The hope [Music] Pastor Face on Face on the foreign. [Music] Fore speech. [Music] and [Music] um [Music] [Music] [Music] The hope the conference starts a new [Music] [Music] Um, the whole [Music] Church. Fore. Whatever. stand by and three, two. Well, Pastor Kong, thank you so much for um taking the time to sit down with me. coffee and to just chat. Well, seeing you again is such a joy, you know. Um, Peter, I'm a big fan of yours. I watch you on YouTube and No, wait. No, no, you don't watch me out. Come on. I do. You're anointed. You are u full of passion for Jesus. You're so good-looking. You know, my wife thinks the same thing, too. And and God is using you in such a great way in Taiwan. And not just in Taiwan, but throughout the whole Chinese speaking world. Wow. So I I I can't uh help but to be uh a your cheerleader and so proud of what God is doing through you. Wow. Thank you. Thank you. That means that means a lot. Um well the reason why I want to sit down with you today is because I think it's about a year and a half ago um through pastor she made an introduction. Yeah. Um I was flying to India at that time for a ministry trip and she asked like hey do you want to sit down with Pastor Kong for coffee and I said of course and so I so we had coffee about yeah uh a year and a half ago. It was wonderful and I was so glad to have made your acquaintance and to know what God is doing in your life. Yeah. Well thank you and to be honest when we had coffee I didn't know what to expect because I've never met you in person before that. Obviously, I heard stories, people who have known you over the years, and I've always known you to be a very intense person, right? Very intense, very passionate. But I remember what strike me the most was when we sat down for coffee that day. Um I just felt like like you were father figure, like you were so encouraging. You were um you just encouraged me. You gave me great advice. You warn me about a few things. You teaching, say, "Hey, you got to watch out for these. pay attention to these and and you just encouraged me and and I just felt very encouraged. So I never met you before so I don't know that side but this side I was like oh I like that. Oh I'm glad you didn't see the old Kong. The old Kong was terrible. Yeah. I I'm glad that that that part of of my life it it feels like many lifetimes ago. Can you talk can we talk about a little bit about that old Kong? When you say old Kong, what do you mean by that? The old Kong is angry. It's intense. Okay. Impatient, unforgiving. Okay. And uh I would say very uh goal oriented. Okay. Very um visiondriven and um very busy. Okay. And may maybe not so happy. Have you always been like that or was it because of ministry or um I think because of ministry obviously and maybe a sense of what we would say the false self. Okay. you know that that part within me that wanted so much to have success, my ego, my pride. Okay. And um you know a lot of those stuff sometimes they come in the way, right? And I think what Jesus says is so true. What's the point of gaining a church and lose your soul? What's the point of gaining a revival? It's possible. You can gain a revival, gain and lose your soul. And I I felt that I was gaining a very successful mega church. We were the ninth largest in the world. Ninth largest in not just in Asia. Not just in Asia. In the world. In the world. And at at its height, City Harvest had how many people on? At its height, we had um 30 over thousand people plus our satellite churches, we are about maybe 60,000. And how old were you at that time? I was in my mid 40s. Wow. Early 40s we are seeing 400 decisions every week for Christ. For Christ. Can you imagine? Every week 400 people will put up their hands and say I want to receive Christ. And it it was like living a dream but you could gain a revival and lose their soul. How how did you feel like you were losing your soul during that time? I think um I was angry all the time. Okay. snapping at people. I love angry at when things didn't go the way you wanted. Yeah. And very intense. Uh a perfectionist. Okay. And um very unforgiving. Is there an incident that you can maybe tell us? Okay. We had a huge uh crusade at our indoor stadium and people were coming in from all around the world. It was jam-packed over, I think, four nights. Wow. We had a world class famous preacher. Um, and I was there excited um checking to make sure that all the seats are in line, everything was perfect, sound system, lighting was perfect. And then it wasn't up to my standard. So I wanted all my key leaders, my pastors to meet me in the green room like two hours before the service was supposed to start. They all went in. I closed the door and then I banged the table. Wow. Shouted at them at the top of my voice. Wow. And said that you know what kind of uh excellence is this? This is this is inferior uh performance, inferior service. Wow. And u things could have done so much better. You are an embarrassment not just to me to the church. Wow. But you're not doing this for the glory of God. And I don't think for a moment that's true. But I felt that they embarrassing me. And in the heat of my anger, I took a pen on the table and I threw at one of my pastors. Wow. And hurt him so deeply. And this is one of the guys that grew up in the church that served so faithfully. It affected our relationship for the next decade. Every time I walk into the room, he'll want to run away. Oh, wow. Thank God he didn't even uh he didn't resign, but it hurt him so deeply. But that was how I was like I I have no self-control. I was angry all the time. I felt that as a pastor of a big mega church, I have every right to assert my personality and to show who's the boss. Wow. Was that just something you observe from other churches or what what's going like, you know, anger is a learned response? I I grew up in a family where my parents were angry all the time, right? Uh, I grew up in a church with a very vision-driven pastor who would get angry with the staff and I have mentors and um, one of my mentors, he would like he would throw things whenever he's upset and I thought that was very cool. That's how leadership is supposed to be. That's so masculine, you know. That's that is how you you should be commanding as a as an apostle of God. Wow. and and I think that I I can't pick that but but still it's I'm not trying to shift the blame. It's it's me, right? And um I felt that I have the right to show who's the boss. But in the whole process, I failed to exemplify Jesus. Yeah. When you threw that pen that moment, what did you realize what you were doing? Did you catch yourself in the moment or you know when when you lose your cool and as a pastor? Uh I would often after that felt guilty and then go to my wife go to some of my key stuff. Was I too much? Was I overdoing it? But when you keep on doing this again and again, right, you you kind of like um excuse yourself and you say this is disciplehip. I went through this myself and just passing on disciplehip to others and then one day I I read the gospel and Matthew 11:28 to 20 to verse 30 right Jesus says you learn from me learn what I am gentle and humble at heart and that broke me Jesus was gentle I was anything but gentlemen did you think the stress of what you had to manage and uh all these eyes on you at that time. Yeah. Produced that pressure too. I think uh somebody once said I I believe it's Dallas Willand and he said that busyiness is the greatest killer of spirituality. Wow. Can you say that again? Busyiness is the greatest killer of spirituality. And I think I was simply too busy. I was living life with no margins. Okay. You know that's I was I was working 16 hours a day. 16 hours. 16 hours a day. Seven days. Hours in Singapore. 16 hour. That means you're just sleeping for the the other and there's no other time. I you know what what would be a typical day like for you back then? In back then uh you know I wake up very early. I sleep very late. Uh my meal times is on the go. Okay. While I'm eating, I'm working. Uh uh every three days I'm taking a flight. Uh I travel many times around the world every year. I'm I was one of the highest mileage earners in three airlines. Yeah. Three airlines. And then in the car on on the way to the airport, I have three staffs sitting inside asking me questions. And so that's my life. And I felt that, you know, I'm busy for the Lord. I'm being productive. I'm being efficient. Did you feel important because a a great sense of self-importance and but in the process of doing that um I was I was running in the spirit right I was running in love but nowhere in the Bible do you see a verse that says run in love run in the spirit. What does it say? Walk in the spirit. Wow. Walk in love. The fact that love is a walk, faith is a walk. The the Holy Spirit wants to walk with us, it immediately tells you there got to be a slowing down, right? But I wasn't slowing down. I was living life at 160 kilometers per hour. I'm curious at that time did you have older mentors or other pastors who All my mentors are older and will they tell you the same thing or many of them were doing exactly the same thing. Oh that's a problem. But I must say my spiritual father was Dr. Joe. Okay. And at the back of my mind, I'm seeing uh an elderly pastor who is my spiritual dad who never loses his cool, who never gossips, who prays five hours a day, and yet pastors the world largest church. So at the back of my mind, there is an example. Okay. But I didn't slow down enough to pay attention to that until when everything came crashing down. Okay. And then the Lord said, "Look, I put a spiritual dad in your life. Look at him. Learn from him." And it was an aha moment for me. You mentioned when everything came crashing down. Yeah. What do you mean by that? You know, I I went through a a season of um a whole church, not just me, my myself, my family, my entire church, we went through almost 10 years of very extreme suffering and hardship. And I was I was in the media practically every single week. Wow. You know, and uh most of the time is it's not good reporting. And then um I was I was in prison. Wow. And and um I never thought that um I would be able to have a second chance at ministry, second chance at at doing life for Jesus in such a way. So it's really a blessing. But that was a a period where there was a lot of soularching. And I must say that I I met with the Lord and wrestled with God. And that's why I'm so glad I'm so glad that I went through that season of hardship. It was it was an awakening, you know. Um Teresa of Avala said this, there's no humility without humiliation. Oh wow. And all those humiliation woke me up. Wow. And taught me humility. taught me what it means to slow down, to live a life of surrender, to to look for revival and ministry without sacrificing your spirituality and your friendship with God, which is what the spiritual journey is all about. I mean, Peter, when when Jesus saved you and I, he's not looking for workers. He could have he could have saved the world and do everything without us. He created the world without us being around. And and the whole spiritual journey is is all about coming into union with with God, experiencing his inner life of love, the love of the father, son, and holy spirit. enjoying that love, being transformed by that love to become a person of love ourselves so much so that that love is overflowing out of us that we cannot help but to share it with the world and that's when ministry comes in. But when we put the the cut before the aux and that's when everything goes crashing down. So you guys were going at 100 kilometer per hour, 200 km per hour and then boom boom. Was that at the height of your impact at that moment? Like at the church was at the pinnacle of at that point in time it seems like nothing could stop us. We we were we were growing and we are still growing. And you know I was having a a huge conference in Singapore. Uh TBN was there. TBN was you know to we didn't look for them. They came looking for us. We have they were there to report on our service. We had Dr. Cho. We had Reinhard Bonke. We have all the top preachers. All the heavy hitters. All the heavy hitters. They were all there. We have uh a TV van outside the venue broadcasting to the whole world life. Okay. Feels like we were invincible. Wow. um a mutual friend that we have um Pastor Gary Garrick from Taiwan. We were I was having dinner with him the other day. He share with me something that you share with him personally after he came out prison. Um he said you said to him that um if I were to do it over again, I wouldn't trust so much in the momentum. Yeah. I would look for the moment. Yeah. And I just thought that was gold. Yeah. Uh can you momentum is a great thing and you know you you hear a lot of leadership speakers saying that you got to have the big mo right momentum and but momentum without self-control is dangerous momentum without self control is is dangerous momentum is is is a drug you can get addicted to momentum and you can't stop and you don't want to stop right it gives you the Your adrenaline is pumping. Your adrenaline is flowing. And we had adrenaline oozing out of our ears out of dripping dripping everywhere, you know. And and when you have that much adrenaline, it's dangerous. You get ahead of God. And you think that you're doing stuff that important that it may not be exactly what God is wanting of you and in you and we can convince oursel and we can we can convince oursel and we forget Matthew 6:33 to seek first the kingdom of God and all his righteousness. We are seeking the kingdom for God. We are saying God this is what you want, right? We are giving you what you want and in the sense we put ourselves above God and that's dangerous and that was where I was at. So momentum but you talk about moments and moments you got to it's a day by day thing. Okay. day by day and you know we we are as visionaries Peter you understand this you are a great leader yourself without a vision the people perish right so we are so vision driven we are always living in the future and and we are worried about the future yes we are fearful of the future right we are anticipating the future but what about now what about today and don't forget that the the rich um guy he says that, you know, he I'm building I got a barn. I got a big harvest. I'm building bigger. I'm doing this. He's anticipating so much of the future. And and that night, Jesus said, "You full tonight. Tonight, this moment, you're living in the future. You're living by momentum. But tonight, this moment, you're not watchful of your moment. Your soul's gone." Wow. And I was living so much in the future. I didn't take care of my own soul of my of you know I I was my members they have needs they they have I'm supposed to disciple them in the now but everybody has become like workers to serve this huge vision and everyone's dry up tired burnout and um I I'm I'm too foolish to recognize that. Wow. Looking back, I know nobody would want to go to prison, but it seems like it's a act of mercy and grace from God that this happened. I think so. To put a little reset, pause. I think so. I think so. And um uh you know I went when I went to prison interesting thing was this uh the first one of the first books that I read was the gospel of Matthew by watchman knee nitson right was it like a commentary thing it's a commentary thing yeah and you know and so my wife sent it to me and uh I I was able to read it and and three things M what my knee said and this was like the first few months of my prison stay and uh when he was writing this he wasn't in prison okay but those three things that impacted me he said number one he said that um give yourself to understand the word of God that means just know not just have knowledge of the word but understand the theology behind the word and So, I told myself, "Okay, I'm going to be here. I'm going to How long How long were you um sentenced?" Okay. When I went to prison, I was uh I was in for three and a half years. Okay. But But the sentence was much But yeah, but um the the prosecution wanted a longer sentence. So, when I went in uh no one's sure was I going to be there for three and a half years or eight years or 12 years. And the there's rumors that I could be there for 20 years. So you didn't even know. Yeah. So so when I went in, everybody kind of knew that when they're going to be released, but I remembered that I was told that, you know, temper your expectation. You don't know how long you're going to be here. So sometimes it's that not knowing when's the end point. Especially from you being so futuristic, vision driven. You want to know your plan. Yeah. So I got to sacrifice that. Wow. I got to come to a place where I said, "Lord, I surrender my life." And I counted if I'm in for 20 years, by the time I'm out, I'll be in my 70s. And by the time I'm out, possibly the family. Yeah. I I would never have my my boy would never have known his dad growing up. And I What would be my place in City Harvest Church? By that time the pioneering generation will all have retired. A new generation will be running the church. I would they would have no relationship with me. Yeah. What am I going to do? So all these questions are swimming in my head. But just to finish the story. So watchman said study theology. Number two he said um maximize your time. Redeem the time every day. and um you know and the third thing he said then that was the thing that hit me and uh he ended in Matthew 25. Okay. So I guess because after that he himself was arrested and watchman knee spent 20 years in prison and so he ended in Matthew 25 Jesus said I was in prison and you visited me and I was hungry you you you know all that and then the last line was this Jesus will be with you in prison. Oh that was the last that was the last line in the book. in the book. When I read that, I cried. Wow. That was my first book I read. Jesus will be with you in prison. You cried because I knew Jesus will be with me in prison. I knew that he is he's doing something. I don't I didn't know what. But every day is going to be okay. Jesus is with me. Would you say when you went in in the beginning you were angry? Were you disappointed? I was I was a mess. I was so tired to be honest with you, you know. And um you were tired because of the Yeah, it's I I believe it's one one of the longest court trials in uh Singapore history. I was absolutely exhausted and um when when I was sentenced, I had to go to prison. I had two weeks to put everything in order. We got a shift out of where we are staying. And uh when I went in for 3 days for 72 hours I think I just I just slept through. I just slept through. I was just I was totally wiped out. Wow. I slept through and then um the first nine months was very difficult. All the questions I have why why me? Why now? We are we are working so hard for you Lord and what will my future be? You know, I in that time of frustration and questioning, you know what I found my greatest fear? I I found I had a greatest fear. Um, and it's not the fear of sickness. It's not the not even the fear of death, right? It's not even the fear of being in prison. Oh, okay. The greatest fear was oblivion. Oh, you know, oblivion to to think that I my I didn't matter, right? My life didn't count because we all grew up with this. You have one life to live. Live it fully for Jesus. Make your life count. You know, why be like everyone else? Why do we all grew up with with rhetorics like why do something any common person could do? Make your life count for Jesus Christ. Do something that only a child of God could do. And then now I'm thinking, boy, I'm going to go into history and nobody would ever remember me. I'm one of those has been. I'm one of those what-ifs. I'm one of those that if only he could have done this or done that. If only he could have done this. A cautionary tale. Yes. oblivion and I said, "God," and I wham and I cried. I said, "Nobody would ever remember me. I'm just a blip in your radar." Wow. You know, in the 20th, 21st century, nobody would ever remember me. That was my greatest fear. And the Lord has to deal with that. How did the Lord deal with that? I wrestled with him for months. Literally for months. Angry. I couldn't sleep in my cell. I couldn't sleep. I'm I'm having all this mental conversation. I say, "God, how can this be? What about all your promise? What about all those prophecies?" And you know, I because the Bible says, "Do not despise prophecy." I I keep every single one of I kept every single one of them. I have fouls of prophecies. prophetic word that was spoken over your life. You're going to do this. You're going to do that. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I got all these prophetic words. I said, "God, when would how are they going to come to pass? I'm going to be here for the next 20 years." And then in my mind, I'm giving mental lectures at all the people that I'm angry with, right? You know, and angry, angry, angry, you know. Um Henry Noan said this. He says solitude is the furnace of spiritual formation, right? And when you're alone in prison in that cell and boy, all the ugliness of your soul is it starts coming up to the surface. Oh, it's hard to take a deep look at what's going on in your soul and be honest. You have to be honest because now now you you have no schedule to catch. You're not preaching somewhere else. You have no plane to catch. You know, you you're just you and God. Yeah. And and I said, "God, I'm angry. What about my destiny? What about my destiny?" And this went for months. Every night I'm in my mind I'm screaming and yelling at God, "What about my destiny?" And then one night Jesus just quietly and lovingly said to me, he said, "Am I not enough a destiny for you? Even if you have nothing else, am I enough a destiny for you?" That broke me. I said, "Yes, Lord. Yes, Lord." A million times. Yes, even if I have nothing else. Jesus, you are enough destiny for me. That was my turning point from that day. Everything changed. My whole life changed. Everything changed for me. I'm sorry. No, it's okay. Yeah. Amazing, right? How that was that was my so simple words and definitely things that they're not new theologies they're not new revelation it's just what Jesus have always said all along but what was it about you at that moment that was able to finally hear probably the same thing that Jesus have been speaking to you all this time slowing myself to a place where I can be quiet enough, alone enough to hear God, you know, and to realize that my spiritual journey is not just one big performance. That what God wants of me is not to be a celebrity pastor. The end of the day is not how many followers I have on my Instagram or on my Facebook. But what he wants is to love me and for me to enjoy um his love. And he's a good father. And in that love, he wants to deal with all those issues I have. so that I too can be changed to be like Jesus. And you know all all the vision all the ministry all that they are just tools for us for him to change us to mold us at the end of the day is to be like Jesus. Right. Right. And then when we do serve him it must be out that overflow of that love because that's our primary call. That's our primary calling to be like Jesus. It's to be like Jesus. It's not about a ministry position. Yeah. It's not to be this or that. Yeah. But you know, I I I guess I was too busy living too hectic a life and um business killed my spirituality. Wow. So what changes have you done in your own personal life since then? Silence and solitude. And I heard you preach about that many times. You find that all throughout the gospels, Jesus, you you find him he's very busy. He's he's he's an ancient man. But he would take time right in his busyiness to have time alone with God and you know silence to be quiet enough so that you can hear him. And I have learned I have learned in prison that silence is the favorite voice of God. Silence is the favorite voice of God. No, I Peter, I'm sure you you've been you know you're from Canada. You've been out to the woods. Yeah. When I was young, I used to love canoeing. Okay. Yeah. And then when you go kayaking or canoeing sometimes early in the morning or late in the evening and you're just alone in the waters the silence could be so deafening you feel the pressure in your ears right because you're not used to it you're not used to it sound used to all these other noise I have learned that when I am absolutely quiet not even music alone with God, he speaks so loudly into my soul. Wow. You know, and I don't need white noise. I don't need anything out there to keep my day going. I can plug into God just by being absolutely quiet. Yeah. And solitude to be alone just to engage him. And it is in that time of absolute quietness and aloneeness that you meet God and you find healing for your soul and you live in the present. You you you live in the now. You're not thinking about your of course you can pray about your future and all that but you are there in the moment and say God I'm here again. It's me and you. Silence and solitude. Another thing is is I live by this mantra zero anger and I think it's it's a very big deal in my life. I you know zero anger, constant forgiveness and unlimited patience. Can you talk about that constant forgiveness? Because you know it's hard to be in ministry. It's hard to because ministry is about people. Yeah. And when you deal with people, it's always disappointments. Yeah. There's always people that you wish were there were not there for you and things like that. And how did you deal with that? Because if we're not careful, it's very easy to become bitter. Yeah. It's very And I've seen myself go through these seasons where I can I feel very dark on the inside. Yeah. Um I share with our church uh about a year ago um there's a season and not too long ago when things were going where I felt like my soul was so dark. I felt so bitter. I feel so angry at people not people in our church but other places and and the Lord had to deal with me in that it's story of my life pre- prison. pre- prison. I'm angry. I'm bitter. And in my mind, I have a mental black book. All the people that hurt me and let me I I tell you I tell you funny story. the week I was going to prison and I was still scrolling the Instagram, you know, and then I see all all my friends that I know in ministry and they're having holidays in Europe. They're attending conference in America. They all doing the victory sign, smiling. I'm thinking, "Hey, I'm your friend. I'm your coach. I'm your disciple. I'm your pastor. I'm going to prison in a few days." And you angry. Can you imagine that's how that's how sensitive and um No, I totally understand. Yeah, that's how I totally understand. You know, and but it's not a good sign, you know. It it shows that you're not in a good place, right? You you are wounded. You are hurt. So, every little pressure it kind of like adds to the score, right? So, one of the things that I have to do is I have to daily forgive. and being in prison all that time and just learning every day I just learning to release forgiveness. And this is what I've learned. Um you know I I read a book in prison Luther he he he teaches us uh salvation by grace through faith. But one of the things that he did was that um for for Luther the ten commandments is very important right? So every day he would check his heart using the ten commandment as a like a x-ray right and to as a gauge and whatever area he have fallen short of he ask God please forgive me and that's what I did in prison a lot I would spend time I said god you know have I been bitter against this person that person have I been covetous have I entertained unclean thoughts have I been angry so for you That process of dealing with your own bitterness is actually cleansing your own heart. Yeah. And to do it again and again. And Jesus, you know that the Lord's prayer, father, forgive me as I forgive those sin against me. And the Lord's prayer is meant as a daily praying pattern. I mean because every day we pray for our daily bread. So similarly, every day we if there's a need, we should release forgiveness. So I learned to release forgiveness again and again until I'm walking in a constant atmosphere of forgiveness. Wow. And so that at any given moment I find myself being a forgiving person and being in prison you're you're among very angry people you know very violent people. uh the people around me they are in gangs they are so it's not like like in America they would separate kind of white collar crime no we're all in maximum security so in prison is pretty exciting you know once every 3 days as a fight you know so so yeah you you you you're in a very you're living among very angry people right and you see the the fruit of that anger yes precisely and the Lord was showing me the Holy Spirit was showing me I want you to be opposite of this. Wow. I want you to be like Jesus. And you know, we always use Jesus overturning the table as an excuse for our anger, right? But you know, when you look at it, Jesus was trying to use that as a as a lesson. And I I so I actually, you know, in prison, you have a lot of free time. So I counted I counted there are like maybe about 150 events in the four gospels concerning Jesus's life right and he only lost oh I wouldn't say he lost he was only angry seven times okay and we cannot take those seven times to say you see you have an angry hole and become an excuse for our behavior yeah so and I take Jesus at his word learn from me. I'm gentle and I'm humble. So I said, "Jesus, I will learn gentleness." And in prison, I learn gentleness. Releasing forgiveness. That's number one. Another thing that you do, stop gossiping. When you're in prison, there's nothing to do, right? You are locked in 23 hours a day. Think about it. So one hour you get to to to come out, one hour for yard time, one hour for day room activity time. So unless and and after a while you get to work in in what they call you you can you can work in certain department for a few hours a day but generally it's 23 hours a day in your cell you're in your cell just think about it 23 hours a day there is no window there's no window there's no window it's you're lock in you know you have little holes here and there but there's there's there's ample vent ventilation but there's you're basically lock in what are you going to too, right? So, you spend the time uh got to you have your cellmates. You got to talk. After a few weeks, you run out of things to talk. So, you start gossiping against this cell and that cell and this cell and that cell. And that's how you get into fights because there's no secrets in prison. After a while, everybody hears what everybody is saying. I see. During yard time, day room time, big guy comes to you. So, you've been saying this about me, right? And because nobody has any like outside of this circle. So everything become like more intense and everything be Yeah. Yeah. So you make a decision no gossiping. So I've been trained for a few years. Can you imagine how life is with no anger and no gossiping and daily releasing forgiveness? Do you know how it's heaven? It's heaven. Wow. Learning to be quiet. You know, I think as a general rule, we all would agree. We sin more when we talk more. Yes. That's the Bible says that. Yeah. Right. Where there are many words, sin is not absent. Yeah. And to talk less, I tell you, it is really kingdom invasion. It's really, it's really supernatural. Supernatural. I felt a lightness in my soul. I felt for the first time a joy unspeakable and full of glory. I felt so close to God. I felt so much like Jesus. Wow. Sin less, talk less, hear more, love more, forgive more. No gossip. Two that's that's a big problem in church. Two and two years and eight months. No talking about what other churches are doing because nobody cares in in prison. What? No gossiping against other pastors, other leaders, other preachers, and just loving Jesus. Right. Wow. I really felt heaven. Wow. when you were in prison um as you're going through this transformation not knowing when you're going to come out and whether there will be another chance at ministry um did you think to yourself maybe I'm just will never be able to do ministry again yeah I I I have to accept that I may not do ministry ever again but not ministry the way I knew it Right? At some point I came to that um I came to that place of acceptance. Right? I accept I have to learn to accept if for the next 20 years I'm going to be here. How can I still shine for Jesus? Right? And I felt that I could shine for Jesus by being the best cellmate. I can be an encouragement to the to to my friends here, my community. This kind of su ministry. Yeah. These are my friends now. And how can I exemplify Christ to them and I come to that place where I can accept that I may never be a pastor or preacher again. And and there are certain strict restriction and especially the fact that I was a pastor. So once a week we have prison chapels. Oh and and I've been specially instructed, look, you're no longer a pastor, okay? So you're not allowed to preach, right? You're not allowed to lead prayer. We don't want to see you standing up in the front. Wow. You know, so I was just a guitarist. Oh. In the prison chapel service, I was a physical arrangement person. I was there every week to to arrange shares. Okay. and just an encourager. And you know, I enjoyed that. I enjoyed just sitting down, playing the guitar, arranging the chairs, and when people come and said, "Can you please pray for me? I'm going through this." And just quietly pray. And we are not allowed to touch one another. In prison, they're very strict laws. You cannot touch one another. Lay hands. You cannot. So, we just pray, right? And then uh but there's you're in prison chapel for two hours, right? But the rest of the week in the cell in the when you interact with people, how do you shine for the Lord? You cannot give tracks. You cannot have rallies. You serve. You learn to serve. So I I learned to be a servant of all and to en to find joy in that and I learned spiritual disciplines and I enjoy it so much. I really found heaven on earth during that time of I'm not taking away prison is a lot of hardship. It's a lot of pain. You're separated from your loved ones. You know you're worried about your family. You're worried about your parents. I'm worried about sun day and you know and and you have no bed. There's no fan. There's no air con. It's it's tough. Singapore. No AC. No AC. It's is it's hard. You sleep and sometimes you wake up in the middle of night and you're sleeping on a pool of sweat. It's hot. And you know and of course the food is very simple. We I lost 20 kilos. Okay. You know, and um it's tough. Prison life is tough. And we are not taking that away. But there's an inner joy, right? Because silence and solitude, reading the Bible, serving one another, humility, you know, it's it's it's tremendous joy. So you started City Harvest Church when you were how old were you at? 25. 25. And when you went to prison, you were When I went to prison, I was 53. 53. Yeah, that's a so 25 to So all that years your identity as pastor leading this mega church all that and that all come to a halt. That just means nothing in prison obviously. Nothing. Rediscovering what it means to be a a child of God. Yeah. Connecting with him, letting Jesus speak to you. Isn't that Isn't that the greatest joy? Wow. Isn't that the best thing? Wow. When you read the Bible, not because you have to prepare a sermon. When you're praying, not because you're leading, right, prayer. Isn't that the best thing? And you just read it for yourself. It's not because you are you need to do a teaching on this. You're not thinking about how do I make it into a three-point or five point or seven point. No. and to wake up uh every morning at 5 to pray because you really want to meet the Lord. And I was still fasting, not for a crusade, not for any event. I I was fasting every Tuesday. Okay. Because I just I just wanted to be closer to Jesus. Yeah. the the ancient church the the dedicay they preach about uh talked about fasting you know it was a weekly they would do two uh once or two two two days a week where they will encourage the Christians to fast just for their own spiritual discipline yeah for my own spiritual life so that I can crucify my flesh uh zero anger constant forgiveness I can have unlimited patience I can always smile so I really learned to smile in prison prison. Every day I'm smiling. Now coming out um post prison, if you were to look back at what you guys were doing, was there anything that you would do differently besides like the zero anger and all that stuff like your own personal but about church? I think I I would have I would have slowed down ministry by a lot. Okay. I would have I wouldn't have pushed the church at a pace where there's no margins margin. Yeah. We are just living life doing ministry to the max every day, every month, every week and we pray ourself. We are a machine, right? But I don't think I don't think that's wise. I don't think that's God. Well, that's the second time you mentioned the word marching. Can you speak a little bit more about that? You know that you got to give room for God to work and to speak and you there got to be a proper balance. I I think the fact that God uh instituted a Sabbath, right? Out of every seven days, one day you should rest. I think if God put that in and he exemplify it in Genesis and God rested, the Bible says, how much more, you know, and God put margin in our lives, in the world, in creation, even the land got to have a Sabbath rest. Yes. I think we should we should allow margin in us. We should not be working all the time. And if if all the time we on a on a off day we we don't know what to do and we got to do ministry or we don't know how to what to do and we got to watch Netflix to fill up that time or at night we can't sleep and and we got to keep scrolling our social media because we just cannot sleep our mind cannot we our mind is our rest cannot reset cannot yeah there something is wrong. Yeah, we got to we got to come to a place where where there's certain Sabbath in our entire DNA and now I'm out for five and a half years and I got to watch myself because if I'm not careful, the temptation is there. Come back in. Come back in again because things are happening again. You know the gifts and the callings of God, they are without repentance. They're irrevocable. Yeah. And the gift of leadership is still there, right? You know, anointing is there. Yeah. The anointing is there. And I I got to keep checking myself, right? And um Okay. Don't go back to the old Kong. Wow. That's beautiful. Many years ago, you used to come to Taiwan a lot. Can you tell me why was Taiwan just on your heart? Yeah. Because that's my first encounter with you. Obviously, you didn't know me. I was at a like a um I think it was called Guu Fuini or something like that. A friend invited me to go sitting at the back of the stadium because I didn't honestly I didn't want to be there. My friend invited me. It was the summer I was back in Taiwan. You going to come? I came and then you spoke and pastor Al Eggman spoke and um and that one conference had such an impact on my life. Wow. It was during that conference I felt the call to full-time ministry. I think it's the same for Garrick too. Really? Yeah. Garrick said he attended something similar. I I've talked to many people in our church and they and many of them were at that conference and they talk about how that impacted their life. But but anyway, so you were in Taiwan a lot um ministering um helping churches. Why was why why Taiwan? Yeah. I I think it all started in 99 1999. Yeah. I was invited for a youth conference in a local university and I was I was there and I was not the main speaker. I was one of the many speakers. Uh and and it was organized by Taipei Lingang, you know. Yeah. And so on the last day, Pastor Ewan was um uh was he the youth pastor? He was the youth pastor. And he brought me to the to the van. He was the leader. He couldn't send me to the airport. Okay. So he brought me to the van and he said goodbye to thank me and it was raining heavily. So I sat in the van on the way to the tower and to the airport and uh and then the Holy Spirit spoke to me. He says I want to reign my Holy Spirit in Taiwan uh Kong. I want you to uh I want you to usher in a revival among the young people from this revival. The impact will be so great. you will impact the whole of Asia and all the Chinese speaking young people around the world. Wow. And I I sat there, I was thinking, God, it's not going to happen because I can't even speak Chinese conversationally. I was so bad in my Chinese, you know, at at the conference, even even over meals, I needed an interpreter. Even over meals, like just a casual conversation casual conver conversation, I just can't. Okay. And so uh I came back. I kept that in my heart and I said, "Okay." How old were you at the time? I said 99. I was what? Uh I was 20 27 28. Okay. And City Harvest has started already. Yeah. Yeah. City Harvest was like 12 years. Oh, sorry. I was in my 30s. Okay. 37. 37. 37 38. Yeah. Around that that age. Yeah. So, uh City Harvest was in a revival. Okay. We were at that time 7 8,000 people. We we had a vision back then 10,000 by a year 2000. So, you know, the vision for God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so because they said that no church in Singapore has broken the 10,000 barrier. So, we we said we're going to confess 10,000 by 20,000. Oh, at that time no church in Singapore 10,000. So, that was 1999. So, we are focused on that. And the last thing I wanted was to get distracted into Taiwan. So the year 2000 I was invited again by even okay by uh pastor Joe Sanchu and and so this is a year after the year after uh come for our our August um uh event and it's going to be at Lyang Sanjong. Yes. So I've never been to Lang Sanchang and and when I was there I I brought son. So this is the first time son was with me. Okay. And we were it was in the midst of a typhoon. So we are having typhoon sun was leading you know you you got to know something about my wife right I mean my wife she is she's very modern so she she saw le wearing a tank top nobody song let wear wearing a tank top in Taiwan you know this this is the year 2000 right and her hair was color 25 years ago yeah she her hair was brown streaks okay she was wearing colored contact lenses like nobody. She had makeup on, full makeup on. So she was and so I I was really surprised because typhoon and the whole place was so packed at the sun drunk with kids like high school kids. They got to remove the chairs. Kids were sitting on the floor. Yeah. They had the pews back. The pews. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You got to remove be on the floor. And I was like surprised, you know, like this is typhoon, you know. So I I like to tell myself it's because my preaching was so anointed. They're coming to listen to me. I realize it's not. They were just intrigued, right? How can a pastor's wife be so modern with with dyed hair, contact lenses, wearing tank top, and able to, you know, and all this and all that. And and something something clicked in me. I got an idea. What if we do a crossover project, right? To, you know, package the message of faith, hope, and love into secular Taiwanese music, right? And get son to sing it. Okay? Maybe we're able to do something evangelistic and see a mighty move of God in Taiwan. So that that vision was born. So this is the genesis of it. And because of this, we we come to Taiwan so much. We were in Taiwan every like 50 times a year. 50 because we keep coming back Taiwan. And did you say 50? 50. Yeah. 50 times a year. That's about once a week. Once a week. Yeah. Back and forth. Back and forth. And then we we were we went through every city and town like five times. You have probably been to more places in Taiwan than I have. I I've been I tell you we've been to small little town and we would do a concert there for like farmers you know we just do we went round and round and round high school throughout Taiwan all over many many times and we just went round and round and round Taiwan and uh so much so 2006 we we started SOT in Taiwan for a year because we needed workers to conserve the harvest right and in 2006 six. We lived in Taiwan for a year. I live in Taiwan at at uh Renu Yuan just opposite uh Ching. We lived there for a year and just to conserve the harvest. So all this started because Taipe Ling and Ewan invited me in 99 for a youth conference. Wow. I so I wasn't in Taiwan other I wasn't living in Taiwan. I was visiting Taiwan every summer and then because those com there would be a lot of these conference in August, July and I remember I would I would schedule my ticket to always be after the conference to to fly back to Canada because that was the highlight of my summer in Taiwan. Wow. And I remember going in and just hearing a lot of um your preaching and pastor off and it was I felt like it was just an explosion in my spirit you know it gave me faith it gave me vision today people know me as a vision but I was not back then I would I just got saved I was very I have very self-esteem a lot of self-esteem issues I um I I didn't have motivation for anything and it just it was like I was reborn again. Wow. And so I just want to say thank you so much for all the time you invested in the big cities and the small towns. I didn't know about the small towns but and pouring into Taiwan to this day. I would still talk to people and they would say how much your ministry back then. Wow. Thank you. Have impacted them today. And many of them would say they're Christians today because of listening to some of the preachings and teachings that you have taught over the years. Wow. And honestly, we have still we have volunteers and leaders in our church who I know they're great leaders because they listen to some of your preachers back then. They stay faithful in the Lord because you go to church, you kind of know people come in and out. Yeah. Those who stay. Wow. And um I really appreciate this. It's really a privilege uh you know, Pastor Peter, to be able to just um obey the heavenly vision. Paul says, you know, and we had a vision. We we went for it. We you know my wife and I we were not really uh proficient in Chinese. I mean and we we learned to speak conversationally son learned to sing in Chinese. It wasn't easy but but every step of the way we could feel the Holy Spirit just helping us leading us to the right door to the right people. It was a very exciting time. Yes. And you know my boy was born in 2005. Okay. And so he he spent uh his between his first and second year he grew up in Taiwan. So every week I brought him to Chuning Suchi because of on the top floor you have this little like a kids museum and he would just play that that that bookstore is no longer there. No longer there. No. No. They closed that down. Close it down. Yeah. About a couple years ago. Yeah. And so we, you know, we we feel such an affinity to Taiwan and it's such a a great place. It's really an island that I I believe God loves Taiwan so much because the influence of the church, right, the strongest Chinese churches in the world are all in Taiwan. And the fact that we speak Mandarin and and and and it's a at least it's a place where you have that freedom of religion and a lot of these things. And yeah, Taiwan is so important in the economy of the kingdom, you know, and and I guess that's why uh preachers from all around the world, they want to invest in Taiwan because if you touch Taiwan, you touch the entire Chinese speaking world, which is what, you know, 1.4 billion plus overseas Chinese, 1.6 billion people. That's a lot. That's a lot. That's a lot. Wow. So the crossover project started in Taiwan. in Taiwan because of because of that 99. Oh, I see. The year 99 that I encounter. I see. And year 99 and then 2000. But it was also the crossover project that there was a lot of controversies, you know, and a lot of Yeah. because I I mean I wasn't there at the time, but hearing stories and looking back, what would be some of the thing if you don't mind sharing like Yeah. you would like, okay, maybe I would Yeah, I would still do it this way, but maybe I wouldn't do it that way. Yeah. I think the crossover project is is very challenging because uh you you can never please both sides. Yes. To the world you have become worldly and to the entertainment world you know to the church you have become worldly. I mean sorry to the church you become worldly and then to the world you're not worldly enough. Yeah. You know you're just uh you're like a Christian wannabe Christian wannabe pop star. Yeah. Want to be pop star. So it's very difficult. It's hard to balance you know. It's it's hard to balance. Uh well it's a it's an adventure. What would I have done differently? Same thing you know I I I wouldn't have gone at 160 kilometers per hour. I guess we were concerned because you know the entertainment world is brutal. is brutal and especially in Asia and where youth is really elevated and and son is always uh concerned you know I'm I'm a slow number one and then number two I'm no longer young right and I'm like her manager right and all the time we got to okay we got to strike while the iron is hot we only got a window so we got to really do it this way and what would I have done differently again I wouldn't have a lot motivation u momentum right to to overtake the need to think to reflect right to discuss to check and to get wisdom from people around right you know and and this sense like we don't have time right you know and um sometimes even if you're not involved in the in the crossover project you you can oh Jesus is coming back tomorrow we don't have time we got to right and God you got to realize God holds time in his hands I think he he thinks of it very differently differently we do from us you know it's been 2,000 years 200 years yeah 2,000 years yeah 2,000 years yeah and we could have just stopped take a break batical for a year and think about it. Yeah. And I think that a lot of things would have been very different. Yeah. Yeah. I had um I have a mentor who said to me once, life is long and life is short. It's both at the same time. Yeah. And never lose sight of the fact that you have all the time and you don't have a lot of time. You got to hold both in tension with one another so that you do not become just Yeah. I think we were just we are just worried all the time. And was it a worry about losing re revelence, losing impact, losing the ability to strike an iron's heart? Yeah. The opportune time. Yeah. Fearful that we will not have the opportunity again. Worried that perhaps, you know, I mean, all of a sudden all the doors will open up. All of a sudden the US got interested. Oh, right. And US is totally different from Taiwan, right? All of a sudden, uh, you know, China was opening up. China was inviting son for the special Olympics, for the Olympic games. Yeah. For the Special Olympics. And for the Olympic Games. And she was the a music ambassador for some of the events. And all of a sudden, you know, all these doors were open, right? It's very easy to interpret that as like we got to go, we got to go. Yeah. And we got to go. We And we got to we got to go through every door. We got to be stay there for two second. Go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We we we got to, you know, and and we are living that kind of life. Uh one day you're in you're in Beijing and then 48 hours later you're in uh New York and then uh another few hours later you're in Singapore, a few hours later in Honduras. Few hours later you're here, you're there. The typical life of a celebrity And the worst thing is I began to think that I'm a celebrity. Wow. You know, and that's my life. Wow. And so Wow. And then God presses stop, pause, and reset. Yeah. Thank God there's a reset. But to be perfectly honest, if he have pressed stop and there's no reset, right, I would still be the happiest man. Wow. Because I found back my relationship with God, my soul, and got closer, stronger, and the joy. And the joy. I just wonder, Pastor Peter, if God takes away the ministry from everybody, How much joy would that be? Yes. Would there still be joy in any of us? Especially for people like us because you started passing when you were in your 20s and Yeah. I same thing. You know, the reason why I really want to do an interview with you is because that coffee we had together. Yeah. And just hearing your experience to me it's just great advice. I always tell uh I always tell people I said a a smart person learn from their own mistakes. a wise person learn from the mistake of others and then when I hear from you I'm like these are great reminders for myself personally and about the momentum where the church is going and and living in the moment and and because when you start young and and you experience the success it's very easy to be lost in it. Yeah. And to forget Yeah. why you do it. Yeah. And I tell you what, like when I was in my 20s, um when I first became a Christian, I told God, I pray this prayer. I said, "God, there is nothing in the world that I wouldn't do for you. You tell me to do anything, I'll go do it. You tell me not to do anything, I'll listen to you." And that one prayer has been my constant check. Yeah. And I got to be honest, as the year go by, as ministry grow, it becomes harder and harder to honestly say to ask myself, is that still true in my life? Yeah. Like if one day God says, I want you to drop everything. Yeah. I don't want you to be the senior pastor of this church. I don't want you to do this anymore. I want you to go there. I want you to just do this. Would I be able to do that? Yeah. And that's a question I ask myself all the time. Yeah. You know, I'm I'm on an experiment right now. Um, since I have another chance to um do this again in the second half of my life, I I told the Lord, I said, I want to I want to try out this experiment. Can I experience a revival? Can I grow a church? Can I see people get saved? where there is very minimal me right and a lot of God. That means can I grow a church and see revival in my generation again without being so busy right without being so intense without having need to scope people and pressure people and so driven by personalities. Can I can I not be driven and see revival? I want to try it. Yeah. What have I got to lose? I don't feel I got anything to lose. One of the one of the major mindset changes I have is this. You know, all the spiritual ancients of the past, you you look at the last 2,000 years of church history. Yeah. They all focus a lot on detachment. Yes. You know, and I think one of the biggest problems we have is is this attachment. Attachment to ministry, attachment to success, attachment to my business, my career, my reputation. Yes. or even for a common member uh attachment to my marriage, my kids, my family and attachment unknowingly has become our idol. And like any idol, they always promise love, joy, happiness and peace. But they will deliver anything except those things. Yes. And the the thing about attachment is they will first tell you I'm I'm just an attachment. I'm a side thing and then you don't realize when it became the main thing. Yeah. Because it never said I'll be your main thing. It just said I'll be on the side. Yeah. Eventually just and you like how did that became my the driving thing in my life? When did that happen? And it's subconscious and you don't realize it has happened. And usually when you think about it, what are you most worried and anxious about? All your attachments. Yes. They all they deliver is anxiety and worry. How many pastors and church leaders are worried and anxious all the time? Yeah. Anxious about do we have the funds, do we have the manpower, how is this going to anxious, worried, worried, worried all the time. And I realized in my spiritual journey that all the spiritual ancients that we all respect, Wesley, Paul, Jesus, they live a life of just letting go, letting go, letting go. And I I gave myself a challenge. Can I let go more and more and more and more? And very very simple things. One of one of the things that I I did in the last few years, I let go of 70% of all my clothes. Wow. Just give away to missions, my shoes, my watches. Just let go. And I come to a place where I want to let go of this church. And I told I told my family, I told my community, I told my friends, I told the leaders. I said that City Harvest as important as it is, I must be willing to let go and to let go of management, to let go of the board. to let go of even running the calendar of the church. I can suggest but I said I'm willing to let it go. You guys have been here as long as I have. I decide 50%. You decide 50%. And if you feel that you don't agree with my decision of what I want, I let it go. Wow. And first I found I worry less. I'm anxious less. And the amazing thing is this experiment that I've been trying the last five years every year our attendance is slowly growing again. Wow. And in missions we are seeing breakthroughs. Wow. So this little experiment I'm trying seems to have some little encouraging signs. sparing fruit that by not being so intense and focused on ministry actually if you can let go more God can take over more and God is a better pastor than I am right he knows what he's doing he knows this is church and eventually you know Peter when I was your age my hair was black and then it became brown and at one time it was blonde At one time you blonde you die blonde. Yeah. At one time you I have an ass over my Do you really I almost I do you know at one time in Taiwan and the hair I got to blame it on Taiwan. The hairdressers from Taiwan. I know. He got saved in my meeting and and during those years he was my he was my official hairdresser and and I have almost a moheaken hairstyle. Yeah. I was like crazy, you know. But now my hair is white. I I I stop caring about I stopped dying my hair. I couldn't even care. I don't even style my hair anymore. I just let go even of my own image. And uh so what I'm trying to say is that you know as I get older I I find that if I can just let go more and let him take over more he always does a better job and I'm a happier person. Yes. I'm a happier person. And I feel that I can if I have discipled my people well without scolding them, without threatening them, but by exemplifying the life of Jesus. Surely Jesus can grow his church. And we are seeing more people getting saved. We have more people saved last year than we have for a long time. Wow. Obviously, we don't have as many in our local congregation, but in our collective membership, we have more than ever before. And I'm not angry. I'm smiling every day. I am not threatening. Yeah. I'm having time in silence and solitude. I'm happier person. That's beautiful. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. I um I mean I could go on like longer just to chat, but um I think this will be a good place to pause for now, but if it's possible, can you just pray a prayer over the people who are watching? Um because this is our first ever conference. I don't actually we we pre we're pre-recording this so I don't even know how many people will be there at the conference. I don't know if it's going to be packed or half empty or whatn not but but I do know the people who are here. Um many of them have known you over the years. Some of them they just got saved maybe within the last two three years. So they're unfamiliar with some of the stories but but I know all of them are here today because they're hungry. They want Jesus. Yeah. They want their lives to be touched by God. They want their lives to be transformed. Yeah. And could it be would it be possible for you just to pray over the people who are watching and I love to do that. And um Yeah. So all of us can just be more like Jesus. Yeah. Come, let's pray. Lord, I just want to thank you that for this wonderful conference, the hope. Lord, I just want to thank you that you're bringing hope to Taiwan, to a whole new generation of Christians and also working again among those that have been serving you for decades and decades. I thank you for Pastor Peter, for his wife, for his family, for his team. Lord, this is a new day for Taiwan. And Lord, in this inaugural conference, Lord, I just pray let there be a release of tremendous hope that the Holy Spirit will move in a great way. Those that are that are watching whether is it online or on site, I pray that help us to be more like Jesus. I pray that the Holy Spirit will draw us, will woo us, will bring us closer into the your inner life, the life of the father, the son, and the holy spirit. the life of love because God you are love and Lord as we are marinated in that love soaked and drenching and being filled to saturation of that love we'll be changed and transformed into the character of Jesus that we'll become people of love ourselves that we cannot help but to share that love to our generation to people everywhere so Lord I just thank you for those that are watching And they may be weary. Some of you watching, you may be weary. You may be tired. You may be burned out. You may be angry. You may be worried and anxious. Come and learn from Jesus. Jesus says, "Learn from me. I'm gentle. I'm loving." Amen. I'm humble at heart and I will give you rest. So there there is a ministry that is restful. There is a a revival where it is more of God and less of us. Lord, you'll give us rest and you'll give us that easy yoke and the light burden. I pray for those that are so heavy burden. I pray today there'll be a release of that burden. Lord, I just pray for all the leaders here in the hope church. I pray for pastor Peter. I pray for all those in leadership that are in this conference. I pray let there be right now a release of that heavy burden of that worry of the anxiety and Lord let us find that easy yoke with Jesus where our lives are transformed to be more and more like Jesus zero anger constant forgiveness and unlimited patience so I bless all the conference attendees and those watching online in Jesus name I pray. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Amen.