When it comes to stock markets, there is never ever a dull moment. But today when we look at Indian stock markets, we are seeing things that we have never seen before. And most of these things are more confusing than convincing. First of all, India is on a fantastic economic growth trajectory despite the global volatility that we are seeing. But foreign investors stake in Indian markets is at a historic low. in fact at a 12-year low. Secondly, there is a huge amount of money that is coming through the retail investors in terms of SIPs which is unprecedented but their patience, their investor sentiment is being tested because of this current volatility. Thirdly, there is a huge amount of money that is being raised uh by way of IPOs, companies coming and tapping the markets. But most of this is because of exits by private equity or promoters not to power growth. Amid all this chaos and contradictions, the one thing that is really un stands out undoubtedly is the robust regulatory environment, the regulatory ecosystem that we have created in India. Today we are privileged to have with us the chairman of the Securities and Exchange Board of India, Tohin Kapandi. I'm Mahalakshmi and I'm joined by my colleague Rajesh Kumar to do this interview. So thank you so much uh for this opportunity u uh Mr. Pandi. So let me dive into a question that is on every investor's mind today. You know this foreign investors selling uh which has continued for quite some time. We understand that uh you just had went for the ISCO meet. You also met up with a large uh with a few of the large foreign investors. What is your sense? Is there something regulatory one can do to arrest uh or stem this outflow of money from foreign investors? Well, first of all, I would say that if you look at the data uh then last five years net 58 billion uh FBI's foreign investment has come in in both debt and uh you know equity. So therefore I mean the phenomenon that you are talking about of FBI is going uh you know it was basically post you know September October 2024 and uh of course substantial FBI went away and again you know you see here last few days a reversal of this trend. Now in effect you know there could be several reasons for it. One of could be you know the level of market itself and the corrections. I mean you know people said about valuations and the profit booking. The other point was also you know China versus India at the time emerging market like China was available very cheap and some of them had started gravitating there. Another level of uncertainty has come in because I think prior to uh this uh new administration during the election campaign itself there were certain doubts which were created you know how the US stance would going to be going forward. So normally in these kind of uncertain global situations you have a tendency of the foreign investors to flock back to the place where they come from largely US you know they go back and the dollar was also very strong. So therefore there are several reasons why the FBI's behave the way they should. uh however it's also a fact that 5 years there has been net $58 billion of this overall we are you know talking of FBI's of the order of $800 billion both on equity and debt side and there have been plenty of uh movements uh positive movements on the debt side while on the equity side there was also some negative right on the there were also positive movements in the debt side following the bond market inclusion ion and other uh issues. My sense is that uh FBI's view of India is very positive. In fact, um I was uh uh it was more than my expectations in during my visit uh uh you know how deeply the FBI's are valuing India and India's growth story and look at the medium to long-term prospects and also short-term in fact uh in Indian economy. I think they realize uh very uh clearly that you know India is one of the fastest growing economies among the large economies has a very solid fiscal consolidation path laid down and current account deficits are well under control. The balance sheet and the cor bank balance sheet and the corporate balance sheet have been stronger than ever. There have been slight dip in the earnings in the micro level. Right. But they have started stabilizing too. And despite global headwinds which are affecting all countries including US uh where India still has been one of the more attractive markets uh for FBIs because of these fundamentals because of the resilience that India commands. So that's the sense I got. I think they seem to be extremely uh but this engagement process that we have uh uh done with the FBI's as well as others industry and other participants that has I think been very much they have welcomed it in terms of dialogue and discussion and engagement process that we want to do and I think it's a good learning process for us also. So in fact uh there's a number of steps which FB the SEB has taken in uh in case of FBIs. There is an FBI outreach cell which has reached out to about 2,000 FBIs for trying to uh you know engage with them to explain them what has been going on and also redress some of the issues they might have. the common application form of registration. The number of issues relating to that have been streamlined. The registration process on the average is now about less than uh it's about 30 days. It used to be at certain point much higher. Right? All the cases of 200 odd cases which were pending for more than 4 months now there is no pendency uh of such cases you know at all. So all of them have been cleared. So registration process has been has become much faster. The some of the issues that they they may have they have been tackled. So of course there is also scope for further improvements and I think those point has been made. I mean we have really reached out to them said if they can also come in and dialogue and make suggestions where they they would have. So I think the overall the mood has been very positive. This was my sense not only with the five meetings I have where I met plenty of uh FBI investors in Washington DC in New York in Boston but also uh there was a very positive things about India in the meetings that we had under under the financial stability exter engagement group under the IMFO uh track. Sure. So uh what is the nature of these 2,000 uh FBI you're talking about to whom uh Sebi has reached out to? Are these investors who were investing in India have we have they moved out or were they waiting to get registered? What kind of uh entities are we talking about here? See normally you know that is not the way it happens. People actually keep on modulating their investments. I mean in terms of you know you would not have really very many people who were completely exited right of course nothing stops from exiting if they have suppose some fund is there and that fund is wound up in fact one of the important problems that we have sorted of you know what to do if they have post registration uh if they have a problem of liquidation of illquid securities. So that was another problem they would have and we have given the guidance how they can actually do that post registration also. So uh I I I believe you know we have met all kinds of uh FBIs and the general muda one of the meeting we had uh organized was organized by the uh under the opices of CGI New York and uh we had u a number of questions and uh but generally I think uh they appreciated the engagement process with FBI and we continue to remain engaged. Sure. So now uh one big picture question uh during the past few years especially under your predecessor uh a lot of things changed in SEBI the speed of uh change in the regulatory landscape the surveillance the enforcement investigations everything was uh in a sense uh on overdrive mode. Now uh as you assume office uh what is your big vision of what you want to implement over the next 3 years or what are your regulatory priorities? I think my priorities are in fact the SEB's priorities under the parliamentary mandate. So it's not really which at this point in time is in one sense personal to uh me as a chairman. But uh we are a creature of the constitution. We are also creature of parliamentary statute and we have got three mandate. One is that uh investor protection. The second is the development of market and the third is a regulation of market. Now these three three things are important and they have to be balanced because to some extent if you have a good uh development of the markets we require you need to have a regulation and that regulation also need to see that we protect the investors. However, if we have a regulation which is excessive, it may impede the development of the market. So to many to to so what we have really to say the balance how do we strike a balance between an regulation which is just a bit too much or a regulation which is just too little. So that is the word I use the word optimum regulation and if we are able to do that we basically try and balance uh the the two imperatives and that will mean that more engagement more co-creation and a pace of change which will be conducive to development of the market in an orderly manner without really putting too much of a stress on the system because we do understand that every regulation also puts a burden compliance burden on this. So while we might have contextually a need for certain regulations in a certain context, we might also in the same breath also eliminate some of the other regulations and not add up to them. Right? So there could be a situation where you know you can sort of keep on you know sort of contextualizing your regulation but at the same time keep on eliminating which are really no longer necessary and not really add on add on the regulations. So the cost of compliance and the cost of and the and the ease of doing business are imperatives also equally important while no longer ignoring the risks which might be there. So we have to mitigate the risk but in the least cost way. Sure. So uh another uh very heartening thing about stock markets in India at least in this cycle is you know how the domestic investors have really taken to Indian equities. Is it coming directly? It is also coming through the SIP route which is very very healthy. But the flip side of this as many fund managers also have been pointing out uh for quite some time now is that it tends to create uh asset bubbles. It's something Sebi also pointed out uh last year sometime. Uh what is your view? Is there a way in which SEBI can sort of do something to regulate asset prices so we don't sort of bubble up, boil up and then there is a big meltdown? I really don't think that that is a seis role. I mean we will be uh if we if we interfere too much in the market making process it may not be healthier for our capital markets. What we really need to do is to enable a process of capital formation. While India has a very big opportunities at this point uh in terms of the demographic transition we have the quality of entrepreneurships that we have and the banks and other institutions willing to support and lend a helping hand and in capital market the investors which have you know grown from 45 million in 2020 to 130 million today and we have FBIs who are you know sort of quite positive about India. So we have all the wherewithals where uh you know a lot of companies can come in lot of capital formation can do it supply chains you know India sort of many supply chains are shifting to India there's no reason why so many unlisted companies can get into the listed space and enable you know new uh papers and that's important in fact last year we have about 4.5 lakh crores of issuance in all kinds IPOs FPOS's QIPs. So you you know there were about six lakh cr which was uh you know ingress to the mutual fund industry. So therefore this this is important you know that while the investors are coming in the issuers are also coming in and that is what you know you have lots of papers to do uh and then lots of investors also to support that paper. Sure. And of course everything depends upon you know you have to also keep a healthy balance sheet and the corporate earnings must continue to grow the opportunities that uh 6% plus uh growth rate which India is right now clocking and infrastructure funding which continues to be in fairly high level at the government provide the wherewithal for this kind of a nice capital formation to handle uh to take place. So therefore I think both the sides we have got the merits. Sure. And so therefore the possibility of asset bubbles happening then will be you know uh will get diminished right because if you have more more papers which are there now reads and invits have also come in where several you know new something we have also brought in SM reads. I think we have to enable more and more products. Now specialized investment funds have been brought in but eventually you know it has to get into the real market economy that's important right and in order to have a real market economy we do have the uh you know all the enablers so I would say that this is a one of the best times then we can actually have a very growing capital market in India even the specialized investment vehicles all of It goes into the equity market pool. Uh but of course there is REITs in which which are completely different products. The underlying assets are very different in the next 3 years. Uh which pieces do you think can grow substantially? Your predecessor again was very bullish on REITs. Uh any particular thrust area that you would see over the next 3 years? Is it money mun bonds? Is it uh REITs? Is it invit? Is there any other thrust on commodities? I think we are in a state where we need all of the above because we can't really be saying that this will be the only class you know you forgot to mention debt markets right so the debt markets also this is continuing now following the inclusion of India in the bond index that you have you know you will have the debt flows which will also come in in that significant debt flows also I think as a part of uh asset allocation exercise which the households as well as the institutions do a lot of money will also get into the liquid funds and the and the debt funds as well as the equity and in the equity I mean then you have hybrid securities and then we have we have alternate investment funds where slightly riskier investments could actually take place. We have recently also allowed you know the AIFS can uh go for even some of the listed uh uh securities wherever we have we were making them only go more than 51% for unlisted ones we have relaxed the provision so that even the bond market is develops and the um the the bonds which are listed uh AAA and below double A and below may also be subscribed uh by the AIFS. So I would say that it's the diversification of the market and all the markets actually combining because they are suiting different needs and different class of investors right. So we should also not have one sizefits-all approach to regulation. Even the investor protection uh our thing we have to apply differently for different class of investors. While we may have a separate thing for retail and small investors in some of the Aif classes, we may have uh where the capacity to take risk is much more where they are much more uh aware about the you know as I said about the capital markets there I think we can have a much less uh you know like regulation right uh from the point of view of investor protection right so it is that variety that we have to add and I think the SEBI has been uh you know has been recognizing this issue and they have brought in different kinds of regulations and we will continue to reform these regulations also in order to bring about different uh products different instruments and different types of regulations. Okay, another question on uh you know the mutual fund industry. Um, of course this mutual fund sahiha campaign has worked wonders for the industry but there is also a feeling that it might have been oversold in the sense that there are a whole bunch of uh breed of investors who are investing in equities without knowing the risk uh of equities uh through the mutual fund route. Um do you think um it's time for a change of t uh in a sense that you know how do we how do we address this issue that uh mutual funds with underlying equities may not be for all investors but mutual fund itself will provide all kinds of varieties. So let's not say that they will mutual funds can only provide you equities. They can provide debt securities. They can have hybrids. Even for example this they do and they do. It's just that the thrust seems to have been on equities all this while. No but the equity capital is also an important capital because you know in a in a situation where you have to build large companies where you have you need equity. So therefore some people should be able to raise equity from the market. So there's nothing wrong in equity. I would say that it it should be consistent with the risk that have if and so if you are uh you know it's basically the attitudinal change which has come and to some extent which should also come further in terms of long-term investing. Right? If you're doing a long-term investing, what matters is the macroeconomic fundamentals. What matters will then be, you know, the the state of the real markets. So it's not a merely, you know, some a little cyclical thing that you will be worried about. You can ride through the cycles when you are say invested in 5 years. If you stay invested for 10 years, you actually ride through the cycles. So you don't get perturbed and you don't get panicky on uh some downturn and in fact some downturns in the market are essential part of actually market making because sometimes you you should know I mean it makes you aware of number one risk that is a risky market. Secondly it also allows people to average out some cases it will also allow you to get in at different price points. So it would be we should really say that if we understand the market what matters is what is the India's next two decades how is the India you know going to grow what are the you know points what are the savings and investment ratios that we have what is level of productivity what is the infrastructure what's the infrastructure story in India how much has been done how much has efforts been made what is the policy stance what is the you know the demography of India India what is a talent pool now if you really look at the the capability centers the global capability centers almost more than 50 50% of the world's global capability centers are today in India that's right and one of the very important uh takeaways uh I had when during my US visit was every you know FBI particularly banks big banks were even though they were not really participating in banking operations as such here they had a they were heavily invested in from in in Indian t talent pool here and you know somebody having a 20,000 manpower in India 40,000 manpower in India and running global operations bringing in even very high uh positions into India in terms of managing uh from the globe. So now that itself also creates a whole lot of other opportunities when you have such comfort level whether you are running your global operations from Chennai or Pune or you know Mumbai or Bangaluru, Hyderabad and even you know increasingly in the tier 2 cities. So that itself creates a lot of goodwill right in terms of you know how you are looking at as a country's long-term future because you have you know in a way placed so much of trust that you are running your operations from a country. So these are the enablers of the long-term growth of uh capital market the real economy. Sure. So investor uh protection is the key mandate of sei and for that uh we need investor education. So what is your plan? Like last year the spent was very minimal even less than 5% of the SE's own invested protection and education fund. So how you are going to make people aware the risk of the market the opportunities of the market. So uh one is that you know when you're talking of SEBI only SEBI's thing uh then I think it may look small but if you see the overall um spend of the SEBI ecosystem because the uh you know this investment awareness has been done by several market MIS as well as market intermediaries. So it's a much more widespread because of the reach that they have because the more touch points you have the more you know investor awareness you can do you can do campaigns but you are also doing a lot of intensive you know investor service centers across the length and breadth I but I recognize that sebi also has need to step up it will not be enough for sebi only to ask its intermediaries or mis only to do that and we may have to step up our own efforts directly and I think we will uh we will uh uh you know there uh give our concentration concentrated effort but what will be more material for us is that whole sebi ecosystem in particular but in general even you know both all the regulators together can do a much more important campaign on investor awareness in terms of what you know how you can diversify what are the dos and don'ts what not to do and also you know uh how the speculative activities not the you know motive for uh long-term investing so these uh things I think we'll we'll have to craft in a more uh uh I would say more creative manner in a also more accelerated approach to our own effort or uh I think we need also to increase our presence. I think to some extent uh uh physical u you know our footprints uh have uh you know gone down in the last few years. We have to probably ramp up. We have to have review because uh for whatever we might say about the electronic campaign and so on but there is also a lot of merit in being there on the ground and India is a vast diverse country and lots and lots of investors are now coming from smaller centers tier 2 cities tier three cities even in villages in different pin codes now I think for a just for a maybe two or less than I mean twodigit code barring that all of the pin codes you know people investors are now investing in remote corners. So of course we have also uh expanded a big reach digitally through mobiles and others but still you know the investor education sometimes may need all these uh you know through different touch point through different investor awareness program through train people in physical formats. uh we need to for example uh get into the uh schools and colleges national NISM has got a very uh important program to reaching out to the college students and working it out because they become you know first-time investors and they start learning. So we have to even start early with the schools. uh so therefore that kind of thing which will require a much more concentrated efforts and we will uh we will get into that so you will expand the branch network uh seb's branch network because that is really gone down as you point out I think so I think so in what way we will uh do that it's there but our uh footprints on the ground need to be expanded that's my uh because I've gone around and seen and talked to the people talked to regional offices uh we need uh language specific uh uh you know people who are going and talking in their own languages is not enough to so how we do it is that we will we'll have to find out because we also need you know uh language knowing people that you know if you are operating in Orisa right so ura knowing people to interact because that's how you communicate much better so we have to find out but we have to also have the other capabilities today of uh digital translating and other things also to make a difference but many a time we have seen interpersonal efforts are required interpersonal things are there specific even if the digital programs are there they have to be uh in the languages which the people do understand which will actually do a far better job of investor awareness so we have to intelligently recraft our strategy uh sirme fundraising is a key issue but in recent uh time we have seen that lots of bad companies entered in the market they raised the fund and misutralized it and it looked like they had a plan to like fool the investors. So how you are going to balance the fundraising need ofmesmemes and also protecting the retail investors any rethink on theme uh IPO regulations? See the one of the objectives of theme IPOs was to enable the because there's so manymemes that we have in order to uh you know ease the access ofmemes to the capital market that was objective and therefore we went for a relatively a lighter touch regulation also went to you know they could only go through the exchanges and uh you know not necessary to approach SEBI for clearances of IPOs and in between we had some uh you you know we saw the some of the issues arising out of it. So there were regulation there were a change in regulation in terms of who can access it. We tightened a little bit for purpose for which it can be deployed uh you know how much you can uh use it for general corporate purpose. I think there the role of merchant bankers is also important because to some extent we find that you know the cost of raising fund is just a bit high much higher like if you're raising this what is a proportion of your fund is you know as a as a cost of expenses normally you will see if you raise larger fund your cost will go down that's a normal phenomenon any bulk uh when whenever you do but we also need to see you know you know how much also they can afford in terms of uh the uh you know the cost of uh raising uh capital uh that apart I think we need we have to be constantly watchful on this uh if you find that because there certain as I said that certain measures were taken to tighten the situation so we will be watchful as to how that pans out our point is that disclosures are important people should look at disclosures. When you do investments, then investments you should give because so much of information is being made available to you. Then you should be watchful. And thirdly, you could always the investors must also see you know how you are putting the money and diversifying and not really trying to put the money in in just a few uh only on the expectation that you know the returns are uh temporarily they look very attracted to you in terms of capital gains. But they may actually not be true because uh u you know if you do not watch the performance over a period of time in terms of real activity what's happening there. So slowly you have to build up the uh you know your trust on those companies and also watch the companies over a period in order for them to ramp up investment. So, so I think a lot of people have been misled by the wrongful advice uh also because there are people who are perpetrating these kind of advice of which we are going against them of influencers who are not uh qualified to give such kind of advice on specific stocks and also about you know assuring some returns and um uh I We have also have some egregious uh cases in that where we found that there was a tendency to pump and dump. uh but uh these are the cases that we will come very hard if we find uh any such thing but the regulatory uh purview will continue to be with uh with the exchanges not with for as I said that we will be watchful if we find that you know this will requires a relook we will revisit it in consultation with industry so another question on uh retail IPO the quot of 35% was fixed long back because lots of retail investors have come to the market and the size has quietly grown up. Any thought on reviewing it? Well, I think this is uh uh in terms of the review that we are doing of various regulations in consultation with industry where public consultations will also be done. I think we will we are open to uh looking at it whether whether it is uh right thing to do whether we continue it like the way it is or will require a modification so it's a part of relooking that we as I said that we will undertake uh but we have not formed uh one opinion any opinion specific opinion about this matter yet this will be put up for public consultation yes it will be reviewed and cons you know we have uh PMAC we have SMAC and we have IPAC different committees are there and they would also look at this and then we have consultation papers so it will we will have to churn it and we'll bring it and with look at the data uh you know whether this is I mean exactly is it the right way forward or is it the good enough so we also sometimes don't need to uh destabilize uh the any situation for the heck of it. So if we have a problem, if we have an issues then we can look at it. If we are comfortable with something which is already stable, the market is stable, then we can continue with it. There there is a demand that some uh some section is asking that the retail kota in larger issue should be reduced. That is what I'm saying. In that context only I replied to you. So we have no uh we have we are relooking at the matter in terms of simplification in terms of making changes contextual changes. So if we find that you know there is a rationale if we find that there is a larger support for it we can go for that. So it's difficult for me to comment and pre-judge an issue before it is actually done. Fair enough. So at some point in time, Sevi was contemplating um a fractional ownership of shares and that required changes in the company's act to be able to affect that. Uh is that something of immediate priority? When when is it likely to happen? No, at this moment uh this matter is not on the table. Okay. Um what about T plus 0? Uh you know there was a time when this was introduced as an option. Of course it continues to be an option but it's you know as an option uh people don't really take to it unless you say this is the only way and there's no other way people won't take to it and it has not really taken off. Is that something you will that has been sort of put aside or is there going to be renewed thrust on uh T plus0 because when it was talked about the next step looked like instantaneous settlement that was also talked about. So what's your what's your view? Well, it was intended to be optional, right? So, we, you know, continue with that intention. Okay. Um, so it may not take off in a big way which is okay. I mean, you're happy with status quo. I mean, we have to see when the time, right time is there to do it. I think we have taken a very big step forward on being the first uh jurisdiction to bring P+1. US has followed suit. Many other jurisdictions are still wondering how you have been able to many people were asking me questions in ISCO meeting how did you do T+1 we are struggling right so therefore I mean it's like you know technologies will keep developing systems will keep developing we must we have to just keep in mind the whole need of the whole system in our thing you know there are domestic investors There are FBIs, there are custodians, there is also people there. We have different time zones also. The certain decisions are taken elsewhere and then funds have to be moved. So we need to really keep in mind everything because the entire ecosystem should be good enough. It's not enough for me to put something and then not be talking about how the custodians will do it, how the others will do it. you know how the banks will do it. So we need to really understand all those things and say that before we make it any mandatory we must be clear that you know the ecosystem is getting ready for that and we are not the only one who are there are others and everyone has IT systems everyone has other things. So I I would say that you know technologically we have been able to sort of demonstrate that you know how it would be possible to do it. So that is a learning there are several learnings while you are doing even in an optional side but in order to push to any further so I don't think that that is a matter of priority for us at the moment. Fair enough. So there is one criticism uh against uh Sebi which is that you know cases u remain open in a sense for a very long time many many years so they get revisited after a hiatus of many years. Uh would you reook at this in terms of you know what is the timeline uh for any case to sort of stop and not go back to? I think that that is a a bit of a dated information because a huge amount of improvement has taken place. I just had a data where I found that you know there is very little there is uh in so far as cases is there there's earlier there used to be a lot of cases 5 years old cases al there's very little 2 to 5 years you know mostly it is falling within 2 years now bracket and investigation it is all getting completed in uh less than two years so there has been a lot of improvement in terms of case delivery we intend to further uh sort of uh add resources in our system in terms of trained manpower in order to handle those cases. So we will add the resources rather than you know uh letting it uh slip further. We will see that and it will also mean that we'll continue to investigate on a much larger scale. We will also continue to do surveillance and supervision on a more intensive scale. Which means that if the cases are more cases are generated but we will also sort them out in a much uh quicker manner which also means that we will add resources and we will also add capacity to these resources to do it you know faster better. Will there be any hard stop on cases? No, there will be no there will be no hard stop on cases. As I said that we just add capacity and uh uh you know resources in order to do things faster. It's like saying you know if you want to do three programs a day you have to add uh you know so many more people so many more people. Okay. um any additional surveillance tools uh that you are looking for um essentially to for example uh wire uh wiretapping uh it's something that uh previous SE chairmans have talked about I mean this requ this is something that could give you an edge uh when it comes to investigation is there anything like that that you would push for I think you know whatever means we have we like to really optim ally use them and add resources to do it. So, uh it's I'm not the one where saying that we will just keep on looking for more powers. We can get the authority and do it. I mean the question is you know we need not have all the authority or all the things is for of course the parliament to decide the government to decide but whatever powers we have that can be effectively used I mean that should be our first priority you think it is not right now which one you think it is not being optimally used right now the powers that say has there is scope for a lot more optimally be used as you said that the number one that how you may have lots of information. So if you improve your tools so you can have better alerts then if you have alerts you can have better resources to come on on so you can have a processing tool around it and therefore you can process this faster and better. So if you really quality of our orders you may have noticed that they are able to do a far better analysis of you know movements uh maybe you know how the funds have moved how the people have defrauded so it's that effectiveness I'm talking about I think there is a still scope for you know further development of those tools sure which we'll constantly do. Sure. Of course you know you know you get more powers that makes it easier. Uh that is another way of doing it you know. So powers are uh but then whatever powers we have we can always make use them better in terms of you know adding resources and better tooling and so a lot of AI is used now in sebi and a lot of a you know uh we've developed our own tools to do that so that capacity to develop the tools both IT and human is important sure and we'll continue to focus on that uh Coming back to market manipulation and the surveillance thing. So there was a proposal of unexplained suspicious trading activities which was proposed to deal with the cases where sei uh does not directly have a evidence against someone but this uh proposal could have if cleared could have empowered sei to take action in that cases. So is that proposal still on the table? it is not in the table because there were certain concerns about it in the board. So it was like putting an owners on the other and uh you know whenever you shift the owners it's a very big thing in a law and normally it is for anybody who is prosecuting to prove that you have done such and such thing. you know when you shift the owners it becomes an ownorous law. So I mean therefore I mean we have to also see the balance the rights of privacy the rights of personal rights you know your rights rights of liberty with with the rights of investigating agencies. So let us not you know we have to be very clear that we have to we are living in a democratic place where we we we should know exactly the powers have to be not to be abused sometime so that this uh power of abuse will also be kept in mind while people agreeing whether it should be supported or not supported. Sure. So at the moment I don't think that we should pursue. there was a thing and it was discussed but it was not accepted in the board. So we'll rest it there at that and then we'll see if there is a time when with proper modifications or others but right now we are not pursuing it. Okay. So there was uh this announcement in budget 2021 of unifor unified securities code. So what is this status now? I believe SEBI has shared its uh I mean views on the regulation proposed regulation. So what is the status now sir? When can we expect? I think that is the question you have to ask to department of economic affairs. This is with the government uh you know and the DEA will be the best uh uh you know so there were different hands. Yeah. So there were differences with respect to how many board members government should appoint and how the funding I'm not I'm not aware of these differences or similarities and uh so one very often asked and everybody wants to know when NCIP will get clearance and what are the hurdles that uh SEB feels are there and they need to be solved before we will allow them. I think I have earlier publicly spoken about it. So at the cost of repetition I will again say there were their NSE and SEP are under discussion on some of the key points which are relating to that in case of governance technology litigation and clearing corporation and hopefully they will be sorted out in in a clearly uh you know with a clear road map and then I think this issue can go forward. So about uh de merger of clearing corporations. There is a view that demmerging before making them financially viable. Is it a good idea? I'm not really getting into that here because we are not any pre-judging the issue. There have been a paper which has been put out you know by sebi itself in November 24 about you know what is the possible road road map it could be you know and then secondly the nse has also given a viewpoint so we have to examine it and work it out and then we can I can't really in the media say that this is my opinion or that opinion this is an very serious issue which we have to apply your mind from the point of view of system stability going forward. What should be the case? What risks might emerge because NSC and NSE on BSC both they are of course one of them is listed already but they are very uh important MIS and uh and to that they have a public utility angle. They are systemically important institutions. So while they are commercial uh you know they are you know because basically they are commercial entity that is our unique model. So they are not uh not not for-profit entity but commercial entities but there is also a public uh utility angle in terms of providing uh you know the infrastructure to uh you know it's a marketplace and so therefore uh the regulator has to see uh for example we have public interest uh directors there PIDs and they do not require shareholders approval it's precisely because you the public interest directors look out to the public. So it cannot be always shareholders interest in terms of you know market making or you know commercials or profits. So these are the angle they come into this they are as compared to other companies normal companies that is why this IPO you know the issue is taking more time but I hope that we will be able to resolve it and move forward. So ease of doing business is a key agenda of the government and also of CB. So uh have you given any timeline to the with departments within the CB like in which timeline they have to review the regulation then come out with what needs to be eased. I have said that you know in the very first question I answered that you know this optimum regulation that we are looking for which also means that and keeping in view the cost of compliance cost of doing business. So anything what we do we would like to see you know that whether this regulation is you know can be done better because there would definitely be any regulation anything will definitely add compliance. The question is what are the least cost option for us? what are the alternatives and do we add can we do away with certain micro regulations because in that case we will concentrate on uh regulations which are truly very which mitigate the risks in a very focused manner. So it is a question of you know how you reconcile these objectives both the objectives and balance it and every department of sebi in their own respective regulatory area will engage with the in fact they have started engaging already with their uh associations respective uh stakeholders and preparing you know what might have and then you know there would be consultation papers And there will be a public comments will also be sought. So, so that more transparently we are able to say is what are the areas what are the things we can there are some regulations we can rewrite for example 24B in mutual funds we can actually we are reviewing you know how we can make it better so similarly you know there are others so that's an exercise we make it better in what sense and I don't make it better in the sense as I said 24B equally equally effective perhaps more with less cost of compliance. It's like your own spring cleaning. If you do many a time if you have to organize your place, you will find that something which you will dispose something you will rearrange and your room will look better, cleaner, broader, wider. So this is exactly what we need to do also. Sure. Of course it is is a continuous process but sometimes if we are giving it a focus now we giving it a focus means I think everyone is trying to sort of do it right right so with respect to mutual funds uh the TE regulations I mean T sei was reviewing it what is the status on on that about T the total expense ratio for mutual funds total expense ratio we have upper cap there but normally we have got upper cap of TER in several other places also in in and the debt security is also there. It is there in in case of brokers uh uh you know margins but not necessarily that you know that upper ratio is kept you know sometime it is much lower than that like brokerage fees some of the things may be giving zero brokerage also fees although we we may have said it can't be more than 2.5%. Right in debt we would have you know say 2%. It may be you know it may be less than even 1%. So that is a cap upper cap. No I'm asking this was to be reviewed this almost went to the board but didn't get announced and then you know uh the previous chairman had said that they had asked Sebi had asked for additional data to review it. Uh what is the status of that? Is it still under review or are we happy happy with status quo? No, till the time it is reviewed, it is set as go. Okay. Sorry to disappoint you, but that's the way I would put it. I mean, if it's review means a change is coming. Status quo means no change. That is how we interpret it. I think I have put it as a general review for everything that we do. So the question is the timing wise you know it is not a specific things if you are contextualizing thing the pe this thing keep emerging but right now we are together everyone together like every as an institution we are trying let's do a major simplification okay of our regulations so that exercise we are trying to initiate we have initiated in fact and going forward we will identify so bottle No, it will actually throw up. Here are the pain points. Here it is not necessary. Here you can do better. Here you can write things better. And then you have to bite in different pieces because everything will then otherwise so you have to put it in the chewable thing and then you know put it in the form of regulatory changes. But they should add up to an objective. An objective is optimum regulation. Sure. Somewhere the optimum might say that look this is one is too loose. It should be made tighter but rest of the stuff can go. Fair enough sir. So but it is very difficult for me to give you all the concrete example before the exercise is actually gone way ahead. Once it goes ahead we will have an idea which regulations you know these are the things that we can actually do. Right now I am only saying as a principle we are going for optimum regulatory principle and my belief is and whatever inputs I have got from the people that there are definitely chances for many many opportunities for reform. Just a couple of questions sir. One is what is your big message to uh investors uh and secondly where are you investing? What is your preferred choice of investment today? Investment product. No, we we we are not supposed to invest in markets. So, and secondly, investors means wise investing, long-term investing, but capital market is important and you should do the asset allocation in a in a in an advised manner suited to your needs. Your needs are your needs. you can assess them better and take a proper advice. Sure. Thank you so much, sir. [Music]