BAGUS MULJADI: Chronicles friends, today I am very happy to welcome Dr. Aditia Gunawan. Dr. Aditia Gunawan is an expert I have been wanting to chat with for a long time. So an expert graduated from the École Pratique des Hautes France, and knows a lot about the moral structure, political structure, language, religion of ancient Sunda. Welcome to the Chronicles studio. - Thank you, Mr. Bagus. Nice to be here. It's an honor to be able to join the Chronicles with Mas Bagus. - It's me who feels honored. There are so many things I want to talk to Kang Adit about. Call him Kang Adit, okay? We look like we're the same age. Don't tell him his age. Kang Adit is a philologist from the National Library, right? The affiliation is now from the National Library. - National Library. That's right. - Can you tell us a little about what philology is? - Philology actually literally means philologos, love of words. In its development as a science, namely the science of textual materials, anything written by humans. This means that when we study written materials, including language and literature, we are essentially examining textual materials, especially from periods that have already passed. The knowledge is definitely related because the text is in the document, so we also examine the document. For example, documents from the 8th, 9th, 10th centuries, and so on. So, not only the language aspect, but also the document aspect is studied. Aspects of the age of the manuscript, aspects of the material of the manuscript, and so on. So that we truly understand all aspects of the documentary heritage. - Well, Indonesia has a very broad context. Indonesia, when talking about documents, especially ancient documents, has so many cultures and so many diverse languages. But, the last time I was here yesterday I spoke with Professor Aminuddin Aziz, he said that of the 700 or so languages, only about a dozen have a written basis. As far as I know, from those who have written bases for this, Kang Adit's focus is on ancient Sunda, right? That's right, right? - Yes. - I read Kang Adit's thesis, it is very authoritative in my opinion. Yesterday at a public event, I said the public should understand about ancient Sundanese through Kang Adit's thesis. It was written in French, yes. - That's right. So, the title of Philological Study is Philological Study of Siksa Guru, Sasana Mahaguru, Siksa Kandan Karesian. That's right, right? Could you tell us a little about these ancient Sundanese manuscripts, in terms of the time period or approximately the period in which they were found, how many manuscripts were studied, and the general content of this thesis. - This is actually a rather long journey. My thesis, I started to study ancient Sundanese while working at the National Library. Since 2008. The first time I entered the National Library, I immediately fell in love with Ancient Sundanese. Why? Because the documents that exist in this world are no more than 100. So, we imagine this is a documented language. But the documents are less than 100 pieces. 100 manuscripts is not enough, right? - 100 manuscripts. Thus this is a very rare material. - What about inscriptions? - The inscription was found in West Java, but was written in the days before colonialism and Islam, only around the 30s. - And there are 15 manuscripts in Sundanese. So you can imagine, it's enough to collect 115 documents. That is our knowledge, the gateway to Ancient Sundanese culture. But even with that number, few people venture into the wilderness. Because the small number of documents makes it difficult for us to read the documents. Because there are no comparable contemporary sources. For example, if we want to know the grammar, what books can we refer to, etc., because there aren't any. Because of the lack of documents. So indeed, when you want to read, you have to read everything. We must be able to study those 100 documents. - Approximately in what period of time were these documents discovered or can be studied, and if possible, is there a comparison with Ancient Javanese or Ancient Balinese? Do they have a larger collection of literature? - This is interesting, yes. Old Sundanese, ancient Sundanese is an ancient language, for which we, the Indonesian people, should be grateful. Because it is an ancient variant whose written documentary evidence has survived to this day. Apart from that, there is Old Javanese which is very well known. Then, there is Old Balinese, and there is Old Malay. Besides, the so-called ancient languages, as precedents of languages, these four languages, besides being very rare, almost non-existent. These are the only four languages in the archipelago where we have ancient documents. Each has its own historical trajectory. Their fates are different. Old Malay is more dominant in the Sriwijaya era inscriptions. Ancient Balinese is also the same, 8th century onwards in Bali, before being replaced by Ancient Javanese. It's upside down. In Sunda, documents were found in ancient Javanese. The inscriptions are written in Old Javanese, the manuscripts are written in Old Javanese. It was not until the 14th century that the Sundanese produced their own documents in their own language. In ancient Sundanese. - Where does the language itself actually come from? Does it have anything to do with Sanskrit too, like Javanese? - Actually, the Austronesian languages are in the same family, they are related. Sanskrit is not absorbed linguistically, only vocabulary. The syntactic structure of Old Sundanese is similar to the syntactic structure of Old Javanese, Old Balinese, Old Malay. Same as modern language today. However, Sanskritization was very successful in the early phase of the Java region. For example, Zoetmulder, who wrote the Old Javanese dictionary, said that 40% of the Old Javanese dictionary was borrowed from Sanskrit. That is, we can imagine what English is like now in Indonesian. that's how massive those words were in ancient times. 40% of Old Javanese vocabulary is from Sanskrit. - If we look at studies that delve into ancient texts, we need what is called interpretation or hermeneutics. In the context of Old Sundanese, is there any kind of grammatical authority? So if you're looking at a script, is there a grammatical canon? - There isn't any. - How is the interpretation? - The gateway to philology is "to make the text make sense". Making the text make sense to us, the readers, or make sense to whoever wrote it. We have to understand the hermeneutics, to what extent this means. There should not be a single word that we cannot check. But checking it requires grammar. Need a dictionary. While there are several Old Sundanese, but they are not authoritative. Just pilot projects. But from there it must be built. But we must also study related languages, not close ourselves to Old Sundanese. That Old Sundanese is separate from other ancient language groups as well. That's why Old Javanese is very important for interpreting ancient Sundanese texts. Sanskrit is very important to interpret. Classical Malay, Old Malay are very important. So in my thesis I also created a kind of glossary of almost 50 pages, to record words that are only found or encountered in Sundanese texts, which have different meanings from Old Javanese, and so on. So, it is indeed a pilot project. Moving on to grammar, moving on to more authoritative dictionaries. - The manuscripts studied, from almost how many? A little over a hundred manuscripts, huh? - Yes. Usually when we talk about genre, what is it? Is it a religious text? Is it an epic, a poem? - Everything. - Chronicle? Everything? - At least, almost all of them. Sundanese people of that era, after examining hundreds of documents, we can say that there is something we can reveal about Ancient Sundanese literature. So, we can say about ancient Sundanese literature. Because almost all genres are there. Epic poetry, moral poetry, poetry with characters. Didactic, but in poetry. That is, literary works that are sung. Then, there are religious tracts. Religious works, ranging from religious works that are purely ritualistic, to speculative, metaphysical, philosophical and mystical debates. So, all levels up to the manual. Manual book on how to build housing, open settlements, sky signs. If you want war, read the signs. So, these genres are quite rich even though there are only a hundred of them, but in terms of genre they are quite rich. - So there's something for ordinary people, the general public, huh? There are for teachers, for spiritual leaders, for political leaders, right? - Yes. Of course, these genres are texts that are not created in a vacuum. There must be a function for the text, whether it is read or recited in front of an audience, or used for someone's benefit. There is a difference, yes. Which teachings are for laymen, which are for laypeople, and which are for religious people, because there are three punishments, yes. There is Torture the Cage, Torture the Confinement, and Torture the Kitchen. - Before we get to that, the context here is around the 14th century, - 14-15, yeah. - 14-15. Islam arrived around the century before last, right? - 14 also in Java. - But these manuscripts already have Islamic influence? - There aren't any. - Not yet. - So, we're going in together? - Not even a single Arabic vocabulary was absorbed. It's just that Islam appeared slowly, in the manuscripts of these texts, in texts that were born in a somewhat later period. for example, Old Sundanese text, but the language has started to become modern. There the Islamic nuances began to emerge. For example, there is a Shiva text, a pure Hindu text, but suddenly it mentions that there is swarga, there is heaven, there is the world of Mecca. The city of Mecca is mentioned in a Hindu text, the Shiva text. And it is placed as a part of cosmology in the sky. The paradise of the Siak people is in the land of Mecca, in the sky. So you can imagine what the author of Siwa envisioned, Islamic cosmology combined with Hindu cosmology. - What is interesting is when you look at comparative studies of religion. How does a religion enter a culture? At that time, I was interested in seeing, or at least trying to understand the mechanism of how Islam entered and adapted to ancient Sundanese society. which at that time had, as mentioned earlier, influences from Shiva and Buddhism. What if there were signatures on those manuscripts? It doesn't seem like they're coming in parallel, coming in as a coalition, or completely replacing each other, or what? - This is interesting, because Mas Bagus mentioned the terms parallel coalition. - What I mean is, let me give you some context for those listening. Maybe the term is a bit too abstract. When Christianity first began in the 1st century, from the Middle East at the time when Jesus ascended to heaven, then his disciples, the apostles, began to teach Christianity throughout the surrounding lands. In Greece at that time there was already religion. There is stoicism, there is epicureanism. So one of the apostles, for example Paul, he goes in there and he has to wrestle with the existing concepts. At that time, for example, they did not believe there was such a thing as God. What is believed is what is called "oneness". Oneness, oneness. So there is "oneness", abstract truth. Well, Christianity has to adapt to that. And he said that what is called "oneness" is God. Reflected into three personalities. Well, that's Christian doctrine. And when Islam met the Greeks, he said, "Oh, that's monotheism." - Yes. Shiva, Buddha did not openly acknowledge any kind of "oneness". There is a group of gods. To my knowledge. How does it fare with monotheistic Islam? - That in the text we will indeed find many gods. It seems as if this world is full of gods and goddesses. In ancient Sundanese literary texts, there is a journey to heaven, meeting God A, God B, and Z. But always above all of that, we will reach a highest point. There is one entity that oversees all of this. There are many synonyms. There is Sang Hyang Tunggal, there is Sang Hyang Wisesa, there is Purwawisesa, and so on. The nature is also the same. He is described as unthinkable, unimaginable. Acintya. - This is the hierarchy of the gods, huh? - Yes. - There are forms that still exist in Bali today, there are spiritual forms. The immaterial and the material form. The gods that we know, are forms of sakala. Manifestation of God's power. God himself, the supreme being, is "oneness". "Oneness" is the characteristic I mentioned earlier. That is why in fact, texts like this, when Islam entered the archipelago, especially in Java, did not have any very prominent contradictions. For example, if we translate the Dewa Ruci text, he translates from Dewa Ruci which has a Buddhist character. Because the nature is the same, he only changed the term God to an Islamic term, and automatically the text became a Sufi text, without drastically changing the existing structure of the Hindu-Buddhist text. This means that the process of Islamization can occur through translations of literary works, without losing their essence. - It does help with the structure being a bit parallel, huh? Well, what is interesting is the thesis, I hope the audience will also read it, because it is very comprehensive. It is said to be a "cascaded heaven" there. A kind of journey of a spirit, a spirit to go to the Most Noble. He passed through several levels of heaven. And what's really interesting, the levels are also gender specific. There is a special paradise for devout women. A woman who obeys her husband. Well, I don't see any parallels in other religions. - That's right. - There is a kind of authenticity. - I totally agree. So that's it. Indeed, when I study these ancient Sundanese texts, what we are looking for are distinctive characteristics. But these characteristics can be known if we compare them with others. When we compare it with Old Javanese texts, for example, we don't find things like this. Or with Islamic texts. Although there is a journey to heaven such as Isra Mi'raj, Journey to heaven, journey to hell, exists in religious traditions. But in Sundanese what interests me is the feminist element. Strong feminism, that the sky is not dominated by men. The gods. There is even a supreme figure, for example Sunan Ambu who is also mentioned in the text, if we light incense to the east it is to Batara Iswara, to the south it is Batara Brahma, to the west it is Mahadewa. The smoke. Then to the north is Vishnu, if in the middle to Shiva. But if he goes all the way up, he reaches Sunan Ambu. These are the five gods that are common in Hinduism until now. Five Gods in Bali. But above that there is still Sunan Ambu, in the cosmological structure of Sunda. It's unique, and not normative. We can only find it in the ancient Sundanese tradition. - So, looking at the definition of religion, in his thesis it is also mentioned from Durkheim, that one of the definitions of religion is the unification of belief systems and practices. Because the genre of these Sundanese manuscripts concerns cosmology, religion, the Tiered Heavens that we discussed earlier, and which Kang Adit also mentioned, there are rules for lay people, for spiritualists, for political leaders. Does this mean it can be said that ancient Sundanese itself was also a religion in Durkheim's context? - Yes. Actually, I want us not to get caught up in the dichotomy of understanding religion today. That's one. I also don't label, for example, in my dissertation, Sundanese religion as meaning the religion of the Sundanese people in the 15th century. Not Sundanese religion. But our religion, the Sundanese, in the 15th century. So what I mean, we don't know if there are denominations for religion. The pattern is Saiwa, of course, very prominent. There is mention of Shiva as the strongest figure among the gods. But there are local figures that appear within that cosmology. And in a way, this is also parallel to what happened in Java, and so on. And that is indeed the aspect of Shaiva, which the Shaiva religion also features prominently. - There is a name, if I'm not mistaken, Namo Syiwa, Namo Budhaya. - Yes. Namo Jiwa Palipurna. Interestingly, there are three greetings that are called as they are now. Peace be upon you. Best wishes. Om Namah Shivaya. The author of Siksa Kandang uses three greetings. Namah Shivaya, the religion of Shiva. Namo Buddhaya, Buddhism. Namo Jiwa Paripurna, a soul that has died perfectly. Ancestors. This means there is respect for Shiva, for Buddha, and for ancestors. - Earlier we discussed religion, the entry of language, compared to Old Malay, Old Balinese, Old Javanese. Well, regarding the dissertation itself, there were four manuscripts that were studied. Sang Hyang Ayu, Teacher's Torture, Sasana Maha Guru. Just what was mentioned earlier, Siksa Kandang Karesian. - Yes. - What we know is that the Karesian Cage Torture is included in the UNESCO Memory of the World. That means there are special attributes there. Before we get into each of these manuscripts, could you briefly mention what the genre and scope of Sanghyang Hayu, Siksa Guru are? - Those four books, huh? - The four books. From Sanghyang Hayu first. - First, those four books were my way of entering the gateway to understanding Sundanese religion. Therefore, there are four main books that can help us understand the most important aspects of religion, because of their prescriptive nature. Like the laws, the holy books. The statutes. From the oldest Sanghyang Hayu. The oldest and most numerous manuscripts. - So this is kind of canon, huh? - Yes, canon. - Like in Christianity, there is an old testament, a new testament. This is the Sundanese canon, right? - Yes. I can say that because there is nothing left. The texts we found were already intended to be used for claims by certain parties. First, Sanghyang Hayu is the thickest ancient Javanese book. You could say that. The only one thicker than him is Bhuana Kosa. that ancient Javanese text. Second, Sanghyang Hayu, which has hundreds of almost 150 leaf lempiras. And there are 15 manuscripts that copy. It means it was very popular at that time. Then, the content is very systematic. - One thing that the public might need to know is to look at the hierarchy of literature, usually we look at which literature is most cited by other literature. In that context, Sanghyang Hayu is sort of at the top of the hierarchy, seeing as he is the source of citations for many of the books below him. - But what is worth noting is that it is in ancient Javanese. - Not Sundanese. But in Java we hardly find the script, only one. Strange. This is an ancient Javanese manuscript, but it is found mainly in the Sunda region. Was this book never used in ancient Java? Never been in Bali? But the book is very thick and very systematic, from cosmology to things concerning metaphysical speculation, about moksha, about the union of the soul with God. Interestingly, put the book of Sufism if the word Islam. His knowledge. There is a second level, Teacher Torture. Torturing teachers is a jurisprudence in Islam. Ritual procedures, ethics towards teachers, ethics towards the environment in religion. That's Teacher Torture. Old Javanese too, but only in Sundanese. - Sorry, just a moment. So Siksa means "precept", right? Rule. - Yes, teachings. - Rules for teachers? - No, from the teacher. - Rules from the teacher. That's the second level. Well, Sasana Mahaguru is not actually the third level. He is the author who is trying to compile Sanghyang Hayu and Siksa Guru. Sundanese. So, two ancient Javanese books concerning morals, metaphysics and tauhid, divinity, were summarized in Old Sundanese. It is the oldest translation process in the archipelago. From Old Javanese, an ancient language to another ancient language, to Sundanese. - Javanese is from the 10th century, and it was first translated in the 15th century. - There is a translation that I find interesting, there is Old Sundanese translating from Old Javanese, two Babon books into one Sundanese babon book. This means that there is a very real effort at vernacularization, related to perhaps Sundanese people starting to feel, "Okay, it's time for me to teach religion using my own language." The Great Teacher's Hall is like that. Not only talking about metaphysics, but also about procedures, and so on. So, one complete book. From two separate Javanese books, it becomes one complete compilation from A to Z. That's more or less it. That's the third one. But still we only know the religious teachings there. But lastly, the most important is the Karesian Cage Torture, which became the Memory of the World. Why? Therefore for the layman the teachings of the sage realm, but for the practice of social life. We can see more or less the socio-religious situation of the Sundanese people at that time, through these four books. Only then will the other texts be like orbits that surround it. If this text talks about teachings about this, this is the main one. So, we don't get lost reading other texts. Because there is already an encyclopedia dictionary in these four books. - It is important to understand that the structure of major religions has such a canonical hierarchy. For example, in Catholicism, there is something called the apocrypha. Apocrypha is on the same level as convention. Council. But still under the old covenant, the new covenant. He is in the middle. - Even the Vedas are never mentioned. Strange, right? - The Vedas are never mentioned? - What is called in Ancient Sundanese Sanghyang Hayu is called Watang Ageung. What does it mean? The big book, the babon book. It is true that Sanghyang Hayu is authoritative because Sundanese people call him Watang Ageung. A basic book that will explain everything about divinity. - Where are those things called kitchen torture, cages and cages? - That is the conceptual structure created by Sundanese people at that time, regarding types of teachings, types of torture. Types of rules. If we make the Criminal Code regulations, for example, civil law, criminal law, and so on. Has its own logic, a colonial legacy. Sundanese have their own heritage based on who the law is intended for. The meaning of the cage is indeed as it is now. Pen. - Chicken coop. - And in one cage there can be dozens of chickens there. The cage is for one chicken only. The cage torture is torture for the general public. - He's at the bottom, right? - The very bottom. - Rules for the general public. Torture brackets rules for certain communities, namely religious communities. Rules for students. Kitchen torture. The kitchen is not our kitchen, "kitchen". Dapur means "root". Root, base. Basic rules. In other words, the source of the rules. That is indeed the highest rule, regarding teachings concerning divinity. - Means metaphysical existence in the kitchen torture. The one in the cage is more towards translation. My imagination might be like some kind of Torah. This means, if you have touched a dead body, wash your hands several times. - That's right. That's a real cage torture. - Very torture cage. Torture cage regulates defecation on the road, seven times from the road. Is not it? If there are guests, what should you do? - Without explaining what the essence is. People just have to follow it. - It depends. Depends. The law of that era in the Karesian Cage Torture, if I read it, is unique as a text. Its nature is encyclopedic, its nature is advisory, its nature also has a little threat. It is indeed very complex in the Karesian Cage Torture, right down to matters of cleanliness. - Means very sophisticated, very detailed for the level of social structure. There are laws of its own, right? - Yes, unfortunately there is no explanation. Just enumeration. A, B, C, D, without explaining what A is, what B is, what C is, what D is. - In the Torture Cage. - For example, if we find that there are 24 motifs that we say are like this, if we want to know about weaving, ask a pangeyek, a weaving expert. What are the motives? A, B, C, D, E. He just said it. Not mentioning what A's motive is, what B's is. But that's what makes our door, it turns out Sunda has a lot of wealth. For example, mentioning about interpreters, about ambassadors. Called the interpreter of dharma murcaya. If you want to ask about foreign languages of the islands outside the island, ask the Dharma Murcaya language interpreter. What are the languages? It is said that there are almost 50 regions, including Mecca, Egypt, Persia. That era, yes. Maluku is called Maloko. This means that the ancient Sundanese authors had geographical insight that encompassed the Atlas of Asia. That is, it is very encyclopedic actually. - That's right. Encyclopedia. - But not the encyclopedic sense we understand today, of course. - Could you please provide a contextual overview, when compared to other societies of the same era? For example, Ancient Java at that time. Do they have that level of sophistry? I think everyone has their own. But the problem is, there are ways of expressing inner wealth that may give birth to different expressions. For example, in Sundanese, if we read Old Javanese Kakawin or Old Malay Hikayat, the language is circular. It's very flowery to say A where we went first. Sundanese people don't. Direct. - But it's a rhyme, right? - Carita pantun is different from the pantun we now call Malay pantun. The meaning of the Sundanese pantun story is epic, "epic poem". Epic poetry, poetry about characters. There is indeed a rhyme. But straight away. That's what's interesting, different ways of expression. - That's right. I've been to the Riau Islands, if I'm not mistaken. Old Malay is in that area, right? There are 12 Gurindam. It's actually a bit canonical, like the Torah law but there are 12. The language is a little different, with a slightly different language structure. Oh I see. So there is a kind of meaning I generally believe language influences the personality of a nation, its people and its people. Does that then influence the personality of Sundanese people making them more "direct"? - I'm sure so. I feel so. In the Old Sundanese texts there is no politeness. There is nothing, what Sundanese people now say, undak usuk basa. It was brought from Mataram in Java, so for example for eating there are various names for the verb. If I eat, Neda. Other older people, pour. If it's an animal that eats, it's different again. In the Old Sundanese texts it does not exist. Like Indonesian now. That is what we find in Badui today, who do not know, there are politeness, there are manners, there are registers for politeness, but it is not as complex as it is now in Priangan, for example. Even now in some areas, for example in Banten, from the Priangan point of view this is rough. Even though it preserves, in some aspects, the Old Sundanese language which does not exist - There are no levels of language. - Different from Java, right? - Different from Java. Java is with Priangan, with Sumedang, Bandung. Because they were greatly influenced during the Mataram kingdom era. - Yes, it really affects. Like the time with Professor Aminuddin, one of his post-doctoral subjects was politeness theory. How a culture responds to eternal messages or eternal truths. How to convey messages regarding the concept of politeness. In Java it is very complex in terms of what can be said directly, what cannot be said directly. Sundanese is because it doesn't have levels of greeting. That is, speaking to anyone regardless of social hierarchy is a bit more equal, compared to Javanese. I think it makes people convey messages more literally, more explicitly. - Some say this, anthropologists of the past, I tend to believe it too, that the Sundanese people at that time were more inclined to be farming people, not rice farmers. When farming, people move around and don't have much time to interact with neighbors and others. Different from the rice farming communities who are truly settled. So that communication space becomes somewhat limited. Just as necessary when chatting. So, it does not create a complex communication system. Maybe that also has an effect. I tend to, yes, that's true. If I go to Badui, for example, we'll see what their activities are. As long as it's not important, why chat? Go to the fields, come home, like that. - More "direct" therefore, speak only as necessary. - Just as needed. - Well that's interesting, getting more interesting. I want to go into that doctrine. Two of the four in Kang Adit's thesis have been discussed. God and the Soul, there is the concept of Oneness, there is cosmology, there is a cascaded heaven, but there is also what is called the upper world and the lower world. Upper world and underworld. There are actually several levels of the upper world in Sundanese cosmology. There are several levels of underworld. The upper one is the suffix, behind it is the loka. The one under is the tuning. Can you tell us a little? - That is actually common in Hindu religious traditions, especially the Shiva religion. We found that in Bali actually. Very common in Old Javanese texts. Like a bee, a beehive. If the world is down. If the world is above, it is like a rice stove. So the pyramid is downwards, the pyramid is upside down. So, seven up, seven down. In our midst, the human world. Actually, in other Sundanese texts it is not very dominant. But, what I mean is this, the three parts of the cosmos need to be in constant balance. Each, for example for the underworld, who takes care of it. If you want to be moksa, just take care of the things above. What about the one below, what is its role? It turns out he is a cosmic balancer. So there are names of priests, for example, Bujangga who are specifically for controlling the underworld. If there's an earthquake, if there's- - This is on a literal level too, right? Down in terms of underground? - No. Down in all things that make this world blind in the giant, dwelling creatures that need to be entertained, not driven away. Enjoyed. So that the harmony of nature becomes harmonious again. More or less like that. When certain events occur, the blind people who live in the underworld are happy. And there are different special priests, only in charge of that ritual, who are often called exorcists in Christian tradition . Exorcism. - Exorcism, banishment. - But in our context it is not an expulsion. Fun, entertaining. We pamper this blind man to be nice to us. That's the concept. Not expelled. - There is a more reconciliatory approach to these blind people, than Christianity has to the devil and demons. It is more of a nature - This nature is more in Sundanese, perhaps in pre-modern Javanese society. - This is interesting because in the ancient Bugis culture, I once chatted with Prof. Nurhayati Rahman, the concept of upper world and under world. In their cosmology, in the book La Galigo, it is stated that humans are indeed the guardians of balance. But what is called the underworld and the upper world, has a relationship with the geographical concept there because they are a seafaring nation. So, under the sea and above the sea. There is a kind of environmental ethics derived from that. Because it is thought that humans maintain the balance between the sea and the above. Even urinating in rivers or the sea is not allowed. Is there something like this in Sundanese? - In terms of cosmology, ancient Sundanese texts are actually more related to cosmology in terms of religion. Although human reactions to nature are present in Sundanese texts, for example, if we read the signs of nature, what does this signify? This means, he sees how nature should be responded to. There is a text, for example, Warugan Lemah. Warugan is a body shape. Weak is the land. So, the typography of land forms. This means that when Sundanese people want to build a building, they will first look at the weak warugan. - Like feng shui means, right? In Chinese culture. - Yes, similar. But it's different, in Sunda it's focused on the land contour. If the land contour is sloping in which direction is it good or not? Facing which way? Yes, it's similar to feng shui too. Can it be occupied or not? If possible, the term is interesting, Talaga Hangsa. Can you imagine, there is a lake and swans. The lake is nature, the geese are us. So harmonious. - Talaga Hangsa. There are several qiblas, orientations. Swan Lake, land that slopes to the north. The one to the west is called, if I'm not mistaken, because I've also read about weak warugan. This is the book, viewers, Kang Aditia wrote about weak warugan. Talaga Hangsa is a term for land that tends to slope downward to the north. Banyu metu is a term for land that tends to slope towards the west. Purbatapa to the east. Ambek, pataka, petaka, to the south. What is said to be allowed to be built is the northern one, the talaga hangsa one. The rest? - The rest is not prohibited, it is allowed. Bad influence. But if we perform ritual cleansing through mantras, by pleasing these beings, it is possible, although there are still risks. The manuscript is only three pages, sir. Three sheets only mention that the land here is called this. It's ugly to live in. But if you want to live in it, this mantra and the medicines must be provided with the ritual ingredients. - Those who are listening must read this book. Weak Warugan. Weak means land. Weak Warugan. Because I had already done my homework before chatting with Kang Adit. I let the audience know. There is a secular journal, Geoscience Letters, written by a writer from Western Michigan University, even though he is Indonesian. The title is Landslide Susceptibility Assessment Using Frequency Ratio Model in Bogor, West Java, Indonesia. It is said that in the city of Bogor, several points in the Bogor area were studied, which have curvatures facing north, south, southwest, northeast, all sorts. Indeed, it was found there that, I read the quote, "The most observed landslide deposits with 18 observations were in south-facing slopes." Most of the landslides found from 18 observations were facing south. Ambek pataka. - Wow, that's true, isn't it? - But it doesn't stop there, because what is being researched is not only the south. Most landslides were found from 18 observations facing south. The second highest number faces northeast, number three faces east, then faces southwest with the one to the south being 18, then successively 17, 15, and 14 landslide events. So, indeed the one to the north, the one at Talaga Hangsa, is the best. In the context of mid-latitude regions in tropical forests. In the northern hemisphere it is different again. But specifically in tropical areas with mid-latitudes, a kind of explanation is given which I find a bit strange. because if for example we have a prediction between A or B, and it happens to be B. That's not strange, because it's 50%. That's called coincidence. There are four potentials. North, south, west, east. And it is indeed true that the Swan Lake is the least prone to landslides. This is getting weird. Is this some kind of knowledge in a non-modern scientific form, which we can then simply dismiss. - I read the article that Mas Bagus shared earlier. A little. What tickled me was that the author took all the historical factual reports about landslides written in scientific journals. I imagine the author of Warugan Lemah did not write the article, but he had collected historical facts. From the times told by our ancestors from long ago. These experiences were recorded and applied to create this manual. Weak Warugan Manual. So, I think the human experience is the same regarding nature. The one at the moment is proven, right? Indeed, the areas mentioned earlier, from the east to the west, are more vulnerable. In the past, it might have been common knowledge. But after the author of Warugan Lemah, we lost that experience and transmission of knowledge. - We lost it. Indeed, the language, when written in Warugan Lemah, talaga hangsa, the topography of the land leans to the left, meaning north. This type of topography is considered good because it brings affection from others. It's said to bring affection, but it has nothing to do with landslides. The language is not a landslide. Banyu metu is not good because it causes kaneneh. - Our favorite kaneneh. - Purba tapa always loses sympathy, that's why it's not good. Ambek Patakan seems to be the worst. Including bad topography because it causes other people to feel hurt. That's the language, you know. - Yes, it is true. - So, it's not said that if you face right you'll have an accident. - Not with us. - Well, this is what led me to try to find out, whether we have some kind of knowledge, proto-knowledge, that allows us to have the leap to understand the contemporary world. Because I have discussed it in the previous episode in the context of Yogyakarta. He also has a kind of knowledge that has been passed down through generations, through the experience of living side by side with Mount Merapi. It is believed that if the guardian of the southern sea, Nyi Roro Kidul, starts to rumble, starts to get angry, it is usually because she has a relationship with the guardian of Mount Merapi. Mount Merapi will also rumble later. Then, precisely in the 1960s when the Scientific Vessels ship from America carrying a gravimeter discovered a magma path that overlapped the philosophical axis between Mount Merapi and the South Sea. In 2006, it was discovered that the epicenter of the earthquake was around the Opak River. Well, it's knowledge like this that I think is a bit of a shame. According to Kang Adit, do you think there are any others? - I think there is, if we cover all aspects of culture. If we want to do a little exploitation, not mining exploitation, but historical exploitation. There are still many sources that we can explore. And if I can find a Weak Warugan, it's only three lempirs. There are a hundred manuscripts, perhaps hundreds of tablets still remaining, which could shed light if we examine them in depth. Maybe we have missed a lot, and there are definitely a lot. I found the legal strata in Siksa Kandang in one paragraph. - Just one paragraph? I noted that specially. There are seven tiers, right? Can you tell me? - That's part of one of the encyclopedias mentioned earlier. There are interpreters, there are legal experts, their names are signs. What are the duties of the signs? He knows the types of law, from the lowest to the highest strata. What's the first one? Program. The event is traditional. Custom. Then, there are religions and super-religions. Adigama is sacred law. The written book. Codified text. - Maybe this needs to be seen, the dissertation is very comprehensive for those who watch it. There are seven tiers if I read from Kang Adit's thesis. One, the event. Custom, customary, customs. Then above it, not below it, there is the codified statute, which is written law. Now it's like the Criminal Code. Then above it, guru gama. Is that the teaching of a religious teacher? - Yes. Teacher's teachings. - Teacher's teachings. Above it is the Gama temple. God gama? Teachings of elders, elders. Above it is one eye. - One eye is an agreement between the two parties. Agreement. Like a moral collective. - Not yet collective. Like a deal. - Oh, like a letter of agreement. - Like an agreement between two conflicting parties. Nowadays, agreements are probably stamped with a stamp, right? - Yes. Mediation. If there are two conflicting parties. - So, if you have a stamp, the agreement is at a level above village elders and religious teachings. - Yes, that's right. - On top of that, it's amazing. There was Surakloka, loud protests, demonstrations. - Expressions of disapproval expressed by the public. So the expression of cheering is if you are supporting Persib, cheer for Persib. Cheering, cheering crowd. That is, public aspirations. - In the legal system level in Ancient Sundanese there is a special place for what in western culture is called public disobedience. Public expression of anger or displeasure. There is room for that. Not considered a disruption to the status quo. And most importantly, the top one is speech. - Speech means court, judicial process. There are judges, there are witnesses, there are suspects like we are now. That era already existed. This speech was still used during the colonial era. The word speak is in context- - Speech is talking, yes. - Like a judicial forum. - Well, this is interesting because we know that the law in Indonesia is derived from the Netherlands. The Netherlands was colonized- Kang Adit studied in France, right? Colonized by France. France's law is positive law, statute law. I have also discussed that in France there was the French Revolution, which made people build laws from the bottom, which were then codified by Napoleon, so that the highest level in the French judicial system was written law. And Indonesia was also influenced by that law, so that the Criminal Code is really a direct translation of French law. The word stealing is punishable by 5 years with a fine of how many francs, exactly the same as in France. That's a problem in my opinion in the analysis. Because now, if indigenous people, including Sundanese people, have a land dispute, I no longer see them going back to customary law first, then to codified statutes, then to religious teachers rulings, and then to talk. He immediately reported it to the police. I found this phenomenon also in Yogyakarta. All the judicial systems of his ancestors were lost. He immediately entered the realm of the Criminal Code. My question is, can we actually build our own judicial system considering the sophistry of these 7 tiers? - Yes. Sometimes in practice we do that. for example, before going to the police, we should resolve it amicably. In fact, there is no room to resolve a legal case, case A is not finished with this. That is, in ancient times, why did Tuha Gama and Guru Gama then Sat Mata. I see it as a social fact as well. Sometimes when we have a conflict, if it concerns a conflict in our region, we socialize with university circles, with the faculty teachers, and with the faculty senate to resolve it. This is probably what it means. Is not it? Then, if we have a dispute with family and others, regarding inheritance, perhaps in Tuha Gama. - I see the logic of this is actually quite extraordinary. I don't know whether the public underestimates it or not. Because Sat Mata is a moral collective. It is located above the codified statute Adigama. Far, from 5 to 2. This gives room for this legal system to adapt to the times. That's the point. Why? Because if the law is written at the top, he is dead, written in stone. The moral collective continues to evolve. For example, in England the law is different from that in France, because it uses Common Law, not the Civil Law Napoleonic code. So, what is called stealing, we used the example of stealing earlier. Stealing in the UK is not taking someone else's property illegally as in the Criminal Code. but stealing is taking someone else's property dishonestly. Dishonesty is a collective moral. Because it is subjective, it is not honest according to whom. It is true, in the 17th year there were those who defended themselves because they were oppressed. He is indeed innocent. He didn't know that taking it was dishonest. He defended himself. Because in England the one above is the one who speaks, He won the case. Finally, it was redefined again in 18 or so, that what was meant by dishonest was according to the collective morals of that era. and will be continuously adjusted according to the collective morals of the times. Because of the influence of David Hume. An empiricist. And I was very surprised to see which logic was above, which was below. This is not random. If reversed, the consequences would be far-reaching. - And it's not logical if it's reversed. - It's not logical. What's interesting is that at the top is speech, speech. I think this statement has lost its dignity now. What is called speech is dishonest speech, hate speech, nonsense. Even statements made under oath cannot be taken into account in court, because they are not codified. This means that according to Sundanese people, speaking has the highest status. - There is a Sundanese idiom, a person is judged by his words, which makes the quality of a person his words. - In Java there is also, ajining diri saka lathi. - In Sundanese I forgot the idiom. But that's the point. We know the word warah. In Sundanese there is the word warah. Warah meaning was once a saying, which has now developed into a teaching. The teachings we receive begin with words. Those words are indeed something sacred. Honesty is really valued. If you're not honest, then so be it. From direct words blacklist. - I see now, dishonesty is displayed in a vulgar manner. There is no longer any shame in people saying A today, then B tomorrow. In public we see without naming names, increasingly ordinary people changing their statements drastically in a matter of days. It is a reflection that pure Sundanese people should truly respect speech. Well, we want to talk about the context of doctrine, from ancient Sundanese teachings to look at contemporary problems. In Indonesia, there is a kind of culture to extract minerals from the earth. I may have said it wrong by saying it was culture. This is not necessarily a value shared by everyone in Indonesia. But we see high-profile cases, including nickel mining in Raja Ampat, and so on. Those are controversial things. On the one hand, without mineral extraction, we probably wouldn't have progressed from the Stone Age to the Bronze Age. The Bronze Age then the Golden Age. From those times, it is explicit in it- - There are weapons, there is copper. - There is copper, there are agricultural products. How Sundanese people view the relationship between humans and underground minerals. - This needs more serious research, yes. There are mining areas that may have existed for a long time. In ancient Sundanese texts there is the term "pinka", for an iron processor. Blacksmith. It's not even just iron. In Sundanese texts there are blacksmiths, bracelet smiths for making bracelets, there are omas smiths for goldsmiths, making gold. So there are some gilders, who make jewelry, weapons. There is even armor for war. The point is, there must be mining there. But to what extent it is exploitative and destructive, I don't think so. That era was definitely only for the practical needs of that time. So, the historical basis of mining exists. But on what scale, that definitely needs to be re-researched. Is there any evidence or records or any kind of historical relics that describe the relationship between Sundanese or Badui people and land? - Land is feminine, its name is the same as in the archipelago. That's actually a wedik tradition. Motherland. Father Angkasa. From the Vedas, we can find that. These characteristics make the treatment of land very sacred. For example, in Badui we see that they are not allowed to use hoes. If you hoe, you have to use your hands. - In Bedouin you can't use a hoe? - Yes. We can't just hoe carelessly. But use your hands. Be careful. You are not allowed to use roof tiles in your house, because they are made of clay. And the position is below. If it is above us it is the same as being buried. - Oh, you don't use clay, do you? - I don't use it. So use coconut leaves. There is such an idea, and there is also Dewi Sri. Dewi Sri is the one who produces rice. From mythology, she is the wife of Lord Vishnu, who descended to grant fertility. The feminine nature automatically makes it impossible to treat the land using a tractor. - Because she is like a mother. - Yes. Imagine if in the past we just weaved, it was like worship. We do our daily activities, farming, it is like worship, self-actualization, our life as a whole, to get moksha. Our reward is what was previously called cosmology. We will get heaven there. For those who obey their husbands, just weaving every day, there will be a portion for them later in life. This means that every step we take, like now my podcast, is not only meant to fulfill a schedule, but also to fulfill my self-actualization, during our duties in the world, more or less. Well, so exploitation would not be possible if people's awareness of life was as I imagine. - This is a very important issue, not only in a local context, but globally. Indeed, the world's environmental ethics orientation is still from the West. We talk about Aldo Leopold, all sorts of things. But I do feel that Indonesia has a lot of untapped epistemic potential. About how we understand the meaning of living side by side with nature. I have a suspicion that there are actually richer people than we imagine. remembering how extraordinary and detailed the judicial system is in just a few attached pages. Earlier we proved that in the context of urban spatial planning, it was scientifically proven. This scientific journal does not say that warugan is weak. He has nothing to do with it. It's really just using data, but verifying. I am a numerical math person. I can make any model. I want to make a model that shows how many seconds it takes me to pour water into a glass , where the water is, what the pressure is, and what the speed is. I can model it, but the model is only as good as the data that calibrates it. In this context, models of spatial planning are attested many years after the primary sources were written. If anyone studies numerical mathematics, they know that it is a very rare kind of coincidence. You can't control things like that. That is an illustration of the explanatory power of the model. Because the calibrator is completely unrelated to the model itself. So, it's impossible to fake it, it's impossible to manipulate it. There is one more point in the third part of the doctrine in Kang Adit's dissertation, about ascetics in social structures. It is stated that there are three threads that are wrapped around each other, which regulate the political and religious elite. His name is Tritantu, three tantu. King, Rama, Resi. Can you explain? - This can be length times width times height, because it often appears in Sundanese discourse, especially related to the division of three patterns of power. Like Montesquieu's political triad in Sundanese style. It is often said - What year was Montesquieu? Age of Enlightenment. 18th Century - We were first. - So the context is about 300 years earlier. - King, political power. The literal meaning is ruler or king, Prabu. Then, Rama. Rama is in the function of trading agriculture. - Elder - Father, yes, now. Village elders who take care of agriculture and trade. - The elder. - Yes. Then, lastly, Resi. Resi is risi in Sanskrit, religious circles, ascetics. It is always referred to as tritantu. Tantu means thread. Tritantu di buana nu bageuhkeun buana. Three threads that bind the world, that make this world stable. Those are the three human powers behind weapons. In Siksa Kandang it is said that only three groups received weapons. Prabu's weapons, machete, keris. The Kujang that we have made a symbol of the city of Bogor and West Java in general, is the weapon of Rama, the farmer, the peasant. What is Resi's weapon? Pangot knife. Pangot knife for writing lontar. Sharpening knife. These three groups are indeed the elite. Which determines the fate of many people. Each has a task that makes this all balanced. One is in charge of the intellectual, scientific, and religious areas. Receipt. One in the political realm of power. One in the economic area, Rama. This political trias has indeed been proven to exist. Very rich in Sundanese sources. Interestingly, Rama was sometimes under the direction of Prabu, the king, but Rishi, there was competition, then mutual influence, mutual respect between Prabu and Rishi. I sometimes see the phenomenon of political power now, where political rulers, party leaders meet with kiai, meet with religious figures here. Always there, but that doesn't mean they are below, the religious figure is actually in a position above. Disowani, the term. I see traces of these three elements persisting quite subtly. Even though we dichotomize it differently now, I always see a king coming to the resi, who follows Rama. I always imagined it like that. - So, what is more contentious or more vulnerable is the relationship between the king and Rama, not the more contentious, more dependent one, right? - Yes. With more peer receipts, yes. Not peers, more on the same level. - It was said that the king scratched the rock, he said. If you make a decision, you have to be firm. If Rama is weak, he is absent. It is mentioned in the Parayangan story, not my own work. Scratching the ground, meaning he is making boundaries. This is our area, mapping the rice fields. Economic division. Resi scratched the cai, he splashed the water. This means he has to be sociable. He must flow like water, entering all circles, providing knowledge, becoming a container for all. That's where the role is different. In Badui, people still call the three inner villages Tantu. Aunt Telu. Three Tangtu. Cikertawana, Cikeusik, and Cibeo. Like traces of living traditions there. - Does it mention there, the optimal relationship for these three threads? What should it be like? - The point is that everyone looks after each other and everything I learned from the ancient Sundanese texts is that you will be comfortable there. Professional in one of those fields. If Rama jumps here, the world will not be right. The message is always like that which I read. - One thing I think China did effectively was to maintain the boundary between the king and the king. Maintaining the sanctity of Rama himself. I mean, in China I see businessmen can be as rich as they want. With a free market. Jack Ma, for example. But as soon as he started to walk towards the king, he disappeared for a moment. How many months has Jack Ma been missing? People said, maybe his hands were handcuffed, he was being punished. So, what the Chinese government is really maintaining is a clear boundary between politics and business. In countries, even in America, we see Elon Musk with Donald Trump, even though they are now divorced again, but it looks like they are king and king. They should be on their own, right? - If it's in the text like that. If you want to be universal, each person has their own world. - That's amazing. Because it is between Prabu and Rama. Prabu with resi, political elite with academic elite are also problematic. We call this a conflict between knowledge and power. - Yes, it is true. - I see a tendency, I hope I'm wrong, there is a tendency for conflict between sages and kings, in the context of writing new Indonesian history. Because history is the realm of the sage, actually. History is a scientific discipline. History is the past narrated. One must be careful when starting to enter into the patronage of the king. I also see the context in BRIN, for example. It's a kind of relationship between kings, power, and knowledge. - Even though in the past there were pilgrims. Kawi raja, became a royal poet in Ancient Java. The person who wrote Desawarnana or Nagarakertagama was a palace poet, who was commissioned to write Desawarnana. So, it does exist in the area of Ancient Javanese culture. But in Old Sunda, I did not find such patronage. The author never stated that this work was commissioned by the king, I created the work for that. There is not a single work that explicitly mentions that. Perhaps we can conclude that these sages were indeed independent. In fact, he created the Karesian Cage Torture rules that govern society in general. This means that these two cultures can have different contexts in this matter, and this is very interesting in my opinion. - I see that there is a lot that Indonesia itself can learn. About the relationship between tantu in the context of Ancient Sunda. Because I saw that he was starting to get involved in the tangled threads between academics and the ruling class, and the religious class. It looks very liquid. One can get in everywhere, causing conflicts of interest. It seems that people still don't understand the latent danger of mixing these three threads, which has been warned about for a long time. - The message from the author of Carita Parahyangan, he is very critical, this author, of the king who tried to become a sage. There is a tendency for kings at the end of their lives, namely Mandito Rojo, King Pandito, to withdraw into the forest to become hermits. If anything happens, come down the mountain. For example, SBY came down from the mountain. - I once heard Mr. Soeharto say something like that. There is such a concept, but there is also a tendency in the final days of the kingdom to collapse. - The author criticized the Sunda kingdom which was attacked by Cirebon, Demak, Pajajaran and would be destroyed. Why is the king acting like he is fasting, performing penance like a hermit? Even though the country is in an era of destruction. So the author of Carita Parahyangan's criticism is very explicit. If you are a king, as a king you must serve. Don't pretend to be a resi, try to be a resi just to escape from political responsibilities in your duties as a king. Interesting, I see. - Wow! Very interesting. It's a remarkably complex and detailed structure, considering it was in the 15th century. In closing, I would like to draw a conclusion in the postcolonial context. I once, please verify if I'm wrong, received information that what is called the stelsel culture was first born in Cirebon. The first time there was interaction between the Dutch and the nobility, it was in West Java before the practice was brought to Central Java. Can you tell us what changed over time when that was done? Even though at that time, West Java already had a fairly sophisticated structure. - We must admit that in the context of Sundanese history, there is a gaping missing link between the 15th century period. Then there was Islam through Cirebon, Banten, and not many historical sources that show cultural aspects. So the historical aspect is more migration, then power, letters from kings, and so on. But the purely Sundanese aspects, in quotation marks, which are unique like Siksa Kandang, we didn't have works like that again for centuries afterward. before the birth of Sundanese thinkers, such as Hasan Mustafa, or kiai whose originality began to emerge. There is a tremendous gap in the historiography there. The problem when the colonialists came to the West Java region, which was prosperous, fertile, Priangan-style, mountainous, and so on. It is indeed a historical fact that the Sundanese people, in quotation marks, were as if the first guinea pigs for these systems. We want to make copies in other areas, let's try in Bogor or Cirebon first, or wherever. Once that is successful, it will be successful in other areas. I suspect the exploitative streak starts there, because there are no more roots for us to learn from. People have not been able to read ancient Sundanese manuscripts since the 18th century. When a person, a historian, Netscher, was the first to discover these ancient manuscripts , he asked if they could read them. None of these people can read a single word. So, this tradition is dead. That tradition had been dormant for centuries, so when the Dutch discovered this, it was like discovering a dead civilization. So, we can imagine that perhaps the exploitation during the colonial era, the Sundanese people themselves at that time were not aware that this was exploitative and detrimental to them. I don't know either because the culture has been forgotten for hundreds of years. Maybe it's because of the nature of culture, in quotation marks, where we can find wisdom that has existed for centuries, but it seems like some of it is missing, lost. - Yes, the dark ages. - I don't want to be that gloomy. - That is, darkness in literature. - Maybe we haven't even researched this period yet. Hopefully there is. I doubt the source, because there are those sources. There may be, but I have not found any literature, for example, on the Sundanese wisdom of the 17th-18th centuries that emerged. What canon text appears, nothing. That's what's interesting about the Sundanese side. Starting to appear again, busy again in the 19-20 century. - We can only guess at history from a historical perspective, where at that time there was a third factor. There is a global world starting to enter there. Because in some cultures that I know, for example in Jewish culture at that time, there was also a period of approximately 200-300 years, when it was said that God no longer spoke, there was no canon there. - Maybe it's suitable to apply it. - In the Bible, between the Old Testament and the New Testament, after Malachi it is said that there was a dark age. There is no longer a canon, no more monumental works of literature, which makes one wonder, "What happened back then?" Because it's long. 200 years is a very long time. I live like I'm really old even though I'm not even half a hundred yet. - Well, that's what happened. In Java there are palaces that are quite clear. - Ah, that's right. Because in Sunda there is no such thing as a palace guard. - It was in Banten, but Banten's resistance to the Dutch was so fierce that it was completely destroyed. In Cirebon, the Javanese character is indeed more prominent. Although there are also chronicles, as works that reflect society, we cannot imagine the social situation of the community. - In closing, as a philologist and also a history buff, perhaps even an ethnographer as well, what do you think about the future of Sundanese heritage in terms of its relevance to making Indonesia more equipped with epistemic materials to face the global world? What contribution can you see from Sundanese culture itself, Kang Adit, to Indonesia in a geopolitical context? - This is a question that is almost difficult for me to answer. - Almost difficult. - It's always difficult for me to answer. Because I remember what Mr. Edwin Wieringa said. We as scientists, our weakness is also there. In Indonesia there are often questions like that. What is the contextualization of what we learned in the past for the present? I don't think we have any obligation to answer that, in our context as scientists. Please learn what we do. If there are researchers who see weak warugan, I cannot possibly force this weak warugan to be used, as a method for the current government to start considering weak warugan. No. Who is more expert in urban planning? This is a rich literature. Please use it for anyone who needs it. It's the same as culture anywhere in Europe. Anywhere. You want to make a Thor movie, you want to make something from an ancient culture, go ahead and do it. But we hope that the work we do is very strategic. for us to live now. I always put this in the context of national literacy. I like this term. For example, Mr. Fadli as Minister of Culture often says "reinventing Indonesia" means rediscovering or redefining Indonesia. I see it, is Indonesia lost or did we just forget where we put it? He is there, in manuscripts, in inscriptional sources, temples, artifactual remains, and so on. Even in caves. We just don't want to look at it. Or maybe we have too short a memory. So what we lose is not the things, not the past. Still there. There are researchers, many history books have been produced. But we don't want to extend our memories by reading these works. I mean, why is Indonesian national history a good thing actually, if Indonesia, in the context of national literacy, wants to create a historical narrative. The problem was indeed what Mas Bagus had conveyed earlier. But I think so, yeah. Our job as academics, philologists, is to read as much as possible, as productively as possible, works from the past. anyone who reads it can be a source of information, can be a source of inspiration, which may create other works and other applications. Maybe that's it, Mas Bagus. - Nice note at the end. Bro Adit, thank you. - Thank you. That's Chronicles.