Doctrine of Covenants 88 is God saying, "You don't comprehend all things, but you can. I want you to. I'm going to help you do this." In that light, who wouldn't want to obey the laws of God? Yeah. The laws of God are just understanding how things work. And so, we follow the laws of God because he has more knowledge than we do, and we want to get to where he is. Focus on that and everything's going to work out well. You'll be preserved. You'll be perfected. You'll be sanctified by the same and achieve what the father is trying to do with us. Love people and help people. Most people are aware, at least on a rudimentary level, of the teachings of Jesus Christ, but they just don't follow them. And that creates the turmoil that we see in the world. We get the big picture, our day-to-day life becomes easier to manage and figure out. Hello, Scott. Hello, Casey. Welcome back to part two of section 88. With section 88, there is just so much content that we didn't know if we could fit it all into one episode. And so we did the context and content and now we're going to do the controversies and the consequences. And the other thing I got to say is sometimes the controversies are like, well, how do we know Joseph Smith was in this place at this time? Sort of historical controversies. There's no like little historical things in section 8. It's all big huge ideas, cosmology, theology, big big ideas. If you missed context and content, go back and check out our previous episode. Then come join us over here. [Music] Where to begin? You've raised some good questions and I want to queue you up for one that I think will be really meaty. So section 88 talks a lot about law. Law in different kingdoms, celestial law, terrestrial law, tles law. But this goes back to a basic question that sort of exists in all scripture which is is God the author of the law or is God subject to the law? Does the law exist independent of God? So how would you answer that question? What's the relationship between God and law? Yeah, that's such a good question. And no revelation in the Doctrine of Covenants hits this as square on as does section 88. uh just do a word search for instance and you'll see in this revelation like how many times the word law comes up. I mean for this question I'm drawn to verse 42 that says and again verily I say unto you he hath given a law unto all things by which they move their times their seasons. And so this idea that God is a lawgiver is very very clear here in section 88. But then you have like the Book of Mormon like Elma 42 that says that if God tried to overpower justice with his mercy without providing any sort of atoning context then God would cease to be God like he would somehow be violating law and would cease to be God. And so I think that's kind of raised the question, right? Is God the author of law? Is he subject to law? And to add another wrinkle into this, in Nauvoo, Joseph Smith will teach that God was once a man like us who lived on an earth somewhere and who became a God just like we all need to learn how to become like God. Section 88, that theme is here about becoming like God. Uh what's absent, what was unique in Nauvoo is when Joseph said, "This is how God became God by advancing from one degree to another, from exaltation to exaltation, from glory to glory until he has become what he is." And so we need to do that too. There's kind of this complication of like if God's the author of law then what came before God? Like didn't God follow law to become God? And so you see how it gets a little bit twisty. So I think something that's being expressed here in section 88 that's really helpful is this idea that Christ by his condescension in the early verses of this section. He descended below all things in that he comprehended all things that he might be in all and through all things the light of truth. In other words, this is a condition that Christ obtained. Right? And we can assume the father also obtained it eventually where they tapped into this in all and through allness where they then become author of law into spaces that don't have that law, don't have that ordering. So if you think about the vastness of like the universe, if you think about the vastness of like all space that's out there, there are places that are unorganized. There are places that are darkness. There are places that don't seem to have law or order. Right? What God seems to do according to section 88 is to give law. He gives law. He gives life. I'm looking at verse 13. Uh he gives life to all things which is law. Uh light, life, law. This is what God does. He infuses life and light and law, order into chaos, darkness, uh, disorder, right? He's he's an ordering being. And so, I know this is pretty deep, but what my brain does with section 88 helping me is to say, okay, God is the author of law in the sense that he creates ordered spaces and gives them law and light and truth. Therefore, he authors it in that area, right? Like if if you author a book, Casey, it's not like you invented the English language, right? But you ordered words in such a way that you created something new in a space that had not ever been created by the way that you ordered it with your intelligence and by using certain grammatical laws and and you know the gifts that you've been given. You're now the author of a particular book. Seems like God is doing that out in the universe. He's authoring things by law, by light, by truth. Was he always that way? Joseph Smith will say no. in Nauvoo Hills and this is controversial doctrine I understand in Christianity. Yeah. He became what he is. And guess what? We're the same kind of being as him and we can become like he was if we'll follow the laws. And section 88 is the Lord saying, "I have given you the law of the celestial kingdom. And if you'll abide that law, you'll receive the fullness. You'll become like me." In section 93 is going to riff off this same theme and say, "Obey the laws and you'll become like me." And what what will that mean? Section 132, I'm grabbing a couple verses in other sections, but section 132 will say, then you'll be above all things. All things will become subject to you, right? You will then become the law, if you will. Now, you can give your own light and love and order and and truth and and goodness. You can infuse that as an eternal being into spaces that are still unordered, that are dark. You can start to order things. You you'll become an author of law yourself. So that's that's how I see it. I know not everyone would would probably agree with me, but I think section 88 like is turning a key in my brain that like helps me make sense of all of this. You said some of that stuff so casually, Scott, that we need to acknowledge that this set of ideas introduced in these revelations, in particular section 88 and section 93 are either considered the most blasphemous thing you've ever heard, cuz I've literally had people from other churches like tell me this is just out and out blasphemy, right? you've ever heard because it's God getting into the nuts and bolts of how he does things. Now, I've always taken passages like Alma 42 as Alma sort of really really upping the importance of justice in God's eyes. And he's not describing a real situation that would happen. It's a hypothetical. Could God go against the laws of justice? If so, he would cease to be God. I don't think that that's a real thing that's ever going to happen. But it does tell us that God operates within certain rules. And I loved your analogy that like just because I wrote a book doesn't mean that I invented the English language. And it seems like uh section 88 and section 93 and other things are setting us up with this idea that God is the grand organizer of the universe. That the universe consists of these eternal things. Eternal matter is eternal. that's always existed and will always exist. Intelligence has always existed and God takes them and orders them and and thereby brings law. So I guess in that sense God is the creator of law because he brings law to things that are disordered. At the same time I think our position would be that God is using the natural laws of the universe that have always been there and operates within them. And it seems like in section 8, what he's trying to really get across to us is that if we learn these laws and as we progress and gain more and more knowledge, we can do what he does. That's why getting education, being a diligent learner is such a big theme in section 88. But I don't know. I I mean, one of my push backs would be this idea that God is God progressing? Like Elder Makoni posed a hypothetical once where he said if God is progressing is he going to discover something that destroys the universe. And this verse in section 88 hit me differently this time. This is verse 41. He comprehendeth all things and all things are before him and all things are round about him and he is above all things and in all things and is through all things and is round about all things and all things are by him and of him even God forever and ever. So if we start to place limits on God, it seems like at a certain point we are going against what the text says because the text is granting him omniscience here. And it seems like omnipotence too in the sense that within the law he can do anything that he wants to do essentially. But whether he can't break the law or chooses not to it's it's moot. Like it doesn't matter. He's not going to. So really we can't answer that question until we get a little bit more light and knowledge. Yeah. And I I think you know Latter-day Saints are used to pushing against the common Christian idea that God created stuff ex nahilo you know which means out of nothing. And we push back and like matter has always existed etc. But I'm not I'm not sure we fully like explored the implications of what that means. The idea that there's always been pre-existing stuff that predated God's creative interactions with it. Right? When we understand that, then we we cannot say that there aren't conditions that exist outside of God. This is really major, right? And and when you add to that this idea that Joseph taught in Nauvoo that God was once a man like us and lived on an earth somewhere, right? Then we know that the only conclusion that is left to us is to say that there are a lot of conditions that exist outside of God. And yet you just read verse 41 that says he's in all things and through all things and everything is now round about him. And I just feel really comfortable saying that that's a condition that he obtained and now he's the author of law. Now he is in all things through all things. And guess what? That's something that he's invited us into to become part of that. And we'll explore that more in section 132. But if you look over in verses like 19, 20, 21, like he's saying the same thing that we become gods and then we're above all things and we become part of this in all and through all group. This is super deep theology, but we too will become authors of law in the way that God is. So I I think we're we're we're saying something very similar to each other. I think it's impossible for him to cease to be God. The Elma 42 challenge is a hyperbole. I think to say that God was always God and therefore he is outside the conditions of mankind and he's totally other than us. This is a common Christian belief. He created things ex nilo out of nothing. He is totally other than us. He's an other kind of being than us. Uh ontologically we're different from each other. Like section 88 and other uh sections of the doctrine of covenants and the teachings of Joseph Smith just push really hard against that and say that's not right. God became what he is and he's given us the same laws whereby we can become what he is. And so, man, it's it's rich. It's deep. And to me, it's beautiful. As blasphemous as it might sound, I could see how some people think it is blasphemous, especially if you have like these creedle ideas of what God is. Any rate, yes, it's not something we need to worry about. You don't need to stress about God breaking the law and destroying the universe or God learning something that will destroy the plan of salvation. And maybe these higher level questions can't be answered until we get more knowledge from God. But there is this great relationship between God and the universe and that they're not in opposition to each other. The universe is like an instrument that God has just learned to play like a virtuoso and he knows exactly how everything works. Therefore, he can do exactly what he needs to do. And the great revelation seems to be that he doesn't use this to punish or hurt people. He's not jealous of the power that he has. He's sharing it willingly with everybody that wants to obtain it. It seems like he really strongly desires us to have the same knowledge. And that's a characteristic of God presented in the Doctrine of Covenants and the Revelations of Joseph Smith that I can really get on board with that God is trying to lift everybody up as high as he possibly can and isn't worried about, you know, being the only sovereign of the universe, which he is, but he's just as willing to share his power with um Jesus Christ and with us and with anybody that's willing to do what it takes uh to obtain that level. That's a beautiful idea that I really do like within our teachings. And that's right here in section 88 107, isn't it? Right. Where he says that in the end when the saints shall be filled with his glory and receive their inheritance, they will be made equal with him. That's what the text says. We'll be made equal with God. And uh he wants that. This is not like you said, he's not guarding that. But we do need to be ready for we need to be capacitated to be able to handle that, right? You can't you don't want to give God's power to a 12-year-old. You got to be ready. You don't give the car keys to your eight-year-old, right? There's a certain capacity you've got to have in order to be trusted with that kind of power. And that's exactly what the laws of the celestial kingdom are about, right? It's preparing us to be trusted and capacitated to be entrusted with the power of God. Could I bring up another question that's I think related to this? Yes. Yeah, bring it up. We talked about this a little bit before we started recording, but it's this question of like, is God capriccious? Like, is he is he fickle? Is he arbitrary? Is he erratic in in his behavior? And I bring this up in this context sometimes as I uh talk with people who wonder about ordinances and the logic behind like for instance, let's let's use temple marriage because that's a juicy one. Like the question comes up like why would God let one couple be together for all eternity with each other just because they were married in the temple. But another couple who lives just the same way, right? They love each other. They're committed. They're faithful to each other. They love God just as much as that first couple who's married in the temple, but they don't get married in the temple. Okay? They get married on the beach or something like that, right? That's such a small technicality. Like, are they really not going to be allowed to be in the celestial kingdom? Are they not going to be exalted because they didn't get married in the right building? Uh they didn't get married by someone that God has authorized to marry them, you know? But I think section 88 is like pushing back hard against that. First of all, we have this whole system worked out to where um is it capriccious? Well, it's something that God commands. You know, he says you have to get baptized in order to inherit the kingdom of God. And secondly, it reflects a shallow understanding of Latter-day Saint theology because there is a way for everybody like that couple that got married on the beach, if they really love each other and if they're willing to make covenants with God, will have the chance to receive the covenants. So, if the question just is, is God capriccious? Is he fickle? Does he have like little tiny demands? I would say no. He's opened a way for everybody to receive the gospel. And I think maybe uh Terrell Given once sort of lifted a corner on this thought for me and I just pursued it. And uh I think section 88 is brilliant at at talking about this. And and the the idea is that God is in a universe. He is in a place that has pre-existing matter, things that have been forever, right? He doesn't create everything out of nothing. There's stuff that's always existed. There are conditions that have always existed. And there seems to be something real in the universe that would impede like our reunion with God. It would impede our our ability to be uh sealed with our spouse and married to our spouse forever. There's something that seems to be like it's standing in the way of eternalizing our relationships. And I think what Terrell Given uh called it was cosmic entropy, which I I like that that term cosmic entropy. Like this idea that everything in the universe, like everything on this earth is structured in a way that it leads toward disorder, right? Eventually disintegration. Like every beautiful house you've seen is going to become dilapidated if we don't do something about it, right? Uh every piece of fruit as beautiful as you know get the best most beautiful fruit and just a couple days later it starts to get mushy. Fast forward a couple weeks and it can become unrecognizable because of the disorder, the decay, the entropy. our bodies as much as we work out and exercise and try to eat well and take care of ourselves like entropy is working on us man like I feel it in my body then we are all in this slow like decline of dissolution and decay and death that we can't stop like none of us can stop it that's just like the nature of things God's not the author of death God is the author of light death just is disorder just is cosmic entropy is just like happening And so God as the opposite of that uh we looked up the word the opposite of entropy is negropy. Uh this idea of like ordering things going from chaos to order. Like that's what God does. He infuses life where there's death. Like the resurrection is like the most beautiful example of God's negotropic nature, right? Our bodies decay and die. When God infuses his light and life into our dead bodies, they are quickened and they are made alive again, right? And we we get put in a condition that scripture calls eternal life. And eternal life is by definition outside the scope of entropy. Like entropy can no longer like cause resurrected bodies to decay and die. Why? Because God has infused his order, light, law into our bodies through the atonement of Christ and the resurrection and the deep, you know, whatever is happening there metaphysically. like what he was able to accomplish was to to pull us out of the entropy that would forever capture us, right? Same thing with relationships. Like if we want our marriages to last forever, like the truth is our our the natural course of our marriages is going to go to dissolution. And again, it's at death. Death is going to make our our marriages null and void. Unless God is allowed to infuse his power, light, life, law into our marriage. And section 132 talks like this, by the way. Section 132 says that anything that's not sealed by the law of God will in the resurrection come to not like everything's going to be shaken and destroyed. That's a a great way scripturally to talk about entropy, right? Everything will be shaken and destroyed. Uh I I recently visited Rome. things that were glorious and majestic and amazing. These amazing temples and buildings that they built are now just like pillars and dust and rubble. Like everything will be shaken and destroyed because of entropy except those things which are sealed in the everlasting covenant. So this is a long way to say you know that that ordinances are not capricious. God asking us to obey his laws is not fickle. What he's inviting us to do is, as verse 34 says, to obey the law so that we can be preserved by it. Think about our marriages being preserved, our our bodies being capacitated for his celestial glory. Preserved by law, perfected by law, he says, and sanctified by the same. So these laws of the everlasting covenant, we're being invited into willingly. We have to like volunteer to submit to the laws of God so that he can now infuse his power, his light, his life, his law and take us out of the entropy natural cycle so that our marriages, our bodies, this world that's going to be sanctified can be in a condition called eternal life. I would just simplify that and say the opposite of entropy is God. Entropy is the gradual breaking down of all things and God is the great organizer of things. In Latter-day Saint theology, God is the opposite of entropy. That's what is his defining characteristic is that he makes things. He creates things. And it seems like it runs contrary to the way we see the universe operate, right? Like one of the biggest uh questions is well, how is this all here? like everything that exists in the universe runs with this precision and this guess genius design that seems to run contrary to the idea of entropy. It puts me in mind of uh when one apostle I think it was other maki was asked can you name one empirically measurable miracle that god has performed and he said the creation of the earth doesn't make any sense based on the laws of entropy and yet it's here and it continues and god gives these laws basically that empower it to continue upwards and upwards the other problem I see is we do try to comprehend what we take as god's capricciousness from our limited perspective. Like one of my favorite books in the Old Testament is the book of Job. And the book of Job is answering the question or trying to answer the question of why do bad things happen to good people? And at the end of the book, God appears to Job and gives a speech that's several chapters long, but basically the the substance of the speech is, "Do you really comprehend all the things that I do and see things the way that I see them?" And I think once we have that angle, which is in section 88, God saying, "I comprehend all things, like I've got the whole picture here, so I understand why when something bad happens, how it fits into the plan of things, and you just don't." CS Lewis talked about it this way. He said, you know, the opposite of good isn't evil. Evil still has good qualities to it, right? Like take Satan. He's evil, but you know, he's smart and he's persuasive. Those are all good qualities. He said the opposite of good is nothing. It's total entropy, total disillusionment into disorder. And the scriptures, especially section 88, do suggest that God is a great orderer of things. That the opening passage in Genesis is that there was water, which was the most disorganized thing in early Hebrew could imagine. Like the scariest possible environment to be in for an early Hebrew was the middle of the sea. God comes along and takes that disorder and orders it and starts to put it into self- sustaining, self-replicating systems uh that continue. And so, yeah, I I I think that's a cool idea to say God doesn't ask us to do these things and say that we're getting blessings because he's being capriccious. He's he's just basically saying, "Hey, if you do this, this fixes this." Because he understands on a higher level how the universe works than we do. And any perception of capricciousness on God's part is our limited knowledge making a judgment when we don't have all the facts basically. But he does. And he emphasizes that again and again from the from the book of Job uh to section 88 of the doctrine of covenants. What section 88 adds is the book of Job ends on a discordant note where Job just basically has to go, "Oh, okay. I don't see things the way you do." And then Job is blessed. So it does end on a happy note. But Doctrine of Covenants 88 is God saying, "You don't comprehend all things, but you can. I I want you to. I'm going to help you do this," which is a much brighter, much more positive, much more progressive note to end on. Yeah. And section 88 is giving us a peak into how God works. Um, but there's much much uh left to comprehend in that vein of like thinking about how ordinances and covenants are the way that God invites us to like enter into law and commit to live law. Like I was thinking of how the family proclamation states this like so breathtakingly simply like this paragraph three like listen to these two sentences with what we just talked about in mind with section 88. It just says this so simply. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. I like the word enables there. And then it says, sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally. God is an enabler. He's one who's trying to make things possible uh to help us beat those other forces that are pulling against that that are pulling against our eternal life, our eternalized relationships. And uh in that light, who wouldn't want to obey the laws of God? Yeah. The laws of God are just understanding how things work. And so we follow the laws of God because he has more knowledge than we do and we want to get to where he is. How does he say it in verse 21? be sanctified through the law which I've given unto you, even the law of Christ. There it is. There's there's the game plan. Focus on that and everything's going to work out well. You'll be preserved. You'll be perfected. You'll be sanctified by the same and achieve what the father is trying to do with us. All right, Casey, I got another question for you. It's a much smaller question compared to what we've been talking about, but I think it's one that people wonder about, which is like these verses that say that the earth abides the law of the celestial kingdom. Therefore, it will be quickened and become a sanctified earth. Like, does that mean the earth is like alive somehow? Like, how does it live the law of the celestial kingdom? I have had students come up and ask me that question because not only here in section 88 where it says the earth abides the law of the celestial kingdom. Uh, but in places like the book of Moses where the earth literally speaks to Enoch and says, "I'm pain because of the wickedness of my children." you know, meaning men and women. Now, I think you can attribute what is written in the book of Moses as Enoch being poetic basically that I don't know if the earth literally spoke to him, though I'm open to the idea that it might have within a visionary context, right? At the same time too, if we're defining alive, yeah, the earth is alive. It's a living system that perpetuates itself. Is it conscious? I guess is the question that we're trying to ask here. There's an interesting case to be made there. For instance, some prophets have pointed out that the earth, you know, was a spirit before it was physical, that it was immersed in water um during the flood of Noah, that it's been baptized, that it will be baptized with fire. Section 88 uses the language that it's going to die and uses language that it's going to be resurrected. It's this whole wonderful theology we have of environmental salvation. Like I went to a conference once and there was a Catholic scholar there and she came up and just expounded on how awesome she thought the Doctrine of Covenants was uh because it it teaches this idea that Jesus doesn't just save humans that Jesus saves the entire system of creation. That is your dog going to be resurrected? Yeah, absolutely. So will trees and plants and animals the whole system gets saved. That said, when we try to discuss the question of consciousness, which is, you know, are we aware of ourselves and can we imagine possibilities where we become better? I don't know if I'd apply that to the earth. I don't think the text is saying that here. Like, uh, verse 25, the earth abideth the law of the celestial kingdom. Yes, the earth lives the celestial law, which makes it sound like the earth has agency, therefore is conscious, and makes decisions. It seems like it explains what abiding law of the celestial kingdom is in the same verse. There's a comma and then it says for it fillth the measure of its creation and transgress not the law. It seems like abiding law of the celestial kingdom means just doing what you were built to do. Filling the measure of your creation. I don't have to say that my ice maker has consciousness because it makes ice. No, it's just doing what it was designed to do. Now apply this to a human. What do you have to do to abide the law of the celestial king? Just do what you were built to do. Love people and help people. And if it's possible in this life to to multiply and replenish and be a good steward over things, then he does go on to say, wherefore it shall be sanctified, notwithstanding, it shall die. It shall be quickened again and shall abide the power by which it is quickened and the righteous shall inherit it. So again, uh, you brought this up earlier in the discussion, but this idea that we're going to heaven runs contrary to section 88, which is that what Jesus did is creating heaven. It's taking the earth into its glorified and sanctified state. And I know that it might not sound heavenly to say you're going to live in Idaho for all eternity, or I'm going to live in in Utah, but Idaho is pretty great. And the earth right now in its mortal state, its probationary state. Imagine what it's like in its celestial state. So I don't think we have to say the earth has consciousness. Is it alive? Yes. Will it be resurrected? Yes. Does the atonement of Jesus Christ cover everything? Yes. Does that mean that you can go off and just run roughshot with the earth and do whatever you want to do because Jesus is eventually going to heal it? That'd be saying the same thing about your own body. like I can do whatever I want to do with my body because eventually I'll be resurrected. No, you've been asked to be a steward over your body and over the earth and to the degree you take care of it, you'll receive blessings. Even if Jesus is eventually going to fix it, you have an obligation to be a good steward right now. Yeah. No, that's great. In fact, if you're talking about why mankind was created, like filling the measure of our creation, like in Genesis 1, when the Lord says that we are to be fruitful and multiply, then he says, "Replenish the earth and subdue it and have dominion over it, righteous dominion." There's this there's this sense of stewardship over the earth in the moment of our creation in the story of Genesis 1, right? So, what is the measure of mankind's creation? well, righteous dominion over this beautiful earth and to multiply and replenish and of our own kind and to to be really benevolent caretakers and overseers of God's good earth, his image bearers into all of creation. When we do that, we abide, you know, part of the law by which we were created, what we were created to do. In fact, I think if I understand scripture right, Casey, and I understand the temple ordinances, I understand what book of Revelation is saying, like we were made to become kings and queens and priests and priestesses to rule over creation with God. And so, this is all part and parcel of where the plan of salvation is going. It's not just individuals taken up to heaven, but it's individuals sanctified with a sanctified world where we abide together in co-un with creation forever. Like it's a really beautiful rich thought when we talk about salvation. Great picture that paints on this point. Casey, can I just bring up another controversy? Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. The plan of salvation is that this earth is going to become sanctified as a place where we're going to dwell forever and God the Father is going to come here and this is going to be it. Right? He doesn't give us commandments to be tested so we can see if we can qualify to go back and live with him again. This way is so beautiful. It's so scripturally rich. Uh it it's it's sermon on the mount, right? It's the meek inherit the earth. The goal is not to leave. The goal is to qualify to be here with the father and the son in the city, the celestial city to really fill the measure of our creation to rule and reign with God forever over this beautiful creation in its sanctified state. What if we talk about the plan of salvation more that way? What positive things could happen? You know, part of this is not a problem with the doctrine. It's a problem with the way we teach the doctrine. Part of it is we have to simplify things in order to make it more comprehensible. And you know, the idea that we go to heaven or that heaven is a place that is other than where we're at is probably something we've inherited from the rest of Christianity, right? Like we can't escape the environment that the church was organized in and the environment that we continue to live in. And unfortunately, the way that people still visualize heaven and hell is still sort of in the minds of modern Latter-day Saints. Now, we have a really, really amazing conception of the afterlife and how it works and where we're at. And sometimes we have to simplify it to communicate with other people of faith to be honest with you. But we probably could amongst ourselves do a better job talking about what these things say. I usually say this to my classes like the Book of Mormon is the here's what you need to survive in the last days. The Doctrine of Covenants is let's take this idea and explore it even further. Like it's the college course of the scriptures essentially. I'm with you. I think we need to do a better job explaining what heaven is because that informs what we do here on earth. And I've sometimes had people from other churches criticize us and say, "Well, we're not worried about the next life. We're worried about the here and now." Well, how you view the next life, if you really understand it, does impact what you do in the here and now. And Jesus gave us lengthy discussions on why the hereafter matters because he knew that principle that it would affect how we act in the here and now as well. We get the big picture. Our day-to-day life becomes easier to manage and figure out. Yeah. And you you mentioned that uh Latter-day Saints probably pick this up from other Christians and we kind of bring it in because that's the cultural context we live in. I was recently at a at a conference, a Christian conference where NT Wright, one of the preeminent New Testament scholars, was actually calling Christians out on this. He's done this a lot. You can see in his his writings, he says that's not a Christian idea. If you read the book of Revelation, this earth becomes heaven and God the father comes here. Like this is a theme in the book of Revelation as well. And he says that Christians got this from Plutarch, a Platonic philosopher, right? Pluto. like he's saying this is like Greek stuff that we've embied into Christianity because guess what? Christianity grew up in the world of the helanized, you know, Greek influenced culture of its day. And so we all just keep doing this from each other. And if we can just like NT Wright's done a good job of doing and we're trying to do here with Latter- Day Saint scriptures, like can we just pay attention to what the text is actually saying? Like what is the Lord revealing? And uh what if we just stayed really true to that? What difference uh could that make in our discussions and in the way we frame our existence here? Like I think it could be profound. It would be great if we could jettison all the cultural baggage we have and just start with the scriptures. You and I were together. We were with the scripture central team and we got into the hypothetical conversation of what if you just had to rebuild a society using just the Book of Mormon or using just the Doctrine Covenants. And everybody was kind of saying, well, the Book of Mormon, you know, has the basics. And you and I were the two that were kind of arguing you could build a pretty amazing society just from the Doctrine of Covenants. In fact, you'd solve poverty and hunger. You'd have a fleshed out view of the afterlife, of the world around us, where it comes from, why it matters. I mean, if we really could jettison all the cultural baggage and just rely on the scriptures, we'd probably be able to paint a much more hopeful picture than just you go to heaven and you play a harp while you're sitting on a cloud praising God eternally. No, there's real work to be done. All the scriptures testify of that. I had a student once who who left the church and he sent me an email like all of his problems with the church and one of the things he said and just kind of made me just shake my head. I'm like, "Oh man." He said, 'It doesn't make any sense how we talk about the plan of salvation, right? Why leave if the point was just to see if we could come back? You know, I'm just shaking my head like, oh man, that's such a right. It's a cultural view we sometimes have of the plan of salvation. Like what we just read in DNC88 is so much more beautiful and rich and amazing than that little caricature that is inaccurate. It's uninspiring, you know. Uh and for this particular student, you know, that was one of a litany of things. He's like, "This doesn't make any sense in the church." You know, I felt bad for him because he doesn't actually understand what the scriptures are really teaching. I think it's more satisfying the real picture, you know. Yeah, I agree. Let me bring up one more controversy. We touched upon this, but it's sort of a two-pronged question. One, I'm sort of dissatisfied with the description of the millennium in in all things, right? Like in the book of Revelation and in the Doctrine of Covenants in section 88, it's like Jesus comes, there's a resurrection, and then there's a thousand years of peace. And then at the end of the thousand years of peace, Satan is loosed for a short season and gathers his followers, and there's one last destruction. It is frustrating to me that we don't talk more about the millennium. And secondly, I have a second related question. How did these people at the end of the millennium rebel? I mean, they know everything, right? They grew up in a world where Jesus Christ rules and reigns. And so, how is it even possible that there's going to be some sort of war at the end of the millennium? How does Satan get his power back and describe it? What guidance would you give there? Oh, man. I mean, on your first first question about I wish we knew more about the millennium, I say amen. Uh, we do have one more spot we're coming up on, right? Section 101. The Lord gives a little deeper glimpse into what's going to happen in the millennium. So, we'll we're going to pause that. Uh, we'll wait till section 101, which by the way is in the midst of like great great distress for the saints who've been kicked out of uh Jackson County, Missouri. It's really fascinating. In the midst of their distress, the Lord says, "Let me give you a glimpse of the millennial day." And so anyway, we'll we'll we'll visit that when we get to section 101. Uh, is that okay, Casey, if we do that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As far as question two, man, I don't know. I've wondered about this, too. Like why would anybody rebel at the end of the millennium and join Satan's ranks and fight against Michael and his armies? Like that sounds like the ultimate in being an idiot, right? Like seriously, like you think you can beat Michael and his armies? You think that like why would you join the devil? He's like the ultimate loser. And I don't know. I I know President George Quch Canon, he once speculated. He said it seems like that Satan will be loosed at the end of the millennium because there will arise a generation who's willing to listen to him. As long as you're not willing to listen to him, he has no power over you. But as soon as you are willing to listen, then he starts to gain power. But that just pushes the question back one level, right? Which is why would they be willing to listen to him? Like why would anybody who's lived through the millennium be willing to listen to him? So, with that question, Case, I I'm just going to have to say a big fat I don't know. I don't know why. Uh, what do you think? To question one, why don't we know more about the millennium? I'm going to give the classic answer of why is fourth Nephi so short? You know, a lot of people read the Book of Mormon and go, how come fourth Nephi is one chapter? You know, that should be the good stuff. and and the answer I can't remember who gave it um and I'm paraphrasing is that well the formula to create fourth Nephi is in third Nephi the teachings of Jesus Christ create this perfect society that's described there and I would say maybe we're not told very much about the millennium because one one of the conditions of the millennium that's emphasized in the doctrine of covenants is that is when we do get all the answers and God can't give us the answers right now because we're not there And second that we already know the formula for how to create the millennium. Like how are we going to solve poverty? Well, we got the law of consecration. How are we going to solve society's ills? Well, we've got the teachings of Jesus Christ. The millennium is just everybody actually doing those things. Most people are aware, at least on a rudimentary level, of the teachings of Jesus Christ, but they just don't follow them. And that creates the turmoil that we see in the world. I read a book once where this guy was ranking like the top hundred people that ever lived and the guy was a secular scholar. He ranked Jesus number three. Muhammad was number one and Isaac Newton was number two. But his argument for ranking Jesus number three was really interesting which is he said Jesus contributed only one really original teaching. In other words, you can find everything that Jesus taught in all the different religions around the world. that his one idea that was really really compelling was and that isn't found anywhere else is love your enemies. And then this historian says, "If I thought anybody actually did that, I would rank Jesus number one, but nobody does it." And so he's number three in my book. Now again, this is a guy who doesn't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ or his atoning sacrifice. But yeah, I think if everybody lived what Jesus taught, we could have something pretty close to the millennium right now. I think you can see glimpses of it in in places where the gospel really is working the way that it's supposed to work. But that might be why we don't have very much information about it or why God skips over it is like I already told you how to do this so it would be a repeat. Now when it comes to the war at the end of the millennium again I'm astounded. The only thing I can say is it seems like this war because it parallels the war in heaven that's described also in the book of Revelation is created by a group of people who absolutely positively know the truth but choose to rebel against it anyway. And what's the sin that causes them to do this? President Benson said the sin that destroyed Lucifer was pride. It's that idea that you know you're wrong, but you keep fighting anyway and it's because you can't let your pride get the better of you. Like I think every single one of us, including me and you, cuz we've done this together, have gotten into an argument where at a certain point you knew you were wrong. But you don't stop arguing, right? You change tactics or you change the subject or you just like do a elementary school insult to the person. That's pride, right? And there will be people at the end of the millennium who absolutely positively know that it's all true and absolutely positively know that it all works also. They'll have seen the fruits of the gospel of Jesus Christ for a thousand years and they'll still choose to rebel against it. And that's why I can't remember who said this. Maybe it was Elder Manki believed that most of the sons of predition, most of the people that meet the conditions found in section 76 will be those at the end of the millennium. That the reason why there's only a handful of people we even talk about being sons of predition or children of predition would mean there's going to be a group of people that are absolutely 100% rebellious and not justified at all in being rebellious. They just want to rebel. agency and the way we understand and comprehend agency means that that's a real possibility that that could happen and that it sounds like that's what's going to happen. And that's why this battle at the end of the millennium parallels the battle fought in heaven which is you had a group of people in heaven who knew who was laying out the plan and knew that he was omnisient and knew that this was the only way to get things done but still rebelled. Why their pride at the end of the millennium? Same conditions here. And it's so ironic, right? Like like verse 115 here in section 88 says that Michael's going to overcome him. Speaking of the devil who seeketh the throne of him who siteth upon the throne. Lucifer and his gaggle of followers. They're seeking the throne of God. I say it's ironic because God wants to give us the throne. Like God wants us to be equal with him as we read previously, right? It's not that he he wants the wrong thing. He he wants to go about it in all the wrong ways. He he wants to be able to sit on the throne without abiding the laws that will get you to the throne. So it is it is deeply embedded in pride and like doing things my own way. What he said earlier uh the sons of predition become a law unto themselves. I'll do things my own way. Thank you very much. Like heaven be hanged, God be hanged. Like I don't I don't care about how they outline us how to do this. Like I'm going to I can do it my own way. That to me is just incredibly sad uh sad twisted irony. Not just sad and twisted, but it almost seems incomprehensible. But, you know, we've got to take ideas like agency and play them out mentally. As long as you believe in agency the way we do, yeah, there is a possibility that a person will totally completely absolutely misuse their agency. And we're talking rebellion when you know that you're wrong. That's the ultimate form of pride. That's the sin that destroyed Lucifer. And sadly, it sounds like that's the sin that's going to destroy a number of people at the end of the millennium. The good news is is it sounds like that's the final conflict. That's where everybody kind of lands where they need to land. Wow. What a downer note to end on for our controversy section, Casey. Well, I mean, and and after you know that's settled, then we move on, right? we we get into the real serious business of existence, which is to be joyful and to learn what it means to understand law and therefore become like God. There you go. There's there's the positive twist. Yes. Excellent. Awesome. Okay. Well, thank you. Great run through a couple controversies. Definitely not exhaustive. I'm sure there's more to explore here in section 88, but we will move on now to consequences. [Music] In addition to some of this really rich theology we've been talking about these great nuggets of light and truth we've learned to get glimpses into the character of God. I think we could summarize kind of the takeaways of this 141 verse revelation by saying that there are three major outcomes practical outcomes that flow from section 88. The first I would say is that church leaders were commanded to hold a solemn assembly in this revelation. uh it was in connection with that commandment to sanctify themselves so they could behold the face of God. Verse 68, right? And that's going to be a big deal. That's going to motivate them for several years. It's going to be one of the main motivational factors to building the temple in Kirtland so that they can hold their solemn assembly and behold the face of God. So that's huge. Uh the second is that they're commanded to organize the school of the elders or the school of the prophets to learn all they could learn to be as prepared as they could be to fulfill their commission from Christ to warn the nations before calamity comes. And then third is the house right uh they were commanded to build the Kirtland temple the house of God where among other things they could hold the solemn assembly where they could house the school of the prophets and as we're going to find out where keys would be restored huge implications with those keys uh for the salvation of the human family. So uh more to come on that point. But I would say that those are the three like major practical outcomes of section 88 that's going to motivate the saints for the next several years and five six years until the temple is complete. We talk a lot about the suffering of the saints, but we don't talk about the teachings that got them through the suffering. Right. And you can see Joseph Smith immediately doing what you just did, which is apply what he's just learned. on January 11th, 1833, Joseph Smith um sends practically this entire revelation to WW Phelps in Missouri included with a letter. And in the letter, it seems like he's already sort of saying, okay, here's here's how we're applying this. So, he opens a letter with a reference to Dr. Kevin 88 that we've already quoted a little bit, but let me read it here again. I send you the olive leaf which we have plucked from the tree of paradise, the Lord's message of peace to us. For though our brethren in Zion indulge in feelings towards us which are not according to the requirements of the new covenant, yet we have the satisfaction of knowing that the Lord approves of us and has accepted us and established his name in Kirtland for the salvation of the nation. So he's already kind of saying, hey, we're sending you this in spite of the troubles that we've had. This helped us know that we were on good standing with the Lord. Then he continues, "You will see that the Lord commanded us in Kirtland to build an house of God and to establish a school for the prophets. This is the word of the Lord to us, and we must, yay, the Lord helping us, we will obey as on conditions of our obedience, he has promised us great things, yay, even a visit from the heavens to honor us with his own presence." And then he adds, "We greatly fear before the Lord, lest we should fail of this great honor which our master proposes to confer on us. We are seeking for humility and great faith, lest we be ashamed in his presence." So it's clear to Joseph Smith that the central message of section 88 was the Lord's promise in verse 68 that if they sanctified themselves, they would see God. the instructions about building the temple, which eventually becomes the Kirtland Temple, the first temple we dedicate in the history of the church, establishing the school of the prophets, holding solemn assembly, and everything else are all means to that end. So, what's the message of section 88? Here's the instructions for how you can get into the presence of God. And in the presence of God, learn what God does, how he operates, and how he rules over the universe. Such a beautiful message and again one that we strive to live today, but that is so fundamental to everything that we do in the church today, which is to get us to live rightly with other people, to bless and help other people, and live in a way that one day leads us back into God's presence. Man, what a ride. Section 88 of the Doctrine of Covenants. Casey, that was really, really fun. Really appreciate going through that with you, my friend. Well, thank you, Scott. It's always a joy. Until next time. Okay, we'll see you next week. Thanks, Casey. [Music] [Music]