Sound on Sound Podcast with Robert Henke

hello and welcome to the sound on sound podcast about electronic music and a things synth I&#39;m Cari and in this episode we&#39;re talking to Robert henker Robert is a berlin-based electronic music producer who&#39;s been blurring the boundaries between club and listening music since the mid 1990s Robert&#39;s also a visual artist working with lasers to create audio visual performances and installations on top of that Robert is an engineer a software developer and co-founder of music software company Ableton where he still plays an active role in the development [Music] department to get us started here&#39;s a taster of Robert&#39;s music under his monolake Monica produced using no compression which we&#39;ll talk about in a bit [Music] [Music] hello Robert henker and welcome to the sound on sound podcast hello Carol um lovely to have you with us I&#39;m really excited to unpack some of your work been aware of your work since I was a fledgling electronic music artist myself maybe let&#39;s start with what you&#39;re up to at the moment you&#39;re working with lasers I believe yes for the last 78 month or so I&#39;ve been working on a quite large project that now is as far as I&#39;m concerned nearly finished I am actually scoring I&#39;m I&#39;m providing a visual score from music from someone else for me that&#39;s quite a new experience because that&#39;s not what I usually do but in this specific case I found the project interesting enough to agree and it&#39;s also a great relev to honest to not have to think about the overall timing structure because the music is there and that means everything that has to do with overall shape and form is predefined and I can focus on entirely on my work without having the doubt about shouldn&#39;t this part be longer or shorter or any of those structural decisions because they are made and they uh is a surprisingly um liberating experience yeah almost the limitations give you more freedom because it&#39;s already there absolutely uh because the perception of time in music is such an interesting thing it&#39;s so nonlinear which means that if something is perceived as too long then maybe because not enough is going on or too much is going on or the wrong combination of things are going on if I am in a situation that I can&#39;t change the absolute duration of something then I can only work on the perceptual side of it so if something is boring in my opinion either sonically or visually instead of trying to change the length of it I try to change the the content until it matches Y and as you say you&#39;re actually not working on the sound on music for this particular commission however I from your lumere show that I think I first experienced Ableton Loop or might have even been in Manchester actually it was the sound with the lasers and you were doing both can you tell us a little bit about how were they working together I&#39;m guessing you using Ableton it&#39;s all Ableton and Max for life and Max yes my goal at the beginning before I started this project was actually to do something that is radically different from what I perceived was the usual practice uh I wanted to have a very asynchronous syncopated relationship between visual events and Sonic events so my idea was there&#39;s a basr and then as a response comes the visual percussive element and then comes the snare and then as response comes a visual element but I very quickly learned that this is not how our brain works because sound is slow and light is fast and if there is uh this two things if they are not perfectly in sync our brain either puts these things in sync again says no no that&#39;s all good we still in Sy or it says it&#39;s completely unrelated so this idea of audiovisual CounterPoint uh didn&#39;t work out at all and I ended up doing what everyone else is doing having really tightly synchronized events which was very satisfying on a technical level the the most significant strategy I employed was that I created some sort of um let&#39;s say meta note events what I mean with that is that I built in Mex for life synthesizes that basically can play a different sound for each node and that have lots of parameters I can control and I build on the visual side in Max uh structures that create visual elements and basically I tie to the same note a sound and a shape the connection between those two things is purely according to taste so it&#39;s completely arbitrary there&#39;s no technical connection I make a sound that sounds like a basum and I decide I want to have this this circle that changes size and color and um a few other aspects or I Define a high head and I have a different shape in mind and once I Define those shapes which go together then all I need to do is I create notes in live so and this note will just by its own nature create a visual and a Sonic structure at the same time and that proc made composing a very rewarding uh and fun thing to do I didn&#39;t think anymore in oh I do the sound first or I do the lasers first it&#39;s all one entity so I changed the pattern and the pattern defines how it sounds and how it looks and did you have to build your own software in order to make that connection between the laser and the sound or was it already out there if you know what I mean no no that&#39;s that&#39;s all my complete self-written stuff you could argue that it&#39;s a bit stupid what I&#39;m doing because there&#39;s commercial tools out there but I am very much into detail and I have a strong idea about how specific things should sound and look like and especially also how they should react instead of trying to force an existing tool with lots of workarounds to do what I want I say okay what is the easiest thing I can build by myself that does the job so there is this notion of an LFO because lfos are really nice if you articulate them if you articulate the speed and the modulation depth and the same LFO is present in the synthesis engine for the sound and in the visual engine running on a completely different computer uh and I managed that those two things are exactly in sync which means I articulate the LFO and you hear this kind of wobble sound and see a perfectly synchronized structure in the visuals running on a different computer uh my nerd brain is really happy about that uh because it&#39;s such a great technical achievement but even if you are not into the technicalities You observe this and especially if it&#39;s performed life I strongly believe that it transmits uh that the fact that I can control all these gestures in real time that I can respond to the moment and that this changes the sound and changes the lasers in a very meaningful way together there is some power in [Music] [Music] it of course you you are able to do all the the building your own software where bits because you&#39;ve been involved with Ableton from the beginning really so maybe you could tell us a bit about how Ableton came about really and your your part in the development of that uh well it&#39;s a long story is which is not a surprise I guess uh the the the core is that I kind of ran away from Munich where I was born as soon as I could because it was conservative and boring I moved to Berlin studied computer science and I met a person again who I knew from Munich and who also just arrived in building we became very close friends and we started making music together and in order to do what we wanted to do we wrote our own little pieces of software and later that person decided to basically found its own or their own company ablon and he asked me to join and that&#39;s what I did at the beginning we just thought that our concept of a more performance focused sequencing system would be interested for a small group of people so we we were quite confident that a very very small company could survive based on the customers in our electronic music bubble and and then things just very quickly started to became much bigger than we did anticipate so that&#39;s the the short story and I have been responsible for a lot of the decisions at the beginning I wrote a lot of the early effects and the one thing I&#39;m most proud of is operator that&#39;s pretty much my baby and it was never intended to be a big synthesizer it was just my take on building a small yet playful FM engine I moved myself out of the company at some point maybe 10 years ago to focus entirely on my art but I came back a few years ago also because I felt that I am too much mentally involved in it to let go and I felt it&#39;s important that I stay there and shape the future of it and and so I&#39;m trying to find this balance between being an artist and being a software guy yeah and as you say yourself you know we&#39;ve talked about that thing that quite often there&#39;s so much overlap or doesn&#39;t have to be a separation between being an artist and engineer as much as you have to balance that I think and more and more I&#39;m realizing in order to be you know deep in your art or to take it seriously you have to understand the science of it I I think there is some something going fundamentally wrong in our society and also very much I believe in education uh since a long long time that we we tell people that there is a separation between engineering and art yeah you&#39;re either one or the other you are either one or the other and this kind of there&#39;s there&#39;s these two completely inappropriate cliches out there um the one cliche is that the engineer this is this kind of person in the gray suit in the lab who is doing something really really complex that you need to be a math geek and at the end what comes out is a nuclear power plant and on the other side orders hundreds of thousands of Engineers developing something together and on the other side you have the genius artist who sits in their atellier beauti full sunlight coming in both things are completely completely wrong every engineering I admire is the result of intuition is the result of aesthetic judgment there is so much Beauty in engineering and so much a need for an artistic mindset if you have no inspiration you&#39;re a lousy engineer because you Tred to solve a problem in an elegant way uh and you try to find new ways to approach things and you try to invent I remember you saying you&#39;re also trying to actually answer the questions the problems that the user is having for them because they think they want this and that but actually you&#39;re having to understand what is it that they really need what is it that&#39;s missing oh absolutely I mean if that&#39;s the classical issue with software development users just request features and the users usually think they have the right answer for what they want based on how it works somewhere else and if you would just follow that and just add another element in the UI another button another function another pull down menu whatever you end up with a product that on paper does everything you want but practically becomes no fun to use anymore and you stick with Concepts that are old and if you instead think a step further try to think okay what is the real workflow that these people have and what what blocks them with their work then the solution is maybe not a technical solution but the solution is something very very different I don&#39;t have a good example in my head right now but in general the idea is understanding what people want to achieve on a on a level that has nothing to do with technology I think that&#39;s the key so you know just the the classical Apple iPhone success story okay people want to browse the web people want to make phone calls and people want to take pictures do people want to take around three different units um probably no if they could have it in one unit did typing on a keyboard turn out to be the most elegant thing to do can you combine a camera and a keyboard can you combine all these functions in one device and if you want to do this perhaps maybe let&#39;s get rid of the keyboard and use a touchcreen for everything that type of thinking that says okay we cannot just build this one thing by adding new things on top we also have to get rid of things or we need to rethink stuff yeah and there&#39;s so much imagination in there as well I think especially with tech music tech techology um it&#39;s it&#39;s kind of about getting the tools the technology out of the way in a sense isn&#39;t it as much as possible so you can just be because music is about Humanity it&#39;s about physicality so it&#39;s you know able to more than anything has helped to bring that back obviously with all the media compatibility and all the other ways you can control I I think Simplicity is a is a very important value probably very difficult to achieve oh absolutely because having something that is simple yet expressive requires a lot of intuition smartness experience I mean if you think about the the the tr808 there&#39;s so little things that you can do with those sounds but the sound synthesis in itself in all its strip dness is so much to the point that there&#39;s not much to improve there and the thing became iconic not despite the limitations but it became iconic because it is exactly what it is and to me this is a a great example for a design where the reduction created all these fantastic things that people have been doing with that thing yeah and do you know why or how it came about the Ableton came up with the clip Arrangement as well as the standard linear um Arrangements Windows because that&#39;s to me felt really really different when that that was the main thing about Ableton when I first encountered it I think that&#39;s we can we can say that we invented that the reason why we invented it was a mix of necessity and desire so the fact that this was audio Loops was simply due to the situation that laptops were slow so the idea to have eight tracks with effects and synthesis uh forget about it to have eight simple granular Time Stretch playback units for audio clips that was Within Reach so that&#39;s what we did the original idea for that came really out of our own music making practice we wanted something that does not require recording I mean both gard and me don&#39;t have a formal musical education and the thing we liked and still do like a lot electronic music is the fact that you can control a system and that system does the the task actually planning so the beauty of a drum computer is that you can program something and whilst you program it it runs and our tools and the stuff we wrote for ourself were always some sorts of depth sequencers and drum machines and what we did is we were just jamming with those tools in the studio and we&#39;re recording the result to that and afterwards spent long tedious hours editing those endless sessions into meaningful context and the one experience we made very often is that there was always this one sound or this one element that was too much and there was no way to get this out of the recording or had the wrong tuning or whatever just these things that at the end turn out to ruin your your session one of the ideas of the first version of life was okay there&#39;s the session view where you can jam with your material and can try out combinations and create something new in a flow and whilst doing so you hit this record button for the arrangement and magically you get a protocol of everything you did and afterwards you have the Liberty to say okay it&#39;s all good but this part needs to change that part need to change but the the conceptual idea was really that the the beginning of the creation is dis playfulness in interaction with the machine that does not require playing an instrument in order to get something on tape for us the idea of Performing was a mode of expression not so much a distinction between okay that&#39;s stage SL Studio I mean most of our users are not using live on stage but in their home Studios and from the very beginning we thought this idea of playing as a way of creating is what we aim for and playing for us non-m musicians basically was having a system that does some sound Creations some structure creation by itself and you&#39;re conducting how this creation works I think there&#39;s still obviously lots more that needs to be done especially I think accessibility in terms of visual impairment but how do you feel it&#39;s kind of hopefully helped or contributed Ed to a bit more inclusivity a bit more accessibility a bit more diversity within who&#39;s making electronic music from when you kind of started out let&#39;s say it&#39;s a bit ironic that of course we have been blamed for some sort of um mainstreaming unification of electronic music uh so oh yeah everything sounds the same because all made and abl so there is some voices that say we be reduced diversity at least in style and output which is of course you know to a certain extent true every tool that simplifies a process also suggests a certain outcome workflow as the easiest way to do it on the other hand this is by far outweight by the fact that we as you said enable people to express themselves musically that are not formally trained that don&#39;t consider themselves musician in the first place so this idea that hey there&#39;s this tool with which you can just fool around and have fun and then you do this and you figure out actually that fun is so significant to me that I like to dive deeper I mean this is how usually careers start you you you you start because you enjoy what you do and at some point you see see a path of turning this into a profession to a certain extent yeah and this whole process of enabling people is is something that is very uh dear to us yeah I think I can speak for the company as such that this is something which is at the core of what we like to achieve is that we enable people to do things and that we try to not suggest a a existing practice but Empower people to say hey extend what you do try what you like to do there&#39;s nothing you can&#39;t break anything it&#39;s software just do whatever you like to do with it and do it in whatever context there&#39;s also always the discussion there about how much does the structure of that software favor certain types of musical expression uh and makes it harder to find other types of expression and these are discussions are quite valuable with the release of live 11 I think or a little bit later we released this ma for Life micro tuning device which kind of stirred some discussion about what is the appropriate dealing with different tunings and that discussion had some interesting aspects to it we kind of were accused a little bit of doing it all wrong but my conclusion at the end of this discussion is that by offering a Max for Life device that does not tell users here is the right practice but just say Okay tuning means here&#39;s your notes here&#39;s some tuning values change it this is pretty much the the most open way to to deal with tuning in my opinion because you can import your own files so if you are into a specific uh nonwestern musical practice no one is keeping you from doing it but if you say well I like everything to be normal but the F needs to be 15 cent up because I like it like that then go for it if we can manage that we create tools that have this openness then I believe we have a good chance to enable people to create their own vision and in this context I believe the integration of Max in life is quite essential I I can clearly say that none of my works like really none would work without some part of Max my laser control that relies on Max for Life devices my performances rely on Max for Life devices for the seemingly boring but highly important task to generate more complex Medi mappings so that I have visual feedback on my medi controllers that I design by myself I have complex mappings where several parameters influence one Target and the other way around so max does not doing something that seems to be super exciting but it&#39;s very fundamental for the freedom of expression I have so the the fact that it allows people to extend something that might feel a bit Limited in itself into whatever Madness you want to extend it to I think that is not only a a technicality but this is also a mental proposal saying actually we not only accept that you do weird things but we deliberately encouraging you to do it it&#39;s a challenging one to be honest uh both for for a company who has to deliver certain standards to be accepted in a competitive landscape but also for not where uh there&#39;s always of course the the Quest for Unique expression but at the same time there is standards yeah I mean so so much discussions happening about how to tune your Bas drums right how to master correctly how to do honestly I think we had a very luxurous situation in the early 90s mhm that there was no canonical practice which means everyone did what they found was appropriate and the result was sometimes going in questionable directions but more often the result was truly unique discoveries yeah which is what a lot of the Pioneers you know the sisters with transistors film covers from suzan chani through to Lori spegel through to all these women saying that it wasn&#39;t defined it wasn&#39;t defined there for it was especially welcoming for those women because they didn&#39;t have um mainly um other people telling them what they should sound like or what they should do and I felt that myself when I started out I was in a room on my own so no one could tell me what I should do and shouldn&#39;t do which was yeah how I how I defined my sound absolutely I mean we I can only say from from early monol days we did everything wrong and if if I listen to this old stuff now then I&#39;m scratching my head and think I should do more things wrong again yeah I mean I remember interviewing you when I was at Sound Engineering School actually here in Manchester and um I was really quite Enchanted by the fact that you&#39;d produced silence um your mon Lake album with using no compression was what I heard so therefore I had to find out more from you because at the time I was being told about well on every signal chain or most signal chains you&#39;ll put EQ then you&#39;ll put compression and then on the masterbus you&#39;ll do this and it was so refreshing to hear from you why and how you&#39;ve done that I I I think there&#39;s two problems of our uh time the one problem is the internet and the other problem is the abundance of tools the internet makes it really hard to find peace in your own mind without being exposed to everything else if if you start with any artistic practice and your social media stream is full of photos sound bites whatever of all the other people worldwide doing similar stuff why do you even bother to start there&#39;s always someone who did exactly the same that you wanted to do but much better already that seems to be quite disencouraging and the other thing is that you can spend probably your whole life being afraid of not having the right basr sound if there&#39;s no internet and you have this drum computer that you found for cheap on a secondhand jop well then you don&#39;t worry about your P drum sound or maybe you figure out that if you raise the gain of your mixer and it distorts that this is more how you want it but that&#39;s it so instead of being concerned for a long time about the right sound you say okay that&#39;s my basr and you figure out how to actually create your groove in a meaningful way I have a tendency these days to enjoy working with limitations a lot because the limitations guide me in this regard the the project from which I learned most was the the thing with these old computers that I started now almost six years ago wow time flies yes I wanted to ask you about them but first I want to hear about the silence album that you made with model Lake and why you decided that you would make an album using no compression uh I like Dynamics and I always felt this a personal aesthetic choice that transients just sound so much better if they&#39;re non-compressed I remember this situation that when when I was a teenager I played at a band and as the engineer it was my job of course to take care of the mixing desk and DM and I had this small Roland tr55 drum computer and I took an incredible amount of satisfaction from just cranking the the amp to the Max and also the mixer to the Max and just hitting this one single bass drum and just feeling this impact of their silence and then there&#39;s this Bas from then adding some very lowlevel um drones from jun6 uh with a bit of RB below and the the first physicalness of that impact of there&#39;s this kind of panimo drone ambient background and then there&#39;s this space drum where the transient is really moving the membrane so you feel the transient physically I couldn&#39;t imagine the same impact if everything would be compressed to zero DB and then it would be just here&#39;s the pad here&#39;s the B drum here&#39;s the pad here&#39;s the B drum boring but there&#39;s the pad which is almost inaudible and then comes bang right there and then there&#39;s this p in the background I mean that&#39;s powerful so I I never felt the necessity for using compression the the interesting thing is that we are all so educated that there&#39;s a certain amount of guilts involved four or three times in my life I bought compressors and I bought like Hardware compressors nice big expensive Hardware compressors and I bought them because I felt I have to have them and I have to use them I sold them all right now there&#39;s only a few occasions where I use compression and where I find it really helpful I I have some physical modeling synthesizers that tend to have some um very unexpected uneven bursts of floud transients that I cannot really control that makes a lot of sense to compress those or where something happens on a very low level in the decay of the sound that I want have much louder so there using a compressor as a specific tool to to shape a sound or to tame some synthesis that is Meaningful but if I have any type of synthesis where I have control over the envelopes and where I can shape the evolution of the sound over time simply by the envelopes I can achieve much more interesting results by spending a bit of time with tweaking those parameters so yeah I I don&#39;t see a need for compression there and if I make a mix that sounds great without compression then it just sounds great without compression and at the end of course we need to adher to certain standards so if I do something that is supposed to work in a club in the in the mastering stage of course I add some multiband compression to to glue it all together and to reach the loudness level that I want to achieve but I&#39;m very happy that Spotify and all the others agreed on I think minus 14 loudness units and that&#39;s a type of density in a mix that I can agree on also so I I try to reach that that level on on compression when I do mixes so for clap mix that would be my my my goal to be around -4 maybe minus 12 but that&#39;s about it and for everything else that is in a more concert situation environment or listening environment then I&#39;m happy if the average is even lower at at the end of the day if everyone compresses everything then you can stand out by not compressing or you can stand out by compressing it in a different way or whatever it&#39;s just one of the aesthetic choices you have as as long as you as you stay aware of the fact that you have a choice here I think that&#39;s the main point and this is why I think sometimes all these online tutorials are a a two-sided thing you you can learn a lot from those you watch these tutorials and you think ah okay that&#39;s interesting I didn&#39;t consider that but you should probably my the best advice I could give to anyone who start to do whatever artistic practice is if you really want to learn what other people do understand that this is what other people do it&#39;s good if you if you get an idea what they are doing and why but it does not mean you should do the same yeah it&#39;s a creative decision exactly because in the Arts there is just no right or wrong and being unique and being yourself is much more important than sounding exactly like artist X who you admire I think there&#39;s always the pressure to be popular at the same time though with art in general and I think that&#39;s something again you have to navigate yourself it is very difficult and it doesn&#39;t get better uh if you are becoming more successful I believe because the more successful you get the more people you have who have expectations about what you deliver yeah um let&#39;s go back to the computers yes I&#39;ve not experienced this show but there&#39;s um via your Instagram feed lots of pictures and videos of I think it&#39;s about six or eight 1980s computers sitting on a stage what&#39;s happening there it&#39;s five it&#39;s only five which is already a painted transport uh they are commodora CBM at32 machines based on a CPU from 1976 clocking at 1 mahz and these computers have been built in 1980 I have a historical connection to them that is I learned programming on those machines at school back in the mid 80s and I came across one machine in early 2016 and I bought it on eBay and I started exploring it and realized I really like this extremely limited um Graphics I can do with them uh just some characters to 2,000 characters on a screen and there&#39;s some graphic symbols and it&#39;s all green croser on black and that&#39;s it at some point I figured out that if I&#39;m a bit Smart in my assembler programming skills I can create Graphics that are almost fast enough to count as video and I also learned that I can do some audio routines that are interesting uh those machines don&#39;t have a buil-in sound card uh but they were meant to be Open Designs so all the circuit diagrams are publicly available and I added a quite simple 8bit digital to analog converter board and started exploring what kind of digital synthesis I could do with those machines well long story short at some point I decided that this is serious and that I need five machines in total to get a a show on stage five machines because three of them doing sound one machine can only do one voice at a time so I have basically three voices uh one machine is doing video and one machine runs a step sequence application and I developed our own network protocol because this these machines don&#39;t have Medi or any standard Network connectors so it&#39;s just a 8bit parallel network uh interrupt drim for those who know and yeah we started programming so I can say that this project is is 100% and really 100% our own 8bit assembler code so there&#39;s no operating system running on those machines during the performance wow because all they do is running our code and the fascinating aspect of it was that I learned so much about music again you think having three voices is a limitation but every voice can be something like I have 2 50 notes or more 252 I think and some of these notes are percussion sounds like a bass drum sound a snare a high head a short PL uh other notes are Bas sounds um or melodic sounds or things like this and in order to create a drum pattern I can use one computer but then it means at the same measure there can only be either this one or the other sound so it&#39;s very similar to how backers work here&#39;s my bass drum here comes my snare Here Comes My High head uh I have to make a decision I have to make a decision which element comes when and then I have two computers left over so I could use one for a bass note so if one is playing the Baseline another one is playing the drum pattern then I have just one computer I left over for doing something else and the great experience to me was that this is sufficient and it&#39;s partly satisfying also because this rough bit sounds they have all these nice edges so they sound cool these days where everything is kind of tamed and nicely rounded people start to discover again the the niess of this old AG bit SS I mean the reason why let&#39;s say something like a PPG wave sounds great is not despite the fact that the wave tables are so small it is exactly because of that there is some grit there is some dirt in there and so this this whole coner concert is quite radical in a way it&#39;s one hour of a projection of green ass Keys like just green nothing else and there&#39;s these five computers on stage and it&#39;s a completely satisfying audio visual performance [Music] fantastic it sounds like you&#39;ve had lots of fun with that I definitely had lots of fun despite the fact that it was so much tedious work I learned from this on an artistic side like understanding that within these limitations there is so much possible and I learned on a very pragmatic technical side I didn&#39;t do uh print boards before so I I learned manufacturing electronic components basically on a level that is much higher than I had before which also means that if I have another project now coming up where I need Electronics I can either do it by myself or I&#39;m much better able to communicate with someone who does it uh because I did it once before so I I know what is possible I know I just know more stuff yeah I think if there&#39;s again one overlap between engineering and artistic practice is in order to be successful with what we&#39;re doing we have to learn new stuff and we have to embrace that it&#39;s not like oh God I need to learn that but it&#39;s okay cool I need to learn that I have the opportunity to learn it exactly it&#39;s an opportunity it&#39;s it&#39;s a gift it&#39;s a gift that I have I mean of course it depends on the tools there are some tools where the joy of learning them is debatable hopefully you&#39;ll see it with hindsight brilliant lovely well thank you so much Robert it&#39;s been really interesting to talk to you thank you very much and all the best with your continued adventures in art and Engineering thank you so much was a great pleasure talking with you hope people enjoyed thank you for listening and be sure to check out the show notes for further information as well as links and details of other episodes in the electronic music series and just before you go let me point you to soundon sound.com SLP podcast so you can check out what&#39;s on our other channels this has being a carc production for sound on sound [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause]

hello and welcome to the sound on sound podcast about electronic music and a things synth I&amp;#39;m Cari and in this episode we&amp;#39;re talking to Robert henker Robert is a berlin-based electronic music producer who&amp;#39;s been blurring the boundaries between club and listening music since the mid 1990s Robert&amp;#39;s also a visual artist working with lasers to create audio visual performances and installations on top of that Robert is an engineer a software developer and co-founder of music software company Ableton where he still plays an active role in the development [Music] department to get us started here&amp;#39;s a taster of Robert&amp;#39;s music under his monolake Monica produced using no compression which we&amp;#39;ll talk about in a bit [Music] [Music] hello Robert henker and welcome to the sound on sound podcast hello Carol um lovely to have you with us I&amp;#39;m really excited to unpack some of your work been aware of your work since I was a fledgling electronic music artist myself maybe let&amp;#39;s start with what you&amp;#39;re up to at the moment you&amp;#39;re working with lasers I believe yes for the last 78 month or so I&amp;#39;ve been working on a quite large project that now is as far as I&amp;#39;m concerned nearly finished I am actually scoring I&amp;#39;m I&amp;#39;m providing a visual score from music from someone else for me that&amp;#39;s quite a new experience because that&amp;#39;s not what I usually do but in this specific case I found the project interesting enough to agree and it&amp;#39;s also a great relev to honest to not have to think about the overall timing structure because the music is there and that means everything that has to do with overall shape and form is predefined and I can focus on entirely on my work without having the doubt about shouldn&amp;#39;t this part be longer or shorter or any of those structural decisions because they are made and they uh is a surprisingly um liberating experience yeah almost the limitations give you more freedom because it&amp;#39;s already there absolutely uh because the perception of time in music is such an interesting thing it&amp;#39;s so nonlinear which means that if something is perceived as too long then maybe because not enough is going on or too much is going on or the wrong combination of things are going on if I am in a situation that I can&amp;#39;t change the absolute duration of something then I can only work on the perceptual side of it so if something is boring in my opinion either sonically or visually instead of trying to change the length of it I try to change the the content until it matches Y and as you say you&amp;#39;re actually not working on the sound on music for this particular commission however I from your lumere show that I think I first experienced Ableton Loop or might have even been in Manchester actually it was the sound with the lasers and you were doing both can you tell us a little bit about how were they working together I&amp;#39;m guessing you using Ableton it&amp;#39;s all Ableton and Max for life and Max yes my goal at the beginning before I started this project was actually to do something that is radically different from what I perceived was the usual practice uh I wanted to have a very asynchronous syncopated relationship between visual events and Sonic events so my idea was there&amp;#39;s a basr and then as a response comes the visual percussive element and then comes the snare and then as response comes a visual element but I very quickly learned that this is not how our brain works because sound is slow and light is fast and if there is uh this two things if they are not perfectly in sync our brain either puts these things in sync again says no no that&amp;#39;s all good we still in Sy or it says it&amp;#39;s completely unrelated so this idea of audiovisual CounterPoint uh didn&amp;#39;t work out at all and I ended up doing what everyone else is doing having really tightly synchronized events which was very satisfying on a technical level the the most significant strategy I employed was that I created some sort of um let&amp;#39;s say meta note events what I mean with that is that I built in Mex for life synthesizes that basically can play a different sound for each node and that have lots of parameters I can control and I build on the visual side in Max uh structures that create visual elements and basically I tie to the same note a sound and a shape the connection between those two things is purely according to taste so it&amp;#39;s completely arbitrary there&amp;#39;s no technical connection I make a sound that sounds like a basum and I decide I want to have this this circle that changes size and color and um a few other aspects or I Define a high head and I have a different shape in mind and once I Define those shapes which go together then all I need to do is I create notes in live so and this note will just by its own nature create a visual and a Sonic structure at the same time and that proc made composing a very rewarding uh and fun thing to do I didn&amp;#39;t think anymore in oh I do the sound first or I do the lasers first it&amp;#39;s all one entity so I changed the pattern and the pattern defines how it sounds and how it looks and did you have to build your own software in order to make that connection between the laser and the sound or was it already out there if you know what I mean no no that&amp;#39;s that&amp;#39;s all my complete self-written stuff you could argue that it&amp;#39;s a bit stupid what I&amp;#39;m doing because there&amp;#39;s commercial tools out there but I am very much into detail and I have a strong idea about how specific things should sound and look like and especially also how they should react instead of trying to force an existing tool with lots of workarounds to do what I want I say okay what is the easiest thing I can build by myself that does the job so there is this notion of an LFO because lfos are really nice if you articulate them if you articulate the speed and the modulation depth and the same LFO is present in the synthesis engine for the sound and in the visual engine running on a completely different computer uh and I managed that those two things are exactly in sync which means I articulate the LFO and you hear this kind of wobble sound and see a perfectly synchronized structure in the visuals running on a different computer uh my nerd brain is really happy about that uh because it&amp;#39;s such a great technical achievement but even if you are not into the technicalities You observe this and especially if it&amp;#39;s performed life I strongly believe that it transmits uh that the fact that I can control all these gestures in real time that I can respond to the moment and that this changes the sound and changes the lasers in a very meaningful way together there is some power in [Music] [Music] it of course you you are able to do all the the building your own software where bits because you&amp;#39;ve been involved with Ableton from the beginning really so maybe you could tell us a bit about how Ableton came about really and your your part in the development of that uh well it&amp;#39;s a long story is which is not a surprise I guess uh the the the core is that I kind of ran away from Munich where I was born as soon as I could because it was conservative and boring I moved to Berlin studied computer science and I met a person again who I knew from Munich and who also just arrived in building we became very close friends and we started making music together and in order to do what we wanted to do we wrote our own little pieces of software and later that person decided to basically found its own or their own company ablon and he asked me to join and that&amp;#39;s what I did at the beginning we just thought that our concept of a more performance focused sequencing system would be interested for a small group of people so we we were quite confident that a very very small company could survive based on the customers in our electronic music bubble and and then things just very quickly started to became much bigger than we did anticipate so that&amp;#39;s the the short story and I have been responsible for a lot of the decisions at the beginning I wrote a lot of the early effects and the one thing I&amp;#39;m most proud of is operator that&amp;#39;s pretty much my baby and it was never intended to be a big synthesizer it was just my take on building a small yet playful FM engine I moved myself out of the company at some point maybe 10 years ago to focus entirely on my art but I came back a few years ago also because I felt that I am too much mentally involved in it to let go and I felt it&amp;#39;s important that I stay there and shape the future of it and and so I&amp;#39;m trying to find this balance between being an artist and being a software guy yeah and as you say yourself you know we&amp;#39;ve talked about that thing that quite often there&amp;#39;s so much overlap or doesn&amp;#39;t have to be a separation between being an artist and engineer as much as you have to balance that I think and more and more I&amp;#39;m realizing in order to be you know deep in your art or to take it seriously you have to understand the science of it I I think there is some something going fundamentally wrong in our society and also very much I believe in education uh since a long long time that we we tell people that there is a separation between engineering and art yeah you&amp;#39;re either one or the other you are either one or the other and this kind of there&amp;#39;s there&amp;#39;s these two completely inappropriate cliches out there um the one cliche is that the engineer this is this kind of person in the gray suit in the lab who is doing something really really complex that you need to be a math geek and at the end what comes out is a nuclear power plant and on the other side orders hundreds of thousands of Engineers developing something together and on the other side you have the genius artist who sits in their atellier beauti full sunlight coming in both things are completely completely wrong every engineering I admire is the result of intuition is the result of aesthetic judgment there is so much Beauty in engineering and so much a need for an artistic mindset if you have no inspiration you&amp;#39;re a lousy engineer because you Tred to solve a problem in an elegant way uh and you try to find new ways to approach things and you try to invent I remember you saying you&amp;#39;re also trying to actually answer the questions the problems that the user is having for them because they think they want this and that but actually you&amp;#39;re having to understand what is it that they really need what is it that&amp;#39;s missing oh absolutely I mean if that&amp;#39;s the classical issue with software development users just request features and the users usually think they have the right answer for what they want based on how it works somewhere else and if you would just follow that and just add another element in the UI another button another function another pull down menu whatever you end up with a product that on paper does everything you want but practically becomes no fun to use anymore and you stick with Concepts that are old and if you instead think a step further try to think okay what is the real workflow that these people have and what what blocks them with their work then the solution is maybe not a technical solution but the solution is something very very different I don&amp;#39;t have a good example in my head right now but in general the idea is understanding what people want to achieve on a on a level that has nothing to do with technology I think that&amp;#39;s the key so you know just the the classical Apple iPhone success story okay people want to browse the web people want to make phone calls and people want to take pictures do people want to take around three different units um probably no if they could have it in one unit did typing on a keyboard turn out to be the most elegant thing to do can you combine a camera and a keyboard can you combine all these functions in one device and if you want to do this perhaps maybe let&amp;#39;s get rid of the keyboard and use a touchcreen for everything that type of thinking that says okay we cannot just build this one thing by adding new things on top we also have to get rid of things or we need to rethink stuff yeah and there&amp;#39;s so much imagination in there as well I think especially with tech music tech techology um it&amp;#39;s it&amp;#39;s kind of about getting the tools the technology out of the way in a sense isn&amp;#39;t it as much as possible so you can just be because music is about Humanity it&amp;#39;s about physicality so it&amp;#39;s you know able to more than anything has helped to bring that back obviously with all the media compatibility and all the other ways you can control I I think Simplicity is a is a very important value probably very difficult to achieve oh absolutely because having something that is simple yet expressive requires a lot of intuition smartness experience I mean if you think about the the the tr808 there&amp;#39;s so little things that you can do with those sounds but the sound synthesis in itself in all its strip dness is so much to the point that there&amp;#39;s not much to improve there and the thing became iconic not despite the limitations but it became iconic because it is exactly what it is and to me this is a a great example for a design where the reduction created all these fantastic things that people have been doing with that thing yeah and do you know why or how it came about the Ableton came up with the clip Arrangement as well as the standard linear um Arrangements Windows because that&amp;#39;s to me felt really really different when that that was the main thing about Ableton when I first encountered it I think that&amp;#39;s we can we can say that we invented that the reason why we invented it was a mix of necessity and desire so the fact that this was audio Loops was simply due to the situation that laptops were slow so the idea to have eight tracks with effects and synthesis uh forget about it to have eight simple granular Time Stretch playback units for audio clips that was Within Reach so that&amp;#39;s what we did the original idea for that came really out of our own music making practice we wanted something that does not require recording I mean both gard and me don&amp;#39;t have a formal musical education and the thing we liked and still do like a lot electronic music is the fact that you can control a system and that system does the the task actually planning so the beauty of a drum computer is that you can program something and whilst you program it it runs and our tools and the stuff we wrote for ourself were always some sorts of depth sequencers and drum machines and what we did is we were just jamming with those tools in the studio and we&amp;#39;re recording the result to that and afterwards spent long tedious hours editing those endless sessions into meaningful context and the one experience we made very often is that there was always this one sound or this one element that was too much and there was no way to get this out of the recording or had the wrong tuning or whatever just these things that at the end turn out to ruin your your session one of the ideas of the first version of life was okay there&amp;#39;s the session view where you can jam with your material and can try out combinations and create something new in a flow and whilst doing so you hit this record button for the arrangement and magically you get a protocol of everything you did and afterwards you have the Liberty to say okay it&amp;#39;s all good but this part needs to change that part need to change but the the conceptual idea was really that the the beginning of the creation is dis playfulness in interaction with the machine that does not require playing an instrument in order to get something on tape for us the idea of Performing was a mode of expression not so much a distinction between okay that&amp;#39;s stage SL Studio I mean most of our users are not using live on stage but in their home Studios and from the very beginning we thought this idea of playing as a way of creating is what we aim for and playing for us non-m musicians basically was having a system that does some sound Creations some structure creation by itself and you&amp;#39;re conducting how this creation works I think there&amp;#39;s still obviously lots more that needs to be done especially I think accessibility in terms of visual impairment but how do you feel it&amp;#39;s kind of hopefully helped or contributed Ed to a bit more inclusivity a bit more accessibility a bit more diversity within who&amp;#39;s making electronic music from when you kind of started out let&amp;#39;s say it&amp;#39;s a bit ironic that of course we have been blamed for some sort of um mainstreaming unification of electronic music uh so oh yeah everything sounds the same because all made and abl so there is some voices that say we be reduced diversity at least in style and output which is of course you know to a certain extent true every tool that simplifies a process also suggests a certain outcome workflow as the easiest way to do it on the other hand this is by far outweight by the fact that we as you said enable people to express themselves musically that are not formally trained that don&amp;#39;t consider themselves musician in the first place so this idea that hey there&amp;#39;s this tool with which you can just fool around and have fun and then you do this and you figure out actually that fun is so significant to me that I like to dive deeper I mean this is how usually careers start you you you you start because you enjoy what you do and at some point you see see a path of turning this into a profession to a certain extent yeah and this whole process of enabling people is is something that is very uh dear to us yeah I think I can speak for the company as such that this is something which is at the core of what we like to achieve is that we enable people to do things and that we try to not suggest a a existing practice but Empower people to say hey extend what you do try what you like to do there&amp;#39;s nothing you can&amp;#39;t break anything it&amp;#39;s software just do whatever you like to do with it and do it in whatever context there&amp;#39;s also always the discussion there about how much does the structure of that software favor certain types of musical expression uh and makes it harder to find other types of expression and these are discussions are quite valuable with the release of live 11 I think or a little bit later we released this ma for Life micro tuning device which kind of stirred some discussion about what is the appropriate dealing with different tunings and that discussion had some interesting aspects to it we kind of were accused a little bit of doing it all wrong but my conclusion at the end of this discussion is that by offering a Max for Life device that does not tell users here is the right practice but just say Okay tuning means here&amp;#39;s your notes here&amp;#39;s some tuning values change it this is pretty much the the most open way to to deal with tuning in my opinion because you can import your own files so if you are into a specific uh nonwestern musical practice no one is keeping you from doing it but if you say well I like everything to be normal but the F needs to be 15 cent up because I like it like that then go for it if we can manage that we create tools that have this openness then I believe we have a good chance to enable people to create their own vision and in this context I believe the integration of Max in life is quite essential I I can clearly say that none of my works like really none would work without some part of Max my laser control that relies on Max for Life devices my performances rely on Max for Life devices for the seemingly boring but highly important task to generate more complex Medi mappings so that I have visual feedback on my medi controllers that I design by myself I have complex mappings where several parameters influence one Target and the other way around so max does not doing something that seems to be super exciting but it&amp;#39;s very fundamental for the freedom of expression I have so the the fact that it allows people to extend something that might feel a bit Limited in itself into whatever Madness you want to extend it to I think that is not only a a technicality but this is also a mental proposal saying actually we not only accept that you do weird things but we deliberately encouraging you to do it it&amp;#39;s a challenging one to be honest uh both for for a company who has to deliver certain standards to be accepted in a competitive landscape but also for not where uh there&amp;#39;s always of course the the Quest for Unique expression but at the same time there is standards yeah I mean so so much discussions happening about how to tune your Bas drums right how to master correctly how to do honestly I think we had a very luxurous situation in the early 90s mhm that there was no canonical practice which means everyone did what they found was appropriate and the result was sometimes going in questionable directions but more often the result was truly unique discoveries yeah which is what a lot of the Pioneers you know the sisters with transistors film covers from suzan chani through to Lori spegel through to all these women saying that it wasn&amp;#39;t defined it wasn&amp;#39;t defined there for it was especially welcoming for those women because they didn&amp;#39;t have um mainly um other people telling them what they should sound like or what they should do and I felt that myself when I started out I was in a room on my own so no one could tell me what I should do and shouldn&amp;#39;t do which was yeah how I how I defined my sound absolutely I mean we I can only say from from early monol days we did everything wrong and if if I listen to this old stuff now then I&amp;#39;m scratching my head and think I should do more things wrong again yeah I mean I remember interviewing you when I was at Sound Engineering School actually here in Manchester and um I was really quite Enchanted by the fact that you&amp;#39;d produced silence um your mon Lake album with using no compression was what I heard so therefore I had to find out more from you because at the time I was being told about well on every signal chain or most signal chains you&amp;#39;ll put EQ then you&amp;#39;ll put compression and then on the masterbus you&amp;#39;ll do this and it was so refreshing to hear from you why and how you&amp;#39;ve done that I I I think there&amp;#39;s two problems of our uh time the one problem is the internet and the other problem is the abundance of tools the internet makes it really hard to find peace in your own mind without being exposed to everything else if if you start with any artistic practice and your social media stream is full of photos sound bites whatever of all the other people worldwide doing similar stuff why do you even bother to start there&amp;#39;s always someone who did exactly the same that you wanted to do but much better already that seems to be quite disencouraging and the other thing is that you can spend probably your whole life being afraid of not having the right basr sound if there&amp;#39;s no internet and you have this drum computer that you found for cheap on a secondhand jop well then you don&amp;#39;t worry about your P drum sound or maybe you figure out that if you raise the gain of your mixer and it distorts that this is more how you want it but that&amp;#39;s it so instead of being concerned for a long time about the right sound you say okay that&amp;#39;s my basr and you figure out how to actually create your groove in a meaningful way I have a tendency these days to enjoy working with limitations a lot because the limitations guide me in this regard the the project from which I learned most was the the thing with these old computers that I started now almost six years ago wow time flies yes I wanted to ask you about them but first I want to hear about the silence album that you made with model Lake and why you decided that you would make an album using no compression uh I like Dynamics and I always felt this a personal aesthetic choice that transients just sound so much better if they&amp;#39;re non-compressed I remember this situation that when when I was a teenager I played at a band and as the engineer it was my job of course to take care of the mixing desk and DM and I had this small Roland tr55 drum computer and I took an incredible amount of satisfaction from just cranking the the amp to the Max and also the mixer to the Max and just hitting this one single bass drum and just feeling this impact of their silence and then there&amp;#39;s this Bas from then adding some very lowlevel um drones from jun6 uh with a bit of RB below and the the first physicalness of that impact of there&amp;#39;s this kind of panimo drone ambient background and then there&amp;#39;s this space drum where the transient is really moving the membrane so you feel the transient physically I couldn&amp;#39;t imagine the same impact if everything would be compressed to zero DB and then it would be just here&amp;#39;s the pad here&amp;#39;s the B drum here&amp;#39;s the pad here&amp;#39;s the B drum boring but there&amp;#39;s the pad which is almost inaudible and then comes bang right there and then there&amp;#39;s this p in the background I mean that&amp;#39;s powerful so I I never felt the necessity for using compression the the interesting thing is that we are all so educated that there&amp;#39;s a certain amount of guilts involved four or three times in my life I bought compressors and I bought like Hardware compressors nice big expensive Hardware compressors and I bought them because I felt I have to have them and I have to use them I sold them all right now there&amp;#39;s only a few occasions where I use compression and where I find it really helpful I I have some physical modeling synthesizers that tend to have some um very unexpected uneven bursts of floud transients that I cannot really control that makes a lot of sense to compress those or where something happens on a very low level in the decay of the sound that I want have much louder so there using a compressor as a specific tool to to shape a sound or to tame some synthesis that is Meaningful but if I have any type of synthesis where I have control over the envelopes and where I can shape the evolution of the sound over time simply by the envelopes I can achieve much more interesting results by spending a bit of time with tweaking those parameters so yeah I I don&amp;#39;t see a need for compression there and if I make a mix that sounds great without compression then it just sounds great without compression and at the end of course we need to adher to certain standards so if I do something that is supposed to work in a club in the in the mastering stage of course I add some multiband compression to to glue it all together and to reach the loudness level that I want to achieve but I&amp;#39;m very happy that Spotify and all the others agreed on I think minus 14 loudness units and that&amp;#39;s a type of density in a mix that I can agree on also so I I try to reach that that level on on compression when I do mixes so for clap mix that would be my my my goal to be around -4 maybe minus 12 but that&amp;#39;s about it and for everything else that is in a more concert situation environment or listening environment then I&amp;#39;m happy if the average is even lower at at the end of the day if everyone compresses everything then you can stand out by not compressing or you can stand out by compressing it in a different way or whatever it&amp;#39;s just one of the aesthetic choices you have as as long as you as you stay aware of the fact that you have a choice here I think that&amp;#39;s the main point and this is why I think sometimes all these online tutorials are a a two-sided thing you you can learn a lot from those you watch these tutorials and you think ah okay that&amp;#39;s interesting I didn&amp;#39;t consider that but you should probably my the best advice I could give to anyone who start to do whatever artistic practice is if you really want to learn what other people do understand that this is what other people do it&amp;#39;s good if you if you get an idea what they are doing and why but it does not mean you should do the same yeah it&amp;#39;s a creative decision exactly because in the Arts there is just no right or wrong and being unique and being yourself is much more important than sounding exactly like artist X who you admire I think there&amp;#39;s always the pressure to be popular at the same time though with art in general and I think that&amp;#39;s something again you have to navigate yourself it is very difficult and it doesn&amp;#39;t get better uh if you are becoming more successful I believe because the more successful you get the more people you have who have expectations about what you deliver yeah um let&amp;#39;s go back to the computers yes I&amp;#39;ve not experienced this show but there&amp;#39;s um via your Instagram feed lots of pictures and videos of I think it&amp;#39;s about six or eight 1980s computers sitting on a stage what&amp;#39;s happening there it&amp;#39;s five it&amp;#39;s only five which is already a painted transport uh they are commodora CBM at32 machines based on a CPU from 1976 clocking at 1 mahz and these computers have been built in 1980 I have a historical connection to them that is I learned programming on those machines at school back in the mid 80s and I came across one machine in early 2016 and I bought it on eBay and I started exploring it and realized I really like this extremely limited um Graphics I can do with them uh just some characters to 2,000 characters on a screen and there&amp;#39;s some graphic symbols and it&amp;#39;s all green croser on black and that&amp;#39;s it at some point I figured out that if I&amp;#39;m a bit Smart in my assembler programming skills I can create Graphics that are almost fast enough to count as video and I also learned that I can do some audio routines that are interesting uh those machines don&amp;#39;t have a buil-in sound card uh but they were meant to be Open Designs so all the circuit diagrams are publicly available and I added a quite simple 8bit digital to analog converter board and started exploring what kind of digital synthesis I could do with those machines well long story short at some point I decided that this is serious and that I need five machines in total to get a a show on stage five machines because three of them doing sound one machine can only do one voice at a time so I have basically three voices uh one machine is doing video and one machine runs a step sequence application and I developed our own network protocol because this these machines don&amp;#39;t have Medi or any standard Network connectors so it&amp;#39;s just a 8bit parallel network uh interrupt drim for those who know and yeah we started programming so I can say that this project is is 100% and really 100% our own 8bit assembler code so there&amp;#39;s no operating system running on those machines during the performance wow because all they do is running our code and the fascinating aspect of it was that I learned so much about music again you think having three voices is a limitation but every voice can be something like I have 2 50 notes or more 252 I think and some of these notes are percussion sounds like a bass drum sound a snare a high head a short PL uh other notes are Bas sounds um or melodic sounds or things like this and in order to create a drum pattern I can use one computer but then it means at the same measure there can only be either this one or the other sound so it&amp;#39;s very similar to how backers work here&amp;#39;s my bass drum here comes my snare Here Comes My High head uh I have to make a decision I have to make a decision which element comes when and then I have two computers left over so I could use one for a bass note so if one is playing the Baseline another one is playing the drum pattern then I have just one computer I left over for doing something else and the great experience to me was that this is sufficient and it&amp;#39;s partly satisfying also because this rough bit sounds they have all these nice edges so they sound cool these days where everything is kind of tamed and nicely rounded people start to discover again the the niess of this old AG bit SS I mean the reason why let&amp;#39;s say something like a PPG wave sounds great is not despite the fact that the wave tables are so small it is exactly because of that there is some grit there is some dirt in there and so this this whole coner concert is quite radical in a way it&amp;#39;s one hour of a projection of green ass Keys like just green nothing else and there&amp;#39;s these five computers on stage and it&amp;#39;s a completely satisfying audio visual performance [Music] fantastic it sounds like you&amp;#39;ve had lots of fun with that I definitely had lots of fun despite the fact that it was so much tedious work I learned from this on an artistic side like understanding that within these limitations there is so much possible and I learned on a very pragmatic technical side I didn&amp;#39;t do uh print boards before so I I learned manufacturing electronic components basically on a level that is much higher than I had before which also means that if I have another project now coming up where I need Electronics I can either do it by myself or I&amp;#39;m much better able to communicate with someone who does it uh because I did it once before so I I know what is possible I know I just know more stuff yeah I think if there&amp;#39;s again one overlap between engineering and artistic practice is in order to be successful with what we&amp;#39;re doing we have to learn new stuff and we have to embrace that it&amp;#39;s not like oh God I need to learn that but it&amp;#39;s okay cool I need to learn that I have the opportunity to learn it exactly it&amp;#39;s an opportunity it&amp;#39;s it&amp;#39;s a gift it&amp;#39;s a gift that I have I mean of course it depends on the tools there are some tools where the joy of learning them is debatable hopefully you&amp;#39;ll see it with hindsight brilliant lovely well thank you so much Robert it&amp;#39;s been really interesting to talk to you thank you very much and all the best with your continued adventures in art and Engineering thank you so much was a great pleasure talking with you hope people enjoyed thank you for listening and be sure to check out the show notes for further information as well as links and details of other episodes in the electronic music series and just before you go let me point you to soundon sound.com SLP podcast so you can check out what&amp;#39;s on our other channels this has being a carc production for sound on sound [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause]

Transcript for:Sound on Sound Podcast with Robert Henke

Transcript for:
Sound on Sound Podcast with Robert Henke