foreign welcome to Mavericks I'm Joey Garcia and today's episode we'll be speaking to one of the leading open blockchain voices in Thailand and Southeast Asia the founder and CEO of biccup the largest digital asset trading platform in Thailand he's a Visionary and definitely a Maverick it's top this is Mavericks brought to you by zapperbank right well morningtop is a real pleasure and a privilege to to have you join us here in zapper Bank in in Gibraltar it's really great and I thought I'd like to kick things off talking about some earlier times in your life I mean you were educated way way back in the day you had some touch points to the UK and back then the technology was very sort of nascent so you know what what was the original trigger for you what what Creator the interest what was the thing that drove you from you know a standard let's call it education to something that was very very new and Innovative and Mason what what what what were the triggers back then um I guess bitcap and Zappos we are the the old guys yeah in the industry I've been in this space for for nine years now my crypto blockchain Journey started in 2013. right after graduation I I did my undergraduate and master's degree in the UK and in economics and most of the economic students you know traditional career paths would be exactly to either go for investment banking or Consulting and to stay in the UK right but for me I I always wanted to find new experiences right I went to a high school in New Zealand I did you know five years in the UK and I thought you know I haven't explored China yet and back then China was you know growing growing very fast um in 2013 so I decided to apply for a job uh at one of the boutique Investment Banking firm and I decided to choose a boutique one because I prefer to work in a small company and and get to see every Dimension instead of working for all the largest firms and be one of the small you know guys doing the same thing every day so I decided to to fly to China to Shanghai after graduation and have you watched the movie The Wolf of Wall Street yeah absolutely yeah absolutely that's the industry I was involved in after graduation so thanks for them so then I mean that's sort of the standard sort of let's call it the Wolf of Wall Street channel the green economics um and this whole new technology that barely existed what I mean what what was the first sort of trigger point to to that right so I wasn't involved in the pink sheets strikes okay you have uh NASDAQ New York Stock Exchange or ecqb QX and then pink sheets uh very few regulations and the stocks are volatile right one day at the office I came across this Bitcoin thing the price went from you know 11 back then up to a thousand one hundred and fifty dollars um in a short period of time right overtook all the pink sheets stock so I was curious what is this pink sheet stock you know Bitcoin thing I remember talking to my colleagues um Darren like do you know have you heard of this Bitcoin thing why is the price so like volatile right shoot up very quickly at you know ten thousand percent back then he didn't bother right I and I was so lucky that I I did I did a few more research and it came across a Blog written by Mark Anderson uh called why Bitcoin matters in 2013. it was a random blog post back then but now it's a classic you know New York Times article and in that article I got to see uh the potential of Bitcoin how it is going to bank the unbanked we can do micropayments for the first time in human history you know how developing countries can LeapFrog developed nations with the newest you know Financial infrastructure and I was exploring what I like what I don't like after graduation and I found out that corporate jobs is not for me you were a Maverick a very early day Maverick definitely and then so then and that takes you back to Thailand I mean back then again I imagine Industries regulatory authorities policy makers lawmakers I mean really no one would have back in 2013 14 understood what was the initial um reaction back then we've spoken to people from different parts of the world we've seen different things how did it evolve in Thailand you know looking back it was a pain painful experience what we've been through but on the other side we also achieved Miracles like how we got here today right nine years ago I flew back home after you know Shanghai I founded the very first Bitcoin wallet company called coins.co.th you know the coinbase yeah of Thailand back then before that there were no Autobook exchange right there just a wallet uh that that host I mean local Bitcoin was was a dominant player back in 2013. and I founded a startup the first Bitcoin startup in the country from my parents um clothing shop my parents sell clothes right there are some small smes so I asked them for a spare bedroom uh a spare room sorry in in the shop and founded the company with a one-person laptop it was so funny I was doing the Arbitrage I created a blank page right so customers can submit the buy order and the sell order and then on the back end I would go to local Bitcoin I was free riding on their wallet system and I was buying from local Bitcoin selling from local Bitcoin making small spread growing from there and I had no life for for like eight months eight to ten months um I was hassling by myself you know making like small spreads keeping uh saving up to expand the team and then I remember the bank of Thailand issued a formal a proper formal letter right to all the commercial banks in Thailand saying that uh Bitcoin could be a potency scheme the value could go to zero anytime do not go anywhere near it there was an official statement from the bank of Thailand and my parents especially especially my dad he was not pleased right they sent me all the way to to Oxford they had I mean we didn't we didn't I didn't come from a wealthy family right they had a they had to have lunch boxes every day to save up to send the kids and I got into a very good school like Oxford University so the expectation was high right to get a huge paychecks like other friends from yeah after graduation I was doing this Bitcoin thing nobody have heard of about and one day the bank of Thailand said it could be a point six scheme a big fight in the family right my parents could not understand this technology but I was stubborn you know I I read a Blog written by Mark Anderson and saw the vision division right the the first utility or application of Bitcoin back then was remittance right to to disrupt the Western Union absolutely with the blockchain rail and um I also talked to Dan chat an ex-executive of PayPal right um after the first job in Shanghai I had a quick like two weeks like a job as a Financial Consultant I I had a chat with him in the Palo Alto in one of the pan pancakes shop right on one of the branches and I asked him what do you think about Bitcoin and he was like top you are you're the luckier generation uh the original vision of PayPal was not due to be this boring payment Gateway they wanted to create the digital dollar but the technology wasn't ready back then they didn't have cloud computing they did not have blockchain they did not have smartphone right everything is ready to be you know disrupted now right all the infrastructures you're the luckiest generation Bitcoin is going to change to the financial landscape you know after talking or connecting the dots and you know talking to these guys I was stubborn in the vision and I I pushed forward uh did you think all innovators need to do that do you think that when new Industries evolve or new technologies evolve that that kind of thought process is needed to get people to that end game I mean I suppose anyone in any new the application of any new technology we've seen it in different parts of the world I mean I suppose Skype arguably you know if they've gone through a system of applying for telecoms licenses in 50 countries I'm not sure how far they would have got do you need that determination is that something you'd encourage younger people to pursue I guess you know entrepreneurs are not like nine to five day-to-day jobs a special species that I mean if you see previous entrepreneurs those who achieve extreme success there were the few that see what we call the important truth the minority few that see the important truth whereas the majority got it wrong that's the that's where the opportunity lies right the tremendous opportunities lies I'm not the smartest student in class right it's just scraping a pass at Oxford actually actually but looking back you know I was one of the few minority group of people we are right we were very right about Bitcoin whereas the rest of the world were very wrong about this technology I mean looking back like eight years ago Bitcoin when I when we said the word Bitcoin people would think oh money laundering oh absolutely drug money oh Thai money oh dark Market oh don't go anywhere near it right oh scammers right and I remember we had to even Rebrand the company right we're not a Bitcoin company we're a blockchain company in 2014 Bitcoin was money laundering right that's the perception in 2015 160 oh blockchain is is going to change the world Bitcoin don't go anywhere near it I suppose we've seen that before right top I mean I would say like early adopters of a lot of new technologies and I'm going to say the internet um are not always the good guys so the earliest adopters of the internet and what it was used for were not necessarily and you could say in the early days of people use a Silk Road example Etc and that's fine but I mean what what do you think that's got us to where we are today and how much more do you think there is to go where are we on the track are we halfway along are we at a point where most of the world understands it or are we still in early learning days around the technology no I think we're about to reach a mass adoption but you were right you know with the newest technology criminals are the first to adopt it right they're they're the first two used automobiles yeah um Telephone is the conspiracy theory right um and same with Bitcoin but that's because the the cost is High I mean cost of being caught right they have the incentive to use the the latest technology and if they win their profit margin is much higher than other industry too so it makes sense for them to adopt the latest technology but it doesn't mean that technology is a is a bad thing yeah of course yeah yeah it's like a hammer if you use a hammer to build a house then it's going to increase the productivity but if you use a hammer to hit people then it's going to be a bad technology it's true technology it's it's neutral in yourself and and let me take you back to what you were saying in terms of um your developments in Thailand and there was that notice that came out or the the the the the that your parents saw on this there was threat of this being treated as a Ponzi scheme when what what happened next what happened after that um so in 2014 the bank of Thailand issued a formal letter to one the banks first and then what happens next was the anti-money laundering officers sends me a an investigation letter um I was so stressed you know imagine starting a company when I was 23. I didn't know starting the business would be this hard because there were no reporting system in place no traditional banks in Thailand or actually anywhere in the world has ever submitted a Bitcoin transaction report right there must be uh someone to create a reporting standard I tried to reach out to all the top legal firms in the country I have the money to pay I have these issues can you help me and nobody dares to to help because it was in Bitcoin was in a gray area right nobody would risk their reputation for this project so we ended up creating a proper reporting standard for the country working there with the anti-money laundering officers we had to invent new reporting standards new templates you know reporting all the computer laptops models IP addresses uh you know all the all the thresholds because we cannot use the same threshold as Fiat reporting transactions too I remember after I was I came back from the um the anti-money laundering office half of my half of my employees left the company because they were scared right right after they found out that we were being investigated we were being investigated um I was so stressed um but it's not that's not the end and then the bank of Thailand sent us a proper like investigation like invitation letter um to come in and explain what we what what what we do right do you have a payments license to operate this Bitcoin company do we have a do you have a remittance license to operate this Bitcoin company what about the e-payment license it was in a gray area because they were there were no regulations whether we were the crazy ones that were pushing the Frontiers so um again I reach out to all the legal firms nobody accepted the job because they don't want to risk their reputation imagine Bitcoin eight years ago yeah in a gray area so we ended up pitching you know explaining to Regulators what we trying to do um for for the country uh how the potential of this technology you know how it is going to change the financial landscape um again after I came back to the office have the employees left we we had we had to rehire like what were the reactions of those initial discussions with those regulatory authorities or were they receptive do they understand it were they willing to develop or what was the reaction back then obviously there were a lot of doubts of course and nobody fully understand uh the Bitcoin technology or the blockchain technology I still remember we had to Rebrand after that meeting saying that oh we are a blockchain company here we are doing you know you know Innovations blockchain is going to change the world oh we don't Bitcoin was like a a word that we would never mention right and nobody understands that it's actually you know an open blockchain is it's the same thing right um so education wasn't catching up so we had to uh find the right context to explain to the The Regulators and and the society um and you almost need something to interrupt but in the same way that you thought thought or saw this as an in an Innovative new and developing oh you almost need that from the regulatory authorities as well um I think a lot of authorities sometimes react to new technology we can talk about the Bitcoin protocol at the early days of like well we already have law let's just try and let's try and cover it all within existing law but what they need to do is think about this as a new and developing ecosystem and think of new standards or new or new regulation sometimes that's a difficult conversation yeah and I I love this quote I have to quote it again the arrival of electric lights does not come from a continuous Improvement of candles exactly right you can't continue to develop on candles and expect to arrive at literacy so it requires new thinking new framework new regulations sometimes Legacy system is not good because it's too costly to to change things in the mindset and it doesn't catch up with technology right so maybe zero may be a good a better thing to to start a new and where the Thai Authority is receptive to that concept did they is that what has happened in Thailand I mean there are regulatory standards in in Thailand the SEC or the Thai CC were one of the first regulatory authorities to actually bring this within the scope of Licensing how did they get there how what part do you play in that in that discussion oh a lot of meetings you know we we even I remember the meeting with the bank of Thailand right I was studying the regulations the definite definition of money how they Define money in Thailand was last updated 80 years ago like 80 years ago 70 80 years ago we didn't even use the internet back then so Bitcoin is not classified as money because of the it takes time to update the Legacy law right um so uh then the bank of Thailand has no authority over Bitcoin transaction because it is not classified as money so now who would be regulating this space so they throw a two the the SEC right to regulate the space and I think the the change was in 2000 and um actually before the SEC we had another issue the Rd the revenue department came came to our office how do you report taxes are you avoiding taxes you know with all these Bitcoin transactions transactions how do you pay taxes I had to defend with so so many levels so many meetings with The Regulators that we made a small spread like we can't Pace in Thailand we pay seven percent v80 you know the profit was one percent spread on the average it's not a stable business model right so we had to fight for this SBT special business tax right nothing we were the first to launched you know all these Frameworks regulations on so many dimensions right the um the bank of Thailand the anti-money laundering reports uh how to submit taxes with this type of businesses right and the the big change was in 2017. I think first of April 2017 Japan announced that Bitcoin is legal yeah if you remember yeah yeah uh your big camera chain can can you can pay pay stuff with Bitcoins buy and sell stuff with Bitcoin in Japan and that's when like the regulators and everyone started to like wake up and you know and study more and every day every year there are more and more transactions on the platform more and more people got into uh you know Bitcoin transaction learn about the industry the technology so the volume gets bigger and bigger each year right um and in Thailand by the end of 2017 that's the the second boom right the first boom was in 2013 11 through 1150 second boom was six hundred dollars to twenty thousand dollars right in 2017 end of 2017. so I um the first company was sold to go check they are they are the right sharing the Uber of Asia right they wanted to get into the payment space acquired the company and I I left and uh I participated in the first ever SEC fintech challenge in 2017 I spoke on more than 300 stages because after Japan announced that Bitcoin is legal they were more awareness and a lot more interest and also the price right went up very quickly there are a lot of media pressed and they had nobody to interview because nobody has done this apart from me in the country so I've been spoken on over 300 stages but I thought that's not enough we need to demo the potential of blockchain so I participated in the first ever SEC fintech challenge I created a stock exchange 2.0 back then in Thailand to settle stock it took three t plus three days yeah now it's t plus two but still not not acceptable yeah right so we created a t plus zero instant settlement right Stock Exchange 2.0 and we ended up you know becoming the the winner of that uh fintech challenge and I came to the SEC and said well I want to turn this into a real business now I'm the winner of your competition and they kind of lost face a bit because they said well the regulation doesn't permit you to yeah to do this thing the only Monopoly player in this space is the Thai Stock Exchange regulation states that nobody can compete right um and I said well what's the point of creating a fintech competition if the winner cannot turn this into a real business right so they started to create this sandbox program right so I can we can test in a closed environment and I was lucky because in 2000 and early in 2018 that's when Bitcoin reached the highest point twenty thousand dollars the Minister of Finance ordered the Thai SEC right to have a regulation for this space in particular they did not order the bank of Thailand because Bitcoin is not classified as money right it takes too long to change the definition of money in Thailand so the or the the SEC and luckily I was working with them on the framework on the sandbox so we turned that quickly into a digital asset exchange license so after realizing that you know a proper license is coming out in 2018 I started to fundraise right and I was able to close uh 1.2 million dollars um sorry 2.1 million dollars at a 16 million dollars valuation it was the highest seed round in the Thai startup history back then I acquired an I.T company and turned that into bit cup and we've been growing growing a thousand percent every year for for five years now incredible it's a it's an incredible um story I say I mean today obviously you are by far I mean you're the largest by far in in Thailand um and but but let me ask you and pick up his huge uh in that market and a very very clear leader in that industry um exchanges I pick up for the Thai population they are the interaction or the primary sort of point of interaction with the ecosystem or all the technology um but what would you say I mean and this is something I hear come up every so often people talk about blockchain Etc but what would you say around the criticism that exists not not a bigger but of the the ecosystem that that we're yet to see real sort of applications and use cases of the technology Beyond let's say Bitcoin is a unit of value or digital stories of value the actual or the all of the stuff that's happened around that and it changes the very Central points where a lot of activity around that happens or um but but the actual appear what what would you say to that top you're right that is true that is correct I think the main kpi of uh exchanges around the world going forward is not on trading volume but other activities Beyond trading volumes other applications right um but the reason I think the reason why most of the people who said they haven't seen you know utility of this technology was because most of the people are living in a bubble I mean I have credit cards I have phones I have a I'm staying in a country with price stability but if you go to Argentina or Venezuela or you know Ukraine right now um they you know they're all African countries they keep all their wealth in in Bitcoin because of the hyperinflation right or because of the um bad badly run Financial infrastructure they can leave frogs easily with a phone that is connected to the internet they can migrate their wealth and start a new life without having to leave their cars at the airport leaving their houses at the airport and nobody can take away your wealth right that's the economic freedom that this technology is able to provide and I mean it is helping right now two billion uh people were saying at Davos two billion people are currently unbanked they cannot participate in the economy because they excluded they are the they don't have this this financial inclusion simply because they they're not making enough money for for them to be bankable for them for the banks to bank them with profit profitability because banks have this High Sun cost on opening branches armored trucks to move money around ATM machines right then they need to need to make money back by onboarding the right clients and people in the Philippines or in Asia in particular right uh 50 of the population are unbanked because they don't make enough money for them to be a good customer for the banks right yeah and it's it's incredible isn't it to see um there were some uh Global adoption indexes that are published by the analysis group Etc and the top 10 in the world I think four of those countries were from the southeast Asia which Thailand were eighth in in the world in terms of the adoption rate so a lot of that a lot of that makes a lot of it makes complete sense I think number one was Vietnam in in the globe but the the adoption rate so high the activity is high within um within uh within exchange platforms exchange platforms are the primary interaction the point of interaction between that user community and the technology do you think because it's such a global industry is there are there issues around I mean I always call it regulatory Arbitrage Thailand in a very strong position but if I'm an average user on the street in whatever country I am in the world do I know the difference between pickup and FTX or XYZ or whoever it might be is is regulatory Arbitrage an issue of people or platforms trying to place themselves in countries or jurisdictions where it's easier and other people or do users understand that if they're counterparters in your example big up in Thailand properly regulated that there's a degree of security do you think that there's that understanding within the global Community yet or not really um I mean in the past eight years we see two clear strategies right in in terms of running an exchange either you move fast break things apologize later right like FTX right they were able to gain market share quickly and they founded the company much later than us yeah right but they cut Corners to to gain the market share move fast break things and hopefully they can fix things later you know and another strategy strategy is the good a good example is coinbase they have been the very first to launch the product in the world right 2011 I think um and they prefer to move in a steady manner you know they prefer to work closely with the regulators right and they prefer to not cut Corners right and it's clear after the incidents last year it was a tough year like Luna FTX all these three arrows no Domino's impact the ones that run properly did not have any impact we did not get any impact right and clearly the regulations uh we're moving towards a a latter strategy everywhere right there'll be stricter tighter regulations um I mean unregulated players mess things up but the regulated players are the one that are being punished with even stricter regulations yeah um but what would you say it's up to the point of let's say I mean FTX were regulated I mean they were regulated we're not going to go into standards and assessments I think I think the key word here is standardization right um before we talk about transparency we before we talk about governance right before we talk about regulations we need to have this definition of oh clear standardization across the world for example in Thailand right bit cup has nine companies now right and the the main one is the exchange The Exchange became the CII CII of the country the country's critical information infrastructure um we re it requires us to send daily reports right to The Regulators it's almost like proof of Reserve right and maybe it's in the hearing right now we may need an NCR 100 now uh NCR on top of our customers deposits and this money right net capital Reserves uh has to be our own money apart from keeping customers money one to one dollar to dollar right and we cannot use leverage customers money on even money market nothing right savings only right but on top of that we need our own money NCR um 100 right and we are not allowed to use this NCR even for payroll nothing just money like sitting in in a bank as a blanket deposit right um if you talk to other regulated players they're they're not gonna most of them even just to submit daily reports they're gonna push back and say this is too much way way too much I mean I I would say Way Beyond that I would say that there are lots of lots of jurisdictions in the world that have basically sought to introduce standards of regulation of the space that are purely relating to AML and kyc so assuming that that's that that and there are many countries and um they've looked to comply with the fetf recommendations and introduce standards for registration or licensing which are very very basic obviously if you take out of a big global trading platform requirements of governance and segregation of customer assets etc etc etc that's how you end up in problems but my question is if I'm an average user on the street the the requirements that pick up are subject to are extremely high in that Global context but I don't know that so if I'm an average user on the street do I know the difference between pickup or platform eggs that ask me for a passport copy when I on board no I don't think the users will know if you look at the traditional banking sector I don't think average Common Man users on the street would know if a banking job router is safer than a bank in the UK but on the back end I think we need to fix the standardization of a bank in Gibraltar in a bank in the UK they must meet the same standards yeah because on the customer facing part they would have no idea yeah but in the crypto space um those who have been in the space long enough in the industry long enough we would get the word of mouth that the extra reputation um you know branding perspective Advantage um that people tend tend to trust as more and what would you say uh top to the question that because you know put in a post FTX World um and let's just use FTX as an example of a regulated Exchange an entity a very centralized a C5 related platform and that created all the issues surrounding which we won't go into the the trust has fallen away from this concept of a centralized counterpart and the sort of this whole sort of middle man to middleware um argument that now look guys there are too many issues around regulated platforms trust the technology don't trust the entity so let's all move to decentralized networks let's move to a D5 Universe let's not use bitclub let's only use Dex related platforms is that something that you see happening will that happen more of people lost trust or faith in regulated counterparts they trust the technology more or is that not happening uh is is a matter of time if if you talk about short-term medium term or long term right in the short term like my grandmother or grandfather will not be able to use Levi we need to humanize the technology right people know how to use Skype now how to use zoom now but nobody knows what a TCP IP protocol is right people knows how to use Gmail Hotmail Yahoo mail but nobody nobody knows what a it was an SMTP protocol is yeah so we need to humanize right for for the short term maybe in the long term once money is no longer paper-based once we are in the web three once people are you know equipped with you know how you we are able everyone in the in the world can log into their emails now for web two in the future people can log into their own wallet for web free maybe that's when the D5 would take off but you still need the um The Exchange as a transition as a bridge from the old world to the new world otherwise how are you able to convert Fiat to crypto because with D5 they they cannot they can only allow you to exchange values from you know digital to digital not from physical to digital you need an exchange for that and also I don't think the the old world would be happy here private fully defy applications you know running the world yeah we need to strike the balance between the old world and the new world that's a that's a really good point and I mean I I always use so I always use um the ultimate D5 project out there is the Bitcoin protocol and uh and access to D5 or access to BTC um hasn't largely through the two billion accumulated users around the world tends to be through regulator counterparts or the biggest percentage at least is it might be through Zappo coinbase and other platforms big Hub Etc um do you think that that will emerge to The Wider D5 space will the regulated exchanges like big Hub become the access points to D5 and you've done some work around that um already and these permission entry points Etc you talk a little bit about that yes um the concept is called permission and D5 right where we are making sure that both worlds are happy old world they are happy with AML kyc CDD um you know all these requirements um and the new world we must have an open system where they can move fast break things with greatest freedom of and freedom to innovate so um I believe that the exchange would become the Gateway a white listed we will need to whitelist the address the addresses and we need to map the phase to each addresses but once they go through the Gateway right they are allow to have full freedom to to innovate I think that's where the world is heading which is a hybrid model right you you cannot just be moving too slow and be too conservative when the fourth Industrial Revolution is coming with all the technology AI Big Data blockchain wherever if I mean we found this one interesting graphs if you look back 5 000 years of History um you know in terms of productivity or human development you see a straight line mostly and during the Industrial Revolution where we have more muscle power like machine can lift heavy things right we leverage on technology then we see the you know the exponential Improvement but now we're in the phase where we have more like you know intelligent power mind power AI fourth Industrial Revolution it's going to be through the roof the innovations that it will come out it will change the way the way we communicate it will change the way we work you know it will change the way we travel it will change the businesses right entirely so we cannot move too slow either but again we cannot move fast and break things like like Facebook because we hope we have a lot of customers money right so we need to strike the right balance and that's why the word fintech comes in we're not a financial company we're not a tech company either we're not we don't move fast and break things like tech company we're a fintech company right let's try the right balance between the two worlds I I think that's a really I I think it's a incredibly correct approach to this but let me put a pure D5 hat on for a second and say how would you respond to the question of well you know defies around accessibility and democratization of finance and completely open and transparent networks that anyone in any part of the world with a mobile phone should be able to gain access to and you're somehow restricting that not not you but anyone that builds a permission sort of Entry exit point system is is it restricting defy or do you think it's the the correct and only way to approach it difficult question I think the best analogy to answer this question is to look back at the the phone system do you remember the Nokia yeah 3310 days it's a closed system that's that's like a traditional banking services it's a closed system right Innovations come come from the top down the CEOs and all we can think about is three things right the phone can call people can send SMS and can play a snake game and that's the end of the innovation and then we have this iPhone system where you know Steve Jobs invented an open system but regulated open system right uh we have this application store on the iPhone right the only invention of Steve Jobs was an iPhone and he never has to invent again right the rest of the world people every corner around the world uh can think you know and invent invent new things for him now an iPhone can call a taxi now an iPhone can you know send food to your home can find your date you know can I don't know send money across Innovation comes from anyone anywhere but in a regulated manner yeah and it is Nokia changing the world or iPhone changing the world right we can change the world like an iPhone where we allow D5 to go you know with all these Innovations open system but obviously you have a regulated apps like Apple Store version that's a very good that's a very good analogy that's a very good I really like that but and let me so let me last you another question that sort of it's not exactly the same question or attaches to the same sort of concept um the the interactive um let's call it payment rails uh between or in the let's call it the web free exchange defy Universe um everyone talks about stable coins um that there are the core sort of payment system or network of of of That World um we also hear a lot about cbdc's and you've been involved a bit around that Etc do you see that in similar ways do you see cbdc's taking over stablecoin infrastructure do you see them existing side by side do you see like key differences between them where where do you where do you see the future in that in that in that context oh I think they complement each other because we will eventually move towards full interoperability of payment systems um if you look I mean the Internet space was a good example right before the internet arrives communication used to be restricted and in in in a closed system right you you all the television channels are restricted you need to get a license radio channels you know being monitored you know by the governments um you don't have the freedom to communicate to share information but once we have this tcpip protocol Internet Protocol the web 2 stuff right it democratizes communication right it democratizes information so now you have the freedom to choose which application you want to communicate on I know you you guys use WhatsApp here we use line in Thailand somebody uses Facebook Messenger someone you prefer Skype somebody prefer Microsoft teams we have the freedom to to choose which you know applications you want to communicate on same with the value exchange industry before it's a closed system like banking is regulated right credit cards um their own and there are only a few options to exchange value but you know blockchain is going to democratize value in the same manner that the internet democratizes information sharing so people will have the freedom to choose which platform they want to exchange value on right um so you know whether it is cbdc's or stable coins or Bitcoin protocols eventually eventually we will have full full interoperability like I don't know like now you are you can upload the say this podcast on YouTube I can also copy and paste this video file on Facebook on Instagram on on Tick Tock we have four interoperability even though Facebook has a different is a different owner to I don't know it's tick tock or Instagram or Facebook they have different owners different companies but the files the information is with we can exchange the information with phone's interoperability now and same with values you know if you're on cbdc and if if I say imagine I think in the next wave in-game assets would be huge imagine a 13 year old collecting swords in a game and he he gets hungry he walks over to Burger King he can wire his swords in-game assets right and when he transfer the swords it will automatically convert into whatever values that Burger King wants Burger King coins Burger King coins cbdc BTC the recipient doesn't need to know what the sender like what value the sender send in they just know that oh it hits my wallet with this format that I want yeah with full interoperability right we all the flows would be humanized do you think do you think top that I mean stable coins are I mean they are built on open networks and cbdc's um we don't quite know yet but I mean they are effectively forms of programmable money to an extent like there could be situations where cbdcs are restricted by how much can be transferred across a particular border or how much can be whole held by an individual so it has other programmability that I expect will be introduced in a much more closed system um whilst stablecoin networks are much more open in that country do you agree with that um you know like internet intranet and Extranet they can coexist yeah right and to have full interoperability technology it doesn't have to lie on just rely on decks decentralized exchange protocol The Exchange could be the technology to to have full interoperability between the closed system safety at ocbdc to an open system right we could be the Gateway with the interoperability technology no I I and by the way I mean I not to talk too much about it but definitely from our perspective it was Apple perspective marrying the two is is critical we see that as fundamental the interaction of a blockchain based payment system like usdc and your bank account uh your USD bank account that that is something that obviously we've developed to bring So Married marry the two together bringing together the old new wishes I think it's very exciting um but let me let me ask you one other question um because I've seen and read and people follow developments that are happening all over the world um I think there's been some Focus points in some parts of the world I think Singapore would be one Hong Kong slightly different direction um there were some uh public commentary not that longer in Singapore but potentially I'm not going to say restrict but there's a concern around retail access to retail user access to the ecosystem there's risk there's volatility risk um Hong Kong to a very different direction originally it was institution only now that that is also changing where do you see generally speaking the world moving in that in that context do you think that making a user aware of the risk let the buyer beware they're aware of what they're acquiring is enough or will you see authorities try to restrict retail access to the ecosystem more and more are there other ways you think that that will happen or will be developed what are your thoughts generally on that um we need more education restriction or Banning technology doesn't work yeah completely agree you know it's I mean it works on Theory but but not not it's not feasible it's not practical so and we see that the previous boom right in the past 2013-17 booms 21 boom uh were driven by retail investors and I don't think they will stop especially from the operator we see more and more retail onboarded every year right um but I believe the next wave is going to be driven by institutional investors so I think I think we will have both retail and institutional investors entering the space if not even to the extent that some of the countries reserved right central banks uh Reserve currency would be pegged in Bitcoin right Bitcoin could be one of the countries Reserve now we have the SDR right the special drawing Rights created in 1969 by the IMF you know the IMF coin yeah weighted average of the five basket of currencies right we have gold and and I think it's inevitable that we are moving towards a Bitcoin as another soil value not just institutional not just for retail but at the country's level I mean I'd really hope that that that does happen um and but it raises another question in my head and I wanted to ask you specifically giving your experience um in in Thailand we're seeing a lot today um there are a lot of pressure points emerging in different parts of the world very publicly in the US Europe to an extent different different parts of the world are thinking about how digital asset or crypto ecosystems are allowed to interact with existing Financial Services ecosystems out primarily the banking world and that's creating some big pressure points certainly on USD rails Etc what what is the position in Thailand of the central bank or commercial Banks do they see this as a regulated industry that they need to facilitate and support are there also concerns that are emerging in Thailand I'm interested because we'll have listeners from different parts of the world that have very different concerns around how their local banks I'm curious to hear about how things have developed in Thailand um to be honest Central Bankers around the world do not like Bitcoin they do not like cryptocurrencies right but they also understood that you cannot simply ban the technology right it's not it's not feasible it's not practical to ban so people start to talk about governance more and more even at the global stage at Davos right it's clear that Central Bankers do not like cryptocurrencies but everyone understood that you have to live with it you have to technology will evolve right evolve anyways you you cannot stop the Innovations to happen you can only push the Innovation to happen elsewhere and come back and you know serve you um later um and but you're going to lose the opportunity as a country so they talk about governance instead of banning more and more and recently with the war people realize that you know Swift can be weaponized right um and obviously I think everyone is looking to de-risk and looking for alternatives um you know and blockchain Technology could be an alternative ways just like those people in the Argentina Venezuela right Bitcoin helps them to keep store their wealth as an alternative so I think you know with Swift and the war happening it's clear that we need a global payment system that should not be used as a weaponized payments you know and that that I I I completely understand but but then like from your perspective as a Thai uh registered regulated platform in terms of the the local Thai banks that support they do support you they are remain open to that business and interactive completely right we have to to separate into two sides if you talk about commercial Banks yes you know they can't wait to do to innovate and to explore right this industry because they know is the future of that industry we cannot stick to paper money forever like how are we gonna meet Net Zero for example this is like a basic question right we emit 52 billion tons per year and we need to get to zero right Net Zero I think within the next 10 20 years and fossil fuel accounts for only 26 of the 52 billion tons and during covet we stopped flying we stop all the restaurants hotels and we still emit 50 billion tons so that means we have to reduce every dimension of Our Lives we have to we have to have green clothes you know fabric green plastic green green cement you know electricity car we cannot keep killing trees for paper money right it's obvious that money would be digital it's the future of their industry and what about the two billion people that are currently unbanked because the traditional Banks banking systems the cost is too high the capex Opex cost of opening Bank branches armor tracks to move money around so they know this is where the world is heading um and they want to be in but they can't right on the Central Bank banking side right they don't encourage because they have different kpis here right if you understand them if if you look uh at each entity in terms of their hip yeah you understand the SEC more because their main kpi is investors protection that's why in some countries they're not allowed retail investors to to trade if you look at commercial Banks their kpi is to thrive and survive in the fast changing world right and if you look at the central banks they they care about financial stability so obviously they don't want customers deposits or infrastructures of the countries to be playing with the newest technology first because they care about financial stability um Capital control right monetary policy Effectiveness imagine if everyone is using Bitcoin there's no monetary intervention with Fiat they cannot control the interest rate they cannot control the inflation so everyone has different kpis but I think the keys the key is we need a conductor to make sure that all the musician plays the same song as one country one kpi one Thailand one you know one region strong that I mean I and I really hope that that can happen I mean it's great to hear that there is that sort of approach from the commercial banks in in Thailand as well um particularly given what we're seeing in different parts of the world but let me ask you a couple of almost I think close to final questions but um there's a lot of activity in lots of parts of the world Southeast seizures One Thailand absolutely where do you see the next five years in terms of adoption numbers or raids we hear a lot about um play to earn games we hear a lot about unregulated nft ecosystems as as well we have your thousand percent growth rates per annum that hopefully will continue um lots of different things are happening there are new protocols new infrastructure developing new Concepts all of the time what's your what's going to be the winner over the next uh five years where do you see the biggest uh Focus or area of development what do you think Asia Southeast asean region in particular there are a few and there are a few reasons why because right now we are living in a fragmented world right there's a decoupling going on between China and the US Russia and Ukraine right not just left and right but also Global North and Global South divide inequality right supply chain uh separated are fragmented by post-covet right if you see there is this clear Trend where all the Chinese stocks are being delisted in the New York Stock from the New York style exchange NASDAQ and re-listed in Hong Kong right um and it's clear that the world is not like the same as the the previous world where we we see you know globalization is is wins for everyone um we're moving towards the de-globalization um fragmented world asean we are the one that swings the votes right we are the neutral ground we don't pick the sides we we don't have the Aging population issues everyone mostly you know in the Philippines in in Indonesia the average age of working population is less than 30 years old right we are rich in natural resource right um you know 16 or uh we are we are only able to map 16 of the ocean right the other like 84 uh and undiscovered a lot of hidden resources there to untapped and they need stability investors need stability they don't want to invest in China you know with the 5D us decoupling or Global North Global South with the digital divide um they will look at asean as a the new s-curve right after 2024 we will see an unprecedented unprecedented uh amount of investment coming into the Southeast Asian region because of various factors but also Legacy is not a good thing you know Legacy banking system Legacy law asean had nothing built I mean but we had something built but but not as deep rooted as the advanced Nation yeah I agree right there were there will be less people lobbying around because they need to make their money back on the initial investment previous investment the sun cost right we can leapfrog with the latest technology so I think the next growth is definitely in Asia and then and then so and if that does happen or hopefully it will happen for you guys as well what what would you say are the biggest risks or the biggest blockers or the biggest issues that could could restrict that level of growth in the Asian region um maybe two two things um one is a as in specific is rules of law you know rules of law in democracy democratization uh democracy countries are going down everywhere especially in Asia so we need a good rules of law you know because most of the country is a military run to be honest right but to be do we have a thriving business we need you know fairness and good good business practice and governance right and the second issue uh obstacle would be regulations how do we fix the standardization how do we strike the balance between moving fast and breaking things and protecting the investors the right balance right yeah I completely agree um so all this is all um extremely interesting what one one other thing I'm going to ask you one final question before I do something else but um pick up you guys dominant force in that in that area what are your next steps are you moving out to other parts of the world what what are the natural sort of growth steps for you guys yeah big cup is the biggest blockchain digital assets ecosystem in Thailand yeah I would say 99 baggage we have conquered conquered Thailand right and the the next phase is to become a regional company a group of companies so we hope to expand our products and services beyond beyond Thailand uh we're looking we're eyeing Southeast Asian region as the new market and I don't think we're going to be dominant in Europe or in other places because we have we believe in this thesis that after 2024 that's where the biggest growth lies which is in Asia well that that that that does sound fantastic and that sounds very exciting I really you know hope you guys can do that and I hope that we can be on board with you as that develops as well and support you along the way um were very very different obviously um but there are lots of things as you know that we're exploring and I'm very excited about that as well I'm going to conclude things with one uh one quote that I I read of yours and I'm going to read it just because it was it was really fantastic and it was on a public social media post of yours and you said um a voice is not a measurement of value beyond the goals we set we'll make mistakes and fall short put ourselves out in the battlefield experience a thrill of Victories endure challenges and give our all for a noble cause and learn from our failures and I think that's really really strong message and one I really support um we'll all do that in our very different ways but it's an extremely strong message and for us it's been wonderful having you here a real pleasure and I do hope we can continue to talk and explore things moving forward but thank you for your time thank you for having me here [Music]