the way I see Pakistan is they are our blood they are our people the only thing that separates us is religion China is the most powerful Nation it's about roughly four times more powerful than India from the Western perspective India serves as a counterbalance to China President Kennedy in the early 1960s offered India nuclear weapons technology and wanted India to be the first Asian Nation to test a nuclear weapon Mr Neu said we don't want this and we are still paying the price of those actions and those consequences that's what I can say even IND Gandhi when she uh defeated Pakistan got independence to Bangladesh after that like she gave Bangladesh their own status and at the same time she led a lot of Bangladeshi people come into India which of course is leading to problem till dat it was said that she was the only man in her cabinet the major problem that's holding back the Indian economy it's called corruption we need to learn from the successes of other nations there's no need to reinvent the wheel a country like India which is countries within country we do need grassroot level leaders leadership is about doing the unpopular and difficult thing which may actually throw out of power if your people are illiterate and uneducated you are not a democracy so I would say India is not a democracy half the people don't even know what the hell they're doing there is the next big thing but okay it can be but let's just talk about have the potential to be the next big thing full potential but it's not happening because we are standing in our own way is India the next superpower in today's podcast we had the abijit Chava talking about the good and bad in India since Independence how can you take advantage of the growth of India to become wealthy if you are someone who wants to understand how did China and the United States of America become so big in such short span of time compared to India this podcast is for [Music] you India opened up in 1991 91 92 there abouts yeah correct China opened up in 1978 78 yes and a lot of people say that these 13 years are a major reason that China grew so much and India did not okay is is that true is it not true well it's not entirely true okay the system is what matters look India has a certain system China has a certain system China is a unipolar uni party State it's got a single party it's a dictatorship it's the dictatorship of the proletarian that's how it was created right India is this messy chaotic democracy a genuine democracy hundreds and thousands of political parties and each of them is pulling the country and its policies in different directions so in India you have all all these different agendas and interests that are conflicting cooperating to some extent and pulling the nation in various directions because of which there is there has been historically a tremendous amount of stagnation in India that's one factor that we to look into in China once the leadership the Chinese Communist Party decides to take a certain policy decision and go in a certain direction it happens it happens right away it it percolates all all the way down to the Grassroots because every single person who who has any power in China is a card carrying member of the Chinese Communist party so what the boss says everyone's going to do yeah or else and CH in China or else is really or else so everybody gets on board is always on board so when China decided in 1978 that they're going to open their economy up to the US and the other parts of the world gradually in a phased manner the entire country immediately was on board in India when you do c when the central government takes certain decisions many of the states want cooperate there's this this this thing called federalism in India Federalism is about all these conflicting interests local versus Central uh your Regional interests and your whatever interest against the sometimes against the nation's interests and so on so India is is built that that way it has been the system has been designed and structured by Design in that manner that the nation is essentially very often in a state of inertia and it's not going forward so even if India had liberalized let's say in 1978 it would not perhaps have been able to accelerate its economic growth as much as China did in such a short amount of time and we to understand that CH the real economic growth of China begins in the 1990s from in 1978 they kind of opened up to the US the Kissinger uh Nixon the thought which they had they flew over to Beijing and they spoke with ma whoever it was and things opened up but it took about 12 or 15 years for them to start actually going initially they were issuing the foreign companies what was called paper money or or or you know Monopoly money sort of thing you know and so on so it took them a while to to understand how the system works and all the global system the International System but once they started they went Full Steam and in the 1990s you can see that if you look at the graphs the Chinese graph just shoots up and outpaces everybody else in the universe essentially in India in 1992 when it was we start reforms we have various phases of reforms and yeah we we start seeing India kind of showing what its actual potential is the problem in India is a system there is a lot of inertia there are a lot of problems there are a lot of structural systemic problems there is a bureaucracy which is over overbearing I'm sure there are lots of good bureaucrats as well but the system is designed see what we have is nothing but a continuation of the 19th century colonial system the bureaucratic system which was designed to serve certain purposes and certain agendas what you need is a system that completely unleashes the full potential of the country economic potential the ease of doing business has to be there over here you want to start a company it takes you X number of days I don't know whatever it is in the US you can do it in two hours in the UK you can do it in three hours or whatever in Singapore Etc so it's it's still so difficult even if you want to do something you're motivated it's still so difficult to do things there are unnecessary hurdles and obstacles in the way if you know about physics there's something called res resistance in the path of the current there's a tremendous amount of resistance in India in doing anything so it's not just that India started late it's it's that India has lots of systemic issues that China doesn't have I'm not saying China is a perfect system economy it's a dictatorship and there are issues that come with that as well and we are beginning to see that coming into play now but I would say that the that India China the Divergent growth paths are because of a variety of factors mainly because of the kind of system the two countries have very different systems and secondly because uh we started late H correct so was there a lack of clarity in like the Indian government back in the day because you know we were very focused on uh back back during that time also that we'll make in India and you know we'll consume that was the Green Revolution was part of it and then suddenly we went to like you know we let the foreign companies come into the picture so was it a decision in haste by the Finance Minister back then I think it was Manan Singh uh what's the point here it was not a decision made in haste it was a decision made under duress let's say because India was on the verge of going bankrupt okay our foreign exchange reserves were what we had like two or 3 days or maybe whatever something like that of Foreign Exchange reserves and we would have defaulted on the wonderful loans we were taking from World Bank IMF whatnot so we had to ask them for a reprieve and in exchange for that they extracted several pounds of Flesh so when the World Bank the IMF get involved they're going to give you the money they're going to give you the loan but they will also tell you what to do with that money you can't use it for whatever you want so they're going to say okay we need these structural changes you're going to open up your economy to foreign investment they're going to come in over here in your country set up their their businesses they're going to whatever thing and and that's how India was forced to open up its its economy it's not something we did out of our choice and that made India kind of transparent to the world in terms of foreign interference in inter India's Internal Affairs which is geopolitical and political thing but yes it kind of had the effect of finally uh letting and see what the world is like before 1991 92 India viewers today won't believe it India was kind of like North Korea okay it was a completely closed off country insular inward looking country on the news if you watch dur dasan news which which came once or twice a day one in Hindi one in English 80% of the news would be about what which minister said in which ribbon cutting speech you would have no idea of what's what was happening outside the country and what the rest of the world was up to so India was completely insular inward looking in 1992 whatever it was it it kind of changed that you know foreign TV channels came into India so you suddenly got to see what's outside and all these misconceptions that people in India had about westerners and foreign PE people of other nationalities those started eventually melting away and so on so it was good for India but it was not done strategically it was done under duress the opening up was done under duress it was done on the terms of essentially the West because whether it's IMF or the World Bank these are instruments of the West and essentially the West means the us so that is what happened on the other hand when it comes to China they were able to systematically strategically decide what they would allow what they would not allow and do so in a phased Manner and that's why they were able to get the right kind of Technologies and companies into China and they had policies which ensure that China got those Technologies and eventually today you see that they have the Technologies they are actually at The Cutting Edge of many of these Technologies so that is the difference we did this under duress it's shown as a fact that it's done very thought like well thought process of like well you got to you got to do that that but the truth is the truth right we did the C duras we essentially had a gun to our head got it and like for you people to understand what does opening up an economy even mean like for example uh you can correct me if I'm wrong but basically you allow foreign companies to invest to take land to build factories and then to sell in the country like for example if Apple comes into the country they're uh they can build factories they can hire people they can sell their products Etc and India did not want to do that until let's say 1991 or even after that is because they thought that their domestic companies will be harmed they don't have the Capital Money Talent Innovation to handle the competition from these foreign companies and they'll be destroyed and India will be more or less controlled by the foreign companies is is that is that is the reason that country like India did not want to open up well it's it's it's complicated see in the in 1947 we be we get dominan status 1950 we become a republic and then we have the nehruvian regime the Nan era which was full State controlled socialism yeah Private Industry was kind of essentially verbo it wasn't allowed if you wanted to start a private company you had to go you had to get about 800 to 900 different approvals red tape and you had inspections every every other day and stuff it was almost impossible to to do any business in India which means that the state the central government and the state the government of India had a monopoly on all essentially all businesses all Industries so Mr Neu the great magnificent Mr Neu believed in Fabian socialism he was a Fabian socialist which was about gradu ual slow paced growth which is about 2% 3% the Nan rate of growth which is pejoratively called the Hindu rate of growth but it's actually the Nan rate of growth so you do not really have too much Private Industry in India unless those were cronies of the government and and whoever R run the government so it wasn't about India losing its its uh its independence or India losing its sovereignty because of foreign companies setting for in India it wasn't about that at all it was about complete control of the economy and they some for whatever reason they did not want India to grow at the pace at which it could have grown I mean look at 1945 China was devastated by the second world war you and then you had the kuang versus the Chinese Communist Party War also that happened Civil War China was devastated China was in a shambles look at Japan in 1945 two nuclear tests on Japanese territory and the hundreds of bombings that happened and see how quickly Japan Rose back on its feet with us help of course but imagine India at that stage India had a fully functioning infrastructure that was the Legacy what the British built at our expense uh and so on so imagine what we could have done with a proper government that actually cared about the nation and people and the growth yeah right so we missed the bus there so the government wasn't wasn't like it was trying to protect the domestic Industries it was trying to protect it its fdom it had a complete control on the Indian industry economy Industries all that and if you remember in the 1970s Coca-Cola was ejected out of India because of whatever socialist reasoning that you are a foreign company we like foreigners out that's what it was so it was at the detriment of India that that this happened what you should have been done is that foreign companies should have been allowed to strategically invest in India under Indian terms and conditions in such a way that it was beneficial to India and also to some extent to foreign companies that was very important I mean the foreign companies have the capital India has the resources India has the mineral resources what not natural resources and India has the the the you know the demographic dividend the the population young population hungry to work and all that that that could have been a game changer for India if we had done those things in the 1950s 607s but we did not start until 9192 and we are kind of on a certain path right now so that's how it was it was not about protecting India's private companies or anything it was about just not allowing foreign companies what was the agenda like because uh I've read up a little bit on um Neu G as well and I don't I don't get what he did in terms of a lot of things like for example um you know during the after after he became the Prime Minister from 1947 to until he died the 5year planning nothing seemed really planned or nothing seemed like we going towards this we going towards that and then he gave up the UNC also he gave it to China for some reason like we don't deserve it go to China yes and like I don't have the context of it but like what like what did he do for a country and what was he driven by like what was his incentives I I really don't know what drove him what was the logic behind his actions I mean if you look at I mean I I've spoken about this at length in in the past but if you look at the things that he has done I mean one wonders what was the purpose of doing all that the Sultan of Oman Oman offered India the port of guad which was an Omani possession the Sultan of Oman offers this port to India for free okay and Mr n says it's too far away we can't take care of it we will we don't want it and then it is sold to Pakistan for 15 million or whatever dollars okay so guad could have been Indian today you have Chinese ships but over there then you have the Koko Islands north of the Andaman nicobar archipelago which was given away as a gift to Burma and then it was offered by the burm of the Chinese and today we have a Chinese electronic surveillance station over there and you have the Cabo Valley in Manipur huge fertile Valley given away as a gift then you have the Kashmir issue our army could have taken back whatever was left of Kashmir in about three or four days a weeks time he stoed them he prevented them from doing it and he went to the UN and the problem still exists then you have China when the Chinese invad Tibet in the 1950s they were starving they were over stretched their lines of communication and Supply were were were too stretch too thin so Mr Neu supplied the Chinese soldiers with rice which prevented them from starving and enabled them to in to uh successfully conquer and occupy Tibet I'm not sure many people know about this then there is the United Nations security council issue the Americans the Soviets both offered the per permanent seat on the UN to India and Mr Neu it is recorded has rejected this at least on three different occasions and then he insisted that it be given to China because perhaps in his opinion China deserved it more than India I don't know what the logic was there is that President Kennedy in the early 1960s offered India nuclear weapons technology and wanted India to be the first Asian Nation to test a nuclear weapon Mr Neu said we don't want this we don't believe in Warfare we want peace and a couple of years later China invades had if India had a nuclear weapon at the time the Chinese would not have dared invade India and I could just go on and on I do not know what drove Mr Neu some in in I'm sure he was a good person he meant well but you know the path to hell is true is is is paved with good intentions what matters at the end is what results you produce for the country nothing else matters you may be a saintly person but if you're a saint please don't go go into politics don't become a leader yeah okay if you believe in veva kutumbakam you know in the p in the jataka tales I believe the vva K kutumbakam is a CAU AR tale it is not something to be taken literally it it it's a tale that tells you that if you believe the whole world is you're family the lions and tigers and jackles will come and eat you up that's what it says yeah so uh today we we use vuda kumbam as a slogan of which which serves to show how great we are morally we don't need to be morally great we have to just take care of our country so I don't know what drove Mr Nero I I simply don't know but I know what he did and what the consequences have been and we are still paying the price of those actions and those consequence that's what I can say 100% and uh this continued even after he died right like even indraa Gandhi when she uh defeated Pakistan got independence to Bangladesh even after that like she gave Bangladesh their own status and at the same time she let a lot of Bangladeshi people come into India which of course is leading to problem till date in that section in the East section of our country so why did that continue like why did she not put a stop to it and what was the logic behind that Bangladesh thing also right right see Mrs Gandhi did a tremendous job in in Breaking Pakistan into and it was said that she was the only man in her cabinet right it was said that and and she did a very good job of of executing the liberation of Bangladesh I mean people will say that it's the Indian army that did that but without the political will and the political you know willingness to take this gigantic risk this would not have happened she actually went on a world tour of several Nations while this was about to happen and she knew it's going to happen and it it was very well planned and coordinated so there is that there is that and then obviously we have the American and British two entire aircraft carrier strike groups that came into the Bay of Bengal to bully India and Mrs Gandhi coordinated with with the Soviets to ensure there's a Soviet nuclear suburan task force in the Bay of Bengal to to stare these guys down and that's how we were able to liberate Bangladesh now what happens is that after the liberation of East Bengal see East Bengal had been part of Pakistan East Pakistan for about 20 25 years after 1947 to 72 71 it's about 24 years just 24 years not part of India historically for thousands of years Bengal has been part of India it's always been part of bat wor whatever you say so it should have been re integrated into the country and if it was not reintegrated into the country then the refugees who had come into India fleeing from Pakistan Pakistani genocide they should have been repatriated well I don't know why this did not happen and then the Shimla agreement happened which was well it kind of handed over the advantage to Pakistan we gave back 97,000 surrendered Pakistani Soldiers the biggest Mass surrender in human history we gave them back without trying them for war crimes and genocide now why did this happen is the question that's the mood qu that's the mood point over here why did this happen I would imagine see a lot of people would would want to blame Mrs Gandhi for this there was a tremendous amount of geopolitical pressure on India at the point at that point in time even the Soviets did not want India to become too powerful okay everybody wanted a certain amount of status quo by breaking Pakistan in two we did bring the status quot you know slightly towards the side and also it was kind of favorable to the USSR and then they would want it to stay at that so India probably was behind the scenes forced to make some further concessions because look you got this big prize you got your big military Victory now re yourself in that's what I imagine so I think India was at some at some level there must have been some diplomacy behind the scenes behind the scenes diplomacy is very different from public diplomacy public diplomacy is all about Curt sees and very polite people and all that behind the scenes it's arm twisting blackmail whatnot open naked threats okay that's what happens in diplomacy behind the scenes behind closed doors so I expect some of that would have happened and uh that's why India was forced to give away some of the advantage to Pakistan Pakistan occupies a very important position west of India historically part of India for thousands of years it's a temporary Nation Pakistan eventually it'll revert to uh what it naturally is Pakistan is a Garrison State that was created to serve as a proxy for the for the British event originally because oil had been discovered in the Middle East region in Saudi Arabia and they wanted somebody to safeguard that on their behalf they would pay them something the Pakistan something and eventually the British seized to be an Empire and the center of power was transferred from London to Washington and the US took Reigns of the same Empire nothing has changed uh so then Pakistan become becomes a us uh vasal so to say us proxy and then the Afghan Invasion by the Soviets happens in late 19 70s and then Pakistan becomes very important so today Pakistan is a very important nation and that's the role it plays and it's going to exist as long as the Americans and the chines wanted to exist yeah yeah you brought this Pakistan topic up and Pakistan is they don't even have the power it's it's basically being funded by the West like all the Ws all the attacks Kashmir it's it's all to like balance of power like okay India is getting stronger let's get money into Pakistan to do something in India we'll do it 5 years slowdown in India we'll do it again when in 2008 5 years slowdown in India again we'll do some Ur strike 5 years slowdown in India so that's how British has kept the or British of the US has kept the divide and Rule Alive by even fueling the weaker version and then fueling such Regional head and all that you know Bangladesh was just 24 years they were not part of it but otherwise it's part of bhat similarly Pakistan was also part of India for a longest of time only in recent times which we just don't realize it's recent that 1947 is when we sort of segregated so it's been what 8 75 80 years but at the end they're same people why do we give control to the how can we get out of this Loop yeah yeah excellent question look the way I see pakistanis they are our blood they are our people the only thing that separates us is religion okay and when you have two family members who get become estranged the hatred is intense okay as compared to some random enemy you have somewhere in your workplace or whatever okay when it is a family member who is your blood and they you become EST strange with them the the hatred hatred is intense so that is the situation between India and Pakistan now how did this happen what is the deal look there is a balance of power in the world geopolitical balance of power you canate you can calculate a cumulative hard power score for each Nation okay based on its its population its area its military um spending its economy and and other factors you do all that and you calculate a number for each nation and if you look at any any region in the world like let's say the Eurasia region or the Asia Pacific region or Western Europe or whatever there is a certain balance of power each nation has a certain score and power is something that that is like a force that pushes outwards so overall if you look at a region you will see which nation is pushing outwards the most through its power and what kind of balance exists so in Asia you have a certain amount of balance China is the most powerful Nation it's about roughly four times more powerful than India from the Western perspective India serves as a counterbalance to China that is the limited utility India has correct in in this in this context so India is a counterbalance from the Western eyes to China but India should not rise too much because that will be a problem because India is capable of becoming the next China so something has to counterbalance India so that is Pakistan so Pakistan counterbalances India and right now there there is this attempt to create a new Pakistan east of India kukil land okay and they trying to hem India between two pakistans so that is happening right now as we speak okay the Bangladeshi Prim Minister has complained about this in public so so Pakistan is a counterbalance to India but Pakistan also should behave itself so the Taliban is a counterbalance to Pakistan that's the game being played at multiple levels it is alleged by highly placed sources that the Americans are paying a stipend of between $50 to 80 million in cash every week to the Taliban okay so Taliban did not conquer Afghanistan it the nation was handed to them on a platter that's what happened so every nation has a certain amount of utility in the eyes of the West the US is the sole superpower in the world it essentially runs the world it controls the so-called rules based world order it controls the entire global economy it has more than 800 extra territorial military bases all across the world outside the that's what makes them powerful power projection and the nation that scares them the most is not China the Americans will talk about China until the cows come home after grazing but the nation that scares them in their night in their sleep in the nightmares is is Russia Russia is a near superpower a gigantic Nation a panasia nation and the world's most powerful nuclear weapons power power yes and they have the the means to to uh to send those gifts wherever they want you know those packages nuclear warheads so the Russians are what scare America but coming back to India and Pakistan Pakistan has a very simple limited utility for the US it is a counter bands to India in initially it was served to project power in the West Asia region uh for as as a proxy of the UK and that's what it is so what do we do about this that's the question right well to do this see there are only I would say four genuinely Sovereign nations in the world the US Russia China and India and when you are the most powerful Nation you are genuinely a Sovereign Nation you mean no Army of other countries inside the country that is one factor and secondly nobody is able to interfere in your interal matters through cyber means or whatever other means through proxies within your nation so when it comes to that India does have some proxies allegedly in its on its soil that are proxies of other nations but that game Everybody Plays okay so there are four genuinely Sovereign Nations the most powerful is the US with a hard power score of about 94 or something next is Russia with a hard power score of about 55 56 then it's China with a score of about 16 then you have India with a score of 4.9 these are the four genuinely Sovereign Nations for India to ensure to end this threat of Pakistan and and the Pakistan when I'm talking about the threat of Pakistan I'm talking about the Pakistani military not the people the people are victims the people of Pakistan are victims theyve been groaning under this weight this burden of the Pakistani military for the past 70 80 years so to ensure that this finally ends this this terrible thing ends we have to rise as a nation we have to increase our hard power score which means we have to build up our economy to 5 10 15 trillion dollar Mark and our military uh Power should also be commensurate in its expansion and we have to improve our power projection capabilities which means Navy Navy Navy we are a g we have a god- gifted Geographic position we dominate the Indian Ocean region we jut far down into the Indian Ocean region we should be a maritime superpower we haven't done that thus far we have what 15 16 17 submarines are we kidding the South Kore the nor North Koreans have more submarines than us so we need to do that we need to build assets we need to build assets that which which distribute our lethality in instead of concentrating lethality on four or five big powerful assets so we need to do all these things so the solution to the problem is India needs to grow Indian needs to rise in a non-threatening manner as as long as possible and obviously we are not a hegemonic nation we don't cover other nations territory we have never been the way Chinese and the Americans have been or the westerners have been so that's what IND needs to do got it now this brings back me to the because you mentioned that we need to become bigger and begun as an economy first we covered The Liberation perspective now second is in economics if you if you need to grow one is investment L growth right like China did that very well as well um using debt as a tool the interest rate were low in back then in China as well and India uh what I read according to my research is that even though India tried to give debt to the people and to business people all all your major businessmen it was not utilized the right way now what I mean by that is even while growing up I've seen a lot of NPS happening non-performing assets we've heard about 10,000 CR loan being taken and you know the uh Banks running away and all those people not just one case that we might think of multiple multiple cases is what has flashed in the news with turn, cres diamond uh person with 4,000 CR I remembered so I can literally tell you right now 30,000 40,000 CR which is in my head so I'm assuming it's way bigger and it must be happening since couple of decades so investment Le growth was not ever able to probably do what it could compared to China because as you mentioned China it's much simpler and straightforward because of course it's it's autocratic India it has much more layers and all that so the compounding never happened like The Liberation happened the process were set now the investment let growth happened because of that in India this did not happen properly as you explained and then the investment growth also did not happen because of NPS so what do you think about this so I would say the the major problem that's holding back the Indian economy is that the system is designed to do something that it is not supposed to do it is designed it is constructed and created in such a way that it does things that it officially is not supposed to do what what is what is this called it's called corruption okay uh whether we like it or not I think every Indian knows at various levels from top to bottom not exactly at the very top I would say now thankfully but at various levels there is the system does things that it is not supposed to do it is it is illegal to do okay and people within the system are the beneficiaries this is the textbook definition of corruption correct so I would say that the major thing that is holding India back from unleashing its true energy and potential is corruption corruption creates levels of resistance at every level when you want to do something you have to waste your money giving bribes here or there or or pleasing some official or that that file is not moving so I'm going to have to lubricate the goddamn machine whatever that is what is holding India back imagine 90% of the corruption disappears from India imagine how vast the Indian economy can become how quickly it can be Unleashed so I wonder when are we going to launch our big war on corruption that is the one thing that is holding India back I not saying no other country has this problem I would say that the US is the major most corrupt nation in the world why do I say this Americans boast that their criminal justice system is the best their policing system is the best in the world their FBI and CI are the best right I mean the best in the world the best in class if that is so my dear friends why is every single American able to purchase drugs at 5 minutes minutes notice they know it's there they are allowing this to happen drugs are illegal in the 70s and ' 80s when I remember there used to be this this concern about kids having access to cigarettes yeah well cigarettes are nothing compared to hard drugs and every American can access drugs so America is corrupt tremendously corrupt so I'm not saying it's only India I'm not say I mean look at China China also has tremendous corruption within the Chinese Communist party but the corruption doesn't hamper the national progress and growth in China okay to some extent it may but not the way it does in India so I would say the one thing that is the major thing that's holding India back is corruption at various levels you want to start a business you want to do anything every business person knows what happens so I would say that is one thing that needs to be fixed and obviously uh ease of doing business is there we need to make it as easy as possible to people with with uh the motivation and the drive to do something to solve problems to conduct their businesses and obviously Investments it should be easy to get Investments you know and NPA you you mentioned NPA is non-performing assets uh I think it was the norm in India from the 1950s onwards okay it's only now that NPS have been kind of controlled or written whatever has has been done has been written off okay we've start a fresh and hopefully now we don't have NPS um I would say that the government like Mr like Prime Minister Modi says the government has no business being in business and he has been walking the talk I mean Air India has been privatized and all it is facing some teething issues and all I think we all know how Air India is right now I think it's going to take time it's got this tremendously gigantic bloated amount staff and all that you're going to pay their salaries I think they allow to cut cut it down and lean it down a little bit so these problems exist but we've got to do this you know the government should stay out of business it should make the make uh create a Level Playing Field for all business people no matter how big or small they are everybody should get access to Capital everybody should be able to take risks and you know sometimes you you mess up in business you you not going to do well you declare bankruptcy and move move on and start again I mean that process should be there so I think that's the the direction in which India needs to go but isn't corruption getting less and lesser in India right now I would say it is I would say it is I think things are getting really better I think everything is online now so when it when it came to uh you know dispersing various benefits to people at the Grassroots level whe whether it is their I don't know what the schemes are called but you know government gives various kinds of benefits and Aid to various people earlier Mr Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi used to say that if 100 rupees is sent from Delhi about 15 PESA reaches the the intended recipient today it is 100% so a tremendous amount of progress has happened in in tackling these issues but a tremendous amount of more progress needs to happen that's what I'm saying I'm not saying nothing is being done but I would like to see a genuine official public battle war against corruption yeah but yeah I'm not saying that it's not there I think this this current government has done a tremendous amount of good good good work in this direction go yeah and this brings me back to something called incent alignment right like again India versus China um and I was reading this report where it mentioned that if you look at uh us and British government they are not topheavy mhm the they're not underst staffed and they're uh the number of politicians and number of Mayor Mayors are given a lot of importance in you know in uh in the US in the UK like for example New York has a mayor and mayor is basically the head of the city right and in India that's not the case at all India is all about top heavy like even for like the reason we don't have proper roads in kandali or Andi V because the decision making takes so much time it needs approval of the state government and then you know all that um like in Delhi there's Delhi Development Authority but they don't have any power they are waiting from approvals from multiple people um so as I saw this graph if you imagine xaxis and y axis it's it's like this uh this is top down and this is like uh bottom heavy and this is how the US is structured this is the UK structured wherein people are incentivized the Mayors are incentivized to perform well in their region and China I think a did the best that because they autocratic and that's an advantage to a certain extent is that they were told that you have to perform in your small economy of let's say Andheri West or like small economy of kandhi or Mumbai or Navi Mumbai based on that your promotions are there exactly so incentives are aligned at the grassroot level compared to the top level here it's all about top level and nobody's car caring about what's happening yeah the system is designed in that manner top top down topheavy kind of system because it was designed by the British to serve their purpose to to serve their agenda of extraction out of India so if you look at every whichever institution you look at in in the Indian governmental system all those institutions were created by the British and they all suffer from these fundamental drawbacks and flaws and deficiencies that they were designed to oppress the Indians and enslave the Indians and keep them down crush them down every single I would say I would say most institutions are designed that way and you can see the effect of that all over the place so what we need to do is we need reforms we desperately need reforms in this country the people of this country have this tremendous energy India as a Young Nation they all want to contribute to the country but they're not being allowed to they being suppressed they're being they're being kept down so we need to learn from the successes of other nations there's no need to reinvent the wheel or you learn from the successes of your own ancestors I mean read the arastra as to how a state how statecraft should be conducted how government should be should be you know uh designed and and implemented so you need to learn from what others have done not need to reinvent the wheel learn from Singapore learn from the US learn from China learn from your enemies learn from your friends learn from your adversaries everybody we need to have reforms in this country and unleash the true potential of the nation so they are doing the right thing in their own country but they are uh they gave us all the wrong system of course and even after 80 years we're still suffering with that we still glorifying the system that the British created and we don't even realize that the system is a system of Oppression and extraction the British see the top was the British and everybody else entire infrastructure was the Indians so the top has been replaced by certain other people and everything else is the same and now they benefit the way the British used to benefit that's the problem and a country like India which is countries within country we do need grassroot level leaders we need leaders in Mumbai we need leaders in I don't know Karnataka and then small villages in Indra nagar of Bangalore and all that for development to happen there because central government cannot take care of each and everything they don't know half of the things and that's why I think a lot of people are saying that it's good that the current government government has to partner with multiple parties because then there's more diversification in decision making and more thinking at grassroot level do you agree with that look I would say that India like you said that India is a country within a within countries uh countries within country India is look today it is defined as a nation state but historically we are a civilization State we have so many peoples with different languages all similar to each other the one thing we have is the same culture overall okay historically we have been that we have lots of different languages but we all understand each other so we have these gigantic blocks you know linguistic blocks and states have been defined linguistically and like you said it's stop heavy what needs to happen is we need to empower the decision to to empower the people at the Grassroots who can quickly make decisions and do what's right for the people and that's how it should be so we need to have centralization as well as decentralization certain amount of power has to be decentralized the quick reaction time like you know in a nervous system certain reactions are not taken by the brain they're taken by the spinal cord so that sort of thing needs to be there so so we need to have that sort of Reform reforming of the system uh we need to empower the people at the Grassroots while having a tremendous amount of power at the center as well because when you have a nation that is a size of a subcontinent you need to have a lot of centralized power as well so when it comes to foreign policy Economic Policy Etc it should be centralized power when it comes to governance daily day-to-day matters and all decision should be taken at the Grassroots level so it should be done in that manner in such a way that it benefits the the people after all at the end of the day we want the long-term security prosperity and progress of the people of the nation and its people the people are what makes the nation the people are the actual stakeholders they should get the most of the benefit of the system not the people who run the system so that's what needs to happen but again incentives don't align here because even though the British made the system the current people in power why would they want to decent absolutely right absolutely right look these guys guys girls ladies gentlemen's whoever whoever is in power today whether you are a district corporator like you say municipal corporator or MLA or or or what MP or whatever you have come they have all come to power because of the system that exists why would they undermine the system exactly so leadership true leaders this is where we talk about leadership true leadership leadership is about taking unpopular decisions it will be popular at the Grassroots among the people who have no power but it's going to be deeply unpopular among the people who have benefited from the system if you try to reform the system leadership is not about being popular leadership leadership is about doing the unpopular and difficult thing which may actually throw you out of power that's what true leadership is about that's why there are very few genuine leaders in world history I'm not talking about today historically very few people have the force of character and the force of that that vital energy that can you know push everything aside and get get the right thing done so that's what we need is there anything we as Citizens can do about it like how can we make it accountable and is there any other country is China with like with China is very clear we are in power end of the story so their incentives I'm thinking is we have to make China more powerful because we will get more powerful by making China more powerful yes aligned yeah exactly that's align with India it's like we have to be in power within India and that's how we powerful and we have to fight with other parties and this party and that party and of course we'll slowly maintain this also so like multiple incentives going in multiple directions there's no Focus conflicting interests yes yes yes so according to what's the solution to this there's no easy solution to this problem look I would say something very unpopular here when you have a nation the size of a subcontinent a gigantic civilization State you need a very strong power center and a look I'll just ask you this question straightforward yeah think about the last 2 and a half thousand 3,000 years of Indian history think about the greatest rulers we have seen and the greatest people who have served the nation I can think of Chandra Gupta Moria who unified the subcontinent and his joh son Ashok Moria was a very cruel Emperor but he was great for the people of the country of the of the subcontinent because he unified everything and people enjoyed a great quality of life and all that then you have kanishka the great who did more than I would say anybody else in spreading Indian culture worldwide civilization worldwide India was great under him then you have the Gupta Emperors who did so much for us you have the cholas rajar Raj rajendra Chola you have chhatrapati shii Maharaj and I'm apologize if I missed a few think of the greatest the the periods when our country has done the best what form of government did we have at the time did we have an elected electoral democracy was the king or the emperor elected no they were not elected what's a what's a monarchy what's an what's what's an imperial system it's a dictatorship correct but even in these dictatorships when you had go back five 6,000 years 10,000 years Lord L Lord Ram Lord Krishna they were Kings they were hereditary monarchs they were not elected by their people they were also in today's by today's terms there were dictators yeah so you had dictators at the top and you had a certain kind of democracy at the at the bottom level where people could elect their own local officials and they would be accountable to the people it was a hybrid system that we had India always had historically a hybrid system we had democracy at a certain level but you could not question I mean you could question the guy at the top and actually you could actually uh if the guy was really bad you could have him ejected through whatever means so that's the kind of system we have and that's been what has always worked for US Today's democratic system okay it is democracy wonderful everybody gets to vote once once in five years but do you get to participate in governance democracy is not about voting once a year it's about actually having your right rights and and interests represented and and the people see look you can't even you can't even vote for your prime minister you can only vote for your local MP and then these MPS will get together and decide who's the Prime Minister why is it this way why can't I mean at least you should have a presidential Sy in the country the minimum we should have is a presidential system or we should have have a hybrid dictatorship like better than the what the Chinese have I mean look at the United States okay the US is a democracy right the US is a two- party State the blues and the Reds okay you have the uh Democratic party and the Republican party and both these parties have the same economic policies and the same foreign policy and the same military policy so it's actually a uni party State and even if you say it's a two-party State I mean it's just one step above North Korea and China okay and today you have a president he said he said what he he called the president of Ukraine Mr Putin and he and he any he and and he called his vice president Mr Trump so he has no idea what he's doing but the nation is running itself isn't it so there is a center of power that is extra constitutional extra Democratic in the US an unelected uh Center of power so the US is actually a dictatorship an autocracy masquerading as a democracy because that what that's what works for the nation that's what it is so there is no genuine democracy in the world anywhere okay any democratic system has certain things that are unseen and hidden and most people are not supposed to know about this so I would say that the best system is what serves the country the best at the end of the day the system and its leadership and the government is supposed to ensure the long-term prosperity and progress and security and territorial integrity and cultural demographic Integrity of the nation and its people longterm I mean the next 200 300 years that's how longterm we thinking if the system is not serving it then to hell with the system it doesn't matter whether it's Democratic or dictatorship I mean dictators can be terrible I mean we have so many examples of horrible dictators okay but you have examples of great dictators as well just in the 20th century lewu of Singapore he completely transformed The Fortunes of Singapore true he was a dictator all right so there are many such examples so it doesn't matter what system it is what matters is the what what you do with the power that you have so that's how I see it now people will accuse me of being being a a proponent of dictatorship I am a proponent of the of the nation's interests and whatever serves them is fine if it if it democracy serves it great I'm All Pro democracy if it's a hybrid system I'm Pro that whatever serves the nation and its people is what is best we became a democracy prematurely like we shouldn't have become it so soon um like that's where I again go back to you know Neu G when he made made us a democracy and anyway he only led us to the next I tell you what are we really a democracy for a democracy to truly work the people have to be educated they should know what they are doing what who they what they're voting for true if your people are illiterate and uneducated you are not a democracy so I would say India is not a democracy half the people don't even know what the hell they're doing and many people are voting for this incentive that incentive this many rupia that many rupia you call that you call that a democracy you have certain parties that have captive vote Banks who are imported from other countries you call that a democracy that subwords democracy so I do not agree that India is a democracy I don't think any nation is genuinely a democracy without a properly educated populace you are not a democracy true yeah now now coming to the next point which is uh foreign direct investment right um again China when it opened up it had multiple companies from the West investing into the uh country India it's it's like it's like compounding of the problems that we have in India we mentioned the government problems local government problems again the problem that most of the foreign companies coming in India face is that they go to China everything is solved for them in like 3 hours red carpet red carpet exactly that's that's a good also we have red car if you don't have red carpet have red tapism no we have a white carpet we make you you make it red yeah so that's a big problem like even a small GST change that I'm doing right now from my hometown I know what you mean it's a such a pain in the neck it's a pain and it's it's expensive also for the uh and not for like direct payment expensive it's it's expensive tax compliance is such a hassle such a pain why is it so difficult just to pay tax why can't you simplify the system get I mean I'm not against paying taxes but make it simple why is it so difficult I mean there are so many issues in this country which can be straightened out I mean if you are a foreign investor who is thinking of investing in India first of all I want to set up a plant to manufacture whatever let's say Tesla rockets in India let's just this Rockets that's weird SpaceX Rockets roet okay so I'm going to need land now it's going to take me how many years to get the land that is the biggest problem first big problem then how many permissions and certificates and what not do I need to get then when I get that place that land and all that then the local politicians municipality people will come and bother me for this or that I got to deal with them you got to learn a whole new universe if you come into India I just want to come here throw my money at you people and do my business and I want to make profits and hopefully you guys also get something out of it that's all it is but you're not allowing them to do it instead of rolling out the red carpet you are putting up all these all these barriers in front of them why would anybody come in anybody come in we need fore an investment we want all the manufacturing to happen from India but then make it happen make it easy for them to do to make this happen I mean people are talking about China China plus one now they want to to have alternatives to China The Logical alternative is India this gigantic Nation a huge Workforce who need jobs we can manufacture set up your plans over here you know put your machines here teach whatever skills the locals need and have them do it but instead of that I hear that people are going to Vietnam and whatnot correct indes right Indonesia Etc these smaller Nations so what is driving them away from India the government need to think about it solve the problems make it happen I don't care what the problems are I don't care what the excuses are I need results the people of India need results so I think this needs to happen I mean whatever the issues are at the end of the day the only metric the only yard stick by which you measure the the performance of a leader is the results he or she provides that's all that matters I don't care how much whether they sleep 18 hours whether they stay awake 18 or 20 or 23 hours a day or how much they work I don't care what matters is results that's the only thing that matters so that's what we need to see correct yeah and this is what I'm enjoying right like you're not denying any of the problems most of the people I meet they're like no is the next big thing but okay it can be but let's just talk about the potential to be the next big thing full potential but it's not happening because we are standing in our own way when I say we I mean the entire government Machinery 100% like I see so many people around me hiring all the time and we just don't have the good people that we can hire that's another problem and that which brings me the education aspect which has been going on since 1980s that we discussed FDI we discussed infrastructure we discussed uh globalization all that but if you not have people like even investment L growth is a problem wherein from economics angle it's like you have people in the country India is blessed with population we have so much young population and they're unproductive we can make them productive we need money to put in so investment let growth put in the money and you'll see the result but they need to be educated also what will you do with by giving 100,000 Rupees to person who's uneducated you'll just probably spend it on a you know gambling app or something like that so education again comes back and bites us back it's it's not a problem of we don't have enough jobs we just don't have enough skilled people that is another gigantic problem very well said look the education system is another millstone around our neck we have I don't know millions of people coming out every year young students coming out into the job market with degrees these pieces of paper but what skills do they have when you when any of them goes into an IT company or whatever company they're going to have to be retrained from scratch essentially trained from scratch the company is going to have to invest I don't know six months to one year just to get them up to the basics okay that's what is happening and many of them don't even have the aptitude for doing that because they their brains have been lobotomized since they were children by the education system look every young kid is full of curiosity full of of talent full of whatever they were born with and the education system takes that Curiosity and and and and that smashes it out of their heads okay year after year after year you you you know what teachers like they like obedient students they don't like students who ask questions so you're not allowed to ask questions and you have to ask permission for everything may I sit up stand up Madam may I sit down teacher may I go to the L teacher can I breathe teacher that's what it does it turns you into robots Okay that's is one problem it then it doesn't teach you how to think it teaches you what to think exactly it doesn't allow you to ask questions thinking is about asking questions that's how you uncore problems and that's how you discover Solutions the education system that we have is nothing but a continuation of the 19th century colonial education system that the British imposed upon us after destroying our actual traditional education system and the objective of this education system that we have today is to churn out clerks and peons unthinking robots who will simply obey their masters okay the purpose of any education system is to create Bright Young talented confident skilled individuals who will go out into the world and and transform the world we need leaders we need people who can do things who can create things today with most of these degrees in English literature or Commerce or whatever what can you produce with a degree what what can you manufacture or produce you can't produce anything so that's the kind of system we have we need genuine reforms in the system the quality of teachers has to be tremendously improved teachers are abysmal 99% of teachers don't care about the students the entire education system is commercialized industrialized I would I would say that in any civilized society the healthcare system and this and the educ system should be completely free but it should be very difficult okay most kids don't want a master's degree they want a job allow them to get a diploma in whatever thing field they're interested in with the skill set that it needs and let them start working by the age of 15 or 16 why do you need to study until 23 25 to get a degree let 80% 90% of them get out with diplomas and the diploma should be enough to get a good job it's only those who want to go into research or teaching or or whatever who should go into the master's degree or PhD you know kind of thing so we need these deep structural reforms in the education system the purpose of the education system is to turn out tremendously gifted skilled confident young leaders okay that's the purpose and the stakeholders in in education system are the students not the godamn teachers I'll tell you what what the problem is today in the Indian education system the staff and the teachers are the stakeholders and we are being taught we we are forced to learn everything in a foreign language today you can't get a job in this country without a good knowledge of the English language so as a kid I'm 3 years old my brother take is whatever now I go to school and I say a for apple b for Bear what the hell is this you so you to First learn a foreign language and then study in that foreign language kids learn the best in their mother tongues why are we so anti-indian languages I am a product of that I am more comfortable in a foreign language English that in my own mother tongue or any Indian language that's a problem look at the Chinese I mean you know what they say that without English there is no progress English is the language of science quantum mechanics who were the fathers of quantum mechanics nil borer Danish Albert Einstein German Lou the bo French enrio fmy Italian not a single one of them was was their mother tongue was English apart from d and they all wrote their papers in a non-english language all the papers that gave birth to Quantum Mechanics look at the Chinese their education system is in Chinese look at the Japanese look at the Germans look at everybody else we are the only slavem minded sheep who continue to offer education system in the English language English is an inferior language it's a backward language English doesn't even have its own script the script the English language uses is the Latin script which was developed for Italy English had its own script which was eradicated so English is a backward inferior language compared to any Indian language I would say that historically the only civilization language we've had is sanskrit we should bring that back just like the Israelis were able to revive their civilization language Hebrew but I think that's a step too far I'll get too much opposition if I say this million people will have political reasons for opposing this so at least reform the system you can think about the language issue later but the system needs reform and I think that's why travel helped so much like because I started to realize these subtle situations or like differences when I traveled when I when I was in the UK last year I was like UK is much better India why like why why is it being told that India is the next big thing and all that all that and then I went to Europe of course I thought okay Europe is not that great India is good but then the more I travel the more I see different culture different economies the more I realize the problem with the Indian culture or the Indian systems and all that and I think that is somewhere missing like of course I have the privilege to travel and most of the Indians do not have the privilege so they are in that bubble and nobody's there to educate Now by a content and of course people like you and who are talking about it we at least start thinking about it but I think we still very far away from yeah I agree I I totally agree Indians uh the problem is that we are still a low income Nation you know the per capita GDP is still very low and that's why Indians don't have the privilege to travel the more you travel the more Your Horizon broaden the more Nations you visit the more peoples and cultures you experience the more of a broader understanding you gain of the world it gives you whole different perspective lots of different contexts to think about contrasting and comparing and stuff so yeah most most Indians don't have that they only have one worldview that's the one that's come from the education system and the media and that's what they are stuck with and that's why I don't blame any any people in India for whatever they believe it's not their fault they are victims of the system all of them have tremendous potential but they they are on various paths which are detrimental to the country to themselves they most Indians never reach the true potential they don't even know what they're capable of because of the beliefs the The Limited beliefs limiting beliefs the education system the teachers the textbooks and the media and the entertainment industry whoever it is it's all part of that and that's that all creates this thing from from a business perspective also um you know there's a brain Rin coner which has been going on since years and I think 85,000 people last year left their Indian passports and went to the US uh and other countries that tells me that now that with discussion also and you can correct me if I'm wrong but it feels like the government or the structural level there are more changes required first for entrepreneur or businesses to come like there have been so many businesses who came in education like you know the biggest of the names raised because of the funding and now they are nowhere yeah so it does tell you that incentives again are not aligned somewhere between the private sector and the government sector because there was such a brute force of funding and money and you know K12 education involved and still were not able to do a lot even for 15 years yes tells you a lot about not just the startup but also the country like did we not have the right reforms to support that igation system did the government not support uh that startup or different not just one startup but other startups to grow in the right direction because as an entrepreneur I'm thinking he okay there are so many problems that I can solve but if I go deeper into it it feels like I am not I can't I cannot solve it without the support of the government and they won't support you the system won't support you the system will will make you swim against the current exactly yeah so this is a big this is a very direct metric of What the how big the problem is brain drain people leaving the country people giving up their passport taking another passport or or people just immigrating on an H1B Visa or whatever just just get out of the country anyhow kids spend so much money their parents have to spend so much money to give them you know uh whatever degree in the west or in Australia or even China or usbekistan or whichever country anything except for India that I've heard that people even study in Bangladesh okay so that is where we are and that tells you that there's a deep rooted problem in this country so when people ask me about this what should I do I love my country but I getting this offer here or there I say get the hell out of the country okay go to go wherever you want wherever you're getting an offer you work there you make something of your life you acquire the skills you acquire the experience acquire money become wealthy and then when you're in your 30s or 40s if you still love your country then why don't you come back and do something for the country but without becoming a person of substance you can't do anything very true very true so I I always say if you are getting opportunities go pursue those opportunities first make something of yourself and then eventually when the time comes come and serve your country great you should do that and that again that brings back brings me back to America and the American dream no matter how many flaws they have they have made sure that entrepreneurs are able to thrive abolutely nobody's stopping them they and it's one of the reasons they the super economy part right like my top five US stocks are like my top five stocks are US Stocks like it's meta it's Google it's Nvidia of course now the biggest company in the world like what's happening so they are good with that even with uh Germany like Germany is a Powerhouse of you know companies you have not even heard of but there are some like of course you know the BMWs and Mercedes and boses of the world but apart from that there's so many uh companies in that town of Munich in automobile and beyond that which are making what Germany is right and you think about India like three four five companies that you can name off which also with a lot of support yeah and that so that's the thing right we have to ask ourselves why are we not producing the next uh Space X or Tesla or or or whatever alphab bet Google Facebook Twitter X whatever why isn't any of this coming out of India yeah is a serious problem here our best minds are going there and building those very same things you go to the us as a student what you will find is that you're going to be taught all these subjects by an Indian Professor okay most likely it's going to be an Indian professor and then you go to an take a job in one of these big companies and your CEO is going to be Indian yeah but at the end of the day you end up bolstering their power it's all Indians over there that is genuinely true Indians everywhere so it's it's Indians who are doing all this but why can't we attract them back to India the Chinese have kind of solved the problem they have the Thousand talents program they have so many programs that bring genuine Talent back to China but they are made to feel welcome they given the salaries commensurate with their talent and their experience and their standing and they are helping build China so China is doing all these things we are doing nothing which is extremely intensely deeply disappointing true I agree yeah I've written this line also because I thought it's very relevant to this situation which is like China attracts talent and exports industry products India exports talent and imports industry products there you have it there you have it even even us for that matter attracts talent and I I read this somewhere last week that us is the national capital of the best talent that the world produces they just get them inside their country and then they do their job it's like in a company I say that hire the right kind of people and then as a as a Founder you just have to chill do anything and that's what the US has been able to do best talent of India best of the UK best of China whatever and they are there and we are just like playing with the and the Chinese they will never admit to this but they idolize the US they seek to become the next us they have been copying everything the US has done right since the '90s you can see it in everything you can see it in their RB uniforms you can see it in their attitudes behaviors the way their companies are run and all it's all they've they've tried to emulate the US even their foreign policy tries to emulate the US and so on so the Chinese have done what we should have been doing we should have identified what what is going right right in various parts of the world various countries what is doing what right and try to emulate that no need to reinvent the wheel but we we are stuck in this moralizing Loop and we were once great and all okay it's great that you were once great but what about today what are you doing raise your standards we're not doing that so like what are the major factors of differences between the US and India like we discussed a bunch of it but I only see Liberation liberalization as a tick mark between India and China rest everything we tried doing but we fail that FDI we tried doing but we fa that investment growth we tried we fa that education again we talk a lot about it but it's one of the lowest percentage of the GDP that we invest back I think it's 1.8% or something compared to the German Germans who have like I think 5% which is 3x which is much more uh where are we lacking what should we do today as uh citizens entrepreneurs and as a government to like change this first of all we need to reform the education system without that nothing's going to change okay because we need quality in the workforce we need quality in the citizenry the quality is there when you're born but the quality is smashed out of you through the education system so the education system should actually identify what your what Your aptitudes are what your talents are and should focus on that and make it better so we need to reform the education system first of all that is non-negotiable secondly ease of doing business and ease of investing in India that needs to happen and obviously U I would say these are the only two things there there's so much more we could do but if you were to ask me the top two this would be the top two first of all education secondly U ease of doing business business you want to do business in India make it easy to do that and if you want to invest in India make it easy to invest roll out the red carpet for entrepreneurs and investors foreign investors and of course there's so much more about the military and all that space Etc we need to we need to be a space Power I mean we're going to be left behind if we don't do that and also an AI power where is India in terms of AI and semiconductors I mean that that's the future so we need to be cognizant of these things AI Quantum Computing semiconductors all these new technologies and obviously the way Warfare is being conducted now in the 21st century drone Warfare Laing Munitions and so much more we need to learn the lessons of the Ukraine war I I could go on about this but if you tell ask me top two e the education system and yeah ease of doing business whether you're in a citizen or a foreigner yeah what's a good and a bad thing about this is that the good thing is that we are underutilized right now and we have everything in our control to take the steps and make it utiliz or optimize and just by doing that we'll probably grow so much and that's the bad part also because you're not doing it I think that's like again like a double Ed SW which you not doing it and now somehow being lucky enough to be in Mumbai and living the urban life in the last four five years uh I think a lot of growth and attention needs to be given to tier two and tier three oh I totally agree and we're not doing that that's where the under relation is because tier one people are going abroad tier one people have the access and money and capital and probably don't care much about we are very well off and we don't care much is what I I'm trying to generalize it here of course the exceptions but that's what I see like even my attitude has changed like in tier three when I I was I studied in the city called talur it's like in odisa 100 km from baneswar okay and I studied until 12th there so the exposure was nothing I didn't even see the E of exposure there and then suddenly I went to Delhi University for like college I studied economics honors there and I was like what's happening and I was just fortunate enough to have that confidence to you know stand out or try different things and then from there on the journey started but if I look back at my friends in talur or like you know Bal whatever I don't see them doing anything having any Ambitions or like even having the uh exposure to think these things you won't have ambition unless you have exposure you understand what's you see what's happening what others are doing then you're going to have ambition yes if you have the the quality in you so yeah exposure is extremely important we need to complete we need to empower the the folks in Tire two Tire three cities Villages rural areas Etc everybody should get the same exposure everybody should get the same opportunities we need to unleash their potential there's a tremendous amount of latent potential in India look today India is growing at what 6 7 8% per year despite all these problems we are going growing at this rate the fastest growing large economy in the World Imagine we start addressing these problems one by one and over the next 10 15 years we solve the problems imagine what we'll be able to do so I think we we should be optimistic we have so much potential in this country India has the potential to be gen genuinely the next big thing if we get things right by by let's say if we start getting things right now then by 2050 20160 we're going to be a whole different beast that's what that's the kind of potential we have in this country so I am extremely optimistic about this country despite the problems I'm very bullish about this this country the civilization I I believe we have the most talented people in the world the children that are being born today they are the next leaders of the world inventors all that we just need to empower them truly needs to happen correct correct correct awesome all right so to sum this up the last 5 minutes we discussed a lot of the problems that the Indian um we have in India and some solutions to it but what are you personally bullish on and I'm asking you from a perspective like somebody watching this a 24 year old 22y old can learn from this segment of bullishness and go into that direction to like start a business there or go into that industry because he knows that okay if this improves I'm going to be rich I'm going to be wealthy I'm going to give back to the society what are most bulon is the quality of the human capital in this country we have the most talented people we have always produced the ramanujan the Brahma guptas whoever you can think of we have produced the most brilliant people historically in the world and that genetic D that genetic thing is still there with us it's it runs in our blood see the quality of a nation is not determined by the by the 100% of the people it's it's determined by the 1% of the 1% okay and and the 1 person of the 1 person we have the best of that and most of them are going outside of India today so I'm bullish on the fact that most of them will still love their country they will go outside Get Talent get get get skills exposure they will become wealthy and when the time is right the feel is right we'll come back to the country and contribute and those who cannot go abroad or don't want to go abroad they will do whatever they can in this country I am bullish about on the about the quality of the human capital in this country and historically we have seen lots of ups and downs but we have always come back we always rebounded that's what 10,000 years of Indian history tells us so you must have heard of the Lindy effect if if if something is around for 100 days it's going to be around for 100 days more if a book is popular for 100 years it's going to be popular for another 100 years it's it's it's not a law or a rule of nature but it kind of works that way so we have been around for 10,000 years we're going to be around for 10,000 years more and we're going to we're going to overcome so I am very optimistic overall awesome all right thank you so much Mr abijit CH for this I had a lot of fun I had something else plannned but I think you went in a better Direction all right I had fun talking with you thank you so much for having me thank you thank you if you are bullish on the Indian economy and the Indian dream and if you want to contribute to the Indian economy then watch this podcast around Founders click on the eye button and check out our founder playlist to know more about entrepreneurship and what businesses work in India