[Music] Al Jazzer podcasts. Today, Trump and Putin's face-to-face summit in Alaska. Presidents Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin are set to meet in Alaska for talks on the war in Ukraine. But concern is increasing in Kev and among its European allies over fears of being sidelined. What's the point if President Zalinski of Ukraine is not invited to the table? I'm Malika Bilal and this is the take. [Music] My guest today has the view from Moscow. I spoke to him on Thursday, a day ahead of the summit. I'm Sama Bunjave. I'm a senior correspondent for Alazer English and I usually cover conflict zones, but because we're in Russia, which has 11 time zones, so I'm talking to you from Moscow. 11 time zones. Well, I really appreciate you taking a little bit of your time to talk to us. Osama, welcome to the take. This meeting between Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump is a one-on-one face-to-face summit in the US to discuss the end of Russia's war in Ukraine. Why is this meeting so important and why now? Well, there are a number of reasons why this is happening now. It is happening when you see the Russians expanding their control on eastern Ukraine. They're consolidating their positions in multiple locations and they're taking more areas uh more importantly in Dombas in the last 24 hours where they have taken positions 10 km further uh towards a very crucial highway which links all of the DMBAS uh strongholds that the Ukrainians still control. This is happening where the Ukrainians have been admitting that they're facing a number of shortfalls including personnel. That's why they see the the flank faltering a bit. It's happening when US president is on a spree of solving world crisis. It is happening when the world is entering three and a half years and further sanctions against Russia. It is happening when Vladimir Putin wants to show the world that he can split the international community and tell the United States president to just meet him without the Europeans or the Ukrainians involved. So there's a multitude of reasons that this is happening now. If there is no peace between Russia and Ukraine, wider peace in the Western Hemisphere is going to be very difficult. And you have to remember that this war is inching closer to Zaparisia, which is Europe's largest nuclear power plant. and there's been fighting close to it in the last 3 and 1/2 years and it is on the verge of disaster if in case all of these drones that we see flying from both sides any of them is directed towards it. So, so far we've averted disaster but that doesn't mean that it either diminishes or moves us away from the risks that this war carries. Well, I know many people outside of Russia perhaps and Alaska might be wondering why Alaska, but there is a historic and a symbolic significance to this location and to having these talks there. What is it and what do Russians feel about it? Well, until the late 1800s, Alaska used to be a part of Russia, which was sold for some just above $7 million in today's money. Uh so this is quite symbolic uh not just for the Russians but Americans as well. From the Russians perspective, Alaska's status and this happening, this taking place in Anchorage at a military base is quite symbolic. And it also goes to show from the Russian perspective that these borders that have been marked by international treaties and boundaries are actually movable if uh there are countries that agree to it. And that is where this cre question lies that because Vladimir Putin has been very firm in his position of what he wants as the outcome of this war and as an outcome to any peace deal, it has to talk about the territories that Russia has taken from Ukraine. Ukraine says it is not ready to give up an inch of its territory. So Russia is insisting on the position that it has had in the past where everything goes to its advantage. whether it's the borders, it's the territory it's taken or the Ukrainian ambitions that it will continue to keep its hold on everything that it's taken and annexed. Okay, we're going to get a little bit more into those demands and what each side wants out of this summit. But there is one person who will not be in the room when it happens, and that's Ukrainian President Vladimir Zalinski, who wasn't invited to the summit. The White House called it a listening exercise and said they'll include Zalinski later. And then in what looks like a consolation prize, Trump held a virtual meeting with Zalinsky and other European leaders on Wednesday. And in a press conference afterwards, Zalinski laid out his conditions. Russia cannot have a veto right over Ukraine's European and NATO perspectives and peace talks should be combined with appropriate pressure on Russia. Sanctions must be in place and they must be strengthened if Russia does not agree to a ceasefire in Alaska. Him not being there though, what's the strategy here? Well, if you look at it from the Russian perspective, this is a win. they've been able to uh split the support for the Ukrainian side into the Europeans versus the Americans. It is important to note who is actually going to be there, but it is also noteworthy that the Ukrainian president is not going to be there. And it's not just President Zilinski, his European counterparts and European allies are not going to be represented in that meeting as well. You have to remember that in the last three and a half years, these two sides have been crucial in this war uh that after the Russian invasion, Ukraine has been fighting. It is American weapons, it is European intelligence, it is manpower, it is everything that has been able to help the Ukrainians fight against a much larger, much bigger enemy and maintain control of whatever front lines they have left. This is a very extraordinary summit because summits of this nature between presidents who haven't met for years and years between two cold war arched rivals will take months if not years to plan and this is happening on a week's notice. So visas and logistics and everything else had to be on supercharge mode. You just now have start seeing the US Treasury uh lifting some of those sanctions albeit temporarily uh making it clear that it is not going to be lifting any sanctions on any assets or any funds but only those parts which are needed to facilitate this meeting are being lifted until August the 20th. Whatever the outcome of this may be, this is going to be beneficial not just for Russia but for Russian partners as well. M you mentioned everything that Zalinsky has been doing. What has he been doing? There was this important summit in Berlin where he traveled to and had a teleconference uh with European leaders as well as uh the the US president and now on Thursday he's actually in the UK meeting the UK prime minister. He came out with a statement that he's been able to secure a billion and a half dollars with which he'd be able to buy American weapons. So this diplomacy is important because not just the Europeanist Europeans are feeling left out. It's the Ukrainians as well. There's a lot of pessimism that we've been hearing from the Ukrainian side about what's the outcome of this meeting? What will it mean? Will President Trump throw them under the bus? Is there going to be uh no u compromise on when it comes to what the Ukrainians want? So there's a lot of those questions and President Trump in the leadup to this has been assuring uh the Ukrainians. he came out and he said this is going to be a great meeting saying that this is going to be a listening exercise. He just gave an interview uh to a local US network saying that this is going to result in in something concrete. So there's been this flip-flop that you're seeing from the American side while the Russian position has remained that of strategic silence and consistence in what they want as an outcome. Something concrete. Okay. You are in Moscow. Is there a feeling that that is what this could lead to? Something concrete? I've been speaking to people who have fought on the battlefield. I've been speaking to analysts, academics, and the feeling is that there is there is a hope that there's this moves the needle in one way or the other because there's been a stagnation of this conflict and nothing has changed. Uh but there wasn't a lot of hope until when this uh delegation was announced. So now you have the Russian foreign minister, the Russian defense minister, the Russian finance minister, special adviser to Vladimir Putin and in presidential aid all part of this high power delegation. I spoke to somebody and I asked them you know what does this mean and does this give you hope and they told me that if you understand Russian politics if on the fly President Vladimir Putin will have to take decisions by law he's going to have to consult his closest members of parliament which is his cabinet and he's taking everyone along with him. It also gives hope to people here because it's not just going to be about Ukraine but also about a bilateral relationship including uh some sort of energy contracts between the United States and Russia on the Arctic front. Uh so it's it's quite ambiguous but it appears to show with that level of seriousness that is being shown by the Russians that they really want something concrete to come out. More with Osama bin Javeed after the break. Osama, what is at stake for all the sides here? Because President Trump said on Monday that both Ukraine and Russia would have to seed territory to each other to end the war. Trump told a White House press conference, "There will be some land swapping going on. There'll be some land swapping going on. I know that through Russia and through conversations with everybody to the good, for the good of Ukraine. Good stuff, not bad stuff. also some bad stuff for both. And then on Wednesday, he said there'd be consequences if Putin does not agree to stop the war after this summit. So what do you see as what's really at stake here? Well, let's rewind to last week. Last week, President Trump sent his special envoy to the Middle East, Steve Bitco. uh somebody who's not a uh a career diplomat, somebody who's known for his business-like skills of negotiation to Russia came with the message where uh ideas were exchanged and it was decided that these two sides are going to meet. Uh there was initial talk of trying to bring in the Ukrainian president which hasn't happened because the Russian president has been very clear saying that he does not want a meeting with Zilinski unless the groundwork has been done. So what does that groundwork look like from the Russian perspective? That groundwork is that the Ukrainians will have to give up their ambitions to join NATO. That Ukraine will have to guarantee that it was not used as a staging point for attacks against Russia by the entire Western Hemisphere. That meaning the European Union and the Americans. Uh and also Russia will get to keep all of the territory that it has taken and annexed including Crimea uh and Don and other regions. Now when the US president talks about territory which will have to be exchanged, it will probably mean areas like Khakiv and Sunumi, those regions where there's been fighting but are not essentially predominantly Russian speakers as Russia sees it. The seeding territory um you have covered many conflicts all around the world over the years. What do you make of that demand? because it looks like it's one of Russia's red lines. Well, it does appear that way that Vladimir Putin is going to see it as a red line and if it would be a win for the US president if he can persuade him to change his mind. But remember that all of these conflicts that we've seen in the past have some compromise. So could this become another Cypress-like situation? Could this become another Kashmir where all of those front lines are frozen for an indefinite period of time and it becomes sort of a line of contact or a line of control and all sides seize fire and stop trying to take more territory or gain territory back? U would it mean another compromise when it comes to the people of that region? Remember people in Don since its annexation and this goes back to 2014 a lot of them have now Russian passports. They uh carry Russian citizenship. So they already feel as they are part of Russia because they are Russian speakers and and historically from the Ukrainian side there's been a push against the Russian language and against people who speak the Russian language. So it will be interesting to see where those compromises actually are made because a lot of them will have to be made by both sides. Not just in terms of territory but also in terms of people and and in terms of how they are able to live as neighbors because remember these both countries have to live side by side with each other. Whether they're living as partners or as adversaries is going to be determined by these two sides, not just the United States. Right. Well, Donald Trump promised during his election campaign to end the war on day one. That didn't happen. He's also made no secret that he sees himself as worthy of the Nobel Prize. But European leaders have urged him not to strike a unilateral deal. What is at risk for Ukraine if he does, especially in pursuit of those other goals of ending this war and it perhaps leading to a Nobel? Well, it is very difficult to say whether the US president is going to be able to win the Nobel Peace Prize, but he's got people campaigning for it, including the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. But in terms of the real politic of this, you actually have to see uh the the Donald Trump who actually just lambasted uh the Ukrainian president in the White House in that first meeting. It was quite a sight to behold which he ended with saying that that was great television, wasn't it? Um and then you have the Donald Trump who is being close to the Russian president. Go back to Donald Trump presidency number one where there was a lot of allegations about Russian interference in US elections to Donald Trump saying he is going to end the conflict on day one apparently more than 50 times during his campaign not being able to achieve that and now is his opportunity uh to tell his people uh that he can actually persuade Vladimir Putin to do something that he hasn't been able to do but also what will it mean uh for the security of the entire region there's the ramifications of energy energ for European consumers uh the ramifications for costs of living that have been going up on both sides everything has to be taken into consideration and that's why if you look at the wider picture of what is at stake here it will be wise as many people have said for these both all of these sides to make a compromise Osama you touched on um that contentious shall we say meeting between Zillinsky and Trump at the White House. That was back in February. And this summit that we're seeing this week is a far cry from that meeting. That was a televised Oval Office visit that saw Trump and Zalinsky verbally sparring with Trump saying Zalinsky was unthankful for US support. And Zalinski later saying the meeting was regrettable. You're right now not in a very good position. You've allowed yourself to be in a very bad position. and he happens to be right about from the very beginning of the war. You're not in a good position. You don't have the cards right now. Is there a concern that this summit will further distance Trump from Zalinski and bring him closer to Putin? Well, you see, the US president is anything but consistent. You've seen him spar against Zilinski and you've seen him embrace him in various other meetings as well. But again, you are talking about Donald Trump here who can go from a completely different point of view to another point of view in a span of a few hours. This is a Donald Trump who has uh called Vladimir Putin uh absolutely crazy and said that you know he doesn't understand why is he killing people. Uh this is the Donald Trump who's thanked Putin on multiple other occasions. So it will all boil down to that room between these two men and their interpreters because remember as Trump reminded Zilinski without the US support it will be very difficult for them to hold on to the positions that they are holding on to. It's US intelligence support. It's US satellite support. It's US weaponry. And that is what is at stake. If Trump decides that he pulls out of that war as a partner with Ukraine, that would mean disaster for Ukraine. But if Trump decides that he's going to live by whatever he's promised the Europeans and the Ukrainians, this could mean hope to try and bring both of these sides together because he does have sway over Vladimir Putin as well. Well, Osama, you were speaking to us from the Moscow bureau. So, on your walks around, give me a sense of the temperature. What are you feeling the mood on the ground is when it comes to not only these talks, this summit, but also this war and whether or not Russians actually see an end to the war coming. Well, I've been to Moscow multiple times and you would not be mistaken if you felt that there is no war in Moscow because even after those drone strikes that we saw hit the Kremlin, uh those uh sirens that we heard in in Moscow, uh those buildings that were destroyed by Ukrainian drones, uh the internet blockade uh that you feel on every any given day, people are going about their lives. I was surprised at the number of international tourists and this year that number has jumped from 200,000 in 2022 to about 3 million people who have visited Russia. So people here going about their everyday lives uh don't really think about the war and there are a lot of people who will tell you that they're pessimistic about any outcome. People who say enough is enough and there should be peace. Remember that it is very difficult for you to air your opinion here in the streets because if you say you're against the war, it could land you in jail. Yeah. What about the people who are fighting or people who have family members who are on the front lines? What is it feeling like for them? Well, we've been speaking to veterans of the war, people who have come back, people who have lost limbs, people who are going through therapy. Uh we also interviewed somebody who belonged to the Homer Vager group. Uh remember this is a group which once marched towards Moscow and actually downed a helicopter from the Russian military. So meeting a former member of Wagner, I asked him in front of his big Wagner flag, what does he feel should be the outcome of this and does he miss the front lines and does he want to go back? So this 53year-old man told me that he fought for his country. He did what he thought was right at that time. He fought for two years, but he does not miss the trenches and he hopes that there will be peace. And he told me that is the sentiment amongst many of his comrades who've come back from the front lines. So it appears that yes the Russians can say and the media can portray that they're winning the war but with the people who are actually in the trenches who are fighting uh for their country whose number uh has grown since the war actually started actually do want peace and not just them but their families as well. And that's the take. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to give it a like so more people can find this show. And I'd love to hear your thoughts in the comments below. Let me know what stood out to you or if there's anything you'd like us to dive deeper into next time. Our team is always checking in, so let's keep the conversation going. I'll see you tomorrow. [Music]