Margaret Douglas Murder Investigation Overview

This eerie footage of 98-year-old Margaret Douglas was taken just moments before she was murdered. The police in Wadsworth, Ohio never could have expected that their investigation into another local crime would lead them to the key to solving the mystery behind her death and the nightmarish things that were done to her body afterwards. The deranged motive behind the unthinkable crime would leave the offender's family, as well as the police, in shock. The nightmare started when a man called the police to report that his car had been stolen. Much of what he reported was a lie. but would still lead to a truth so disturbing it would stick with the investigators for the rest of their careers. When police brought a 17-year-old Gavin Ramsey into the station on April 13, 2018, to talk about breaking curfew and the increase of crimes in his neighborhood, they had no idea what they were getting into. Gavin was accompanied by his mother, Chris, and the police informed them both that he was not under arrest and could leave at any time. Some of the following footage has never been seen before. Gavin, does your mom know why you're here? I think so. Well, he said he climbed on top of the church. Yeah. I thought there's got to be more to that story because I wouldn't be going down here and picking up a pole if that's what you did. The police were already well acquainted with Gavin. Lately, he appeared to have made a habit of going out at night to get up to all manner of mischief. This time, Gavin told a story about secretly meeting up with his friend, Brayden. We weren't really doing anything. Then we went over to the church and climbed on top. And then we went, like, into the courtyard. But that's all we did. Now, you did more. Unfortunately, you guys have left behind some very telling items. Okay. If we're going to get to the bottom of this, let's just make it the truth all at once. Let's deal with it and get it done. That's not a team. Yeah. You're a kid, so you're not looking at as much trouble. The officer might come to regret this comment once she uncovers the full extent of Gavin's crimes. For now, all the police knew was that Gavin had been out after his curfew, but that was barely scraping the surface. Since he was staying rather tight-lipped, they also attempted to get the story from his friend, Braden. Your phone? Yes. Where do you think you left it? That I have no idea. What were you doing? Just out walking around. I actually had, I forget the officer's name, but somebody stopped me and I talked to him for a little bit. I guess he was out looking for somebody. Who were you walking around with? Nobody. There was a very good reason the police were out looking for someone. They had no idea how close they'd come to catching their culprit that night. Maybe it's in the lighter? Mm-mm. No? Would you be surprised if I told you there was a lighter with your phone? Honestly, yes. Okay. Gavin and Brayden had a problem. In addition to the phone and lighter left at the church, the police also had security footage of the boys. When Brayden was confronted with this, his story changed. If you just want to be honest with me, that would be great. And if not, I can just say that you said you were nowhere near and here's the video. I mean. Okay. I appreciate, I guess. The straight up-ness. I do, honestly. I was out with a friend. We were just messing around, and I'm not exactly sure what church that is, but we decided to get up on top of the roof, and then we dropped down to see if one of the doors were open, and then a silent alarm. Not really silent. We heard it. We saw an officer walking from the church and then we ran from him. So was that Gavin's green lighter then? Or yours? Green lighter, that would be Gavin's. When he found out Braden was talking to police, Gavin confirmed the story about the alarm. This would be the first in a series of confessions he would make over the coming days. I didn't even know what was going on because we were by the windows and they were already cracked open. And, like, we were just messing with them. Like, they were honestly cracked open. I'm not lying anymore. This immediately raises the question of what else Gavin had lied about. You'd think that would be enough to scare the bejeebies out of you. Yeah. And go home. Were you guys going to hide in the trailer? No. What did you do with the trailer? I poked my knife behind the little seam and popped it out. Why were you guys going to go in there? I don't know. We honestly had nothing to do. And me and Brayden together, we know it's not good. But, I don't know, we're good friends. We just hang out. According to Gavin's mother, her son wasn't supposed to be hanging out with Brayden. This restriction didn't appear to have the intended effect, but that would soon be inconsequential compared to what else Gavin had been up to. Did you guys do anything else in the area? No. So you guys didn't go into any cars? You know what? It would make me feel a lot better now if it was just the two of you that went into the cars. Yeah. You know, because of the other issue in the area. I didn't even know there was a car issue in the area. Oh, God. Yeah. You guys didn't... Now would be the time to tell, okay? Because we processed the cards. We did fingerprints and DNA. He's been in trouble. I would assume you were with him at Central Intermediate School? Yes. Yes. So your DNA is on file as well. So that's all going to come up. If it's you guys, for goodness sakes, it's just rummaging through cards, and nothing was even taken. That's... They could tell. We've had a lot of goings-on. in your neighborhood lately? And probably more than the general public is aware. I'm sure. I'm sure. More than one incident. More than one incident. Okay. Unfortunately, we're trying to see if, you know, they're all related. Right. The most extreme recent crime in the area came to the attention of police just a week earlier when they received a troubling call. which would kick off a case more disturbing than anyone could have anticipated. At first, they never imagined it was connected to Gavin's nighttime mischief, but would come to find that the cases were inextricable. Roger, police? Yes, this is Howard Leisure. My aunt lives on Portage Street. Okay. And a friend of ours stopped over there yesterday to check on her, and she was nowhere to be found. We didn't know if you found anybody wandering. No, we don't have any reports of anybody wandering. We can't find her in the house anywhere. He went in the house and looked through the whole house, couldn't find her. We don't know where she's at. She's 98 years old. Does she live there by herself? She lives there by herself, yes. What's her name? Margaret Douglas. And she never locks her house. Okay. She doesn't drive. She doesn't have a car. And I checked with the relatives I had phone numbers for, and nobody served from her or picked her up. Okay. This was obviously worrying. But Margaret's disappearance would only become more harrowing as the search got underway. When the police were chatting with Gavin in the first of two interviews, they attempted to uncover what else he might have gotten up to on recent nights. I'm guessing this isn't the first time yet. Well, no, like we've snuck out in the past before, but since I've got in trouble, this most recent one, like without the law, I haven't really snuck out at all. When was the recent time that you got in trouble? He has not had any freedom at all. I mean, he literally goes to work and home probably three months because he makes bad choices. And we're just not, we don't want that for our kids. So he literally has no life. At least that's what Chris thought. She clearly had no idea just how busy her son had been. Police had unwittingly started the process of uncovering the truth of Gavin's activities the previous week when talking to Margaret Douglas'nephew, Howard. Desperate to find his aunt and willing to help in any way he could, Howard and his wife, Cindy, went to the police station to answer questions. So when was the last time you guys were there? That was, I'm thinking that was, it was a Tuesday in March 27th, I think it might have been. Anything that anybody said? It set off an alarm? No. No. Margaret bothered me a lot. That's why it's so just horrible. She would keep in her sleep. And so this past Sunday, David called us. David, who had grown up next door to Margaret and her late husband, was the couple's friend and caretaker. The police would need to talk to him too, sooner rather than later. During Gavin's first interview, things got progressively more disturbing as well. But police could never have guessed that his tale would eventually become a full-blown horror story. Did you rummage through glove boxes or anything? Yeah. And you didn't take not even change or anything? Maybe like 50 times, but other than that, seriously, nothing. What did you do with somebody that's in my car? That is so upsetting and scary. I understand that, but... really their own fault for not locking me up. Yeah, I locked my house time. Because I did. It's not the point. It's not your work. Gavin's crimes would only escalate from this point on. The previous week, with no idea that they were working on a connected case, the police met with Margaret's friend David. What he told them would prove to be invaluable, though it was far from reassuring. And I came up Sunday and Gavin. including the basement, but couldn't find Margaret, where she was ultimately found would sicken and outrage everyone who cared about her. During the first conversation with Gavin, which took place a week after Margaret's disappearance, it became obvious that he'd been up to far worse things than he initially let on. We had a carjacking. Oh my God. And the is a young white male with a nice complexion. And blue eyes? Is that you? No, it's not me. I wouldn't have the first thing about jacking a car. The proximity of the crimes was more than slightly suspicious, and the police likely believed Gavin was still holding back. They had unknowingly drawn closer to the heart of Gavin's dark secrets when Margaret's friend David recounted not being able to find her. Little did anyone know that this would be the lead-up to a stomach-churning discovery. When Howard still couldn't reach Margaret the next morning, he went to the house in person. Meanwhile, David also called some of Margaret's other friends and neighbors, but they hadn't heard from her either. No, I made it on her phone there on the desk. It's the old-style phone. Oh, the rotary phone? Yeah, the rotary phone. Okay. Yeah, and I called my dad. You don't want to use that digital phone? Well, it wasn't in the bracket. Oh, okay. Where she kept it. The missing phone would also turn out to have shocking implications, along with a few other seemingly innocuous observations made by Howard and his wife. I know we were able to find her wallet and checkbook. Can you describe her wallet to me? Her wallet is red. It's about, I would say, rectangle. I would say maybe four inches in width. Do you remember the location of the heater when you were there? Oh yeah, it was right smack in front of the closet door. And actually that thought hit my mind. When they asked me to look for her coat, I went over there and I thought, why did Margaret put that heater in front of the door? The odd placement of the heater would come up again later. Perhaps the strangest thing was a jar of blackberry jam in Margaret's living room. There would turn out to be a sick reason it was there. But nobody knew that yet. Gavin's second interview, however, would eventually tell all. After searching the house twice and finding no sign of Margaret, Howard and Cindy decided it was time to call the police. When they arrived, Howard helped them search the house yet again, which is when the case took a turn. During their first conversation with Gavin, the police brought up the terrible results of that search. There's no reason for me to fluff anything up. Nope. And I'm sure you guys know about the elderly woman that was coming. Oh my God, that was horrifying. That was horrifying. It is horrifying. Did you know her at all? No, I was going to just to see her out, like on a porch. I just, that actually makes me want to cry. Like, how do you get to be 98 years old? Nobody lives to be 98. It's so rare. And someone else felt that that was okay. Like, how did that, I don't know. Like, why does your life end like that? That's right. Margaret lived just around the corner from Gavin. Tragically, she'd been found deceased. She'd been strangled and her body hidden inside her own home. But the most horrifying facts of what was done to her body after death were not yet known. The answer of who was twisted enough to commit such a crime would hit far closer to home. than anyone anticipated. And then I'd get all scared. I'm like, oh my God, I have all my porch lights on now and I have stranger danger issues. The irony of Chris's stranger danger issues would not be lost for long. I can't imagine you doing something like that. No. Just interacting with you this little bit, I can't imagine us in your wheelhouse. No. But there was so much about Gavin that nobody knew. I don't know what to say. Is there more? Because you know it all comes out. No, it's not that there's anything more. It's what the f***, dude? What if I always told you kids what happens in the dark comes out in the light? That's the way it works. You mess up, you get caught. You make bad choices, you're going to pay for it. So if there's something else, let's get it all out on the table. So that we know what we're dealing with. It's not anything else. It's... I don't know. I'm mad at myself. I'm so mad at myself. What are you so mad at yourself for? I was 16, 30, and a f***ing belly in like five minutes of years. And now I'm going to be in more trouble. I have to go back to court. And I'm done with it. I'm so done with it. I'm costing them thousands of dollars. Constantly heartbreak. I've honestly probably never made it either. I'm proud. I don't do anything good. Stop coughing. You didn't take anybody's car? Have you ever used an app called Grindr? No. How do you feel about gay people? I'm not gay. Oh, that's okay. But they don't bother you? This might seem like a strange line of questioning, but there's a very good reason the detective is asking this question. It likely evoked a feeling of dread for Gavin as it means that the police know far more than they've been letting on. Earlier, the police kept trying to determine what could have motivated someone to kill Margaret in such an atrocious manner. or that we're getting any. The detective once again pushed harder for answers from Gavin, leading him to make an unexpected request. Is there something else you need to tell us? What's upsetting you so much? Nothing. The detective clearly hit on something. I think you two actually leave for a second. What's that? You two actually leave. So I can talk to her? Yeah. Okay. Knowing what had happened to Margaret, Gavin's mother was likely terrified of what her son didn't want to say in front of her. As it turns out, she had good reason to be concerned. Gavin was also unable to hide his emotions in the interrogation room. But this didn't stop him from giving the detective at least one of the answers she wanted. Finally addressing the previous question about meeting up with someone from Grindr. But this was only one of the many secrets she would convince Gavin to spill. The car dressing, it, okay, it was me. I'm going to be honest about it, but the way that he explained it, that guy, that's not right. That grinder thing, yeah, I have been on it. And this guy was like the first time that this happened, and I told him, like, I was 17 and everything, and I wasn't planning on doing anything with him. It's not my style. I was just, like, even for you, a man, trying to... get with a 17 year old so I was just gonna rob him it's like it's still messed up but I guess what he's doing I don't really think it is and then the whole carjacking thing I didn't I never even left overlook I literally like I got in and he's like what should we go to the backseat I'm like yeah shit so he got out I stand and lock the doors and Hopped in the driver's seat and just drove around, messed with him, and then I left. Do you have his wallet? No. No, that's because I kept asking him. Like, I cracked the window of the car. Like, he walked up, doors locked, everything. I'm like, where's your wallet? And he's like, I don't have it. So then, you know, I opened his glove box and all that. And I'm like, well, show me your pockets. And he's like, I don't have it, but can I have my phone? I'm like, no. And then I... turned and he like tried to grab the window and like break it and then I just I gassed it and he walked and that's when he left Overlook and then I went up to like where the dumpsters are you know where that white van is yeah that's where the car was. Gavin added that he threw the man's phone out the window shortly before he abandoned the car then blocked the man on Grindr. Believe it or not all of this would be connected to Margaret's death in the coming days. I don't even have the act anymore, I deleted it after that night. I just, I didn't want to say that in front of my mom. Are you gay? No, that's not it. Like, I didn't have any plans to do anything. What was he thinking was going to happen? I mean... Was there an act that you guys agreed upon? Not really, no. Just, like... NSA. I didn't even know what that meant, but it means no strings attached. Okay. Did he touch you at all? No. Did you touch him at all? No. Why were you on that app? Really just for that reason, to find guys that are that low, or people, I guess. That want to get with kids? Like, it's karma, really. Like, if you're going to do that, then I'm going to rob you. The carjacking would be completely overshadowed by what else Gavin had done. The police got a hint of the madness to come while searching Margaret's home, though they couldn't have imagined the nightmare they had uncovered. You didn't hurt that old lady, did you? No, and that's what I was pissed about earlier. What were you pissed about? Because, and I see people that do the video killing the girl, and that's, like I've just had some dark stuff and everything, and like, I don't know, people know, like, I'm a dark person, I guess, but like, I'm not gonna go kill somebody. It's not like that. But the people in the class are like, oh, you killed her, didn't you? I really feel like you did. I'm like, no, I didn't. So people are saying this? Yeah, and that's... It's making me really mad. It really is. There was no reason that we would find your DNA inside her house, because we swabbed the hell out of that house. You shouldn't. What do you think should happen to somebody that does that? That kills someone? Kills a 98-year-old woman. I don't know. I think iFerni is the best way to go. That's how I look at things, is iFerni. I mean, if it makes you feel better, I will give them your name and let them know your DNA is on file, and they can rule you out. Okay, when we get a DNA profile. Would that help you? I mean, what, for, like, the lady? I mean, that doesn't bother me. Brayden's DNA was also on record and would be compared to the crime scene. Howard, Cindy, and David all agreed to provide the police with DNA samples and fingerprints so they could be ruled out as suspects. Are you sure your mom's DNA isn't freaking out? Yeah, she probably thinks I'm contesting the murder. She's been in here so long. Just three days later, this remark would be cast in a chilling new light. Why would you even hear about an act like that? Why would you even do that? I don't know. Like I said, Mom, I don't know why I do anything, but I do. That sounds all vigilante crazy to me. That's what that sounds like. So that will get forwarded also, and then God only knows what that charge is going to look like. Do you see how all these horrible things kind of tie together? And you start to get pretty worried about what's happening, especially with the escalation of... Yeah. You know, if there's something else or somebody else that you know is out there doing stupid crap, can you keep it on the down low? I will. Your name won't cross my lips, but I need to get to the bottom of what happened to this poor woman. While Gavin assured the detective that he'd told her everything, the bulk of his secrets had not yet been spilled, unaware of what her son had done. Chris permitted the police to search Gavin's phone. With that, they left the police department. When it came to the phone, the investigators were mainly looking for anything about the carjacking. Instead, they found something completely unexpected. It was awful enough that two detectives rushed to the Ramsey house to place him under arrest. Take note that he was made aware of his Miranda rights as soon as he was seated in the police car. When you had your mom leave the room the other day, were you going to tell me this? No, this was a project. I thought about it, but I didn't know what to do. Did you know I'd be coming to see you after we got your phone? I figured. As soon as I heard the knock on the door, I honestly, if my boots were tied, I think I would. When the detective ushered Gavin into the video-recorded interrogation room, Are you sure I can't get you a drink? I'm telling me about it doesn't give you much relief. It just turns in fact and ruins my life. We can't go back and change it. No. At this point, we just have to figure out what's going on with you, okay? And you didn't take anything from the house. Like I said before, it doesn't make a difference either way. I mean, what other crime could I commit that would really matter at this point? Grandpa? Can you breathe in? Yeah. Once Gavin was uncuffed, the detective set about filling in the specifics of the gruesome yet patchy tale Gavin shared on the drive to the station. The truth was about to come out once and for all. But each detail would make it more horrific than anyone could have imagined. Did you want to have to initially just steal something? Just honestly, all I did was I wanted the adrenaline rush. Oh, I just thought about something. Yeah. I think that's why I broke into the car and stuff. It's that risk factor. And all I've ever done is take risks because that's the only thing that makes me. That's your drug, adrenaline? Yeah, like, I don't know, it feels real to me. When I'm having adrenaline, it's like, alright. You feel alive? Yeah. Like there's meaning to you, right? I don't know about meaning, but... But you understand, like, you feel like... Yeah, it feels different, like, I don't know how to explain that. Any bad stuff inside you goes away. This tied back to something unsettling Gavin had said in the car on the way to the police station. Gavin continued his story, and he revealed that his meeting with the man from Grindr hadn't gone quite like he previously said. Some physical stuff that went on between the two of you in the car, right? Yeah. First time? Officially, I guess. Yeah. Stuff happened when I was younger. It wasn't voluntary for me. You just weren't sure? Like when you got there, it's kind of like, here's the plan, and things just start happening. Yeah, I know that's kind of freaked me out a little bit. What for Joe? Your reaction to it or him? I don't know, just once I realized I was in the back of a car with some guy. I realized I was crazy. Yeah, and I didn't want to be part of it anymore. Had you met anybody on the ground floor before? I had, yeah, before. So your whole intention of going into the house was just the adrenaline being in somebody's house? Yeah, and then when I robbed the house. It was just the sneaky thrill of, can I get into somebody's house and get out and get away with it? Yeah, but if the door was locked, I wouldn't have just walked away. The whole breaking into the house, that was the adrenaline part. I think I didn't even have a grip on reality whenever I did that. You can probably guess whose house Gavin entered. As terrifying as this was, what he did next was truly mind-boggling. I didn't know whose house it was at first until I saw her. I knew she didn't use it. Had you talked to her before? I know we discussed this a couple times, but... She was going to, like, when I was 13 or 14, going to shovel jackpots and stuff. You know, when I was actually doing something good. And nobody was with you this night? And you've not told anybody about this? No, nobody knows about this. Was it dark when you went outside the house? No lights on, nothing? None at all? Well, none of it was. The lamp, the lamp was on. Were you in her house for a little while before you woke her up? I mean, I, like, I came up on the porch. And I didn't even know what I was going to do. And I looked in the window and everything. I don't know, I felt like going into a house is like the biggest adrenaline rush I could get, I guess. So then I tried the doorknob and it just happened to be unlocked. Was it the front door or back door? The front door or back door. Well, she was already asleep when it right went in. because when I came around the corner, that's where I saw her and it scared me. I didn't expect to see someone right there. I didn't hear anything. So I came in, like, I opened the door and I just listened. I didn't hear anything, so maybe nobody saw me. And then I go to walk around that corner and I think I'm still going slow, but I see her and she's, I don't know, like sleeping or something. And I go to turn around and hit the chair. And it made a noise and she woke up. And she started to scream at that point, you said? Yeah, because when I hit the chair, I turned back around and I looked and she was there staring at me and started to yell. And then went for the phone. She heard me. I don't know what it looked like. Was that when you were trying to get the phone away from her so she could call? Did you knock that guy over here or is that you guys'father on the phone? It was like a little bit of a fight, I think. I think I threw it under the couch. I'm not really sure. By the time I even realized what I was doing, it was too late to stop anything. And you realized that you were on the floor on top of her with your hands on her and stuff. That's when it was okay. Gavin showed the police an injury on his hand where Margaret's nails dug into his arm. He had other scrapes on his hands, but claimed these were unrelated. Margaret never stood a chance in the fight against Gavin, which likely made her final moments even more horrendous. So when she died, was she on the couch or on the floor? Floor. Were you on top of her then? Kind of. Like straddling her? Yeah. And did you use one hand or both? Both. Did you squeeze it or push her against the floor or both? Both. And you said you don't remember if she was bleeding at that point? The only thing I can think of bleeding is when I put my hand over her mouth. When you were holding your hand over her mouth, you had to push too hard and maybe made her nose bleed? Yeah. The detectives knew Gavin had skipped over several particularly nauseating details, but those would eventually come out too. So how long do you think you were in the house before you woke her up? I don't know, probably like 10, 15 minutes. And then from the time you woke her up to the time you ended up on top of her children, how long did that whole part take? Probably like five minutes. Was she like fighting back, even trying to struggle, and then you guys went down? Yeah. I think on her way down was when we got ripped. But you don't remember ripping her panties? Margaret's underwear was not just torn, but completely ripped from her body. Her bloody nightgown and bra were pushed up around her upper body. Fearing the implications, crime scene investigators swabbed all of Margaret's clothing, her body. and the items in the closet. The results would once again emphasize how reprehensible this crime was. Did she say anything to you when this was happening? Did you say anything to her? No, I didn't. It happened. It happened quick. The level of indignity Margaret's body was subjected to was further emphasized in the detective's conversation with Margaret's nephew, Howard. And how many times did you guys go into the closet? I went in twice. When we first got there, the first thing I did was open the closet, but I had to move that heater from in front of the door. It's never there. Can you tell me how it was positioned in front of the door? It was flat against the door. I just put my fingers underneath the top lip. and I lift it up and set it out of the way the first time I looked. Then I wanted to make sure to put it back the way it was, so I moved it back. Howard said his wife Cindy also moved the heater twice to look in the closet for Margaret's coat to see if she might have left. However, the coat was found in the closet, though it wasn't on the hanger where it belonged. Howard's second foray into the closet was life-altering. That's when I noticed the tennis shoe. So I tried to pick it up, I couldn't pick it up. I'm thinking, what's holding the shoe? So I said, why don't I grab another piece of clothing and throw it back? I've never seen this before in my life. White, you know, and I touched it, it was cold, felt clammy, but it felt like styrofoam to me. So I moved it. You alright? Give me a minute. Yep. So I moved another piece of clothing and that's when I tinkled down like this and I felt it. Up in front of the leg and I felt it the same way. I think, why has she got thyroid foam in here? What is it? Then it hit me. That took you a minute to realize that it was her in there? Yes, it did. Margaret's other shoe was also found in the closet, carelessly thrown on top of her, along with other items from the closet. It appeared that Gavin had pulled items down at random in an effort to conceal the body. I took a minute to realize what it was. Oh, yeah. Oh, God. Well, she didn't get in there herself. I know. She wasn't going to eat her by herself or cover herself up. I know that. When Margaret's body was removed from the closet, police made the skin-crawling discovery that she'd been laying on top of her torn underwear. How long did you stay there before you put her in the closet? That was probably like 30 minutes. I just kind of sat there and I didn't know like what was going on. Like I was so in shock. And then I checked my phone and it said it was like four something. And I knew my mom had to get up at five for work. So then you made the decision then? Did you look around for another place to put her or was that just the first place you came along? I guess I was just the first place considering my time with it. And then you drug her by her feet, you said, to the closet. What part of her body did you put in there first? I think it was her head that went in first. Did you close the closet door? Did you put that heater in front of the door? Yeah. The closet where Margaret's body was found was only about two and three quarters feet wide by one and three quarters feet deep. In order to make her body fit, Gavin contorted and shoved her into the space, face down with her knees bent and arms folded. And you didn't take her wallet? Nobody cares about the 60 or 80 bucks. Yeah, nobody cares about anything in there. The trash was long gone by this point, but that didn't turn out to be an issue. Police once again involved Gavin's parents, who had followed the arrest team to the police station to help them with their investigation. We'll explain later. Maybe go to Uncle David's and just hang there and we'll call you when you can come home. No, everything's not already back, but don't tell your brothers right now. Once Gavin's three brothers were out of the house, the police carried out a search warrant. Their efforts were not in vain. Tucked away in the back of a dresser drawer with Gavin's jeans, the police located Margaret's missing red wallet. Gavin confessed he'd spent all the cash on cigarettes, but Margaret's cards were all accounted for. However, the wallet wasn't the only item of interest. I can't handle myself when I'm sober. I can't, like, comprehend. I don't even know the words to use. My thoughts when I'm sober are dark. When I'm high, they're, like, good thoughts. Have you ever thought about harming anybody before or taking someone's life before? Not, like, planning it out, but, like, oh, I'm so mad I could go kill somebody. someone right now. Like that kind of thing. But you never imagined yourself actually doing it? No. I could never envision myself. Gavin shared with the police that he had struggled with the urge to take his own life. He refrained, he said, for the sake of his mother, who would have been heartbroken. I mean, I've wondered what killing somebody would feel like, but I've also wondered what jumping off a building would feel like. So it's not like anything about this was premeditated. During their search, police came across a journal in his bedroom that would prove that once again... Gavin was not sharing the whole truth. The journal began with two research projects on the serial killers Donald Henry Gaskins and Ted Bundy. After this, the entries transitioned to ideas for skits and short films. Chillingly, in each one, Gavin played the role of a killer. The victim in almost every story was to be played by Brayden. As skin-crawling as this was, the entries containing Gavin's personal thoughts were by far the most disturbing. In one, Gavin wrote, I want to know what's wrong with me. Sometimes I just want to go off on someone and beat them until they're not breathing anymore. It's not even for attention or anything. I honestly want to take someone's life. In another entry, he wrote, I don't feel empathy or sympathy for anybody. Like, I just don't give a... You ever told your counselor about any of the thoughts that he has? I did a lot, and she didn't. She started with trying to treat the depression first. I don't know if this is fixed. Because it doesn't feel like some regular emotion. This feels like it's natural and I don't want it to be. I don't. Anything can be fixed. Yeah. Gavin had been in counseling on and off for years and was diagnosed with ADHD and depression. Another entry Gavin made in his journal highlighted his depravity. He wrote, I think if counseling doesn't help, I'm honestly going to kill someone. I'll probably take a girl out to the woods and rape her and kill her. I wouldn't feel bad about it, but I know it's wrong. We might never know exactly how much Gavin told his counselor, but he appears to have been very upfront with his co-worker Haley. Haley shared a Snapchat conversation with police, in which Gavin told her flat out, quote, I watched one of those videos on YouTube and I laughed. And I'm pretty sure I could kill someone in cold blood and not feel guilty or sad or anything. Chillingly, when police spoke with Haley, she told them that she had no problem believing the despicable things Gavin had done to Margaret. But police still hadn't uncovered the full story. So what did you do with your gloves when you left? We moved away. Where at? In the trash can. In the trash can? At home. Because there was a glove there. Could you have dropped one? There wasn't one there? I guess I did drop one, huh? Gavin said the gloves just happened to be with him from when he cleaned the bathroom at home several days earlier. However, it wasn't the presence of the gloves that police were most interested in. There was something far more disturbing that they had discovered. There was purple stuff on it. What was the purple stuff that was on it? I get it that there's a whole piece of this that you don't understand why you do, okay? I understand the whole piece that you don't understand. Did the purple stuff have to do with the whole piece that you don't understand why you do? No. The purple stuff, what about jelly? I don't even know where that came into play yet. Did you maybe use it like kind of as a lubricant for something? Is there a part you don't understand or is there a part just embarrassing? In your own mind. You know what I mean? In your own mind. It's okay. I'm saying we understand you. It's an embarrassing part. You're not sure we understand that part. I mean, it's okay that we understand it that way. Something I don't understand. I didn't have anything to do with it. But you put the jelly on the glove. Is that when you used her hand to rub your... This vile post-mortem assault was the nauseating reason the blackberry jam was found in the living room. Testing on the jar revealed the presence of male DNA, though it could not be matched specifically to Gavin. Similar testing revealed Margaret's DNA on the outside of the gloves and Gavin's on the inside, along with evidence of sperm. Male DNA was also found on her ripped underwear. And still, the horror continued. And at the same time that you were taking some of those pictures? Yeah, after I took those pictures, I was like, what? That's when the shots hit in? Yeah, I was like, what am I doing? Yet Gavin still continued taking pictures. In addition to taking photographs of Margaret while she slept, unaware of the danger, he also documented the revolting process of violating her dead body. Now there's a couple of videos of you kind of peeking over the edge of the couch and videotaping her. When was that all done? That was on the same night. Why did I lie about anything that was stupid? Like, I turned the corner and didn't see her. And you hid? Yeah, then I hid. I was taking my phone. I was taking pictures to see if she was awake. I got you. And then she saw you. And you stood up and she saw you. All of the photos and videos of Margaret were discovered in a hidden app on Gavin's phone, labeled Dark. It was password protected with the word murder. As if that wasn't enough, something else police found on Gavin's phone only solidified the case against him. The day Margaret's body was found, Chris Ramsey sent a text to her son alerting him of the police presence in their neighborhood, which said, they're looking for someone. Gavin's casual reply of, well, that's Wadsworth for you, was undercut by the fact that he then immediately looked up Margaret Douglas dead. and Margaret Douglas Wadsworth, Ohio. He deleted the search history, but forensic technicians were able to recover the information. Damningly, at the time of Gavin's search, Margaret's death had not yet been publicized. There was only one horrible way he could have known why the police were there and what had happened. Did you mean to hurt Margaret like that? No, no. Please note that at this point, the male detective stepped out for a moment, leaving Gavin alone with the female detective. I feel like bad about what I did. Like I, I don't, like I feel bad. I know it's wrong, but I can't express the emotion. Once again, Gavin's journal suggested a far more wicked truth. He wrote, I don't care that I feel the way I do, but I need counseling before I completely go off the deep end and do something that literally ruins my life. I wouldn't feel bad if I killed someone. but I don't want to sit in f***ing prison. There's a subtle upward inflection when Gavin says, I'm sorry. His monotonous and emotionless tone is a stark contrast from earlier. It appears he can cry for himself, but not others. Still, Gavin seemed to find something else far more troubling than the life he took. Gavin's parents waited in the lobby of the police station for the duration of their son's interrogation. To say they were distraught when the police broke the news that their son was a killer would be an understatement. All the phone contained images of Margaret before and after her death, as well as videos of your son with her. Okay. Okay. Um, engaging... ...acts with her. Sit down. Was she alive when he was in there? I don't believe it. Oh my God. This isn't happening. This isn't real. Oh my God. I wanted you to know, I spoke to the director of the juvenile detention facility. I explained the situation. I explained that he was highly emotionally distraught. I asked him to watch. I've asked him to take, you know, to keep your 24-7 observation. I know this is an emotionally devastating situation. I'm distraught right now. It's a horrible set of circumstances. we deserve to know he will be tried as an adult. Oh my God. Oh my God. He's 98 years old. Just living out her days. And here's my son. My son. And I'm motherf***ing all these people out here. And it's my son. Is Gavin Anderson going to prison? Incidentally, Gavin was wondering the same thing. What do you think is even going to happen with me? I think you're going to go to juvenile detention. You're going to get some time in jail. Who do you think? I don't know. I just don't know, guys. I'll be on this Saturday. Night. Five days from now, I was gone. I was leaving. You're going to run? Because the only reason I didn't yesterday is because I knew my mom just took out my money for my insurance. And I knew my insurance doubled, so I'd like no money. Well, Gavin, I'm glad it's going to stop here. I'm glad this didn't go any further. Because I don't know that you would have been able to change on your own. No, I wouldn't. And I don't know. I had a pretty clear picture of what the next year would look like if I ran. Unfortunately, I think you would have hurt more people. Was that in your plan? I mean, that wasn't in my plan, but I could see that happening. On January 18, 2019, Gavin was convicted of aggravated murder. aggravated burglary, kidnapping, and abuse of a corpse. He was given a life sentence for murder along with 10 years each for burglary and kidnapping and an additional year for kidnapping to be served consecutively. Originally, he was meant to serve life in prison without the possibility of parole, but changing legislation for minors who were tried as adults renders Gavin eligible for release after 25 years in 2043.

but would still lead to a truth so disturbing it would stick with the investigators for the rest of their careers. When police brought a 17-year-old Gavin Ramsey into the station on April 13, 2018, to talk about breaking curfew and the increase of crimes in his neighborhood, they had no idea what they were getting into. Gavin was accompanied by his mother, Chris, and the police informed them both that he was not under arrest and could leave at any time.

Some of the following footage has never been seen before. Gavin, does your mom know why you're here? I think so.

Well, he said he climbed on top of the church. Yeah. I thought there's got to be more to that story because I wouldn't be going down here and picking up a pole if that's what you did.

The police were already well acquainted with Gavin. Lately, he appeared to have made a habit of going out at night to get up to all manner of mischief. This time, Gavin told a story about secretly meeting up with his friend, Brayden.

We weren't really doing anything. Then we went over to the church and climbed on top. And then we went, like, into the courtyard.

But that's all we did. Now, you did more. Unfortunately, you guys have left behind some very telling items.

Okay. If we're going to get to the bottom of this, let's just make it the truth all at once. Let's deal with it and get it done. That's not a team. Yeah.

You're a kid, so you're not looking at as much trouble. The officer might come to regret this comment once she uncovers the full extent of Gavin's crimes. For now, all the police knew was that Gavin had been out after his curfew, but that was barely scraping the surface.

Since he was staying rather tight-lipped, they also attempted to get the story from his friend, Braden. Your phone? Yes.

Where do you think you left it? That I have no idea. What were you doing?

Just out walking around. I actually had, I forget the officer's name, but somebody stopped me and I talked to him for a little bit. I guess he was out looking for somebody. Who were you walking around with? Nobody.

There was a very good reason the police were out looking for someone. They had no idea how close they'd come to catching their culprit that night. Maybe it's in the lighter? Mm-mm. No?

Would you be surprised if I told you there was a lighter with your phone? Honestly, yes. Okay.

Gavin and Brayden had a problem. In addition to the phone and lighter left at the church, the police also had security footage of the boys. When Brayden was confronted with this, his story changed.

If you just want to be honest with me, that would be great. And if not, I can just say that you said you were nowhere near and here's the video. I mean. Okay.

I appreciate, I guess. The straight up-ness. I do, honestly. I was out with a friend. We were just messing around, and I'm not exactly sure what church that is, but we decided to get up on top of the roof, and then we dropped down to see if one of the doors were open, and then a silent alarm.

Not really silent. We heard it. We saw an officer walking from the church and then we ran from him. So was that Gavin's green lighter then? Or yours?

Green lighter, that would be Gavin's. When he found out Braden was talking to police, Gavin confirmed the story about the alarm. This would be the first in a series of confessions he would make over the coming days.

I didn't even know what was going on because we were by the windows and they were already cracked open. And, like, we were just messing with them. Like, they were honestly cracked open. I'm not lying anymore. This immediately raises the question of what else Gavin had lied about.

You'd think that would be enough to scare the bejeebies out of you. Yeah. And go home.

Were you guys going to hide in the trailer? No. What did you do with the trailer? I poked my knife behind the little seam and popped it out. Why were you guys going to go in there?

I don't know. We honestly had nothing to do. And me and Brayden together, we know it's not good. But, I don't know, we're good friends. We just hang out.

According to Gavin's mother, her son wasn't supposed to be hanging out with Brayden. This restriction didn't appear to have the intended effect, but that would soon be inconsequential compared to what else Gavin had been up to. Did you guys do anything else in the area?

No. So you guys didn't go into any cars? You know what? It would make me feel a lot better now if it was just the two of you that went into the cars. Yeah.

You know, because of the other issue in the area. I didn't even know there was a car issue in the area. Oh, God. Yeah. You guys didn't...

Now would be the time to tell, okay? Because we processed the cards. We did fingerprints and DNA.

He's been in trouble. I would assume you were with him at Central Intermediate School? Yes. Yes. So your DNA is on file as well.

So that's all going to come up. If it's you guys, for goodness sakes, it's just rummaging through cards, and nothing was even taken. That's... They could tell.

We've had a lot of goings-on. in your neighborhood lately? And probably more than the general public is aware.

I'm sure. I'm sure. More than one incident. More than one incident. Okay.

Unfortunately, we're trying to see if, you know, they're all related. Right. The most extreme recent crime in the area came to the attention of police just a week earlier when they received a troubling call. which would kick off a case more disturbing than anyone could have anticipated.

At first, they never imagined it was connected to Gavin's nighttime mischief, but would come to find that the cases were inextricable. Roger, police? Yes, this is Howard Leisure.

My aunt lives on Portage Street. Okay. And a friend of ours stopped over there yesterday to check on her, and she was nowhere to be found. We didn't know if you found anybody wandering.

No, we don't have any reports of anybody wandering. We can't find her in the house anywhere. He went in the house and looked through the whole house, couldn't find her.

We don't know where she's at. She's 98 years old. Does she live there by herself? She lives there by herself, yes.

What's her name? Margaret Douglas. And she never locks her house.

Okay. She doesn't drive. She doesn't have a car. And I checked with the relatives I had phone numbers for, and nobody served from her or picked her up.

Okay. This was obviously worrying. But Margaret's disappearance would only become more harrowing as the search got underway. When the police were chatting with Gavin in the first of two interviews, they attempted to uncover what else he might have gotten up to on recent nights.

I'm guessing this isn't the first time yet. Well, no, like we've snuck out in the past before, but since I've got in trouble, this most recent one, like without the law, I haven't really snuck out at all. When was the recent time that you got in trouble? He has not had any freedom at all. I mean, he literally goes to work and home probably three months because he makes bad choices.

And we're just not, we don't want that for our kids. So he literally has no life. At least that's what Chris thought. She clearly had no idea just how busy her son had been. Police had unwittingly started the process of uncovering the truth of Gavin's activities the previous week when talking to Margaret Douglas'nephew, Howard.

Desperate to find his aunt and willing to help in any way he could, Howard and his wife, Cindy, went to the police station to answer questions. So when was the last time you guys were there? That was, I'm thinking that was, it was a Tuesday in March 27th, I think it might have been. Anything that anybody said?

It set off an alarm? No. No.

Margaret bothered me a lot. That's why it's so just horrible. She would keep in her sleep. And so this past Sunday, David called us. David, who had grown up next door to Margaret and her late husband, was the couple's friend and caretaker.

The police would need to talk to him too, sooner rather than later. During Gavin's first interview, things got progressively more disturbing as well. But police could never have guessed that his tale would eventually become a full-blown horror story.

Did you rummage through glove boxes or anything? Yeah. And you didn't take not even change or anything?

Maybe like 50 times, but other than that, seriously, nothing. What did you do with somebody that's in my car? That is so upsetting and scary.

I understand that, but... really their own fault for not locking me up. Yeah, I locked my house time.

Because I did. It's not the point. It's not your work.

Gavin's crimes would only escalate from this point on. The previous week, with no idea that they were working on a connected case, the police met with Margaret's friend David. What he told them would prove to be invaluable, though it was far from reassuring.

And I came up Sunday and Gavin. including the basement, but couldn't find Margaret, where she was ultimately found would sicken and outrage everyone who cared about her. During the first conversation with Gavin, which took place a week after Margaret's disappearance, it became obvious that he'd been up to far worse things than he initially let on.

We had a carjacking. Oh my God. And the is a young white male with a nice complexion. And blue eyes?

Is that you? No, it's not me. I wouldn't have the first thing about jacking a car.

The proximity of the crimes was more than slightly suspicious, and the police likely believed Gavin was still holding back. They had unknowingly drawn closer to the heart of Gavin's dark secrets when Margaret's friend David recounted not being able to find her. Little did anyone know that this would be the lead-up to a stomach-churning discovery.

When Howard still couldn't reach Margaret the next morning, he went to the house in person. Meanwhile, David also called some of Margaret's other friends and neighbors, but they hadn't heard from her either. No, I made it on her phone there on the desk. It's the old-style phone. Oh, the rotary phone?

Yeah, the rotary phone. Okay. Yeah, and I called my dad.

You don't want to use that digital phone? Well, it wasn't in the bracket. Oh, okay.

Where she kept it. The missing phone would also turn out to have shocking implications, along with a few other seemingly innocuous observations made by Howard and his wife. I know we were able to find her wallet and checkbook. Can you describe her wallet to me?

Her wallet is red. It's about, I would say, rectangle. I would say maybe four inches in width.

Do you remember the location of the heater when you were there? Oh yeah, it was right smack in front of the closet door. And actually that thought hit my mind. When they asked me to look for her coat, I went over there and I thought, why did Margaret put that heater in front of the door?

The odd placement of the heater would come up again later. Perhaps the strangest thing was a jar of blackberry jam in Margaret's living room. There would turn out to be a sick reason it was there. But nobody knew that yet.

Gavin's second interview, however, would eventually tell all. After searching the house twice and finding no sign of Margaret, Howard and Cindy decided it was time to call the police. When they arrived, Howard helped them search the house yet again, which is when the case took a turn.

During their first conversation with Gavin, the police brought up the terrible results of that search. There's no reason for me to fluff anything up. Nope.

And I'm sure you guys know about the elderly woman that was coming. Oh my God, that was horrifying. That was horrifying. It is horrifying. Did you know her at all?

No, I was going to just to see her out, like on a porch. I just, that actually makes me want to cry. Like, how do you get to be 98 years old?

Nobody lives to be 98. It's so rare. And someone else felt that that was okay. Like, how did that, I don't know.

Like, why does your life end like that? That's right. Margaret lived just around the corner from Gavin. Tragically, she'd been found deceased.

She'd been strangled and her body hidden inside her own home. But the most horrifying facts of what was done to her body after death were not yet known. The answer of who was twisted enough to commit such a crime would hit far closer to home. than anyone anticipated. And then I'd get all scared.

I'm like, oh my God, I have all my porch lights on now and I have stranger danger issues. The irony of Chris's stranger danger issues would not be lost for long. I can't imagine you doing something like that.

No. Just interacting with you this little bit, I can't imagine us in your wheelhouse. No. But there was so much about Gavin that nobody knew.

I don't know what to say. Is there more? Because you know it all comes out.

No, it's not that there's anything more. It's what the f***, dude? What if I always told you kids what happens in the dark comes out in the light? That's the way it works.

You mess up, you get caught. You make bad choices, you're going to pay for it. So if there's something else, let's get it all out on the table.

So that we know what we're dealing with. It's not anything else. It's... I don't know. I'm mad at myself.

I'm so mad at myself. What are you so mad at yourself for? I was 16, 30, and a f***ing belly in like five minutes of years.

And now I'm going to be in more trouble. I have to go back to court. And I'm done with it. I'm so done with it. I'm costing them thousands of dollars.

Constantly heartbreak. I've honestly probably never made it either. I'm proud. I don't do anything good.

Stop coughing. You didn't take anybody's car? Have you ever used an app called Grindr?

No. How do you feel about gay people? I'm not gay.

Oh, that's okay. But they don't bother you? This might seem like a strange line of questioning, but there's a very good reason the detective is asking this question.

It likely evoked a feeling of dread for Gavin as it means that the police know far more than they've been letting on. Earlier, the police kept trying to determine what could have motivated someone to kill Margaret in such an atrocious manner. or that we're getting any.

The detective once again pushed harder for answers from Gavin, leading him to make an unexpected request. Is there something else you need to tell us? What's upsetting you so much? Nothing.

The detective clearly hit on something. I think you two actually leave for a second. What's that?

You two actually leave. So I can talk to her? Yeah.

Okay. Knowing what had happened to Margaret, Gavin's mother was likely terrified of what her son didn't want to say in front of her. As it turns out, she had good reason to be concerned.

Gavin was also unable to hide his emotions in the interrogation room. But this didn't stop him from giving the detective at least one of the answers she wanted. Finally addressing the previous question about meeting up with someone from Grindr.

But this was only one of the many secrets she would convince Gavin to spill. The car dressing, it, okay, it was me. I'm going to be honest about it, but the way that he explained it, that guy, that's not right. That grinder thing, yeah, I have been on it.

And this guy was like the first time that this happened, and I told him, like, I was 17 and everything, and I wasn't planning on doing anything with him. It's not my style. I was just, like, even for you, a man, trying to... get with a 17 year old so I was just gonna rob him it's like it's still messed up but I guess what he's doing I don't really think it is and then the whole carjacking thing I didn't I never even left overlook I literally like I got in and he's like what should we go to the backseat I'm like yeah shit so he got out I stand and lock the doors and Hopped in the driver's seat and just drove around, messed with him, and then I left. Do you have his wallet?

No. No, that's because I kept asking him. Like, I cracked the window of the car.

Like, he walked up, doors locked, everything. I'm like, where's your wallet? And he's like, I don't have it.

So then, you know, I opened his glove box and all that. And I'm like, well, show me your pockets. And he's like, I don't have it, but can I have my phone? I'm like, no.

And then I... turned and he like tried to grab the window and like break it and then I just I gassed it and he walked and that's when he left Overlook and then I went up to like where the dumpsters are you know where that white van is yeah that's where the car was. Gavin added that he threw the man's phone out the window shortly before he abandoned the car then blocked the man on Grindr. Believe it or not all of this would be connected to Margaret's death in the coming days. I don't even have the act anymore, I deleted it after that night.

I just, I didn't want to say that in front of my mom. Are you gay? No, that's not it. Like, I didn't have any plans to do anything. What was he thinking was going to happen?

I mean... Was there an act that you guys agreed upon? Not really, no.

Just, like... NSA. I didn't even know what that meant, but it means no strings attached. Okay.

Did he touch you at all? No. Did you touch him at all?

No. Why were you on that app? Really just for that reason, to find guys that are that low, or people, I guess. That want to get with kids?

Like, it's karma, really. Like, if you're going to do that, then I'm going to rob you. The carjacking would be completely overshadowed by what else Gavin had done. The police got a hint of the madness to come while searching Margaret's home, though they couldn't have imagined the nightmare they had uncovered. You didn't hurt that old lady, did you?

No, and that's what I was pissed about earlier. What were you pissed about? Because, and I see people that do the video killing the girl, and that's, like I've just had some dark stuff and everything, and like, I don't know, people know, like, I'm a dark person, I guess, but like, I'm not gonna go kill somebody.

It's not like that. But the people in the class are like, oh, you killed her, didn't you? I really feel like you did.

I'm like, no, I didn't. So people are saying this? Yeah, and that's...

It's making me really mad. It really is. There was no reason that we would find your DNA inside her house, because we swabbed the hell out of that house.

You shouldn't. What do you think should happen to somebody that does that? That kills someone?

Kills a 98-year-old woman. I don't know. I think iFerni is the best way to go.

That's how I look at things, is iFerni. I mean, if it makes you feel better, I will give them your name and let them know your DNA is on file, and they can rule you out. Okay, when we get a DNA profile. Would that help you? I mean, what, for, like, the lady?

I mean, that doesn't bother me. Brayden's DNA was also on record and would be compared to the crime scene. Howard, Cindy, and David all agreed to provide the police with DNA samples and fingerprints so they could be ruled out as suspects.

Are you sure your mom's DNA isn't freaking out? Yeah, she probably thinks I'm contesting the murder. She's been in here so long. Just three days later, this remark would be cast in a chilling new light. Why would you even hear about an act like that?

Why would you even do that? I don't know. Like I said, Mom, I don't know why I do anything, but I do.

That sounds all vigilante crazy to me. That's what that sounds like. So that will get forwarded also, and then God only knows what that charge is going to look like. Do you see how all these horrible things kind of tie together? And you start to get pretty worried about what's happening, especially with the escalation of...

Yeah. You know, if there's something else or somebody else that you know is out there doing stupid crap, can you keep it on the down low? I will. Your name won't cross my lips, but I need to get to the bottom of what happened to this poor woman. While Gavin assured the detective that he'd told her everything, the bulk of his secrets had not yet been spilled, unaware of what her son had done.

Chris permitted the police to search Gavin's phone. With that, they left the police department. When it came to the phone, the investigators were mainly looking for anything about the carjacking. Instead, they found something completely unexpected. It was awful enough that two detectives rushed to the Ramsey house to place him under arrest.

Take note that he was made aware of his Miranda rights as soon as he was seated in the police car. When you had your mom leave the room the other day, were you going to tell me this? No, this was a project.

I thought about it, but I didn't know what to do. Did you know I'd be coming to see you after we got your phone? I figured. As soon as I heard the knock on the door, I honestly, if my boots were tied, I think I would.

When the detective ushered Gavin into the video-recorded interrogation room, Are you sure I can't get you a drink? I'm telling me about it doesn't give you much relief. It just turns in fact and ruins my life.

We can't go back and change it. No. At this point, we just have to figure out what's going on with you, okay? And you didn't take anything from the house. Like I said before, it doesn't make a difference either way.

I mean, what other crime could I commit that would really matter at this point? Grandpa? Can you breathe in?

Yeah. Once Gavin was uncuffed, the detective set about filling in the specifics of the gruesome yet patchy tale Gavin shared on the drive to the station. The truth was about to come out once and for all. But each detail would make it more horrific than anyone could have imagined.

Did you want to have to initially just steal something? Just honestly, all I did was I wanted the adrenaline rush. Oh, I just thought about something.

Yeah. I think that's why I broke into the car and stuff. It's that risk factor. And all I've ever done is take risks because that's the only thing that makes me.

That's your drug, adrenaline? Yeah, like, I don't know, it feels real to me. When I'm having adrenaline, it's like, alright. You feel alive? Yeah.

Like there's meaning to you, right? I don't know about meaning, but... But you understand, like, you feel like... Yeah, it feels different, like, I don't know how to explain that.

Any bad stuff inside you goes away. This tied back to something unsettling Gavin had said in the car on the way to the police station. Gavin continued his story, and he revealed that his meeting with the man from Grindr hadn't gone quite like he previously said. Some physical stuff that went on between the two of you in the car, right?

Yeah. First time? Officially, I guess.

Yeah. Stuff happened when I was younger. It wasn't voluntary for me.

You just weren't sure? Like when you got there, it's kind of like, here's the plan, and things just start happening. Yeah, I know that's kind of freaked me out a little bit. What for Joe? Your reaction to it or him?

I don't know, just once I realized I was in the back of a car with some guy. I realized I was crazy. Yeah, and I didn't want to be part of it anymore. Had you met anybody on the ground floor before?

I had, yeah, before. So your whole intention of going into the house was just the adrenaline being in somebody's house? Yeah, and then when I robbed the house.

It was just the sneaky thrill of, can I get into somebody's house and get out and get away with it? Yeah, but if the door was locked, I wouldn't have just walked away. The whole breaking into the house, that was the adrenaline part. I think I didn't even have a grip on reality whenever I did that.

You can probably guess whose house Gavin entered. As terrifying as this was, what he did next was truly mind-boggling. I didn't know whose house it was at first until I saw her. I knew she didn't use it.

Had you talked to her before? I know we discussed this a couple times, but... She was going to, like, when I was 13 or 14, going to shovel jackpots and stuff. You know, when I was actually doing something good.

And nobody was with you this night? And you've not told anybody about this? No, nobody knows about this. Was it dark when you went outside the house?

No lights on, nothing? None at all? Well, none of it was.

The lamp, the lamp was on. Were you in her house for a little while before you woke her up? I mean, I, like, I came up on the porch.

And I didn't even know what I was going to do. And I looked in the window and everything. I don't know, I felt like going into a house is like the biggest adrenaline rush I could get, I guess.

So then I tried the doorknob and it just happened to be unlocked. Was it the front door or back door? The front door or back door.

Well, she was already asleep when it right went in. because when I came around the corner, that's where I saw her and it scared me. I didn't expect to see someone right there.

I didn't hear anything. So I came in, like, I opened the door and I just listened. I didn't hear anything, so maybe nobody saw me.

And then I go to walk around that corner and I think I'm still going slow, but I see her and she's, I don't know, like sleeping or something. And I go to turn around and hit the chair. And it made a noise and she woke up.

And she started to scream at that point, you said? Yeah, because when I hit the chair, I turned back around and I looked and she was there staring at me and started to yell. And then went for the phone. She heard me. I don't know what it looked like.

Was that when you were trying to get the phone away from her so she could call? Did you knock that guy over here or is that you guys'father on the phone? It was like a little bit of a fight, I think. I think I threw it under the couch. I'm not really sure.

By the time I even realized what I was doing, it was too late to stop anything. And you realized that you were on the floor on top of her with your hands on her and stuff. That's when it was okay. Gavin showed the police an injury on his hand where Margaret's nails dug into his arm.

He had other scrapes on his hands, but claimed these were unrelated. Margaret never stood a chance in the fight against Gavin, which likely made her final moments even more horrendous. So when she died, was she on the couch or on the floor? Floor. Were you on top of her then?

Kind of. Like straddling her? Yeah. And did you use one hand or both?

Both. Did you squeeze it or push her against the floor or both? Both. And you said you don't remember if she was bleeding at that point?

The only thing I can think of bleeding is when I put my hand over her mouth. When you were holding your hand over her mouth, you had to push too hard and maybe made her nose bleed? Yeah. The detectives knew Gavin had skipped over several particularly nauseating details, but those would eventually come out too. So how long do you think you were in the house before you woke her up?

I don't know, probably like 10, 15 minutes. And then from the time you woke her up to the time you ended up on top of her children, how long did that whole part take? Probably like five minutes. Was she like fighting back, even trying to struggle, and then you guys went down? Yeah.

I think on her way down was when we got ripped. But you don't remember ripping her panties? Margaret's underwear was not just torn, but completely ripped from her body. Her bloody nightgown and bra were pushed up around her upper body.

Fearing the implications, crime scene investigators swabbed all of Margaret's clothing, her body. and the items in the closet. The results would once again emphasize how reprehensible this crime was.

Did she say anything to you when this was happening? Did you say anything to her? No, I didn't.

It happened. It happened quick. The level of indignity Margaret's body was subjected to was further emphasized in the detective's conversation with Margaret's nephew, Howard. And how many times did you guys go into the closet?

I went in twice. When we first got there, the first thing I did was open the closet, but I had to move that heater from in front of the door. It's never there.

Can you tell me how it was positioned in front of the door? It was flat against the door. I just put my fingers underneath the top lip. and I lift it up and set it out of the way the first time I looked. Then I wanted to make sure to put it back the way it was, so I moved it back.

Howard said his wife Cindy also moved the heater twice to look in the closet for Margaret's coat to see if she might have left. However, the coat was found in the closet, though it wasn't on the hanger where it belonged. Howard's second foray into the closet was life-altering. That's when I noticed the tennis shoe.

So I tried to pick it up, I couldn't pick it up. I'm thinking, what's holding the shoe? So I said, why don't I grab another piece of clothing and throw it back? I've never seen this before in my life. White, you know, and I touched it, it was cold, felt clammy, but it felt like styrofoam to me.

So I moved it. You alright? Give me a minute.

Yep. So I moved another piece of clothing and that's when I tinkled down like this and I felt it. Up in front of the leg and I felt it the same way. I think, why has she got thyroid foam in here? What is it?

Then it hit me. That took you a minute to realize that it was her in there? Yes, it did. Margaret's other shoe was also found in the closet, carelessly thrown on top of her, along with other items from the closet. It appeared that Gavin had pulled items down at random in an effort to conceal the body.

I took a minute to realize what it was. Oh, yeah. Oh, God.

Well, she didn't get in there herself. I know. She wasn't going to eat her by herself or cover herself up.

I know that. When Margaret's body was removed from the closet, police made the skin-crawling discovery that she'd been laying on top of her torn underwear. How long did you stay there before you put her in the closet? That was probably like 30 minutes.

I just kind of sat there and I didn't know like what was going on. Like I was so in shock. And then I checked my phone and it said it was like four something. And I knew my mom had to get up at five for work.

So then you made the decision then? Did you look around for another place to put her or was that just the first place you came along? I guess I was just the first place considering my time with it.

And then you drug her by her feet, you said, to the closet. What part of her body did you put in there first? I think it was her head that went in first. Did you close the closet door?

Did you put that heater in front of the door? Yeah. The closet where Margaret's body was found was only about two and three quarters feet wide by one and three quarters feet deep. In order to make her body fit, Gavin contorted and shoved her into the space, face down with her knees bent and arms folded.

And you didn't take her wallet? Nobody cares about the 60 or 80 bucks. Yeah, nobody cares about anything in there. The trash was long gone by this point, but that didn't turn out to be an issue. Police once again involved Gavin's parents, who had followed the arrest team to the police station to help them with their investigation.

We'll explain later. Maybe go to Uncle David's and just hang there and we'll call you when you can come home. No, everything's not already back, but don't tell your brothers right now.

Once Gavin's three brothers were out of the house, the police carried out a search warrant. Their efforts were not in vain. Tucked away in the back of a dresser drawer with Gavin's jeans, the police located Margaret's missing red wallet.

Gavin confessed he'd spent all the cash on cigarettes, but Margaret's cards were all accounted for. However, the wallet wasn't the only item of interest. I can't handle myself when I'm sober.

I can't, like, comprehend. I don't even know the words to use. My thoughts when I'm sober are dark. When I'm high, they're, like, good thoughts. Have you ever thought about harming anybody before or taking someone's life before?

Not, like, planning it out, but, like, oh, I'm so mad I could go kill somebody. someone right now. Like that kind of thing.

But you never imagined yourself actually doing it? No. I could never envision myself. Gavin shared with the police that he had struggled with the urge to take his own life.

He refrained, he said, for the sake of his mother, who would have been heartbroken. I mean, I've wondered what killing somebody would feel like, but I've also wondered what jumping off a building would feel like. So it's not like anything about this was premeditated. During their search, police came across a journal in his bedroom that would prove that once again...

Gavin was not sharing the whole truth. The journal began with two research projects on the serial killers Donald Henry Gaskins and Ted Bundy. After this, the entries transitioned to ideas for skits and short films. Chillingly, in each one, Gavin played the role of a killer.

The victim in almost every story was to be played by Brayden. As skin-crawling as this was, the entries containing Gavin's personal thoughts were by far the most disturbing. In one, Gavin wrote, I want to know what's wrong with me. Sometimes I just want to go off on someone and beat them until they're not breathing anymore. It's not even for attention or anything.

I honestly want to take someone's life. In another entry, he wrote, I don't feel empathy or sympathy for anybody. Like, I just don't give a... You ever told your counselor about any of the thoughts that he has?

I did a lot, and she didn't. She started with trying to treat the depression first. I don't know if this is fixed. Because it doesn't feel like some regular emotion.

This feels like it's natural and I don't want it to be. I don't. Anything can be fixed.

Yeah. Gavin had been in counseling on and off for years and was diagnosed with ADHD and depression. Another entry Gavin made in his journal highlighted his depravity. He wrote, I think if counseling doesn't help, I'm honestly going to kill someone. I'll probably take a girl out to the woods and rape her and kill her.

I wouldn't feel bad about it, but I know it's wrong. We might never know exactly how much Gavin told his counselor, but he appears to have been very upfront with his co-worker Haley. Haley shared a Snapchat conversation with police, in which Gavin told her flat out, quote, I watched one of those videos on YouTube and I laughed. And I'm pretty sure I could kill someone in cold blood and not feel guilty or sad or anything.

Chillingly, when police spoke with Haley, she told them that she had no problem believing the despicable things Gavin had done to Margaret. But police still hadn't uncovered the full story. So what did you do with your gloves when you left?

We moved away. Where at? In the trash can.

In the trash can? At home. Because there was a glove there.

Could you have dropped one? There wasn't one there? I guess I did drop one, huh?

Gavin said the gloves just happened to be with him from when he cleaned the bathroom at home several days earlier. However, it wasn't the presence of the gloves that police were most interested in. There was something far more disturbing that they had discovered.

There was purple stuff on it. What was the purple stuff that was on it? I get it that there's a whole piece of this that you don't understand why you do, okay?

I understand the whole piece that you don't understand. Did the purple stuff have to do with the whole piece that you don't understand why you do? No.

The purple stuff, what about jelly? I don't even know where that came into play yet. Did you maybe use it like kind of as a lubricant for something?

Is there a part you don't understand or is there a part just embarrassing? In your own mind. You know what I mean? In your own mind. It's okay.

I'm saying we understand you. It's an embarrassing part. You're not sure we understand that part. I mean, it's okay that we understand it that way.

Something I don't understand. I didn't have anything to do with it. But you put the jelly on the glove.

Is that when you used her hand to rub your... This vile post-mortem assault was the nauseating reason the blackberry jam was found in the living room. Testing on the jar revealed the presence of male DNA, though it could not be matched specifically to Gavin. Similar testing revealed Margaret's DNA on the outside of the gloves and Gavin's on the inside, along with evidence of sperm.

Male DNA was also found on her ripped underwear. And still, the horror continued. And at the same time that you were taking some of those pictures?

Yeah, after I took those pictures, I was like, what? That's when the shots hit in? Yeah, I was like, what am I doing?

Yet Gavin still continued taking pictures. In addition to taking photographs of Margaret while she slept, unaware of the danger, he also documented the revolting process of violating her dead body. Now there's a couple of videos of you kind of peeking over the edge of the couch and videotaping her. When was that all done? That was on the same night.

Why did I lie about anything that was stupid? Like, I turned the corner and didn't see her. And you hid? Yeah, then I hid. I was taking my phone.

I was taking pictures to see if she was awake. I got you. And then she saw you. And you stood up and she saw you.

All of the photos and videos of Margaret were discovered in a hidden app on Gavin's phone, labeled Dark. It was password protected with the word murder. As if that wasn't enough, something else police found on Gavin's phone only solidified the case against him. The day Margaret's body was found, Chris Ramsey sent a text to her son alerting him of the police presence in their neighborhood, which said, they're looking for someone. Gavin's casual reply of, well, that's Wadsworth for you, was undercut by the fact that he then immediately looked up Margaret Douglas dead.

and Margaret Douglas Wadsworth, Ohio. He deleted the search history, but forensic technicians were able to recover the information. Damningly, at the time of Gavin's search, Margaret's death had not yet been publicized.

There was only one horrible way he could have known why the police were there and what had happened. Did you mean to hurt Margaret like that? No, no.

Please note that at this point, the male detective stepped out for a moment, leaving Gavin alone with the female detective. I feel like bad about what I did. Like I, I don't, like I feel bad.

I know it's wrong, but I can't express the emotion. Once again, Gavin's journal suggested a far more wicked truth. He wrote, I don't care that I feel the way I do, but I need counseling before I completely go off the deep end and do something that literally ruins my life.

I wouldn't feel bad if I killed someone. but I don't want to sit in f***ing prison. There's a subtle upward inflection when Gavin says, I'm sorry.

His monotonous and emotionless tone is a stark contrast from earlier. It appears he can cry for himself, but not others. Still, Gavin seemed to find something else far more troubling than the life he took. Gavin's parents waited in the lobby of the police station for the duration of their son's interrogation.

To say they were distraught when the police broke the news that their son was a killer would be an understatement. All the phone contained images of Margaret before and after her death, as well as videos of your son with her. Okay. Okay.

Um, engaging... ...acts with her. Sit down. Was she alive when he was in there? I don't believe it.

Oh my God. This isn't happening. This isn't real. Oh my God. I wanted you to know, I spoke to the director of the juvenile detention facility.

I explained the situation. I explained that he was highly emotionally distraught. I asked him to watch. I've asked him to take, you know, to keep your 24-7 observation. I know this is an emotionally devastating situation.

I'm distraught right now. It's a horrible set of circumstances. we deserve to know he will be tried as an adult. Oh my God.

Oh my God. He's 98 years old. Just living out her days.

And here's my son. My son. And I'm motherf***ing all these people out here.

And it's my son. Is Gavin Anderson going to prison? Incidentally, Gavin was wondering the same thing.

What do you think is even going to happen with me? I think you're going to go to juvenile detention. You're going to get some time in jail.

Who do you think? I don't know. I just don't know, guys. I'll be on this Saturday. Night.

Five days from now, I was gone. I was leaving. You're going to run? Because the only reason I didn't yesterday is because I knew my mom just took out my money for my insurance.

And I knew my insurance doubled, so I'd like no money. Well, Gavin, I'm glad it's going to stop here. I'm glad this didn't go any further.

Because I don't know that you would have been able to change on your own. No, I wouldn't. And I don't know.

I had a pretty clear picture of what the next year would look like if I ran. Unfortunately, I think you would have hurt more people. Was that in your plan? I mean, that wasn't in my plan, but I could see that happening. On January 18, 2019, Gavin was convicted of aggravated murder.

aggravated burglary, kidnapping, and abuse of a corpse. He was given a life sentence for murder along with 10 years each for burglary and kidnapping and an additional year for kidnapping to be served consecutively. Originally, he was meant to serve life in prison without the possibility of parole, but changing legislation for minors who were tried as adults renders Gavin eligible for release after 25 years in 2043.

Transcript for:Margaret Douglas Murder Investigation Overview

Transcript for:
Margaret Douglas Murder Investigation Overview