[Music] hey good evening I'm Tom yamas our coverage of the first and only vice presidential debate on NBC news now is just getting started my colleague hly Jackson will join me in just a moment I'm live from the spin room in New York City where we'll hear from some top advisers to both campaigns and from undecided Battleground voters the big question were any Minds Chang tonight you see this handshake right here between the two candidates in a debate that kicked off with a question on the unfolding situation in the Middle East with Senator JD Vance defending former president Trump's approach to the region while he was President they needed to recognize that if they got out of line the United States Global Leadership would put stability and peace back in the world and Governor Tim Walls attacking the former president saying many of his former National Security advisers have spoken out against him it's those that were closest to Donald Trump that understand how dangerous he is when the world is this dangerous the debate also featuring some tense moments such as Vance going after the moderators after they tried to fact check him about the legal status of Haitian immigrants in his home State Springfield Ohio does have a large number of Haitian migrants who have legal status temporary protected Senator we have so much to get to I think it's important because turn out of the economy maret the rules were that you guys going to fact check and since you're factchecking me I think it's important to say what's actually going on as for governor walls he stumbled through an answer on some discrepancies in past comments he made on China seeming to admit he misspoke in the past about when he actually visited the country I've tried to do the best I can but I've not been perfect and I'm a knucklehead at times there were a couple of heated back and forths including with Wall's Challenge bance on his non-answer about who won the 2020 election listen I would just out that did he lose the 2020 election Tim I'm focused on the future did kamla Harris censor Americans from speaking their mind in the wake of the 2020 covid situation that is a daming that is a damning non-answer but surprising for this day and age we did hear a times where they agreed I actually think I agree with you I think you want to solve this problem but I don't think that kamla Harris does much of what the senator said right there I'm in agreement with him on this Tim just said something that I agree with I agree with a lot of what senator an said about what's happening his running mate though does not and that's the problem all right joining us now live in the spin room is NBC's Garrett H and Garrick I understand that Senator JD Vance has just entered maybe just to the left of us I I think you got eyes on him tell us what you can see yeah Tom he's sitting down uh just behind me on the Fox News set as you can see the intimate confines of the spin room have gotten even more crowded here uh since the debate concluded and the circuit started to come in none of them drawing more attention than Donald Trump Jr the president's son and Vance himself coming in you won't be surprised to know the Trump campaign is thrilled with JD Vance's performance you heard that from several of their senior advisers you heard it from Donald Trump Jr I expect you're going to hear it uh from JD Vance himself and we certainly heard it from Donald Trump throughout the course of the debate commenting over and over again on Truth social about how well he thought Vance was doing how poorly he thought the moderators were doing and I'll just say Tom I think there sort of two key things if we get an opportunity to talk to JD Vance about this tonight questions left unanswered the Trump campaign and tonight Vance's inability to really explain the mass deportations policy that they have put out here time and time again how they will do that without separating families I've heard Vance take that question repeatedly I heard the same answer tonight that he always gives that lacks a lot of context and information and then on Obamacare and what happened to Obamacare during the Trump Administration a wholesale and complete rewriting of history when it comes to the Trump administration's effort to get rid of that law I covered all of it on Capitol Hill JD Vance's position is 100% inconsistent with lived reality of what the Trump Administration did with Obamacare uh during that time period I hope I'll get a chance to ask him about that tonight but as you can see uh there are quite a lot of people trying to ask the same questions I am and he may not take any of those questions Beyond those that are going to be asked to him on the Fox News set Garrett I'm I'm curious has the Trump campaign at all mentioned how this debate sort of felt almost pre- trumpish in the sense that there was not any name calling it didn't get nasty and for the most part both candidates were pretty civil yeah I I haven't heard anything specifically from the Trump campaign on that Tom but it is striking I mean if you go back to any debate before 2015 this is more like what you would have expected candidates looking for opportunities to agree with each other looking for opportunities to appear more civil looking for opportunities to raise the sort of tenor and tone of the dialogue to a higher place we got some of that tonight uh in what is I think you know for many voters probably feels more like an extra credit project uh watching the VP debate which almost never moves the needle in actual elections again tonight maybe one for the super fans uh but those who turned in I think got a lot of substance out of what happened on stage tonight Garrett H the extra credit project I have a feeling Garrett maybe worked on a lot of those anyways Garrett we thank you and we're going to check back with you let us know if you end up getting Senator Vance I have Kelly O'Donnell here with us right now Kelly I'm sure the Democrats in the White House are spinning you pretty hard what is their take on the debate I I think they have to be somewhat happy because talking to sources on both sides this is the first debate out of the three where you have Republicans saying we won and you have Democrats saying we won the last two that were clear winners one of the things that I'm struck by is what you were just talking to Garrett about and that is the tone and that these candidates did speak to each other in a civil way and what I've been hearing from Harris walls Associates is that Governor walls didn't want a food fight he he wanted to make the appearance of leadership and who are they going after of those extra credit Watchers they want those who have not made up their mind and so appealing uh to those who might not want to see some of the ugliness of uh our national discourse uh certainly governor walles was nervous at the beginning they acknowledged that right out of the gate also Governors having covered so many of them are most comfortable with domestic issues because that's what they're dealing with that first question early on in the debate uh dealing with today's events in the Middle East was not a comfortable space for governor walls but they believe that when he talked about the issues relating to January 6 and women's health care that he scored very well among the voter groups they were watching and they believe that his sort of normal guy Vibe was something that voters could relate to yeah it was clear in the beginning he was very nervous stumbled a couple times but then when it got to the domestic issues he felt much more comfortable that is clear we were nervous watching because the stakes are high right what was the what was the take on the the the response to the questions over Hong Kong and and him Mis misrepresenting what actually happened well he sort of got there with I misspoke at the end and took a lot of time to get there and so it's been one of the criticisms of Governor walls that he is not always careful with his words that he sometimes uh describes life events uh in a way that might be adding a little something extra uh certainly they recognized that he needed to clean that up they believe that he did that and that normal people do similar things in the political space you don't always get a lot of uh credit for that uh what he did not do is he didn't pivot and talk about Donald Trump and his record on uh truth telling or not so that might have been an area where he could have approached it differently but they knew that was going going to be an issue it's actually interesting you bring that up because a couple Republican strategist pointed out to me that Vance actually didn't attack him on that and the thinking might have that Advance dra it would have drawn that on the former president Smith truths as well we thank you so much Kelly Good To Be With You Stand by for us I'm here in the spin room as we've been saying but my co-anchor Hale Jackson is over in our 30 Rock Studios as our coverage continues and H I got to tell you I've been hearing from a lot of viewers I've been hearing from people in the political space who they're just calling the debate they're calling it refreshing they're saying that you know it was dense with policy was definitely different but they're also calling it refreshing because it it it reminded them of a Time sort of pre 2016 2015 when the debates would get so heated and sort of Donald Trump uh sort of turned the political world upside down I mean you and I were out there uh you know pounding the pavement during those 2016 days time I remember for some of those early Republican primary debates where you know it was spicy before we knew how spicy it could get so interesting moments there and I'm looking behind you there because I understand that now JD Vance is on the spin room floor I'll check with our control room you may be able to see him Tom he had just done I think a hit on Fox News he is getting ready to get over onto the spin room floor uh we are going to watch to see if he speaks Governor walls we understand has now left the area and I got to say to this is probably the closest you and I have been for one of these post- debate shows CU you're just a few blocks away from me here in Midtown Manhattan in New York City I'm here alongside our Meet the Press moderator Kristen Welker and our chief White House correspondent Peter Alexander NBC's Chief political analyst Chuck Todd is joining us as well so there's a lot to get into here um and Kristen and Peter I'll start with you and then Chuck I want you to jump in as well uh this is obviously maybe the last word that we will see in a prime time stage from anybody in this ticket here one of the things that we all talked about prior to this debate happening were the favorability numbers right Governor walls has the highest of any person on the ticket Senator Vance has the lowest did anything change that tonight and does likability matter well look likeability could matter around the edges particularly when you are dealing with such a close race because any and everything could impact voters when a race is this close particularly if you look at the polls in the Battleground States it was very clear that Senator Vance knew that his challenge tonight was to be more likable and H I got texts from Republicans who they very happy he had an incredibly strong night and Democrats who acknowledge he came off as likable on some of the issues by the way that they felt as though wals should have been on offense and Vance should have been on defense like abortion one Democrat saying to me that he felt as though there were some missed opportunities there on wal's part having said all of that I do do think that the final moment of the debate will be one of the most significant one that will Loom over the rest of the debate which is when Governor wal asked Vance Point Blank did Donald Trump lose the election and he said I want to focus on the future and it of course he called that a non-answer and the significance of that I think because democracy has been rising as a a key issue for voters so when you think about what voters care about that is one of them and again when you talk about does this matter it matters because this race is so close and winning over or alienating some of those undecided voters around the edges can can make a difference candidly I would say that the Democrats are probably happy that the presidential debate matters a lot more than the vice presidential debate clearly JD Vance was a much more polished Communicator for those who have said you know he may be unlikable he delivered the message that he wanted to get across tonight most of the time you can agree or disagree with what he was saying but I think that's the biggest takeaway here I think there were two things that struck me in particular one is they try to determine who this was a referendum on Tim Walls tried to make this election a referendum on Donald Trump and the way he created this country during his time in office JD Vance tried to make it a referendum on the Biden and Harris Administration all these times saying that this is Harris's policiy unlike Donald Trump didn't drop Joe Biden's name a whole bunch of times he focused very much on kamla Harris but at the end of the day I mean think about it tonight we said we had you know Taylor Swift's name was mentioned once Ukraine was mentioned zero times right at the end of the day I think think that the decisions are going made by big issues and most importantly how they are viewed by as we look at Tim Walls by these others so as DC people we know what it's like to try to get a slice of pizza in town New York City Pizza nothing like it he is at New York Pizza getting a late night snack and an off the Record capacity let me uh what they call an OTR stop I should say Let me listen in real quick and see if we can hear y all right so he's picking out a slice we've got the audio up here just in case he takes any questions does he cut it with a fork and knife that can be a politically advantageous or that's a deep pull Peter for the for the younger folks watching Chuck let me bring you into the conversation as we keep an eye on this we're of course looking to see uh Senator Vance over in the spin room here what's interesting is while there is a discussion and I've heard this from folks who I was in touch with on text during the debate a discussion of policy a lot of folks thought this was substantive I would I would put this to you there were a lot of policy questions there was discussion about various policies there weren't necessarily a whole lot of super clear policy answers on some of these outstanding inquiries that that that came up no they were there was a lot of polite word salad um both by Governor walls and Senator Vance where they would be respectful of it and they would come say something about agreement Chuck I'm going to be so annoying I'm sorry he's talking to the report oh God we missed it I'm sorry it's like one of these awkward things right like he's going to pick out the pizza he's going to say how he thinks he did in the debate we want to catch that but it's like this you know audio situation here so keep keep going I might interrupt you again no worries no worries no hey it's live TV uh that's the whole point the real question is will he fold the pizza right and eat it that way you got to fold it in half you're going to get the big floppy right and you better get a big floppy slice right the double you know for me I have flashbacks to cazis all right that's what that's what a kid of the 80s went to a mall and got a cazis but anyway um but going back it was Your Right In fairness look I thought the the issue Matrix that CBS came up with was was terrific there were really only two issues we didn't touch on that I thought were missing one was the threat to China to the Pacific Rim and one of course is the threat of Russia and Ukraine but we got to a lot of domestic issues or at least they you know certainly the questions were there uh and they were they were almost afraid of the details look Vance was a much better performer I think we knew that going in this is what he's this is pretty much what he's done his adult life is talk and debate right he hasn't had a lot of other experiences and I say this with respect I mean that's what a US senator does and he was quite good at this and I'd also bring up one other issue I think you can tell the difference which candidate does plenty of TV interviews even with tough interviewers like Kristen Welker and which candidate does not do tough interviews with people like Kristen Welker it's Tim Walls right and walls totally face planted on that question about his exagger his fish story about t square and I think had he done a few interviews that with the mainstream media with not just with uh with with with people that want him to succeed he'd have gotten better at these answers I think Vance's performance was better because he faced challenging interviews and you know there's no better debate prep for these presidential and vice presidental vice presidential candidates than a good tough accountability interview and I think the har walls campaign is playing a a a prevent defense that is uh I I I think they're there's a reason why KLA Harris wants another debate she needs another format and if they're going to sit here and be afraid of doing media interviews uh they need something and I think walls is uneven performance I think he had some strong moments uh particularly when he was Prosecuting a case against Trump but I think his inability to defend the Biden Harris Administration very well at times and of course his face plan on on the fish story about tanam and square I think is a reminder that you know they haven't they haven't done much batting practice here with with tough interviewers which is interesting Chuck and just to give folks a sense of it um I want to I if we have that live shot still up if you were looking at JD Vance in the spin room that's because he's uh currently doing I think a cable news interview we expect him we think it is likely that he will come down on the floor he'll probably chat with Garrett he might stop by and see Tom I don't know we're going to take you back to the spin room when that happens as of course Governor walls has just stopped with his ice to get a late night slice of pizza I think here in Midtown uh New York Pizza not too far from where we are to pick up on Chuck's point I was struck Peter by Jens saki former somebody who you know well from from covering the White House former of course White House staffer former campaign staffer she said just this exactly that she believes that they are doing a disservice to governor wals and to vice president Harris by not getting him out more when he was the guy as she noted and as we all knowed who came up with the whole weird attack doing one of these cable news interviews on Donald Trump in the first place yeah and it was that weird attack right do you say that went viral that made it very conversational folks in likable by a lot of Americans frankly as they got to know him he was plus 13 as they say 13 points more in terms of the people that liked him than those who didn't like him that's a positive thing but you didn't really get to see a lot of that guy in the conversations we've been having with people close to him I think candidly the way that he was prepared for that debate there's going to be some frustration not around some of those people who knew him best he acknowledged going into tonight on nights like this he's not as good of a debater none of that really matters though at the end of the day this was the high watermark for both of these candidates tomorrow the conversation again is about Donald Trump Anda Harris right so he wasn't able to take advantage on it the question I think really more than anything for me right now Isla Harris's numbers were as good as they have been so far two weeks after her debate now we're getting further and further away from her debate we're seeing a little bit of erosion in her numbers right now and with now with crisis going on from the the floods in the Southeast due to the hurricane Helen with what's happening overseas between Israel Iran Hezbollah and Hamas right now where does she find another moment to sort of go viral to get people's attention again I'm looking away from you Peter not because I'm not absolutely hanging on every word but because I'm looking at what Senator Vance is talking about here because he was asked about something that Chuck and you have just talked about which is this idea that perhaps Governor walls felt nervous at parts of the debate and Senator van says he didn't notice it he says he himself was nervous because he acknowledges this is the biggest stage of his life he tried not to focus on the demeanor too much but an interesting acknowledgement there from the senator it is an interesting acknowledgement it goes back to the civility that we've been talking about throughout the evening that this was a remarkably civil debate particularly in the wake of the debate that we all covered of former president Trump and vice president kamla Harris I do think to Peter's point the question becomes about strategy now because the polls are getting Tighter and with thanks to Chuck for his comments about doing a tough interview will she start to give more interviews does the campaign decide that that is now going to be part of their equation in order to move the needle and in order to try to G regain the momentum that she clearly had in the after she was first at the top of the ticket and after her debate with former president Trump so I think that that's going to be a big question we'll have to see what they decide but I do think go back to the Iran uh exchange the very first exchange of this entire debate by the way top of mine to Peter's Point very newsy break October surprise here we are with an October surprise it framed the entire debate in some ways because that was the moment where you saw both of them trying to say you're the incumbent no you meaning former president Trump is the incumbent vice president kamla Harris is the incumbent she's currently in the White House and it was very clear that that's going to be the strategy of these two campaigns moving forward who has ownership of this idea of being a change candidate or not I think Chuck is still with us because the interesting thing here we've been saying this 35 days until election day right but keep in mind some voters in Battleground states are already getting their early ballots you've got uh Pennsylvania Michigan Wisconsin coming up in the next two weeks you've got Arizona Georgia and Nevada all starting their early inperson and mail and voting I mean voters are out there right we don't have to wait until November 5th for people to start making their decisions and so all of these become data points to feed in to folks who are getting out there in these critical States yeah no I think you're exactly right this is the complaint Donald Trump is making the argument hey people are already voting it's too late for us to debate again you'll remember in 2016 and 2020 of course he did debate after people were already voting here but I do think I think that KLA Harris is the one frankly that would benefit more by another debate not just because she did so well in the first one but really she's the one who's still in a way introducing herself to some of those undecided voters those voters that have yet to come around I started the conversation at the beginning of this if you weren't with us then I'll repeat it now which is the Harris folks that I'm speaking to they say that little sliver of Voters the undecided ones are still voting on they say they are young they're most often male and they are racially diverse but it's a small sliver and it's people who are not watching tonight's debate you got to find those people where they are and the Harris campaign is quietly trying to do that are they able to get to them in time for uh November 5th I'm curious to see what that focus group that our friend and colleague Kate Snow sat down with had to say but before we do that let me take it back to Tom in the spin room there where it is getting I know Super Active Tom talk me through it hey hie great to see you again I want to bring in senator Amy kashar she's the Democrat of course from Minnesota whose good friend is Governor Tim Walls he's your Governor how do you do tonight um I thought he did a great job he followed his Northstar and he was blunt and he was true to himself I we've always said he's not going to be slick he's not going to pick like the longest words and the most perfect orator but he made his point on really three big things Affordable Care Act you got JD van scrambling around saying hey we can we're protected from uh getting thrown off our insurance if we have a pre-existing condition that's the affordable ha act that Donald Trump is trying to overturn on abortion Tim Walls clear on standing up for the freedom of women to make their own decisions on their health care and JD Vance uh doubling down on Donald Trump's position which was overturning roie white you know um Democrats had said that he was nervous and it looked like he was a little nervous right off off the get-go when the debate started to be honest with me did you get a little worried as well because it was a rough rough first 30 seconds it's like having your brother out there okay and you get that first question I think anyone I I was on those presidential debate stages and I would watch my colleagues you know jab into the air drink tons of water before they went out there it's never easy and uh while JD Vance was on an international book tour and as a lawyer you know Tim Walls was a teacher and then he did a great job in Congress one of the most bipartisan and then goes into the governor's office so it's a very different track let's let's roll two moments we're going to start with that moment when he was asked about China and his comments about Hong Kong and then after we'll play another moment let's roll the the Hong Kong stu okay the question was can you explain the discrepancy all I said on this was is I got there that summer and misspoke on this so I I will just that's what I've said so I was in Hong Kong and China during the Democracy protest went in and from that I learned a lot of what needed to be in in governance so the question was about comments he's made twice now about saying that he was in H Kong during the Tina men Square protest he was not he acknowledged that uh but this is the third or fourth time he said something that hasn't been true or it's been an exaggeration does Governor Wallace have a problem with the truth no uh this was a mistake he was there that year it was a few months off and of course there was much discussion at that time um about what happened in tan square and so what I look at it is he made an error he admitted he made an error unlike Donald Trump who wouldn't even admit that Joe Biden won the election that's a pretty different thing yeah um and he then goes on you know in an incredible way to serve our country to uh be our governor so I just don't see this it's it's nothing but an error everyone makes mistakes and what's most important to me is not if you make one mistake about a few months off but if you are unwilling as JD Vance was to admit the results of an election what does that mean for our democracy going forward yeah that was quite the moment at the end of the debate I do want to ask you yeah about uh the issue of abortion because it came a lot during this debate it was one of the most talked about issues here was a moment for Governor Wallace let's listen the fact of the matter is how can we as a nation say that your life and your rights as basic as the right to control your own body is determined on geography do Democrats believe the issue of abortion care is going to make or break this election do you think that's what it's going to come down if if you pick a single issue at the end of the day when it comes to swing voters when it comes to some of those Suburban moms in those swing states is it going to be over abortion access it's not the only issue people really worried about costs and I believe that KLA Harris and Tim Wall's economic plan is the right way to go and focus on Child Care and housing but this is clearly part of people's freedoms and you see it from the Prairies of Kansas to a 13-point difference in Ohio on a referendum to the legislative races in Virginia the governor's race in Kentucky a congressional race in Alaska all over over our country people are standing up whether they are Democrats Republicans or Independents saying we think we agree with Tim wals that women should have the right to make their own decision about the healthcare and when JD van starts talking about oh my heart is with you these women who families where a woman has died or bled out in the parking lot no your heart's not with someone if your policies are heartless and that is the problem with their position on abortion be honest with me here what's keeping you up at night about this election and I asked you that because the the race is Razor type but we look at the polls in the Battleground States Harris has an advantage might be maybe half a point a point in other states maybe two Trump is on top but if that is the case we know that Trump voters are under pulled it's happened in 2016 and 2020 are you worried that Trump may have the advantage right now does that keep you up at night I just don't see that I see after Joe Biden made the selfless decision to get out of the race you saw a dramatic change in some of those swing states where Democrats were behind KLA Harris United our party brought in um Republicans to speak at the convention she's got Dick Cheney supporting her Liz Cheney supporting her Jeff Flake just announced he's supporting her the former senator from Arizona Republican senator Jimmy McCain I mean you just go through the numbers here so she is reaching out to people in a big way that's why she is pulling ahead and what I lose sleep at night is Just we only have 35 days you know we've got to keep getting out there we got to keep the information out there and I'm cheering the inauguration no matter who wins so I've also when I hear JD Vance out there and and won't agree to certifying an election in minute 90 and I think about what we went through on January 6 at 3:30 in the morning walking over that broken glass to finally get that election those results certified it was Mike Pence me and Roy blunt I don't want to go through that again and I want to have a president that respects our democracy unions are so important across the country especially in your state especially to the Democratic Coalition are you worried all about this Port strike um anyone would be worried uh because not politically worried you're worried that you want to make this work you want to make it work for the economy work and I know that President Biden vice president Harris uh secretary Budaj have been doing everything uh to try to bring the two sides together and that's the right thing to do Senator clar thank you so much for joining us and answering all our questions we appreciate it yeah I'm going to send it back to you in the studio in New York all right Tom thank you very much we've been talking about what voters think about what we all just watched over the course of the last 90 minutes to find out let's bring at our NBC News senior National correspondent Kate Snow who watched that debate with voters some of whom Kate have settled on who they want some of whom are undecided but all of them live in the uh the the great Commonwealth of Pennsylvania you know my home state Kate uh talk me for what you're hearing from folks that's right yeah and and they all live within the confin right around Pittsburgh and we're in Pittsburgh right now and I have to say this is alagan County hi and you probably know this but last election there were 25 minutes municipalities here where the vote was within 5% so I mean it is tight in this County and you all know that you all feel that there's a lot of pressure on these swing areas um to be clear some of you had made up your minds going into the debate we had two really very much Pro Harris you were probably for Harris you guys were a little you were more unsure and then we had two people who were really considering Donald Trump including Brian and Brian I want to go to you because it's been fascinating to get your read on what happened tonight because you it seemed like you went in sort of wanting to like JD Vance and thinking about Trump yeah so so I I really did uh you're right about that um he just danced around a lot of questions um and uh I I think I said earlier that um you know Walsh was sort of like plating to the people um and Vance was just sort of dancing around questions so you know my opinion on things really hasn't changed too much uh tonight but um you're drawn to Trump because of economic considerations that's the big thing for you but everything else it seems like you're you're maybe drawn to Harris yes yeah certainly so so very um sort of socially liberal I guess um I mean I thought if you were going to say who won tonight I would say that that the Tim Walls won um I wonder would everybody say that walls won this debate show of hands no pressure okay not sure Claire CLA you I don't know what it means to win a debate well that's true I don't know what that def that's a fair point that's a fair point who who you thought did better I guess I should say but you're you came into this not knowing you said to me a few minutes ago you're still not sure who you're going to vote for you may not vote at all and I remember during the the big section of the debate that was about abortion you you were having some strong reactions to some of that again it's very hard to look at two men telling what to do uh decisions are between a woman and her doctor um and there should be no one that interferes with that um and I think it's just kind of ridiculous that we that we are even in support if if Donald Trump or Joe Biden cared about this country neither neither one of them would have won for election right we wouldn't be in this situation they're 80 years old they Joe Biden has already you know rescinded his his domination and everything so we're we're talking about two people who probably should have run it all we're talking about two parties who gave us two candidates like again if you cared about us we're like oh does that person care about me no they don't because they wouldn't be there if they did and they would have they would have passed the torch to someone who is is younger is more capable is less volatile it could have could have won a a a real pass the torch to Harris ultimately right but that's not like did I mean I didn't get a really vote for anyone in a primary election for either candidate and stuff like don't we love seeing a big panel of Democratic Party you know candidates in a big panel of Republican party candidates and making our own choices instead once we again got handed two people and that was that was our decision it's not like we had a real political discourse or rhetoric around who was going to be our next president Merill you were really reacting to the very end of the debate when they were talking about January 6th and they were talking about what happened on that day and you're you're a very Pro haris person even coming in tonight so what was it that was bothering you as you watch that bothered me was how JD Vance pivoted the question and turned it into you know really defended Donald Trump's position on January 6th and the fact that he he wouldn't he he tried to avoid the answer but it was really more about not recognizing you know I I wear this yellow pin for the hostages that are being held in Gaza Donald Trump calls the insurrectionist that have been jailed after court trials in they're now being jailed in Washington he calls them hostages I find that incredibly incredibly offensive they're not hostages they're prisoners they're people who were convicted and put in jail and they were convicted of causing an Insurrection of of violating the capital of the people's house and that there's even an attempt to justify that or turn it into something calling them patriots I find incredibly incredibly offensive John I think you had a similar reaction um yeah the one point I thought was telling was that JD Vance U tried to say that he was defending Trump's right he wanted to have a debate in the Public Square and then January 20th happened and he left the office and he completely y yada the Insurrection at the capital and I thought it was interesting that in his argument for having that debate um he says that it's our freedom of speech to allow misinformation which it was interesting because most of his responses I thought were you know he sounded well he's very well poised but they were like Dodges and mistruths and and he got away with that throughout the night whereas walls I thought uh responded very quickly with interesting points with Statistics and actual facts that uh supported his argument Rona I want to ask you because on the issue of of Israel and foreign policy you were thinking about voting for Trump you said a couple weeks ago you were really strongly think considering voting for Trump and now you're not so sure what did you not hear tonight was there something JD Vance could have said to make you go yeah that's what I'm doing I mean I think that if uh if either of them would have made very very clear statements about support for our strongest Ally in the Middle East support for Israel about ending any kind of appeasement policy uh toward Iran uh or toward other islamist regimes toward ensuring that we are well he did say I mean uh Vance said peace through strength I mean obviously it's just like a slogan but to the extent that like that there is a party that would actually live that slogan that's something that I find really really valuable and something that I would be paying attention to um getting the American hostages out I mean the reality is I don't know if Trump would have done a better job but we have had a Biden Administration and there are American hostages not just Israeli hostages there are American hostages that are langu ing in Gaza there are Americans who have been killed in Gaza and I don't think the administration is doing anywhere near enough to get them out I should mention that both Rona and Merill you're part of the Jewish Community here in Pittsburgh which is a sizable Community for the size of the city that it is I I want to turn to you Brandon because you were basically with Harris you're now you feel even more strongly that way I think if I'm reading you right after the debate and and you were talking to me about immigration because you work with nonprofit who help immigrants among other things right you work with a lot of different nonprofits in town what what did you hear on housing and and the immigrants effect on housing that you you were you were talking to me about how you didn't appreciate that well number one Vance uh kin immigration to the housing crisis which is in my opinion dishonest uh that that is not something that is uh prevalent to affect everybody across the board What's Happening Here is he's he's putting more fear on this and he's only talking about the southern border and when I hear the southern border obviously I hear the Latino community so that's just more fearmonger we what we see is people trying to acquire Equity what we see is people trying to buy a home people who are trying to avoid experiencing homelessness and unfortunately that that's that's not directly linked to the immigration uh in the way the Vance is talking about it because these the illegal immigrants are not sitting in the sea Suites denying Home Loans they're not sitting in the sea Suites denying these opportunities where people are trying to get Equity where people are trying to uh uh put their family in a safe environment because uh being housed goes beyond just simply having a home but it goes to being safe also Brandon thank you thank you to all of you for staying up really late tonight hie I have to say this is a late night for everybody U it's not a scientific it's not a scientific sample but it's interesting to hear what a group of people thought fascinating and I hope that somebody is brewing up a pot of coffee for all of you so Kate thank you please are thanks to all of them for staying up late with us tonight here on NBC news thank you thank you Kate Snow let me bring back in Chuck Todd and Kristen Welker who are both with us Christ and I'll start with you in reaction to what we heard from that voter panel I mean this is that's what it's about right is is what do people in these key Battleground States like where Kate is what do they think and how are they going to vote well I I think what's interesting is that you didn't hear a lot of them say that they were overwhelmingly swayed by Senator JD Vance who as we are saying as I'm you got a number of texts I got a number of texts saying that he from a performance standpoint had the stronger night but if you listen to those voters that's not exactly what they were focused on and and I did think it was really notable to hear from the voter at the end there who said that the January 6th exchange did really bother her it's a sign that that that exchange that happened at the very end of the debate is resonating with some of those undecided voters could that help her to make her final decision it seems as though it helped to push her a little bit toward the Harris walls Camp yeah uh Chuck let me come to you because there's a phrase that you said at the beginning of our coverage here that is sticking with me and it is polite word salad is something that you heard a lot of right um which I think is is is an interesting description but there were some moments that went beyond that uh into the territory of revisionist history when it came to some of the comments that Senator van made about January 6th for example and some of the comments on a topic that came up a lot which is Healthcare came up a lot of course with voters that we talked to came up a lot on the debate stage there with Senator Vance suggesting that former president Trump looked to salvage Obamacare when in reality the opposite was true of course repealing Obamacare as you know was a core plank of of the Trump administration at the time how do you how do you square that Chuck well you know and listening to the to the um voters that were watching with Kate you know there was something else about watching tonight that struck me while I thought Vance present you know if we were assessing JD Vance versus Tim Walls we'd say JD Vance did better than Tim Walls but what if I told you your job was to make the case for your ticket or prosecute a case against the other ticket and if you scored the debate that way I'd argue walls was much more aggressive at Prosecuting a case against Trump he did it very effectively on Healthcare the moment you're bringing up versus Vance who seemed at times I think trying to improve his own image um was did not certainly attacked Harris at times and would do this odd like well I I think Tim's serious about this but I don't know if Harris is right you know he would Shield him from this but I was struck by look I think that the Trump campaign has some work to do to reattach Biden's brand to Harris I assume assed Vance would be doing more of that tonight and he didn't walls seem to be more focused on improving Harris right rather than himself so and I think sometimes in these VP debates and frankly all presidential debates we all can get caught up in style the voters are listening for specific right every voter you know of doesn't do this for they have a couple of issues they're listening for right and I think on the the three or four issues that matter the most I do think walls seem to be more prepared and aggressive and going after Trump right not Vance but Trump and using Vance as a foil to do it than Vance did with walls and and I think it it's when I heard those comments from the focus group it it reminded me that boy you know did Vance do enough of the frankly what a vp's job usually is a running mate's job usually is is you got to play the hatchet man and he didn't whip out the hatchet tonight mm Chuck Todd uh super interesting Chuck thank you let me take you back to the spin room now because well we are about an hour now past the end of the debate uh Tom yamus knows that the spinning is in full effect if you will hey friend yeah we're also waiting for some bigname guests that are going to join us live here in our special coverage uh in the meantime we'll go to another big time correspondent while we wait uh and that's Garrett H Garrett my question to you tonight is is this do we honestly think that the Trump campaign is done with debates was this the last debate of this election cycle I think if JB Vance had done worse tonight the odds would go up that Trump would debate again but I do think the campaign is very satisfied uh with his performance here tonight look in a lot of ways JD Vance can be a better spokesperson for Trump than Trump certainly on the debate stage he was he doesn't step on rakes he doesn't kind of walk into some of these trap questions in the same way that Donald Trump does he hits the trumpan points in a smoother way he also made up for example a fanfiction history of Obamacare almost on the spot about what Donald Trump did to rescue Obamacare that wholly did not happen the Trump campaign doesn't see that as a negative they think they sort of win the argument on something like that but I think as long as Donald Trump feels like the race is close and as long as he feels like he is his own best spokesman which he often does the door remains at least partially open to another debate yeah Garrett and what are you hearing from the Trump campaign as far as how Vance did tonight are you mentioned earlier they they were very happy were they surprised tone of the debate that it wasn't you know the name calling wasn't as ugly as other debates we've seen in the past um I think no I don't think they were particularly surprised by that because I think it's clear that JD Vance came in with that as a strategy that he was going to be a little bit more understated tonight and that he was going to I think read the room to a certain extent and not come you know fully gloves off for uh Tim Walls when the situation didn't call for it I think it might have looked excessive basically had two men on stage trying to out Midwest nice each other at different points here but I think from the Trump campaign's perspective it was still effective for Vance he was still able to go after KLA Harris on the things that mattered and really sort of go through or around uh Tim Walls it was not nearly as much about Tim Walls except for the exchanges about uh you know the abortion bill in Minnesota for example much more focused on the top of the ticket and when that person's not on the stage with you it can affect the tenor of the discussion and I think we saw that tonight there definitely was a lot of niess on that stage all right Garrett we appreciate all your reporting with me now live former president Trump's son and Executive Vice President of the Trump organization Donald Trump Jr Don great to have you here tonight thanks for being here first question to you Senator Vance is your guy that's what you put out on Twitter today how do you do uh I thought it was a master class uh you know I I know they went after him so hard for a few months and even some of the Republican sort of establishment class uh but I've gotten to know him over the last few years his life story his background everything was just uh he's just an incredible guy and you know I heard you guys talking about sort of tenor and demeanor the reality is the tenor and demeanor that you saw tonight from JD Vance that's actually who he is you know again you know I understand what they do they've done it to me they do it to my father they'll vilify you and and make you the you know a terrible person that's who he actually is I mean is a very wellth thought out guy he understands the policy he gets into the details uh you know almost to you a wonky level I mean I think it felt like he had a better command of the policies that Tim walz actually signed into law than Tim wals himself uh it was funny I watching and I commented on Twitter you know I'm seeing Tim wall sort of nodding in agreement to literally everything JD was saying I was like I think he's going to be a trump Vance voter uh you know based on that debate so I thought it was a master class performance uh just Flawless you and your dad are both Fighters you've gotten aggressive over the last couple election Cycles you're not afraid to get to go there did you want him to get more aggressive or were you okay with him I I don't think he needed to I mean there's a time again you know I I get aggressive because you know when I'm put into a situation that requires it I mean for years I was called an agent of Russia they wanted to try me for treason a crime punishable by death I did 50 hours of congressional testimony uh for those things you know Hunter Biden the laptop was Russian disinformation according to all the intelligence a it turns out it wasn't uh you know I don't think I'd have gotten the hunter Biden treatment uh it turns out everything they accused me of he was doing and far worse so I understand that difference you lie about me that way I'll fight that's who I am that's who my father is doesn't mean it has to be that way and again I think you saw a lot of that decorum tonight so I was actually glad to see it cuz I'd love to see more of that in the political space part of Senator JD Vance things that you guys liked about him was his personal story he mentioned fentanyl tonight and his mother how she fought drug addiction let's listen to that I had a mother who struggled with opioid addiction and has gotten clean I don't want people who are struggling with addiction to be deprived of their second chance because kamla Harris LED in fit andol into our communities at record levels so you've got to stop the bleeding how did that life story sort of weigh into your decision to kind of back Senator fans because look there there were a lot of qualified Republicans that were up for the Nom nominee to be the nominee Senator Marco Rubio senator Tim Scott Governor Doug bergham but this was your guy and you're getting a lot of credit for bringing him on the ticket why listen I I got to know that story we sort of joke about it like I grew up literally down the road here on the 70th floor of Trump Tower overlooking Central Park he grew up in Appalachia and yet we still have sort of a similar worldview you know in talking to him about that he's someone who understands that cycle of poverty and addiction he broke through he's living the ultimate American dream I mean he got out of a household with addiction and poverty man you goes into the Marine Corps comes back goes to Yale law school starts an incredible business gets into politics becomes a United States Senator I mean that's the American dream my father and JD Vance want Americans they want to give them the chance to thrive again not barely survive that's what we're doing right now people are barely surviving we see that in cost we see that in what's going on around the world we see that in even honestly and I'll call it out on the Republican side many Republicans just wanting to go to war over things that they can't even articulate you know why you know Ukraine for example we spent 250 billion we can't take care of our children we can't take care of our vets our education system's terrible you know and yet we're going to endlessly fund that rather than things at home so you know I saw someone who was able to break through that that's someone who can effectuate real change for Real Americans who actually need it how does he connect with your father because they seem like drastically different people you know what it's interesting they actually have a very good relationship and you know again I I I I think I I joke I expect about 15 years worth of political Capital to both you know help JD Vance out in the original Senate primary uh and then for VP but every time I see him on TV every time I see him on the Sunday shows going into hostile media territory take your dad convincing did you did you have to convince there's a lot of well you know there's a lot of a lot of interest a lot of people in my ear what what's unique about my father is he will listen to everyone he'll ultimately make his own decision but you know you have a lot of people in the billionaire donor class we they want their guy because you know everyone wants their own little puppet in The Wine House I wanted the opposite I wanted someone you know who got it and and has lived that story and been a success and uh you know every day I feel very Vindicated when I see JD and uh I couldn't have been more proud than what I witnessed tonight Lasting Impressions are very important there was this moment towards the end of the debate I want to get your take on it that's what we're asking you America will you stand up will you keep your oath of office even if the president doesn't I think you've got a really clear choice on this election of who's going to honor that democracy and who's going to honor Donald Trump this of course was about January 6th and certifying the election uh your your father had a running mate Mike Pence he he is not on the ticket you have Senator JD Vance we were speaking to a focus group in Pennsylvania undecided voters and one of those voters said January 6 was important to her it was very important to her do you think this hurts you with some swing voters uh not even a little bit you know the reality is I think the fact that the media is going to try to latch onto that is maybe the only thing that they could try to hit JD on is probably very telling the reality is I understand that I'm the son of a billionaire from Manhattan last summer I took my children to McDonald's my two boys coming back from a fishing trip and it was 48 bucks and Donald Trump Jr looked at them and said it's got to be wrong what's going on here that's what matters to people fighting Wars in foreign lands watching Iran for the first time not through proxies but directly strike an ally of us in the Middle East I'm worried about my kids not having to go to war to fight for unknown reasons forever we had peace under Donald Trump we had Prosperity under Trump we've had the opposite under these last four years and I understand the will try to pretend that Cala Harris is a fresh slave she hasn't been in politics in 20 years and more importantly she hasn't even been a part of this Administration she copied the policies of this Administration didn't even change the source code onto her page it's going to be more of the same and I understand they're trying to create this moderate Cala Harris but she has a long record of being a radical San Francisco liberal she's the daughter of a Marxist Professor that doesn't just change but she'll tell you anything you need to hear to vote for her so you had four years under Trump you had four years under Camala Harris and Joe Biden when were you safer when did you have more money in your pocket we can bring that back we just have to actually make real change last question you know you guys have attacked Kamala Harris for Kamala kamla Harris sorry you're throwing me now kamla Harris for for not doing uh interviews for not sitting down doing town halls but she wants to do another debate and your father says he doesn't want to do a debate explain that to me I'm trying to understand that my father offered to do her another debate with her on Fox News weeks ago she turned it down because Camala Harris like when she does an interview and Tim wals has to sit next to her uh she's not capable of doing it but she can only she can only yes when it was a three onone debate with moderators that was so biased even people in the media were calling it ridiculous but Don Don your dad was commander-in-chief he can handle two moderators I saw him hand she should be able to handle she can't handle an interview with Oprah Oprah is sitting there rolling her eyes that's how bad it is people understand that when they hear her talk off teleprompter for more than a few seconds they realize there's absolutely no substance there expl to me expain he offered to do it because she will only do it in in hostile territory to us where she knows that she's going to get every moderator functioning as her marketing department that's why she turned down the other debate my father offered that weeks ago she won't do that you think this is the last debate of this elction I imagine so and I think there's you know the reality is this again the facts speak for themselves when were you better off when were you safer when were you not worried about wars we were signing peace deals in the Middle East that was the Holy Grail of geopolitical politics right that was the Holy we actually did that everyone said it could never even be done everyone promised they do it no one actually got it done my father did now we're on the brink of World War I with Iran attacking Israel that's not a good place for our children that's not a good place for America Russia Iran have effectively endorsed Kamala Harris Iran is hacking on our campaign and giving the information to the Harris Biden Administration they want Kamala and Harris to win because Iran Russia and China know that a weak America is good for them that's why they're pushing Camala Harris they're chomping at the bit for it they would love that to happen it would be a disaster for America joh Jun we thank you for answering our questions we thank you for being here in our special coverage appreciate it yeah H I'm going to send it back over to you in New York in our 30 Rock Studios Tom thank you very much joining me now here in New York is Hogan gidley former national press secretary for the Donald Trump 2020 campaign and Max Rose former Democratic congressman from New York welcome to the both of you thank you for being here with us Hogan let me pick up uh for continuity here on something that Tom was just talking about with Donald Trump Jr why no more debates well I think Donald Trump has obviously had an opportunity to debate not just Joe Biden at this point but comma Harris as well if you were advising him Hogan if you were still I mean officially on the campaign rooll and and advising him would you say just go do it no I wouldn't a lot of things go into you know these decisions on whether or not you should go debate somebody and he's already done this multiple times Democrats of course changed their candidate went with k Harris after uh Joe Biden got out of or after Joe Biden lost to Donald Trump in that debate and everyone wanted him out so why would you go back and do this all over again uh not to mention the fact I think Don Jr was right I mean there are several of those moderators who were going up against uh you know working kind of for the the the Biden Harris campaign attacking Donald Trump factchecking Donald Trump not doing anything uh for com to KLA Harris not doing anything with Joe Biden and so why would you go back into those uh situations I think pretty much right now we have a set race where there is a core base of support for Donald Trump a core base of support for KL Harris I don't know the debate would change anything I mean to the to the point of going after moderate again these are people who are well equipped to handle world leaders uh much less you know moderat and let me ask you this because it's kind of the same a similar Point here Congressman why not get Tim Walls out there in in more unscripted settings doing more interviews that is something you've already seen I think in some of the reaction coming from democratic strategists who were suggesting maybe he was a little bit too nice on the debate stage tonight and if he had done more unscripted interviews he'd have a little bit more Comfort level on a night like this yeah look I I think he did what he had to do tonight you did you think he executed on the mission he needed to go yeah certainly and I think that they they in some ways they both executed on their own objectives right I mean JD Vance had to go out there and show America that he's not just like a total sociopath and potentially he he achieved that and Tim Waltz went out there and showed that he's an effective leader and has the chops to be the vice president of the United States so there were different bars for for both um and they both could have been more aggressive certainly but in the end though I got to turn this back to the debate it it's a sad situation for Donald Trump when he's him and his allies family and otherwise are trying to stumble around looking for some excuse as to why he doesn't want to debate anymore when they obvious reason is staring right in the face he got trounced in the last debate and doesn't want to do it again the reason why I think you know it's funny Savannah and Lester were doing the special report right before this broadcast and show a hand do you want to see a debate now I'm not typically a show of hands kind of person right but in this instance I think any of course journalists want transparency we want to hear from the people who we folks are either electing or or or might be about to elect I think generally right as a journalist debates are a good thing the more you hear from candidates are a good thing and I bring this up because what we saw tonight were a lot of questions on policy substantive issues from healthare to the economy to foreign policy on Iran and Israel and and much more climate change for example which is not something that's come up a lot it would be an opportunity for Donald Trump to to speak more clearly about some of his policy positions on for example immigration and how you would actually Implement Mass deportations with JD Vance did not answer to speak more clearly on his position on abortion access for example he did make some news on that front tonight tweeting out during the debate that he would not support a National Abortion ban that he would vet to that why did it take him so long to come to a policy position on that front listen we're having a conversation on this stage right here about whether or not we should have more debates of course the American people deserve to know what these politicians think but Donald Trump was President of the United States he has a policy record people's lives are better everyone knows that he could go out there and say that more and he does that every single day he does interviews with hostile interviewers he goes out and does his he does his um uh campaign rallies Etc KLA Harris typically does it she has a few friendlies she goes to every once in a while she gives the same speech at every rally also president Trump also goes to in many friendly of yeah of course of course but I'm just saying these people are out all the time having these discussions so they're not going to debate again unless Donald Trump change his mind he also said he would debate on Fox she wouldn't do it he's already done one what on CNN and also on uh ABC two entities we deem hostile to our side he went into those places and had those debates KLA Harris would never go on Fox News and do a debate ever you know presidential elections particularly are about the future not the past JD Vance is obviously a a smart guy and Donald Trump is getting old so I'm not going to hold him accountable for this but what was interesting about JD Vance's debate tonight is how shallow he was about the future could not answer with any specifics about addressing the child care crisis could not answer with any specifics how to how he would change the AC a as they purportedly want to improve upon it could not answer with any specifics how he would execute this Mass deportation that they talk about each and every day in a Humane manner at all um so that they don't have any policy specifics it's a failure of their actual campaign not even one individual let me just ask you this though because here we are and we talked about this a minute ago and it's something that I think is important to remind people early voting is happening in key Battleground States early voting is going to be rolling out increasingly over the course of the next 2 and a half weeks right you look at I think it's the 17th or the 19th that you have one of the last of the key Sun Belt Battlegrounds that goes for inperson early voting did anything that happened here tonight move the needle to a degree that could make a difference in this race in your view Congressman absolutely uh 100% you know I think that there was and you saw actually the waltz team lowering expectations going into this there there was some sense that I think people were thinking oh this guy's just you know joov right he's just a he's folksy sticky this and that the the ultimate Midwestern guy and I say that you know as a a Kid From Brooklyn uh with limited knowledge of what that means but uh you know in the end he showed that he is a truly competent leader with a incredible experience in government yeah I think it matters um when you're talking about when you're talking about elections decided by 42,000 votes across three states JD Vance came out I think a lot of people seeing him for the first time after this caricature was painted of him by the media and others people realize wait a minute this guy's had a hard upbringing a tough life with a mother who was an addict was raised by his grandmother they couldn't make end meet all the time and he's not this vicious crazy person that he was painted to be instead he's someone who understands the policy has a grasp on it and he did did a good job exposing the radical nature of KLA Harris and Tim Walls Tim didn't even really talk about KLA Harris he couldn't because she has no policies he just kept talking about Donald Trump the whole time all right so both of you think that this could maybe make a difference when voters go and hit The Ballot Box uh Hogan Max thank you both very much Tom yamus I'll bring you back in there at the spin room to to the point that both uh Hogan gidley and Max Rose were making this is an election that will be decided absolutely on the margins you know this as I know you're digging into some of those key counties and those key Battlegrounds here I've been out on the road talking to folks about those big issues like the economy and immigration this is going to be a competitive race over the course of the next 35 days and it's interesting what's going to change the race right because if that's it with the debates no more debates it's unclear if there'll be any more consequential interviews after this Sunday what else voters do what else do they have to sort of make up their mind they're going to have to watch our coverage and other coverage and sort of go from there that's going to do it for our coverage tonight I'm Tom yamas in the spin room and I'm Hy Jackson here in New York on behalf of all of us here at NBC news thanks for watching we'll see you 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