joseph may have possibly taken place during the like the Hixos Empire in Egypt. Right. And at this point, Egypt was not one united kingdom, so to speak. But, uh, Joseph did the kingdom. He did he did bring rulership of all of Egypt under this one Pharaoh. And he did so without actual physical combat. Right? Uh I and I I I think that if we're really going to look at the typologies, it would make more sense for the son of Joseph to to be within the frame of that typology to be somebody who is a conqueror but not in physical warfare. Yeah. You know, I I I just I I think that fits better, which is is interesting because then you kind you kind of get a split, right? So on the one hand, you have that idea and you have all the typology that connects Egypt into the ideas about death and shale and going down to Egypt and all of that. And it's it's hard not to see Joseph being sold for silver and thrown in a pit and and all of those details and go like, gee, that sounds familiar. Um and and and looking at that as as a as a physical typology of a cosmic reality to come in Yeshua. Um, but then you also end up having this play out in a descendant of Joseph in uh Joshua, son of Nun, right, who is part of conquering the promised land. Um, and and actually is a warrior. Uh, and so there are places in some of these writings where it's pretty clear that there they can't be referring to Joseph because you you'll have something where it's like this is the blessing given to Joseph and you're like, well, yeah, but also like it has to be future tense the way that it's spoken of. And then you think, okay, could this apply to this this descendant of him that kind of fits this picture, right? Well, to some extent, yes, because you have Joshua being a great warrior, but you don't have him subjugating the nations the way that you kind of have this expectation of of the Josephite Messiah in some of these things and then Messiah Bended in others and you know like um and that's where it it gets kind of interesting because you do have slightly different pictures of kind of trying to understand what's going on. Yeah. Right. Right. And you know, one thing that I've I've always enjoyed exploring are actually the the similarities in the typologies between David and Joseph, right? Just the similarities of narrative that that we really don't see because one story actually focuses more on one aspect than the other, right? So for for the narrative of Joseph, the the majority of the narrative is him and his struggle with his brothers, right? The animosity between his brothers. Um, and then him being a suffering servant. That's like the overwhelming majority of the story of David. And then we get this little bit at the end where he's like a conqueror and, you know, he's he's, you know, ruler over Egypt, uh, and whatnot. Whereas with David, we actually get the flip side. But what they have in common is that they're they're both the least among their brothers. They're both the least thought of among their brothers, right? Uh, but that's this little that's this little highlight at the beginning of David's story. And then the rest of David's story, he's this conquering warrior, right? So that they're really mirror images of one another, but the emphasis is put on different parts of the of the the narrative. Mhm. And I personally I would think that that speaks that speaks to them being two separate offices that could be fulfilled by uh one individual, right? Without necessarily it having to be two persons, right? one Messiah who dies and then you know the then another one comes who's a completely different person. And that's that's one of the other objections that I typically get to the idea of Yeshua being Msiach Ben Ysef is is you know it it gets thrown back at me that well but that's Mashiach Ben Yosesef and Mashiach Ben Davidid is going to be somebody entirely different even that's not really so direct. Um, and there are even, you know, rabbitic quotations that would suggest uh that uh that they are the same, right? Well, I don't have a citation, but there's a rabbi that actually straight up says that um if that the two sticks that are merged in in Ezekiel, those are the two messiahs, they are one. Yep, that's totally what I think. And I I can't remember if it's Kolhhatur or it's one of it's one of the citations from uh either the Vagon or one of his students that essentially essentially says that uh wherever where I think it's wherever you see uh David, Joseph is there in the shadow or something like that. It's something to that nature. Um and there's there's another that even compared it to a coin, right? Essentially that they're opposite sides of the same coin. Um, and there's another I think even from Ramban that that suggests that there would be one Sadi in whom the spirit of both resided. Yeah. Before we before we go off too too much, I have some of the quotes from because I know we were talking about like the whole Gog and Magog and then like the war that that uh they would have fought. Um I have here Rashi Rash's commentary um on uh with Isaiah where he says he who flees from the sound of the uh fright shall fall into the pit etc. Whoever escapes the sword of the Messiah the son of Joseph shall fall into the sword of the Messiah son of David and whoever escapes from there shall be uh snared in the trap of the wars of Gog. So um that's that's Rashi on that. And then we have another one um uh okay so um this is from uh Abarbanel uh with his commentary on Zechariah 12. Uh similarly it says as I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And it was said of the children of Judah that they are called the house of David and of the tribes uh that are included among the inhabitants of Jerusalem. It says the inhabitants of Jerusalem. It is mentioned that the death of the righteous person will be precious in the eyes of the Lord. And because of this, the Lord will seek ways to destroy all the nations. Meaning that when the Messiah, son of Joseph, dies in battle, the Lord's anger and jealousy against those nations will be kindled. Uh will mourn for him as one mourns for an only son as a father mourns for his son. Yeah. So just as you know that what the rabbis have said regarding this this war as you guys have brought up gag and magog you know it's even brought up there even the typology I wanted to like piggyback Joshua kind of what you were saying like we see so much typology with uh Joseph and also just as you know Yeshua was raised from the dead Joseph was raised up you know Yeshua sits at the father's right hand uh Joseph sits at the um Pharaoh's right hand. Yeah. Right. He's given the signant ring. We read I think it's in um Haggi chapter 2 vers 23 where like the whole curse of Jeaniah where the signant ring will be restored through Zerubabel. Right. So just as Joseph gets this the line of Messiah also receives the signant ring. Um he acts as that. And then uh Brett, as you were even talking about with um being of the same coin, we do see this softer, you know, delicate Messiah as Joseph. But then even with um David and I want to bring up Ezekiel 34, uh because through there, Ezekiel 34 talks about I specifically yave I will shepherd my people. I will be there, you know, everything. Um and I will send and uh David uh yeah David will be my shepherd. The only problem is David is dead right now. So who is he referring to? It's that David like figure David like Messiah. So we we see so much of this hair and um one thing I think Christians should really appreciate about um the rabbis instead of kind of having this idea that like ah Jews hate Jesus we push them to the side. These are people who've dedicated their entire life looking at the Tanakh, look, you know, reading Partardes, reading the different ways to interpret these scriptures. Um, and a lot of the conclusions that they have come to of what this Messiah would uh do is is remarkable. Like I'll say to to trigger a lot of my Christian friends, I'll say that Jews have more faith that Jesus is the Messiah than Christians. And you know, they'll look at me like, "What do you mean?" I'm like, "Bro, go look at what they wrote that the Messiah will do." Yeah. You know, and it screams it. It's amazing. Um, honestly, so I just finished um Exile Messiah, like literally this week, and I was blown away. Um, of course, I I'm newer to the Torah Walk, so for me, uh, most of my understanding of all this is from just just scripture. I haven't gotten into all of the rabbitic writings yet. Like I I'm still very early in this walk and I'm reading this and I'm like, how do they not see it? Which is so cool because Brad, you and and Sheamus made this statement on on the state the the episode that I watched. I don't remember which one it was or I post a link. But um you said Joseph was hidden from his brothers. The world could benefit, right? Yeah. The world benefited through the famine, through all of that. And when Joseph's brothers went down, they didn't recognize him. They didn't know him. But we, the world, the the Gentiles were able to benefit because of that. and and we benefit because the son of Joseph is hidden from his brothers. And Paul says this in Romans 11 that for the benefit of the Gentiles, Jesus was hidden because then he says if they would recognize him, it would be and the quote is life from the dead, which we all know as the resurrection. It would be the coming of of the king. Not to quote Lord of the Rings, but it would be the return of the king, right? Um, so to me it it's so cool when when you pointed that out like everything about Jesus screams son of Joseph Joseph and then everything about the prophecies in Revelation screams son of David. And I'm I'm working through a project right now. I downloaded it just a ton of scriptural cross references. Um, and I I've only gone through Revelation chapter 1 where I'm literally just pasting the Old Testament references through Revelation and like I I want to say Revelation chapter 1 ended up being like seven or eight pages of just Old Testament quotes of all that's there. It's it's incredible. Yeah, it just points to him. Go ahead. I was just going to say that that's a lot of what you see in in the Naked Bible podcast when Dr. Michael Heiser went through Revelation is he was just pulling at all kinds of Old Testament references and and connecting it to all kinds of prophecy and and and just, you know, like recognizing like a lot of this is imagery that's already there, but then it it comes out a little different and in in in John's vision. And so, you know, it's like how exactly that works, I don't know. But, you know, it's like this this part and this part and this part are all kind of put in a blender and you know um yeah, it gets that gets super interesting. The the thing that kind of caught me uh will when you were talking about it is the the connectivity of that that sense of um Ezekiel, right? because you have Ezekiel 36. You have the dry bones and the resurrection essentially of Israel and then that kind of going straight into Ezekiel 37 and the two sticks and the reunification of Judah and and Ephraim and Judah and Joseph and and all of that kind of being tied together. And then you look at at Joseph's story and when you finally get Joseph being reunited with his father, you his father is called Israel and he's stunned to the point where it's almost like he's dead and then he revives, you know, and it's like you have a reviving Israel in the presence of of Joseph as essentially something that that you know not only happens but is also a type looking forward to the to the resurrection of of Israel in the presence of the Josephite. and and Davidic Messiah. Like that's really cool. Um and and there's just a a lot there where you you just kind of keep going back and forth going like this like I feel like the conspiracy theory guy with all the all the strings on the board, but it's it really is there's so many interconnections in the text that it's it's it's just amazing to see. No, and I think that's what Yeshua meant when he said like you you like this is what Moses wrote about me. Now I don't think you know verbatim like only the Torah like we see the entire Tanakh 2 where you can find any parallel to Yeshua within that text. Yeah. And what I love about this as as someone who's kind of over the last few years really gotten into apologetics and and taught apologetics is for so much of my life I looked back as this was the thing that was done right. This puts me in the same spot as the entire crowd of Hebrews 11 that were looking forward to the promise, right? Yeah. No longer am I saying, well, he came and did. It's, yeah, he came and did, but look what's still coming, right? And yes, as a Christian, I looked forward to all of that, but how much more now diving into these things at a whole other level? I feel like I've transitioned from this, you know, this dispensational level of and replacement theology of well, we are the church, we are the fulfillment to I've still got to look forward to this hope of what's to come. And like I don't know, I just I feel like I identify so much more with those Old Testament characters and and even with the Jewish people of you know, for me, I I look at this and I say the son of David hasn't come. I mean, yes, he came once. He is the descendant of David, but he didn't come to do that. And now I look forward rather than saying Jesus did it all, I'm like, "No, Jesus did what I needed. He's still going to do more." And and we we were studying today in church. Um our our connect classes, we're all doing Psalm 105. And I got to talk a little bit about God's faithfulness and the eternal covenant with Israel. And I said, "Hi." Uh and and and I was talking about like look this is so important because we're looking for this too and Brad you mentioned that you know Christians and Jews are now looking for the same Messiah. We are. Yes. Yes. Claim blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosana to the son of David, you know, on Palm Sunday. But at the same time, he came to do something completely different. And yes, he's a descendant of David, but how much are we still looking for that promise? I I think it's actually noteworthy to point out, you know, that of of all the times that an opportunity came up, you know, there there are uh two specific references um in the Gospels where it it really seems like Yeshua is being asked to step into the role of the son of David, right? Um and this is these these are some of those things that um the first one in particular, right? uh Yeshua's first miracle. This is something that you don't really learn uh if you're not familiar with rabbitic literature, but the uh turning of water into wine in particular is a miracle that is more often attributed to the son of David, right? And when Yeshua is being asked to do this, what is his answer? What does he say? He says, "My time is not yet come." Yeah. Right. He he he like he actually clearly says, "It's not time for that yet." Um and then the the second example uh would be um when he is uh being asked if he's going to attend the festival by his family, you know, uh the the festival being um Hanukkah, right, which is a story of of Israel overcoming their oppressors, of rededicating the temple or which which really is the first step to reestablishing the kingdom, right? you really have to have the temple first. Uh and so there's there's illusion there to whether or not he's you know he's going to step into that role. And what does he tell his family then too? Right? He says, "My time is not yet come." Right? There there's we have two examples of really where there is an illusion to him being asked to step into that role and he says it's not time for that yet. Yeah. Right. Um, but I wanted to touch on the the allegory with Joseph because it it really is beautiful and it's it's you know it's a it's a little more obvious the uh typology between Yeshua and and Joseph, right? We get this idea Joseph is not particularly beloved by his brothers uh and then they relinquish him to the nations which Egypt is throughout rabbitic literature euphemistic with the nations more broadly. Um, and you get a few different patterns like that. You get Edom like that. You get if like that even sometimes. And you get Egypt. Yeah. Right. And and so you know, so he he's there and while there he is dressed to look like an Egyptian, right? He no longer looks like the brother that they recognize. Uh and he even leans into this a little bit by uh alluding to uh Joseph that is his his cup uh that he uses to divine with. You know, he he kind of he he he he leans into this this association with the nations that his brothers have, right? This idea that they have of him of being an Egyptian ruler. Um, and it's it's not until later at the end of the story where he reveals himself. Um, I think I think an interesting conversation could be had about the fact that he clears the room of the Egyptians uh before revealing himself to his brothers. Uh but and will you may be familiar with this but according to the Midrash Rabba when he revealed himself that's a direct illusion actually to him revealing his circumcision. What he revealed to them was the sign of the covenant. What he revealed to them was you know this is prior to Judaism being a thing but it it's what today would categorically distinguish him as being Jewish. Yeah. You know Yeah. So, I I'm curious because uh some of the things you have said um make me wonder uh and this may just be a place where we have differences of opinion, which is totally fine. I I'm I'm fine with that. Um do you see Messiah bin Davided as a role that is entirely or almost entirely yet to come that Jesus is going to fulfill or do you see uh ways in which he has already or is currently fulfilling that? I'm I'm curious how that plays out uh in your minds because I I think we can all say that we're looking forward to a future fulfillment of the of the fullness of the kingdom, right? Uh although we may even see that some of that a little bit differently about how that plays out and that's again fine. Um but I get the sense we might have a little bit of a different idea about what some of the already is that ties into that not yet or whether there isn't already. And so I'm I'm just kind of curious about some of that. I I I definitely can see some of the arguments that I've read um that uh maybe in in a more symbolic sense, you know, the the idea of conquering death and hell uh you know, the these ideas in in a very I I would dare say u like in terms of partardas it would be much more sed level interpretation um that that one could consider those fulfilled within that frame of context which to me would just further elude to them both being one, you know. Uh, but as far as like all of the the most literal like like the hardline literal fulfillments, I I personally I do think that those are mostly yet to come. Okay. Yeah, I would agree. I I tend to lean very um historic premill is what I guess is it's called or I like to call it Jewish premill because I I do draw heavily heav heavy distinction to I am not dispensational premill um there there are so many things when you look at the culture right so God makes his covenant with Abraham and then Abraham goes and walks the land which you know it basically is like exploring the property you just bought type thing. Well, that means that in that culture all of that land that he walks is to become the nation. That's the covenant fulfillment, which it never historically has. Never had even under David, they never reached those boundaries. So I guess that depends on whether you look at that as being that promise being fulfilled through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob or whether you see it also being the potential for some of that to be fulfilled under other sons of Abraham and other sons of Isaac. Uh right. Well, yeah, this is a little bit of a rabbit trail. So follow through with yeah, Israel has to have that land. That that was the covenant of the land. That that's my understanding of it. Now maybe there's arguments for the other. Now I I will say right obvious the the most obvious literal interpretation that I would say is most certainly fulfilled is that he you know he comes from the loins of David 100%. Right. Um and and from the town of Bethlehem right you know there there there there are parts about his origin that I I would I would say absolutely most certainly this fits the bill for the Davidic Messiah. Is is uh Daniel 7 a future thing or has it already happened? Oh, future. I I would say future. That that's the sense I was getting because I don't I don't agree with that. But that that's fine. I I I'm totally fine disagreeing. Um I because when I look at it podcast though, I mean Well, yeah. Um I'm actually very curious to hear your your thoughts on that. Well, so I mean for me, you know, when you have Jesus in front of the high priest, one of the things that he like when the high priest gets really mad and and is like blasphemy, it's when Jesus literally, you know, basically brings up Daniel 7 is and has and says like from now on you will see the son of man seated. Um, and so it seems to me like he's he's making that much more a from now on kind of thing um than just a future thing. And that seems to me to also be carried forward in the way that Hebrews talks about the Messiah. It also seems to be something that that Peter in Acts two talks about when he um when he literally is just like, you know, guys like God has made Yeshua both Lord and Christ has made now, right? Um so for me, I see a sense of of Christ ruling in the midst of his enemies even now, right? in in the in the heavenly sense on the throne of heaven. And then you have a sense of okay, but then you're going to have the the the time when all of the enemies are conquered completely, the return of the the of the kingdom to earth in full and and those that kind of of fulfillment is is more how I see that. So, it's just interesting to to see different ways that people look at some of those things and place them in already not yet or don't see already at all or don't see not yet at all, you know. Yeah. you said because I don't understand that text to mean from henceforth you'll see. I think it it it's as I remember it. Okay. Now I'm not looking passage. It's a in the future you will see. And one thing that I always remember is in Acts seven Peter says that he's standing at the right hand of God. He's not seated yet. That coronation to me h as I understand it hasn't happened. Now again, I I'm not looking at it, so I I could be completely wrong in how other passages read, but that's my understanding. I would actually I I would actually point out because I don't really inherently disagree with that synopsis. M um but I I would say that that still falls more under the the purview of of uh one of I I I would say either Dash or Sod in in terms of um of uh exeetical Jewish exeetical exposition. Uh you know when I say literal interpretation I I mean you know the actual hardline look this is what it says will come to pass. And so in terms of ruling in Israel, I mean like as the actual literal sitting king in Israel, you know, the that that part I do see to be, you know, future coming. But I don't disagree at all that, you know, he's he's been given this this authority at I I dare say um a higher uh a higher jurisdiction, you know. Um I I don't Yeah, I don't I don't I would have to think about it a little more, but I don't think that I disagree with that inherently. So let me if I can I just want to read 13:14 and 15 real quick. Um in my vision at night I looked and there before me was one like a son of man coming in the clouds of heaven. He approached the ancient of days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign uh sovereign uh sovereign power. All nations and people of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion um that will not pass away and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. So, like I I I think like I agree with Brad to where like I can see where like you're you're coming from, but I think like the fullness of it would be him coming back because when I read this, like I do think of Revelation of the New Jerusalem, you know, descending from above, resting on the earth, everything that's established, we see everyone in that kingdom. And Revelation talks about there are dogs outside of that kingdom. um we are now uh adopted sons within that kingdom. So uh I think like the fullness of it that I think it would make I think it fits more of that revelation style of him returning and you do like you see what I mean? Yeah. No, I mean I definitely I I have a pretty good So I I grew up Calvary Chapel so all that all the like future kind of stuff. Yeah. I'm I'm pretty familiar with with that way of thinking about it. Um whether or not I'm I was I grew up thinking about it in all of the details that you guys are thinking about it with the various layers of Jewish interpretation is a completely different question. But like at least in the broad sketches like I yeah an example I I think that that maybe could kind of ground where where I could where I see where I see both right and I don't disagree. Um, one of the one of the common uh responses that we would all get um from Judaism regarding uh any of the Messianic passages uh particularly in Isaiah though um is is that they're about Israel, God's servant, right? And that they're not really messianic. That it's that it's you know about Israel, God's servant. Uh and yeah, there there's certainly a frame in which that works. And I don't think it's wrong, right? I I don't I wouldn't disagree with that synopsis, but I don't think that it's actually I I don't think that it fits the most literal interpretation of those passages. I think that it's, you know, that it uh that it it it works. I don't I don't see it as an either or. I don't think they're mutually exclusive. I think it's a both and. Right. There are we can certainly look at Israel's history and and see where they really have kind of borne the the brunt of uh of persecution on on behalf of the rest of the world. There there's a number of examples we can pull, you know, throughout history. Um, actually one that I I love to to bring up that was brought up to me by a Jewish friend is uh I I didn't know that we in America during the revolution only really had to deal with half of the British Armada, right? The the the the British army. We only dealt with half of them. If they had sent the entire force, America probably wouldn't be a nation today. But they divided their armada in half so that they could send half of it to deal with less than 1,000 Jews that were uh purportedly causing a pirating problem in the Caribbean, right? And so less than 1,000 Jews was enough of a was enough of a reason for the Brits to divide their army in half to go deal with them. And because of that, America is a nation today and America has, you know, come to be one of Israel's greatest allies uh in in history and whatnot. But, you know, we have examples like that. Um, but again, I think if we're talking about, you know, a real hardline literal interpretation, this really does these passages are talking about a person, right? not exactly a nation, but an actual person, which even even in Talmudic literature, the the rabbis agree that this is a person, that this would be the Messiah. Well, and and I'm terrible with references even in the Bible, so much less a book I've read once, but um in the Exod Messiah, he actually pulls quotes from rabbis stating that Isaiah 53 is about Messiah Ben Yseph. Yep. Same in this one. You don't have to take Christianity's word for it or or our word for it, we've got sources that show that highlevel rabbis, right? Rambam, Rambling, all these people, they point to Isaiah 53 to paint the picture of the son of Joseph. Yeah. So when when when when a Jew looks at you and says, "Well, that's about Israel." It's like, "Well, like Brad said, it's both." And and that's not saying it. That's the idea of him being given all authority, right, and dominion. I I 100% agree with that. But I I would I would still say that his his uh exercise of said authority and dominion is something that we would have yet to look look forward to in terms of like a a really really physical literal occurrence. I think like the fullness. One of the things that you guys have said in the past is by completing his mission as Ben Yosesef, he has been given the authority to be Ben Davidid. Yes. I don't I hope that's a steel man of the quote and and like accurate, but basically, you know, especially from from a non-trinitarian perspective, you know, there there's a lot in scripture and this is kind of funny because I'll have people talk about being, you know, being premill. They're like, well, are you preerttrip, mid-trip, postrip? I'm like, honestly, I'm post-trip, but I can see elements of all. And that's because even Peter talks about this concept of merit, right? It's all throughout. And so by succeeding as the suffering servant, by his submission to the father, by his accepting the yoke of the crucifixion, by his drinking of the cup, all of these things, he merited the authority to sit on the throne of David and to become the second Adam. Um, but that has yet to actually reach its fulfillment. I'm probably the only trinitarian here, so of course we'll have disagreements there, too. But that's fine. I'm a I'm a quadrinarian. Josh, have you heard Ever heard of the Quadrinity? We'll we'll talk later. We'll talk later. Just Yeah. Okay. Interesting. That's not what this is for, Will. Go back to the first message I said when I started the group chat. We have too much ADD for you to be throwing us off course. Come on. No, but I I wanted to say uh regarding Isaiah uh 53, well, really Isaiah 52:13 to 53:12, the whole idea of the suffering servant. It's really interesting because when you when you go to the early the the the earliest interpretations of this, especially even the Zohar, you know, all point to the Messiah, right? It really it wasn't really until Rashi came up where you had the Crusades and you I mean you really had Christianity I think really screwed it up and they really put too much hatred on the Jews to where they're just like look we need to come up with a different interpretation because they're they're persecuting us. They're screaming Jesus. So he came up with Israel which I would agree with Brad. You can definitely see Israel within that text, but I think the greater one would be Messiah. And Jeremy, you brought up because Rambam even says like Rashi's wrong. Like it is about Messiah. And even it's interesting because one of his 13 principles is to believe in a Messiah. Like you can't be Jewish and ignore the idea of a Messiah figure coming, right? And and that's huge, you know, and everyone holds up. I mean, I don't know. I don't want to say the Rambam, you know, um, Rabbi Rambam, right, Brad, uh, is the is like like the greatest rabbi of all time, but I feel like he is the one looked at the most with his philosophical framework of Judaism. So, you know, if he basically says that there has to be a, you know, a Messiah and you can't be Jewish if you reject the idea of Messiah, a lot of people will go to that. But it's kind of this whole understanding of Jesus didn't come as Messiah Ben David. He came as Joseph. That's why I feel like a lot of Jews even struggle with this because literally last week I was talking to a guy on TikTok. Brad, you know, have you ever talked to Bernie? Oh yeah, I've talked to Bernie. Okay. And and and I I love Bernie though. Great. Bernie's awesome. Great Orthodox guy. But his argument was to me is like, well, when Jesus came, he didn't conquer. He didn't do everything. I'm like, well, that was Ben Joseph. What or excuse me, that was that's David's role, but what about Joseph's role? Oh, I don't believe in Messiah Ben Joseph. And it's like they reject this whole idea and they're only looking at David. And it's like, well, there was one, which is interesting because like there's a whole lot of rabbitic writings that are talking about Messiah and Joseph. Your rabbis say that you should believe in Mashiach. There was one rabbi that actually said he's like, "If the son of Joseph came, we missed it." You know, I forget which one it was, but I was like, "Wow, that's it's so true." Like, I mean, I think you did. And that's okay. You know, I was ready. It's interesting, too, you bringing up the Crusades because that that even has some different dynamics between Eastern and Western Christianity. you have the fourth crusade where they actually sacked Constantinople. Uh so you have you have a lot of like maybe misguided uh approaches to things that are that are happening with some of that. And um yeah, I'm not going to be an apologist for the Crusades entirely and I'm also probably not going to push back entirely on it because you also have, you know, I mean there's a reason why the Holy Lands were overtaken by by various uh you know um Muslim um leaders. Uh and you know, like I can see why you had Christians, you know, say, you know, we feel like that shouldn't be, right? Um, so a lot of complicated stuff there. Um, I honestly don't know the history well enough to to deal with it in deep. Uh, but yeah, this is a really interesting comment. Uh, this actually Chris, I'd be interested to read this. What? Yeah, I was just Yeah, I was just looking at that. Yeah, it's this is something that that David Mitchell does connect in the idea that the the cutoff um prince um in Daniel 9 is is is Jesus. Uh so um yeah very interesting I'd definitely be interested to to read that as well. So you know it one thing that is interesting is the the timeline that's given in Daniel you know is from this from this point forward so many weeks you know uh it's it's been brought to my attention that there's actually multiple ways to do the math on that um and and you know some some do not line up with a messianic birth u but I I actually I've I've had conversations with Orthodox Jews who they've brought that up and they've said look yeah there are multiple ways to interpret this and then do the math on it. Um, but you know, he said, personally for me, I I see it this way and that actually does mean that there's there's a pretty big pill that I've got to swallow that's that's a bitter pill, you know, uh, which essentially was an admission that he accepts he accepts that the timeline uh, would result in a messianic birth. um but would still disagree essentially that that it was Jesus and I but that that be that as it may that's actually a huge admission favors that interpretation because it's a hostile witness Brad so I'm curious with you because I know like you you'll talk I you know you you you and I we talked to a lot of Jews especially like on on TikTok I feel like and stuff like that I brought this up to them and they just flat out ignore They like I I'm curious and this is not a uh I don't know uh mean comment or whatever, but like they they just flat out ignore me. And I'm curious like what I mean have you like what have what have you gotten from a lot of Orthodox Jews regarding this? Well, so I haven't had the conversation with very many. Uh, one reason I think could be an explanation actually use DeWalt tools, not I I I I think one explanation as to why there might be more silence on it uh is is because and I've got the I've got the art scroll uh commentary on Daniel here. And when it comes to that passage, there actually isn't very much written on it, right? there there really isn't very much in the way of rabbitic commentary on that passage which one could say the silence is deafening. Yeah. Um and and I think it it also would allude to the idea that um you know maybe this uh this passage and you know however you want to do the math on the calculation uh really wasn't a matter of dispute until more recently. Yeah, but okay, I would agree with you because especially when you when you get to Daniel, Daniel's hard because it says like 1,00 what 1335 days. It says I think like one of the numbers was like time times and half a time which I know a lot of scholars will say two and a half or excuse me three and a half years. Um, but there's a lot of weird or 21 I think one of the numbers is even like 2170 days or weeks or whatever. Like it it's it's super weird. But specifically that one where like the Messiah would basically essentially arrive before the 70 AD, the destruction of the temple, like you know, and I I I totally agree with you and I understand even Daniel I see you Jeremy. I like I even agree with you too. Um, Daniel's just like one of those weird books, right? It's in the writings, not even in the prophets. They didn't know where to put that uh canonically. Um, there's a lot of debate with Daniel even before coming in. A lot of Christians even had their discussions with Daniel, but I just I have I have not heard any type of explanation. And um I don't know. I was just curious if you did. Well, you're going to have to be a lot more specific. We've all said a lot of stuff. Oh, I mean, you know, it seems surprised that he came across the stream, but I'm assuming that uh possibly subscribed uh and that's that's why the stream came across your feed, which makes you not a hater, but a fan. Um, absolutely. Who doesn't want to win? So, I think Mitch was talking referring to you, Jeremy, u about the whole DeWalt situation. Hey, hey, first I hold to I just said the reason that they don't give you the time of day. Actually, I I'm not a a a tool junkie in that way. Um I've used DeWalt and I've used Milwaukee and I like both of them. I am a Makita hater. To bring this back around real quick to the typology of Joseph. Excellent. just just to you know ju to to reel it back into the typology of Joseph and this was referenced earlier um and uh wasn't exactly fleshed out and explained in detail but I have in in other uh streams the the function of Joseph in his own story as I read it appears to have been different depending on who we're talking about right it it it's often thought and presented that the famine was affecting his family as much as it was Egypt. And that's that's why they went to Egypt to go and get food. But there's something Jacob says to his sons that doesn't actually fit that narrative. It it actually causes like pause to question. Jacob says to his sons, "Why are you being so conspicuous?" And this is mentioned in relation to the famine, right? the the the the narrative tells us that the famine had grown far and wide and then it gives us Jacob telling his sons, "Why are you being so conspicuous?" What are we being told here? One of the things we have to remember is that God already had a covenant with Jacob, right? So, Jacob and his family were going to be fine regardless, right? They were already in covenant with God and God was going to take care of them. They had no need really to go to Egypt. and the the the the comment, why are you being so conspicuous? Um certain rebbitic commentators have suggested that actually they were kind of flaunting exactly how okay they were. Yeah. Whereas others were clearly suffering, but they were okay and they were they were kind of, you know, shoving it in everybody's face, so to speak. Um, and so to keep up the illusion that they were suffering as poorly as everyone else, Jacob sent them to Egypt to go and get grain, right? I have the Sunshini Kumash. I think that's how you say that. And they don't quite go that far to say that they were flaunting it, but he does say that they were taken care of. They were fine. But Jacob sent them for the purpose that they wouldn't get robbed because they were okay. basically because they were doing well enough, he was worried that the the nations would come at them and rob them. So he said, "Hey, go make it look like like we need help, right?" And when when you look at it that way, right, you you really have to question, okay, well, what purpose does Joseph serve for his family? Because there it can't be denied that there is a functional purpose that he has to serve for his family. But it's clearly not the same purpose that he is serving for the broader world, right? In saving them essentially from starvation, um from death, so to speak. And what we get at the end of the story, right, and and what we get, Joseph's main concern uh upon seeing his brothers is his father. The first thing that he asks is how is your father? Right? And we even get this idea in the conversation between Jacob and his sons that Jacob doesn't really feel like his sons are completely innocent in the matter of Joseph. There seems to be a degree of blame that's still harbored in Jacob's heart regarding the loss of Joseph. Right? The degree to which he thinks they're responsible or they played a part in it is not explained. But there's an illusion there that this is something he does hold against them to a degree. Right? And so one of the functions that Joseph serves which is different between his brothers and the nations uh is to bring reconciliation with their father, right? To reconcile his brothers with their father. Not to save them from death because again they were already part of covenant with God. Uh but to bring reconciliation between him and his father. Um and this is something that can be derived from certain of the certain certain of like what is said about uh Yeshua in the New Testament uh even from some of some of what Paul has said uh that yet there's the there's the function of bringing salvation to the broader world right um but there's there's something else regarding the Jewish people there's there's there's there's there's more to it there's there's bringing recon reconciliation with the father for them which is something that it's it's different for the gentile world you know the gentile world is being being brought into communion with Israel right as we get Ephesians 2 you know you who were far off cut off from the covenants of promise you who were Gentiles right that you you get that idea and there's this being brought near um but if if being brought near to the covenants and to the community of Israel then it suggests that there's there is a already an active covenant still with Israel. Yeah. And so the function of Yeshua has to be different for them. And I think that this is one of the typologies where we do see some interplay between the person of Yeshua and the typology of of Messiah Ben Joseph. Love it. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because I was going to bring that up too because basically we have the 12 nations with Israel, right, coming with the Gentiles right here where it's almost that and you guys mentioned it earlier. I don't think you mentioned the verse. It's Zechariah 8:23 where 10 people from the nations right will come for which obviously represents the 10 tribe kingdom that was uh that was sent out you know will will come come to the Jew and like come we know that God is with you and you know it's not verbatim what's going on with um Egypt and uh with with um Jacob's sons and everything but you can definitely see a lot of the similarities that were there. They were saved because of Joseph, someone from Jacob essentially, which you know, Messiah also would come through. They were saved because of him. Um, even when I watch that, I don't know about you guys, I cry every time when I watch that DreamWorks movie with uh with Joseph when he reveals himself. I cry every time. I need to watch that. I have it on DVD and and and so like Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You never saw it? I've never seen King of Dreams. Brad, kick him out. Now, now, um I love I do I I've actually sung the song in church better than I, right? Um I love that song, but I haven't seen that one. And I'm looking for the the right holiday because again, I'm new to the walk. So, if you guys have a recommendation because part of what I do is I try to figure out how to bring my kids into into this, right? So every skot and every Passover we watch Prince of Egypt. Um like that that's part of our tradition. We we do that with with the girls, right? The relief on Will's face is just amazing. I I gotta say Well, if you if you can recommend a holiday to watch that with, I will make that a tradition and we'll watch it yearly. Have the DVD. I just keep forgetting about it because I don't This is this is the uh Christian Sabbath. Okay. So, it's a perfect night, you know, for you can think lie lie la, you know, do that. Watch the movie and then just picking I don't know. Have you not seen that? I'm like I'm so disappointed right now that I haven't I have the DVD. I've been curious about it. I just always forget about it when it's moving tonight. Watch it tonight, please. Well, the girls aren't here tonight. So, you you saying the Christian Sabbath is giving me Westminster Confession vibes. Dude, and like I celebrate Saturday Sabbath. Prince of Egypt is the greatest movie ever. This one is a very close I would say a close second just because I'm not a fan of the animation. But bro, you cry every time. Well, honestly, Eric, you and I need to talk. I I am loving tonight. But like but kind of what Brad says, you know, going back on topic, it is such a beautiful sign because I do I do feel like because the Jewish people do have a spot. Yeah. Right. Where where Paul even talks about, you know, uh ones who are part of the original tree that the nations will be grafted in like a wild olive branch. But there will be that time when they see Messiah Ben David and it will be revealed that I'm also Messiah Ben Joseph. And and just seeing that I I think a lot of Jews will end up saying I was wow I I see it now. Right? It's that aha moment. It's that light bulb going off where now it makes sense. Well, Paul says, "Don't think that they can't be grafted back in." Right. Well, and when you think about it in terms of reconciliation with the father, right? That I I would even dare say more so because Judah has always stood apart. Even in the narrative of Joseph, Judah stands apart from his brothers. Right. Yeah. And you expect him to be the one that's the firstborn after Reuben and then it's Joseph and you're like, "What?" Right. Right. Right. There's just some weird like ways of standing apart that you don't expect even and and you know J Judah stands apart and there's actually there's a his name is Rav Droer. He's got a just a fascinating philosophy on that. Uh cuz he uses this story and he explains, right, we all understand the 10 lost tribes, right? Those are those are the ones who severed themselves from uh from the covenant really. Those are the ones who really need reconciliation with the father and they've kind of been enveloped into the nations. And uh so in in in in Christianity bringing repentance that that that's a that's a partial fulfillment one one you know one could derive but but Rav Drawer his his whole idea and it's fascinating. I would love to see how this fleshes itself out in the future is he in one lesson explained this, right? He said, "Judah is the one who said I cannot return to my father." Yeah. Without this child with me, without the boy with me, without my sibling with me, right? I can't return to the father with him. And then he, you know, he looks at this congregation and he's like, "You all claim to be Judah, right? Judah the the the lion." And he's like, "Your siblings are out there, right? The 10 lost tribes, they're out there. Like, how how dare you presume to be in a position to return to the father without your sibling with you, right? He's he's he's really got a heart for the gentile world in that aspect." And uh and and I you know I don't know what what his ultimate goal is. Uh but when when he said that it just struck me it's like okay no so so there are Jews even with within orthodoxy who understand this principle right that the that the 10 tribes are are out among the nations right they're they're out there somewhere and uh that that they can't return to the father without without them right that there that there does need to be a reconciliation with the father on the part of those 10 tribes um And I I think again if we're if we're figuring in the typology of Yeshua and and Joseph that this dynamic actually still fits in. Yeah. And this is this is something that conversations between Judah and Joseph facilitated in particular. Well, you know, I I still listen to Rabbi Gordon every morning from Kamad and and one thing that he has said I I believe it was him. So if someone out out there hears this and I have misqued, I apologize but is that he has said that the one thing about Christianity is that Jesus brought monotheism to the world, right? more than any other Jew, you know, accepting that the Trinity is a is a is is okay for Gentiles that actually does say and I love that. Um because it it it's true uh you know um now that there's this really cool dynamic that that Rabbi Gordon mentioned and he said of the three Abrahamic religions Judaism, Christianity and and Islam, Christianity and Judaism's goal and and Josh, this is one of the things that I think if I understand orthodox esquetology correctly, um which I don't know a lot about, but I think this is where you guys land is on what I would call the correct side of this is he said Christianity and Islam their goal is to get to heaven. The goal of Judaism is to bring heaven down. And I think that's where Orthodox kind of lands. And I know Yeah. Um there's definitely like a sense of like first resurrection, second resurrection idea in where you have people in spirit in the presence of God and looking forward to the bodily resurrection and and and the all of that kind of stuff in there. Yeah. And and so and I loved that because that's what I always believed was like we're supposed to be living this here and and not looking forward to this weird angelic like um Thomases esquetology where you're an angel with wings floating on a cloud. like we're supposed to bring the message of the gospel, the message of hope, the message of relationship with God to the world now. And and and that's what Judaism is about. That's what the teachings of Christ is about. That's what so many and and honestly what PSA gets wrong, not not to bring this back to that, is that we always come back to it. It's about getting out of hell. No, it's not. It's about hope now. It's about living a better life now. It's about freedom from from sin and from the enslavement of sin, from from Egypt, from from these things. Now, we can have that. That's what Christ the victor is. It's about the conquering of sin and death. It's the fact that we're not slaves to sin. That and part of that part of that becomes being free from the fear of death, too. Correct. to the point where a better life now can also still include things like being martyed. Like that's that's definitely not a prosperity gospel thing, but it is a Christian thing. You can't experience the resurrection if you don't die. I mean, and you know, this is this is going to be one of the essential human experiences, right? Well, and that's what CS Lewis said is he said the difference between someone who is I don't know what the so we're going to get demonetized for this statement because I don't know the the online statement for this. Um the the but he said the difference between someone who is suicidal and someone who is an adrenaline junkie, right? When when we talk about laying down your life and finding it is he said that the person who is suicidal is dead to everything. He kills himself to everything. But the person who is who who lays his life down, the adrenaline junkie, is so committed to a cause that when he is so close to death for his cause, he is never more alive. Pratt, what did I say? I just you you brought up you brought up Rabbi Foreman and and now you know this topic and I just I can't get out of my head ever something that he once pointed out and it's it's one of those areas where like Jewish wisdom is like man how could it really just be that simple you know he's like somebody who who is suicidal you know they they think to themselves you know oh I don't matter at all I got to kill myself you know and and he's like well like you don't matter at all why would you kill yourself like you're not that important, right? Wow. That's turning it in a different direction. Wow. Boy, total abandonment. I mean, it it kind of reminds me of people that are militant atheists, right? It's like, if you don't believe God exists, then why do you care? Right? Why are you this passionate about that? That is kind of interesting. But, you know, how do you hate something that that doesn't exist? So Jeremy, because you because you guys brought up PSA, I'm just curious real quick. Um, to Jeremy and Josh, what's worse? Someone who believes has the beliefs of PSA or someone who has the beliefs of a Unitarian? You're just gonna you're gonna put it to me. Um, PSA. Absolutely. Thanks, Jeremy. Which one is more damaging to the gospel? PSA. Absolutely. I I think part of the question here becomes what is the relationship between the reality of how we are saved. Yeah. And the belief that we have, right? Um because a lot of people that that believe in PSA like they they don't know any other way to see it. So to them, do you deny that you're denying that Jesus saves and that's clearly not where we're coming. Right. Right. Um, so I think maybe a way to to say this would be something like, you know, I believe that Jesus saves because of who he is and I do think the trinity matters in that, right? How exactly that plays out in terms of, you know, what beliefs do you need to have and all of that. Like I definitely think there are are, I guess you might say, safer beliefs than others. Um, but like Jesus is the one who is coming to judge. Yeah. That's not me, right? You know, so like I'm I'm just not in a position where where I tend tend to try to say like, you know, this this is where what's happening to you if you believe this and you believe this and you believe this. Now, the church says a lot of things very strongly, right? And I'm not disagreeing with those. And the people that said those things, they they are in the position of actually speaking with some authority on that. I'm not. Right? So for me, I look at it and it's like I do think it's important. I do think there are reasons the church has taught what it's taught. I do think there are reasons that they have said things as strongly as they have. Um but you know again at the end of the day like Jesus is the one who saves and Jesus is the one who will judge. And how exactly all that plays out for any individual person like I'm really glad I don't have to be the one to figure that out. Exactly. Well, and I had like a little like literally four comment thread with Jonathan Pritchette of Trin Trinity Radio on this um because you know if you say you have to believe that Jesus is Lord, Trinitarians and Unitarians both agree that Jesus is Lord. Y the the point becomes what is Lord? And and and I've heard so many trinitarians say, "Well, if you deny the Son, you deny the Father." I've never met a Unitarian that believed in Jesus that denied the son. They believe he is the Christ, which literally means the anointed one, right? And and so I I I can't draw that line of distinction because honestly what drew me to Torah observance was the fact that Brad and Sheamus live as followers of Christ more consistently than most Trinitarian independent Baptists that I had met. And I was independent at the time. I'm I'm not now, but Well, that is a particular niche. So, it's very particular. That was the exposure that I had, right, Josh? I'm sorry. You were a heretic. Okay. Um, you also probably believe in work salvation. Oh, of course. Yeah. Let's let's just bring that that straight to uh that let's bring that Rubik and just and just blitz everything with it. Right. As I said in the private chat, Jack Kles is the fourth member of the Trinity. Okay. Uh I disagree. That's the world I grew up in. So, but but I'm like four or three. What? Okay. But but to see the the these people come along and say, "Well, if you're going to be his disciple, as John said, you should walk as he walked. He was this, so I am this." And and to see that I I've heard so many people say, "Well, Jesus could do that because he's God." And the message of the new the apostolic writings the new testament is this. Be like Jesus. Yeah. Well John literally says the works he did you will do also and greater because I go to the father. So there's not one thing that Christ did to my knowledge in scripture according to the New Testament that we can't do through our relationship with the father through reliance on the holy spirit. Right? So to me, when I saw these guys sitting here saying, "Well, Jesus did that, so I do that. Well, Jesus did that, so I do that." I was like, "That's the most biblical form of Christianity I've ever seen in my life." And yet I have other people who say, "Well, well, we can't do that. We can't do what Christ did because he's God." I'm like, "That's not what the gospels teach." We we are getting a little off topic as as someone said in the private chat. I I will say I do think there is a there is a bridge right there to look at and say maybe this could actually connect the two. Um what do you do with Peter walking on water, right? Because he walks on water because he has faith in Christ because he is looking to Jesus. So there there's a sense in which something about who Jesus is can enable people to do things that are more than human. Yeah. Right. And yet Peter also has fear and then he is like sinking like you know. So there there's definitely to me a tether there of of Jesus being the one who is the bridge. And from from an Eastern Orthodox perspective, from a from a kind of Orthodox, you know, broader little Othodox Christian perspective, you have a sense of of that Jesus being the bridge because of who he is, because he unites the divine and human nature. That is an ontological bridge and not just something like PSA that pays the penalty or something like that. Um, so there just different ways of of looking at that. And that that to me is where you could start to get into saying some of the same kinds of things that you're saying where it's like yes, we can do the same things, but how why, right? Um and and that would be more the the Orthodox answer or or the little o orthodox Christian answer. Um versus what you're saying from a unitarian perspective. So um just interesting to kind of tease that out. I'll throw that out there. That could be a bridge back. We can talk about that at some point. Well, I I'm not going to get into sports. We'll talk about that later. But Brad and I had an idea for another episode that I think you'll love. Another bridge on between the topics, right? Because I think I actually I I think it would be awesome to have, you know, this discourse on chryology in in another biblical lenses, you know, conversation. Um because we're all mature adults who can disagree agreeably and and you know, and and everybody else benefits for it. But one bridge between these topics um that is yet again something that both Christianity and Judaism agree on uh respective to the the future coming of Messiah um is that he will bring proper understanding. Right? And this is something that that actually both the Davidic and uh Joseph Messiah both do which we would all agree that Yeshua did do, right? is is to teach proper understanding. The divinity messiah will not just teach though he will enforce proper understanding and that that I think is is one thing that will be will be a difference. And so this is you know this is one of those areas in Judaism you're they all have a little bit of a different min. They all uh observe the kalaka in in slightly different ways and maybe there's there's a little bit of disagreement but they don't really condemn one another on the basis of uh these disagreements because they they understand and and their understanding is that when Messiah comes look he's going to clarify all of this. Yeah. Right. He's he's he's going to he's going to clear the air on on these issues and you we'll all be able to serve him uh in unison together then. And uh I you know I I I don't think it's say that this is one of those issues where you know look if Unitarians are wrong I I I I don't think necessarily that their faith can still be discounted on the basis of of something that was a misunderstanding. I think that's something that Messiah would clear up. You know it feels like you're saying that when you ask four Jews and uh you're going to get one opinion then instead of seven. Yeah. So, so, so I want to what what Brad said because that that's that's one of my favorites. So, this is from the uh Midrash. Um, oh, shoot. I'm going to pronounce it wrong. Ten Tenum Tanuma. Takuma. Yeah. Yeah. Um, that that's actually a really beautiful um I don't have the exact quote in front of me right here, but it says something along the lines of Rabbi so and so says that when the Messiah comes, he will come with the the Torah of the Messiah, right? And um one of the rabbis then said regarding that it's not that he comes with a brand new Torah, right? Not that he will abolish it, but when it says that he will come with his Torah, he will come and explain the Torah in such great detail. He'll explain the white spaces in between the black letters. So I think even going back to Joshua kind of what you said, how you look at um Daniel 7 uh 13 to 15 like hap like already happening, right? Like I think and Brad Jeremy I you guys might agree with me on this. I think we've seen a shadow of what is mentioned in Midash Tenkuma already happen when he came he was already explaining the law where he said you know you you've heard it said don't commit adultery but I say if you look at someone with lust you've committed adultery. You said you've heard it say not to murder but I say if you hate your brother you've already committed murder. Right? He's already but you know he was contradicting the Torah there right? because he's saying you've heard it said this and I say that. Here we go. But but I think it's like the same way like he was doing a foreshadow of what Messiah Ben David will ultimately do. You know, when it talks about we will reign with Christ for a thousand years. I think and and this is just my esquetology. I never argue the book of Revelation with anyone just because it's oh my god I got loose. Yeah, you already know. But it's interesting because I I interpret a thousand years to be literal, right? So if we're with the Messiah, then David for a thousand years. And then remember a thousand years is a day to God. You can make the statement that no one has actually lived a day with God. Yeah. Because you look at what is it? Methuselah was 969. I think that was the oldest, right? So you you can make that statement that no one has lived a day with God. But here we will live with Messiah. We will learn with Messiah of how everything can be properly done and again just my esquetology after the thousand years then we'll be put to the test of we were under our under the master do we still want to be under the master or basically rebel like Adam and Eve did have that ultimate decision um but still that role that that is being played out and how you can draw the conclusions to that to even Matthew chapter 5 y of what you know the rabbis have said regarding that it's just beautiful. Mind-blowing. Yeah, that's awesome. I love it. So, thinking about the topic, right? Okay. What you got? We we probably we're probably moving towards wrapping it up, right? We need to Yeah, we're way long. I know. Well, so um it's I I think it would be interesting to bring up because this is something that um Ronin Ronin Torah was bringing up a lot of the the passages from from Torah and from from the Tanakh that um that people see some precedent for Messiah Joseph and even though it's it's definitely more um distant or inferred or whatever, it's probably worth at least just reading a couple of those for people just so they can have an idea of where maybe this idea could have actually started. um and and then start to see some progression through. Um so I was just thinking of Genesis 49 and then in Deuteronomy you have Moses also giving a blessing of Joseph. Um so could this idea have started here? David Mitchell argues that it did. Um the blessing that you get for Joseph is a fruitful chute or son is Joseph a fruitful chute upon a spring whose branches run over the wall. They attacked him and shot at him. They hated him, the bowman. But his bow remained steady, and the arms of his hands became supple from the hands of the might of Jacob. From thence, a shepherd, a rock of Israel, from the God of your father, who shall help you, and from Shadai, who shall bless you with blessings of heaven above. Blessings of the deep that crouches below, blessings of the breasts and the womb. The blessings of your father are mightier than the blessings of my progenitors, to the limits of the eternal hills. let them be upon the head of Joseph and on the crown of the head of the Nazi or the prince of his brothers. Right? So you have this idea of like like a shepherd, a rock like that's kingly language that connects into Deuteronomy 32 and language that is used of Hashem, right? Um, and so there's a lot of these kind of ideas that start to kind of make point you at like this seems to be, you know, talking of blessing that is, um, of for a prince, for a coming king, for a a a hero, uh, if you will. And then you get into Moses and he adds some interesting bits as well to some of the expectations for this. And he says, um, "And of Joseph he said, "Blessed of the eternal be his land, from the treasures of heaven, from the dew and from the deep that crouches below, and from the treasures brought forth by the sun, and from the treasures put forth by the moons, and from the chief things of the ancient mountains, and from the treasures of the eternal hills, and from the treasures of earth and its fullness, and the favor of the one who dwelt in the bush, let it come upon the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of the Natser of his brothers." So, you have a lot of kind of the same language there. And then he he says, "The firstborn of his shore is his Joseph's majesty, and the horns of a rem are his horns. With them he shall gore the peoples all as one, even to the ends of the earth. And these are the 10 10,000s of Ephraim, and these are the 10,000s of Manasseh." That's from Deuteronomy 33. The argument that David Mitchell makes in this book is that when you if you look at the shore and the rem, you essentially have a firstborn white bull that is born destined to be sacrificed, right? And he says a violent sacri a violent death or sacrifice. And I'm like, you're missing some of the stuff because you're importing PSA, but whatever. Um, but you know, you have this idea of, you know, that's the kind of animal we're talking about, right? But then when you have a the Rem is is more the orox, the the wild ox, the one that has that cannot be contained, cannot be ruled, that has a kind of power and sovereignty that that just goes beyond kind of, you know, what we generally understand. And and part of his question is then looking at it and saying like what happens if you start to to look at this and say could this actually be fulfilled in one person? Yeah. Right. Um then you have this idea of of the one born to be sacrificed who actually then rules, right? Um and he ties it into even some of the like coins that we have um from um at least illustrations of of coins from um from the era of of Joshua. Uh and this I think is is like rabbitic stuff. So it's like the the ideas there. I don't know that we actually have the coins, but like you know, they're looking at it and saying like, no, like the the symbolism here of of this is is the both of these bolts, right? And what if those are essentially connected together? And and then he follows it through in the prophets and the psalms and starts to go into rabbitic writings and the church fathers and the New Testament and all of that. um and saying, you know, it seems like there's an expectation of a coming hero of a coming king that, you know, we do have this kind of dying and rising idea that's a little bit there if you really look into the typology with the animals and the animal apocalypse and and for 90 and and some other things. um what if you have that there and then we start to trace it forward and go like wow like this this could be the beginning of the idea and it does seem like this isn't about Joseph because it's looking forward to to his you know people from his generations and then you also have the sense of Joshua is of Joseph in the in that line and he seems to fulfill some of this but He doesn't rule all the nations. Like there there's a limit to what he's doing. What if there is someone bigger that we're supposed to expect that is going to do all of those things that is going to actually fulfill this blessing of Joseph? and and and how do you then connect that into um some of the other things that happen in scripture where you even see things like in Psalm 1 and 2, there are things that are very obviously Devidic Messiah oriented and other things that are actually seem a lot like Josephite Messiah oriented when you understand this concept. What if you start to have that pulled together? And you mentioned it earlier, you know, I I think that's essentially what Ezekiel is doing with the two sticks prophecy. I think he's speaking to not only the coming together of the tribes, but the reuni reunification of the tribes is happening because of the reunification of the of the two messiah messianic roles in the Messiah in in the one person and that he is the one who brings about the reunification of of the tribes. Uh and and that to me is just like amazing. Yes. and and then you start to kind of go like, "Wow." And and you start searching through all these things and looking at these pictures and start seeing like there's just a whole lot more to this than the story you learn in Sunday school on the felt board, you know? Um so I just wanted to kind of connect into some of the some of the earlier origins of the idea at least to some people to say it does seem like this comes from somewhere and maybe this is some of the beginning just to give people a place to start. I love it. Um, and we will include I'll I'll go back and edit the description of this later. Um, we will include links to that book to um, Messiah Ben Joseph and then also to the exiled Messiah as well as our article on alternate media.com, the two messiahs. Before we go, gentlemen, we do need to wrap this up because Brad and I still have to go to the afterpartis. If you are a paid subscriber, please come join us. Um, we had one question from Eric and I we're gonna pose it to Joshua first and then we'll board. Uh, Joshua, who is your favorite church father? Oh man. Um, can I say mine first just to get a reaction from Josh? Yes, dude. Please. Origin. Origin. The origin and ovation. The greatest church fathers of all time. My understanding is the Eastern Orthodox Church loves origin. It's the Catholic. He's the greatest. It's it's it's complicated with origin, right? So, um there's there is no I I don't think there's a good argument to be made for anyone having a deeper knowledge of a lot of things and being able to connect in philosophy and understanding thing in multiple languages and and do like origin was a beast. Uh he he knew a lot of stuff and um and uh yeah, there there there's a lot there. obviously some issues that some people have and some of that came into church councils and things but um yeah it's it's hard to argue with h with how amazing he was and and and with his work in general. I think for me I tend to it's really hard. I I tend to walk this line like I actually thought about who to take on as a patron saint becoming Orthodox you because you know converting into it you you do that. Um and I ended up just sticking with Joshua because Joshua is a saint in the Orthodox church uh prophet Joshua right and u my priest was like you know he's already been praying for you your whole life. You might as well like stay stay there like it's this is a good patron site. Um, but for me, I I think if I were choosing uh a church father, it would probably end up being either Ius or Athanasius. Um, and you can see where each of those trajectories goes because, you know, Irenaeus ties into so much of this stuff. You you look into the way that he understood, you know, who who who was showing up to pe to Israel in the Old Testament, right? And and tying into a lot of the things. He has a lot of really neat things. He had a lot of things where he was fighting with with various groups of of gnostic heretics and and and pushing back on a lot of things where people were basically trying to say like, "Oh, Jesus just looked like he was human. He wasn't really, which is so funny because it's the opposite of what we think. Usually it's like, oh no, he couldn't he couldn't from a modern perspective. Oh, he couldn't possibly have been God, right? Um, from a Unitarian perspective, you're you're kind of taking that similar viewpoint but differently." Um, but they were arguing about whether he was even human, you know? It's just like a completely different thing. Um and then Athanasius obviously um you know on the incarnation is is huge. Um and especially in understanding things like atonement like it's really hard to to walk away from that book and think like PSA is the only thing I need. Um and um yeah he just there's so much so much there. Brad, do you have a favorite? [Laughter] Um, I don't know if I could say favorite, but uh the the one the one that I I I probably see the most commonality with uh would be Polycarp. Solid. That That's Yeah, I was going to say you would probably say Polycarp. Um Yeah, Josh, I honestly thought you were gonna say either Tatulian or Erenus. the uh um Yeah. So, I I was kind of shocked by yours. Yeah. Well, you know, what can I be if not shocking? So, I love it. Which Okay, so this is hilarious. Total side note, but um today, you know, in in the service, uh one of the readings was on uh on the prophet Elias, Elijah, um and talking about, you know, who he is and and and some of what he did. And so, our priest was asking us, and he's asking mostly the kids, right? Um, and of course, you know, I have to lean over in the middle of the service and just kind of say to my daughter like, "I'm pooping because of the the whole thing where Elijah's just like, "Maybe he's taking a nap. Maybe he's relieving himself." And so that's a joke that that that my my kids have taken on from from just how um amazing Elijah was in his insults to pagan gods and their and their boy was a troll. I love that. That whole commentary is one of my favorites. Yes. Oh, yes. Yeah. It's between that and like the midash about Abraham with T with uh with Nimrod. Like those those two are like just the the level of troll in both of those is just hilarious. Well, especially when Christians are like, "We have to be proper." And I'm like, "But the Bible's not." Bible. It literally says Saul went into a cave. Like my daughter just went through that story and her words were to relieve himself. I was like, "Yeah, he's taking a dump." And then and that whole diet tribe of Elijah, I'm just I I absolutely love it. So, gentlemen, this has been absolutely epic. We've gone almost an hour longer than we're supposed to. Thank you so much. And and what an incredible topic. This one for me. Uh Josh, I'm I'm glad you have such an interest in it because like this has been one I think from the first episode we did on on renovating faith of this as soon as we follow up you're like I would love to talk about that. That would be awesome. And and so I've been looking forward to this. Um it it's such a cool thing that if I think if Christianity could get a hold of it would be so transformative in our faith. And which is really why we do this. We talk about uh you know the the different lenses that affect our understanding of scripture and to understand the the nature of of the two comingings of Christ you know from from our perspective believing that that he was Mashiach Ben Ysef that he will be Mashiach Benavid and how everything that he did points to to the this need of reconciling not just Israel but even as it's spoken of in the prophets that he will reconcile the nations, that all of the world and and and I love one of the things I've seen not just from you but from several Eastern Orthodox people is this reconciliation of the cosmos that all of creation will be will come back to him and be reconciled to him. And it's just it's so beautiful. It's wonderful. Um and I would close by just saying may he return speedily in our days and as as is a prayer that's prayed I think daily uh by by Jews that he would come and I know we long for that day um when our faith becomes sight you know as an apologist I love the evidence for our faith but that moment when we stand before our Messiah and our God and our king and just to see it all and say praise him and you know to him be is do glory and honor and dominion it's going to be an incredible moment uh and I'm so excited for it and I'm thankful for you guys I'm thankful that even in the things we disagree on we can have fellowship that we can have this discourse and that's the point of this right it's that you know there are things that we all disagree on but we are brothers in Messiah we are servants of the the true the living God, the one that the creator of all that is the most high. And where we disagree, we disagree. And you know what? That's fun. We can have fun with him. And and and I think too many, specifically Christians, I think more than Jews, from my exposure, make their disagreements points of division rather than, you know what, cool. Why do you think that way? Teach me. And I love that about, you know, I watched a a debate between two rabbis. It was Rabbi Freriedman and and I don't remember who the other one was. And every time the other one got up, well, he's right, but but yeah. And then the other guy, well, he's right, but and the debate was what's more important, the the the don'ts, positive or negative commandments? Commandments. He's like, well, he's right, but and then the other guy, well, he's right, but well, he's right. I'm like, well, you can't both be right. that you're also right me and and that's why you know I love tonight when Josh you mentioned some things that Brad goes well I don't disagree with that like thank you Rabbi the original kings of the porcel right why not both absolutely and uh or or you know my favorite is um on on friends where he says Joey sandwich or sex put those hands together So, um, that that's my version of that. So, my wife's yelling at me for that comment. So, gold. All right. On that wonderful note of me being embarrassing and dumb. Um, please like and subscribe, visit our store, and we will absolutely buy Messiah. Joseph and the exiled Messiah. If you're on Tik Tok, go check out Will Walk and of course Brad's channel. I don't do anything on Tik Tok other than follow everybody and just have a good time. Um, Joshua, are are you doing podcast yet? I know you've talked about revamping yours. Oh, man. Yeah. I I keep I keep wanting to dive back into it and I keep getting asked to do other things and I keep saying yes. So, yes, I'll try to keep the the topics interesting. So, because we absolutely love having you. If you have a recommendation for a fourth person, uh, not that Will is a bad option, we are trying to find another Christian because Will has had to back out. Uh he's got a ton going on. I I do rag him, but I want to give him props. He's a new father. Um he's got two kids. He's a full-time minister. Uh basically doing multiple like at least two jobs at the church, if not more, as well church split. And uh he's back in school pursuing, I believe, his masters. So, um he's had to back out and and we do love him. We're not you as much shade as we throw at Will. Um I think we all love Will. And I I assume by by Christian in this context you mean trinitarian because you're looking for a contrast to your approach to Christianity. Yeah. I'm too similar to Brad. So it's like why have a you know with Brad we have Orthodox rabbitic. I lean that way but I'm also you know Baptist. Um you're Eastern Orthodox. something to kind of round out this conversation. What book found basically is no Calvinist wants to be ecumenical with us. Um Brad, I'll have Bo come on. He's a Jehovah Witness. No, I mean, yeah, it's all right. Anyway, join us. Y and um for everybody that's here, thank you for tuning in. This has been an incredible conversation. We look forward to joining you. Uh come back every second Sunday of no third Sunday, sorry, third Sunday of every month. We try to do this conversation when we can. And um thank you so much for tuning in. [Music] [Music] [Music]