The scalp of the skin basically has a similar structure of the skin in your face. So your hair follicules are basically embedded in the epidermal layer. And so a lot of the things that we see happening in the skin of our face also happens in our scalp. You don't notice it at first. A few strands here, a little thinning there, and then one day it's gone. Before you get wrinkled, before you start feeling tired, your hair starts whispering. You're aging. Is it hormones? genetics or just a story that we've been told because no one looked deeper. Hair loss feels inevitable. But what if one undiscovered molecule built in a longevity lab could flip the switch? Dr. Karolina Grace Oliviera isn't from the beauty world. She's actually a stem cell biologist with a PhD in immunology. She left Brazil for Silicon Valley to do something radical. Turn aging into a problem science could solve. She started by developing the first molecule proven to reverse skin's biological age. Now she's turning that same science toward your hair. And what she's uncovered changes everything. I got to understand how much the science of aging has evolved in the past 10, 15 years. Zombie cells, overlooked microbiomes, a new class of peptides that can restart hair growth. No drugs, no side effects, no guesswork. In a six-month clinical trial, 86% of users saw an average of 40% more hair density, thicker strands, revived follicles, youthful growth re-engineered from the root. This is a major breakthrough in one of the hardest things to change in aging. And it starts where most people stop looking, your scalp. This isn't about vanity. This is about control over your biology. Because aging shows up where you hope it never will. But now one product, one peptide, one shot at reversing what everyone else accepts. If people don't get enough protein or they suppress their metabolism and become metabolically less healthy as a result of using GLP1 drugs at high doses, they are going to see thinning and less healthy hair. But how does a person know if it's DHT or mitochondrial dysfunction or lack of circulation or bad bacteria? How do you know what's causing hair loss? You don't just lose your hair, you can lose confidence, you can lose vitality, you can lose your edge. This is your chance to get it back starting at the root. You're listening to the human upgrade with Dave Asprey. All right, first question. Is aging optional for your scalp? That's that's a great question. Um in many ways aging is reversible for our scalp as it is reversible for the rest of our body. Uh some conditions that affect our scalp and hair are highly genetic driven but some can be preventable, some can be reversible. And so I think what we are realizing as we have done for the skin is that the same way that we treat our skin to prevent wrinkles and to prevent you know all the signs of aging uh we should also treat our scalp to prevent you know potential hair thinning hair loss and it is possible to reverse uh some of those conditions in many cases. Um, so short answer, yes. I've been a big fan of the research you've done with One Skan about the OS1 peptide and just showing clinically what it does to the skin. And I've often wondered, should I smear some of the stuff on my scalp? Is the skin on the scalp different from your normal skin? Does it need different signals or different peptides in order to keep your hair? Uh so the scalp of the skin is basically has a similar structure of the of the skin in your face. So uh your hair follicles are basically embedded in the epidermal layer. And so a lot of the things that we see happening in the skin of our face also happens in our scalp. So same way that we accumulate you know damage and and those you know scinesscent cells zombie cells in our skin they also accumulate in in the scalp in the epidermal layer in the layer that's uh surrounding the hair follicules and they also have a very important role in driving um hair loss or hair thinning because they're secretreting inflammatory signals. they are basically impairing the whole hair cycle which is very important for us to make sure that the hair is growing um you know normally if we don't disrupt the hair cycle. So that means the things that would work on my normal skin would also likely work on my scalp but most of them are pretty oily and if I tried to put facial serum on my hair it's just going to be a big mess. What do I do about that? Yeah. So, you need a different delivery system. So, you need something that uh is suitable for you to use every day that's not going to cause, you know, uh your hair to feel greasy and can absorb well into your scalp. Also, the hair follicles, they have some different needs than your skin because obviously there is a need for protein to produce, you know, the keratene of the hair. But in general some of the aging factors that affect your skin also affects your hair. But now we are developing you know a new solution that can deliver peptides to your scalp and prevent the hair uh the scinesscent cells in in hair follicules and and we've seen that several conditions that are associated with hair thinning are also associated with associated with the presence of you know scinesscent cells and so that's what we're researching now. Is it scesscent cells that cause people to lose their hair or get thin hair uh in some conditions? So there are different types of hair loss. Uh the most common is called like the male um pattern baldness and that's mainly driven by genetics. So it's a condition that testosterone is converted in DHT or dihydrotestosterone and the DHT basically induces like hair follicle shrinking. So that condition uh scinesscent cells is also a contributor to exacerbate hair loss for those who uh are experienced um uh this condition. Uh other conditions like age related hair thinning that's mainly affect people over 50s um that's associated with aging. Uh this is correlated with hair with scessence. So this scinessence is one of the main drivers of age related hair thinning and other conditions like stress associated hair loss. It's also associated with the presence of scinesscent cells. So one of the experiments that we've done in the lab was basically to induce uh to show that this hormone CR can induce stress related hormone can induce scinessence and we showed that we could reverse the scinessence induced with the peptide. So because we know that stress is associated with a lot of you know in many situations hair loss we could uh reverse the the scinesscent cells uh associated with stress and and therefore uh help your hair to go back to the growth cycle faster. Also I forgot to mention there are like several conditions that are associated with you know hormone uh imbalance. So for uh women for example uh postpartum when you have a significant drop in estrogen or menopause this is usually associated with a higher conversion of again testosterone to to DHT. So for women for example when you're pregnant estrogen keep your hair in the growth phase that we call like anogen and your hair you know it's be beautiful it's full uh it's fuller and as that estrogen drops then a lot of the hair will enter in this phase that we call telogen that basically like the uh the hair uh disconnects from the hair follicle and falls out and so there is a significant shift from this anogen that's like the growth phase to the telogen that's the the phase that the hair is shedding and that's why women experience a lot of like hair loss during postpartum and also during menopause. So menopause what we also see is that there's a drop in estrogen. There's a drop in progesterone and progesterone is also really helpful on preventing testosterone to be converted into DHT. But when you don't have testosterone, you are going to see more of production of DHT. DHT basically induces that hair follicle shrinking that's related to hair loss. Is it estrogen that makes women not lose their hair? Yeah, estrogen basically keeps women in uh keeps the hair in the anogen phase. Energ is the growth phase of the hair follicle. So, usually the hair follicle goes through this cycle that's uh it can last like between 2 and 7 years. Enigen phase lasts 2 to 7 years and is the growth phase. And then there is the transition phase that's called kadagen. And then there is the you know uh the fallout phase that's called the telogen and that can last like a few months. So basically the majority of our hair should be in anogen 80 to 85% should be on anogen and about 5 to 15% on telogen. And so women when they have high level of estrogen this supports the anogen phase. So they keep their hair in this growth phase for longer and that helps with you know uh hair density um um hair you know thickness and overall hair health. Is there a case for lowd dose estrogen for guys just topically on their hair as long as it doesn't absorb systemically? That's a great question. I have not uh uh because I don't know if guys have the same uh receptors for estrogen in terms of volume and you know number or or presence that women have. So I think for guys the most common treatment is to prevent the conversion of testosterone into DHT. Uh and that's mainly you know done by the drugs like finasteride and dutasteride. Um, but um I I'll take a look if there would be a case for low levels of estrogen if that would also work in in guys. And just to be clear, I'm not talking guys about taking estrogen, that's not going to end well. But if you can have just a local effect from it, I mean, there's a reason that women or pregnant women have glowy hair. Uh, as long as it doesn't go everywhere. I I have seen some topical skinincare preparations that are prescription that have lowd dose estradiol uh even for men and lab studies that say it doesn't absorb because it's such a tiny amount like it doesn't go in systemically and raise labs at all. So I'm wondering like maybe that's a part of it that would at least be a hair thickness hack but not a hair loss hack, right? Um I mean it could be a potential hair loss hack. Uh but again we would needed to know if the hair follicles in men have the same receptors for estrogen as we have in women. Should men and women who are looking for thicker hair, do they need fundamentally different products to do that? I think they could potentially use the same products. uh men uh women that are in still in the reproductive phase, you know, they're trying to get pregnant, they should not use finasteride, dutasteride because they can have some, you know, um implications on fertility. So if you have gone through, you know, all of your reproductive phase, you would be okay. These drugs also has some associated side effects. We know that mainly for men like finasteride it's related with potential uh erectile dysfunction and other side effects and and so all of these drugs they you know they have results but also they have some considerable side effects. You're a little bit calm about that. Being probably permanently chemically neutered because of a hair loss drug seems like a really poor risk. I'd rather be bald and have libido than have nice hair, but no libido to even take advantage of my nice hair. Um, and I I'm speaking from experience here. When I did a procedure to move 10,000 hair follicles from the sides to the front of my hair, there's a whole podcast about that. Um, I tried a relative of finasteride for about 3 or 4 weeks and at the end of that I'm like, where did my I think the morning kickstand is the right way to put it. Like it totally I was like this is scary. It took me a while to figure out that it was just topical application of this. So I stopped it and it took probably 9 months before things returned to normal. And that was after very brief usage. If I'd have taken a pill for 6 months, I might be like permanently not in a happy place. So there must be peptide ways, there must be scinesscent cell ways, which is what you're focusing on. That's why I wanted to interview you today. What are you doing with peptides on the scalp? Yeah. So basically, we have, you know, researched this novel peptide called OS1 for years. And the interesting thing about OS1 is that it has it this mechanism of increasing DNA repair capacity uh decreasing inflammatory signal secretion and therefore basically it shuts off scesscent cells but also prevents the formation of new scinesscent cells. And so as we were exploring this peptide for skin for so many years and we were seeing a lot of other studies showing the uh implication of scinesscent cells in hair follicules or in hair growth, we were you know curious if our peptide would also work to prevent or you know reverse hair thinning, prevent hair loss in some instances and and so as I said one of the models that we could replicate that's related to hair loss. It's a stress induced hair loss. We we showed in the lab in hair follicule cells that by stimulating the cells with a stress related hormone we induce scinesscent cells and always one can reverse that profile. And so in conditions as age related hair thinning and also stress related uh hair loss and also even you know in the most common you know maleop pattern baldness uh there is an influence of scinesscent cells and so we went on we formulated this uh peptide into a topical solution. uh we did the studies in hair follicules in the lab. We could see that we were you know stimulating the hair growth uh and then we did the clinical studies for 6 months and we measured several parameters related to hair density, hair thickness, um the number of hair follicles that are on the anogen phase and we saw really incredible results with OS1. And so after 6 months we saw over 80% 86% of the participants increasing uh on average 40% on hair density. We also saw uh over 80% uh increasing on average of 42% hair thickness and we saw over 70% of participants increasing uh the hair in the anogen phase by um 40% as well uh or 37% close to 40. And so these were or uh these were very impressive numbers and also shows that people that are still in the very early stage of hair thinning that you may not even notice you're still like on your 30s, you can already see an improvement in hair density. uh if we start using a product like this and it's going to work again to make your hair like fuller but also to prevent you know potential hair thinning that's going to come with aging. So at least like you know more than 50% of men and women experience hair loss or hair thinning throughout their lifetimes. In men actually this number it's uh I think it's close to 70 or 80%. Why do some people have thick full hair when they're 70 and others don't? The one of the main reasons it can be this uh sensitivity to DHT which is mainly u genetic uh driven and so some people that are high uh sensitive to DHT they will experience more uh significantly hair loss and some people are less sensitive. Also there is a lot of you know lifestyle and uh your diet stress your your your microbiome that influences how thick or how healthy your hair is. But uh for men I would say the the major factor is still genetic driven. So probably genetic. If you could look at all the things you've done with tissue engineering and peptides and cell biology and just put on your 10 years in the future hat, what are we going to be doing about hair loss? I think we needed to find uh I I I think hair loss similar to aging is a is a process that has like multiacets, right? So there is not like only one way that you're going to target. we're going to target with like many interventions and so I would say you know trying to prevent the conversion of testosterone to DHT is one and finding you know molecules that are more specific and has less side effects is one of them. I think increasing you know blood circulation as you know you can do today with like ro gain or minoxidil uh it also has some side effects but again how we can increase that increase that blood circulation you know with ingredients or or or products that are you know more safe to your scalp I think it's another very important uh way to to prevent or or uh avoid hair loss uh scinesscent cells has an important role as you were talking about. Um we are seeing that uh low levels of light therapy it's also has shown to to help with you know the cellular health of the hair follicules and maintain again the dermal pepa that's like the cells around the hair follicle really healthy and secretreting the right factors to induce promote the hair growth and maybe there will be if if it's very genetic driven maybe there will be a a generic therapy that we can also you know, develop to uh to combat like the the the results of people that are more genetic predisposed to the sensitivity to DHT. That makes a lot of sense. I'm I'm hoping that we have stem cell abilities to just plant follicles wherever we want and that we can just, you know, grow I I could say I want my initials growing on my forehead and here and we just like hit it with a laser or something. Is that ever going to happen? just be able to turn on follicles like that. Um I would say what's probably more maybe easier would be to reproduce a hair follicle in the lab and implant it on yourself. you you can already you know kind of do the transplant that you did but I think to induce the same micro environment with the stem cells uh and all the you know growth factors in your scalp um seems challenging but um we have 10 years we have AI we have all the stuff you're doing I mean on that you you've already tested 600 different peptides and compounds to see what causes skin regener generation and that's how you came up with OS1 the peptide and I like it in fact we as we talked about this on one of the previous episodes where you were on saying you know how are we going to use this on the hair can I use it on my hair and so you developed a different carrier so that I can deal with scinesscent cells and all and I'm excited to to be working with it how long is it going to take for me to see results in my hair versus in my skin yeah so hair usually takes longer uh we the clinical study that We ran uh we measured uh 3 months and 6 months. We already see some significant improvement at 3 months, but all of the parameters improve after 6 months and they get uh more more significant in terms of the improvement. And so we usually recommend 6 months of treatment treatment to to see um the the best results. How many times a day do I have to use one skin on my hair in order to get results likely similar to what you saw in your clinical results? Yeah, from our clinical results was twice a day uh and once a day using a derma roller. We recommend at least once a day. And so if you can use twice even better, but we know that uh it's it may not be so convenient for everyone. Uh the the product doesn't as I said doesn't leave your hair greasy. So you can you know blow dry your hair after you apply or you can style in any way that you want. Um but uh yeah so at least once a day. What percentage change in hair thickness or hair density did you find when people used OS1 on their scalps? Yeah so for hair density we saw on average an increase of 40%. 40%. 40%. That's kind of a big deal. Okay. 6 months smearing some stuff on my head twice a day. That's insane. Yeah. In over like 86% of the participants. And this is men and women. Men and women. Yeah. For men. Interesting. We only had seven men in the group, but six out of 10 or six out of seven uh showed an increase of like 35%. And so more men uh showed an an improvement and and and 100% showed an improvement in hair density by uh hair thickness by 37%. 37% hair thickness and 40% hair and 40 uh 40% hair density overall combining men and women. And when it's only men, it's 35%. Those numbers are insane. Are you worried about like the ro gain or minoxidil or finasteride people taking out a hit on you? Uh I don't think so. I think the mechanism the mechanism is very different and and actually you can combine them if you want. That was my next question. So, if I can get a 40% improvement in my hair with one skin, if I also use topical minoxidil, which I I do use along with caffeine and some other stuff, there's no reason I couldn't mix them. Yeah. No reason. Yeah. Our product is completely safe and there is no um you know cross reaction with any other ingredients and and I could also use red light therapy on my head at the same time like the upgrade lab stuff. So, if I do all this stuff and I end up with those changes in my hair, and I'll show this to you guys. Um, you'll see this over the next six months, and I start looking like a 25-year-old Tik Tok influencer. Are people going to make fun of me? Now, I think you're going to look great, even better. Um, okay. Uh, I've worked at I have $5,000 lasers. Uh, I have done the full hair transplant where I moved 10,000 follicles. Um, and these these things are are profoundly big numbers that you're talking about with one skin. So, I'm interested in stacking all together. What happened with me is with all the longevity things I do, I did not lose my hair. And all the guys in my family were bald by 25 on both my mom's side, my dad's side. So, I'm like, "All right, this stuff is working." And then I got a testosterone pellet for the first time. And testosterone pellets raise your tea and keep it high. So there's no cyclical variation. And I've been on testosterone most of the time since I was 26 because I had less testosterone than my mom. So my body just wasn't making it. I had medical reasons for doing it. And I'm on testosterone therapy right now. I think you're crazy if you're over 40 and you're not on testosterone as a man or woman as long as your labs say you need it. If you're alive, your labs are going to say you need it in the world we've made. So that said, having up down cycles seemed important because with two pellets, I lost an inch on my forehead. And I'm like, what just happened? So, I stopped using pellets, but the damage was done. And that was why I decided to move the hair follicles. And there's I I think one or two podcasts on that. I think I'm going to do another one. And I if I would have had this and my testosterone levels were too high and I took one skin and I was using that, would that help to stop the testosterone driven hair loss? Yeah. I I'm afraid that we could pre prevent partially the the the the hair loss that you experience but not 100% our products not directly again preventing the conversion of testosterone to DHT and I would have had to put minoxidil on at the same time then it would have been okay it would be okay uh again minoxidil also doesn't prevent the conversion of it doesn't does not Yeah, only drugs finasteride. Yeah, only finasteride and dutsteride which again are are potentially you know harmful and so uh but as I said like if your hair follicle is in a you know healthier stronger state it could be that you could have experienced less of that that those effects and also minoxidil by again is stimulating the hair growth can prevent some of those effects. If I could go back in time, there's probably some nutritional things that I could have done in order to stop the DHT issue or I could have just not done the pellets and stuck with more natural ways of restoring testosterone with bio identical things. Any suggestions on what I could have done there? I know this is outside what you're doing with one skin, but you know a lot about this stuff. Yeah, I think for for hair health uh the the nutrients that we see that is important like obviously protein, you know, like keratene is is uh it's made of protein and and it's super important for your your is the main ingredient on your hair. um other in uh nutrients like vitamin D, biotin, iron. Iron really helps again maintaining the hair uh growth. Um you know, omega-3 fatty acids, things that are, you know, anti-inflammatory. Um all of this you know a very healthy diet will will help with your and you know another important part is it's about your scalp microbiome that not many people talk about and that's actually one of the things that we studied in this study. Uh so you know our scalp microbiome is composed of like you know this really diverse uh combination of bacteria and fungi and you have the good bacteria that supports your hair growth and you have the bad bacteria that's associated with hair loss. Uh and so in our studies we also saw that uh uh we collect the scalp microbiome at the baseline and after six months. Yeah. And we sequence the microbiome of the scalp and basically what we saw was a shift in some bacteras that are more related to hair loss to bacteras to a good bacteria that's related to you know hair growth after the 6 months. Uh we also saw some fungi that uh interesting enough like usually associated with dendruff like decreasing its number. And so overall we saw that our product and one of the ingredients of our product is a is a prebiotic um that not only helps with you know the balance of your scalp microbiome but also helps with hydration and nurture your scalp. And so we saw that at the end of the study, your scalp microbiome biome was more balanced and in a state that would be, you know, promoting better hair growth. Wow, that is a cool idea. Maybe a dozen years ago, there was a company on the show, I don't think they're around anymore, but they were making a special bacteria spray for your scalp to try and fix that problem, like a probiotic for the scalp. So your approach with one skin of just using a prebiotic so that you're feeding the good guys which support it that is that is super cool. Um I'm I'm actually really excited just this whole idea. Okay, cuz I've done all the hair stuff that you can that you can do at this point and this is just an entirely new approach. If I could go back in time to when I used the testosterone pellet that caused me to have too much DHT and lose my hair. The natural things that I would have done to block DHT would have been salt palmetto which a lot of guys take for your prostate. The problem is you need some DHT to put on muscle. Like DHT is not bad for you. Just too much of it isn't good for you. Rayi mushroom, pumpkin seed extract, even just having enough zinc. And I know for me, my genetics require much more zinc than the average person. So that would have been helpful. Maybe some nettle root. Like these are all things that guys could use if you're having baldness or hair loss that's caused by DHT. But how does a person know if it's DHT or mitochondrial dysfunction or lack of circulation or bad bacteria? Like how do you know what's causing hair loss? I think you know the best way is to get a diagnosis is obviously going through to a dermatologist. So the dermatologist can you know ask you or analyze your scalp but also ask you you know uh some labs and and try to identify um if you have you're deficient on any of those you know nutrients or even you know how more sensitive are you to DHT they can clearly see the pattern of hair loss uh that you are experienced um and so yeah I think the best way is to see a dermatologist when you're testing ing one skin, whether it's it's for the skin or for the scalp. Do you test this like in people in their 70s and their 60s and 50s and 40s? How do you do that? And do you see different results at different ages? Yeah, that's a great question. Um, if if I'm not mistaken, the age range varied like from 30 to 60 for this clinical study. I I need to double confirm that. And so we had the participants that were in the very that self um perceived to be experienced hair thinning even if you look in the pictures like their head is full of hair but uh they potentially they had more hair and they were experienced some hair loss and so up to participants that were like in intermediate and more advanced you know hair loss stage. So I think it it it's more about the stage of the hair loss that they're experiencing and less so related to the age. Some people can experience hair loss a very young age and some people again can be at their 50s and 60s. And so we saw an improvement throughout the spectrum of like a very early you know hair thinning to you know a late stage. OB obviously at the late stage we see uh not as a strong improvement in because it's harder to reverse in terms of the density in terms of the thickness but we still saw significant improvement uh for the intermediate to late stage of uh hair loss. That is so incredibly cool. I'm just I'm I'm so blown away by 40% to be honest. Uh, I didn't think the number would be that high. Um, okay. What if I use one skin three times a day? Is it going to grow faster? That's another great question. I think the only way to know is actually testing it. If I spill some on my back, will I grow more back hair? Uh, not necessarily. So, basically the sentence says good. And and people ask about like their face like a lot of people don't want face hair. And so basically we know that you know scinesscent cells it's what wherever scinesscent cells are associated with aging. So if they are you know driving wrinkles if they are that's where the products going to work. So it doesn't mean necessarily that's activating hair growth itself. It's mainly again targeting the scinesscent cells that are impairing your tissue that being your skin, your scalp to function well. And so you shouldn't be worried about having more hair on your face, on your back or in other areas, which you could experience with minoxidil. A lot of people that take, you know, minoxidil orally, they can experience more hair growth throughout their bodies. And I see all these younger biohackers sometimes saying, "I save so much money. I just take a minoxidil pill instead of using it topically." I'm like, "You're not going to like where the hair grows." So, I'm a big fan of topical use of minoxidil. And why have it work systemically when you don't need that? Uh, and besides, Minoxidil doesn't have anywhere near the same statistical results that you're getting with your new ones product. Yeah, we actually are running a parallel study with Pinoxidio and we don't have the data yet for the instrument measurement that we I shared with you. Uh but in terms of the consumer perception, we we do see similar perception in terms of improvement with you know OS1 hair. How long have you been using your own hair product? I've been using for six months, probably around six months. And I'll be completely honest because I experience a little bit of you know the androgen related uh hair loss. And so I've used minoxidil but I stop it because you know it can if you when you are using minoxidil in the beginning you can experience shedding and if you stop you're going to experience more shedding and uh because I'm still you know in my reproductive phase I don't want to stop and like experience the shedding and so I've been consistent with one hair like for the u past like six months and and even you can see you know some baby hairs around that you really do have them, don't you? Yeah. Yeah. So, that's really good evidence. Yeah. And and I I'll also say that I've done also PRP uh injection twice on my scalp. Uh that's that's another, you know, treatment, but not in the same time window or no in the in the same time window. Okay. So, you were stacking the deck in your favor, which is what you should do. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. There's a certain mindset that mostly came out of big pharma, but some people just got infected with it that says I have to do things only one at a time in order to see if it's working. And you're like, dude, if you wanted to bake bread, you're going to have to have water, yeast, flour, the right temperature, the right time. It takes multiple ingredients to get results. And so I I would do exactly that. If I was like, I'm going to go on a hair kick. I would do everything. Yeah. And honestly I mean I do rely on the clinical data from our studies on the this study people were solely using OS1 hair but obviously if I have other you know interventions that will support again hair loss and hair growth it's it's a tough journey for those who are going through it you know it really can impact your uh your self-esteem and so you want to do everything that you can to you know that is still safe to you remediate or or or reverse that. And so I have no problem, you know, in combining therapies. Just to be really straightforward, uh, One Skin products are very high-end. Like, they're not cheap. I I use them because they work already on on my face and things. Um, it's not the only thing that I use. I I stack things on my face as well. And your hair product is also not particularly cheap, but good god, 40% improvement. Do you have some kind of a deal? just buy a six-mon supply all at once so that you just know what you're going to do. Totally. Yeah, we do. And you get like 20% off if you buy six months at once. Code Dave. So, Karolina is going to give you an additional discount. So, what I would do is pick up the sixmonth package, which gets you 20% off, and then stack it with whatever other discount you guys are gifting to listeners. Like said, we didn't plan this ahead of time. So, we'll just use code Dave. And if that doesn't work, then we'll edit this part out. It's going to work. No, no worry about that. How soon will it be until we look out at a crowd of people and no one is bald? Here comes Dave. Well, my hope would be, you know, between 15 and 20 25 years. 20 25 years. That long? You seem you seem skeptical. I'm I I'm a scientist so I'm you know I'm conservative because I I obviously there is a lot of things that can work but it can you know in terms of validating this safety we need like at least a few years to make sure that everyone can use it and so I would you know lean around on this safe side and would say you know 15 to 20 years or so. I'm gonna ask Chad GBT what it thinks. Let's Let's see it. All right. I said predict how long it'll be before less than 1% of people are bald. Oh, so they're saying gene editing, stem cell, follicle regeneration therapies, and their best case prediction is 2035 to 2045. So you're saying that they're saying 10 to 20 years and you were saying a little bit above that and they're saying by 20 basically 2050 widespread affordable things and oh I like this by60 less than 1% of people bald by choice assuming no large systemic disruption. So that means no comets can hit the planet if we want to just permanently punch baldness in the face. You agree? I agree. Yeah. All right. And already 40% hair growth in six months using one skin. That's already a huge step compared to what we could do before this. Even the best things I've seen with lasers and topicals don't approach that. So this is a quantum leap here. Your trial though is pretty small. Like how many people were in your trial? 30. 30 for the group of U. Oh, 30 is not too bad. I I heard like seven or something earlier. No, seven was for male only. So uh the remaining was so 23 female and seven maleo in this group. That's weird because don't men lose hair more easily than women although women can't lose hair. Yeah, we basically recruited I think our goal was to have around like 25% of men and uh and mainly because men have other treatment op options and women are more you know conservative in terms of the drug options that are available for men and so a lot of our audience it's women that you know are going through menopause are going through you know some of those hormonal changes and uh and because they already treating your face. Now there is, you know, this uh awareness about treating your scalp as well as a way to prevent, you know, hair thinning that's going to probably affect most of us at some point in our lives. For women, what is the single most overlooked factor when it comes to reversing hair loss? I have a couple. Let's see if you want to shoot holes in them. Okay, let's go. Thyroid function, right? you're getting thin hair, you don't know why. Like, oh, your thyroid levels are low and that'll cause it. And a lot of people just don't connect that. So, that thin hair can be a major issue. And you'd see it first on the outside of your eyebrows. And like I have I don't know if you can see it in this. I have very thin outer eyebrows cuz I had Hashimoto's since at least my early 20s, which meant my thyroid was low for long enough for me to get permanent thinning of my eyebrows. If I use the new OneSkin hair uh product on my eyebrows, does it make my eyebrows fuller? It could potentially. Uh we have not tested for eyebrows, but we are testing for beard. A lot of the guys, you know, have some beard patches. And so we are actually on our second month and we already have a really interesting before and afters from the the guys that are in this study. So we are collecting 3 months um in a few weeks and we we hope to show that this that can you know improve your hair on your scalp can also improve your beard and could potentially improve your your your brow. Uh we have not studied on the brow though. I've never tried putting hair growth stuff on my eyebrows because I guess I just don't care that much because I'm a guy, but I know a lot of women are really into that. And then I know there's also let which is a compound that's meant for growing eyelashes. Some people also put that on their eyebrows. Can you use one skin on your eyelashes? You could. Again, we have not tested um and but the product it is safe. if we needed to make sure to not get it inside your eyes just like you know on your eyelashes. But the product is safe for um yeah to apply in on your eyelashes. And if I painted it all over my eyelids, would I get like bushy eyelids? Cuz that'd be kind of cool. I'm just I I don't think I'm going to get that bushy. But darn it. Okay. One day my fantasy will come true. All right. That would be so odd. Like close your eyes and there's like a little fuzz. Another thing that I think is is overlooked when it comes to hair loss in men and women is levels of copper in the body, right? Low copper can give you gray hair, but it can also give you thinning hair. And a lot of times post pregnancy, women, you have this amazing hair when you're pregnant from all the hormones, and then it just suddenly goes all to And that's because when you expel the placenta, you've lost all the copper that the body had been storing there. And we don't typically reconsume that the way we used to. So that means you've got to be on enough copper to keep your hair thick, right? Yeah. No, that's a great point. Yeah. And that's part of minerals 101, the formula that I make. I I consider like the most fundamental longevity molecules that includes your hair and everything. It's vitamin D and minerals 101. And yes, I make those. I sell those guys. You know, full transparency, whatever. I make those because who cares if you take all the expensive stuff if you don't have the right minerals and fats solubles? doesn't work. How important is basic nutritional status when people are going to be using the one skin products? Are they going to work even if I'm not taking my vitamins or do vitamins work better with them? will definitely work better if you you know if you are in this you know balanced uh nutritional state uh because again even though if we're fighting you know the scinesscent cells your hair is follicle still needs like the nutri nutrients to you know grow a new hair and so if you don't have all of these nutrients will definitely impair the hair growth so ideally you combine them I think adequate animal protein consumption is really important because of amino acid availability. Plant-based proteins just don't do that. And we've probably both seen vegans with very thin, ratty hair. Uh I know that my hair thinned substantially. Not that I lost hair, but that the the shafts were thinner when I was a vegan. It was profoundly bad for me because of mineral starvation caused by the plants. Uh so if you are vegan and listening to this, number one, I love you. I mean, tease you very much, but that's just out of compassion. Uh, and you can tease me back. Uh, but if you are vegan, you probably want to take extra good care of your hair. And for God's sake, take your mineral supplements. You're really going to need them. And take them away from the green juice already so they can absorb. What other things do people do that might make the one skin hair products absorb better or work better? Should I wash with a special shampoo? Like what else could I do if I want to stack the deck fully in my favor? Like stop blow drying like what what give me the whole list. Yeah, I mean we can think of the things that are, you know, causing, you know, uh damage in your hair. So a lot of the oxidative stress in terms of you're if you're in the sun too much, you know, if you're getting a lot of Yeah. damage directly into your scalp, that would definitely, you know, compromise your scalp health. Uh I would say also the buildup of products. So you know if if you're applying the product, you are not like washing it, you know, every few days with a shampoo that's like supposed to be very cleansing to remove the buildup. The product eventually won't penetrate as well. And so make sure that you you know you you have a clean scalp as as often as possible uh to uh promote the the absorption of the product. Um you know things as you already said on like make sure that you have you know your your your nutrients in in a good place. Uh if you want to compliment with red light therapy for women in general like your hair becomes very sensitive when you when you sleep your wet hair. So you know try to avoid that. What about sunshine in here? Is sun good for the scalp or bad for the scalp? So too much sun it is is bad right? The same way that can cause our skin age it can also you know cause damage in your scalp. And so for people that are, you know, already have some kind of, you know, more like thin areas, if you're in the sun, you're you're going to experience also like scalp sunburn. And again, you're just causing inflammation. You're causing the formation of more scinesscent cells and that can contribute. So try to use a hat or, you know, if you're in the sun for too long, you can even apply like sunscreen in some areas that are more visible. But definitely we know that uh you know it's going to lead to um free radicals and some damage and and you want to avoid that. Also, you know, there is a lot of oxidative stress um that happens during hair loss and so our our product also contains like some very potent antioxidants like flavonoids like ficetine uh that can help combating um you know the anti the the free radicals and make sure that your scalp is again protected from the free radicals. There's evidence even for things as basic as ascorbic acid or vitamin C using that topically on the skin and corsetin is much more powerful than vitamin C. Do are you also using ascorbic acid in it? No, we don't have ascertic acid on the topical product. I haven't seen that for use on the scalp. I've just seen that for use topically, but it make of course it makes so much sense because you want to protect the mitochondria and from what I've seen adequate sun exposure increases hair thickness. It also increases collagen thickness. So, zero sun on your hair ever is a bad strategy or at least on your scalp. You probably don't need it on your hair, but I don't know how you get it on your scalp without getting on your hair. Um, but if you sunburn your scalp or overexpose it, that's going to be bad. Just like you pale, ghostly vampire skin isn't healthy and it's not a look you want either. The same will go for your scalp, right? Yeah. Yeah. 100%. How much sun do you expose your scalp to? Uh, I mean I don't do it intentionally. I, you know, usually like to, you know, get around like 10 to 15 minutes morning sun and so that's probably about it. Um, and I'm out, you know, there doing sports and so I have a hat. Uh, so I do get more sun, but if I'm on the beach and I know that I can potentially get some damage, I will, you know, definitely wear a hat or or something. That makes uh it it makes great sense as advice for everyone. Like wear a hat and if you want to go out for even like a half hour or maybe at most an hour a day in direct sunlight, I think you're going to be fine. But if you're dying your hair, you're probably going to mess up your hair dye with that. And if you're dying your hair with synthetic products, that's probably bad for your scalp and certainly bad for your liver and your detox systems. And it's one of the big sources that and fingernail polish for women are are really big sources of toxins. Uh so if people are dying their hair using relatively harsh chemicals uh with cancer warnings on them, is that going to work against having a healthy scalp? Yeah, 100%. Everything that's again really harsh on your scalp and and a lot of people that you know dye hairs or they use like the the bleaching kind of you know ingredients up to your scalp. If you use only on your strands is not it's not bad. But uh uh if it's on your scalp and it's affecting like again the root of the hair that's definitely going to compromise um the your scalp health and so you you want to be very careful with those harsh ingredients and there are ways I mean not for everyone depends how you you know you dye your hair that it will not apply to the scalp directly. Works for me. Coffee is it good for your hair or bad for your hair? Uh again I have not studied specifically if I would assume you know coffee has a lot of uh properties in stimulating like you know the the circulation blood flow and and in that sense in our in our ingredient we have uh jinseng uh yeah and that's again is supposed to stimulate blood flow um and so I would assume that uh coffee could help in that sense. I guess there's two aspects of coffee in hair growth that would be important. The first one is caffeine. Is one skin using caffeine as part of your formula? Uh not on the hair product we do have on the eye cream. So caffeine under your eyes in the morning is profoundly effective. So I love it that you put it in there. uh for the under eye serum. Um you'll notice a difference like if you wake up and you ate gluten or breathe mold or whatever and you're like I'm puffy. Caffeine works really quickly. So I I very much appreciate that in the eye cream. Sometimes I'll take a red eye and I'm on stage somewhere. It's very helpful to have that in the morning because you're not always going to look like you just got a good night's sleep when you didn't get a good night's sleep. And a lot of celebrities and uh people I've worked with, they will use one skin, they use a caffeine formula just because they know they have to be camera ready. So that's a neat hack right in and of itself. There's a ton of evidence for caffeine on the scalp and you can get just straight up caffeine things that you could safely stack with one skin and it actually reduces DHT in the scalp which is kind of cool, right? It also helps with u mitochondrial activity and it stops because it stops DHT it stops the miniaturization of follicles which is pretty cool. So that's not coffee though that's just caffeine. Mhm. And if you drink coffee, you get reduced inflammation just because of the polyphenols and improved microirculation and you get something called chlorogenic acid and the polyphenols and they actually protect follical stem cells. You can also if you just don't like coffee, well number one, you probably have tried kale. You didn't like it but you learned to. You can just learn to like coffee. And Damon John and I were just talking about that. He didn't like coffee, started drinking it. Now he likes it. So, if you don't like coffee though, you could take chlorogenic acid as a as a capsule for longevity purposes, but it's in danger coffee and even other moldy coffee, so like that's fine. Um, I have never seen evidence of putting coffee on the scalp, although I did try this years ago. I would take my used um espresso stuff and I mix it up with MCT oil and I like smear it on my head and all it did was make me uh smell good and look stupid. So, I don't recommend that, but some caffeine might be helpful. Uh, and there, that's my whole caffeine coffee hair story for what I know about it. Yeah. No, that's super interesting. Um, again, the more natural ingredients that we can have that can prevent the conversion to DHT, the better. Okay. Very, very cool. I know that you just launched the new hair product from One Skin and I think you guys are going to sell out of this because your clinical results are insane and I know a lot of listeners in fact some are reaching out during this are saying well I use the once again topical stuff because it works really well. people see results with that with two or three months of consistent use. And and you've gone deep on the science on other episodes, so we don't have to go deep into that. But your reputation is that people keep using it because it works. And guys, you're listening to this, this is not the cheapest stuff that's out there. Um, it just works much better than the cheap stuff, which probably doesn't work at all and might even be bad for you. So, this is a case of you get what you pay for, but I think you're going to sell out of the hair product because you have a history of having great clinical results that are truthful. So, when people hear that 40% number, they're just they're going to want to do the same thing that I I do, which is get me on this stuff for 6 months and let's see what happens. Yeah. I mean, I I I feel very confident on, you know, the research that we put into this product. it we spent over two years just developing the formula and all these studies and plus like the six months clinical study. So it it is again a very challenging uh condition that we're going after but we feel really excited about this data and and I hope a lot of people can see the benefits because I experienced for myself I know that's you know it's kind of a tough journey and so the more than we can help everyone that's going through this you know that that's you know our purpose here and thank you David for, you know, allowing me to share our research and supporting us and uh yeah, helping us to spread the word. Of course, you're such a deep nerd research scientist and I say that as a compliment and you spending two years on clinicals before you launch it. uh thanks for just doing the good science and you've been very transparent with listeners on our previous interviews about exactly how you've gone through the process of identifying this new peptide and then now two more years of showing that it actually works and man I cannot wait to talk in 6 months when I have you know this even fluffier head of hair it's going to be awesome can't wait to see it so go to onskin.com order the six month supply and save 20% and use code Dave and you'll get some more savings. And seriously, let's all meet in 6 months and just have massive crazy amounts of hair. It's going to be so fun. See you next time on the Human Upgrade podcast.