I'm with Kevin Raber Thomas Knoll and I'm Michael Ryan and we are on the good ship True North on the Kimberley coast of Western Australia in what I just checked is the officially the Indian Ocean which is kind of weird to be in the Indian Ocean Australia but here we are and we're on the last day of a POTUS workshop for phase one and it's been a lot of fun and we're here to talk about several things but Kevin why don't you take because you had some opening thoughts well opening thoughts I suppose as Thomas Noah was kind enough to give us a presentation last night in the history of Photoshop which was actually quite fascinating to actually know where the roots of a program that affects almost every photographer in the world actually originated from and Thomas was going to share a little bit about the history of Photoshop with us and then we have a few other questions for autonomous so maybe we should just kick it off into the history and okay it's essentially the story of I was raised in a family with three boys and I'm the eldest boy and my the middle son was John who was my partner in Photoshop and then we had Peter who's the youngest and Peter is acting that part of the story unfortunately he did some very interesting things with his life but but not related to Photoshop John sort of figured out what he wanted to do with his life very early on and that started pretty dramatically in I believe 1977 when he was 14 years old and the movie Star Wars came out the very first Star Wars and John saw that movie five or six times that summer and he's basically decided that's what he wants to do for a living so he wanted you wanted a wanted to be Luke Skywalker no he wanted to make special effects for movies like Star Wars that's more realistic yes and he spent a lot of time there in our family basement building models of various spaceships and creatures and he had little rubber molds and and fake eyeballs on these when I picture and did a one time he built a model house and he was very interested instead of filming the explosion of this house so he got some like firecrackers or something to blow it up and he got a 8 millimeter movie camera that he could run at a very high frame rate to slow things down to make it look more in scale but the problem was everywhere he looked on the ground he was unable to find a place of view it didn't have bigger objects in the same scene so you have a house with a 5 500 foot tree behind it or some threw off the scale so the only place he could figure out that it could directly film this explosion was on the roof of our my parents house so apparently he Crowley crawled up there I was not around at the time fortunately at the very peak of the roof setup his things out of the camera film the explosion but you couldn't see in any of the objects that would break the illusion of scale so here was more so you see his filming special-effects explosions already when he was still in high school and he sided he wanted to go to USC film school and sort of manage to talk talk his way into some visual effects studios in the los angeles area he went out with my dad one time for a my dad went to a conference in Los Angeles and he sort of talked his way visiting some visual effects studios and when they were when he was doing the preliminary work on a phone they had no idea that he was like a junior in high school the time before an internship or something but he managed to get in there and find out a lot of information and sort of impress the people involved so he had a lot of encouragement and he went to film school you know taught himself motion control camera technology and actually built some equipment to do that and rent and actually did some commercial work using that homemade motion control camera that he and he used those skills when he who graduated to get a job at Industrial Light and Magic as a motion control camera operator straight out of college was it was then and still is which places and this is the visual effects house that did the Star Wars movie sure so he's he is working at the Zak same company that he saw made this wonderful movie that he'd inspired him to go into this and so he has really prospered there and as of a couple weeks ago they announced his promotion to chief creative officer that is a sort of like a co-president right so this is a really big deal for him that's a big deal he has like actually did exactly what he decided to do I'm a little different Oris I thought I was a little different but it turns out I was probably like very similar when I was a kid I had a hobby of photography I started out with a rangefinder camera and and my dad taught me how to develop film and make big prints in the darkroom and I learned black-and-white printing technology and color printing technology a little later I did some TV chrome prints and I was always frustrated in the darkroom sort of how difficult was to control the things you want to go in a print because when you make a black-and-white print you want to have your your the bright areas come out white but you don't want them burned out and you want the dark areas to come out near black but not not plugged and you don't really have that that knob in the darkroom anywhere you have a knob that controls sort of like the mid-tones and sort of raises everything up and then you have a separate knob with either variable contrast paper or developing time or something like that time temperature dilution yes right and you can select stretch the range but it doesn't but it also moves the midpoint a little bit but so everything everything's changing in the wrong way but you really wanted us a knob that you can grab it say this is my whites I want my whites right here and I want my blacks right here so I'd always sort of I I did little tables of I did some experiments with with with various exposures in the darkroom great and various contrast papers and try to figure out the math for doing plots that so I could actually you know move the points independently by bearing two parameters at once so actually use some of that knowledge when I started designing some of the features of Photoshop because I tried to figure out a better way of doing that now that we have digital technology and we're able to do things with a single knob that does exactly what you want to do rather than two knobs that you have to sort of fight across shotgun the other sort of hobby I had which is related to photoshop is when I was a freshman in high school our our high school had three teletype terminals and I believe two of those were connected to a time-sharing computer that we could you first you would type up your little basic program on the offline teletype and it would punch out on paper tape the actual program and then yeah when you you got your chance to go to the computer that was online you could upload the program and then run it and get a printout on the teletype machine I actually really loved this process so I you know spent most of my afternoons there writing little programs and it got pretty good at it and then the the math teacher at Heron High School in Ann Arbor you know talked to the local community college and and got access to for the high school students to the community colleges computers and and they were like fancier things and actually had like CRT screens so you guys can actually see some of the typed in you actually see it on the screen pretty revolutionary so I kept them going back and forth there and there's a local company called manufacturing data systems incorporated in town and I got hired by this company because the president decided sort of for I don't know exactly what motivated him to do this but he went to the math teacher at high school and sort of asked for the the the best computer programmer they had a true labor is what he's called and I got hired as you know when I was 11 grade of high school as a you know a part-time programmer and I worked pretty close to half time on that all during the school year and then when summers came I worked sort of 40-hour weeks during the summer and I continued working for them all the way through under my undergraduate degree and I all the time I was in undergraduate school at the University of Michigan I didn't take a computer class there's on the job training yes I'm completely self-taught in computer programming where did the stories of John and Thomas come together that happened sort of while I was in graduate school I continued on for my working on a PhD at the University of Michigan and the field to study I went into was computer vision mm-hm which is somewhat related to image processing which is what Photoshop is image processing is taking some input image doing some manipulation on it and producing an output image so it's changing an image to another image but computer vision is taking an image and sort of producing understanding that image the yeah so you look into the image you you understand the objects and the spatial relationship and the identity of objects in the in the image and the the problem I was working on was trying to figure out how to recognize objects when they were partially obscured so the classic problem at the time was a robot has a bin of parts and the parts are all stacked and randomly because the because they come in and the robot has to pick out the pardon has to be able to recognize the parts even if they're partially overlapping and there was in they self overlapping so it has to be able to figure out where to grab it and content to where grab and so III yeah I was working on this problem and you know I had to kind of efficiently do this this without sort of like doing this exhaustive search of every possible place where a part could be and you know what one of the tasks I had to do for that was like find the edges in this image so I wrote some little image processing algorithms that would take an image and produce find the edges and like one of those algorithms is a classic image processing algorithm called the Sobel edge detector and that is still in Photoshop today as the find edges filter okay so that was sort of the first filter that I wrote right and I wrote a bunch of these little tools you know simultaneously my brother was doing his day job at a duster light magic as a motion control camera operator and you know he had no you know taught himself model-making and then taught himself motion control technology and he sort of decided the next big thing in special effects for movies was the digital image processing or or computer graphics he was doing optically you know by photographing multiple pieces of film that they were that's like stack up and print and and there was limitations and how much quality you would lose every time you added another thing to a scene but my brother who started writing little computer programs to do computer graphics and it really basic really basic stuff like render a sphere around a checkerboard and to develop a classic things people do to learn how to do ray tracing algorithms mm-hmm and he wanted to run this on his Macintosh computer and yeah at the time simply just displaying an image on a macintosh required quite a bit of programming skill because he had to understand all the operating system calls to display an image plus the graphics displays were pretty limited at that time I owned a Macintosh bus at the time with had a black-and-white display and when I say black and white I mean black or white this didn't have any gray this was a in 1987 87 right and at that time this is just as the very first like the Macintosh to was starting to come out and which actually had an 8-bit display however he was like trying to render you know color image 24-bit color images so you would also have to write special code to approximate that 24-bit color image on an 8-bit color display so I had I had all those routines written as a little tool so I gave him a copy of all of my tools and he found them very useful and he could like do things but he sort of asked it's kind of inconvenient to run these as tools I'd rather just have a little application so the one thing I could drop in and then just like directly open the files and show them to people and stuff like that so I packaged up basically all the tools that I had like the display routines the the file format translation routines the like the so blood detector routine and that sort of built it all into one little application and I called that application display because it's primarily purpose was like Rita files in display you could save it in a couple of different formats and it could do really simple manipulation on the image but it was basically well just the name describes it you weren't able to do that much manipulation no it basically had almost no image processing capabilities runtime okay which is in last long because sure my brother sort of doesn't take no for an answer hey Tom why can't we do this we do that so he would always come back and and and sort of have a new feature and I often he would make a suggestion and I say oh that really doesn't know you know wouldn't work but I would sort of Mull on it for a week a week or so and say oh I can if I do it this way it actually be it would fit in with everything else and would actually be pretty easy you know it would make a lot of sense that I could work better than his initial proposal it would accomplish everything that he that he suggested so that went back and forth the whole at a time where he he was essentially requesting the functionality and I was trying to figure out how to provide that functionality in a way that sort of fit yeah with all the rest but at this point you were doing this for him was there thought in the back of your mind that this at that point that maybe this was a product not at the time because uh in reality I was working a PhD at the ERC Michigan and I had completed most of the research for that PhD and so I had my experiments done which were involved in writing you know computer code and taking images with the cameras we had at the time some of that so I had done all done all the fun stuff and what was left was actually writing the this very long paper after right so not fun stuff least for me I really disliked writing papers academic papers or creative writing or than a death that's not my strong point okay so I much much rather you know procrastinate and to the you know work on writing this computer program it became a whole lot of fun because the every time I added a feature become yet more powerful so be even more fun and the you could think of the next thing to add and stuff of that and and and at some point my brother said you know we could solve this thing you know everybody showed this to you know really loves it and says we should do this so you know he had looked in the found out the ad rates of Macworld magazine a little classified ad in the back and decided that you know we really couldn't didn't have the resources to to market a application because they require a pretty sensible investment to you know start a new company from scratch sure so yes if he if I would mind if he would like show it around to some publishers and tried to get some going I said sure you know but you know it's gonna be a pretty massive job to you know hurt this even partially done application into something that be a commercial quality shippable application so and he said ask me you can do it so he showed around a lot of people and we covered some companies and one of the companies we show to sort of went bankrupt on us before they could actually sign the deal so and some of the companies did not want to see the demo because they said they had something similar they're working on internally they didn't want to contaminate their engineers but we came to you know find Adobe and you know had a handshake agreement in September of 1988 and then we had to we had the basic terms negotiated already by that time but then you have to write the legal contract and you know a little clauses involved and that took until April of the next year in 89 where they actually all the layers were happy with the wording back and forth speaking of wording how did you come up with Photoshop well they started to display it started to display and then we added we're adding all these image processing features so we decided you know this why it doesn't only make any sense here and all we know you know we figured eventually when we found the publisher we that they would go through this extensive survey of you know marketing analysis and stuff like that then they would find the real name so we're officially picking a codename for this product so the first codename that the ice wouldn't Bennett was image Pro 4 image processor right and we had that a while and John so to do some demos and then heard that I believe IBM for some mainframe or something like that had some product called image Pro so so that name was sort of used in the marketplace already so the next name we came up with was photo lab and Don was doing another demo I believe a company that made the amiga computer and after he finished his demo they sort of went in the back room and brought out a box it's a deluxe photo like the product they were working on then one time I was giving a demo to another company because they wanted to show me some technology they had it turned out that you know my technology was a lot more terse in their technology but the the big thing that we got from this meeting was sort of explained how we had tried image Pro and that was used and photo lab and that was used and so they said well I've got a photo shop and I said hey that might work you might use that they said oh sure that's where it started so what was what was Adobe's product line like then do you remember well Adobe was founded their first big product was PostScript there's a language that they embedded in printers right and it would you had send basically a computer program in a language called PostScript they license this to Apple and included PostScript interpreter writing the inside the the first laser writer the laser right up remember that box rather than they were expensive outrageous and this was you know the the Macintosh the laser writer and page maker from all this we're sort of the beginning of the desktop publishing yes we created a whole whole industry there and shortly thereafter Adobe released illustrator which was a line drawing program based on PostScript the the math and side PostScript so you had the same kind of Bezier curves we sort of built into PostScript and designs do you know to create post grip that would you could print out so you had a very good you know page layout program page maker and you had a line drawing program and so the third piece was a good image processor ethics right and there wasn't one on the market and Adobe had PostScript and they had Illustrator and they were very logical company to do to sell the the third piece in this so your original deal with them was a licensing deal yes you know they would pay us some royalty out of the revenue of Photoshop and in out in return we would continue to work on the program and how long did that last that lasted until about 95 or so which and with at which point did dobby sort of got tired of paying me world these BOTS John and myself out looking for lumps of my butt so at the time up until say around 95 you weren't really an employee well I was actually I was not an employee until earlier this year someone they said Tom's gone to work Dobby you know gonna play just over a year well I don't know whether to say Mazel Tov or not you John and I formed a little company called Knoll software and we licenses to Adobe so I had it all set up that way on my taxes and I sort of really enjoyed not having to report vacation hours and write and all the kind of stuff would all go through performance reviews as part of an employee's so I sort of you just maintain that status as a independent contractor and even after they you know purchased the full rights to photoshop you know they would pay me a yearly fee for my services as consulting on it and I continued that up until very early last year and being 2012 2012 then I transitioned to actually being a full-time employee okay what why wait wait what motivated that what motivated that one of the motivations was health insurance because I had moved to California that's a good reason and I needed to get a California health insurance company because I can't keep in health insurance for Michigan and the California as my residency changed so right that was just one of the factors involved and other was I wanted to be a little more involved in some of the executive planning decisions of you know how Photoshop is sold and in priced and such like that sir so what's your type sorry I was gonna say what's your title my title is fellow okay fellow but means to my way of thinking is do you basically do what you want if it's it's the title that adobe gives to the people at the top of the technical chain of hierarchy right and they have a management hierarchy and that you know tops out at the CEO and they're primarily involved at you know beyond a certain level that that chain is that involved in managing people and to end projects and stuff like that and III wanted to manage technology somewhere along the line you actually switched from Photoshop into a dhobi camera roll and eventually into you know writing a software for Lightroom yeah where did that kind of transition into you know when I you know bought a digital camera I actually bought a Canon d60 back in 2002 when it came out and I wanted to use the RAW format inside the camera and I was not particularly impressed by the software that Canon was shipping with that and I thought I could do a better job than that and there had been this sort of long-term feature request from Adobe users to add a raw format support to Photoshop so I had this camera with the RAW format and I thought it was kind of an interesting project so one of the perks of you know being very senior on the Photoshop team is I get to pick what I want oh what feature I want to work with so I volunteered to work on this feature so I went off and essentially wrote the first version of Camera Raw the Camera Raw project was part of the Photoshop team it was just a little but it sort of grown over the years and and now there's sort of like a separate camera engineering team which which instead of a leader of we still you know provides a plug into Photoshop so we're still sort of considered part of the Photoshop organization because of that but the camera Rob plug-in the image processing part of the camera plugin is also used as part of Adobe Lightroom which is a application that was really design of the photography market because it could process many images because with the digital age photographers instead of like picking their best image and scanning it and loading in praat in Photoshop and spending lots of time on that and printing it out they they get a digital camera and they download their card and they have hundreds of images to go through so you really need a system that can deal with a lot of images so Lightroom provides a cataloguing work and very useful tools for synchronizing adjustments between multiple images but it Lightroom has a development module which is used to modify images and that develop module uses the image processing code that's from Lightroom so they're both the same and that and that's yeah once it's inside yeah yeah so I I wrote the you know the first version of the image processing code that Lightroom was using and the Lightroom team wrote the user interface that goes on top of that so they control a little slide they draw the little sliders and then they tell my code to what happens to that image went on that one here just that slider and then then I give them and give them the resulting back you're always adding a new slider huh yeah so we've been you know growing the the Camera Raw plug-in and Lightroom sort of in parallel for though and I've been working on that for the last 11 years now so is it leveling out or do you still see your features for it well we still we're still adding features that about the same rate so it's it's got a long future ahead of it it's been interesting to watch the evolution of Lightroom because I remember we were together in China at one point on a workshop and you told me about this secret project that turned out to be Lightroom and I got involved as an alpha tester and a beta tester or not I now live in Lightroom you know it's fine burned into my brain and fingers there's still features I don't know but like it's like Photoshop you know nobody can know it all but what interests me is and one of the questions here on this workshop that we've been doing this last week a lot of people say to me do I still need Photoshop I've you know I'm using Lightroom are I'm using phase ones capture one software or maybe they're using aperture you know where does Photoshop fit in to the typical photographers workflow is it still necessary for depends on the style of photographer you are and if you're a very straight out of the camera do minimal adjustments and printed out type photographer you know Lightroom was perfectly adequate for that there will always be a limit as to how far we can go in Lightroom in terms of doing very creative things well we don't have layers you don't have layers and so Lightroom doesn't do composites so you so like if you if you want to take multiple images and overlay them and you want to put this part from this image into this part that's really where Photoshop excels because it's been evolving for the last 23 years doing but that's more photographic illustration than it is pure photography well you can debate one without there whether you know you know right now if you want with you if you want like erase something from an image and photographers do this all the time they have beer can watch and now dare they and you know light rooms you know certainly with Lightroom 5 we can do it you know a much better job on these kind of things but at some point you know Photoshop does a better job of that ya know there's no question that yeah you know it's there for a lot of people but you know there is almost a naivety to the question yeah that some photographers ask because they feel uncertain because for 20 plus years Photoshop has been the program that I mean the name itself tells you what it is but Lightroom you know they go well can I do without Photoshop and it's almost like you know well will I be making a mistake and what I say to them is if you don't miss the features if you're just being a photographer doing basic photographic manipulations maybe Photoshop isn't something that you need to nestle we have very individual process but I'm sure there are many more copies of Photoshop out there than there are Lightroom yes if it's a very massively distributed program mostly legally or mostly mostly legally illegally unfortunately yeah yeah but there a lot of copies out there and it will do basically anything you want it to right well particularly with Camera Raw as being part of it and that's something I think you know if can be a little critical of Adobe and maybe of you I don't know the role that you played in it there is so much confusion about Camera Raw bridge Photoshop and someone will say well I process my RAW files in Photoshop and I say in Camera Raw they say what's Camera Raw and it's almost like they don't understand that these are separate entities they're plugged together they work as a unit and then I say well but you know Camera Raw is really the same raw processing engine as in Lightroom and they say now then I think the explanation to you know the typical user can sometimes be a little confusing any thoughts yes it can be confusing okay okay let's move along now let's move along to something that is has been controversial and that is in this first quarter of first half shall we say of 2013 Adobe announced that Photoshop as well as the rest of the Creative Suite are moving to the cloud and I guess maybe another way of saying that is they're moving from a perpetual license to a subscription model and a lot of the community responded very positively and said that's great and there are some real pros to it among them that you always have the latest and greatest and but a lot of people have looked at it and said well gee I don't want Adobe sucking dollar bills out of my wallet every month from now until forever and what happens if I lose my job and I can no longer afford to do I lose my pictures there are a lot of people who are who have been upset now where are we today what where do we stand where two photographers stand in terms of the whole issue of perpetual license versus at the subscription model well this has been a controversial subject within Adobe also and I first heard about this plan last October and one of the executive meetings which I go but in terms of widespread knowledge with an Adobe most people didn't know fine about this sometime this year and the exact pricing of all the arrangements was not revealed to us until fairly recently in terms of stuff and I expressed some of my concerns that for the photography segment in particular you know the offerings that Adobe initially came out with on the Creative Cloud sort of not so targeted at that there was for photographers there's not a whole lot of value at it by the cloud features yet we're certainly working a lot of stuff in the lab and there's really some really exciting stuff happening regarding Photoshop and Lightroom and the cloud and deal and all the interactions are there but you know as of right now there's there's not a whole whole lot of value added by the cloud features so you know people look at this you have purchased Photoshop perhaps a long time ago and if buying upgrades you know often very regularly or skipping a version I usually skip a version okay yeah you could certainly afford to I could operate every time there is because I know serious yeah I can afford to up to update every 18 months and I don't resent giving the money to Adobe I just don't often feel that there's a compelling need yes there are there isn't that much that's oh wow I've got to have that usually by 36 months then it's okay I'm falling behind the curve and then I'll go out and here's what they try to do is release something with some magic but I think cs6 was content-aware and you know to me that was worth the upgrade alone but you know some of us have to justify exactly what these new features are whether they really relate to the work we do on a daily basis so yeah and this is this is sort of been the fundamental problem with the sell a perpetual license and then sell upgrades model is that we're sort of driven to do whiz-bang features that demo well mm-hm and so the engineers are sort of pressured by marketing we have we have this release coming up and we need to you know sell the upgrades before the release because we need to actually make revenue because we're a public corporation we have shareholders and we have a duty to those shareholders to you know to make the profit yeah so we need and the way we make up we made a profit in the past was by encouraging people to buy upgrades and so we sort of design features that look well you know demo well and and and say oh I need to have the copy because of the that wonderful new whiz-bang feature MMH and a lot of the times what people are really valuing a product is the stuff that sort of doesn't make the top ten feature list of a release and there's been an effort at Adobe in recent years and the the phrase we use is just do it jdi's where we sort of respond to a feature request that's been long pending it's not not like you know you know changing exactly how some often used command works in a way that actually you know makes it a little easier to use or adding a shortcut due to some complicated operation that makes it makes it faster to use I'm sure and so if you know the emphasis is now on telling the subscription so there's no big buy-in cost any right and you should always have the current release so the software will go basically go out and download updates as needed yeah well either as it's also right there be the whiz-bang kind of things coming out you know yeah obviously we sought to do the whiz-bang things but we'll probably be more emphasis on doing things that actually you know the the goal is not to sell an upgrade anymore it's to keep people subscribing now right and so the people are subscribed just they're happy with the product and they find it essential to their workflow and and very useful so so the features we're gonna be concentrating now as engineers are more things that improve the usability of the product often you know you simply you you make some complicated features simpler and and and you're you spend time on optimizing the speed of some operation so you know it works faster and so people get their work done faster and they're happier in the end and they're less frustrated so the emphasis is more aligned with with keeping users happy that are using the product which is a good thing for the users because we're not concentrating on doing things that may show well in a demo but but not we were that really useful in reality because now our users are all actually using the real product and and and they're they're finding out for themselves whether it's useful in their workflow so but you know you're saying keep the users happy but this announcement has made a lot of users unhappy yes and there been a number of reasons why they're unhappy and probably the biggest reason is you know the the people who use a whole lot of Adobe products you know that have been purchasers of the Creative Suite in the past are actually uh generally pretty happy with the announcement because the the pricing is pretty reasonable on a month-to-month basis for buying the you know all the Adobe apps and and there's a lot of Adobe apps and use a three or four of them regularly it's actually a pretty good bargain it's less of a good deal for the photography community which basically only use Photoshop or maybe Photoshop and Lightroom and if you're subscribing on only to a single single application in the system you know the pricing is you know forty percent or so of the price of doing you know all the Adobe apps and if you you know the cost of that worked out to be substantially more than you know buying upgrades or every time a version came out so there's probably no question that the the cloud idea is a great idea but although there are other objections to it but uh in terms of you know being providing services to our users it gives us the engineers a lot of freedom and we can also constantly we can also take advantage of the cloud because that's sort of where the feature is to anyway so we can start adding more and more cloud-based features you know real cloud you know syncing between computers integration with mobile devices and stuff like that that are really not possible with it without a I think some of that's for online component pretty excited but know if you're a photographer don't want to illustrator you don't want you know some of the other Suites that are in there what's what is the the are what kind of solutions can we look at or do we just say we're going with it or we're not there have been meetings that I've been involved in amongst the higher-ups at Adobe to figure out a way to sort of address a lot of the photography Marcus concerns and we realized that you know selling you know perpetual updates to Lightroom and subscription update to Photoshop and to the combining all that you know the math doesn't work out right now right so we're looking at a sort of dramatically different pricing structure for some bundle or some combination of Lightroom and Photoshop that could be a lot more attractive to photography users a subscription system means that you don't have to wait for a whole upgrade cycle before we can get a feature on a future as ready from an engineering level we can ship it right away and the camera rock team as you know it has features in in the pipeline for version eight one and eight two and we're gonna be shipping your real functional upgrades that's great all through the cycle but there is one constituency very small one that is not gonna be happy about this well you know who that is product book writers and video training producers because we're where's the demarcation you know you no longer we're no longer going to have fixed models on a fixed schedule and what do we do well you probably do the same thing that Adobe's doing and you you've you know your training modules you know as a new feature comes out you need to update that section of the video okay so we're gonna move to the subscription model yes what about books to make training manuals a little more we haven't figured out that exactly what you know you know what the future holds right and and and how we come up with sort of major release milestones and some advances a few so you know book writers and such can identify yeah it's almost like the frustration this year well late last year early this year like a brought out the M it's no longer a made m9m ten it's the M and as a writer writing about this it makes me crazy because what M and I talking about it when they bring out the next one is it also gonna be BM they say yes well look Porsche 911 it's a 911 whether it's in 1982 911 or own 2013 911 I don't know it's not the same you're not gonna be identifying you know version numbers per se well you know each of the apps s does have a version number so you yeah but it's a good thing because it'll just be Photoshop yeah that's it it's Photoshop no more version numbers and because everyone theoretically well I don't know whether you might do both of version numbers but theoretically everyone will be up to the latest yes and so that's a good thing yeah you said something a little while ago in regards to you know trying to address the photography segment market and it sounds very much like you've been an advocate for this market up you me and Michael pretty much the same thing we're enthusiast advanced amateurs or whatever title you want to stamp on us so you've come up with a concept to put what Lightroom and Photoshop some way into a bundle at a different subscription price yes and instead of Lightroom is Adobe's new best photography centric product and we really if you're a photographer and you're not using Lightroom you're really missing out on a lot of the value that Adobe provides photographers tend to use Photoshop on a minority of their images but but it's essential for those images so they they really Lightroom and Photoshop go together really well and so you do the majority work what you can in Lightroom and then you do your detail unusual shot the composite type operations in Photoshop so the combination of Lightroom and Photoshop is sort of the we believe the perfect photography solution and you know there's a lot of debate within Adobe Management as to whether it makes sense to do a special deal for photographers to combine these two products into a single subscription at a very attractive price that if you do the math actually works out to be cheaper than keeping both of those updated in the past actually a very exciting product because it looks like we can price this to the point where we can attract a whole lot of new users into the Photoshop community and like every community and have a really exciting time coming so all the noise on the forms and everything it sounds like Adobe you know put their ear to the rail and listen very well well they're yeah yeah that's really good to hear yeah it's nice to hear from somebody inside it to hear thank you thank you for standing up for all of us okay yeah and thank you for this opportunity to hear a little bit about history of you and John and you know where Photoshop came from for a lot of people Adobe and Photoshop or just this anonymous corporate entity and and program and I think it's fun to know they're real people with real stories a lot of heart and soul in this and and then for the camera raw team a sort of a there are now four engineers on it and a crew requisite of hiring anybody if they actually have to have a love of photography so wow that's great and we eat our own dog food is a good time photographing together for the last week in an amazing area yes so yeah it's been all real good and it's been great sit down with you thank you you