Transcript for:
Mark Cuban's Entrepreneurial Journey

My attitude is if you're happy when you're broke, you'll be happy when you're rich. You strike me as the type of guy that was broke and happy. Yes, I was. I wasn't happy. Now, on this episode of Aspire, I sit down with the legendary entrepreneur Mark Cuban, and he's not holding anything back. Whatever excuses you had, they are no more. You've got to do it. Can anyone be an entrepreneur? Doesn't matter how many times you fail, you only have to be right one time. Every no gets you closer to a yes. Today, Mark Cuban gets real about what it takes to build something that lasts. how you can start, how to stick with it, and how you can do it, too. What do you say to someone who says, "Yeah, I don't like AI. I don't want any more technology in my life." What is the answer? You're basically do or die. What is left in your life for you to accomplish? Oh, I'm just getting started. I do not understand why you're not the president of this country. I know everybody asks you, but are you 100% sure? [Music] All right, Mark. I'm so happy to have you here. Thanks for having me. I'm I'm excited. No, I'm excited, too. I I couldn't be more excited. Obviously, you and I met on Shark Tank, which was I don't know, a couple of years back now. I had the distinct pleasure of sitting next to you for three seasons. Yeah, they always put the rookies next to me. Yes, they do. Well, I asked as well. I was like, did you? Oh, good. Well, it was just a very good use of my time if during the pitches or or between the pitches I could just like sit and quiz you on things, which I did. But obviously, you've um you've stepped away after so many years, what was it? 14 seasons. 15 15 seasons. I mean, that's kind of unbelievable. How did you even know that it was time to step away? I mean, I'd been missing my son's birthdays every year because we shot a pod right at his birthday. I missed them um going back to school, you know, finishing school and you know, it was always, okay, we can't do this till dad's done with Shark Tank. And it was just time, you know, my kids are 15, 18, and 21, and you know, my oldest is going to graduate from college next year. I just don't want to be in a position where like, okay, I'm going to Shark Tank and they're gone. And I missed a lot of it. And so that was one big piece, just spending more time with family and just it was just time, you know, you can only do the same thing so for so long. But it's interesting because you hear so many stories about women that give up certain things in work for the family, but not so many men talk about that and the trade-offs that come along with like working in that way. So, it's kind of interesting to hear you admit it in a way. Yeah, I guess I guess I never really looked at it that way. It's just like this is, you know, when I look at all the things in my life that are important to me, that's at the top, you know, and that wasn't always the case. You know, I wasn't one of these people who balanced work and home, you know, I was still a grinder, you know, and when I was trying to climb, it was just like, let's go, go, go, go, go. And, you know, let's get into the next chapter. Let's get to the next level, whatever it was. And and you know, you know what? It's like you have young kids, right? And they're they're real people, but they're not real people, right? They miss you, but they don't know that you're gone really. And they're happy when you're home. It's harder as they get older. As they get older, you know, they have their own lives and they want to do their own thing. And it's harder to insert yourself. It's like I don't want you there, dad. You know, and then when that hits, that hits home. Why did you stay for so long? It kind of habit because more importantly, it sent a message particularly to kids that the American dream was alive and well. Mhm. That you know, you saw all the people, you know, that came in, Erica from Limbits, you know, it's like how do you get from there to here and the example that it sets all these things we're talking about when you get to see somebody who's doing it that went from just idea, yeah, didn't have anything. Totally. Boom. And just got I say this all the time. It's like you cannot be what you don't see. And for me that it's a great line that it's a nice line, isn't it? is. But to me, it's so true because you have to be able to have, you know, a representation of people that feel similar to you, that you can see yourself in. And every time I did that show, what you don't see, but it's, isn't it? So, that should be the tagline for Shark Tank. It really should be. It really should be. Do you feel like you made a lot of sacrifices? Have you been able to um have you been able to kind of, I guess, level with yourself on the sacrifices that you have made? Yeah. I mean, I don't look at them as sacrifices along the way because I love what I do. I love what I did. I love the path that I took. Um, but at some point, I had to be honest with myself that my kids are smart. You know, they're going to do their own thing. You know, we raised them to be independent. Um, and they're going to leave the house. Yes. And they're not going to give a [ __ ] you know. They'll go home for holidays, then that'll like kill me, you know? And so, I want to catch as many of those moments as I can. Maybe when they're all gone, living their own lives, have their own kids and all that, things will change. But for now, that was the path. Yeah, it's a really it's a really good decision. It feels like a sound one. I want to go back to the beginning. I think it's a good decision. I'm I'm at ease with it. I mean, I will miss you from my TV screen. That's I mean, I feel like you were the reason that people watch that show like in so I mean, you're one of the big reasons. You must know that about yourself. You were a huge drawer on the show. I don't feel like anyone gives as good a honest advice as you do. And so I feel like you're you're a massive draw on that. Yeah, I appreciate that. But I always thought it was the entrepreneurs, right? Everybody played the game. What are the you know, would I buy that company? Would I invest? You know, what do I think about the company? Will I buy the product? And then, you know, I would talk my talk and do my thing, which which I had fun doing, right? But yeah, I still think, you know, the show will go on because it's about the entrepreneurs. No doubt. No doubt. I I just feel like the advice that you gave was the stuff that people was writing down. Yeah. You know, I always give good advice, right? Because I wanted, you know, their whole life, you know what it's like, right? You start with nothing and it's just like it's constant fear. You know, you might be fired up about your business and you might love it and you might, you know, in your mind you have that path you're taking, but you're scared shitless half the time. Yeah. You know, one mistake and it's over. And so when they get to that carpet and they're one of, you know, the thousands of people who applied and they get there, you know, if I have experience that could help them, I'm going to give it to them 100%. I always felt the same like that. If if somebody has made it here, the very least I could do was be honest. Yes. And and tell them what my actual opinion is. Yeah. And they and they can at least leave with something even if they don't leave with an investment because that's the goal, right? Even if it's not a check, right? Because that's the thing about a shark investing in you. It's not just the check. you know, there's other value and other um value ad that you can bring. And you were always really good about that. When they brought somebody that was in your wheelhouse, I was like, I'm ready. I'm out. Just let Emma do her thing, right? You always like, do this one. I mean, Mark said, "I should do it." I know. Cuz you're good, right? It's just like I can see the look on the face and they're staring right at you, right? Like, no, they they do. They when they want you, they're like right in your ears and you're like, "Oh, it's me. I'm the chosen one. Come on." And then sometimes you're like, "I ain't doing this. I don't care how much you or me." I like this. Mark, you doing this? Anything? Cuz that's the hardest part of Shark Tank is going out. I know. It's the hardest part. It really is. And also, you feel, you know, I'm such an emotional girl, but I've really felt, you can see how nervous they are, how much they've prepared. And to walk out with seemingly nothing, like it's a lot. Well, you know, the visibility is always good. And some of the companies end up better, right? Because someone else comes in and makes them better deal or buys whatever. But um yeah, you were you always had this vibe which was like I know your business, you know, I could help you. Yes. The question is will I will I will I I mean you helped a lot of people. We're going to get into that. But before we talk any more about Shark Tank, I have to go back to the beginning because you are such a fascinating person and while I was doing the research for this particular episode, I mean I learned a lot about I thought I was a fan and I knew everything. No, no apologies needed. I was like, "Wow, he has done a lot the most." But I really want to understand a little bit more about your upbringing and where you were from and also just to understand like what what gave you the entrepreneurial bug. Like who did you learn that from? Yeah. I mean, I don't I didn't learn it from anybody. It was more my dad um in particular and my mom just saying, "Look, if you want something, you got to earn it." You know, you got to go do it. From the time I was a kid, I was I grew up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Um, my dad did upholstery on cars, so if you had a rip in your car seat, that's where you take it. My mom did odd jobs. Never had the same job for very long. Um, you know, good middle class family. And but it was always like, you want a new pair of basketball shoes, you go get a job. So I would like buy and sell trading cards. I was Michael Rubin before Michael Rubin was Michael Rubin. You know, I had Michael Rubin on like an attack. Yeah. But it's interesting that you say you were Michael Rubin before Michael Rubin because you have a very similar path in so many way. He hustled and he did his own thing, right? That's why I respect Michael. And so um but anyway, so I would buy and sell trading cards um to all my neighbors and everything. And then one day um my dad and his buddies were playing poker, probably drunk out of their mind, right? And I came in and I was like, "Dad, I want to get a new pair of basketball shoes." He looks at him. He says, "Those shoes on your feet work. When you have a job, you can get whatever you want." I'm like, "I'm 12 years old. how am I going to get a job? And one of his buddies pops up and goes, "Hey, I've got all these garbage bags and you can sell them. They're boxes of garbage bags. I got hundreds of them. Why don't you go sell them?" I'm like, "Can I, Dad?" He's like, "Cool." And so I just went door todo selling garbage bags. And it was like, "Hi, my name is Mark. Do you use garbage bags?" And everybody does. Everybody use garbage bags. I'll never forget they cost me $3 a box. They I sold them for six, you know, and I would drag them down to my neighbors the world's first garbage bag route for, you know, a year or whatever and I got my tennis shoes and I was happy. Once you learn that you that you can sell and once you learn you have confidence in talking to people, you know, you always have the ability to make money. Yes, you do. I mean, and obviously understanding that from your parents for a young age must have been pretty formative. What else did they teach you? Um, you know, my dad was gone at 7 am and home at 6. And, you know, he didn't want me to to follow his path basically. You know, he would take me where he worked and, you know, I'd get five bucks for sweeping the floor and cleaning things. Not because he wanted me to make some money or whatever, but it was more he wanted me to see how backbreaking it was. You know, he lost his eye in an accident and he did. Yeah. You know, and just it was backbreaking work and and he wanted me to go to college. I mean, my neither of my parents had gone to even though my mom when she was 50 went back, but neither of my parents had gone to college. My mom was 20 when I was born. I mean, it was just the prototypical, you know, Pittsburgh. Yeah. It was different times. And and um I just from that moment on, I was a hustler, you know. You know, I was the whole prototypical grinding all my life, whether it was selling baseball cards, garbage bags, magazines, door to door, coins, stamps I read, all the things. I would go to a stamp show, right? Start with 50 cents and leave with $50. Amazing. Amazing. Once you figure all, you know, this is how markets work and you can sell. But you had it, right? It's like, when did the hustle turn into a thirst for entrepreneurialism? Um, after I realized I was a lousy employee and I was getting fired or couldn't stand it, you know, then I had no choice. Always a signal, isn't it? You're like, okay. You're like, see, right? You know, you know, when it really hit was um I started I moved down to Dallas. I was living six guys in a three-bedroom apartment, sleeping on the floor. And I gotten a job first as a bartender. Then I got a day job working um at a company called Your Business Software selling technology. And you know, I had didn't really know technology at the time, but I was like, I'll read the manuals. I'll do whatever. And it was going around going along great. You know, I was making money um relatively speaking. And then I had a chance to get a big commission, right? So I had a chance to pick up What was a big commission back then? 1,500 bucks. Oh, cuz that was enough for me to move out of the [ __ ] hole I lived in because I was sleeping on the floor threebedroom apartment, right? And so I was like, "Okay, this will get me out." And so I called my boss and I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to go pick up this check. I'm because I'm supposed to, you know, sweep the floor, open up the retail store." He's like, "No, I need you at the store." I'm like, "Michael, Michael was in I got you covered, right?" And um he goes, "No, I need you to be in the store." So I'm like, "Okay, I need this commission check. If I go pick up a check for 15 grand, the store needed it. He need it. I show up. He fires me. Ah, yeah. Yeah. So, I'm done there almost. I'm like, "Okay, I got to control my own destiny. I know I can sell. I know I can do this stuff." So, I had a prospect, a company called Architectural Lighting, and I went to them and I said, "Look, I'm broke, right? I don't have the money for this." How old are you at this point? Um, 24. Okay. So, so I've been through jobs and bounc. And so, um, 24, almost 24. And so, um, I went to this company, Architectural Lighting, I said, "This software that you want is cost $250. If you give me $500, so I have something to live off for a couple weeks. If it doesn't work, I'll walk your dog. I'll sweep your floor. I'll wash your car. Whatever it takes, whatever it takes." And it worked. And then I went same did something similar to the next one and the next one and the next one. And that was the company Micro Solutions. And I went seven years without a vacation. But eight, you know, eighth year in, we sold it to H&R Block. And you know that was my first exit. Yeah. That's so crazy. Was that your first big yes? Like was that the moment where you're like I understand that I am good at something and I have a path here. Yes. Yeah. Cuz then once I got into tech that was it. It was over cuz I loved learning it you know cuz the way I looked at it because I didn't take computer science. So I was like, "Okay, I get this because I like to learn this stuff." And I like even to this minute, like putting in time to learn technology, it's fun to me. Like to me, like my my brain just clicks with it and I get excited about it. Okay, I'm learning this new. And when you're learning stuff like that and you have, you know, a sales background and a process background, you can start applying everything that you know to like Shark Tank Company, right? A Shark Tank company walks in in a minute. and I know exactly how they make money and what they do and what technology works and doesn't. And you know, that allowed me to be successful at Micro Solutions. After that, I bought and sold stocks, started a um hedge fund and sold it within nine months. We were just killing it, you know, and so that's when I knew that I was on a path. And what did you learn from Micro Solutions? Because that was like a different time from a technology perspective, right? Like it was brand new and almost kind of like a wild wild west in a way, right? Like what did you actually figure out that no one else had figured out at that point? What separated us? I figured out really early on that it was one thing to sell a computer. It was another thing even to write software and I taught myself how to code to put on You taught yourself how to code. How did you do that at that time? I would spend hours like I remember I would have to write I would walk into a company and say okay you know this will help you become more profitable, more productive, more profitable, better competitive advantage, right? the whole field and I'll write the software for you and it'll cost you x amount of dollars. No matter how long it takes me, it'll be x amount of dollars. And so, you know, the pressure was on me and I I would find myself, you know, co I'd look up and I literally would have a bucket of ribs. It was gross. Bucket and like towels and I was just like I gained like 20 pounds to chop on these ribs. But I looked up and it'd be 20 hours later, 25 hours later because I was concentrating so hard I lost track of time. And you know, and so I was able to take all that I learned and then what I realized that really separated us was connecting PCs together were brand new, you know, and back then people would have a floppy disc and they'd walk around, right? You know, or they couldn't even connect their printers. Um, now that seems insane, but I would go into these companies. I'm going to I'm going to show you how I can connect all these printers and all these computers together. You can share data, become more profitable, more and I'll write software to make it easier. And then I knew I won. Have you always had that ability to like take, you know, to really concentrate and focus and double down and take in and absorb information? Were you that type of student? Yeah. Um, yes and no. Depends on the topic. You know, if it was sports, Yeah. If it's something you enjoyed, you could do it. I like and once I realized I like tech cuz I had no idea. I had literally no idea. But it's interesting that you say it was fun like did you know like it's something just like sports that you enjoyed. You were just gobbling up with the ribs all the information right but that's it. You were like it was fun for you. you I'm doing it to this day like to this minute like if I have an extra minute like now I'm learning all I can about AI because there's some 15year-old kid that's just gloming on to this like it's second nature and if I don't know it he's going to kick my ass or she's going to kick my ass and if I do know it I'm going to kick their ass right summer is when the world slows down just enough for you to get focused and for me that's when some of my best ideas have taken shape whether you're refining products preparing for peak season or leveling up your brand. Shopify helps make it seamless. I love that I can manage everything from fulfillment to product drops on the go. No matter where I am, the business keeps moving with me. We run Ski and Good American on Shopify. It's helped us build, scale, and grow with unbelievable ease. And I'm not just saying that. 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I'm like, yeah, early internet radio startup. It was the first streaming company, period. But that was a massive turning point for you in your business life career. Yeah. Like, you know, my buddy Todd Wagner from Indiana. We were having lunch at California Pizza Kitchen. And he was like, "There's got to be a way we can listen to Indiana basketball down here in Dallas." Because at the time, always solving for sports, Mark. Yeah. Right. Yeah. at because at the time somebody in Bloomington, Indiana had to put a radio next to a speaker phone in their office and then we would have a speaker phone down in Dallas and that's how we listen to games. I know why it was not. Yes. You know, and now this the internet was happening and Mr. Geek here was like, "Okay, I know what networking is all about because that's what Microsolutions did. Let me figure something out because if it works, you know, there's no distance, there's no time. You can watch anything or listen to anything anywhere." So, we started as a company called AudioNet in 1995 and nobody back then we called it internet broadcasting and nobody was streaming. Nobody. And we're like, "Oh [ __ ] okay, let's see what we can do." So, I went to a local radio station, KIF, and literally we connected a eight hour VCR to their board, right, and took the output of their radio and recorded it on eight hour VCR tapes. took it back to my house, encoded it, put it then put it on our website audionet.com and I would go on all these forums and um Prodigy and CompuServe and the internet and I would say hey if you live in Dallas and you're if you're from Dallas and you want to know about Dallas sports and Dallas news, you have to do all these five steps but then you can do it and then first day you know 10 people next day 100 people next you know month a thousand people and then we started adding more and more radio stations and then you know probably 6 months later we were able to do live. Did you know that that was going to change your life? Were you like this is the the beginning? Yes. Because I remember having a meeting with everybody and saying if this works the way I think it'll work this company's worth $5 billion. You knew that? Without any doubt in my mind because it changed everything. And everybody thought I was a [ __ ] right? Dude, we'll turn on the television. Yeah, dude. I just have to turn on the radio. But I'm like, in an office, you can't just do that. Like, there's no televisions here. There's no radios. Well, it's different now, but but back then there weren't. And so, it was the only media device on your desktop. And they had more bandwidth. So, like people would listen to Cubs games, people would listen to soccer, football from overseas, right? It was the only way they can get it. And back then, the laws were different. So, I could just walk into um Best Buy and buy 200 CDs and encode them and just put it on our jukebox and people could listen to everything. We had, you know, um 400 plus radio stations. We played Christmas music on loop all year long. I mean, just all the stuff that you see on Spotify. Yeah. And then we got to video. All the stuff you see on YouTube, we were doing in 95, 96, 97, 98, 99 until we sold to Yahoo in 2000, which is insane. I mean, the the idea that you sold that company to Yahoo for how much? $5.7 billion. So, you were right. This is worth $5 billion. Yeah, it really was. It turned out Yeah. You like kaching. Yeah. Amazing. Did you have a bunch of partners at that point? Um, well, we had gone public, right? And so, we went public in July of 1998. And at the time, the Broadcast.com IPO was the biggest first day leap in the history of the stock market. Wow. Which was so cool. That's so cool because like the minute we went public and then the stock market closed and it went from $18 up to 72 and then finished at 6275 and all of a sudden like I was worth $300 million. So we went straight to a bar and we turned on Oh yeah. And so we had him turn on um like CNN and all the the networks and every time they mentioned Broadcast.com and the IPO, we took a shot and we couldn't see. Yeah. Oh my god. Completely smashed. And then we had to get back to work the next day because like I told everybody, you got to keep that stock price rising. When all these people trusted using, you know, they they put our hard their hardearned money and they it worked out. Yeah. So take me inside that Yahoo deal. Like what did you learn? What did it teach you? Um, well, there's a bunch of pieces there, right? Um, we brought them in as an investor for only a million dollars like right after the IPO. A million dollars. That was a tiny Yeah, it was a tiny smidgen of the company. Um, but we wanted access to the Yahoo website and we just wanted the connection. So, that was like a valuable partner. It wasn't necessarily about the the financial it wasn't a financial investor. It was strategic strategic. Yeah. And so they were strategic investor and then all of a sudden, you know, as our our you know, people that oh, they just did internet radio. No, like we invented all these things that were different and I wish I'd gotten patents. Um yeah, it just kills me because I it's so funny because I I posted it on social. Um I found an old letter that um our patent attorney had written said, "Here's all the patents you could apply for." And back then I'm like, "We're too busy. We're getting ready to sell the company." And like everything led happens, which is so crazy because whenever I hear this story about you, like you only think about the success. You only think about what he built this company tied these and we saw things nobody else. Someone told me it probably is worth 10 trillion dollars. Like the whole Does that haunt you? Does that bother you at all? Because I'm really well off so I'm okay. You're good. There's a lot of [ __ ] I've missed along the way that I have more money and I'm good. You're good. Um, in some respects it pisses me off because people just think it was internet radio. Yeah. Right. And if I had gotten Yeah. You don't get you don't get the credit that you should have for everything that came out of that. Yeah. We started the whole thing. I mean like literally if Yahoo hadn't screwed it up, there'd be no there'd be no um Spotify, there'd be no YouTube. But Mark, was it really about the time like you not being able to actually like go out and get those patterns or did did you actually understand what you were creating at that point? knew exactly what we were creating and the value couldn't go because we were different than everybody else. We were kicking everybody's ass. I mean, we were a top 10 website literally. Yeah. I mean, we had millions of users. Millions of people were streaming like, you know, we were, you know, doing video online that nobody else could do or had done. It was It was fun. And how big was the company? How many people at that point? 330. Yeah. But you have to focus, right? Even with 300 people, it's like you've got your things that you're trying to achieve and you have to focus and double down on those things. You didn't have time to go out and think. No, it wasn't about all the esoteric stuff. Yeah. Right. It was like we have to win. It's a competitive business and so we have to stay focused on being the best streamer, you know, whatever the type of content, but things like, you know, inserted ads, things like, you know, popup video ads in front of content, all these things that people do today. We were doing and it's been 30 [ __ ] years. It's insane. It actually is insane to even think about. So you actually like there's so much of what we take for granted now that you guys just invented at that point. I can't even believe that. Um I wonder so when you get this Yahoo deal, did it turn out as you had expected? No, I mean so two pieces. One, we sold in stock, right? Which is not cash as you know. And so I had No, it's not. No, it's not. Because back then in the internet stock market, stocks went up, stocks were going down, stocks went up. And I'm like, I'm a billionaire, you know? I like it and I don't want to risk it. I don't need more money. I need to protect what I got. And so I did this thing called a collar where I sold out of the money calls on the stock that we got from Yahoo on Yahoo stock and I bought puts to protect the b downside from the money I got from. Okay. Explain that for explain that really slowly for us that might not understand it. So a share collar. Yeah. Share stock. um that we got Yahoo stock and we sold what is are known as calls. Call on a share of stock gives somebody that you sell it to the right to buy that share of stock at whatever the price like a predetermined price down the road price. So if Yahoo stock was 100 and I sold it, you can buy this at 120 and um you pay me some amount of money for that. That's selling a call. Then I took that money and I bought a put which is the opposite side. It protects the downside. It says if Yahoo stocks us over there. Oh yeah. So if Yahoo stock falls below the level I bought from you have to buy it from me at that price, you know. And I was like such a clever crash. Yeah, it crashed. Of course it crashed. This is it. The whole, you know, internet stock, you know, bubble burst. And so I actually ended up making some more money on that. So that was part one. That worked out fine. But then Yahoo, you know, when that internet stock bubble burst, Yahoo's board of directors just freaked out because their stock had gone from hundreds to tens, you know, or less. And they're like, "Okay, we got to cut expenses." And so the streaming side was, you know, huge mistake, but that's part of what they cut. Wow. Um, talk to me about your relationship to money as a founder because I just feel like a founder's journey is so uneven. And it's like you've got nothing, you got nothing, you got nothing. Then hopefully you get something and maybe it's too much and you don't know what to do with it. Yeah. I mean that's a great question. Um like my attitude is if you're happy when you're broke, you'll be happy when you're rich. If you were miserable when you were broke, there's no amount of money that's going to change you from being miserable. And so, you know, when I was sleeping on the floor, I still was having fun. You know, you strike me as the type of guy that was broke and happy. Yes, I was. I wasn't happy. Yeah. I wasn't happy to be pro, right? But I I I was going to have fun no matter what. And so, you know, when I sold Micro Solutions, I ended up with like $2 million. And I was 29 years old, give or take. And so, I bought a lifetime pass on American Airlines for $125,000. A great deal. Oh my god, it's a great deal. My only mission because in my mind, I was retired and my only mission at 29. At 29, yeah. My only mission in life was to party like a rock star because all I had to do I had this card that I could walk up to American Airlines and just show it. And I was actually living in LA, not far from here. And um I was like, "Okay, I'd go out to the clubs and find a new friend. Let's go to Vegas. Let's go to Vegas. Let's go to London. Let's go wherever." And you used it. Did you get your money's worth out there? 120 bucks. Oh, yes, I did. And it was lifetime pass. Please tell me you can't just You can't just still use that now. I could, but I gave it I gave it to my dad and when my dad passed I gave it to a friend. Oh, that's so lovely. Yeah, that's so you, Mark, to do that. But I'm sure you got your use out of it in the in the interim. Oh my god. So back So back to the money. So you get $2 million when you're about 29. The next big chunk of money doesn't come until you've sold. Well, no, not not right. So become So I took that $2 million and initially I told my stock broker, who was a buddy of mine, I want I want you to invest like a 60-y old. I want you to put it in bonds because I want to live off of this. interest rates were higher. I want to live off of this for a while. Right. You had a sense though that two million bucks you'd kind of made it at that point. Well, yes. Or you knew you were going to make loads of money in your mind. I didn't. I didn't. I I was willing to live like a student for a long time. Wow. But what came along was I talked to my broker and he would ask me all these questions about stuff I knew because of Micro Solutions. And then I'd see these people who worked, it was Goldman Sachs, work for Goldman Sachs, go on CNBC or whatever it was back then and say exactly what I said and the stock would go up or down. And my buddy was like, "You know this stuff better than our guys do. You should be buying and selling these stocks." So I'm like, "Okay, I will." And I just crushed it. I mean, crushed it. I turned that 2 million, I don't even know what it ended up being, 15, 20 million, right? And it was just like, "Okay." Okay. And then we started broadcast and that allowed me to keep going. How do you think that your relationship with money shaped your early decisions as an entrepreneur? Oh, 100%. Right. I mean, I was that kid that drove around and looked at the big houses and listened to motivational tapes in the car. Yeah. And that used to drive around looking at all the big houses. That was such a thing for me. Yes. 100%. I'm like, what do these people do, right? How did they get there? What is it that they have that I don't? What is their motivation? And that was my motivation. And so I always wanted to make more money, but I always wanted to use my time first, right? Time was the most valuable asset. That's that's kind of what my dad and my parents taught me because, you know, if you're grinding the same job and, you know, not really making money, you know, my dad never made more than $40,000 in his life. And you're stuck. You know, you can live a great life. It's not like you can't really enjoy your life and have a great family like we did, but you know there things we couldn't do. You know, things you know that hey dad, can we do this or can I No. No. Sorry. No, it doesn't work that way. And you get a job and you can do it. Um, and so, you know, I I wanted to really value my time first and then as I started earning more money and then it was like, okay, what is it that I can use this for? And it was have fun, you know, and then sure, you know, but I still it was still like, okay, I need to save this forever more. M and then when we hit it with the billions then then everything changed because it was like okay what will change my life immediately. So it was like I bought a house you know sight unseen that was a $25 million house. No you didn't. Honestly who spends 25 million? I didn't spend 25. So what the deal was was a guy you didn't you did a deal. I did a deal. Right. This guy Damn. Um how I remember this dude's name I don't know. Right. But he owned this company. He never sold a share of stock. It was a public company. never sold a share of stock and then the company cratered. And so he spent three years and $25 million building this house, more than three years, lived there eight months. And my friend said, "Look, he it's going to go to bankruptcy and you can get it for $12 million." And he showed me a picture. I'm like, "Fuck it. Done." You know, done. I still live in that house. No, you don't live in that house. I live in that same house 25 years. 27 years later. What a fantastic investment. That was your house. That was yours meant to be. That was because that's what it was just a be like amazing house, right? Like literally until I got married and had kids, there were rooms I had never been in. There's still room. You couldn't even make your way around it. There are still rooms. That says a lot about you and who you are, though. Because I feel like you are just so comfortable in who you are that once you've got your thing, that's it. You're just going to stay and stay. Yeah. It was just like like until I got married, I had no furniture. I had like one couch and a big screen TV and it was so big like we would play football and whiffle ball like in the ballroom and I literally had a basketball hoop in the ballroom of the house and so I could just get some shots up. It was like amazing. It was so much fun. 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So if you would have asked me this question six months ago, I would have given you a completely different answer. Well, I'm so glad I got you now. Yeah. Right. Um because of AI, like literally this morning, I got a question from a kid in high school and I, you know, I get so many emails and every now and then, you are unbelievable at answering. Well, somebody I like, right, I'm going to respond immediately. But like every now and then, I'll be, okay, it's from a kid. Let's see what the question is, right? And he said, well, same question. How do you get started? And I was like, okay, first thing you have to do is learn AI. You have whether it's chatbt, Gemini, perplexity, claude, you've got to spend tons and tons and tons of time just learning how it works and how to ask it questions. Is that what you're doing at the moment? You're spending time. So, talk me through that. What does that look like? If we if you're a founder right now and you want to just learn AI, what are you doing? Um, just asking it questions. Just asking it questions and trying everything that comes out that's new. There's so it's like the early days that when I first got started, every day there was a new technology. Every day there was new software. Every day the PCs and the networks were getting faster and um bandwidth was getting faster. So, it was just a constant oh my god. Oh my god. And AI is the same way now. What do you say to someone who says, "Yeah, but I I don't like AI. I don't want any more technology in my life. Like what what is the answer? You're [ __ ] Basically, that's it. It's like do or die. Yeah. That's like saying I don't you know back in the day people I don't need to use a PC. I don't need to use the internet. I don't need a a cell phone. You know, Wi-Fi and those businesses died. Done. Yeah. And there's so many examples of that, right? Brands that just didn't transition. Didn't update, didn't do what they needed to do and didn't bo onto the internet. didn't figure out, you know, it's just like all the stuff you have to learn, right, for great American skills, right? It's never ending. It's a never- ending competition. And now your business is harder than it's ever been. The hardest the hardest and changes every day, every millisecond. You know, if you saw the stuff that came from Google, right, where people are just typing in things and creating like great content. Unreal. Now, I mean, I was at the Google Summit last week where they were when they showed you all this, right? They wanted you to see all this. You're you're you can't even fathom that what you're looking at isn't real. I'm like, "Wait a minute. What what is so good about this?" And they're like, "It's not like they have five six figures anymore. It is like the realest stuff ever." Now, the good news, so there's multiple parts to all this, right? If you're an entrepreneur or want to be an entrepreneur and you start playing with it to get a sense of how it works, how to prompt, um, it becomes like a mentor. It becomes like having, you know, an entire staff of a thousand business professors. That's how you're thinking about it. Yeah. Because you still have to be smart to do it. Like I like if you would say to me, Mark, I need a commercial for skims. Like I can I know how to use all the technology. I can type in prompts, but I don't have the create creative side of it. I don't know like okay you know if you're using a 35 millimeter camera and this type of light you need this type of aperture and you need this type of angle and you need to you know you want these so like nuance of expertise is still really important more important and the more you're giving AI the more you're getting out of it right like that's my limited understanding is as good as what you give it correct now it's going to come up with stuff that you couldn't even fathom it's that good and it's the ultimate time hack because Now, okay, edit that together. Let's see what it looks like. And then you look at the dailies and you're like, "Okay, that looks good. Okay, let's, you know, shoot a little bit more and see what we get." Now, you don't got to shoot [ __ ] You ain't got to do anything, right? But you still got to be able to know how to edit it. You still got to know how to tell a story. And your ability to tell a story now changes dramatically. So, before it' be like, "Okay, it's here's my 15-second, here's my 30s, here's my 60s, right? Maybe we'll do something long form. we'll see cuz you know on Tik Tok people you know like this or don't like that and you know let's see where the fit is and what the algorithm supports. Now you just crank out 50 different things in six minutes and then you get to ABC test it and see or run it through but you still need to have quality quality qualified people to say that's good that's not so it's no substitute for actual humans but you're just like it's much less. So you're thinking about AI as in that this is a replacement for some level of creative output for some level of the number of staff that you might need. So it's almost like shrinking everything that's been in the beginning. It's no different than like CGI has changed over the last 30 years, you know, using digital. You went from analog cameras to digital cameras to you can use your phone and it's 4K and then then it'll be 8K, right? So there's things that you didn't you don't do now that you did five years ago to create content. And so it's just one more move forward. But for starting a business like you can say okay here's what I want to do. I have this idea where I want to sell these cuffs that say aspire by emreed. I want to do a business around this. Write me a business plan. And then you get it in a minute and you say this is wrong. This is wrong. This is wrong. Update this. This this this. Okay. All right. Now that you've read my business plan, chat GPT or Gemini, put together a website, design, boom. Minute later, you're looking at the first proof of your website. I mean, to me, right now, there's no better time to be a startup entrepreneur because you have an expert in your pocket. You go to chat GPT or whatever Gemini, and just ask it. But I love that this stage of your journey, Mark, you are using that. Like, as accomplished as you are, as successful as you are, even you are starting. Yeah. I mean, it's over. And it gets weird sometimes, too. Like, I'm going to take a picture of your phone. Like, what apps do you have that I don't? Oh, I I've got everything. It's all on there. Who's teaching you about it? Like, are you Is it all self-discovery or are you like engaging with I need I need a um Is Sam Alman on speed dial? No, no, no. Just myself. Okay. I don't, you know, it's fun, more fun to learn. Okay. I need a business plan for a mug that says Aspire on it that I want to sell um through SKIMS. Write me a business plan and the best approach to take it to them. Okay. All right. Let's map this out. First off, the main idea is a sleek, stylish mug branded with the word Aspire. Sold in collaboration with Skiims, leveraging their brand power and audience. One, executive summary. You're launching a premium mug line that compliments Skiim's lifestyle brand. The mug embodies motivation and minimalism, aligning with Skim's aesthetic and Okay, that's enough for right now. Just write it up for me and I'll read it later. Okay. Unbelievable. All of these things that used to take weeks and weeks and weeks and copywriters and editors and graphic designers specialist and you're meeting with your team and going through what do you think? What do you think? And some everybody's always got to give their opinion because otherwise they don't feel valued, right? And that takes time, that takes energy. Yeah. And so if you can consolidate now, do you still need people who can copyright? But yes, but those people Yes. You just need far less, right? Well, it's just you need fewer, but maybe not, right? Maybe you just those but those copywriters have to learn how to use prompts in AI and they have to know which AI will take those prompts and give you better output that's suitable for your businesses. And then the editors would be able to take that video that it creates or the script for the video first and know how to use it within an AI structure like VO which is the video creation right and so because if you don't know how to translate the script into what VO uses and it's changing every day now whatever comes next next next next then you won't have a job but if you have those skills as an editor and a copywriter and you know how to translate them into AI so that your prompts are really really good and quick and efficient, you'll have a job for life. Of course. So, someone starting a business now needs to learn AI. All of it. All of it. Gobble all the information up day one. Learn everything about AI. And like I told this kid this morning, read books about entrepreneurs because there's still the heart. The AI isn't going to deal with your heart and mind because you knowing what the grind is and the work and the fear because I can get AI to write business plan for this or anything for that matter. But if I'm not willing to do the work, if I don't understand that I might be broke for a long time. If I don't understand that now it's easier for anybody to start a business. So now there's more competition, not less. If I don't understand that, then it doesn't matter what the AI tells me. Because you read a lot, right? Yeah. I tried to, but now it's all reading about AI. Yeah. Yeah. But so all right. So you want people to read books about entrepreneurs and what's probably the last thing they need to do. The last thing is just to experiment. You know, you've got to try stuff that feels uncomfortable. You can ask the AI, how do I, you know, how do I build um a mold? Where where's the best way to build a mold? And even like one of the beauties of AI, it'll it'll help you create molds that'll be more efficient wherever you send it to build your first, you know, prototypes. We're in a whole new world. Whole world. It's a whole new world. Literally, Emma, 2024 was might as well say black and white 1920. Well, which which to me signals so much opportunity opportunity, right? But when we start to think about, okay, traditionally the barriers that have stopped people from starting a business, uh, you know, where they live, where they come from, education level, it's it's gone. You're saying that's out the window now. Oh, yes. as long as you have that smartphone that can download chatbt and all these things um not even paying up right um you can ask it questions like you have access to me you the best professors ever now it's doesn't mean there's no excuse now you know you may say I need money to do this but then you just at this chat GPT how can I do this with no money what's the best way to start like how can I create a prototype the least expensive way I know what needs to happen in most businesses Right. Anybody can now ask those questions. Anybody. So given everything that you know, the experience of building multiple companies, the experience of you know investing in all of these very kind of early stage founders. I I guess my question to you is should or can everyone be a founder? Can anyone be an entrepreneur? Can they? Yes. Should they know? Thank you. That's the end of that. Tell me why. Go on. Give me the give me the reasons. Everybody's got ideas. And this country, that's what makes this country different than every country in the world. I say that all the time. Right. Because in the UK, not everybody thinks I can start a business. No. Doesn't cross their mind. No. Absolutely. It's not this. It's woven into the fabric of society in America. Doesn't matter who the president is. Doesn't matter what party's in charge. It's doable. It's doable. It's doable. Right. and this country we think I have an idea and if I have an idea it could become a business and then you go on Google or now you go to chat GPT or Gemini and you say has this ever been done before you know show me anybody who's done it and how it's turned out oh nobody's done it before write me a business plan for this idea okay in two seconds later let me go through it I can do this right but then but not everybody should do this Mark there's this line right here what is the line the When you step over that line, you're in. And it means you got to do everything you got to do to be you got to do it. You got to do it. You got to do it. It's not like I'll go raise money and I'll hire people. That's failure right there, right? You've got to be the one to do it. And most people aren't willing to make that commitment. So, who shouldn't be a founder? Like, if you want structure, you should not be a founder. Now, you can be anal and deal with details, but if you think, okay, you know, I want my life to have structure. You know, I want to work 9 to5. I want to be a founder because I'll have more time to myself. I'll have funny all of those things, Mark, that you say that. Am I wrong? No, you are. You are right. It's just that certain people have a liberty to be able to say those things and other people maybe not so much. But you honestly believe that it's like if you're looking for structure, if you're looking for familiarity, if you're looking for your days to be Yeah. Like pretty much the same every day. Yeah. You don't like you own the If you're looking for balance, just forget it. Maybe don't be a founder. Yeah. I mean, maybe you can make it work if you have, you know, enough money to work your way through it. Um, you own the finances of your company, but your customers and your employees really run your life, you know, and that doesn't even take into account competition who was working 24 hours a day to kick your ass, to kill you. Yeah. And so it's I mean, you know, and in your industry better than anybody, right? Because it is nonstop. Somebody comes in somebody comes in, they have an idea. Oh, no. You know, Emma's wrong. she, you know, she she doesn't get the feel anymore. That's not that's not the way people buy. And you have a window in time as well, right? You're not good forever. Most founders are not great. You have like a like musicians, you know, I feel like there are these like golden years where you're like in it, you're on it, everything's coming your way, stars align. Yeah. Exactly. Right. Your feel is the match to what people want. Yes. And music's a great analogy, right? Because what was a hit yesterday and today? Same with clothes. Things that Oh man, everybody wants that. So what are your red flags? Like when you're in a pitch situation, what are the things that to you you're just like that's a no no. They think there's a magic bullet that if they raise money, they can go hire somebody to do A, B, and C. And that's where I think most businesses fail. Um because the founder will realize they don't have a specific skill set and or that something's not working that they expect it to work. I thought for sure this would sell. I thought, you know, we're losing $20,000 a month. If only I had more money for a bigger marketing budget. If only I could hire a marketing person. If only I can hire a salesperson. Yeah. It's always kicking the can down the road, right? To somebody else that's going to be some super person. That's, you know, a magic bullet. No, you've got to do it. You got to be the bullet. You've got to be the bullet, right? If you aren't the magic bullet, it's not going to work unless you get lucky. Have you ever seen anything contrary to that? Like has there ever been a time where you've met somebody and actually they've defied Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean there's people, you know, it's rare. It's just very very rare. Right. I've heard you say a million times that you don't need money to start. So what do people do when they don't have money to start? Sweat equity. You know, you've got to first you've got to find the right product or service. More if you don't have any money, most likely it's going to be a service. You know, like right now, if I was 16 years old or 25 years old and broke sleeping on the floor again, I'd be all about AI, just like I taught myself programming before. So, if you had nothing right now, if you just had a,000 bucks and a laptop, you'd be on the AI track. If I had access to a library Yeah. and zero dollars, I would be all about AI. I'd be in there till they kicked me out eating my ribs, you know. With the ribs. Yep. Um, till they kick me out. Yeah. And then I knew that I know that I can walk into any small business and say, "I know you don't know AI and I know you're hearing about it and you've messed with chat GPT some and you're not really sure how to use it." Just like back then I said, "Here, let me show you how to use a computer and connect them together to be more profitable, etc." That's exactly what I would do. What do you What do you think that the best founders do that separates them from everyone else? They love their product or service so much, they just love to sell it. They realize they're not convincing somebody. They realize they're helping somebody. You're going to look good in those clothes. Let me show you how and why. You're going to look good using this software. You're going to look good. You know, use using this A will be make you more productive or profitable. You're going to be smarter when you're done reading this book. Whatever it is, you know, they are so convinced that their product is going to make people's lives better. Why wouldn't they want to sell it and talk to as many people as they could? I love that. What do you think, Mark, separates, I guess, somebody that has a real viable business idea from somebody that has like a hobby? Like, how do you how do you know when something is like this is a thing that I can turn into like an actual Bible business? There's two pieces there. If you're so committed you're dreaming about it, you dreamt about your business, right? over and over and over again. You would wake up and you'd write yourself notes because you didn't want to forget what you dreamed about. All the time. All the time. All the time. Same. Right. To this. I cannot tell you. All the time. Exactly. That's how you know. And then you've got to see if it's a real business because you might be so, you know, caught up in it. Um, but who knows if anybody How do you know if something is viable? People are buying it. That's it. Just people are buying it. That simple. They'll, you know, Venmo you. They'll send you money. That's it. That's it. How else do you know? That simple. Yeah. Now, like you, you know, you started, you sold a few, right? Then you went to I started with one customer. Once I get my one customer, then I can have enough money to go get something for the second company. Damon John talks about selling t-shirts on the corner. And then once you sold, you know, his lot that he had, you use that money. I think people think it's going to happen. Oh, yeah. Everyone feels like it's some overnight grind. It's a slow grind. I talk about this all the time in my own business, but certainly on Shark Tank. What is the difference between someone that should just continue to climb the corporate ladder and someone that should go out on their own? Like, do you see that very clearly? Yeah. I mean, what are you good at? You know, people tend not to quit things they're good at. People tend to get rewarded for things they're good at. And whatever it is that makes you good or got you to be good, just do more of it. Now, you may reach, you know, a level where you can't go higher for any number of different reasons. And then, you know, you can look at going to a competitor, going somewhere else, or starting something on your own. But when you're good at something and you're moving up the ladder and, you know, you're getting results, there's a really good chance that you or at least you should be rewarded. Yeah. And you know, that's good reason to stick with it. I feel like there's just for so many people, they'll be in a corporate job feeling that they're not getting properly rewarded, but that's not the reason to necessarily go and start up on their own. I mean, you could that's what weekends are for. That's what nights are for. Should I quit my job? When do I know I should quit my job? You don't until you know you have a company. Don't. Yes. And when do you know you've got a company? When the money starts. When the money starts going in. But it's as simple as that. So So what do you say to people then? They're like, "Okay, I've got my day job. I've got my side hustle. I'm working on the weekends. I'm seeing some customers. Where is the when and where is the time to go, okay, now I've got to apply myself fully?" I mean, when you see your bank account, are you making it that simple for everyone? Yes. like when you can afford to live. Do you think differently? No, I think it's really difficult for people because you know sometimes you can get stuck between a rock and a hard place, right? And I think the hardest thing is actually when you've got a business that doesn't take off. When something takes off, yeah, then it's easy. You got total clarity. When you've got something where you're like, well, you know, I only work on this for like 10 hours a week and if I could apply myself a little bit more, you end up in that, you know, usually, you know, right? Because, you know, at that point in time, it's typically, all right, I need more inventory, right? or there's something whatever it is there's like a barrier right there's a barrier and then you deal with that barrier and you may need your job to pay for more inventory you may need to say okay I got to save my money so I have more inventory for my company whatever that barrier is that's what you deal with yeah that's that's what you got to deal with I mean I think there's a lot of headlines right now about people you know like graduates that are unemployed and I just wonder what you would say or what your advice would be for new people that are entering the world of Yeah. I mean, you know, a go find a job because you just spent four years paying to learn, right? When you have a job, it doesn't have to be a perfect job, but you're getting paid to learn. I mean, yeah, you're getting paid to learn after paying to learn, right? You spent all that tuition money. So, whatever business you go into, wherever you work, you're going to learn stuff. If you go in with the attitude that, okay, it's just a job. I just, you know, go home. But if you go in thinking, okay, this is a company. This is somebody's operating this company. I may be 10 layers down, but at least I can see what they do and learn some things on how they approach it. And I might think to myself nine months later, 10 months later, okay, I've learned what I think I can learn here. I don't I don't like it, you know, go get another job. I love I think that's really valuable advice. And if I think if I think back to my 20s where I worked a corporate job for years, that's what it taught me. It taught me like how do you run a business actually quite badly and I really did. It's like, well, that doesn't make sense and they're giving it away over there and this, you know, but it was a great kind of training ground for me because I learned more what not to do than what to do when I worked in corporate America. And but that's what I think people get caught up in. You know, I'm not fully fulfilled. Well, you're getting paid to learn. You spent your four years in college if that's what you That's the mindset shift, right? It's like you're getting paid to learn, not like I'm not fulfilled. This is not like, you know, my purpose in life. It's not supposed to be your purpose. It's a check. And if you can appreciate it as like I'm learning every day, whatever you start, whatever you start, right, you're going to have to go through a learning process. Yeah. Using chat GPT or not, you're going to have to go through a learning process. And if you can do it on somebody else's dime and if in the back of your mind, you know, I want to be an entrepreneur like I did. I was always looking at that stuff because I knew I wanted to have my own company at some point. So every day was a chance for me to learn, you know, even if it got me fired. And you know, I think now it's not any different. And when I graduated from college, the unemployment Do you think it isn't any different? No. Really? No. Like when I graduated from college, you don't think there was just like so much more opportunity years ago? Like there's Oh, hell no. Really? Hell no. Oh, I challenge you on that one. I mean, so okay, so you I think that for example, if you went back 30 years, for me it seemed like there was just so much less competition. No. Well, just because it wasn't all online where you can see it, you know, that's true. That's that's fair. And but now if and but isn't that so much part of it, Mark? Because like the fear for so many people is what they know. And sometimes what you don't know like I feel like my naivity in the beginning of starting a business was my biggest superpower because you don't know what you don't know. So I was like, you don't know to be afraid of this or that. Yes. Exactly. Sure. But think about it, you know, going to your question. Right. Back then you needed a whole lot more money to get started. True. Right now, if you have a phone and chat GPT, cost of entry is low. Yeah. Nothing. You can figure out Shopify. Shopify, right? Amazon, whatever, right? Moles were more expensive. You couldn't just send it to China. Everything was more expensive. Um, you couldn't to make [ __ ] was a lot harder, more expensive. You couldn't just go online like with, you know, and just learn all this [ __ ] Like when I You were reading manuals. I was I would literally I would read the [ __ ] manual cataloged. Yeah. And I was sitting in bookstores. I would literally go into bookstores, grab this magazine, grab this magazine, grab that book, go grab that book, hide in the corner and read all day cuz I couldn't afford to buy that [ __ ] Yeah. There was no Blinkist summary on something. And there was no shortcuts. There were no life hacks that like get you there. So now it may be harder because there's more competition, but to get started, there's there was no businesses back then you could start with no money down unless you were just selling your time. You know, I'm shoveling driveways, going door todoor, whatever. Right now, get your your Shopify and if you sell something, then you go to the manufacturer or you go to the distributor and you drop ship it. There's ways. There's ways. There's ways. What's something that you wish every firsttime founder knew? Sales cures all. Sales cures all. No sales, no company. That's it. No exception. Sales. People get amored with all the other stuff. Amore with their model, the marketing. And it's like you need sales. I talk about this all the time. It's like focus on distribution, focus on your sales, focus on like owning that story and just being the best salesperson possible because that's all you need at the end of the day. Cuz if you can sell, yeah, you'll figure the rest out. Yes. Everything follows through to that sale. If you can't sell, it doesn't matter what you're good at. It doesn't matter anything else for that matter. You're stuck. Why do you think people avoid that? Because people don't like to be told no. Oh, you know, I I tell people all the time, every no gets you closer to a yes. Every no. And I would tell that to myself. I was selling magazines doortodoor, right? And I'd walk. Are you telling me that for $5 a week this wasn't going to improve the education enjoyment of your family? No. Onto the next one. And it's the same selling mask. You know, when I first bought the maps, hey, it's less than a McDonald's. No. You guys suck. Boom. On to the next. Right. You You've just got to be relentless. And most people are afraid of the word no. Are you afraid to give the word no? Because I feel like getting the feedback is really hard. You just give the feedback. I don't like to say no to people. That's my problem. That's why I don't do hiring in my companies because Oh, is that true? Oh, yeah. Cuz I'm awful at hiring people. You're just like, "Come on board." You're amazing. I'm a sales guy, right? So, like, I think I can make this work. What is the truth then in entrepreneurship that no one actually tells you? The truth that no one What's the truth? It's hard. You know, it's it's there's I think you're not automatically going to make money. Most people don't make it. Most people fail. It's hard. Yeah. That's I think what I've seen. And it's interesting actually as you go into the tank because even if you think an idea is a great one and you think it has a market like not everything works out. No. And you can give the funding and it just for I don't know a myriad of reasons might not work. Fail. Most companies. Have you failed? Yeah. Of course I've failed. You You never heard about my powdered milk company? No. When I started out of college? No. Yeah. Not a good one. Not a good one. Doesn't It was cheaper. It didn't matter if it didn't taste like milk. It was powdered milk. All right. Tell me about the powdered milk company cuz Well, I want to know about the failure. I want to know what it what does it mean to fail and get back up and do it again? Like, what is it in you that allows you to take the failure and it not be about you? Damon John says it best. It's the power of broke. If you're broke, what else are you going to do? I mean, I was eating mustard and ketchup sandwiches. I was going to a bar with $5, buying one beer, and eating all the fried mushrooms and the peanuts and whatever [ __ ] they off. Broke is good. Broke is great for a period of your life. Yes. Right. Because you learn. Yeah. Yeah. It's really true. But what have you learned? Do you feel like the failures that you've had, have they amounted to something that you've been able to see like as a pattern in your life? Or is it more just about the the individual circumstance? Because I feel like I could look at every failure I've had and I'm like, it's basically the same thing. I don't know if it was basically the same thing other than maybe the [ __ ] didn't sell, right? It's that powder milk. Oh, it didn't sell. It did not sell. I remember taking samples to people, mixing it up like, "Look, milk's expensive. We're broke, right? This save you money." Mixing it up, trying it, and just seeing the look on their face. No, you can do about that. Point taken. You're like, but it's just you. Your taste in milk is different, right? All right. So, how long? Because this this kind of month how a month. Yeah. About a month. Yeah. But isn't that the thing? At least you didn't try to do that for a year cuz some people just don't know how to sales. It was going nowhere, you know? I know. But people don't always hear that. Don't you think? Like, you must deal with a lot of early stage founders that just don't read the signs. They don't see it. And I think it's really important to talk a bit about failure and to talk about when it's time to pack it in that, you know, I never really thought of it that way, but you're right. You have to have a lot of self-awareness to be an entrepreneur. You have to know what you don't know, unless you know, it's early and but once you get going in particular, you have to know what you suck at and you need to know how to get people to complement your skills. I think a lot of times entrepreneurs think, you know, I I can do it all, which at the beginning you pretty much have to. But as you grow and you're trying to scale your business, if you have any success at all, you need to know what you're you're not good at and you need to find people who complement your skills. And I think one of the mistakes entrepreneurs make sometimes is they won't bring in people with expertise that they don't have to be their startup partners. You know, I'm not going to give up some of my company. You know, the the thing that cracks me about I can't tell you my idea. you might steal it. I'm like, trust me, I won't. I promise you. I'm like, fine, then don't tell me. Next. Yeah. On to the next one. But it's a great question actually, like just to understand the mistake that so many firsttime founders make. And I feel like if I look back at my history, I'm an overly optimistic person. And I feel like I can will anything. Sometimes I'm like, Emma, you can't boil that powdered milk. Like, that's I can sell anything, right? Honestly, and sometimes that will get in your way. But I've learned that about myself and and you learn, right? And but it's okay to bang your head against the wall like that and learn. Yeah. So long as you learn. As long Look, I say this all the time. I shut down. Doesn't matter how many times you fail. You only have to be right one time. Just one time. What are you spending most of your time on now when you, you know, because it's like you're in a whole new stage of your life where you've made decisions that are all about what you want to do and how you want to spend your time. And I'm curious as to your routine, what you do in a day, what you need to get out of a day. Beg my children to spend time with me basically. Please, do you want to hang out? Please, I'll fly you to the game. Whatever. Right. Seriously, it's like, can we go to lunch, Dad? You know, let's go to the It's so if your kids only knew how many people wanted to go to lunch with me, kids figure it out. I know if we go out then I got to deal with people, right? That's true. You know, and so I feel bad for them on that end of it. It's like I always have to have the conversation, you know, if your friends get drunk and screw up. Nobody cares. You're my kid. It's going to be on the front page. Sorry kids. Yeah. That that's the responsibility you bear. And sometimes they don't want to go out. They'll go, I'll go with mom, but I don't want to deal with the dad. And you know, that's kind of heartbreaking. Yes. I can imagine that that really is heartbreaking, actually. It's really difficult for them. But that's really what you're optimizing for to spend time with your kids. Yeah. And like I said, and the AI stuff, I mean, I really get into it obviously. And it's like, you know, knowledge truly is power and knowing how to use these tools is everything. It is going to be everything. When someone asks you what you do now, what do you even say? Um, I do a lot of emails from all the different companies I've got and we haven't talked about cost plusddrugs.com yet, right? That's a big Well, I really wanted to ask you about cost plusdrugs.com. I mean, I mean, are you Okay, so this is this was my thing, Mark, because I um I know you're a very political person and I saw I mean, Mark Cuban like I saw you out. I thought first of all, I do not understand why you're not the president of this country and and I I know everybody asks you, but are you 100% sure? Yeah. You're not gonna run. I wouldn't put my kids through it. Really? You're not going to run for president just for us that need you. Just for just for me asked me really nicely. No, just for my whole family that are like, you know, don't you want? I know. I get asked every day. Is it every day that much? Lots of times a day. Yeah. Okay, fine. Then I won't bug you back. But you've really considered it hard. Yeah, for a while I did. Yeah. It's just not for you. Yeah. My whole life I never got into because you do you have the feeling that if you run you would win. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. I know that may sound arrogant. It's not arrogant. I think it's a fact. It's like I could guarantee I would bet on you and Michelle Obama. Boom. As the president, Michelle's better suited than I am, but I mean, I don't think she necessarily wants to do that. We won't speak on her behalf. I I think if even if you wanted it, you'd have it. I mean, I the running part would be fun, you know, but just every but just the [ __ ] my family would go through. Yeah. Yeah. If I was single, Yeah. I would do it, you know. If my kids were 40 years old, I would do it. Different. Well, there's still time. Your kids will be 41 of these days. One of these days. Just saying. Just saying. All right. Back to cost blood drugs because I saw that President Trump had made this announcement about leveling the the cost of, you know, prescription drugs, right? And so it immediately made me think of you. Is that problematic for your business? No, it's great. It is. It is great. Yes. So, let's say what cost plus drugs does. Please tell me. So, nobody Everybody likes their doctors and all that stuff, but nobody likes the financial side of healthcare. It's a mess, right? You have to deal with benefits and all that stuff. And there's no upside. Well, as an English person, we still don't understand it. You know that we we get eye drops for4 gives you everything. I could I will never understand what it costs in America to get like something that for my entire life I've taken totally for granted. Well, it may be cheaper over here now. Here's through cost plus drugs. Um, so anyways, nobody likes the financial side because you don't know what anything costs. There's no transparency. So, we created costbusts.com. And so you go to cost plus, you put in the name of the medication. We don't carry them all yet. Um we've got like 2500 different SKs. And if we carry it up, it pops up, right? Like your eye drops. And then we'll show you our actual cost. And then we'll show you our markup, which is 15%. And you have your choice of mail order. If it's mail order, it's $5 for the pharmacist, $5 for shipping and handling. Shows up in a couple days. Or you can go to a local pharmacy if if we're that's it, right? But by being transparent, we change the game. By only having a 15% markup, people trust us. Like I read this thing one time and I I firmly I hold I hold firmly stick by it now. Trust equals transparency divided by self-interest, right? Wow. That's like how much are you doing for yourself or how much you doing for your customers basically, right? And the So our markup Say that one more time for me, Mark. That's so good. Trust equals it's a formula. Trust equals transparency. How transparent are you on a scale of one to 10? Cost plus drugs is a 10, right? And then self-interest. How much do you put yourself ahead of your customers or how much you put your customers first? That's really powerful for our markup is only 15%. People like that's fair, right? So you get to see the total cost right there and we publish our full price list. And so by doing that, we've just exploded and we've changed people's lives. And you know, on the my professional side, I mean, there's nothing more rewarding. I get emails all the time. I can't imagine. You know, I was going to spend $900 on this medication for my cancer and um I couldn't afford it. I go to cost plus drugs and it's $21. I mean, or you save me $15,000 a month, right? It's insane. And so, you know, cost plus drugs comes along and we've just been around for three years. So, now let's tie it back to what the administration's doing. They want the cost of medications to be the same as they are overseas. Well, on generics, which is most of our um SKs, we're already cheaper. Like most of the generics that you would have to buy in the UK, we're cheaper. Go to Canada, we're cheaper just because the way generics are structured. But for brandame drugs, it's a mess, right? And so the there's these things called pharmacy benefit managers that are the middlemen who are keeping the big farmer manufacturers from working with us because they know if we introduce transparency, it'll screw up the game for them. It's over. So now with the stuff from the administration and wanting to match those prices, now the manufacturers of those brands, they're they think they can get out from under the thumb of these middlemen, the pharmacy benefit managers, and work directly with us. And I think it'll happen. It looks like it'll happen. So, if that happens, a lot of these brand medication prices, they're going to tumble. I mean, it's a win-win for consumers, basically. For sure. And why did you choose this category for a new business? Because it's kind of outside of everything that you've done in technology and Yeah. Because I mean, I saw an opportunity to disrupt something that's really [ __ ] up. It's really [ __ ] up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, we're trying to simplify it through transparency. Like for my employees, there's no co-pays. for my employee. If you do your stuff through our network, right? If you do your stuff, if you buy your drugs through cost plus drugs, there's no co-pay. We pay for all of it. And now we're setting up this direct contracting with hospitals and doctors and everything. And I can get all that stuff to you guys. Um so that there's no out of pocket for our employees for anything that we cover. There's no pre-authorizations at all, right? Because we've because we're willing to work directly with the hospitals and cut out the middlemen. We pay them a lot less. We just pay them upfront. It's it's serious. They seriously impressive and it's pretty noble actually to be doing this at this stage. And I'm not doing it to make money, right? I don't need the money, but the whole idea of [ __ ] up healthcare. I mean, that's exciting. That's fun, right? I love that you always come back to fun. That's going to be my big takeout from you, actually, because it's all about you having fun in whatever you're doing. Feel good, right? Like when you see somebody wearing your stuff. Oh, it nothing makes me happier. Also, nothing makes my husband happy because what happens to us in restaurants is that people come up and they flash us. you know, they go ski and you know, he kind of puts his head down and pretends he's looking at dinner. I'm like, "This is working out really well for you, right?" That's basically my life right now. People just flashing me their bras. Perfect. Um, I wonder if you have any regrets at all because you've done so many things, so many impressive things. Is there something that you missed or something that Yeah, there's lots of stuff that I missed, right? You don't dwell. Yeah, I mean, I don't really dwell on it. I try to learn from it, just not repeat it. I wasn't nice enough when I was first getting started, you know. I literally had one of my partners say, "People are afraid of you, you know. I didn't listen all the time, you know, because I was focused on doing what I was focused on, you know, and so I missed things and, you know, that negatively impacted people who worked for me." Um, so there there's a lot of mistakes that I've made and you just that's just inevitable, you know. Um, you know, and and I wish I could have done it differently and if I had to do it all over again, I would do it differently. But it's it's done and I try to learn from it. But you really have learned from it because if and I mean this in all seriousness, you are one of the nicest people I know. One of the most you know me well but you just don't see me when I'm like [ __ ] you. Don't do that. I hope I never see you like that. No, I don't do that. Those days are gone. But I used to. But it but it must it must be something that you've really decided like I'm going to be a nice guy cuz that really is who you are now. People would rather work with you if you're nice. Of course. I mean, I've always taken the opposite point of view because I feel like, you know, you get you get more with honey. Like, you're just going to be nice and like people are going to do more for you. They're going to be nicer to you with people that piss them off or they an [ __ ] Um, I'm really interested because you talk about your kids so much and I wonder what you're teaching them. That's a good question. Sometimes it feels like nothing. They're good kids. I mean, I've got to say, my kids are really good. Um, my oldest is a junior in college. Um, my middle's graduating, um, from just graduating from high school last week. And my son, my youngest, is going to be a sophomore in high school. And so, they know everything obviously. Yes, they do. And I'm trying to like just be there as much as I can and participate as much as I can or as much as they'll let me, you know? So, I don't mind sofa soing my son wherever he needs to go or driving, you know, if any of my kids wants to do something, you know, unless I just humanly can't, the answer is yes. And so, um, yeah, that that to me, other than cost plus, you know, learning and doing what I do professionally, but familywise, just trying to, you know, spend as much time with my kids and family. Um I am because I spent such a long time um sitting next to you and trying to extrapolate bits of information. I thought it would be remiss not for me to try something today. And so I feel like I'm in a bit of a chapter change. I've always looked at my life. It's like I have my consultant life. I have my like, you know, business uh starting businesses life and now I'm in a bit of a different chapter. And I wonder what you would say to somebody like me given everything that you've learned. What chapter are you in? Well, you know, it's an interesting one because I feel like, you know, I love what I do. I really, really do. I love these businesses, but I'm definitely at the stage where working kind of 16-hour days and filling every 40inut, you know, section of my right. It's it's really it's really difficult. And I'm in the time of my life, you know, I have a 11year-old and an 8-year-old and twin three year olds. And so I'm looking for very purposefully for a different type of rhythm to my day. Certainly not to say I'm going into retirement because no, I get that right. No, I know exactly more business into me, but a different rhythm like more opportunity to indulge in the things that I love and also share the things that I already know the answer. You got to learn how to trust. You've heard this before probably a lot, right? Because when you're really, really, really good at something and you know it takes more time to convey it to somebody and wait for their answer and then explain what you want, you just want to do it yourself. Let's just get it done, right? Because we've got other [ __ ] to do. And so I, like I said, I suck at hiring. And so I had to get help with having somebody that I trusted to hire the people that I know we needed, even if it meant, you know, turning over that person multiple times. Yeah. because you've got to find you. You've got to find your mini me and be able to trust them. So hard. It is really hard. It's so hard. Especially when it's a go go go go business. Um but that's what you got to do because otherwise you're doomed to 16 hours a day forever. Forever. Yeah. And it doesn't stop. And it doesn't need to be a magic pull. And what I've always tried to do and like I said, I don't really hire, but I I'm good at promoting people, right? and starting with somebody, getting to know them and trying to, you know, get them into new skills that they can grow with and I can grow with them. So that you know, who was the one person that caught your attention in one of those hours in that 16- hour day that can deal with that issue that you can train or support or they can just tag along with you till they get there and you trust them. Yes. And but and then you've got to be honest with them. Here's why I'm doing it. It may or may not work. And if it doesn't work, doesn't mean I'm going to fire you, but you may be disappointed that you're not that person the way I need that person to be. Yeah. No knock on you. You know, this is just a very specific role that I need. That's what you got to do because it's hard hard in your situation where you've gotten like this and now you got to fight to fight. Every day is a fire because whenever you see this for even a day or you can't you're like then you have to go fully back in. It's right and it's just like what the [ __ ] going on? Yeah. And it's exhausting. And it is exhausting because you have people that gave you money and now you're responsible to them and they're trying to get their ROI and they want to know why this isn't happening and you've got your budgets and it's driving you crazy that you've got a budget that somebody else is also wants to know instead of just you know feel like you've been here before Mark right and it's just like but you took that money right you took that money you got to make money have a result that's just it but it's a great lesson for an entrepreneur and for founders because if you don't trust people you can't grow like there's no one where you are in your life cycle, right? Everybody's got it is it's all about where you are, right? Because individually you have a life cycle literally like what you can tolerate and what you've done and what you've accomplished and the riskreward for your time because your time value goes like this as you get older and the money if you made enough money it starts to you know unless you're a person that just needs more and more and more and I don't get that sense right so now it's about your time but it's also about the obligation because I always say raising money isn't an accomplishment it's an obligation it's an obligation and so ain't that the truth right and so now you have this obligation And so the good news about it in having it is that you know and like you said industries go in phases and you still have to find those people who help you adapt to the next phase you know so what's hot and what's next and you know for Gen Z and you know the 15 year olds are going to be different than the 25 year olds and so trying to find those people that's that's the challenge and that become that you know here I am trying to give you right but that's the part you got to figure out how to conquer How do you hire those people to put you in that position? And what's the learning process to get there? Yes. To be able to do it because if you don't do it, you already know what happens. Yeah. You're you're doomed. You're stuck. You implode. You're stuck. Yeah. Yeah. And it's really interesting because I feel like one of the things that I spend the most time on is hiring because it is when you get a person that comes into your business and you can truly trust them, it's like an unlock, right? You're like, and hopefully they're teaching you. When you get people that are really and the worst part is if you make a mistake then it's the worst thing ever because it's a reflection on you that you did it wrong and then everybody else knows it's wrong and you make mistakes all the time and it doesn't matter. I make mistakes all the time. Every year there's a handful of people that I'm like this is just not going to work and they were good somewhere else and they have the experience and on paper they were amazing and they were fully vetted and d but it doesn't work out. For whatever reason it doesn't work out. That's when I talk about you got to kill your darlings. Like just done, get it done. Oh yeah, you always uh high or slow, fire fast. That's the one, ain't it? Just and you adjust. Um I wonder what is left in your life for you to accomplish. Oh, I'm just getting started. Do you feel like that? Yeah, of course. Yeah. Jo, don't let the wrinkles fool you. All right. I love that. You feel like you're just getting started. Yeah. Like I get these, you know, these requests. We want to give you a lifetime achievement award in tech. We want to give you an honor for this. I'm like, [ __ ] no. I don't. Yeah. I'm like, "No, I'm not taking awards." Like, I'm taking two awards. Um, and I always say no to the rest. I just don't do awards because I'm just getting started. What is it that tells you you're just getting started when you're so accomplished? What can be left for you to where's what's fun? Disrupting industries is fun. fixing healthcare is going could be amazing enough then I got a lot of work to do there because I we have a path on pharmacy and I think I have a path on fixing the healthcare side of it too right amen to that I mean sign me up yeah you know and you connect me with your HR I'll be I'll be your guinea pig I mean I am ready for it the things I'm doing for my companies the eat your own dog food stuff yeah I'll turn you on to all yeah we we really really doing that though right I mean but that's where your ambition lies in like really changing disrupting inventories but in industries industries but having fun is important to you at this point. I mean yeah because it's rewarding you know I'm competitive in everything you know but I stick to things I can be good at. Yeah. Well that's that that's the pattern in everything that you've done right. You found what you've been really good at and you've just gone deeper and deeper into it and had more and more focus. I read uh last week or maybe it was the week before that you'd started a big sports fund now. Yeah. What is your plan there? So Harbinger is with a guy Rashan Williams who was a guest shark. Amazing. So he came to me. Yeah. And he was like, "Hey, we want to do this fund. Would you help?" I'm like, "Sure, for sure. That's right up your alley, right? So I can help." You sold the Mavs now. What's that? You sold the Mavs now. I still have 27%. But I don't have controlling interest. Oh, is that hard for you, Mark? Cuz that's not the way it was supposed to be. But that's a whole another conversation. I mean, we've had this conversation. I was like, "Did you Yeah, especially like Yeah, there was the first Luca game. It was the first Luca game that we were at." And I was like, you were me. I was giving you [ __ ] because I was like, I think this was not good. I think this was not a good move. You're like, what do you know? And all of LA is just like, thanks, Mark. I was like, I'm going to ask the question that everybody wants to know. I was like, did you know? And why did you do that? I didn't know. And I didn't. And I was supposed to be in charge of it, but yeah, you know, he gave me a lot of money and changed his mind, so I kept the money. What are you going to do? Well, thank you. We're happy to have him. That's all I can say. But go back to the sports fund for me. It's not too Yeah, it's not too hurtful. Um but no, so what we want to do is um minority interest in sports franchises are hard to sell sometimes. And so we just want to create um a marketplace, a vibrant marketplace with some transparency for anybody in a major sports franchise who maybe they're, you know, their families have owned it for 30 years and they own 1% or 5%. So it's more for minority ownerships, not to try to get control. Interesting. Yeah, that's Are you spending a lot of time on that? No, not a lot. I just answer more fun for you. Yeah, I just answer questions and connect people. Yeah, I love that. It's just I mean it feels like you're never you're never going to stop. Do you ever think that there'll be a day when you're like I'm just going to pack it up and I'm just not working. It's not work. It's not work. Will you ever stop thinking about all this stuff? we ever stop seeing something and never because I really do genuinely love it and I imagine I'm just going to like keel over one day like mid well you know and it's just about allocating your time right so um I don't have to go into an office and spend 14hour days worrying about the furniture whatever right it's just like I do almost everything via email and some Zooms right so I'm meeting with pharmacy companies over Zoom and whoever and I mean literally there's not a minute of it that I don't love. Like it's it sounds great. It is fun for me like to learn all this pharmacy [ __ ] and people are like, "Wait, you're the Shark Tank guy. You're not supposed to know all this." I'm like, "It's important. I put in the time and I learned it." And then how do you apply AI to all this and learn all this stuff for our manufacturing so that we can be the lowest cost provider versus everyone else in the world? Stuff is fun. you know, once, like you were saying, once you find something that you love to do and it's fun, just keep on doing it or finding new applications. So, you know, I don't see a reason to stop any of the stuff that I like to do. Why would you? Well, honestly, I um I'm so happy to speak to you because I just think that you are one of the most inspiring, honest people. And I honest from the day that I first met you, I was like, this Mark guy is like all that he cracks up to be. You're the You're the least disappointing person in the world. Let's say that. That's okay. That's a hell of a scale to be on. But that's a great compliment because everybody you ever meet, you know, you build them up in your head. And trust me, if you knew everything. Yeah. Trust me, if you knew everything. Look, tell me. I've got I've had enough. No, but like we all do, right? We all do dumb [ __ ] We all do dumb [ __ ] No, but it, you know, it's really interesting, Mark, because I think that success does funny things to people. And it's amazing when you can be as open and as giving and still have these like really big aspirations to make things, you know, to have your fun, but to make things better. I think it's really impressive. Do this and what? It's the best. It's the best in the world. It's the best ever. The least disappointing podcast I've ever done. I'll take it. I'll definitely take it. I've only got rapid fire for you now. All right. The first thing you do when you wake up and the last thing you do before you go to bed, please take a [ __ ] I didn't know we were going to get that honesty. That is so true. I'm going to give you person who is ever going to say that. I'm going to run a compilation of these [ __ ] I was like, I could tell her what I normally say, but that would be no fun. Manifesting, meditating. Yeah. Like, check my emails, whatever. No, take a [ __ ] Damn right. Literally the best. I should have asked that question last cuz now we can't recover. This is what I mean. Like, you're the best. Who would say that? And this is what we need. A president that just like does that, Mr. President. Mr. President, you guys lactose intolerant. Got to go. Amazing. Okay, that is amazing. Um, what are you currently aspiring for in your business life and in your personal life? Um, personal life, just more time with my kids, you know, just with them wanting me instead of me dragging it. And and professional um just [ __ ] up the healthcare industry and really changing it in this country. What's a book that changed your life? It's good. Probably several of the Iron Ran books like The Fountain Head was big. Um, couple of her books. Yeah. No, any of those. Yeah. Like Howard Ror was like my role model. He was like a guy in her books that just didn't care what other people thought. Just focused on learning and trying to be the best he could be in his mind. And so that that kind of model like a lot of people think well that's you know too lzair and too libertarian but that part didn't matter. It was just like this was a guy was just like all about not caring and just going for it. Love that. Clearly role model. Um what is something you valued when you were starting out that you don't anymore? Probably status. You know I remember after I sold my first company going into bars thinking to myself I'm richer than you. I'm richer than you. I'm richer than you. You know, just dumb [ __ ] that guys You mean you don't walk into bars thinking that anymore? I already know. Oh, all right. Something that you value now that you didn't back in the days. Kindness, empathy, probably the most. Yeah. I I wasn't real empathetic at all when I was first getting started. It was just like go go go go go go. If you're in my way, get the [ __ ] out of my way. M that was it. And now, you know, then I went literally kicking. But, you know, but now it was just like, okay, I'm sorry. Let me see if I can help you. It's this isn't a fit. That isn't a fit. But, you know, if I can answer any questions or do anything for you, I'm happy to. Thank you, Mark. You're the best. That was great. I really enjoyed it. It was really, really good. Thanks for joining me on the Aspire podcast. For more strategies on how to build the life of your dreams, be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel. [Music] Hey, [Music] hey, [Music] hey. [Music]