Transcript for:
2025 Kerry Roberts

You saw destroy the court and jury the case down here for the truth. The whole truth and nothing but the All right, Mr. Brennan, whenever you're ready. Thank you, Miss Roberts. Good afternoon, ma'am. Good afternoon. Could you please um introduce yourself to this jury? Um, hi. My name is Carrie Roberts. M. Roberts, where do you live? I live in Canton, Massachusetts. How long have you lived in the area for? Um, I was raised in the Boston area, Northshore, Southshore. Um, I went to high school in Brainree and I moved to Canton about 12 years ago. Do you live alone? No, I live with my husband and two children. How old are your children presently this day? Uh my son is 13, my daughter's 15. Do you work? Yes, I do. Without identifying specifically where, can you share with us a little bit about what you do? I'm an executive assistant. Um and I've been with my company for 18 years. Ma'am, um if you could just move the microphone just a tiny bit closer. Thank you very much. You have two children. You're married? Yes. And you live in the area? Yes. I want you to tell us whether you know a person by the name of John O'Keefe. Yes, I do. Would you be willing to share with us when you first met Mr. O'Keefe? Um, well, I went to high school with John in Brainree. Um, he played soccer, I played soccer, so we probably hung out in middle school, but we went to two different middle schools. Um, and then I hung out with him more in high school. He was a year older than me. Um, his sister was two years older than him in school and his brother was younger. So, at some point I was in high school with each of his siblings. Did you at some point become friendly with John O'Keefe? Yes. Could you tell us about that? Um, when his sister Kristen passed away, um, and then her husband Steve passed away, John they lived in my neighborhood. Um, John took over for the children and moved into my neighborhood as well. When John took in the children, did you offer any assistance or any help to him? Yes. When John, well, before John was even going to take over, he was going to potentially move in with his brother-in-law and the children to help out. And then when his brother-in-law uh passed away unexpectedly, John took over and I jumped in because I was a friend from high school that he knew and he had all kinds of people helping, but he sort of said, "I'm going to lean on you for right now cuz I know you best." Um, and I knew his parents and his siblings. And so my h I introduced him to my husband and we jumped in. It was, you know, preschool drop offs, preschool pickups for my son and and his son. Um, and just from then until the time of his death, we were just friends, very close friends, and we hung out all the time. The children hung out all the time, and he was the emergency contact list at my children's school to call if something had happened. Were you close friends before he took over the care of the children? No, I wasn't very close friends with him then. Were you close with his family before he took over care of the children? No. Did your friendship with him develop after he took care of the children? Yes. You mentioned you have a son. Yes, I do. And is your son the same age as John's nephew? Yes. Was there any common interest or activities that engaged your son with John's nephew? Well, they went to inhome daycare together. They went to um preschool together. They went to prek together. and they went to elementary school. Um, they played baseball together since they were te-ball. My son plays hockey. Patrick tried hockey. He didn't like that. So, we spent a lot of time at the baseball fields together. As you spent a lot of time together and had mutual care of children, did your relationship with him grow closer? Yes. And can you share a little bit with the jury how close you became? Well, John was a bachelor and he didn't have any children of his own. So, when he took over for the children, he sort of, you know, leaned on us to kind of guide him and, you know, all the things to do if if there's a someone with a headache and, you know, if there's an ear infection or, you know, he had his mom and dad also helping as well, but I was right up the street. So, if I would go to BJ's, I would call and say, you know, can I grab you anything? um if I would go to Walmart, you know, any of the places I would go, I would call and say, "Do you need anything? Can I help you? Can I grab something for you?" And he did the same. We just sort of all chipped in and helped. As your friendship grew, um could you tell us a little bit about your relationship with John? Um John and I were very close. We spoke on the phone and hung out. He became very close with my husband as well because he was right down the street. Um, but we just we just had a friendship, a very close friendship. Tell us about the day-to-day activities and how you would try to assist John with the children. Um, well, John moved across town. Um, I don't remember when. I forget how many. Patrick, I think was in fifth grade or fourth grade. And I would take him home with me on Wednesdays because John would be working. So it was more of a, you know, and if he was at my house and my daughter needed a ride at the other side of town, he would take her with him. Um, we were just very close friends. We did a lot together. We would do baseball tournaments together. We would have drinks together. We would, you know, all the things friends do. As you grew closer to John and helped with the children, did you become closer with his family? Yes. And who specifically did you become closer with? Um, Mrs. Mrs. O'Keefe and Mr. O'Keefe. Um, his parents. Um, and Paul I would see from time to time, but not a lot. He doesn't live in Canton, but Mr. and Mrs. O'Keefe would be there all the time to help as well. Um, so, and Mr. O'Keefe would take my son and Patrick, the nephew, out to Dunkin Donuts all the time. Can you tell us a little more about the collective effort of other people, including his family, helping John raise these children? Um, there was a lot of us that jumped in to help. It was not just me. Um, there was a lot of Kayle's friends, parents, um, that jumped in and help for Kaylee, um, his niece and Patrick. There was a lot of us that helped out with Patrick. All of the the the community all came together to help him because there was this this guy that just lost his sister and brother-in-law and he stepped in to take care of these two kids and he didn't really know what he was doing at first, but he got the hang of it pretty quickly. You have a son that shared a lot of interests with his nephew. Yes. He also had a niece. Yes. Did you spend more time helping with his nephew or with his niece? With his nephew. Were there other people in the community you knew of who spent more time helping with his niece? Yes. And who was that? Jen McCabe. Did you know Jen McCabe? I had met her once. John got a discount at Reebok. So he would take the kids, well he would take anyone with kids up with him to get um shoes like sneakers for back to school or whatever. So one day he did take Jen and I up to Reebok, but other than that I had never I never talked to her on the phone. I never saw her out. Her children are older than mine, so we never really crossed paths. As it relates to the night of January 29, 2022, how much earlier was it that John took you out with the children and Miss McCabe out with her children to get sneakers? How many years before that? Oh, years like six or seven maybe. Okay. And from that time you met Jen McCabe in the years past, did you ever spend time with her again before January 29th, 2022? No, I did not. I didn't know her. Were you friends with her? I was not. Did you speak on the phone with her? No, I did not. So, other than that one meeting, you were strangers. Yep. That was the only time I knew her. I knew Everest. She has four girls. Um, but I didn't know her. At some point, um, as you were part of John's life, did you learn that he was dating a person by the name of Karen Reed? Yes, I did. And do you see that person here in the courtroom today? Yes, I do. Could you point her out and describe an article of clothing that she's wearing? Um, she has a black suit jacket seated at the front table. When did you first become familiar or know about Miss Reed? July, I think it was, of 2020. Um, John, we were having people over and so I invited him and he said, "I'm going to bring Karen over." And I was like, "I don't know who that is, but okay." He assumed I knew cuz he had been dating her for a little bit, but it was co so we didn't see him very often during that time. So, um, Karen came over that night. This is early 2020. I think it was it was summer, so I think it was I think it was around June June or July. Briefly, just tell us a little bit about where and the circumstances of meeting John and Karen for the first time. Um, they came over to my house and we hung out on the back porch. Um, had some drinks, there was music, kids were around. Um, just a nice normal summer night. We had other people over as well. Over the next coming months, uh, did you become more familiar with the defendant? Yes. Did you see her more often? Yes. And could you generally describe for the jury how you learn more of her and saw her more often? Um, she would take care of the kids a lot. Um, mainly, well, not mainly Patrick, but not mainly Kaylee either. She helped out a lot with the kids. So, if we were at baseball, she would come to all the baseball games. Um, or she would drop off or pick up my son or Patrick if they were going to the golf course or the driving range. Would you see her during events with your son and John's nephew? Yes, we did baseball tournaments. And so, when you go to baseball tournaments, would that be away an overnight type trip? Um, one of them was was down the Cape. How often would you spend time with John and and the defendant? Um, not that often together, but John would stop by by himself. My husband would go out more with John, but I didn't spend much time with the two of Not a lot of time outside of the baseball field. Did you become friends with the defendant? We were friend Lee. Did you ever spend time alone to go out or socialize? I did not. Would you see her when you would pick up or drop off kids or she would pick up or drop off kids? Yes. Did you ever speak to her on the phone? Uh, yes. In relation to what? Uh, corresponding with the kids. Pick up, drop off, mainly Ryan and Patrick, not about Kaye. Did you ever spend any important dates or times or holidays with John and Miss Reed? No. I want you to take us ahead to January 28th, 2022. Okay. On January 28th, 2022, do you remember that day? Um, yes. Generally, what do you remember about the day of January 28, 2022? There was a blizzard coming and it was my friend's my daughter's friend's birthday. So, we were going to be going out celebrating that night, but we did it on the early side because there was a blizzard coming. What was your plan for that evening? Um, we went bowling. Um, we got dinner, then we went bowling, and then I came home because I wanted to be in before the snow started. Had you communicated in any way with John that day? Yes, he texted me. My son had had an issue at school. Patrick had been dismissed, I think, for a doctor's appointment. Um, so he did text me to see how my son was doing. Did you simply text or did you get a chance to speak to him that day? I believe we just texted. You did you go out that night after bowling? No, I did not. Was your husband home? Yes. Did he go out that night? He did. He went out with John. And do you know where he was planning on going? Uh, they went to McCarthy's, a bar in Canon Center. Had you been to McCarthy's before? Yes. Can you just briefly describe what McCarthy's is? Um, it's a restaurant bar. There's a large bar in the middle with seating on the left and the right. It's right in the center of town. Do you remember about what time your husband went out? Uh, I do not remember exactly. I don't even I don't know if we I got home and then he went out or if he was already gone when I got home. I don't remember. But it was around he went out around the same time that I arrived home which was on the earlier side. How many times had you been to John's home would you say over the past couple of years before this night? Oh many many times. Many times. Were you familiar familiar with the house in the driveway? Yes. May I approach you? Yes. Should I return to the podium and ask the questions? You can ask something there. Thank you. Ma'am, I'd ask you to take a look at that photo in front of you. Do you recognize what is in that photo? That is John's house. Is that a fair and accurate depiction of how his house looks? Yes, it is. I'd like to move this evidence, please. Okay. Any objection? No objection. May I publish to the jury? Your honor? Yes. Thank you. Thank you. You can take it down. I've shown you a second photo. Do you recognize what's in that photo? Yes. That's John's driveway. Is that a fair and accurate depiction of how John's driveway appears? Yes, it is. I move that into evidence. No objection. Okay. May I publish? Yes. Thank you. I'm showing you a third photo. Do you recognize what's in that photo? Yes. And could you share with the jury what's in that photo? It's the side of John's house looking up from the driveway. Is there anything you notice on the side of the house? Um the lights or the ring camera? Are you guessing or do you know that's okay? No, I know. I know there's one there. And how do you know that? Because I got a Ring camera and I could look and see who was at my door and then he said, "Why didn't you tell me about these things?" So, he bought one. I move to introduce this photo. Okay. No objection. Thank you. May I publish your honor? Yes. Miss Roberts, with the laser pointer, could you just point at the picture and show where the ring camera is on this screen? Yes. Whichever one you can do. Okay. Why isn't it working? It's on. Okay. Well, you know what? Rather than use the pointer, why don't we describe? Can you describe where you see the ring camera on that picture? Um, it's in where the two lights are under the top window. Okay. Thank you. We could take that down, please. How many times would you guess you had been over to his house? I don't know. More than 50 thousand. I don't even know. A lot. It was weekly. That night, you told us that your husband went out to meet John at McCarthy's bar. Yes, he did. Do you remember your husband coming home that night? Yes. Do you have any memory of about what time he returned? I'm guessing somewhere around 10 10:30. So, I'm not going to let you guess. Do you know? Do you have I don't know. It was around 10 or 10:30. I can't be exact. Did you see him come home? Yes. What was the forecast for that night and the next morning? There was a blizzard coming. Was that part of the decision-making of going out or staying home? Yes. At that time when your husband came home, do you did you look outside? You have any memory of what the weather looked like around 10:00 10:30? I remember sitting I remember the snow started to fall somewhere around 12 cuz I remember looking out the window and I could see it starting and that was the beginning of the snowfall I believe. So what was the weather out like out that night? The weather that night I think was fine. It was cold but it wasn't snowing yet. I see. I want to move forward ahead. At some point that night did you go to sleep? Yes, I did. Did you sleep through the night, Miss Roberts? Yes, I did. At some point, did you wake up? Yes, I did. I want you to tell us what was the reason that you woke up. Um, I got a phone call at 5:00 in the morning from Karen Reed. Were you expecting a call? No, I was not. Had you ever received a call at 5 in the morning from Miss Reed before? No. share with us what happened that morning. What did you hear? Um Karen called and was the first thing she said was Carrie Carrie Carrie John's dead and then she hung up. And then when she said that, did you have a chance to have a conversation with her? No, I did not. Describe her demeanor when she said that. She was yelling loud enough. my name. I think it was three times. It might have been two. Um, she was yelling loud enough that she woke my husband. Your husband was sleeping next to you? Yes, he was. Was she loud, yelling, screaming? She was. Yes, she was very loud. She was screaming after she said Carrie, Carrie, Carrie, John's dead. Did you know what she meant? No. And did you say this was around 5:15? This was at 5. She called me at 5 on the dot. After she hung up, what did you do? I well I was half asleep still. I didn't know what was going on. So I started to get up and I think I tried to call her back. I don't I know I tried to call her back but I don't know exactly when because I was like what what? So um I my husband said, "What was that?" I said, "I don't know. Something's going on. I don't know what's going on. That was Karen." And then I tried to call her back. I know I tried to call her back, but I don't know if she answered or if she called me back the next time I spoke to her. After you or she called you again, did you have another discussion or did you hear her say something else the second time you spoke to her? Yes, the second time she said, "Um, I think something happened to John. I think he got hit by a plow. He didn't come home last night. Kaye was home. He would never leave her by herself and I was not supposed to stay at the house last night. So, I know I think something happened to him. Did she say anything about drinking? Yes. She said, "We drank so much I don't remember anything from last night." And I said, "Okay, where are you now?" She said, "I'm driving." And I said, "You need to go home. Where's Kaye?" And she said, "At home." I said, "You need to go home and be with Kaye. she cannot handle this thinking, you know, her uncle's missing. Um, I said, "You're going to get a DUI. You need to go home." Was there anything else in the conversation that she said to you at that time? She said, "I'm going to drive to your house. Would you drive my car?" And I said, "Yes." So, at that point, I started to get dressed. I turned on the automatic car starter so it would warm up. Um, told my husband, you know, I don't know what's going on. John didn't come home. And so I think my husband tried to call him and I tried to call him and my husband said, "You're not going anywhere. It's a blizzard. He's probably on somebody's couch." And I was like, "I know, but she's really upset. I'm just going to go. She wants to come here. I'm going to drive her car." And then I went out to my car and sat and waited for her. When you called John, did you get any response? No, I did not. As you were waiting for the defendant, did you make any other phone calls? I did. When I was in the car, I thought to myself, well, she thinks he got hit by a plow. I'm going to call the police and see if there was any accidents or maybe they something happened. They brought him in. Um, and I spoke to the officer who said, "No, nothing of that sort. I've been here all night." And then, um, I called the Good Samaritan Hospital and Milton Hospital to see if they had anybody that was taken in in an accident. When you called the police to look for Mr. O'Keefe, did you call 911? No, I called the non-emergency line. Do you know if that call was recorded? I believe so. I'd like to introduce an exhibit. Okay. Any objection? No. When you called um the police, what was your level of worry at that point? I wasn't super worried. I mean, he didn't come home, but they were out drinking. So, I assumed, like my husband said, he's probably on somebody's couch. The second call you had was Miss Reed. Can you describe her demeanor in that second call? Um, she was frantic. She was frantic. I mean, she was she couldn't find John, so she was very worried. Uh, how soft or loud was that phone call? It wasn't as loud as the first one, but it was it wasn't a regular conversation. With court's permission, I'd like to play the exhibit of the call. Okay. [Music] My friend is because my friend's boyfriend did not come home last night. We were at Waterfall and now she is calling in because she doesn't know where he is. You didn't pick anybody up by the name of John O'Keefe. Did you John O'Keefe? No. Uh, he probably got a ride and passed out. I don't know. But yeah, no, we didn't watch anybody else or anything like that. Um, and where does he live? He lives on me. He lives on me off. Okay. Where is the white home? You said your girlfriend's girlfriend. Yeah. They were out having drinks and then she left and expected him to come home at some point and he never met. Yeah. And so I said to her even my husband had been out with him earlier but then he came home and she hephed away. Okay. And so she now she never even called me. Yeah. So she's like, "I feel the well." I personally think he probably I don't know. Yeah. Did he didn't drive last night? No. No. Okay. I mean, yeah. I mean, again, it's more driven by she would have to, you know, call in the patient. um and talk to him. But I mean as of right now it's more you know he didn't come home last night. Is this is this common sometimes with him? No no no no that's why that's he didn't call me. Um that's kind of why she's more freaking out. Um so I think I called the hospital. I did a call police just like I said people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Unfortunately, I wasn't there. I respect but we haven't we didn't get any calls or anything like that. Nobody was arrested or anything like that. Um, you know. Okay. All righty. All right. Well, thank you. All right. No problem. Good luck. Thank you. Byebye. Were you in your car when you called the police station in the hospitals looking for John? Yes, I was. Do you know at that point whether anybody else had called the police station? No, I don't know. Do you know at that point if anybody else had called any hospitals? I don't know. How long did you wait in your driveway? I don't know. I'm sorry. Um maybe like seven minutes, eight minutes. What were the conditions like out that morning? It was bad. It was in the middle of a blizzard. When you were outside in your uh car in the driveway waiting, describe the lighting conditions for us. Um it was still dark out. It was 5:00 in the morning and it was snowing. So it was not great. How was the visibility? Not great. It was coming down really fast at that point. You said that night when you went to bed, the snow had just started. Had snow accumulated at that point. Um, no, I don't think so. It was just starting to stick. I'm sorry. That was the night before. But at this point when you were in the driveway, had the snow accumulated? Oh, yes. Do you know how many inches it was? No, I don't. Okay. Enough that the plows are out. As you were waiting for the defendant, did she arrive at your house? She did not. What happened? again. I don't know if I called her or she called me, but eventually we connected on the phone and she said I said, "Where are you? I'm I'm waiting." And she said, "I'm at Jen's house." And I said, "Jen, who?" And she said, "Nabe, she's going to drive my car." And I said, "Okay, well listen, they don't want cars on the road cuz it's so bad. I'm already in my car. I'll come there to Jen's house. Stay there and we'll follow each other and we'll go back and drop your car off." Did you look in the house for John? could he just be in the house passed out somewhere? And she said no. She hadn't looked in the house. So I said, "Okay, now we're going to I'm going to come to Jen's. We're going to take the car home, drop it off. We'll check around the house, and then I don't know what the next step at this point was. I just wanted to check the house." At the time you directed that you were going to meet at Jim McCabe's house and then drive to John's house, was there any suggestion by the defendant where she wanted to go? Um, I didn't know where Jen's house was. I knew the street. I had dropping Kaye off or picked her up a few times. Um, so I said, "Stay on the phone with me." So I don't I don't know which house it is. And so when I got there, I pulled in the driveway and there was some conversation about Can I back you up and just ask you a little bit about the drive there? I don't mean to interrupt. When you left your house, you talked a little bit about the weather conditions. How long did it take you to get from your home to Jen McCaves? Oh, it's quick. Uh, probably four minutes. What was the driving like? It was not good driving. That's why I didn't want two cars on the road. Did you have any difficulty driving through that storm? No. Well, I mean, it was treacherous, but I was in four-wheel drive. I have an SUV. You mentioned you didn't know exactly where Jen McCabe lived. Had you been there to drop off John's niece before? Yes, but I didn't know which house it was because when I picked her up before, she was either getting out of the car at the driveway or waiting at the end of the driveway. So, I couldn't I didn't know which house it was. I think I interrupted you, but were you telling us that as you drove to Jen McCabe's house, you were on a Bluetooth on a open conversation with her to help with directions? Yes, Jen and Karen were in Karen's car and I was on the phone essentially with both of them. Do you know what type of vehicle the defendant was driving at that time? um a Lexus SUV. As you drove over to Jen McCabe's home and you had some guidance finding it, did you hear any conversations in that open line with or even any statements by the defendant? Um I remember when I was I pulled in behind her car in Jen's driveway and at some point Karen said, "My my tail light my tail light and I looked and Jen had the she must have had the brake done because you could see that there was missing tail light. When you say missing tail light, was it merely cracked? Um, no. There was a piece missing. Could you see that as you were parked right behind the defendant's SUV or Lexus? She must have been applying the brakes because you could see it, but there was a lot of snow. When you saw that the tail light had a missing piece, did you say anything? No. Did you think anything of it? No. How long were you parked behind the defendant's Lexus while it was parked in M. McCabe's driveway? Not long. We were just I I pulled in and then I was we stopped and then the next plan at at some point in that conversation as well or maybe on the ride because now we're heading to John's house to drop a car off. I pulled out of the driveway. Jen pulled out and I followed behind all the way to John's house. And at some point, Karen said, "I left him at Waterfall." And I heard Jen say, "No, I saw you pull up in front of my sisters." Was anything else said about the broken tail light? No. Okay. Uh, you followed Miss McCabe? Yes. Where did you go? To John's house. Did you arrive? Yes. I want to ask you some questions about when you arrived and what you did next. Okay. When you arrived at Mr. O'Keefe's home, you're in two separate cars. Who pulled into Mr. O'Keefe's driveway first? Um, Jen pulled Karen's car in first. So, M. McCabe was driving the Lexus. Correct. And the defendant was in the passenger seat. Yes. After you both pulled in, tell us what happens next. Um, we went I wasn't sure if it was at some point Karen showed us the tail light up close, but I didn't know if it was when we arrived or when we left. Um, but we went into the house to look for John. Okay. When the U Lexus was parked by Miss McCabe in Mr. O'Keefe's driveway, was it facing the street or facing away? Um, facing the where the basketball hoop is. Not facing the street. like to approach. Okay. Going to show you a photograph. Do you recognize what's in that photograph? Yes. That's John's driveway. That's Karen's car on the left and John's car on the right. Do you recognize both those cars? Yes, I do. Do you recognize that photo as a fair depiction of his driveway? Yes. Do you recognize it as a fair depiction of the motor vehicles? Yes. Now, when you went there that night and you pulled in behind Miss McCabe and the defendant, uh, is there any differences between how that area looked when you pulled in as opposed to that photo? Well, it was the early hours of the morning, so it was dark out and there was much more snow coming down. I'm so sorry. You want to? Nope. Other than the snow and the lighting, is there any other differences? Um, no. I'd like to introduce this as an exhibit, please. All right. There's no objection, Mr. Jackson. No objection. With the court's permission, I'd like to publish. Okay. And to help us understand, you see on the left is the house. Yes. There's a motor vehicle in the middle of the driveway, but it's the vehicle to the left. Yes. And whose vehicle is that? That's Karen's. Is that where it was parked that night when you went into the house? Yes. In the motor vehicle to the right. You recognize that? That's John's car or SUV. Thank you. You can take that down. I'm showing you a second photo. Okay. Do you recognize that photo? Yes. What is it? It's the back of Karen's car. Does it look like a fair and accurate depiction of her car as it appeared that morning in the early morning hours to you? Yes. Do you notice anything that's distinguished in that photo? The piece that's missing in the tail light. Which one? The right passenger rear. Do you know when I'm sorry, do you know when this photo was actually taken? I do not. Um although you don't know when it was taken, is that a similar depiction to your memory of how it appeared that morning at 5? Yes. Or a little after five? Yes. I move to introduce this exhibit. Okay. Commission would like to publish. Yes. 11. We can take that down, please. After you arrived at Mr. O'Keefe's house, what was the plan to go inside? What were you looking to do? To go inside and look and see if he was passed out somewhere. Um, so we went in through the garage and I started looking. Jen I think Jen ran upstairs to Kayle's bedroom and I just started looking through the living room. Um basement door was locked from the inside so I knew he wasn't in the basement. Um and then I checked the other living room. He has a big house. Then I went to the top of the stairs to check his bedroom. As you looked around, what was your mood? What was my mood? Yes. Were you caught? I mean, I was worried. So, we were At this point, Jen had already established that they went to her sister's. Okay. Jen had already the question better. My apologies. How many rooms did you look through in John's house? [Music] Um, one, two, five or six. Did you see Miss McCabe looking in rooms as well, searching? She went upstairs when I was looking downstairs. At some point, as you were looking, did you see the defendant? Yes. Was she looking with you? She was in John's room. What was she doing? She was just standing there when I came up to the top of the stairs. Did she say anything? No. Did she do anything? No. Was she searching? I don't know. She was in the room. What happened next? Um, at some point, Jen earlier had said, "Well, let's not talk about what was said. Let's just talk about the plan at this point is to go to Miss M. Roberts. I know that I'm just going to ask you to wait for a question because we can only get one person at a time. So, next question. Mr. Brennan, again, my apologies." And so, as you're looking through the house, you don't find John. What happens next? The plan was to go back to Jen's sister's house. Who made that plan? Karen wanted to go back there. Well, tell us a little bit about that. How did that conversation come up and share with the jury what was said? Um, in the car ride to Meadows, Karen said, "I left him at Waterfall." And Jen said, "No, I saw you pull up in front of my sisters." So then Karen said, "We need to go back to your sisters." And I said, "No, we're going to go to Meadows and we're going to drop the car and we're going to look there. Then we'll go there if we don't find him." When you were at the house, Meadows, John O'Keefe's house, and you didn't find him. Was there any further conversation about what the next steps would be? Um, I said, "Let's go. He's not here." But I didn't know where Jen's sister lived. So, she we got into the car. Um, Jen was in the passenger seat. I was driving my car. Karen was in the back seat. Did you was giving directions? Did you begin your way towards Meadows? Yes. And it was Miss McCabe who's giving directions? Yes. As you began driving to head towards Meadows, in addition to trying to drive, were you doing anything like looking or searching? Well, yeah. We were looking on both sides of the I was looking on both sides of the road in case he was walking home. Did you see Miss McCabe searching? Yes, she was looking out as well. That would describe a little detail about what you saw Miss McCabe doing. It was She was looking out the window as we were driving. So was I as I was driving. And where was the defendant during that time? She was in the back seat. Um, was there any conversation, comments, statements? Um, well, she was she would be in the back seat and then she would be in between Jen and I. In the back seat and then in between Jen and I. She was just very frantic. Okay. Was she saying anything specific? I mean, there was conversation on the way there. Okay. Was she looking as well? Did you see her looking out the windows like you and J? I don't know if she was because she was in the back seat. Okay. As you drove to Meadows, what was the visibility? The same or better or worse? No, it was poor. Did you make your way towards Meadows? I did. Um, as you finally got to Meadows, was the house on your left side, your side, or on the other side? Are you talking about Fair View or Meadows? I'm sorry, Fair View. Okay. Uh, the Fair View House came up on the left hand side. before you got to the house. Um, is there a tree line between that house and the house before it? Um, yes. There's there's a cluster of trees and bushes. All right. Take us back. I want to talk about that morning. As you're driving and approaching Fair View, tell us what you hear, what you see, what what's happening. Um, Jen's giving directions and it was really bad driving. I was white knuckling because it was getting slippery. Karen wouldn't put on her seatelt so because she was in between us again the whole ride and then sitting back. But she was she was worried because we weren't finding John. Were you having words? Yes. Um tell us. I said to Jen, "Where where are we heading?" And she said, "Uh, my sister lives on Fairview." I said, "Where is that?" She said, "Off of Chapman." I said, "Oh, okay." Near Spring Lane. Um, at some point Bella's mom came up. Um, tell me what that means. I didn't know who it was, but it was um, it was one of Kayle's friends, Bella's mom. Um, well, the directions at some point Karen was talking about Bella's mom to Jen, saying, "She never liked me. I didn't know who this woman was that they were talking about, but apparently Bella's mom lived near where Jen's sister lived on Fair View. Did you learn any more about the relevance of Bella's mom? No. Oh, well, I think John had dated her. Objection. I'm going to allow it. So, as you approach Fair View, tell us what happens. Um, as we approach Fair View at the house, you mean the house or the street? Yes. Yes, the house. The house. Um, Jen said, "My sister's house is right up here." And I said, "Okay." And as we approached the house, Karen from the back seat is now screaming, "There he is. There he is. Let me the f out of this car." And she's now kicking the back door to get out. When you heard the defendant scream, "There he is. There he is." and started kicking the car door. Did you see anything? I did not. Did you see anybody? I did not. Did you look? I looked. Was there anything that impeded your ability to see far? No, it was just snow. Um, how far could you see when she was yelling there ears? Um, how far could I see? Yes. I mean, the visibility wasn't great. Okay. Was she pointing or giving any direction? No, she just said, "There he is." Okay, what happens next? And then I unlocked the car. I looked over. I didn't see anything. And I unlocked it so she could get out of the back seat. I looked at Jen and I said, "She's crazy." And then I turned around and watched and she ran over to a bound of snow. When she started running, before she got anywhere, did you see anything at that point? I did not. Were you looking? I was looking. She said, "There he is." So looking around to see where he is. And you could see nothing. I did not. Did you see her run around or directly? She ran right over to the mound of snow. Could you tell what the mound of snow was from the car? Um once she got to it, yes, it was once she got to it. I was You could tell it was a mound of snow that was the length of a body. I'll remind you you're still under take the scan. Thank you. Good morning. [Music] Whenever you're ready, Mr. Brennan. Thank you, your honor. Good morning, Mrs. Roberts. Good morning. Yesterday, you told us a little bit about when you went into John's home at Meadows to look for him. Yes. And I recall you said that you did not see him there. Correct. At some point you left. Correct. When you went into Meadows, who did you go into Meadows with? Um Karen and Jen McCabe. Have you ever seen any video from a Ring camera depicting you and the defendant and Miss McCabe going into the home? Yes, I have. D, may I approach? Yes. Actually, I've moved to introduce a ring video. has certifications and then a small video if there's no objection. Did you say if there's no objection or there is no? If there's no objection. Can I introduce your honor? It's 12 A and 12 B. Thank you. One final. It's a 12c would be just fine. Thank you. Your honor, if I may note 12 A is the Ring video from 12 Meadows, 12B is the certification from Ring and 12 C is a clip of a piece of portion of 12A. That's accurate. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. With the court's permission, I'd like to play 12 C for the jury. Okay. Thank you, M. Roberts. You've seen that video before? Yes, I have. Is that you and the defendant and Miss McCabe going into Meadows? Yes, it is. When you came out of Meadows, did you have a chance again to look at the defendant's tail light on her Lexus? Yes. When we left the house, she pointed it out to me. Did you stop and get a closer look? Yes, I did. I want you to describe to the jury your best memory of what it looked like. Um Karen pointed out and said, "Look, my tail light." And I said, she said, "Do you think I hit him?" And I said, "No, I don't think you hit him." What are you talking about? Let's just go find him. Um, but the tail light itself, the piece was missing. And as you got closer, there's a metal sort of square and one of the pieces was sort of sticking out. And I only remember it cuz I thought if someone walks by that, they're going to catch their jacket on it. How long of a time did you have to actually look at the tail light? Um, under a minute. How close were you to the tail light when you looked at it? I was in front of it. I could see. And when you talked about the tail light, you said a piece was missing. Is this the left side or the right side of the Lexus that you saw the piece of the tail light missing? It was the right side. So, it was the passenger tail light. May I approach? Yes. Should I remain your honor? Sure. Thank you. recognize what is in that photo. That is Karen's SUV. Is it similar or fair and accurate depiction of how you saw the vehicle that morning? Uh without the snow, I can't be positive, but this square piece was missing as is in this picture. The photograph you look at is not the car in the snow in the driveway the day you saw it. Correct. Um, putting that aside, is that a fair and accurate depiction of the damage that you saw to the right rear tail light of Miss Reed's car that morning? Yes. I move to deduce this as an exhibit, please. Any objection? No objection. Thank you. With the court's permission, I'd like to publish exhibit 13. Mr. Roberts, I'm going to ask you to take a look at the photo that you just described. Do you see the white area in that photograph? Yes. Is that where the tail light had missing part? Yes. And where was the metal in relation to that white part that you see? Um, if you look at the white part, it's the upper left. It's sort of like a rectangle, but it's vertical sort of. And that's the metal part that you were concerned about? Yes. One of the side, it's almost like an enc casement, but the right side, I think it was the right side, was sticking out a little bit, like out from the car toward me. Did you express any concern about the metal sticking out? Yes, because I thought at that height it could clip someone's coat or something if they were walking by. You mentioned the defendant asked you if you thought she hit somebody. Correct. How many times did she ask you that? Um, she asked me that in the driveway. How many times she said, "Do you think I hit him? Do you think I hit him?" And my answer was, "No, I don't think you hit him. I'm sure you hit something because your tail light's broken, but I don't think you hit him." Why would I think that? Did you have any reason to think at that point that she hit anybody? No. Did she ever repeat that phrase or question in the same or similar manner again that night? Um, she did at the scene where we found John. Before or after you found John? After we found John. Okay. So, we'll get to that then. Could we please take that picture down, Miss Gilman? How far of a ride is it from Meadows to Fair View? Uh, I would I don't know, maybe 8 minutes. So, when you left John's house at Meadows and you traveled to Fair View, um you said you were driving. Yes. Was there any comments or conversation from the defendant on that ride? Um there was talk of Ella's mom who lived near Jen's sister. Um there was talk and I said, "Where is Fairview?" And Jen said, "It's off of Chapman." So, it was near Spring Lane. And I knew of somebody previously that John had dated on Spring Lane. So, I brought it up thinking, could he have gone there if he was walking home? I don't I don't know. I didn't I don't know. I didn't know where he was or why he was missing. Describe the mood in the car. Um, well, it was scary driving. And Karen was, you know, frantic and she was yelling. I don't even remember at this point what she was yelling, but she was yelling. She had an elevated voice. She would be in between us while I was driving and she would sit back in the back seat, then be in between us. Did you have any words with Miss Reed? I told her to shut up several times because I was trying to drive and I couldn't concentrate. I told her to sit back and buckle up because it was bad driving. I didn't want to get into an accident and her not have a seatelt on. How often was the yelling on the way to Fair View? Oh, several times. It was like you you couldn't control her and I was trying to drive in a blizzard. You went down Spring Road before you get to Fair View. No, Spring Road. Spring Lane is before Fair View off of Chapman. And did anything remarkable happened on Spring Lane? I'm sorry. Anything remarkable happened on Spring Lane? No. More of the same. Yes. Now, you mentioned yesterday that when you got to Fair View, the defendant began kicking your door. Yes. When you looked out, you didn't see anything? I did not. And at some point you ran over to where Miss Reed was. Yes. Tell us what your first observations are when you get close to the defendant. Well, it was a shape of a body, like the length of a body. Shape of a body. She ran over and I said, "Oh my god." I jumped out of the car. I ran over and I got to She was lifting up his shirt to try and warm him, I guess. Um, so I went over to his head and I began to dig his head out of the snow. Can you take us back and describe for us what you seen? Um he his body was completely covered but his head was completely covered. So I started to dig around his face and his eyes and um his left eye was fine but his right eye looked like it was huge um like he had had something happen to it. Um, and after that I told Karen to get off him. We were going to start CPR. Um, I had been certified at work through the American Red Cross, so I knew chest compressions were more important. So, I started to do chest compressions and I yelled to Jen and told her to call 911. Karen was trying to do mouth to mouth. I don't know if she knew what she was doing, but I knew chest compressions were more important, so I concentrated on that. Um, I yelled for Jen. I I carry blankets. I have two kids, so I carry blankets in the car. So, I yelled to Jen to get the blankets. I don't know what I thought I was doing with blankets, but I wrapped them around his head just thinking we're trying to warm him up. I don't He was covered in snow. When you first ran over, you mentioned that his head was covered in snow. Was his head fully covered in snow? Yes. When you looked down, um when you looked down, could you see who it was at first? At first, no. I had to dig him out. When is it that you realize that this was your friend John? When I cleared the snow off his face. Did you feel his skin? Did I feel what? His skin. Yes. And could you tell us how it felt? It was cold. Like he had been there in the elements for a while. You mentioned that his head was covered with snow before you brushed off the snow. Was other parts of his body still covered in snow. Yes. Can you share with us what you saw? Um, his legs were covered, his arms were by his side, he was on his back. Karen had lifted up his shirt so that now his shirt was down, but I was doing chest compressions so you could see his clothing. Um, he had blood coming out of his nose and his mouth. And when I put the baby blankets under the back of him, there was blood on the blanket. So I think he had a cut on the back of his head. Was the blood from his nose and mouth frozen or running? I don't think it was running. It was not gushing. You said that you brushed off the snow from John's face? Yes. Did you brush it off from both sides? Yes. Did you brush it off to the extent that you uncovered his entire face and head? Yes. So, did you have gloves on? No. Bare hands? Yes. And that's how you felt the temperature of his skin? Yes. When you brushed off both sides of his face, did you ever feel any pieces of glass sticking out of his face? No. Did you ever see any pieces of glass sticking out of his face? I did not. How long did you give chest compressions for to Mr. O'Keefe? Oh, I can't be sure. I would say 4 minutes, 5 minutes while we were waiting for the EMTs. I had Jen take over at one point. Um, and then the EMTs came. So, however long it took for them to get to us. Six minutes. When you were trying to save your friend John, did the defendant say anything? Um, she was just running around screaming, "Carrie, Carrie, Jan, Carrie, Jan." Was anything said at that point about her tail light? About what? Her tail light? No. When the EMTs were around and they were working on the body, she was running around um and saying, "Did I hit him? Did I hit him? Is he dead? Is he dead? when you were waiting for the police and EMTs, um, just briefly, what was the temperature like and the visibility like? Um, the temperature was freezing cuz I remember at one point I couldn't feel my knees, which is why I had Jen take over and it was the wind was still whipping and the snow was still coming down. At some point, did help arrive? Yes, they did. And when help arrived, what did you do? Um, I stood back and watched them work on him. Did you see first responders trying to give first aid to Mr. O'Keefe? Yes. How long were you outside for that morning? At that point? Well, the entire morning. Oh, I don't Maybe a half hour. When the first responders were trying to save John, what else were you doing? Um, I was calling my husband. I called my mother. Um, when they put him in the back of the ambulance, um, I then made a call to Mrs. O'Keefe. I think I called Mr. O'Keefe first, but he didn't he didn't answer. So, I called Mrs. O'Keefe and told her John had been in an accident and she screamed, "I can't do this again. What did you do after that phone call? Um, the police put Jen and Karen in the back of a cruiser and I was looking in the ambulance to see what was going on with my friend. So, I was standing outside of the the cruiser. They were inside. I was standing outside just watching and Karen was saying, "Is he is he dead? Is he dead? Is he dead?" And I said, "No, they're working on him. I can see tubes moving. I I can see them moving something. He wouldn't if he was dead, they wouldn't be working on him. She grabbed the front of my shirt and said, "Are they working on him?" And I said, "Yes, they're working on him." I didn't at this point, I think I was in shock. I didn't know what was going on. I didn't think he was dead. I thought they could save him. I knew he was in the EMT with the in the ambulance with the EMTs, and I was just hopeful that they were going to be able to do more than I could. You said that at one point Miss McCabe and the defendant were in a car and then you mentioned at some point the defendant grabbed you. Did she grab you when she was in the car or out of the car? She was in the car. I was outside of the car at some point. Did the defendant, Miss McCabe, get out of the car? Yes. Did you go over to the ambulance before it left? Did I go over to the ambulance before it left? No. Did you watch? Yes. At some point, did you see the defendant get out of the car, the police cruiser? No, I didn't see them get out, but I They were out at one point. They were what? They were out of the vehicle, but I didn't watch I didn't watch them get out. I was watching the ambulance. At some point, you saw them out? Yes. Okay. And did they watch Were they near you when you were watching the ambulance? Did what? Were they near you when you were watching the ambulance? I don't know. I wasn't I wasn't concentrating on either one of them. I was concentrating on my friend in the ambulance. When you were trying to save Mr. O'Keefe, did you ever see any signs of life? I did not. And I checked his pulse. Um, no, I did not. After the ambulance took John to the hospital, tell us what you do next. Um, I left. I told Mrs. O'Keefe, I said, "I'm going to come get you." She said, "Well, I'm going to have Brainree Police take me to the hospital," which was in Brockton, and I said, "They're not going to take you to Brockton. I will come get you." Cuz neither of their cars had four-wheel drive. Um, so I asked if I could leave, and they said, "Give me your number. We'll follow up with you." And I took Karen with me. Um, we drove down the street. At some point, she was on the phone with Aaron O'Keefe, um, John's sister-in-law. And Karen was saying, "I he I think he's dead. I think he's dead." I grabbed the phone and I said, "I don't think he's dead. He's in an ambulance. He's been in an accident." At this point, I didn't I didn't know what was going to happen. Um at some point in the car as we're driving, she was on the phone with her mother. Um and I I think when we were driving, we got all the way to the elementary school and Karen said to me, "If anything happens to John, I'm going to kill myself. You're going to have to take care of the kids." And I said, "Nobody's dying. Nobody's killing themselves. Let's let's not think about that." Um, and then one of the officers called me and said, "Do you have Karen Reed with you?" And I said, "Yes." And he said, "Could you please turn around and bring her back? Her parents are saying that she's suicidal, so we're going to take her to the hospital and section her." I said, "Okay." I didn't get far, so turned around, went back. Um, at some point she was on the phone with her mother, and I got on the phone with her mother and said, "I'm going to be heading to the hospital. let me give you my phone number. It's the same hospital John's at. I'm assuming they're going to the same. That's where Canton takes everybody. Um, and her mother said, "Please make sure that they don't let her have her bag. There are things in her bag, medicine I don't want her to have." So, I said, "Okay, I will." So, we got back to the house. Um, and she got in the ambulance and one of the EMTs um asked me for her phone. And so I handed that over and I said, "The mother wants to make sure that she does not have her purse because there's medication in there that they don't want her to have." Um, did you see the defendant leave with medical personnel? Yes, I did. Before we move forward, I want to step back for just a moment. Did you see when the medical personnel, the first responders lifted John from the ground and then put him on a bed? Yes. Shortly after they moved John from the ground and brought him to the bed to bring him to the ambulance. Did you go back to where John lie when you first saw him? Yes, I did. Why did you go back to the spot where John was lying when you first saw him? When they lifted him up, there was grass underneath him and I could see his phone. So, I went over and picked up the phone and the two baby blankets that were left on the ground. So, let me ask you, when you went back to where John was lying on the ground, you said you saw grass. There was not snow under him? No, there was not. Was there many inches of snow around that area? Yes. But none where he was lying under him. You said you picked up a couple of items. Yes. Could you repeat that again? What you picked up? I picked up John's phone um and two blankets. the blankets that I had Jen get out of the car. What did you do with John's phone when you picked it up from the ground? I put it in my pocket and gave it to a first responder when they came over or I I handed it off to a first responder. And the blanket you picked up, were they in the ground area or on snow as well? They were I don't remember. Okay. How long after you put the phone in your pocket, do you remember when you gave it to a first responder? How long you had it for? I don't remember. Do you remember the time that you picked up the phone? I do not. Have you seen video of that event? Yes. And does that video have times when you went over and picked up that phone? Yes, but I don't remember. Somewhere around 612, 6:19. And you don't know how long you kept it in your pocket before until you gave it to a first responder. I do not. At some point, did you get in your car during that morning before you left and drove from the scene? Yes. Do you know if John's phone was still in your pocket when you first got into your car? I don't I don't know. Was your car heated that morning? Did you keep it running? Yes. And was the heat I think I kept it running the whole time. I don't even think I shut it off. I see. I want to now step forward to where you left us when you said that you had spoken to John's mother, Peggy. And did you decide what you were going to do next? Um, after I dropped Karen back off at 34 Fair View to get in the ambulance, I then made my way to Brainree Barely. Um, I was on the highway. I was the only one on the highway. I spun out a couple times. Um, can you describe what you mean by spun out? Well, the driving was no one else was on the road. The driving was horrible. So, I spun out almost at the Brainree exit um to get to their house and then I got to the O'Keefe's house and I said, "We are not taking the highway back to Brockton. We're going back roads." Which is a much longer way, but I there's no way I was putting us in the car on that treacherous. When you went to the O'Keefe's house, you mean uh Peggy O'Keefe and John O'Keefe Senior's house? Yes. John's parents. That's different than Meadows Road, correct? When you got to the home, did you go in? Um, yes, for a second. Um, they were ready and waiting for me. They wanted to get to the hospital. When you say they, can you tell us who was waiting for you? Uh, John's parents. Mr. and Mrs. O'Keefe were waiting. What happens next? Um, Mr. O'Keefe said something about a Dr. Rice and that they were trying to warm John up. Um, we got into the car. Mr. O'Keefe got in my passenger seat. Mrs. O'Keefe got in the back seat. Um, Mrs. Zuki's niece worked at Good Samaritan, so we were trying to get in touch with her to see if we were going to be allowed in cuz there's still CO restrictions. Um, John's brother was already on his way there. And uh, Mr. O'Keefe at some point said, "He's gone, Peg." And he slammed his hands on the dashboard, but they didn't actually know if he was gone yet. Um, at one point Karen called me from the ambulance. Um, and on the phone, Mrs. O'Keefe said, "Karen, what happened?" And she said, "I left him at a party." And Mrs. O'Keefe said, "And you just left him?" And Mr. O'Keefe said, "All right, that's enough. She's been through enough." Then we hung up with her. I said, "We're on our way to the hospital." Let me ask you a question. When the defendant said that she left him, did she say whether she left him outside or inside? No. Was the question follow-up question never asked? No. Okay. Was there any other conversation with the defendant at that point? Not in the car, but when I got to the hospital, she called me multiple times from the hospital room. Um, we'll get we'll get to that. Okay. How long did it take for you and the O'Keefe to get to the hospital? I would say maybe 45 minutes to an hour. Share with us the mood in that car. Um I I think I was in shock and I think they were in shock. There wasn't other than talking to um Mrs. O'Keefe's niece trying to find out if we could go in for CO reasons. Um there wasn't much talk. When you finally get to the hospital, take us through your first steps. What happens? Um we finally get to the hospital. We walked in. Paul, John's brother, was there. Um we went over to him and then uh Susanna, Mrs. O'Keefe's niece, came out from her office and offered to take me to the bathroom, um to wash up because I had blood all over my hands. Um, so I went into the bathroom and I asked her afterwards if she could take me to the chapel so I could say a prayer. So she did. She took me to the chapel and then when I came out um she took me into her office and um explained to me that a Dr. Rice was going to come talk to the family um and take them in take him into an office and talk to the family and then the family would be able to go see John. Did you get a chance to see John? I did. Would you be willing to tell us a little bit about what you saw? Objection. Um, I waited in the waiting area. I spoke to my mom. Phone calls were coming in cuz people had heard what happened. Um, and Mrs. O'Keefe, they the family went in to see Dr. Rice. I watched them go in. I watched them walk down a hallway. And then when they came back out, uh, Mrs. O'Keefe told me he was gone. Strike that. Without telling us what anybody said to you, please just share with us what you saw. Um, I went into the hospital room. Um, and John was in a neck brace. At this point, um, there was a trail of blood going toward the the gurnie or the bed that he was on. Um, this time both eyes were filled with blood. They looked like raccoons. Um, that's the only way to describe it. Um, I thought he was going to look better seeing him in the hospital cuz they had been worked on, but he was not. There was much more blood. Were there any other ways that John looked different in the hospital than when you first brushed the snow off the st in the front of Fairview? When I brushed the snow off his face, his left eye was fine. It had an ice cube on it that I pulled off, but the right eye was out to here like a like a golf ball. When I got to the hospital, both eyes were swollen with it looked like blood. They looked purple. May I approach? Yes. May I quickly approach sidebar? Okay. record. May I post? Yes. I'm going to show you a photograph. Yeah. You recognize it? Yes, I do. Yes, he did. I'd ask that the camera not film, please. I'd like to mark this as an exhibit. I will not publish it. I love doing. Yes. Thank you. Are you ready? Yeah. Okay. After you last saw your friend John, what did you do? After the hospital. I'm sorry, ma'am. After the hospital. Yes. Um I drove Well, we went back into the corridor with the family and um Karen at one point called from the hospital asking me, she said her father was on his way and could I go over and greet him or bring him to the O'Keefe's when he arrived and she described him. Um her father did arrive, so I went over and said, "Are you Mr. Reed or something of that nature. And I said, "Mr. O'Keefe would like to speak to you." So, Mr. Reed went over and spoke to Mr. O'Keefe and Paul um and John's parents and I, we didn't know next steps. We were waiting to see if we could leave or if we have to keep information and um eventually we were able to leave. So, I drove Mr. O'Keefe home and Paul drove Mrs. O'Keefe home to John's house. Before you left, John, did you take a bracelet for from him? when he when Mrs. O'Keefe and I went in to see John in the hospital, there was a bracelet that was on his right wrist. It was a blue like rubber bracelet. Um, and that bracelet was made when his sister passed away. Um, and her husband and he wore it all the time. Mrs. O'Keefe still wears it to this day. Did you drive the O'Keefe back to their home? I drove No, I drove Mr. O'Keefe back to John's house and Paul drove Mrs. O'Keeffe. Back to John's house. You went back to John's house on Meadow. Yes. When you arrived at Meadow with Mrs. O'Keefe, did you go in? I arrived with Mr. O'Keefe. And no, I did not go in. What did you do next? I went home. At some point after you went home, did you return to the O'Keefe residence or Meadows? Uh, not that day. The next day I did. Where did you go? I Where did I go? Yes, I went to go to see the family the next day. And where were they? They were at John's house at Meadows. So, they were then staying at John's house at Meadows? Yes. Did you go and visit them? Yes, I did. Why did you do that? Because my friend had just died and I wanted to be with the family. Were there other people that were coming and going? Yes. describe the level of traffic of people coming and going to Meadows that next day. There were people coming from all over. John's friends, um people from Canton, uh people we went to high school with. There was people coming in and out dropping off food. When you were there the next day, um how long did you stay for? Uh several hours. Maybe like two and a half, three hours. Did you ever see the defendant there? I did not. Now, you had told us that you had only met Miss McCabe once before that night. Yes. And after that night, shortly after what happened. Did you speak to Miss McCabe again? Yes. How often? Very often. We wanted to know what happened to our friend. So, she would call me. I'm going to not what you said. Next question, please. Would you speak to her on the phone often? Yes. Regularly? Yes. And so things changed? Yes. After that moment? Yes. Did you start to see her in person? Yes. Spend time with her? Yes. For somebody who was not your friend, why did you at this point form this close bond? I think because we went through something horrific together, we bonded over it. Mrs. O'Keefe at one point did say, "You two need to sit." Did you ever write down a list of things that had happened to try to remember? Yes. When you were spending time with Miss McCabe, did you become friendly? Yes. Friends? Yes. How close of friends did you become? Um, she to this day is a close friend of mine. To this day? Yes. When you were at the scene, when you were trying to help John, there were police officers and first responders? Yes. Now, you're from that area? Well, yes. I'm from Canton, but not that side of town. And you are active in the community at all? Yes. sports, children. Yes. Yes. Do you know a lot of people from Canton? Yes. Did you know any first responders? Uh, yes. Who did you know that you saw that night as a first responder that morning? Um, yes. I'm sorry. That morning? Mike Lank is um my friend's daughter's father. No, my daughter's friend's father. I'm sorry. It's okay. Your daughter's friend's father. And yes. Does he have children that are friends with your daughter? Yes, his daughter is friends with my daughter. How close are his daughter and your daughter? There's a group of f uh five or six of them that are best friends. Are you on a firstname basis with uh Mr. Lank? Yes. When you saw him that morning, did you recognize him? I did. Did you speak to him? I said, "Mike, is that you?" He said, "Yes." That was it. Are you friends with Mr. Lang's wife? I am. How often had you been to the house with the children or on your own before that day? Before that morning when you found John. Well, often when the kids kids can't drive, so when they do sleepovers or whatever, you drop them off, pick them up. Your children would sleep over each other's house. Yes. So, you had a friendly relationship with Mr. Lang before you found John? Yes. And do you continue to have a friendly relationship with him? Did what? Do you continue to have a friendly relationship with him? Yes. Did you go to his house the day after you found John? I did. Who were you with? Uh, well, Jen and I had gone to the O'Keefe's house together with I don't know if it was one or two of her daughters and both of my kids. Um, and then when we were leaving, my daughter said, "Can you drop me off at Mike Link's daughter's house?" So, I dropped her off. And did you do that? You dropped her off. Yes, I did. When you dropped her off at the Lank house, did you speak to anybody? Um, his wife came out and got into the back seat just to find out how I was and how the O'Keefes were. And how were you? How were they? How were you? Oh, I was not well. And did you have a long conversation with Mr. Lang's wife? Yes. Was Miss McCabe with you? Yes. After you left the Lank house, you left your daughter at the house. Yes. You remained in the car? Yes. At some point, did you um speak to Mr. Lank's wife again? Um yes. Are you friendly with her? Yes. Did you ever try to get information, inside information about this case? No. After this case began, did you ever come to court? Did I ever come to where? To court. Uh, yes. And what was the reason you came to court? To support the O'Keefe family. At some point, did you stop coming to court? The answer just yes or no? Yes. Okay. Were you aware or watching about any type of news or publication on this? Yes. As you were watching and learning information, did you begin to contact people at the district attorney's office? Yes, I did. Did that include victim witness advocates? Yes. Did it include um law enforcement assigned to the case? Objection. The form of the question, I'm sustaining the objection. Who did you contact? Um specific names? Yes. Um Steve Nelson, my victim advocate. um Yuri Buchanan who was a state trooper um and at one point I contacted uh Michael Marcy's office. Do you remember at any time being interviewed by police officers or state police about this case at my house on January 29th? So that same day you found John, you were interviewed? Yes. Do you remember who interviewed you? I do not. Do you remember your mental state at that time? Um, I was not well. It was in the evening at some point. Did you Were you interviewed at a later time by any other law enforcement? Um, yes. Okay. Where were you at that next interview? I think I was at Jen's house. We were making a timeline together when two law enforcement showed up to question her, but I happened to be there, so they took us in separate rooms and questioned both of us. Were you sober at that point? Yes. And what was your mental state then? Um, still we we hadn't even had a funeral, so I was still I I couldn't believe what was happening. And after John's passing, um, did you still continue to help out with the children? Yes. With the court's permission, I would like to play an exhibit that's already in evidence. Okay. It's exhibit 4. Right. Before you start it, ma'am, I'm going to show you a video from the scene that night. Okay. Miss Gilman, is this on? Thank you. Could we start at 60950, please? [Music] [Music] [Music] Do you have problems? Huh? Could you stop there, please? Miss Roberts, do you see yourself in that video? Yes. And where were you in that video? I'm over near the flag pole. What were you doing in that video before you stood up? I think I was picking up the phone and the blankets at that point. You see the first responders getting there? Yes. Okay. Continue, please. Is that you with the fur on the hood? Yes. That's you in the middle of the street. Yes, I'm to the right of the car. Could you stop for one moment, please? Ma'am, you see the other two people in the middle of the screen right now? Do you know who they are? That's Karen and Jen McCabe. Do you see the proximity or the closeness between them? Yes. Um, you are not close to Jen McCabe in this video? No. Is there a reason why? I didn't really know her and Karen was running around like you saw. I didn't want to be near her. I just found my friend. Okay. Could you continue please to 6:15? You can let it run, please. Stop, please. Thank you, Mr. Roberts. Is this when the first responders were moving John from where he was laying? Yes. Please continue. Could you continue to watch the area near the flag pole, please? Oh, stop, please. That last 15 or 20 seconds of video, did you pay attention to that, Miss Roberts? Yes, that was the moment that I picked up the phone and blankets. Not before. I don't know what I was doing before when you asked me. And that location where you picked up the phone and blankets, was that where John was lying? Yes, it was. And is that where you saw the ground that did not have snow? Yes, it was. At that point, had you put the cell phone in your pocket? Yes. If there's no objection with the court's permission, I'd like to watch a little more of the film, but if we can double speed it um so we get an opportunity to view it. I want to get to another moment in it. Okay. Any objection? No objection. Thank you. around 1617 would be fine. Momentum, stop, please. The person in the blue jacket, do you know who that is on the right side of the screen? That's Jen McCabe. And do you well you can't see you now. Do you know where you are at this point? I don't know where I am. Continue, please. What are you doing, Miss Roberts? Um, cleaning off my car. [Music] [Music] [Music] Could you please stop? Did you mention at some point you went back and the defendant, Miss McCabe were in a car? They were in a police car at some point. Did you do anything with them when they were in that car? Um, at one point Karen asked us to say a prayer to pray. So, we said a prayer. Is it before or after this moment on the video? Do you know? I don't know. Okay. If you could continue, please Thank you. Stop, please, just for a moment. Do you know where you are at this point, Miss Roberts? No. Okay, if you can continue, please. Was that you walking by, Mr. Roberts? Yes, it was. Note the time is 62122. Do you know where you walked? No, I do not. Behind this car, this dash cam view. Say that again. Are you behind the view of the dash cam? Um, I think I'm It looks like I went over to the right of the vehicle. Okay. Stop, please. This is for the record 623 08. At 62308, are you still beside or behind the view of this car? I believe so. And do you know where Miss McCabe is at this point? No. Or the defendant? No. Please continue. Miss Gilman, when it reaches 62418, if you would stop again. at this time. 62418. Are you within view of this camera angle? No. Do you Where do you think you are in relation to this camera angle at this point? I'm still either to the right or behind the dash camera. And do you see the defendant or Miss McCabe in this view? No. And this is at 62418. Could you continue to 62625, Miss Gilman? Did you notice the first person that came from the right and the second person that are not law enforcement. Um, that was myself and I think that's Jen McCabe. 62625. Continue, please. And do you know who that is on the right with the police officer? That was Karen. Do you know where the cell phone is at this point? Mr. O'Keefe's cell phone. I don't know. I could have handed it to a first responder at this point or it could still be in my pocket. I'm not sure. Miss Gilman, if you could next stop at 63448. [Music] Was that you walking by in the street? Yes. [Applause] All right. Do you know who you speaking with? I don't know. Court is us back to session. You may be seated. Yes. M. Roberts, we have about a minute and a half left. I want to watch the video until it reaches 6:35. Please, Miss Gilman. Do you know where you are at this point, Miss Roberts? No. Could fast forward just a little bit more, please. Were you in the car? I just got out of the car. And do you remember if your car was warm? Yes. Stop. 63436. Do you see yourself? Yes. I just got in the driver's side of my car. And at that point, do you remember whether you still had John's cell phone or you had given it to a first responder? I don't remember. Between you having it in your pocket and giving it to a first responder, did you put it or place it anywhere else? No. Did you take it out of your pocket and place it in the elements at all? No. So, it was either in your pocket or in the hands of a first responder? Yes. Thank you for your time. [Music] Your honor, may I? Thank you. Good morning, M. Roberts. How are you? Good morning. Um, under questioning by Mr. Brennan, you talked about the number of times or a number of times that you have spoken to the DA's office or some member of the DA's office. I'd like to ask you a couple of questions about that. Sure. How many times in total do you think you've spoken to a representative of the district attorney's office? I I don't I don't have a number. Would you say it's more than a dozen? Yes. Uh would you say it's more than 50? Maybe around there. Okay. Maybe less. And who are the folks, Miss Roberts, that you have spoken to at the DA's office? Uh Steve Nelson, the victim advocate. uh Yuri Buchananic who's a state police officer and um the DA Michael Morsy and what was the sub I want to take those in order and two of those are at the DA's office one of those is not Yuri Buchanan is not at the DA's office he's actually a Massachusetts state police officer is that right yes okay let's take those in order um how many times would you say you've spoken to Mr. Nelson just if you can give me a thumbnail. I don't know maybe 30 40. Okay. Have you received what you would consider to be updates on the progress of the case? Um I would ask questions and he would give me very broad answers. Okay. U were your questions ever prompted by conversations that you had with your friend Miss McCabe? Jen McCabe. Sometimes Jen would say, "Could you ask Steve this?" Because I had a a rapport with Steve. Okay. Were those conversations by text message or phone calls or both? Um, I would usually text him. Okay. Um, what about the conversation with or conversations with Mr. Morsy, the elected district attorney? Uh, what were the circumstances under which you contacted Mr. Morsy? Well, during the course of this trial, the witnesses have been harassed. That's not my question. Objection. But I'm answering your question. Hold on. What's the I'm going to sustain the objection. Next question. Thank you. Were you phone Were you phoning him? Were you meeting him? Were you texting him? That's my question. The circumstances of the communication itself. I phoned the office asking for a meeting, had a meeting, and then he left a voicemail at some point and texted me and said, "I just left you a voicemail." Okay. Was that the extent of your conversations with Mr. Morrisy, the elected DA? I had one other meeting with other witnesses. Okay. And the DA. And turning to Yuri Bnik. Uh what were the logistics? I'll use that word instead of circumstances. What were the logistics of you contacting Yuri Bnick? Was it by phone? Was it inerson meetings, text messages, or all the All of the above? All of the above. How many times would you say that you've spoken with Yuri Buchanan? Spoken or communicated? Sorry, good point. Communicated with um probably 20. Okay. Uh when was the last time? Actually, let me ask you a different question. Have you ever met with uh Mr. Brennan before your testimony today? Yes. When what was the circumstance of that meeting? Um going over my testimony from the last trial. Okay. and sort of just asking questions on how what might have come this time. Would I be cross-examined? I wasn't last time. Just sort of, you know, all the things went through my testimony. Okay. When was that meeting? Uh, I don't know, in the last couple of weeks. I don't know. Okay. Where was the meeting? Um, at the DA's office. Who else was there? Different times that I would meet with him. Steve Nelson would be there. Um, one time, uh, Brian Tully was there. Um, uh, Mr. Brennan's assistant. I'm sorry. Mr. Brennan's assistant. Okay. Um, I don't know. Um, Adam Lai and Laura Mclofflin. Were those meetings? You said there was two meetings or did I misunderstand you? Yeah, I think there were two. Okay. Were those close in time to one another? You mentioned two weeks ago. Were those both two weeks? I said a few weeks ago, but the other meeting was just before I was going to testify. Meaning what? Yesterday, the day before? Um, last week. Was that also at the DA's office? Yes, it was. Uh, were you shown anything at that meeting? Um, was I shown anything? Videos, testimony, transcripts? Um, reports? No, nothing. I don't think so. Okay. We went over my testimony on the screen. Um, and then I just talked about my testimony from the last time. Okay. When you say you went over your testimony on screen, what do you mean? We watched my testimony from the first trial on a TV screen. Okay. So, you were shown something. You were shown a video of your of your prior testimony. Yes. So, I'd like to see council Saibar for just a minute, please. You are May I hear? Yes. Thank you. Other than watching your testimony, uh, were you shown anything else? transcripts, videos like videos that you may have seen today, dash cam videos, anything like that? I don't think so. Okay. I don't think I was shown anything. Okay. Did you discuss uh other parts of your prior testimony? Yes. Okay. What was discussed concerning your prior testimony and and how it would impact how you testified today on direct examination? Um he Mr. Brennan had just asked me, can you just tell me what happened? So, I told him the story verbally. Okay. Uh, anything come up about uh specific instant instances uh of how you were going to testify today? No. Or yesterday? No. Okay. Um, I want to talk to you a little bit, M. Roberts, about the video that you were shown by Mr. Brennan. It's the dash cam video of Officer Sarif. I'm not sure if you know which officer that is. No, I don't. It's the one that that you've been watching. Okay. That dash cam that shows your car in the foreground. Yep. Um I'd like to ask you a couple of quick questions about your memory of that incident and then perhaps show you the video depending upon what the answer is. Sure. Do you remember when the officer first arrived, you and Miss Reed specifically were at Mr. O'Keefe's body? Yes. Where was Miss McCabe at that moment? She was she was there, too, but she was waving down the first responders because it was dark out and he couldn't see us. He had a spotlight. You and Miss Reed were both providing some level of CPR, some level of life-saving efforts. Yes. As was Miss McCabe. What was Miss McCabe doing? when I was doing chest compressions and Karen was doing mouthtomouth, Jen was either on the phone with 911 or handing me baby blankets. Okay. Um at some point she did take over doing chest compressions cuz I asked her to. Okay. Um so Miss Reed was focused on Mr. O'Keefe's head, face area. Correct. You were focused on the chest. Correct. Miss McCabe was at some point at least she had called 911 or dialed 911. Yes. When Miss McCabe dialed 911 and was on the phone with 911, isn't it true that she was actually in a vehicle at the time? That is not true. She was outside. She was outside. That's your memory? Yes. Okay. Uh have you heard the 911 tape uh of that call? Yes. Okay. You're aware that that tape was also captured by an open line uh on Miss Reed's phone? Yes. That open line was that phone was dropped inside the cab of an SUV. It was in the back seat, I believe. Right. So, in order for that SU, sorry, for that open line to capture sort of the background of Miss McCabe's side of the 911 call, Mr. would have had to have been either at or in the cab of the truck. The the back of the SUV was open. She was standing there. Got it. Okay. So, she was right next to or adjacent to the cab of the SUV. She was in back of it with the the back was up. I see that back hatch. Yes. Okay. Um, do you remember Miss Reed's statement and her initial statement to officer Sarif when he got out of his patrol? I do not. Do you remember her saying something to the effect of, "My boyfriend, I left him. He never came home." I do not. Okay. Have you listened with audio to that dash cam at the moment that officer Sarafh arrives at the scene and y'all flag him down? We just watched it, right? Have you listened to it for the audio side? I mean, in other words, instead of focusing on the video, no. Okay. I'd like to ask you to do that with the court's permission. This is exhibit, it's been previously marked as exhibit 4. Uh, and with the court's permission, I'd like to play that from runtime about 3:50 and ask the witness to concentrate most readily at about 4:07, maybe 10 seconds into it. I'm going to give a little run up and then ask you to listen very closely to the audio. Yep. With the course permission. Yes. Okay, Evan. Stop. Do you recognize the the the video as being the same video that you just saw and you looked at on direct examination? Yes. Okay. In just a quick second, the door to the car, you're going to hear it open. I'd like to pay ask you to pay special attention to the audio portion and Miss Reed's voice. Okay. If you can hear it, go ahead. What happened? Stop. Did you hear that last statement? No. Did you hear a woman's voice kind of fainting? I heard I heard a voice, but I didn't make out what she was saying. Okay. Did it sound like she said, "My boyfriend, I dropped him off and he never came home." Objection. Could you hear that, Ms. Roberts? No. Okay. Next question. Um, that's all I have for the video. We can take that down. You talked about on direct examination some of the injuries that you saw Mr. O'Keefe having suffered both what you observed at the scene and then what you observed later at the hospital. Yep. And you noted those injuries, correct? Say it again. You noted those injuries. Those were Yes. You made You made note of those. Yes. Or at least some of them. Um, you said you saw a hematoma of some sort over his right eye. Is that right? Correct. And there was some significant swelling to his right eye. Correct. At the scene. Correct. Did you also notice a laceration just above his right eye, just under the eyebrow? Um, I I saw it at the hospital, but I don't know if at the scene I saw it. Fair enough. At some point, you saw that laceration to his right eye? Yes, I did. Did you also see a laceration to the left side of his nose? A smaller laceration to the left side of his nose? I don't recall. I know there was blood coming from here, but I don't know if it was coming from inside his nose or from a laceration. I don't know. When you said here, you're pointing to the left side of your nostril. Yes. And just basically just above the nostril. Correct. Yes. Right around the nostril. There was blood coming this way. Okay. Draining to the left side of his cheek. Yes. Okay. You also saw once you got to the hospital that his left eye had swollen as well. Now both eyes were swollen and filled with what looked like blood and his left eye was black as well as his right eye. Correct. Okay. You also indicated that you saw actually I don't know if you did or not so I don't want to put words in your mouth. I I apologize. Did you see his right arm? I did. Did it appear to you that he had some abrasions or lacerations? parallel abrasions and lacerations and punctures on his right arm. They were scratches. Scratches. M. Roberts, you've previously testified that when you arrived, let me take you back um instead of jumping right into it. After you met up with Miss Reed at Jen McCabe's house that morning, so this is just after five o'clock or so, the three of you arrived back at One Meadows, correct? Is that right? I'm sorry. Correct. Okay. Uh, you're trailing the Lexus SUV, correct? Correct. The Lexus pulls in to the driveway and you pull in directly behind Miss Reed and Jennifer McCabe is driving. Correct. You're driving your SUV. Correct. Correct. You've previously testified that when you arrived at One Meadows at that moment, um that once that SUV, the Lexus SUV had pulled in and you pulled in behind the Lexus, you got out of the Lexus. Sorry, you got out of your SUV. They got out of the Lexus. And that's a point at which Karen showed you the back of her tail light and said something to the effect of uh, "Do you think I hit him? Do you think I hit him? Oh my god, do you think I hit him?" Do you recall that? I recall saying, "I didn't know if it was when we were coming or going." But she did point out the tail light. Okay. Um, when you previously testified under oath, your quote was, quote, "Karen pulls in and I pull in behind her." Mr. Jackson page and line numbers when Yes. Our Frank Stevens. Sure. It's the SG uh SGJ, the grand jury, page 58, lines 14 through 19 for court and counsel. Thank you. Did you testify? Quote, Karen pulls in and I pull in behind her. Period. When we get out and Karen is now showing us the back of the car, saying my tail light, do you think I hit him? Do you think I hit him? Oh my god. Do you guys think I hit him? End quote. Is that how you testified? May I see it? Sure. I apologize. I've already got it up here. Does it have a date on it, Mr. Jackson? It does. 42622 approach. Yes. Thank you. Do you have the pages after this? I'm sure I do because in the pages after this question my question M. Roberts is is that a quote that I just said is that accurate? Do you see it in the in the Yes, it is. Okay. May I approach? Yes. May I approach? Yes. One more time. Thank you. Just for reference, I'd like to I'm going to show you both pages. That's the page I asked you to look at. And then the following page as well. Please take your time. Okay. What I'm looking for is still not here cuz I did say I wasn't sure if it was before or after. Miss Roberts, you do have to wait for a question. Okay. When you gave this testimony, you were in front of a grand jury, correct? I'm not sure which one that is. Um, do you remember testifying in front of a grand jury on April 26th, 2022? Yes. Okay. About two years ago. Yes. Um, sorry, three years ago. Um, you were under oath at the time. Is that right? Yes. Things were fresher in your mind at that time than they are now. Three and a half years later, I'm guessing. Correct. Yes. Okay. Uh, you were asked the the question to describe the circumstance when you arrived at One Meadows. Is that right? Yes. And the answer that you gave was quote, "We pulled into the it's a driveway. There's two cars and then two cars then a single. So, John's car is there. Karen pulls in and I pull in behind her. When we get out and Karen is now showing us the back of the tail, sorry, the back of the car, saying, "My tail light. Do you think I hit him? Do you think I hit him? Oh my god. Do you guys think I hit him?" That was your testimony at the time. Correct. Yes. And just to be clear, I'd like to take a look at a quick video uh that you may or may not have seen before. We'll find out. Your honor, I'd like to have this. Actually, this has already been previously marked as exhibit 12 C as in Charlie. Okay. And it's a short clip, so I'll play the entire clip with court's permission. Okay. Let's go ahead and take a look at that video. Can you pause? Do you recognize what's depicted in the video? Yeah, that's when we arrived at John's house. Okay. And who's the person with the plaid red pants? That is Jen. And who's the person that's just rounding the back of the car in front? That is Karen. What is the car in front? That's Karen's SUV. That's the Lexus SUV. Yes, it is. behind that Lexus SUV. Miss Roberts, is there another car? That's my car. And who's getting out of that car? I am. Okay. And this is the point that you were describing in your at least in the grand jury testimony at that time. This is the time that you're describing that I thought it was when we walked in. This is the time that you were describing, right? When you arrive at the scene. Yes. Or sorry, arrive at One Meadows. Yes. Okay. Let's go ahead and play this through. Okay, you can stop it. Um, and you can bring the lights up. You saw the interaction between all three of you and the vehicles, correct? Yeah. At any point, did anybody stop and take a look at the tail light or the the rear end of the car? Not when we were entering the house like I thought, but when we came out. Okay. And there's no video of that. I'm sorry. There's no video of that. No, I don't believe so. Right. So, the video that does exist describes nearly exactly the time that you testified that y'all stopped at the back of the tail light and Karen said, "Look, my tail light's broken. Oh my god, do you think I hit him?" Correct. Correct. Okay. Uh, and that obviously was incorrect. It was incorrect. So, your memory was faulty about that incident. That part of that incident at least. It happened on the way out of the house. So, your memory was faulty about that part of the incident that you testified to at the grand jury. Yes. Okay. Um, you were interviewed on January 29th. You've already testified to that, correct? By troopers Dunn and um My memor is failing me now. There were two I don't know who they were. Okay. I'm sure it's in my notes somewhere. Uh two individuals that interviewed you on January 29th, correct? Yes. Obviously, things were very, very fresh in your mind at that point. Yes. But I believe I was in shock. So, the incident had just happened. Yes. Okay. And you were asked to recount certain of the specifics about the incident that you had just experienced, not days or weeks, but just hours before. Correct. Yes. Okay. And you did your best, I'm sure, Miss Roberts, to to be as fullthroated as possible, to uh provide them with as much detailed information as you could and to be as honest as you could. Yes. I mean, you weren't going to lie to these police officers, right? No. In your very first conversation with those two troopers on January 29th, you didn't mention anything about a tail light or a cracked tail light or you seen a cracked tail light, did you? No, I did not. Okay. I didn't want to accuse anybody of anything. You were then interviewed on February 1st, 2022, a few days later. Correct. I don't know. Does that sound right? I don't know the exact date. I was interviewed again, but I don't know the exact date. Okay. Um, during your interview, let me withdraw that and ask a different question. On February 1st or whatever day it was, the the the subsequent time that you were interviewed just a few days later, you did then for the first time describe the tail light that you saw. Correct. I don't know. Would it refresh your recollection if you looked at a report? Yes, please. Okay. I may have just a moment, your honor. Sure. May I approach you? Yes. I'm handing you a two-page recording, Mr. Roberts. I put a little dot on the second page just to direct your attention to the discussion related to the tail light. If you want to take a look at that. Okay. Okay. May I? Yes. [Music] Does that refresh your recollection that you were interviewed on February 1st, 2022 by a trooper by the name of Connor Keefe? Uh, and a trooper by the name of Kathleen Prince. Yes. Did Connor Keefe write that report? I'm sorry. Did Connor Keefe write that report? Trooper Kathleen Prince wrote the report. Okay. Uh, does that matter? No. Nope. Okay. Uh, does that refresh your recollection that you did discuss the tail light at that time? Yes. And did you tell Trooper Prince and Trooper Keith that you noticed the back right tail light in the middle, quote, in the middle, your words, was broken and a piece of the metal enc casement was pushed forward. Yes. Okay. You didn't say that the tail line was completely shattered, correct? Correct. You didn't say that the entire lens was missing. Correct. Correct. You said it was broken in the middle. Is that right? Um and then you described today that a square piece was missing. Yes, that's the piece I was referring to. In the middle just in the middle of the tail light, though. That was how you described it. Yes. Okay. Um, I'd like to shift gears for a quick second and talk about a March 7th, 2023 text message with victim witness advocate Steve Nelson. Um, do you remember communicating, you don't have to know the exact date, but if you do, fine. Do you remember communicating in March of 2023 with victim witness advocate Steve Nelson about the Ring camera at One Meadows? Um, I don't know the exact date, but yes. Okay. Uh, is it true that you contacted him to inform him that the O'Keeffe needed to replace or wanted to replace the driveway ring camera? That same ring camera that we just literally saw through that perspective Yes. of you arriving. Yes. Did Mr. Nelson indicate that he believed that would be fine to replace to replace that ring camera uh if the O'Keefe's wished to do that? I don't remember if he said it would be fine, but at some point they were told they could replace it. It had broken. It wasn't working. Did he indicate that uh he would check with DDA Adam Lai uh and then get back to you? I don't know. At some point you were informed that the O'Keefe's got had sort of had the green light or the go-ahhead to replace that ring camera at One Meadows. Is that right? [Music] Yes. Okay. Uh and then ultimately you then relayed that to the O'Keefe that they have the green light. You've talked to somebody at the DA's office and they said, "Yeah, go ahead and replace the camera." Correct. Yes. Okay. [Music] Um, did you ever receive any kind of a response from the DA's office either before or after you relayed this information to the O'Keefe's to say, "Wait, hold on. We need to do a reconstruction. Uh, we need to make sure that the camera is in the exact same spot that it was at the time of the incident." No. Any any communication like that? No. So, the communication that you got was, "Yep, go ahead and replace it. It's no big deal." Correct. Okay. Ultimately, you learned that the O'Keefe did in fact replace that ring camera. Correct. You have already described uh your relationship at least in part with Canton police officer Sergeant Michael Lang. Correct. Yes. He is friends with you? His daughter is friends with my daughter. Your friend Lee with the family? Yes. Okay. And you're aware that he's also friends with the Albert family? No. Well, no. Were you aware that he that Michael Lank grew up with Chris Albert? I was not. Have you ever been in a social setting with both the Lanks and the Alberts? No. You're aware obviously. Uh you were at the scene. He was the first officer to respond uh to the crime scene at 34 Fair View on January 29th after uh officer Sarif and after Melanie arrived. Correct. Then it was Sergeant Lank. I don't know which order. I did see Sergeant Lank there. Yes. Was he the um was he the Excuse me. Oh. Uh, I was just reminded you indicated that you don't remember the date of that text communication between yourself and um and Mr. Nelson. No, I don't remember the date. Would it refresh your recollection if you looked at a text message between the two of you about this the subject of the ring camera? Sure. Do I need to know the date? May I approach? I need to know the date. Oh, okay. Sorry. Thank you. Thanks. Is it March 7th, 2023? Is that Yeah. Thank you. You indicated that you did recognize uh Sergeant Lank at the scene. Yes, I You had a conversation with him? Nope. I said, "Mike, is that you?" He said, "Yes, and that was it." All right. Uh, following that, the next day, you did go to his house. You've already described that. I did. Uh, you indicated that you went to his house to drop off your daughter for a play date. Is that right? Yes. But you also indicated that you took Jennifer McCabe with you. Yes, cuz I drove Jen McCabe to the O'Keefe's house. So, she was leaving to go home with me. So, I was going to drop her off. Okay. So your memory is you took Miss McCabe from where? Over to the Lank's house. I think she was at home. So you picked her up? Yes. At her house? Yes. With anybody else? With my daughter, my son. I picked up her and either one or two of her daughters. I don't remember. And then you drove over to to the Len's house. Is that right? Nope. I drove to the O'Keefe's house first. Yes. And what did you do with the occasion? Left a couple of kids and my daughter wanted to go to the Lank's house. So I do drove my daughter to the Lank's house before driving home. And Jen's child was with you on the way from Jen's house over to the O'keefe's house. Yes. One or two daughters? I don't know. Dropped the one or two kids off at the O'Keefe's. Is that right? As well as my son. As well as your son. Then you went to drop off your daughter for the play date. Well, she was 13, so I was on a play date. What? I don't know what you're called. I know. I know. I don't have a 13-year-old. What? A a date date. Whatever it is. So, she went over to her friend's house. Yes. Okay. Uh but you took Jennifer McKay with you? Yes, cuz I was driving her home. Back to her house without her kids. Yes, she was going home. Were you going to go back to the O'Keefe's and pick up her kids and then take all of them home? I didn't have a plan. I mean, Patrick Okay. nephew is my son's best friend. Got it. So, he wanted to be with him. Okay. Did you I I think you just answered this, but I'm want to make sure I'm clear about it. You didn't take separate cars. You all went in the same car. Is that right? Correct. Okay. Um, did anybody stop by or go by 34 Fair View during that that roundabout? No. Nobody stopped off at at 34 Fair View either on the way or on the way back. No. Okay. I don't believe so. That wouldn't be the route in which to get to my house. Right. Exactly. Um you indicated that you stayed even though you were dropping off uh your daughter, y'all stayed, you and Miss McCabe stayed at Sergeant Lank's house for some 45 minutes. Does that sound about right? Yeah. And Sergeant Lank's wife you indicated was in the backseat of your car? Yes. Did y'all ever go inside the house? Uh, Jen went in to go to the bathroom. Was Sergeant Lank there? I don't know. I didn't go in. You didn't have any communications with Sergeant Lank? I'm sorry. You didn't have any communications with Sergeant Lank himself, Mike Lank on that trip? No, I did not. But you don't know whether or not Jen did? I don't know whether or not Jen did. She went in the house to go to the bathroom. Okay. You've indicated that there have been occurrences in which Jennifer McCabe has asked you to contact the DA's office on her behalf to ask a question here or there uh get some information. Correct. To Steve Nelson. Yes. Okay. How many times just a number of times the volume would you say that Miss McCabe has asked you to reach out to the DA's office in one particular or another? Um, not I don't think very many. What does that mean of of the 50 times that you've had? Maybe like four. Not many to my knowledge. When you would on these four occasions or four or so occasions when you would reach out to the DA's office, gather information, whatever that information may be, uh, would you then report that information back to Miss McCabe? Yes. Okay. You obviously understand the importance of providing statements to law enforcement that are uh free of influence of other people, other witnesses. Is that right? Say it again. You understand the importance of providing information to law enforcement as a witness to law enforcement free of influence from other people. Yeah. Yeah. In other words, you want to be as accurate and as independent as possible. Yes. Um and that's because if if your statement is somehow or if your communications with law enforcement are somehow influenced by others, it might call into to question the credibility of the person providing the statement. Objection. Do you can you answer that question, Miss Roberts? No. Okay. Next question. Sure. A statement that's been colored by influence from someone else would lack credibility. Right. Objection. Sustained. I want to talk about the statements and the prior testimony that you have provided in this case, Miss Roberts. Uh there's been several of them. The first time you told your story law enforcement was on January 29th. We've already established that. Correct. Say that again. It was on January 29th. The first time you you relayed your story to law enforcement. Yes. And that was to uh trooper Dunn and trooper de Chico. That's the name I couldn't remember. I don't remember. But you do remember trooper Dunn. I remember two troopers. I don't know their name. Okay. Uh where did that interview take place? In my dining room. And who was with you when you gave that interview if anybody? My husband was home. I don't think my I think my daughter was home at that point. I don't My husband was home. I don't know if the kids were home. Nobody else from outside the family? No. Okay. Um, who contacted you about doing that interview? How did they know to come to you at your home? I don't remember. They may have just shown up. I don't remember. Okay. Um, do you remember what time the interview was? Maybe around dinner time. Maybe around 5, 6. Was it recorded? I'm sorry. Was it recorded in any way? Tape recorded running? I don't think so. The troopers were taking notes obviously I believe. So during your conversation with uh and I'm I'm jumping around a bit so I apologize. During your conversation or conversations with Mr. Brennan and the DA's members of the DA's office in preparation for your testimony, were any of those interviews recorded? No. Was anybody taking notes? No. Nope. None of the DAs were actually taking notes. The ADAs? I didn't look around the table to see if anyone was taking notes, but I didn't see them taking notes. No pads and pens on the table. There's a lot of stuff on the table, but I didn't see anybody taking notes. Okay. Um, you received a phone call just before that interview started at 5:25 p.m. Correct. Around 5:00, 6:00. Is this the night of the 29th? You mean this is the night of I'm jumping back to the night of the 29th? Yeah. I'm not following you very well. That's okay. um on the 29th. Yeah. And you were interviewed around 5:25 p.m. Maybe just just a little bit before that. Yeah. You received a phone call just before that. Correct. I do not know. Uh isn't it true that Jen McCabe called you and spoke to you just before that? I spoke to Jen McCabe the entire day. Okay. Including just before that interview. I don't know. Did you tell Jen McCabe that you were about to be interviewed? No. Did you tell her at some point um that did you text her and tell her that the officers had arrived? I don't think so. Did she text you back and say call me right after? I don't think I don't know. Okay. Um, during the course of that interview, when the incident was still pretty fresh in your mind, you indicated that at about 5:00 a.m. you got a call from Karen Reed indicating that John never came home uh and that she was worried. Correct. Correct. You also indicated that she was worried that John may be walking and may have gotten hit by a plow. You relayed that to the the officers. Yes. You indicated that uh you met up with Karen Reed and Jennifer McCabe at Jennifer McCabe's house and Karen was hysterical and worried that something had happened to John. Yes. You also indicated that once you were at 34 Fair View, once you all had made your way over to 34 Fair View, Karen saw John and ran to him, although you and Jennifer didn't see him initially. Correct. That's correct. You said that Karen was repeating the phrase, "Is he dead? Is he dead?" over and over. Is that right? That is correct. You also indicated that if anything, she said that if anything happened to John, uh, she'd kill herself. Correct. That's what she said to me. Object. So, the objection sustained. Did you indicate at any time? I'm sorry, let me ask a different way. Did either of the troopers indicate to you after your your initial interview uh that if there was anything further that you could recall that would be useful, please provide it. Please give it to at that time. I I don't know. Okay. Uh would it refresh your recollection to look at that January 29th report? Sure. the second page of that report from January 29th. And there I put a little mark by paragraph 5. If you can take a look at that. Okay. May I? Yes. During this interview with Trooper Dunn and Trooper Chico, they indicated after you gave your statement that if you wish to provide anything additional, now is the time to do it. Objection. Sustained. Were you informed that you were limited on time uh in that interview? Meaning, we got to get this done. We're leaving. We're out of time. No. They didn't cut you off. Correct. No. They didn't tell you that that they had a a limited amount of information that they wanted and then they were just going to leave. Correct. I don't remember. I don't recall. As a matter of fact, they told you that anything you wanted to provide to them, provide it. Give them as much detail as you could. Correct. I don't recall. Okay. Um, you just read the the last statement that these troopers indicated, correct? If there was anything further she could recall that would be useful, please provide that information. Exact. May we approach? Yes. [Applause] May I? Yes. Thank you. Uh, having looked at the report. No, no, bring it to her and show her to her again. She's just It's the same thing that I just showed her. Having looked at the report, does that refresh your recollection about what trooper Paul I'm sorry, trooper Dunn and Jico told you at the end of the interview? I don't recall. It's not refreshing. I'm not remembering it. Even reading it, I'm not remembering it. I see. Okay, fair enough. So, as you sit here, the details about what we told or what uh those two officers told you are not fresh in your mind, and nothing's refreshing your recollection about that, right? Okay. But you do remember ba the basics of what I just described in that conversation with those two troopers. I mean, I they asked me what happened. I told them, but I was also in shock. You never said during the course of that interview that my client called you at 5:00 in the morning, just hours earlier, and said, "He's dead." And then hung up. Correct. No, I don't believe I said it at that point. It did not I did not remember that until a couple days later. I see. Uh, and in fact, when you were asked about that particular statement, I'm sorry, when you asked about that particular series of events, that never came to your mind. No. That literally the first words out of Karen Reed's mouth, according to you now, is he's dead and then hung up. Correct. When you heard that, you didn't take that to mean that she killed him. No, of course not. She was panicked. Correct. Yes. You did add that um I'm sorry, one other thing that you didn't add in your initial statement to trooper Dunn and trooper to Chico is anything about the tail light either. Correct? Not. Okay. Um, and you also didn't say anything about any sort of a Google search or the the praying that you talked about in the in the back of the the patrol car, anything like that? No. Okay. I don't know. I don't remember. The second time you were interviewed, that was the February 1st interview. That was with Kathleen Prince and Connor Keith. Correct. And you've just looked at that report, at least part of that report. Is that right? Say it again. Connor Keith and Kathleen Prince. That was on February 1st, 3 days after your initial statement. Correct. I don't remember the date, but I remember meeting with them. Okay. I want to make sure I get the dates down. So, I'm sorry to belabor this, but I approach. Yes. Would your recollection look report of that interview? It might. Okay. first paragraph. Thanks. Am I reading the whole thing or just the part where you dotted? This is the impression of the date. Oh, for the date. Yes. Yes. What date was it that you met with me? February 1st. That second interview was conducted at 12 Country Lane, correct? Yes. And who again lives at 12ount Lane? Jennifer McCabe. So, the second time you told your memory uh your story to law enforcement, you were literally sitting in Jennifer McCabe's house. Yes. And you had met with Jennifer McCabe before your interview. Correct. Yes. We were putting a timeline together. So, you two were actually prepping, that's a valid term, prepping for your interview. Putting a timeline together. Correct. We were putting a timeline together at the request of Mrs. O'Keefe and she was she Jennifer McCabe was helping you with the timeline and you were helping her with the timeline. Yes. We were putting together the events of what had happened. So she was helping you and you were helping her. Yes or no? Yes. Okay. Uh so both of you were assisting in each other's memories. Correct. Yes. I remember this and you remember this and you know okay now I remember this. Correct. Yep. Obviously, uh that would help influence your memory going over the event with someone someone else, correct? Yeah. So, what's on that timeline, you would agree, is not completely independent your memory. It's a combination of your memory, Jennifer McCabe's memory. Isn't that right? Yes. May I have just a moment, y'all? Yes. Thank you, your honor. Um, so the two of you drew out some sort of a a timeline for you to follow during the course of that interview. Is that right? For me to follow what? During the course of that that February 1st interview as you were interviewed in Miss McCabe's house. I mean, that was the purpose of the timeline to help you with that interview. No, that wasn't the purpose of the timeline. You used it for that purpose, though. Obviously, we did not. I was at Jen's house making a timeline and the two officers showed up to interview her. I just happened to be there. Right. And when they interviewed you, did you have that timeline in front of you? That's my question. No, I did not. Okay. But you had just created it with along with Jennifer McCabe. Uh some of it. Okay. Um and then it was after that uh that this timeline was coordinated between the two of you that you actually told your second story to Trooper Prince. And when I say second story, I mean as the second time you were interviewed on February 1st as opposed to January 29th. Is that right? Yes. Did you ever become aware of text messages that Jennifer McCabe was sending to others in a group chat talking about you in that interview? No. You were never told or became aware that she sent text messages to a group as she listened in on your interview? No, I don't think she could listen in. She wasn't anywhere near me. You weren't aware that she or are you aware as you sit here that she sent a text message that said she's telling them everything, all the stuff sustained. Have you ever been provided uh a text message or told about a text message that perhaps Jennifer McCabe was sending to a group? No. Listening to your to your uh suggesting that she was listening to your interview? No. The third time you told your story was later that night in a telephonic interview. Is that right? With Trooper Proctor. I requested to speak to Trooper Proctor because I had remembered the very first time I spoke with Karen that morning and I wanted to make sure it was recorded. Okay. That wasn't my question. My question was, did you have another telephonic conversation with Trooper Proctor? Yes or no? You said that night, but it wasn't that night. When was it? I think it was earlier that day. Okay. Meaning, but it was after the interview with Trooper Prince. I don't think so. I think it was beforehand. I think it was beforehand. You were still with Jennifer McCabe when that call took place. Correct. I was in her house. I was not with her. I stepped away to speak to him by myself in her home at 12 Country Lane. Correct. Who else is with you other than other than Jennifer McCabe in the house? Uh her sister was there writing down the timeline for us. Her sister Denise. Denise. So she was scribing the timeline as you and Jennifer McCay were creating it. She was writing it down as we were remembering things. Right. Um, and the three of you were doing this together, sort of communally. Yes. She would say something, then you would say something, then it would spark something that she would say, and back and forth. Correct. Yes. How is it that Trooper Proctor got a hold of you? Did you call him or did he call you? I think he was on the phone with Jen and I asked to speak to him. So, he got Trooper Proctor got a hold of you through talking to Jen McCabe. Well, I asked to speak to him, but yes. Right. Was that interview recorded to your knowledge? I don't know. Um, the fourth time you met with police was February 2nd, the very next day at about 12:08 p.m. Is that right? I don't remember. Do you remember prov signing a a consent form uh for your phone? Yes. Was that ne the next day after this interview with uh Trooper Prince and Trooper I don't know what day it was. It was um right after Karen was arraigned for the first time Jen and I met with them and both handed our phones over willingly. So you you've just answered my question. So when you met with police, whatever the date was, it was a few days later you met with police. Yet a fourth time you were still in the presence of Jennifer McCabe when you met with police? Yes. And handed your phone over. Is that right? Yes. And she handed her phone over. Is that right? Yes. And the two of you were together when you signed your consent forms. Is that right? Yes. The fifth time you told your story was in front of a grand jury. Is that right? I don't know. Do you remember testifying in front of a grand jury? I do. Let's talk about that for a second. Before you testified at that grand jury, just physically, you were brought into an anti- room where you waited to be called by ADA Adam Lowi. Correct. Yes. Who was in that anti- room with you just before you gave your testimony? Um, my husband and Jen and Matt McCabe. So, Jennifer McCabe was with you yet again just before you gave official testimony under oath concerning this case and concerning the incident. Correct. Miss. Roberts, when was the last time you spoken to Jennifer McCay before you testified in this trial? In this this morning, did you discuss your testimony? No. So, you and Miss McCabe, who became friends because of this incident, correct? Talked as recently as this morning before your testimony, correct? And your testimony now is that you did not discuss anything about what you're doing here? No. Or what you're going to testify to. She called to wish me good luck today. When did you talk to her the last time before this? Before this morning. I don't know. Maybe a couple days ago. I don't remember. Within days of you taking the stand yesterday. Correct. Yes. Did you ever? Yes. Uh, M. Roberts, I'm going to ask you to take a look at. Actually, let me ask a different way. Uh, did you say that you did or did not recall texting with Jin McCabe during the course of that January 29th interview with state police? Do you recall that or no? Do No. Okay. During the interview, I didn't text anybody. Okay. Are you saying you didn't text anybody or or you don't recall what I don't recall? I don't think I had my I wouldn't I wouldn't be texting somebody if I was being interviewed by the state police. Right. Uh Okay. Would it refresh your recollection to take a look at a at a report of text messages? Sure. May I approach you? Yes. Thank you. May I? Yes. Take a look. There's two tabs. Take a look at the tabs and the and the data across the two tabs. Okay. I'm in a rush. May [Music] jur feel free to stand up and stretch if you'd like. And I forgot to tell you, anytime we're at eyebar, please feel free to stand up and stretch. Okay, that was quicker than we thought. Judge, may I proceed? Yes. Okay. Uh did you take a look at this document? Yes. Does that refresh your recollection that there were two text messages at around the time of your interview with uh with those two troopers? No. Uh did you do you recall as you sit here uh texting Miss McCabe that the state troopers were were arriving or they're just getting there? No. Do you recall Miss McCabe texting you anything back about calling me after? No. Okay. Did you in fact different question. Did you in fact call Mr. McCabe right after the interview and talk to her? I don't know. Okay. Have you ever testified that at the scene? Miss Reed was seated in the back of a patrol car along with Jennifer McCabe and you were standing just outside the car and there was an interaction among the three. Yes. Have you ever testified or have you ever said stated in any particular that during that interaction Karen asked the three of you to pray? Yes. Have you ever said or testified that during that interaction where you're seated where they are seated in the back of the patrol car and Miss Reed asked you to pray that Miss Reed said to Jennifer McCabe, "Google hypothermia." No, you've never said that. I've never said that. You testified at the grand jury on April 26th. Is that right? April 26, 2022. I do not right. Does that sound like April 26, 2022? I have no idea. Late April 2022. Does that sound right? I don't know. It was 2022. You you testified uh under oath, correct? Yes. Sworn the same oath that you swore here. Yes. Tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth of guilty and perjury. Is that right? Yep. Yeah, that's what I needed. [Applause] Is it your testimony that you have never said that Karen told Jyn to Google hypothermia or that you don't recall saying that I don't recall saying that. Would it refresh your recollection to look at portion of your grand jury testimony from that day? It might. May I approach? Yes. And if you can read on to page 83 as well. Yep. I testified. I didn't hear it, but I was told that she was asked to Google it. You testified under oath at the grand jury that at some point uh Karen was in back of the police cruiser. Correct. Yep. Objection. No, I'll allow that question. Does that refresh your recollection as to what you told the grand jury? Yes. And isn't it true that at some point during the the course of your testimony under oath, you said that Karen was in the back of the police cruiser? Yes. And then you went on to describe that Karen and Jen and I were standing outside and she made us all start holding hands and starting to pray. Yes. Meaning what the she being Karen Reed, correct? Yes. Um and at this point they had lifted John up and taken him onto the gurnie. Correct. That's what you described. I don't I don't recall. Okay, I'm going to do this again just so we're clearach. Yes, sure. At the bottom. At the bottom. Last couple. Okay. Yep. I say I think so. I'm not positive. I have a question for you. Okay. Your recollection. Yes. Okay. And you testified basically that you think at least that's what you were telling the grand jurors. think that was the point at which they lifted John up. Yes. And moved him into the ambulance. Correct. Is that right? Yes. Then you were asked a question. What if anything did she, Miss Reed, ask Miss McCabe while they were sitting in the back of the cruiser that you heard? Correct. Objection. Do you recall that? I did not hear the question about Google being asked. That's not my question. May I ask? May I inquire? Just repeat that question. Sure. Isn't it true that you were next asked by Mr. Lai in front of the grand jury, quote, "What if anything did she, Miss Reed, asked Miss McCabe while they were sitting in the back of the cruiser that you heard?" End quote. Do you remember being asked that question? No. We're going to look at lines 16 through 18. Okay. Yes. Does that refresh your recollection that was the question that you were asked? Yes. Okay. And in response to that question, you stated, quote, "At one point, she asked her to Google hypothermia." And how long? Google hypothermia. Correct. Who? I'm sorry. Yes. That was a very detailed. You'll agree that that's a very detailed and specific recount of an event. You recounted where you were back of a cruiser or they were in the back of a cruiser. Correct. Yep. You recorded or reported the time was right around the time that you thought they were lifting John up and scooped him up onto the gurnie. Correct. Yep. I thought it was about that time. I wasn't sure. I'm sorry I didn't get that answer. You were talking over each other. That's my mistake. What was your answer, M? I thought it was about the time they lifted him up, but I wasn't sure. Okay. Uh, you were very detailed about who was there. It was you. It was Jen. It was my client, Karen Reed. Correct. Is that right? Yes. You were so detailed that you talked about where you were standing next to the cruiser cruiser open door. Correct. Yes. What the others were doing, holding hands and praying. Is that right? Yes. And the actual words used. You were as detailed about all of that as the actual words used. She asked her to Google hypothermia. And how long? Then you stopped. Google hypothermia. End quote. Correct. Correct. You will agree. At least for that purpose, you painted a very, very detailed picture in front of the grand jury, didn't you? Yeah. Except it's not true, is it? I did not hear her ask that. I was told she was asked that in the The answer to my question, Miss Roberts, and I'm It's not a trick question. What you told the grand jurors was not true. You never heard her, my client, ask anyone to Google anything, did you? I did not. And yet that's what you testified to under oath under penalty of perjury in front of the grand jury. You didn't. I did. And the reason you did that, the reason that you said that false statement was because someone told you to say it. Correct. object. Is that I'm going to let her answer. Nobody told me to say it. I knew it happened at that time. Which is why I said it. How did you know it happened, Miss Roberts? If no one told you it happened because we wrote a timeline. We already spoke about that. The timeline that Jennifer McCabe helped you with that influenced your testimony in front of the grand jury. Correct. Obviously I I was telling what happened in the back of the cruiser. The timeline. So when you ask a question, let her answer. Okay. You wrote Jennifer's help influenced your testimony to testify in front of the grand jurors to a statement that you never heard. Correct. Yes. You were later asked about that statement in another investigation. I'm sorry, by another investigator or set of investigators. Correct? I don't know. Were you interviewed by a different law enforcement agency, a separate law enforcement agency from the Massachusetts State Police at any time? Yes. And you were told that to lie to those agents would be a crime, correct? Yes. Punishable by prison. Correct. I was not told that. They asked you whether or not you heard Karen Reed ever say anything to Jennifer McCabe about googling anything. Correct? I don't know. Isn't it true that you told them what you've just now told us, which is I did not hear Karen Reed ask Jennifer McCabe to conduct any Google searches. I don't recall. Would it refresh your recollection to look at a copy of that interview and that report? Sure. Yes. I'm going to ask you to take a look at the entire document just familiarize yourself with it if you don't mind including the front page and don't answer anything about the document until I ask your question if you don't mind please. Sure. Thank you. Mr. Roberts, do you recognize that as being a report of an interview that you conducted? Um, I've never seen this before, but understood. You may never have seen it, but does that remind you that that that's a report of a conversation you had with another law enforcement agency? I'm going to ask you to turn to page seven. that report. And if you'll look, there's a small paragraph about two paragraphs up from the bottom. I think I may have put a little blue dot by it, but I'm not sure. Please read that to yourself. Correct. Done. Yep. Thank you. May I approach? Yes. Roberts, M. Roberts, does that refresh your recollection about what you told these investigators? Yes. And what you told them was you quote did not hear Karen Reed ask Jennifer McCabe to conduct any Google search. That is correct. And you went on to say you saw McCabe on her phone. I'll allow it. You saw McCabe on her phone, but you did not hear Karen ask Jennifer to Google anything. Correct. So, what you told the grand jurors was in fact false. I misunderstood Mr. Ali's question. Got it. Thank you. Okay, Mr. Brad, any questions? Thank you. Thank you. When you spoke to the grand jury about your memory, were you trying to fool them in any way? No. Were you trying to objection? Watch the form of your questions? Were you trying to mislead them in any way? Objection. Sustain. Watch the form of your questions. Um, when you spoke to the grand jury, were you honest? Yes. When you were asked the question, what if anything did the defendant ask Miss McCabe? Um, did you begin your response by saying at one point you can show her her response? May I approach? Yes. Page 83, line 19. Going to ask you to look at page 83, line 19. Just read it to yourself and follow. When you were asked that question by Mr. allow at the grand jury. Did you ever say you specifically personally heard that statement? I'll allow that. Did you ever tell the grand jury you actually heard that statement being made? I did not. And when you spoke to the people in that report that you looked at on page seven, did you ever tell them you specifically heard that statement being made? No. Were you consistent in both of those statements? Objection. Sustained. Did you say anything different as far as what you personally observed between those statements? Objection. I'll allow that. No. And when you were asked about what the defendant may have said to Mrs. McC uh to Miss McCabe or Mrs. McCabe, um did you generalize your answer? Objection. Sustained. Did you begin your answer with at one point? Yes. Okay. When you chose the words at one point, what were you trying to convey to the grand jury? I'll allow that. I didn't know at what time it was done. Was that a topic of conversation around the time you were brought to the grand jury? At the around the time what? That you were brought to the grand jury to testify. This Google search was I don't know. Okay. Were you asked here in front of this jury whether or not you personally heard that statement? Yes. By me? Did I ask you that question? No. Did you personally hear that statement? No. After this happened, you discussed what had happened with people, didn't you? I'm sorry. Say it again. After you found John lying in the snow, did you discuss what had happened, what you saw with other people? Yes. Of course. Did anybody tell you that you couldn't discuss the trauma that you had been through? Objection. I'm going to allow that. Say it again. Did anybody tell you that you couldn't discuss what you had just seen? No. Didn't Say it again. I'm sorry. After you found John that morning, did anybody, civilian or law enforcement, ever tell you you weren't allowed to discuss what you had just went through? No. Did anybody ever tell you that you couldn't have support of other people? No, I'll allow that. No. Was this a traumatic event? Yes. Have you spoken to it about to to a number of people about it? Yes. Tell us why you would want to speak to somebody about what happened that morning? I'm going to allow that. Um, I've spoken to many people obviously that we all grew up with. Um, but Jen in particular, I do speak to her. I am friends with her. We went through a really traumatic traumatic experience together. Did you ever confide in other people other than Jen McCabe about what you endured that morning? Yes, many people. Why? Because it's it helps me get through and um it's whether John's family, friends, whoever. We've I've talked to a number of people about it. You're friends with John's parents? Parents? John's John's parents. You still friends with them? Yes. Do you ever discuss what happened? Yes. You were asked by law enforcement if they could have your telephone. Yes. Was there a warrant? Objection. Sustained. Ask it differently. Um, did you feel like you had any obligation, legal obligation to give your phone to law enforcement? Objection. I'll allow it. No, they asked for my phone. I handed it over willingly. Did you think you had to? No, but there was no reason not to. When they went through your phone, do you know whether they saw all of your phone calls that were on that phone? Objection. Do you know that? I don't know. They cloned my phone, so I assume they saw everything. Objection, please. I'm going to strike that answer. So, the answer is I don't know. What type of information did you have on your phone when you voluntarily gave it? Objection. I'll allow that. Um, text messages, phone calls, call logs, pictures. [Applause] You said that you stayed friendly and still are friendly with Peggy O'Keefe and John Senior. Yes. Okay. At some point uh at times do you try to help them with things uh daily? Do you try to help them with the children sustained? Well, you were asked about contacting the district attorney's office about replacing a ring camera. Yes. Whose ring camera was that? It was at one Meadows where Mr. and Mrs. O'Keefe John's parents are now living. Who um what motivated you to call the district attorney's office about the Ring camera? Because we knew the ring might be some sort of evidence that they didn't want to take the camera that was not working down without permission. Um, do you have a Ring camera? I do. Do you know if there's a difference between the actual physical camera and the iCloud storage that keeps the actual video on it? I don't know the difference. Okay. Um, did you ever ask to replace any hard drives or storage or were you asking to replace the camera itself? Just the camera. And that was in March 7, 2023. I don't know when. [Applause] You were asked questions about what the defendant said that morning when you were trying to help Mr. O'Keefe. Yes. You were asked whether you heard any comments about her from her. about dropping John off. Say that one more time. You were asked whether you heard any comments about her saying she dropped him off in the car on the way to the hospital. Okay. She said it to Mrs. O'Keefe. When you were outside trying to help John, were you ever told where the defendant dropped John off? No. Were you ever told where he was left? No. Was it ever suggested that he went into 34 Fair View? No. Was it ever suggested that he went into any house whatsoever that morning? No. Were you ever asked to go into the house to look for him? No. When you were being influent uh when you were being interviewed by law enforcement, did you ever refuse to be interviewed? No. Were the interviews all the same or different? They were all different. They were all different. Okay. Um were you ever asked to give a complete review and detail of everything that you knew? Um, I was just asked to tell me the story of what happened that morning. And at some point when you were interviewed, you were asked about the phone calls that the defendant made to you that morning at 5:00. Yes. When you received those phone calls, Jennifer McCabe was not on the line, was she? No. Was she a party to the calls? No. Did she influence your memory in any way about the words that the defendant spoke to you that morning? Objection. I'll allow that. No. Do you have a clear memory of what the defendant said to you on the morning of January 29th, 2022 at around 5 in the morning when she first called you? Yes. And is it your independent memory? I'm saying, is it your independent memory? Yes. How well do you remember it? Objection. Sustained. Tell us what you remember her saying to you. Objection. I'll allow it. When she first called, she said, "John's dead. Carrie, Carrie." And hung up. And she called you back. She called back. When she called back, was there any other party on the line other than you and her? No. What do you remember the second time that she called you? Yes. She said, "John, I think he got hit by a plow. He did not come home last night. He would never not have come home. I wasn't supposed to stay in Canton and Kaye was here." He would never leave Kaye by herself. Did anybody ever ask you to lie? No. Or exaggerate? No. Would you say that? Would you? No. Sustained. You were asked whether or not you told people on January 29th about the missing pieces to the defendant's tail light. And you began to say you didn't tell anybody that morning. I didn't think it had anything to do with John. I didn't want to point fingers at anybody. Why not? Because I had no idea what had happened to him. I wasn't going to point fingers at his girlfriend. Um, was it in fact broken with missing pieces that morning? Yes. You saw the ring video of you and Miss McCabe and the defendant going into John's house? Yes. Had you seen that video before today? Yes. Had you been shown it before in other proceedings? Yes. When you went into the house with Miss McCabe and the defendant, did you do anything before you went into the house? Actually, in the house when I took off we took off our shoes in the You took off your shoes. We Jen and I both took off our boots. Why did you take off your boots? Because you had to take off your shoes to go into John's house. Well, you say you had to. to explain to us a little bit of the background on that. John was a neat freak. You were not allowed to wear shoes in the house. Had you ever worn shoes in his house? No. Had you ever seen anybody wear shoes in his house? No. You and M? They do now. They do now. You and Miss McCabe took your shoes off? Yes. Did the defendant take her shoes off? She did not. How do you remember that? because Jen and I were standing there for about a good two minutes trying to get our boots off and she had already gone in the house. Do you know why you were called that morning? No. Did you volunteer to be part of this? Yes. After the call? Yes. You had said you thought that you were you looked at the tail light before you went into John's house. Yes. Do you remember actually seeing the tail that light that morning? I do. Was it simply cracked? No. Um, do you know that the portion of the ring video from when you came out of the house with the defendant, Miss McCabe, do you know that that portion is missing? Objection. Sustained. Have you ever seen any ring video depicting when the defendant was showing you her missing pieces of tail light that morning? No. Despite no video, are you certain that you saw it? Say it again. Are you certain that you looked at it with the defendant that morning in that driveway? Objection. Sustained. I'd like to play clip three, please. Okay. Objection. Okay. Quiet folks still on the record. It is now. All right. Go ahead. Mr. Brennan, when you first got to John and you were trying to save him that morning, do you have a distinct memory of it? Yes. Council had asked you if it was your story. Was this a story? Say it again. Was it a story that you told? A story? Yes. It's what happened. Do you wish it wasn't just a story? Objection. Sister, I have no further questions. Okay. So, recross. You just asked just a few minutes ago. Did you ever say that you actually heard that statement about that Google search? And you said no. Correct. The question that was posed to you by Mr. was what if anything did she Miss Reed ask Miss McCabe while they were sitting in the back of the cruiser that you heard? Correct. I misunderstood the question. And you you misunderstood that question? Yes. What did you misunderstand about that question? I didn't know it was that you heard. So I was explaining what happened in the back of the car. I see. So, you just ignored the part literally the part of the question where he said, "What did you hear her say?" That's what your testimony is. I just heard and I didn't I didn't hear it. I obviously got the question wrong cuz I did not hear anybody ask about a Google search. Well, I know that's what you're saying now. I get that. But when you were asked what if anything did she ask Miss McCabe while they were sitting in the back of the cruiser that you heard? Your immediate answer was at one point she asked her to Google hypothermia and how long dash Google hypothermia end quote. Correct. Correct. That was your answer. Yes. Correct. To a question I misunderstood. And that was a false statement, wasn't it? Technically. Technically. Yes. Technically. Getting pregnant. Miss Roberts. Okay. So, remember juror, I said earlier, comments of counsel are not evidence, and you're to disregard them. Ask a question. Thank you, your honor. What do you mean technically? Technically, I was under oath and I did not hear Jen. Karen asked Jen to Google it. And yet under oath, but I knew it happened at that time. And yet under oath, you said you did. Correct. And that was a lie. Correct. Objection. Was that a lie? Did you lie? I did. Not intentionally, but you did. And not intentionally. Okay, that that's the end of this. Understood the question, Mr. Jackson. All right. Is there any other question or is that it? I didn't hear what you just said. I said I misunderstood the question, Mr. Jackson. That's what you're saying now, correct? That's what happened. All right. Can I ask one more question? Okay. In that quote, you said at one point she asked her to Google he hypothermia and how long. Then you corrected yourself and finished with Google hypothermia. What did you mean by how long? What were you about to say? I don't recall. Had someone told you something about a phrase that started with how long? I don't recall. I don't recall. Like for instance, how long to die in cold? I don't recall. Okay. All right, Miss McCet. Thank you. [Music]