Leadership Insights from Mark Batterson

I think what's really important when you think about long obedience, don't worry about the outcome, focus on the input. Like, you know, keep learning, keep growing, keep cultivating a holy curiosity towards life. When you experience failure, like, do a really good job of learning from it. Hey, Mark Batterson, great to have you on the Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast. Thanks, Craig. Great to be with you. Man, your friendship over the years has been a lot to me and a lot of people in our community already know you. For those that don't, I'm super excited to introduce them to you. You are a prolific author. How many books have you written? 25 is about to come out. 25, and the newest one is called A Million Little Miracles. I'll hold it up for anybody that's watching, and we'll talk about your book more. But on top of writing 25 books, you lead a lot of different types of organizations. Can you give us a brief overview of the different types of ministries and organizations you're leading, Mark? Yeah. Well, along with... Pastoring a church, we own and operate a coffee house on Capitol Hill. I've been named number one coffee house a few times here in D.C. We have a second-run movie theater that we operate on the hill as well. We have something called the D.C. Dream Center. We run about 64 programs out of there, Craig, just in a part of our city that needs a little extra love and a little extra help. And then we've got a city block not far from the capital that we're about 50 million into this real estate development project and essentially function functions as an event venue. But we're looking at opening a mixed use marketplace where you can work, eat, play and pray. So we're not going to get bored anytime soon, but having fun. the process. Fascinating. Well, that's a lot to oversee. So I'm going to kind of come back to that and dig into how in the world do you do all that. But first of all, I always like Mark to ask our guests about the first time that they saw themselves as a leader. And so I'm curious if it's like all the way back to third grade baseball team, or maybe you were in your 20s. When is the first time that you thought, oh my goodness, I might have a gift of leadership or maybe a passion for leadership? Yeah. Well, the- funniest thought just fired across my synapse. It's something I haven't thought in a long time. I remember being in the second grade and a kid on the playground getting picked on, and I wasn't having it. I think leadership is sometimes just stepping in and sticking up for those that maybe need a little extra love, a little extra help. Maybe that leadership expressed itself in the second grade looking out for a classmate. But, you know, I played basketball through college and probably learned as much in the locker room and on the basketball court as I did in the classroom. So I think, you know, whether it's athletics or recess, leadership comes in lots of sizes and shapes. So just for fun in the second grade, did you talk them down or take them down? Well, Craig, I don't hit the gym quite as much as you do, but I talked them down. Good, good. That's a lot better. We don't need violence. So that's good leadership in the second grade, Mark. Hey, we got to know each other like early in both of our leadership journeys. And so I would love for you to think back to you're in your 20s. And you're starting out, don't know nearly as much as you know now. Looking back, what are some of the leadership lessons that you learned then that might be valuable for other people that are just like on in season one of developing their own leadership gifts? Yeah, well, I'll keep it real. Shoot straight, please. But like a lot of threes on the Enneagram kind of achiever performer, always thinking about what's next. Craig, I remember because both of us, you know, we pastor very small churches to begin with. You know, we started with 19 people. And I remember thinking that, oh, when we maybe have 100 or 500 or 1,000. people like life is going to be good leadership is going to be great and uh i think one of the early lessons that i learned well maybe two of them uh that we overestimate what we can do in a year or two we underestimate i think what god can do in 10 or 20 so that's a good starting point i think leadership is about long obedience in the same direction you do the right thing day in and day out you play the long game uh but i think you have to enjoy the journey So I think I fell into this trap, this when then, like when we have this many people or when our budget is this number or when I get this accolade or that award. Man, that's a lie. You and I both know the grass is not greener on the other side. It's greener over the septic tank. You know, it's it's so, Craig, the way I come to think about it is. that the blessings of God will complicate your life. And what I mean by that is, like, when we got married, it complicated our wives'lives, right? When you have kids, it complicates your life. If you make more money, your taxes are more complicated. So I would say, God, complicate our lives, but in the way that it should be complicated. So, so many lessons in those early years, but those are a few of them. So, you know, when you're younger starting out, it's really hard to have kind of what I call like a long-term lens. You don't have as much time under your belt, and so everything feels urgent to kind of succeed quickly. You made a statement that I think is really important. One of the things someone told me early on about both ministry and leadership, they said ministry is a marathon, not a sprint. Same with leadership. It's a marathon, not a sprint. You said this long obedience in the same direction. That's a really important quote or phrase. I'd love for you just to put some skin on that for us. What does that mean? Maybe there's a 24-year-old just starting out and you're like, I want to do it all now. What do you mean by long obedience in the same direction? Yeah, well, I'll just cut to the chase. You know, I felt called to write when I was 22, but I didn't write that first book until 35. So those 13 years were hard. In fact, I despise my birthday, Craig, because it was an annual reminder of a dream deferred. And then I did. I finally leveraged that 35th birthday as a writing deadline. And that was the pivot point. That was kind of the key. But I didn't twiddle my thumbs. I read 3,000 books before I wrote one. So. I think what's really important when you think about long obedience, don't worry about the outcome. Focus on the input. Like, you know, keep learning, keep growing, keep cultivating a holy curiosity towards life. When you experience failure, like, do a really good job of learning from it. So it's less concerned about immediate outcome. outcomes and more focused on that long game. So, Craig, one of the things, and this might be a challenge for people who are listening, if you do not define success for yourself, you're probably going to adopt a readily available cultural definition. And that may or may not be the right definition. So, for me, I defined it years ago. Success is when those who know me best respect me most. And that's my wife. and my kids. And so even more important than writing books or leading organizations, I think it's this idea of who am I becoming? And am I going to like the guy that I look at in the mirror at the end of the game? Now, I'm probably not looking as good as I looked 20 years ago, but it's this idea that integrity and you keep stacking. You keep benchmarking. You keep growing because, you know, almost every leader these days is saying this, but you never want your gifts to take you where your character can't sustain you. And so I think that focal point is really important in the leadership journey. I think that's really, really wise advice. And you said something just a couple of minutes back that I'm going, wait a minute. You read 3,000 books before you wrote a single book. Is that a real number or is that a pastoral number? It's a real number. Okay. So I believe it's a real number. So I want you to talk to me about that because we know that leaders are learners. How important is it and why? And how do you read that many books? Well, Craig, remember, I was pastoring 19 people, so I had some time on my hands. And, you know, the average person spends two hours and 22 minutes on social media. Well. This is way back in the 20th century. I didn't have all of the distractions that we have. Do you know how many books you can read in two hours and 22 minutes a day? So I knew that, well, and I started pastoring at 26, so I had very little life experience. And I read that the average author put about two years of life experience into a book. Listen, some books are worth more than that. Some books are worth less. But I remember thinking, if I read 250 books this year, I'll gain 500 years of life experience, but I'll only be one year older. And so that's kind of part of what motivated me. And then the other thing I would say is, you know, we have a strong hand and a weak hand. Strong hand kind of represents those gifts and weak hands, the things that we're not naturally good at. And we think that we're going to excel at the place of giftedness, but there's this powerful idea in the scripture that God's power is made perfect in weakness. So when I was 22, I took an aptitude assessment that showed a low aptitude for writing. In other words, whatever you do, don't write books. Don't inflict that on the world. So, Craig, I think part of the motivation was. I'm going to have to teach myself how to write. And so I'm going to not just read, but reverse engineer these books. And ended up probably reverse engineering a few more than I wanted to before that first book came out. So can you kind of get gut level practical for me, Mark? Because I've got some kind of hacks and tricks. If you're reading a book, how do you gut it? How do you get the, if you're reading 250 a year. You're probably not going real, real slow. What do you do to dig the best out of it? Give us some practical tips. I love it. And I want to flip it and hear what you do. But if I was to pull any of the books off of my shelf, there are five levels. One, and I would never read a book without a pen in hand. I think it was Benjamin Franklin that said the shortest pencil is longer than the longest memory. So level one is underline. Level two is an asterisk. Level three, I circled it on the page. Level four, and now it's getting good, upper dog ear. And level five, lower dog ear. So I can pull a book off the shelf. And if I want the best of the best, those lower dog ears, it's going to take me a couple of minutes to re-access. So what's funny is I have a really bad verbatim memory. but I have a tremendous memory for where I read something. I can even remember about where it was in the book. Something I read 17 years ago. It's weird, but that's kind of my-You've got visual recall. And so what we're going to do is I'm going to have our team just go through those things because I can't say them back. And I don't want to ask you to repeat them four times while someone's driving and can't write them down and put it in a phone. So we're going to put those in the leader guide. So we've got Mark Batterson's hack. on how do you remember where something is. And that's super important because you can read or listen to books and it could be a waste of time or it can be your most valuable time invested. And for me, I would say at least 50% of the way I think about leadership is a reflection of what I've learned from others. And probably the other 50% or so has been just kind of on the job training in the moment. So that's super helpful. And I do want to talk more about... your book in a minute. If you were going to pick, let's say, one, two, three leadership books that you say are must-reads out of the probably 10,000 you've read now, after all these years, or maybe more, what comes to mind first as must-read leadership books? Yeah, and that's a hard question because I love so many books. But do you remember that Max Dupree book? Leadership is an Art from a long, long time ago. I probably read it in seminary in the 90s. I don't know if I read that. I don't remember reading that one. He said that the first job of a leader is to define reality. The last job. is to say thank you. And in between, it's to serve other people. I remember hearing that, reading that in that book all of those years ago and thinking that single sentence or definition was worth the whole book. So Leadership is an Art by Max Dupree. I would say there's this oldie but goodie, Geeks and Geezers, that talks about being a first-class noticer that I think is really important. And then, you know, I'm going to look back on this interview, Craig, and I'm going to think of three books that I like even better. But I would go to Emotional Intelligence, the Daniel Goleman book. I put fun little anecdote. I was speaking at a gathering in the UK with Anglican pastors a few years ago. And and right right before me was the archbishop, Archbishop of Canterbury, which was a little intimidating. Um. But he got up and he said something I'll never forget. He said, emotional intelligence is a wonderful adjunct faculty to the gifts of the spirit. And I'm like, what did you just say? It took me a second to figure it out. But I think what he was saying is whatever gift you're exercising, and I believe it's a gift that God's given to you. You have to exercise it with that emotional intelligence, which at the heart of that, of course, is empathy that everyone's fighting a battle I know nothing about. Everyone's my superior in some way, and that I learned of them. So that kind of framework and that emotional intelligence, I think, is really important, especially in the cultural moment that we find ourselves in. Isn't that the truth? We have to be... We have to manage our emotions really, really well. We have to have empathy. We have to listen. We have to be others-focused. If we're not, we're going to be fighting all the time. And so I like that. I want to hear, Mark, so you're leading a church. That's complicated. You're writing about 1.5 books a year, it sounds like. And you're overseeing five different organizations, some for-profit, some non-for-profit. You're scaling up an organization. You've got to have a heck of a leadership structure around you. Can you tell me what does it look like? Who do you work with? What types of roles do you work with? How do you juggle so many different types of organizations and still play basketball? Well, after two ACL tears, I'm not fit playing basketball as much, Craig. But I think, you know, I only communicate. half of the weekends. So I'm at 26 a year. And for me, it's about 25 hours of prep, give or take, for every message I would communicate. Are you ballpark same? I would be about probably 15 hours a message. Okay. Yep. So the weeks that I'm not communicating, I'm leveraging that 25 hours for some other priorities. So it may be... writing. And it may be, hey, I'm focused on some of our, I just, I kind of fell in love with real estate. We never thought we would own property and we own quite a bit of it now. So there are weeks that I'm just, I'm focused on that piece of the puzzle. Craig, part of it is all of us are wired a little differently. What one of... one of my favorites, I think every leader needs about five quotes in their back pocket that they pull out all the time. One of mine is in Oswald Chambers, let God be as original with others as he was with you. So just for the record, you're on about 17 quotes already just for this podcast. So keep going. So I, you know, I, I realized that each of us is kind of a data point of one, but the way that I'm wired is I'm easily bored. And so what happens is. I do a lot of ideation, but then we've got some incredible eight executors and some people on the that have different letters on the Myers Briggs that have a different working genius that really are great at at taking things from from maybe A, B or C to X, Y, Z. OK, so so let me let me rapid fire some questions. What? are you? Are you a content producer who leads? Are you a leader who writes content? What are you? Yeah, I'm a content producer who leads. I'm more of an author-pastor than a pastor-author. And so you have to have a certain... type of people around you. Can you tell me about who do you work with and through? What is it? Do you have three direct reports or the equivalent of, or do you have five? What does, what structure look like for you? I have five currently, but I'm about to go to three. Okay. We're going to, running your offense through great people is so critical. How do you, how do you work through them? Do you meet with all of them once a week? Do you have a touch base? What does that look like? I want to help our community. When you're overseeing different types of organizations that involve real estate, pastoral care, writing, producing, content, brand, all that stuff, how do you work through those people? Craig, would it be okay if I back up just one step? Of course. Calendar. So I have meeting days. Tuesday is a wall-to-wall meeting day, but as a content producer, that buys me Wednesday and Friday. where I'm free and clear. And by the way, on those days in the middle of it, I'm probably taking a nap or I'm going for a run or I'm hitting the gym because those are ways that my brain ideates. And those are days I don't have to worry about meetings with anybody. So organizing calendar is, I think, the starting point. On those meeting days, I'm just making sure that our team has clear direction. And I'm not a micromanager. You can't be. No. So I think it's about setting objectives and then, in a sense, letting the team kind of determine how to get there. I'm trying to think of a recent example of that. But while you're thinking of that, let me kind of wrap back to what you're saying, because I think it's really important. And you've said more than you probably think you've said. So you're talking about. Even when you absorb content, how you read, how you think, how you design, and how you find your way back to it, not everybody's like that. And you said, you know, you can go 15 years to a book you've read and probably know it's on the right-hand page toward the end of the book at the top section because that's how your brain thinks. I have, I can't do that, but I have similar weird things. I can read a whole document, walk away, and for a very short period of time. almost quote it word for word. And then the next day, I don't even remember the document. And so that's how I'm wired. Everyone is different. And what you said is really important. You said, you know, it kind of starts with a calendar. And then I like this, you've got a day, that's a meeting day, and you have to step back and refresh in it. And then you've got content days blocked off. What I want to say to our leaders is you have to learn how you're wired. And then, you know, if you're just starting off, you can't necessarily design everything around your schedule, because you haven't gotten that. to that point yet. But the longer you lead and kind of the higher you rise, the more you have the freedom to creatively design your time around the rhythms that work best for you. And you had two content days. I'm guessing you don't put anything on those days. Is that true or not true? Yeah, nothing. Nothing. And the reason is why? Because I'd rather have one God idea than a thousand good ideas. And because you can't, if you're studying for two hours and someone breaks your momentum. it's gone. It doesn't come back. And so like today I'm doing this with you and the rest of the day I have no more content because my rhythm is broken and I can't go back and write. So I'm going to do more videos, more meetings. And then we're going to wrap and plan next week because of the rhythms of the way we're designed. So all that to say to our leaders is you've got to figure out how you work, how you think, when you're most productive, when you work through people. For us, we start on Monday morning. First thing, 8 a.m. with top leaders. Why? Because we're setting the direction for the week. Other people, that's not going to work for the rhythm. So for our leaders, I want you to really think about who you have to work through when you cast vision, when you hold people accountable, when you hold yourself accountable, when you bring your team in to consult you, when you make decisions, all that kind of stuff. Any more things about your calendar, your scheduling that's weird, creative? unique to you. Yeah, I want to share one little maxim. Do the math. I kind of have a guilt complex like a lot of leaders because more people ask to meet with me than I'm able to meet with. And a couple of years ago, I realized I have to Jedi mind trick myself, Craig, that if we meet one-on-one for an hour, It's one hour times one. Now, the difference is actually the caveat is I would immediately think about the hundreds of thousands of people that you lead and influence. So I wouldn't see it as one. I would do the math and do a multiplier. So if I'm meeting with leaders, I don't see it as 10 leaders. I'm thinking about I'm doing the math and, oh, this meeting is really important because it's going to influence indirectly more people. As it relates to the study piece, sometimes I say no to one person because take a half-hour message times the number of people that hear it real-time multiplied by the number of people that on demand might download it on YouTube or anywhere else. And I recognize it. The early days with 20 people, Craig. If it was a bad message, I'm only wasting 20 people times 30 minutes or 10 hours of collective time. These days, in fact, no, I'm going to flip it. I'm guessing that every message you preach, if you did the math, would equal many, many years, maybe decades. So then I'm now Jedi mind-tricking myself that I'm so sorry I can't meet with you one-on-one because because this 30-minute kind of group counseling, this 30-minute message is going to be really critical for thousands of people. So I hope that's meaningful to someone, but I kind of have to almost trick myself into prioritizing the things that I'm called to do. So I think this is important, Mark, because the leaders in this community, they're good people, they care about people. The pastors in this community, they want to be good pastors. And so It's really, really hard when someone wants to meet because you do care about them. It's really hard to say no. And to be really effective, there are times where you do have to say no to one to say yes to more. And that almost sounds unloving or selfish or uncaring. And it can be if you're entitled and arrogant, like I don't meet with anybody, that's dangerous. And then I do, I want to say this too, and I think you would agree. Let's say you do get to where you do really do oversee a lot. You have a lot of responsibility. And then you say, well, I never meet with people. It was Andy Stanley who said, I'm going to do for one what I wish I could do for all. Symbolically, I think it's ridiculously important for us to always do the whatever it is. If it's to meet with one new employee a month, or if it's to do still do one hospital visit a week, or if it's still to do. one funeral a month or one a year or whatever, that symbolically, I think we should always still be engaged in the things that matter to our hearts. But it is not wrong nor unwise to have to say no to some things to say yes to something bigger. Comment and correct me. What do you think? Spot on. Yeah, I think, you know, I could at this point just write books, Craig, but I would lose touch. And you lose heart. You lose heart. Yeah. I think there's something about, I just think once you reach the highest level of leadership in the kingdom of God, it gives you the right to relinquish your rights and wash feet. This is the example that Jesus set. And so I never want to be above anything. And I'll occasionally meet with a kid in the youth group or, you know, just to kind of, you want to keep your. ear to the ground. But I would say one more thing. There was a moment years ago where pastoring a growing church, writing books, and I'm on the road, kind of like we used to do those book tours, and we're here, there, and everywhere. And my wife said to me, Mark, this is not what I signed up for. And it was kind of one of those tough moments. And I made a decision that I'm not going to do more than 12 overnight speaking trips a year. And then I dialed it back to six because I feel like as leaders, we've got to figure out where's the ROI, what's most important. But if you don't make those pre-decisions, good luck. You know, I even had the stewardship team that I'm accountable to. Tell me, I said, tell me that I cannot serve on more than three boards concurrently. Why? Because I'm terrible at saying no. So I need boundaries that are almost these default settings. So that my energy isn't spent in all of those different directions. So tell me about your stewardship accountability team. What's that look like? Yeah, well, we are pretty staff-led, pastor-led church. But I think it's critical in those instances where you have certain checks and balances. And so our stewardship team gives financial oversight and dictates. how I do what I do. And, you know, I, wow, I, there are a lot of leaders failing and falling. I'm stating the obvious. And I think you've got to have people in your life that can speak the truth and love and, and that you're processing hard things with. So You know, they they I'm grateful because they actually encouraged me to use all of my vacation days, which I think you owe it to yourself and owe it to whatever organization you lead to be away. So you have people in your life that have the power to stop you from you. Yes. Yep. Yep. And and I would add to that, Craig. And for me, it's less about the formalities. I would say one of the most significant people in my life is an 82-year-old spiritual father. He's been there, done that. Someone that, listen, he has walked me back from the edge of the cliff many times and helped me not just as a pastor and leader, but I think as a parent. And as someone that just, I'm just so grateful for his. his sight lines and his influence in my life, I think it's really, really important. What a gift to have someone in your life that you can default to. So can you tell me a little bit about that relationship? Did you ask him to be a mentor? Did you have formal meetings? A lot of people want to know, how do I find somebody like that? How do they do it? Yeah, well, we had just moved to the DC area. And, uh, So Laura and I were like 24 and 22, and we were coming off of a failed church plant in Chicago, which was kind of discouraging and a little embarrassing. And our first Thanksgiving, Dick and Ruth both, who were friends with Laura's pastor, with Laura's parents, invited us over for a Thanksgiving dinner. And I remember two things. I remember Ruth's apple pie, which was amazing. And I remember playing Trivial Pursuit. with Dick and thinking, this guy has more trivial knowledge than anybody I've ever met. I want to hang around this guy. And long story short, we struck up a friendship. But I took more of the initiative, Craig. Can I go there with you or hang out with you? And so I was just intentional. I need to be around people. that are older and wiser in the same way. And I'll just, I hope this, I hope it's okay for me to say this. One reason why I love, and we don't get as much time as I would love to have, but I love hanging out with the Craig Groeschel or I love hanging out with a Bob Goff or people that make me dream a little bit bigger, that stretch my vision. And same thing with the Dick Foe. I just need someone who it's going to be okay. In fact, during COVID, great example, you know, I was ready to hit the panic button. We couldn't gather as a church for a year and two weeks because of D.C. government mandate. And I said, help me out. He said, hey, you should have been here in 1968. Yeah. Well, it shows that you have people in your life like that. And I just want to say to our community, I think a lot of people look for like a one-size-fits-all mentor. And what I would suggest is that you look for more like. four, five, six, or seven different people that you look to. For example, Mark, you're probably the same way. I have people that I talk to about health and nutrition, and we talk supplements, exercise, diet, sleep, all this kind of stuff. I have people that I talk to about investing and wisely managing the wealth with generosity and strategy and such. I have people that it's all organizational leadership. I have a couple that is marriage and parenting. And so I would suggest you look for... targeted people to learn from. And any area you want to grow, you want to have at least one or two people you look to. I'm assuming you're kind of in a similar vein. Yeah, because very seldom would you find people with expertise in all of those cross-disciplines. The other thing I would say is that probably different people for different seasons. Exactly. You know, there was a season where I was laser focused on laser. How do I become a better communicator? Well, the good news there is you don't even necessarily need FaceTime. I'm going to watch a Craig Groeschel message or any of my favorite communicators, and I'm going to spend time reverse engineering it. Distant mentors. Exactly. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yeah. So I want to dig into something because I think you're one of the best, both in writing and living this out. In the book, Win the Day, you talk about the habits that are so important. And we all know. that's your habits make or break you. I'd like to know. kind of like what I'd call leadership rhythm habits. What are the key ingredients in a normal week for you that may seem really small that then bring exponential results? Yeah, I'll pull one out of the hat. You know, my wife, Laura, has had two bouts with cancer since 2017. And she's doing great. I mean, she's on the other side, rang the bell. Just got a clean bill of health four years out from the last bout. But that will reorder your world in a hurry. By the way, just in case, because there's probably someone listening that got a recent diagnosis. Let me just share one little thing. When Laura got that first cancer diagnosis, she read a poem that posed the question. And the question was this. What have you come to teach me? So we decided to take a learning posture. And as hard as that is with cancer, and I would say that we have learned and grown more in the last seven years than all the years before that in our marriage. But one of the things that we do, Craig, well, we did a couple of things. One, we did start hitting comedy clubs. because when I ask you for habits, hitting comedy clubs was not on the top 100 things I thought you were going to say. So go on. We are so intentional about humor and comedy and laughing together that that's pretty random. But what we do, our Sabbath, and I would advocate for this, whether you have kind of a religious faith or you don't. Like... the most elite athletes recovery. What they're best at is rest and recovery. So I think we have an, a weekly Sabbath Sunday sundown to Monday sundown. And one of the things that we do each week is we share our gratitude journal with each other. And that has been such a powerful habit that it just gratitude begets gratitude. And, uh, and Laura often has twice as many as I have. She's a little bit better at it than I am, but occasionally, uh, occasionally she'll write in that gratitude, uh, journal, Craig, she'll just say, I'm still here and it gets me after two bouts with cancer. Like there, there's so much to be grateful for. So I think finding things that really rejuvenate and renew, um, you know, I have annual, I kind of do an annual adventure, an annual challenge. My oldest son loves to bike. And so I've done a couple of bike centuries the last few years. And so finding outlets, can I have a little bit of fun with pastors for a second? I know that's a subset of your audience. I know some pastors, you know, let's be honest, their messages are kind of boring. And and What I would say in love is you don't need to get a message. You need to get a life. You need a life where you're living the adventure and doing things that get some adrenaline going through your blood. And your messages will become naturally far more interesting and enjoyable. So I hope I didn't step on too many toes here. Here's what's interesting, Mark. I, uh, I... stumbled upon a counselor that I was really blessed to work with because his breadth and experience has been, he works with people that have experience well beyond mine. And after working with him, I was the first kind of pastor that he worked with. And he is a person of faith. He said, hey, if any of your friends, you know, he felt kind of called to explore more about that. So now I've sent him too many to count. in both pastoral names that a lot of this community would know, and then just other leaders that a lot of this community would know. And so he's working with a lot of my friends. And so he would never tell me anything about them, but I was asking, hey, what are you learning? And the number one thing they all say is the very same thing he said to me is, you got to go out and for most, especially for men, and because my friends are men, I don't know what he'd say to women, but to the men, you have to find something that's adrenaline-fueled, engaging. disconnects your mind. And that was the number one thing he said to me. And I have found that I kind of thought like, don't you have another play? You're going to tell something different. And it just really, really is important to have something that disconnects your mind. And then on the gratitude thing, that is ridiculously important. On my journal, I write GR for gratitude, and I put a square over it. And so in my journal, I can look at the same day last year, the same day the year before, it's kind of got five years on top of each other. And every time I've got stacks of GRs for something I'm grateful for, it's both God-honoring, it's renewing, it's refreshing. And I just want to compliment you because you've done it well, man. And what I've noticed about you that people that don't know you wouldn't know is that you have way more opportunities that most people would never believe you say no to because you're trying to say yes to the fewer things that matter most. And I admire that about you. In fact, you've turned me down before, which hurt my feelings for the first 30 seconds, but then I respect the fact that you're really strategic and focused on what you do. And I want to just talk about your book for a minute, A Million Little Miracles, subtitled Rediscover the God Who is Bigger Than Big, Closer Than Close, and Gooder Than Good. That last little phrase kind of reflects the part you probably shouldn't be a writer, gooder than good, right? I had to convince the editors. I like it. I like it. So tell us about the book, Mark. Yeah. Well, Albert Einstein said there are only two ways to live your life. One is as if nothing is a miracle, and the other is as if everything is. So, Craig, I'm cut from the cloth. I've experienced some miracles. I had severe asthma for 40 years. I don't anymore. Pray to bold prayer. And I won't get into that story, but actually ran the Chicago Marathon to celebrate that healing miracle. I haven't touched an inhaler from July 2nd, 2016 until today. So my marathon runner, Leanne, I call her Power Pack, she is nodding so big. She hasn't nodded anything good you said, but on the marathon, she's cheering you down. So keep going. I love it. I love it. I think when I say miracles, people tend to think of the anomaly or the epiphany or the exception to the rule. But what's funny is this book is the exact opposite of that. It's about everyday miracles that, hey, right now we're on a planet that's spinning at a thousand miles per hour, speeding through space at 67,000 miles per hour. We don't even get dizzy. Even on a day you didn't get much done, you did travel 1.6 million miles through space. But here's the thing. No one at the end of the day, you know, kneels next to their bed and says, Lord, thanks for keeping us in orbit. We don't pray that way because we tend to take constants for granted. And so I would say there are a million little miracles hiding in plain sight. And this book is about opening our eyes to those everyday miracles. So to our community, if you've never read a Mark Batterson book, he is a New York Times bestseller. Books are fantastic. Um. in a pit with a lion on a snowy day, the prayer circle, a couple that my family quotes all the time. And Amy will not let me, I tend to say really big statements like she's the best, he's the greatest, whatever. So I'm not going to say you are the most researched author out there. There are some Harvard guys that that's all they do that are as good. But you are in the top category of people. that footnote with amazing resources. I like that. You're so well-read and you're so smart. You have a gift of both storytelling, bringing scripture and spiritual things to life, but in a way that's accessible to someone who may not be, they may just be a seeker or could be someone who's been a person of faith for a long time. So I want to give away five of these books. If you are not on YouTube, hop over to YouTube and type in the comment section. Let's do this. Type in there, I need a miracle. That'll be great. Just type in, I need a miracle. And then our team will select five of those and we'll send you Mark Batterson's newest book, A Million Little Miracles. I know some of our listeners may have heard you for the first time. If they want to find out more, like, hey, this guy in DC, how do they find out more about you, Mark? Yeah, they can find me at markbatterson.com. And... and then I'm on, I'm on a few social media outlets. Mark Batterson, uh, would love to connect that way. Um, and, uh, Craig, what a joy to, I feel like we got to catch up a little bit just by being on the podcast together. Well, my favorite part of the whole thing is that your great habit is going to comedy clubs. So that's my takeaway. There you go. I love it. So, hey, thanks for your friendship. And I celebrate your leadership. You have a gift. And I love the fact that you're really unique. You know your lane. You stay in your lane. You're confident in your lane. You're not trying to be someone else. You've got very unique gifts. And so I want to say that to all of our leaders, that God knew what he was doing when he made you. He gave you very unique gifts to do the exact calling and purpose that is before you. Whatever you're doing today is important. It may not feel big, but what you do in the small things leads to bigger things. And so lead with integrity. lead with passion, and God will open up more doors to do more things. So to our audience, thank you for being a part. I'd love it if you'd share on social media. If you want more information on Mark or even his reading tips, go to life.church slash leadership podcast, and we'll send you the leader guide. We'll have that information in there. And guess what, man? We all got a little bit better today thanks to Mark, and that's really good news because everyone wins when the leader gets better.

Hey, Mark Batterson, great to have you on the Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast. Thanks, Craig. Great to be with you. Man, your friendship over the years has been a lot to me and a lot of people in our community already know you. For those that don't, I'm super excited to introduce them to you.

You are a prolific author. How many books have you written? 25 is about to come out.

25, and the newest one is called A Million Little Miracles. I'll hold it up for anybody that's watching, and we'll talk about your book more. But on top of writing 25 books, you lead a lot of different types of organizations.

Can you give us a brief overview of the different types of ministries and organizations you're leading, Mark? Yeah. Well, along with...

Pastoring a church, we own and operate a coffee house on Capitol Hill. I've been named number one coffee house a few times here in D.C. We have a second-run movie theater that we operate on the hill as well. We have something called the D.C. Dream Center.

We run about 64 programs out of there, Craig, just in a part of our city that needs a little extra love and a little extra help. And then we've got a city block not far from the capital that we're about 50 million into this real estate development project and essentially function functions as an event venue. But we're looking at opening a mixed use marketplace where you can work, eat, play and pray. So we're not going to get bored anytime soon, but having fun. the process.

Fascinating. Well, that's a lot to oversee. So I'm going to kind of come back to that and dig into how in the world do you do all that. But first of all, I always like Mark to ask our guests about the first time that they saw themselves as a leader.

And so I'm curious if it's like all the way back to third grade baseball team, or maybe you were in your 20s. When is the first time that you thought, oh my goodness, I might have a gift of leadership or maybe a passion for leadership? Yeah.

Well, the- funniest thought just fired across my synapse. It's something I haven't thought in a long time. I remember being in the second grade and a kid on the playground getting picked on, and I wasn't having it. I think leadership is sometimes just stepping in and sticking up for those that maybe need a little extra love, a little extra help. Maybe that leadership expressed itself in the second grade looking out for a classmate.

But, you know, I played basketball through college and probably learned as much in the locker room and on the basketball court as I did in the classroom. So I think, you know, whether it's athletics or recess, leadership comes in lots of sizes and shapes. So just for fun in the second grade, did you talk them down or take them down? Well, Craig, I don't hit the gym quite as much as you do, but I talked them down. Good, good.

That's a lot better. We don't need violence. So that's good leadership in the second grade, Mark. Hey, we got to know each other like early in both of our leadership journeys.

And so I would love for you to think back to you're in your 20s. And you're starting out, don't know nearly as much as you know now. Looking back, what are some of the leadership lessons that you learned then that might be valuable for other people that are just like on in season one of developing their own leadership gifts? Yeah, well, I'll keep it real.

Shoot straight, please. But like a lot of threes on the Enneagram kind of achiever performer, always thinking about what's next. Craig, I remember because both of us, you know, we pastor very small churches to begin with.

You know, we started with 19 people. And I remember thinking that, oh, when we maybe have 100 or 500 or 1,000. people like life is going to be good leadership is going to be great and uh i think one of the early lessons that i learned well maybe two of them uh that we overestimate what we can do in a year or two we underestimate i think what god can do in 10 or 20 so that's a good starting point i think leadership is about long obedience in the same direction you do the right thing day in and day out you play the long game uh but i think you have to enjoy the journey So I think I fell into this trap, this when then, like when we have this many people or when our budget is this number or when I get this accolade or that award.

Man, that's a lie. You and I both know the grass is not greener on the other side. It's greener over the septic tank. You know, it's it's so, Craig, the way I come to think about it is. that the blessings of God will complicate your life. And what I mean by that is, like, when we got married, it complicated our wives'lives, right?

When you have kids, it complicates your life. If you make more money, your taxes are more complicated. So I would say, God, complicate our lives, but in the way that it should be complicated.

So, so many lessons in those early years, but those are a few of them. So, you know, when you're younger starting out, it's really hard to have kind of what I call like a long-term lens. You don't have as much time under your belt, and so everything feels urgent to kind of succeed quickly.

You made a statement that I think is really important. One of the things someone told me early on about both ministry and leadership, they said ministry is a marathon, not a sprint. Same with leadership.

It's a marathon, not a sprint. You said this long obedience in the same direction. That's a really important quote or phrase. I'd love for you just to put some skin on that for us. What does that mean?

Maybe there's a 24-year-old just starting out and you're like, I want to do it all now. What do you mean by long obedience in the same direction? Yeah, well, I'll just cut to the chase. You know, I felt called to write when I was 22, but I didn't write that first book until 35. So those 13 years were hard. In fact, I despise my birthday, Craig, because it was an annual reminder of a dream deferred.

And then I did. I finally leveraged that 35th birthday as a writing deadline. And that was the pivot point.

That was kind of the key. But I didn't twiddle my thumbs. I read 3,000 books before I wrote one. So. I think what's really important when you think about long obedience, don't worry about the outcome.

Focus on the input. Like, you know, keep learning, keep growing, keep cultivating a holy curiosity towards life. When you experience failure, like, do a really good job of learning from it. So it's less concerned about immediate outcome. outcomes and more focused on that long game.

So, Craig, one of the things, and this might be a challenge for people who are listening, if you do not define success for yourself, you're probably going to adopt a readily available cultural definition. And that may or may not be the right definition. So, for me, I defined it years ago.

Success is when those who know me best respect me most. And that's my wife. and my kids.

And so even more important than writing books or leading organizations, I think it's this idea of who am I becoming? And am I going to like the guy that I look at in the mirror at the end of the game? Now, I'm probably not looking as good as I looked 20 years ago, but it's this idea that integrity and you keep stacking.

You keep benchmarking. You keep growing because, you know, almost every leader these days is saying this, but you never want your gifts to take you where your character can't sustain you. And so I think that focal point is really important in the leadership journey.

I think that's really, really wise advice. And you said something just a couple of minutes back that I'm going, wait a minute. You read 3,000 books before you wrote a single book. Is that a real number or is that a pastoral number? It's a real number.

Okay. So I believe it's a real number. So I want you to talk to me about that because we know that leaders are learners. How important is it and why? And how do you read that many books?

Well, Craig, remember, I was pastoring 19 people, so I had some time on my hands. And, you know, the average person spends two hours and 22 minutes on social media. Well.

This is way back in the 20th century. I didn't have all of the distractions that we have. Do you know how many books you can read in two hours and 22 minutes a day?

So I knew that, well, and I started pastoring at 26, so I had very little life experience. And I read that the average author put about two years of life experience into a book. Listen, some books are worth more than that. Some books are worth less. But I remember thinking, if I read 250 books this year, I'll gain 500 years of life experience, but I'll only be one year older.

And so that's kind of part of what motivated me. And then the other thing I would say is, you know, we have a strong hand and a weak hand. Strong hand kind of represents those gifts and weak hands, the things that we're not naturally good at. And we think that we're going to excel at the place of giftedness, but there's this powerful idea in the scripture that God's power is made perfect in weakness.

So when I was 22, I took an aptitude assessment that showed a low aptitude for writing. In other words, whatever you do, don't write books. Don't inflict that on the world.

So, Craig, I think part of the motivation was. I'm going to have to teach myself how to write. And so I'm going to not just read, but reverse engineer these books.

And ended up probably reverse engineering a few more than I wanted to before that first book came out. So can you kind of get gut level practical for me, Mark? Because I've got some kind of hacks and tricks.

If you're reading a book, how do you gut it? How do you get the, if you're reading 250 a year. You're probably not going real, real slow. What do you do to dig the best out of it? Give us some practical tips.

I love it. And I want to flip it and hear what you do. But if I was to pull any of the books off of my shelf, there are five levels.

One, and I would never read a book without a pen in hand. I think it was Benjamin Franklin that said the shortest pencil is longer than the longest memory. So level one is underline.

Level two is an asterisk. Level three, I circled it on the page. Level four, and now it's getting good, upper dog ear.

And level five, lower dog ear. So I can pull a book off the shelf. And if I want the best of the best, those lower dog ears, it's going to take me a couple of minutes to re-access.

So what's funny is I have a really bad verbatim memory. but I have a tremendous memory for where I read something. I can even remember about where it was in the book. Something I read 17 years ago. It's weird, but that's kind of my-You've got visual recall.

And so what we're going to do is I'm going to have our team just go through those things because I can't say them back. And I don't want to ask you to repeat them four times while someone's driving and can't write them down and put it in a phone. So we're going to put those in the leader guide. So we've got Mark Batterson's hack.

on how do you remember where something is. And that's super important because you can read or listen to books and it could be a waste of time or it can be your most valuable time invested. And for me, I would say at least 50% of the way I think about leadership is a reflection of what I've learned from others.

And probably the other 50% or so has been just kind of on the job training in the moment. So that's super helpful. And I do want to talk more about...

your book in a minute. If you were going to pick, let's say, one, two, three leadership books that you say are must-reads out of the probably 10,000 you've read now, after all these years, or maybe more, what comes to mind first as must-read leadership books? Yeah, and that's a hard question because I love so many books. But do you remember that Max Dupree book?

Leadership is an Art from a long, long time ago. I probably read it in seminary in the 90s. I don't know if I read that.

I don't remember reading that one. He said that the first job of a leader is to define reality. The last job.

is to say thank you. And in between, it's to serve other people. I remember hearing that, reading that in that book all of those years ago and thinking that single sentence or definition was worth the whole book.

So Leadership is an Art by Max Dupree. I would say there's this oldie but goodie, Geeks and Geezers, that talks about being a first-class noticer that I think is really important. And then, you know, I'm going to look back on this interview, Craig, and I'm going to think of three books that I like even better.

But I would go to Emotional Intelligence, the Daniel Goleman book. I put fun little anecdote. I was speaking at a gathering in the UK with Anglican pastors a few years ago.

And and right right before me was the archbishop, Archbishop of Canterbury, which was a little intimidating. Um. But he got up and he said something I'll never forget. He said, emotional intelligence is a wonderful adjunct faculty to the gifts of the spirit.

And I'm like, what did you just say? It took me a second to figure it out. But I think what he was saying is whatever gift you're exercising, and I believe it's a gift that God's given to you.

You have to exercise it with that emotional intelligence, which at the heart of that, of course, is empathy that everyone's fighting a battle I know nothing about. Everyone's my superior in some way, and that I learned of them. So that kind of framework and that emotional intelligence, I think, is really important, especially in the cultural moment that we find ourselves in.

Isn't that the truth? We have to be... We have to manage our emotions really, really well. We have to have empathy.

We have to listen. We have to be others-focused. If we're not, we're going to be fighting all the time.

And so I like that. I want to hear, Mark, so you're leading a church. That's complicated. You're writing about 1.5 books a year, it sounds like. And you're overseeing five different organizations, some for-profit, some non-for-profit.

You're scaling up an organization. You've got to have a heck of a leadership structure around you. Can you tell me what does it look like?

Who do you work with? What types of roles do you work with? How do you juggle so many different types of organizations and still play basketball? Well, after two ACL tears, I'm not fit playing basketball as much, Craig. But I think, you know, I only communicate.

half of the weekends. So I'm at 26 a year. And for me, it's about 25 hours of prep, give or take, for every message I would communicate. Are you ballpark same?

I would be about probably 15 hours a message. Okay. Yep.

So the weeks that I'm not communicating, I'm leveraging that 25 hours for some other priorities. So it may be... writing.

And it may be, hey, I'm focused on some of our, I just, I kind of fell in love with real estate. We never thought we would own property and we own quite a bit of it now. So there are weeks that I'm just, I'm focused on that piece of the puzzle. Craig, part of it is all of us are wired a little differently.

What one of... one of my favorites, I think every leader needs about five quotes in their back pocket that they pull out all the time. One of mine is in Oswald Chambers, let God be as original with others as he was with you.

So just for the record, you're on about 17 quotes already just for this podcast. So keep going. So I, you know, I, I realized that each of us is kind of a data point of one, but the way that I'm wired is I'm easily bored. And so what happens is. I do a lot of ideation, but then we've got some incredible eight executors and some people on the that have different letters on the Myers Briggs that have a different working genius that really are great at at taking things from from maybe A, B or C to X, Y, Z. OK, so so let me let me rapid fire some questions.

What? are you? Are you a content producer who leads?

Are you a leader who writes content? What are you? Yeah, I'm a content producer who leads. I'm more of an author-pastor than a pastor-author.

And so you have to have a certain... type of people around you. Can you tell me about who do you work with and through? What is it?

Do you have three direct reports or the equivalent of, or do you have five? What does, what structure look like for you? I have five currently, but I'm about to go to three. Okay.

We're going to, running your offense through great people is so critical. How do you, how do you work through them? Do you meet with all of them once a week?

Do you have a touch base? What does that look like? I want to help our community.

When you're overseeing different types of organizations that involve real estate, pastoral care, writing, producing, content, brand, all that stuff, how do you work through those people? Craig, would it be okay if I back up just one step? Of course.

Calendar. So I have meeting days. Tuesday is a wall-to-wall meeting day, but as a content producer, that buys me Wednesday and Friday.

where I'm free and clear. And by the way, on those days in the middle of it, I'm probably taking a nap or I'm going for a run or I'm hitting the gym because those are ways that my brain ideates. And those are days I don't have to worry about meetings with anybody. So organizing calendar is, I think, the starting point. On those meeting days, I'm just making sure that our team has clear direction.

And I'm not a micromanager. You can't be. No. So I think it's about setting objectives and then, in a sense, letting the team kind of determine how to get there.

I'm trying to think of a recent example of that. But while you're thinking of that, let me kind of wrap back to what you're saying, because I think it's really important. And you've said more than you probably think you've said. So you're talking about. Even when you absorb content, how you read, how you think, how you design, and how you find your way back to it, not everybody's like that.

And you said, you know, you can go 15 years to a book you've read and probably know it's on the right-hand page toward the end of the book at the top section because that's how your brain thinks. I have, I can't do that, but I have similar weird things. I can read a whole document, walk away, and for a very short period of time. almost quote it word for word. And then the next day, I don't even remember the document.

And so that's how I'm wired. Everyone is different. And what you said is really important.

You said, you know, it kind of starts with a calendar. And then I like this, you've got a day, that's a meeting day, and you have to step back and refresh in it. And then you've got content days blocked off. What I want to say to our leaders is you have to learn how you're wired.

And then, you know, if you're just starting off, you can't necessarily design everything around your schedule, because you haven't gotten that. to that point yet. But the longer you lead and kind of the higher you rise, the more you have the freedom to creatively design your time around the rhythms that work best for you.

And you had two content days. I'm guessing you don't put anything on those days. Is that true or not true? Yeah, nothing. Nothing.

And the reason is why? Because I'd rather have one God idea than a thousand good ideas. And because you can't, if you're studying for two hours and someone breaks your momentum.

it's gone. It doesn't come back. And so like today I'm doing this with you and the rest of the day I have no more content because my rhythm is broken and I can't go back and write. So I'm going to do more videos, more meetings.

And then we're going to wrap and plan next week because of the rhythms of the way we're designed. So all that to say to our leaders is you've got to figure out how you work, how you think, when you're most productive, when you work through people. For us, we start on Monday morning.

First thing, 8 a.m. with top leaders. Why? Because we're setting the direction for the week.

Other people, that's not going to work for the rhythm. So for our leaders, I want you to really think about who you have to work through when you cast vision, when you hold people accountable, when you hold yourself accountable, when you bring your team in to consult you, when you make decisions, all that kind of stuff. Any more things about your calendar, your scheduling that's weird, creative?

unique to you. Yeah, I want to share one little maxim. Do the math. I kind of have a guilt complex like a lot of leaders because more people ask to meet with me than I'm able to meet with.

And a couple of years ago, I realized I have to Jedi mind trick myself, Craig, that if we meet one-on-one for an hour, It's one hour times one. Now, the difference is actually the caveat is I would immediately think about the hundreds of thousands of people that you lead and influence. So I wouldn't see it as one.

I would do the math and do a multiplier. So if I'm meeting with leaders, I don't see it as 10 leaders. I'm thinking about I'm doing the math and, oh, this meeting is really important because it's going to influence indirectly more people.

As it relates to the study piece, sometimes I say no to one person because take a half-hour message times the number of people that hear it real-time multiplied by the number of people that on demand might download it on YouTube or anywhere else. And I recognize it. The early days with 20 people, Craig.

If it was a bad message, I'm only wasting 20 people times 30 minutes or 10 hours of collective time. These days, in fact, no, I'm going to flip it. I'm guessing that every message you preach, if you did the math, would equal many, many years, maybe decades. So then I'm now Jedi mind-tricking myself that I'm so sorry I can't meet with you one-on-one because because this 30-minute kind of group counseling, this 30-minute message is going to be really critical for thousands of people. So I hope that's meaningful to someone, but I kind of have to almost trick myself into prioritizing the things that I'm called to do.

So I think this is important, Mark, because the leaders in this community, they're good people, they care about people. The pastors in this community, they want to be good pastors. And so It's really, really hard when someone wants to meet because you do care about them.

It's really hard to say no. And to be really effective, there are times where you do have to say no to one to say yes to more. And that almost sounds unloving or selfish or uncaring. And it can be if you're entitled and arrogant, like I don't meet with anybody, that's dangerous.

And then I do, I want to say this too, and I think you would agree. Let's say you do get to where you do really do oversee a lot. You have a lot of responsibility.

And then you say, well, I never meet with people. It was Andy Stanley who said, I'm going to do for one what I wish I could do for all. Symbolically, I think it's ridiculously important for us to always do the whatever it is. If it's to meet with one new employee a month, or if it's to do still do one hospital visit a week, or if it's still to do.

one funeral a month or one a year or whatever, that symbolically, I think we should always still be engaged in the things that matter to our hearts. But it is not wrong nor unwise to have to say no to some things to say yes to something bigger. Comment and correct me.

What do you think? Spot on. Yeah, I think, you know, I could at this point just write books, Craig, but I would lose touch.

And you lose heart. You lose heart. Yeah.

I think there's something about, I just think once you reach the highest level of leadership in the kingdom of God, it gives you the right to relinquish your rights and wash feet. This is the example that Jesus set. And so I never want to be above anything. And I'll occasionally meet with a kid in the youth group or, you know, just to kind of, you want to keep your.

ear to the ground. But I would say one more thing. There was a moment years ago where pastoring a growing church, writing books, and I'm on the road, kind of like we used to do those book tours, and we're here, there, and everywhere.

And my wife said to me, Mark, this is not what I signed up for. And it was kind of one of those tough moments. And I made a decision that I'm not going to do more than 12 overnight speaking trips a year. And then I dialed it back to six because I feel like as leaders, we've got to figure out where's the ROI, what's most important.

But if you don't make those pre-decisions, good luck. You know, I even had the stewardship team that I'm accountable to. Tell me, I said, tell me that I cannot serve on more than three boards concurrently.

Why? Because I'm terrible at saying no. So I need boundaries that are almost these default settings. So that my energy isn't spent in all of those different directions. So tell me about your stewardship accountability team.

What's that look like? Yeah, well, we are pretty staff-led, pastor-led church. But I think it's critical in those instances where you have certain checks and balances. And so our stewardship team gives financial oversight and dictates. how I do what I do.

And, you know, I, wow, I, there are a lot of leaders failing and falling. I'm stating the obvious. And I think you've got to have people in your life that can speak the truth and love and, and that you're processing hard things with.

So You know, they they I'm grateful because they actually encouraged me to use all of my vacation days, which I think you owe it to yourself and owe it to whatever organization you lead to be away. So you have people in your life that have the power to stop you from you. Yes. Yep.

Yep. And and I would add to that, Craig. And for me, it's less about the formalities.

I would say one of the most significant people in my life is an 82-year-old spiritual father. He's been there, done that. Someone that, listen, he has walked me back from the edge of the cliff many times and helped me not just as a pastor and leader, but I think as a parent.

And as someone that just, I'm just so grateful for his. his sight lines and his influence in my life, I think it's really, really important. What a gift to have someone in your life that you can default to. So can you tell me a little bit about that relationship? Did you ask him to be a mentor?

Did you have formal meetings? A lot of people want to know, how do I find somebody like that? How do they do it? Yeah, well, we had just moved to the DC area.

And, uh, So Laura and I were like 24 and 22, and we were coming off of a failed church plant in Chicago, which was kind of discouraging and a little embarrassing. And our first Thanksgiving, Dick and Ruth both, who were friends with Laura's pastor, with Laura's parents, invited us over for a Thanksgiving dinner. And I remember two things. I remember Ruth's apple pie, which was amazing. And I remember playing Trivial Pursuit.

with Dick and thinking, this guy has more trivial knowledge than anybody I've ever met. I want to hang around this guy. And long story short, we struck up a friendship.

But I took more of the initiative, Craig. Can I go there with you or hang out with you? And so I was just intentional.

I need to be around people. that are older and wiser in the same way. And I'll just, I hope this, I hope it's okay for me to say this.

One reason why I love, and we don't get as much time as I would love to have, but I love hanging out with the Craig Groeschel or I love hanging out with a Bob Goff or people that make me dream a little bit bigger, that stretch my vision. And same thing with the Dick Foe. I just need someone who it's going to be okay.

In fact, during COVID, great example, you know, I was ready to hit the panic button. We couldn't gather as a church for a year and two weeks because of D.C. government mandate.

And I said, help me out. He said, hey, you should have been here in 1968. Yeah. Well, it shows that you have people in your life like that. And I just want to say to our community, I think a lot of people look for like a one-size-fits-all mentor. And what I would suggest is that you look for more like.

four, five, six, or seven different people that you look to. For example, Mark, you're probably the same way. I have people that I talk to about health and nutrition, and we talk supplements, exercise, diet, sleep, all this kind of stuff. I have people that I talk to about investing and wisely managing the wealth with generosity and strategy and such.

I have people that it's all organizational leadership. I have a couple that is marriage and parenting. And so I would suggest you look for... targeted people to learn from. And any area you want to grow, you want to have at least one or two people you look to.

I'm assuming you're kind of in a similar vein. Yeah, because very seldom would you find people with expertise in all of those cross-disciplines. The other thing I would say is that probably different people for different seasons. Exactly.

You know, there was a season where I was laser focused on laser. How do I become a better communicator? Well, the good news there is you don't even necessarily need FaceTime. I'm going to watch a Craig Groeschel message or any of my favorite communicators, and I'm going to spend time reverse engineering it.

Distant mentors. Exactly. Yeah. Yep.

Yep. Yeah. So I want to dig into something because I think you're one of the best, both in writing and living this out. In the book, Win the Day, you talk about the habits that are so important.

And we all know. that's your habits make or break you. I'd like to know. kind of like what I'd call leadership rhythm habits.

What are the key ingredients in a normal week for you that may seem really small that then bring exponential results? Yeah, I'll pull one out of the hat. You know, my wife, Laura, has had two bouts with cancer since 2017. And she's doing great. I mean, she's on the other side, rang the bell.

Just got a clean bill of health four years out from the last bout. But that will reorder your world in a hurry. By the way, just in case, because there's probably someone listening that got a recent diagnosis. Let me just share one little thing. When Laura got that first cancer diagnosis, she read a poem that posed the question.

And the question was this. What have you come to teach me? So we decided to take a learning posture.

And as hard as that is with cancer, and I would say that we have learned and grown more in the last seven years than all the years before that in our marriage. But one of the things that we do, Craig, well, we did a couple of things. One, we did start hitting comedy clubs. because when I ask you for habits, hitting comedy clubs was not on the top 100 things I thought you were going to say.

So go on. We are so intentional about humor and comedy and laughing together that that's pretty random. But what we do, our Sabbath, and I would advocate for this, whether you have kind of a religious faith or you don't. Like... the most elite athletes recovery.

What they're best at is rest and recovery. So I think we have an, a weekly Sabbath Sunday sundown to Monday sundown. And one of the things that we do each week is we share our gratitude journal with each other.

And that has been such a powerful habit that it just gratitude begets gratitude. And, uh, and Laura often has twice as many as I have. She's a little bit better at it than I am, but occasionally, uh, occasionally she'll write in that gratitude, uh, journal, Craig, she'll just say, I'm still here and it gets me after two bouts with cancer. Like there, there's so much to be grateful for. So I think finding things that really rejuvenate and renew, um, you know, I have annual, I kind of do an annual adventure, an annual challenge.

My oldest son loves to bike. And so I've done a couple of bike centuries the last few years. And so finding outlets, can I have a little bit of fun with pastors for a second? I know that's a subset of your audience. I know some pastors, you know, let's be honest, their messages are kind of boring.

And and What I would say in love is you don't need to get a message. You need to get a life. You need a life where you're living the adventure and doing things that get some adrenaline going through your blood. And your messages will become naturally far more interesting and enjoyable.

So I hope I didn't step on too many toes here. Here's what's interesting, Mark. I, uh, I...

stumbled upon a counselor that I was really blessed to work with because his breadth and experience has been, he works with people that have experience well beyond mine. And after working with him, I was the first kind of pastor that he worked with. And he is a person of faith.

He said, hey, if any of your friends, you know, he felt kind of called to explore more about that. So now I've sent him too many to count. in both pastoral names that a lot of this community would know, and then just other leaders that a lot of this community would know.

And so he's working with a lot of my friends. And so he would never tell me anything about them, but I was asking, hey, what are you learning? And the number one thing they all say is the very same thing he said to me is, you got to go out and for most, especially for men, and because my friends are men, I don't know what he'd say to women, but to the men, you have to find something that's adrenaline-fueled, engaging. disconnects your mind. And that was the number one thing he said to me.

And I have found that I kind of thought like, don't you have another play? You're going to tell something different. And it just really, really is important to have something that disconnects your mind.

And then on the gratitude thing, that is ridiculously important. On my journal, I write GR for gratitude, and I put a square over it. And so in my journal, I can look at the same day last year, the same day the year before, it's kind of got five years on top of each other. And every time I've got stacks of GRs for something I'm grateful for, it's both God-honoring, it's renewing, it's refreshing.

And I just want to compliment you because you've done it well, man. And what I've noticed about you that people that don't know you wouldn't know is that you have way more opportunities that most people would never believe you say no to because you're trying to say yes to the fewer things that matter most. And I admire that about you.

In fact, you've turned me down before, which hurt my feelings for the first 30 seconds, but then I respect the fact that you're really strategic and focused on what you do. And I want to just talk about your book for a minute, A Million Little Miracles, subtitled Rediscover the God Who is Bigger Than Big, Closer Than Close, and Gooder Than Good. That last little phrase kind of reflects the part you probably shouldn't be a writer, gooder than good, right? I had to convince the editors. I like it.

I like it. So tell us about the book, Mark. Yeah.

Well, Albert Einstein said there are only two ways to live your life. One is as if nothing is a miracle, and the other is as if everything is. So, Craig, I'm cut from the cloth. I've experienced some miracles. I had severe asthma for 40 years.

I don't anymore. Pray to bold prayer. And I won't get into that story, but actually ran the Chicago Marathon to celebrate that healing miracle. I haven't touched an inhaler from July 2nd, 2016 until today.

So my marathon runner, Leanne, I call her Power Pack, she is nodding so big. She hasn't nodded anything good you said, but on the marathon, she's cheering you down. So keep going.

I love it. I love it. I think when I say miracles, people tend to think of the anomaly or the epiphany or the exception to the rule. But what's funny is this book is the exact opposite of that. It's about everyday miracles that, hey, right now we're on a planet that's spinning at a thousand miles per hour, speeding through space at 67,000 miles per hour.

We don't even get dizzy. Even on a day you didn't get much done, you did travel 1.6 million miles through space. But here's the thing. No one at the end of the day, you know, kneels next to their bed and says, Lord, thanks for keeping us in orbit.

We don't pray that way because we tend to take constants for granted. And so I would say there are a million little miracles hiding in plain sight. And this book is about opening our eyes to those everyday miracles.

So to our community, if you've never read a Mark Batterson book, he is a New York Times bestseller. Books are fantastic. Um.

in a pit with a lion on a snowy day, the prayer circle, a couple that my family quotes all the time. And Amy will not let me, I tend to say really big statements like she's the best, he's the greatest, whatever. So I'm not going to say you are the most researched author out there.

There are some Harvard guys that that's all they do that are as good. But you are in the top category of people. that footnote with amazing resources. I like that. You're so well-read and you're so smart.

You have a gift of both storytelling, bringing scripture and spiritual things to life, but in a way that's accessible to someone who may not be, they may just be a seeker or could be someone who's been a person of faith for a long time. So I want to give away five of these books. If you are not on YouTube, hop over to YouTube and type in the comment section.

Let's do this. Type in there, I need a miracle. That'll be great. Just type in, I need a miracle.

And then our team will select five of those and we'll send you Mark Batterson's newest book, A Million Little Miracles. I know some of our listeners may have heard you for the first time. If they want to find out more, like, hey, this guy in DC, how do they find out more about you, Mark? Yeah, they can find me at markbatterson.com.

And... and then I'm on, I'm on a few social media outlets. Mark Batterson, uh, would love to connect that way.

Um, and, uh, Craig, what a joy to, I feel like we got to catch up a little bit just by being on the podcast together. Well, my favorite part of the whole thing is that your great habit is going to comedy clubs. So that's my takeaway.

There you go. I love it. So, hey, thanks for your friendship. And I celebrate your leadership. You have a gift.

And I love the fact that you're really unique. You know your lane. You stay in your lane. You're confident in your lane. You're not trying to be someone else.

You've got very unique gifts. And so I want to say that to all of our leaders, that God knew what he was doing when he made you. He gave you very unique gifts to do the exact calling and purpose that is before you. Whatever you're doing today is important. It may not feel big, but what you do in the small things leads to bigger things.

And so lead with integrity. lead with passion, and God will open up more doors to do more things. So to our audience, thank you for being a part. I'd love it if you'd share on social media.

If you want more information on Mark or even his reading tips, go to life.church slash leadership podcast, and we'll send you the leader guide. We'll have that information in there. And guess what, man? We all got a little bit better today thanks to Mark, and that's really good news because everyone wins when the leader gets better.

Transcript for:Leadership Insights from Mark Batterson

Transcript for:
Leadership Insights from Mark Batterson