Transcript for:
Matt McCabe 2024

It's been 12 months since a quiddle and so much has passed us by such a blatant flat out [Music] lies. There's a special new proctor and Hank Breeden is his name. He is a dirty Boston lawyer and his arguments are lame. He's tried to squash all of our experts as he has no case to claim. He should have won an Oscar medal to convince the court he's sane. He can lie without a conscience and keep that smirk upon his face. I bet he wears those silky undies, the ones with that jing made of lace. And just liberally canon is so biased for the state is waiting through 100 motions in a rush to seal my fate. So you can bring in Massachusetts cuz we all ain't got no quit. And we all know that the truth is my car is not the thing. [Music] [Applause] Did anyone happen to see, hear, or read anything about this case since we left yesterday? No. Everyone said no or shook their heads. Thank you very much. May we have Mr. This raise your hand. I do. All right, Mr. Lai, whenever you're ready. Thank you, good morning, sir. Good morning. Where um left off yesterday, you had gone to bed on the 28th, correct? Uh yes, that's correct. Friday night. And at some point, you woke up on the later in the morning on the 29th, correct? Yes. Uh Saturday morning. And uh do you recall, sir, what uh what awoke you on that morning? Yes, I do. What was that? Uh I awoke to um the screaming of Jen, Jen, Jen. So when I woke up, I thought there was somebody in my bedroom. I kind of snapped up out of bed. What the hell's going on? Looking around the room, realized my wife was actually on the phone. And the screaming that you heard, how loud was that? It was loud enough to wake me up from a dead sleep. I could hear it. It was loud. Um, obviously I was laying in bed and realizing after my wife was laying right next to me uh on the phone, but it was a it was a loud Jen, Jen, Jen. It was repetitive. And uh do you know approximately what time that was? Uh yeah, shortly before 5:00 a.m. And did you recognize the voice that that you heard scream? I did not recognize the voice. And uh as far as that phone conversation went on for Well, let me ask this first. As far as that phone conversation was concerned, could you hear uh both sides of that conversation? Uh yes, I could. And that was based on volume of the person speaking on the other end. Correct. Correct. And eventually were able to recognize or identify voice on the other end of your wife's conversation. Yes. I asked my wife, "What the hell is going after I woke up and popped up looking around the room to find out who's in my bedroom, assuming it was a kid, one of my kids screaming?" Um I asked my wife, "What is going on?" And I could hear her saying, "I'm on the phone with Karen. She can't find John. And from the course of um that conversation continued while you were in your bedroom. Is that correct? Uh yeah, that conversation continued for a couple minutes. I could hear the dialogue. Um and then again right back to Jen, Jen, Jen, the repeating of my wife's name. Uh again, as far as the the dialogue was concerned, specifically from the defendant Reed's perspective, what what if anything do you recall about that? Um, she didn't know where John was and the last time she saw him was at the waterfall. And about how long did that initial phone call or that initial conversation between the wife and attendant go on? From when I woke up, minute, minute and a half, two minutes, I I don't know the exact time. Um, and after you recall how that conversation ended or your wife hang up or uh, yes, they hung up the phone. Um, I was laying in the bed. My wife was next to me and I think my wife immediately called somebody else was calling uh friends that lived near the waterfall that happened to be out that evening and she started making those phone calls. And as your wife was making those phone calls, what if anything did you say to her? What if anything did he say to her? Yes. To No, I'm not going to let you testify to that. Next question. With respect to uh the defendant's statement the last time she saw uh the Mr. O'Keefe was at the waterfall. Um what if anything what if anything occurred to you in reference to that? In reference to her saying she last saw him at the waterfall. I then told my wife what are you talking about? So I I'll not what you said sir but I think we asked you what you thought. Yeah. I thought she was crazy. And why was that? because I saw her vehicle I saw the black SUV arrive to the um 34 veview that morning. So you had overheard the conversation prom your wife the night previous correct that's correct and so what happened then I I told my wife what are you talking about who she was that it's not what you said to your wife all right sorry it's hard question Mr. so that he can answer it properly. Uh so your wife your wife made some phone calls in your presence, correct? Yes, she did. And um following those phone conversations, what if any other conversations did she have with the defendant? Um there were multiple calls. I don't recall what calls were made, what time, but the next call we were informing the defendant that wait, we saw your car. We saw you come to 34 Fair View. You you guys were there. And I heard the response of I don't remember. I don't remember going there. And with any other conversation you recall in those subsequent phone conversations that you overheard at um some moment um as I said my wife had made a couple phone calls in one of the calls with Karen Reed. She alerted that she broke her tail light, cracked her tail light, something to that effect while we were um while Jen and I were still in the bedroom and she was on the phone. And as uh your wife and you were in the bedroom and your wife was on the phone, what if anything were the two of you doing? Um after my wife had made a few calls, we were completely confused on where hell John was. Um the thought process in our head at that moment was we knew that John had mentioned that he was potentially going to be be meeting up with another person. So, we called that individual. My wife called that individual to see if by chance again confused, left at the waterfall. We saw them at the house. Did John not go with her? Did Did what happened? Did he get out of the car? Did he go somewhere else? So, we um proceeded to call a couple other people that we thought he possibly might have uh met up with another individual. From those other phone calls that you observed your wife making, at any point in time, other than a conversation with the defendant, did did you observe her to have any conversation with anybody? You're asking if my wife did. What I'm asking is not to any content or anything like that, but the wife made phone calls. Correct. That is correct. And when she made those phone calls, did you observe her conversing with anybody on the phone? No, she did not speak to anybody. Um, nobody nobody answered any of our calls. And at some point, did you yourself reach out to Mr. Yes, I did. How did you do that? I I know I texted him and I think I called him as well. Um, pretty much where the hell are you? I think it was when um Karen Reed and my wife left the were leaving my house. I think I responded, "Where the hell are you now?" Karen and Jenn are out looking for you. And in regard to those text messages, did you receive any response from Mr. O'Keefe? I did not. And uh with regard to those, you had Mr. O'Keefe programmed into your phone. Is that correct? Yes, I did. And you would have had prior conversations with him via text message and phone uh using that uh number that you had programmed into your phone? Yes. So, no response to the attacks as far as a phone call to you to place Mr. O'Keefe. Did he answer? Did you speak with him at all? I did not speak to Mr. O'Keefe. Now, um at some point, do you and your wife proceed downstairs? Uh my wife proceeded downstairs. I remained in the bedroom. And uh what is um what is the next thing you remember that? Um well, I was getting dressed. I put my jeans on. My wife went downstairs. She was going to make a coffee. Uh my wife and I were proceeding to leave. we were going to leave our house and um make a drive to the house of the gentleman that my wife was calling that we possibly thought uh John could have met up with. Um and within that moment, again, I don't know the exact time, I then heard um yelling out in my front yard. And when you heard the yelling in the front yard, I realized it was uh can't read. And I told my wife to please tell her to shut up. She's going to wake up the whole neighborhood. And where is this or when is this in relation to that first phone call when you sort of shoot up out of it? At least a half hour, give or take. Again, I don't know the exact time. Now, at any point after you hear the yelling out front, uh, you hear the defendant yelling out front. What What was she yelling at that? Um, she again repeated, "Jen, Jen." She She for some reason kept repeating my wife's name. Um, I don't know if she got all the way to my doorway or my wife walked out, but my wife had said I was actually relieved because I was like, not again, not thinking what happened to John happened to John. I was thinking he was on somebody's couch. Um, so I was like, good, I'm not going to look for him, thinking my wife was going to go, my wife said she is going to go with Karen to go uh find John. And at any point in time that morning uh when the defendant arrived at the house, did you did you actually go outside or look outside or I did not go outside? I did look out the blinds of my bedroom window, which is the closest to the driveway. What if anything did you see when you looked out? Uh saw Karen's car in my driveway. Did you see defendants read anywhere outside? Um I don't I don't recall physically seeing her. I saw the vehicle. I don't recall seeing her directly making any physical contact as far as seeing her. What if any concerns did you have uh in reference to your wife going out with with Miss Reed at that particular time? I had mentioned to my wife um before she was leaving the house that the I'll allow this. What were your concerns? My concerns were um she was going to be driving with Miss Reed in their vehicle, Miss Reed's vehicle. And my concerns were that she had a broken tail light. What I thought by a broken tail light was that her tail light was out, meaning there was no light. Um and I didn't think it was a bright idea to be driving around with no physical light on the tail light. Particularly given the weather. Is that fair? Because of the weather. Correct. And so um your wife then leaves the retreat. Is that correct? That is correct. Do you know have to see like who got in where as far as car who was driving when they got? I did not see that. No. Now was that within the same time frame as you were describing before about half hour after you hear the initial call? Uh yes. uh from when um from Miss Reed arriving at my house was yes half hour or so after the initial call and it wasn't long after before they proceeded to go to leave. Now at this time that you're looking out um from the blinds you see the the defendant's car and the defendant outside. Was it light out? Was it dark out? What what are we talking about? It was dark out. And so they leave and you're home uh with your four children. Correct. That is correct. And when was the next time uh that you spoke to your wife? Um the next time I spoke to my wife was hour later. Um I received a phone call from her. I don't I don't know the exact time, but I'm going to say about an hour hour. So, and without reference to much of the content of that, all I'm really asking for is what if any indication did she give you as to where she was? Um she indicated they found John and um at uh Fair View. And upon receiving that information, where did you go? I proceeded to finish getting dressed um and drove over to uh Fair View. And when you got to Fairview, what if anything did you see when you arrive? When I got to Fair View, I had come down through the Chapman Street entrance. And as I proceeded down the hill towards the uh Albert residence, I noticed all the uh first responders, fire engine, etc., police cars. U and I realized I was not going to be able to get to the Albert residence because it was all blocking um the street. So I backtracked, turned around, went back up Fair View to the top to Chapman, took a left and took a left down Spring Lane, which is a parallel street to Fair View, and came down Spring Lane to Cedar Crest on to Fair View so I could get to the Albert household. Now during your drive from your home over to Fair View and and ling all that sort of turning around and coming back around the other way, what were the roads like? It was it was snowing. uh careful driving and the snowing that you observed that morning when you drove from your house to Fairview, what was that like in relation to the snowing that you observed when you were driving home from Fairview hours before? Uh much much thicker snow, much more snow on the ground, much more snow to wipe off my car. Um and again, I had I had to drive slow. Now, when you come around to sort of the other side as far as the first responders, you mentioned police cruisers and a fire truck. Is that right? Uh yeah, there might have been an ambulance there as well, but yes. Do you recall specifically seeing an ambulance? I do recall seeing an ambulance. I don't know if I saw it when I came down or if I saw it when I eventually parked the car, but I do recall seeing an ambulance. And when you parked the car, where did you go? I um proceeded onto Fair View and I parked the car um along the side of the road um because there was another vehicle um in front of me. I believe the other vehicle might have been blocking the driveway, but there was another vehicle right on the right on the side of the road as well. Now, in addition to uh the other vehicles as far as cruisers, firet truck or whatever from first responders, what if any other vehicles, who if anyone else did you see outside? Um there was a um there was a it ended up being Kerry Roberts's vehicle was parked um as I was at the driveway, Ford Explorer, I think it was. And again, without any reference to the content of the conversation, did you have any conversation with Miss Roberts at that time? Yes, I did. Did you know Miss Robert at that time? I knew who she was. Um, didn't really have a relationship with her, but I knew who she was. And how did you know who she was? Um, friends through the town. Um, she did live in the Ponapog neighborhood, though I believe she moved in and we moved out shortly after. I don't know the actual time period. Um, her kids were a couple years younger. One one was one year younger than my child. So, I knew who her child was through through being the greed um beneath my youngest child through soccer. And just to be clear, when you talk about the Pankabog neighborhood, that's where you used to live on Suckliff and where Mr. O'Keefe used to live in the house that was def. Yes, that's correct. Um, so then after um conversation with Miss Roberts about how long that conversation Oh, that that was a brief conversation. Um, she informed me that she had to she was going to pick up the um well, sorry. She informed me Karen was going she dropping she was dropping Karen off Karen off back at the house. She was going to the hospital and she was going to pick up um John's parents in Brainree. I uh I told her I would come with her to pick up the parents. Like I said, the road conditions were pretty bad and um you know, just for safety reasons, I thought I would go with her, help her um go pick up the parents. Um she informed me that Jen was in the house. Um Jen is waiting to be interviewed by the police. So, where did you go from there? I then proceeded to the uh front door of 34 Fair View. And when you got inside, who if anyone was inside when you got When I got to the front door, um it was my wife, uh Brian Albert, Nicole Albert, and um Officer Link. And when you came in, can you describe um starting with your wife, Jennifer McKay, can you describe her demeanor when you first uh came into the house? Um shocked. Just face was drawn. Just kind of in awe. the the whole all three of them were just looking like you know with a drawn face of I'm walking in going what the hell is going on and and just to be clear by all three of them you mean your wife Brian Albert Nicole Albert correct and just turning back briefly to the the phone conversation that you had from your wife which led you to come over you how would you describe her demeanor on that phone call as well um Matt we found of you it was a quick conversation I didn't get any details Now at some point um while you were at the house uh did you speak to uh you mentioned officer link was there is that correct? That's correct. If there was any other officers uh in the house at that time or at any later time at that moment it was just officer of lank at that moment. Um other officers came uh in the house a little later but at that moment it was just offic. And at some point uh while you were at the house, did you have any conversation or what if any conversation did you have with Officer Lank or any other officers? Uh yes, Officer Lank asked me to step outside. Um and we spoke briefly. He asked me about um if I knew what happened to John. Obviously, I told him no. I had no idea. I'm just finding out right now. Um he asked me when I last saw John. I told him I saw him at the waterfall. We saw him at the bar. Um, Vince Keenum, I believe, again, heat of the moment. I believe I said we saw his vehicle out front, but we never saw John. Now, at the uh the house on Fairview, about how long were you there that morning? I'm going to say give or take at least four hours from the time that you got there. From the time I got there, yes. And where did you go from there? When I left Fairview, um I went back to my house on uh Jen and I's house home. Um and your children were still there. Is that correct? My children were all there. Correct. And at some point after you arrived home, uh if anyone else as far as police officers or anybody like that came came to your home that day. Um two um mass state police officers um came to my house. And um did you speak with those officers? Yes, I did. troopers from the state police. Correct. Yes, that's correct. And as far as the troopers that you spoke to, do you recall what their names were? Uh, yes. Um, trooper Michael Proctor and trooper Yuri Buchanan, if I said it right. Closer closer. Um, now on that uh on that day of January 29, 2022, had you met either Proctor or before? I had never met them. And where did they speak with you in the house? Uh well, they first came in the house and um informed me they were going to interview my wife uh and asked me to leave the room. I went up to my bedroom. And at some point uh did they interview you as well? Yes, they did. And where was your wife when they interviewed you? I'm assum I think she wasn't in the room with me. I think she went upstairs. Um as I said, my kids were home. I don't know if she went in the kids' bedroom to kind of wake them up. And I don't know what she was in the room when they interviewed you, right? No, she was not. And in addition to the the troopers came over to your house. Did your brother-in-law Brian Albert? Did he come over at any point in time around this? Yes, he did. And if you know, did he speak with those troopers as well? Yes, he did. And where were you and your wife when the two troopers were speaking to Mr. Albert? I was still upstairs in the bedroom. Your wife? Where was she? I'm try. She might have come up seen me, but I think she might have went in the girls' bedroom. I I don't recall if we were standing in the same room. I think she might have went in my daughter's bedroom. Again, my kids were starting to, you know, I don't know the exact time. 12:00, give or take. So, time to wake up. The troopers when they were speaking to Brian Albert Sior, they were in the downstairs area of the home. Yes, they were. And both you and your wife were upstairs. Yes, it's my recollection. Now, turn your attention to a couple days later. Did you speak with any other troopers? I did. I only remember the first name of one of them. Um, it was a it was a it was a man and a woman. I just remember Connor Connor something. I don't know. I don't know their names. And where did that conversation occur? I was in my first floor um dining room table. And do you know if those same two troopers that came on subsequent dates spoke with the wife as well? Yes, they did. And sort of same arrangement as far as where you were, where she was at the time that you spoke to those two troopers. Uh yes, that's correct. I have a moment. Sure. just uh briefly, sir. So, um describing your wife's uh demeanor, you described her sort of being in shock. Is that correct? Yes, that's correct. Have you seen your wife um display that kind of demeanor before or have you seen your wife in in sort of crisis mode over the course of your relationship and your marriage? Um I I've seen her in um crisis mode. I would call it crisis mode um as well in the past. And sort of typically how would you describe how she handles situations like that or what her demeanor is in those types of situations? She is um very calm. Very calm. And when just so it's clear for the jury. So, when we're talking about sort of prior incidents in regard to sort of crisis motives, what what types of scenarios, what types of incidents are we talking? Well, allow um u previous deaths deaths of uh my parents, my brother. Um she is the she's the one that can get in the room, sit, relax, hold their hand, um make the make them feel comfortable. Um she's much more I can't do that. She's much more so she's done that with my family and she's also done that with our neighbor. Nothing further. Thank you, sir. All right, Miss Jetti. Thank you. How are you? Good morning, Mr. MC. Good morning. I'd like to start by discussing uh January 22nd, the week prior to January 29th. Uh do you remember that Saturday? Yes, I do. Uh you had uh been at one of your daughter's hockey games that day if if it's the Saturday before I was saying. Yes. Yes, I was. Uh and you wound up going to the hillside in camp. Correct. That is correct. You went with your wife uh Jennifer McCabe. Yes. When you got there, you saw Karen Reed and John O'Keefe there together. Correct. I was there previous to them, but yes, I I saw them there. Yes. Eventually, I saw them there. I I should have phrased the question that ultimately you ran into John and Karen together. Correct. Yes, I did. Uh, and when you, uh, came in contact with them, you and your wife and Brian Albert and his wife Nicole, who's your sister-in-law, uh, hung out with Karen Reed and John O'Keeffe? Correct. Uh, yes. It was a big group of people hanging out together. Correct. There were other people in addition to the ones that I've just named. Yes, they were. Uh, so you were with uh, John and Karen for maybe around an hour or so that night of January 22nd. I'd say I don't know exactly what time they um arrived, but yes, I'd say they were there for at least an hour. And during that hour span of time, uh they uh appeared to be uh enjoying each other's company. Yes. And uh the two of them had arrived together. Correct. They walked in together. Yes. And there were no uh problems that night that you could see between John and Karen. Correct. That Yes, I did not see any problems. Okay. Now, moving on to the waterfall on January 29th. I am not going to go through with you who arrived when and who left when and where people sat at which table. We're going to skip all that and I'd like to streamline the questioning if I can. Uh, and I just want to talk to you about two or three areas. Um, you would agree that at the waterfall the mood among the people who were there was festive. Correct. Yes, that's correct. Everybody appeared to be happy and enjoying themselves. Correct. Everybody was enjoying each other's company. Correct. Specifically with regard to John O'Keefe and Karen Reed, they appeared to be uh quite happy that Kaye had been accepted into Bishop Fen. Correct. Um John, I I recall talking to John about it and he was happy that Kaylee was at Bishop Fian. I do not recall speaking to account about Bishop Fian, but definitely John was happy about Kaye being in Bishop Fian. All right. Uh you have previously testified that they were both excited about that. Have you not? If I did, I did. I just know that John mentioned that he was out because he was excited about Kaylee being at Bishop Fe. If I loop them both in, then they both were happy. I I don't remember what I said when I said it. I didn't put it this way. I didn't see her she wasn't happy about it. Does that make sense? Yeah. Well, I'm just going by by your words, sir. Um, as far as you could see, they were both excited about her acceptance. Correct. Yes. Yes. Um, and they had just found out the previous day or so. Correct. I don't recall what day they found out, but I know that John mentioned he had went out for some beers. He was excited um because Kaye got into Bishop Fian, and he mentioned he was out with another one of his friends whose daughter also got into Bishop Ian, right? And it appeared to be new news, correct? Oh, yes. It was news they were waiting on. Yes. Right. You hadn't heard it before. This is the first that you heard it, correct? Um I don't know if I heard it if somebody if kid had already leaked it the the day before or that day, but first I heard it from John. All right. Uh but it was clear to you that it was really important to John O'Keefe that Kaylee get into Bishop Fen and go there. Correct. Um he was they applied. He was excited for her to go there. And it was clear that he believed it was an achie an achievement for her. Correct. Um yes. And and you could glean also that John O'Keefe felt like it was an achievement for him as well. Correct. Jackson, your honor, could you glean that from him? He was he was happy that she got in. I couldn't I don't know what he was if he felt it was his achievement. He was happy for Kaylee, of course. And he was doing right by his sister's daughter. Correct. I don't know what that means. They can go to any school and do right. All right. In any case, everything seemed good that night. Everything was good. There were no arguments. There were no arguments that I saw. John was drinking beer. In my recollection, yes. And you had previously testified that you saw Karen was drinking some type of clear liquid that you assumed was some type of vodka drink. Correct. That is correct. Um and but you didn't think that they were drinking much. Correct. At the waterfall. No, they were only there for an hour. So, right. And uh they got there around 11, correct? Give or take. Yep. 11ish. And that bar is pretty strict about last call. Correct. That is correct. And you spoke with both of them during the course of the night. Correct. Yes. Neither John nor Karen was intoxicated in your view. Correct. Jackson, can you answer that? They were drinking. I don't know what I don't know what the guideline of intoxication is, but they were drinking. Do you recall testifying before the grand jury regarding this matter on April 26th of 2022? If you have that and I must I don't recall my questions that question specific, but yes. Right. Well, I didn't ask about the questions. I just asked if you recall testifying before the grand jury on that date. I don't remember the date. I'd recall testifying before the grand jury. If I suggested to you that it was April 26th of 2022, would you quarrel with that? That did you Would I quarrel? Yeah. No, it was definitely around that time. Okay. Uh, and at that grand jury presentation, uh, Mr. Lowry was there, correct? Yes. None of the defense team was there, correct? No. Karen Reed was not there, correct? No. And there was no judge there. Correct. No. And uh, April 26th was approximately 3 months after January 29th of 2022. Uh, yes. Is it fair to say that your memory about whether or not John and Karen was intoxicated would have been better on April 26th of 2022 than it would be today? May we approach. All right, I'll see you in Feel free to stand up. Yes. I had just asked you if your memory of your observations of Karen Reed and John O'Keeffe from January 29th would have been better on April 26th of 2022 than it would be today. Yes, I think that's fair to say. And that's because your your memory doesn't get better over time. Correct. I don't know. I I I would say it's fair to say yes, my memory would be better that day. And on that day, you were asked by Mr. Lai, quote, did either of them strike that. I'm going to go back to the previous sentence just to put it in context. Yes. The previous sentence was from Mr. Lai. Obviously, you've had social occasions with M. Misre before, correct? And your answer was, oh yes. Right. Objection. I'm going to let that one go. My answer is yes. I had previous I don't know if I said oh yes, but my answer was yes. Of course I had previous relationships with them. I'm sorry I cut you off, sir. I don't I'm saying of course I had previous relationships with them. And the question that I wanted to direct you to just to put it in context was did either of them speaking about John and Karen on this particular evening seem sort of overly intoxicated to you? You recall that question? I don't recall the specific question, but that's the question. And your answer was no to that. Um, yes. That's my answer. Then it was no. Uh, in in terms of whether you can confirm that that was the question and answer. If I showed you the transcript, would that refresh your memory? Yes, of course it would. Uh, this is uh 21103 lines 13 to 15 for council. And I didn't ask permission. I'm sorry. Thank you. Having reviewed that transcript, did I get the question and answer correct? Yes, you did. [Music] Okay. Um, just a couple more things about the waterfall. I want to ask you about uh Brian Albert and Brian Higgins surf. Yes. Uh, they were both there that night while you were there, correct? Yes, they both were there and they are both pretty big guys. Correct. Objection. Can you answer that? Yes, they're goodized guys. Uh, did you see Brian Albert and Brian Higgins practicing fighting at the waterfall? Practicing fighting, right? Did you see them kind of square up in a fighting stance to each other? I recall them grabbing each other. I don't recall them squaring up like they were fighting each other. No, they were playing a little grab ass with each other. I did I did see them grab each other. I don't recall a physical, hey, let's go duke it out. I do not recall that. Okay. So, are you saying taking you literally that they grabbed each other's asses? Is that it? No, I'm saying grab ass. It's a figure speech. Okay. But but what? They didn't uh they didn't grab each other. They were in a fighting stance, weren't they? Didn't they crouch down low with each other? I I'm telling you, I don't recall seeing them crouching in a fighting stance. I recall them I recall someone grabbing somebody. I don't remember who grabbed who. I just recall like a bear hug or something. I thought I recall them doing a bear hug. All right. So, so you recall them uh one of them getting behind the other one and kind of restraining them or grabbing them? I think there was a beer hug. Yeah, that's that's what in my memory. I don't And you would agree with me that uh after closing time, Brian Albert and Brian Higgins were two of the people who went back to 34 Fair View Road, the Albert home. Correct. Yes, that's correct. But before everyone left, before you left, it was announced around the table that everyone was welcomed back at Brian Albert and Nicole Labbert's house. Correct. Yes. Karen Reed and John O'Keeffe were both there when that invitation was announced. Correct. Yes. And you would agree that it was expected that Karen Reed and John O'Keefe would go to the Albert home that night. Correct. If they wanted to come, they were welcomed. Yes. And that plan would have been for them to go inside the Albert home. Correct. Yes. Recall what time you left the waterfall? Um, I left the waterfall after midnight, give or take 12:10, 12:15ish. I don't know the exact specific time or a little before 12:15, but um, definitely 12:10ish, 12:15ish in there. And you were one of the last to leave the waterfall. Yes, as I had mentioned, I um, Nicolaus and I walked out together from the waterfall. Your wife, Jennifer McCabe, had walked out of the bar physically before you did. Correct. Yes, that's correct. And you actually met her in the parking lot? Um, she was already in the vehicle in the parking lot. Correct. And then you got into the car to drive to the Albert home. Correct. Yes, that's correct. All right. So, I'm I'm going to ask you about the ride back to the Albert home in a bit, but right now I want to skip to when you got there. Okay. Okay. Uh, when you first got there, your wife parked your vehicle in the driveway, correct? Yes. Which side of the driveway did you park your vehicle in? Um, as I mentioned yesterday, I don't recall if it was immediately on the left, meaning the left towards the lawn, or if she was in the in the next spot over. She pulled in. I don't remember exactly what if it was here or one spot over, but she pulled in the driveway at that time. I at least two. I don't recall if there was more than two. Um, so if there was at least two that those two would have been parked uh abuing the the garage area. In other words, would they be that? Let me rephrase. So, there are two lanes in that driveway, correct? I my recollection there's two lanes, but there is more space if you I know when we go over and we've gone over there's more space to kind of park three cars um to the right. Correct. Okay. But we weren't to the right. We were either left or middle. You were behind one vehicle, whichever lane you were in, or were you pulled right up to one of the garage entrances? I I don't recall if we pulled all the way in or or not, but I I don't remember. So, there were at least two vehicles in the driveway before you got there. Correct. In the driveway. Yes. Uh, yes. You were caused in the driveway. And when you parked in the driveway, fair to say that there was no black SUV at the Albert's home. Are you referencing Karen's SUV? I don't know what color the cars, the Albert's cars were. Are you referencing their SUV? This way. Yes, I'm referencing Karen's SUV that was not at the home and that was not in the driveway. Correct. Karen's SUV was not in the driveway and it was not adjacent to the property or on the street anywhere that you could see. Correct. It was not there. All right. But but you say that there was a Jeep in the street at that time. Correct. There was a Jeep parked in front of the end of the driveway in front of the mailbox. And that Jeep belonged to Brian Higgins. I found out it belonged to Brian Higgins. I didn't know it was his Jeep when I arrived. And it had a plow on the front of it. Uh, yes it did. It was parked adjacent to the Albert's property on Fair View facing toward up the hill toward Chapman Street. Correct. Yes. And at the time that you arrived, that was the only vehicle that was parked on Fair View Street adjacent to the Albert property. Correct. Yes. And your testimony is that that Jeep remained parked in front of the Albert house uh just to the left of the driveway as you face the house until Brian Higgins finally left and drove it away at the end of the night. Correct. That's my recollection was his Jeep was out in front of the mailbox. Um with the courts permission, could we display exhibit 66? Okay. So, M I'm highlighting with a spotlight the front of the Albert's home. When I get to the point where the Jeep was parked, can you stop me and you can adjust it right or left if I go too far? Objection, your honor. Can we have him use the the print the laser pointer first and then Sure. I was hoping I didn't have to. I don't have one. No, you could. Yes, please. The Jeep was right there from the edge of the driveway. It's right there. I believe it was a two-door Jeep. Okay. It looks like a part of the Jeep would have been blocking the driveway. Nope. Where the mailbox is, the Jeep was right there. Okay. It was not blocking the driveway. The uh moment. Sure. The mailbox that's uh spotlighted there, would that have been where the back of the Jeep was? Yeah, the back would have been right in the vicinity of of uh the edge of the driveway in the mailbox. I see. So, it wasn't blocking the driveway at all when you saw it? No. And it was facing to the left as we looked at exhibit 66. Correct. Facing heading to the left of the house. Correct. We can have the lights back on. And as you testify, that that Jeep was there the whole night. Brian Higgins didn't go out to move it at any point. Correct. I never saw Brian Higgins go outside to move his Jeep. About 5 minutes after you got to the Albert home that night, you saw a black SUV parked outside the home. Correct. Yes. Again, I don't know the exact minutes, but give or take. Um, four or five minutes. And when you saw that black SUV parked outside the Albert home, Higgins Jeep was still there. Correct. Yes. To my recollection, the Jeep was still outside in front of the mailbox. The black SUV was parked in front of Higgins Jeep with the plow in the front. Correct. That's correct. How far or close to that Jeep was the black SUV? I don't recall the exact distance. Again, when I looked outside, I noticed the my focus was on the black SUV, which looked outside would have been in front of the front door. Um, with regard to the distance between the Jeep and the black SUV, was it greater or smaller than the distance between you and me right now? Oh, it would be smaller. If I'm the end, if you're the if you're the end of the Jeep and the end of the Let's say that I'm the rear end of the the uh black SUV and you're the front end of the Jeep. Yeah, I'd say be you'd be a little closer to me. Um, with the court's permission, may I walk closer to the witness so that he could give an estimate? Sure. And you can just stop me, sir. Yeah. I don't I don't know. Again, when I looked outside, I was focused on the SUV. I wasn't focused on the Jeep or the truck. I don't know the exact distance. You could walk three more feet or 3 ft that way, but it was out in front of the house. That's all I can tell you. You will agree with me that you've given conflicting information about where the black SUV was when you first saw it. If you tell me I gave conflicting information, you can show it to me. I don't recall. I I I've always said the SUV was in front of the house. Right. And when you said in front of the house, you meant that as you look out the front door of the Albert residence, which on exhibit 66 would have been the door to the left. That's the the classic front door. the classic front door looking at the house on the main part of the colonial looking straight out from there. That's where the black SUV was positioned. Correct. In that vicinity. Correct. Right. It would have been sort of directly in front of you as you look out that front door. Correct. Like I said, in the vicinity of looking out the front door was a black SUV. If it was 3 ft this way or 3 ft this way or 3 feet that way, I don't know. It was just out in front of the house. Right. Uh and that was where it was when you first spotted it according to your testimony today. Correct. Yes. But you spoke to Michael Proctor during the afternoon of January 29th, did you not? Yes, I did. That was the very day that these events occurred. Correct. Yes, it was. You would agree with me that your memory of where that black SUV was when you first spotted it on January 29th would have been better on that very day than it would be today. Correct. Possibly. Yes. It's almost two and a half years later. Two and a half years that I've lived in my memory. Yes. But your memory does not get better over time. Correct. Objection. Interesting. On January 29th of 2022, when you spoke to Michael Proctor, you told him that you saw a black SUV parked to the right of the residence as you look at the property from the street. Did you not? I did not. When you can you elaborate what you mean by to the right of the re residence? Well, I will just repeat the question. Did you tell Michael Proctor on January 29th of 2022 that you observed a big dark SUV parked to the right of the house? What? Right. Looking at the house to the right or looking at the house to the left. When you say right, I don't know what you mean by right. Is your memory exhausted as to what you told Michael Proctor? No, not at all. Um, so if your memor is not exhausted, would you agree with me that while you were at 34 Fair View, you told Michael Proctor that you observed a big dark SUV parked to the right of the house? That could have been the second time I informed him of seeing the SUV. Okay. Um, if I suggested to you that that was the first time according to what you told Michael Proctor, would you dispute that? Objection. sustain. Is your memory exhausted as to whether or not that was the first or second time according to what you told Michael Proctor? My memory is not exhausted. Okay. So, if your memor is not exhausted, do you deny telling Michael Proctor that you observed a big dark SUV parked to the right of the house? Jackson, can you answer that? I I don't know if I can answer it. I believe it's the second question. I told him I saw an SUV and parked in front of the house. Then I saw an SUV move further up the road, which looking out of the house would be to the right of the house. So that would be when I saw the SUV to the right of the house would be the second time I saw the SUV. I've always stated the SUV was in front of the house if looking out the front door. Okay. So when you talked to So you deny telling Michael Proctor that when you first saw the SUV, By the way, sir, is this is this funny? I'm sorry. This is not funny, sir. Not at all. It's been two years of misery. You're smiling now. That's why I asked. You keep repeating the same question. Well, I'm trying to get an answer that you won't give me, sir. When you talked to Michael Proctor on January 29th of 2022, when you first observed the big dark SUV, you said to him it was parked to the right of the house. Objection. This is the last time in that question. Is that right? That is not right. The SUV the first time was in front of the house in front of coming out the front door. The second time was it was to the right of the house. You have to move on. Okay. All right. So, uh, you did not say that this and but you did say that you were making those observations from the front door. Correct. As I stated yesterday, I recall. That's a yes or no question. I'm sorry. Objection, your honor. Can you answer it? Yes or no? I I can't. I said yesterday it's either I was out looked out the window and I looked out the front door. I don't remember which order. Um, well, you told Michael Proctor that the first time you looked out it was out the front door, did you not? I don't recall. I told Michael Proctor on April. You don't recall. May I approach your honor? Yes. Page two of Proctor's report comes. So next time just show it to you read the first few sentences of that second paragraph. Second paragraph. Yes. You had said that you don't remember what you told Michael Proctor. Did that report refresh your memory? I'm not saying I don't remember what I told Michael Proctor. I'm stating what I remember. Hold on a second. You just told this jury that you don't remember what you told Michael Proctor. Those were your words. Yes. At the point I'm reading, I don't remember the exact wording, but I know what I told Michael Proctor. All right. And you told Michael Proctor that you observed a big dark SUV parked to the right of the house. Did you not? At some point in the conversation, yes, I told Michael Proctor that a big dark SUV moved to the right of the house. Moved to the right of the house. Is that what you just said? All right, let me rephrase. At some point, there was a big dark SUV on parked in front of the right of the house. I physically didn't see it move, so I need to rephrase. I can't say move. But what I'm concentrating on now, sir, is not what your memory is today or what you testified to the jury today. I'm concentrating on what you told Michael Proctor that very day on January 29th, 2022. Okay? And you initially told him that it was parked to the right of the house, the big dark SUV, and that you made those observations from the front door. And then you stated you looked out the front window and observed the same big dark SUV had moved to the other side of the property. Correct. The objection sustained. You have to break that down. And I thought we moved on from this. M. No, we haven't gotten to the second part of the So bring the document. I'll see you inside. Oh, thank you very much. One last question on this, Mr. Yes. With regard to trooper Proctor's report that you have in front of you, right? It's I I for identification. Uh, yes. I'm reading the You will agree with me that you reported your conversation as saying that the vehicle was first to the right and then moved to the other side of the property. Correct. Objection. Sustained. You testified before the grand jury regarding this issue on April 26th of 2022, did you not? Yes, I did. Uh and you talked about the vehicle moving from point A to point B. Correct. Uh yes, at some point. And you estimated that it was 15 to 20 feet or so that the SUV moved along the property line. Correct. Uh yes. Again, I don't know the exact distance, but estimates. And uh you at at that point in time, you were asked to clarify what you had meant when you said that the vehicle was on first on the right side of the property. Do you recall that testimony? I do not. Do you recall that Mr. Lai asked you uh you know to the right would have been toward the driveway side of the property and that you answered that's correct? I don't remember the conversation. Um and again, to the right looking at the house or to the right looking out of the house? That's what I'm talking about. To the right looking at the house would be toward the driveway. Correct. The to the right looking at the house would be toward the driveway. Correct. And that's your testimony where the vehicle started out. Correct. And then moved toward the flag pole the second time. The vehicle started in front of the house and moved towards the flag pole. Correct. So looking out of the house, it moved towards the right. Now, excuse me. All right. You told Michael Proctor that initially it was parked closer to the driveway or the mailbox when you first saw it. Correct. Objection. Objection sustained. We were moving off of this. Mr. Yes, uh, wherever it was when you first saw it, where was the Jeep in relation to that black SUV when you first laid eyes on the black SUV? Again, I was focused on the black SUV. My recollection, the Jeep was still in the same spot. Um, which you we had pointed out earlier on the exhibit. Correct. In terms of where it was spacing, the black SUV was behind I'm sorry, the Jeep was behind the black Jeep would have been behind the black SUV. Correct. And uh wherever it was along that property line, you would agree with me that before the black SUV arrived outside the Albert home, you didn't notice any tire tracks in the snow on the street in front of the house. Correct. Before Yes, that's correct. Before the black SUV array. Correct. And at all times that you saw the black SUV, first or second, it was always facing toward Chapman Street. Correct. Yes, that's correct. And it was always facing in the same direction that you say that Higgins Jeep was facing. Correct. Yes. And that would mean that the passenger side of the black SUV was the closest side to the Albert home. Correct. Yes. And it was the closest side to you when you were first looking at it. Correct. Yes. And now your testimony today is you don't recall if the first time you looked at that black SUV, it was through the front door or if it was through a front window. Correct. Uh, correct. I don't recall which one I looked out first. I know I looked out both of them at some point. I just don't recall which one was first. Whichever one it was, when you first laid eyes on that black SUV, you did not see John O'Keeffe in the passenger seat. Correct. That is correct. How long a span of time was it between the first time you looked out and saw the black SUV and the second time? Again, I don't have the exact time. I'm going to guess 3, four, five minutes at most. And what you did in between those three, four, five minutes was you went back to the table or near the table in the kitchen dining room area where everybody was congregated. That's correct. And you went back there to to talk to people and socialize. Correct. Yes, that's correct. And then you came back to the front of the house and either went to the front window or the front door and that's when you noticed that the black SUV had moved to the other side of the property. Correct. Uh yes, at that moment it had moved to the right of the property and driven forward. Correct. I did not see a drive, but it had moved. Yes. So it had to get there somehow. Yes. Uh it was now closer to the flag pole than it was the first time. Correct. That is correct. And the flag pole as you look at the property, not from your vantage point looking out, but as you look at the property from the street, that would have been to the left. Correct. Yes. Uh and again, it was still facing toward Chapman Street. Yes. Um in terms of how many times you saw the black SUV having moved outside the house, you would agree with me that you have contradicted yourself about how many times that it moved. Correct? No. Yesterday and today you testified that it had been in three different spots and then it was gone. Correct. Yes. Three. Three times. I looked out and saw the SUV, right? And you know, again, on uh in May of 2024, yesterday and today, all three times it moved, it was moving further or farther off Fair View toward Chapman Street. Correct. Yes. Um and in fact, that you've testified now in May of 2024 that the third time that you saw it, the black SUV was uh even past the fire hydrant uh just about to the neighbor's property. Correct. Uh yes. Uh but again your memory of where it was the last time that you saw it or or how many times you saw it I should say would have been better on January 29th than today. Correct. Um again assumption yes I guess it should be. Uh and in fact when you were talking to Michael Proctor you had just observed the black SUV just hours before speaking to him. Correct. Yes. Not two and a half years before. Right. Right. Oh yes. Uh and in when you spoke to Michael Proctor you told him that you only saw the black SUV in two different spots. Correct. That's what it says on this paper. My recollection is always been I saw the black SUV in three different spots. And you just called it a paper. It's a it's a police report. Correct. Objection. That's his name, Miss Getty. Now, since you talked to Michael Proctor on January 29th of 2022, um it's fair to say that you've had multiple conversations about this case with your family. Correct. Of course, I've talked about this case. That includes in-person conversations, correct? With my family? Yes. Yes. As well as phone calls and texts. Yes. You've also, since you talked to Michael Proctor, have had multiple conversations about this case with your in-laws. Correct. Yes. That also includes inerson conversations as well as phone calls and texts. Correct. That is correct. And since you gave that statement to Michael Crockett, you've had multiple conversations specifically with Brian Albert. Correct. Yes, I've talked to Brian Albert. That includes inerson phone calls and texts. Correct. That is correct. Would you agree with me that in terms of the changes in your version of events from what you've testified during this trial to what is in Michael Proctor's report, you put the SUV father down Fairview toward Chapman Street now. Correct. Objection. Distinct. Your testimony during this trial puts the SUV past the fire hydrant almost toward the neighbor's house. Correct. That is correct. [Music] But however many times you saw that black SUV, you'd agree with me you never observed any damage to the rear of that vehicle. Correct. Correct. Never saw any damage to the rear right tail light. Correct. Correct. You'll also agree with me that every time you saw that black SUV, the vehicle had its headlights on. Correct. I was looking as it as we talked about it moving up the property, I was looking at the back. I could see the back of the SUV. The assumption is the headlights were on. Um but I wasn't looking at the headlights. All right. Well, that would have meant that the uh area in front of the vehicle was lit up. Correct. Yes, but like I said, it was further up the road. Now, sometime after that black SUV first arrived, you noticed that there were tie tracks, tire tracks, I should say, in a V-shaped on the street in front of the Albert home. Correct. That's correct. And those tire tracks were from the curb in front of 34 Fair View toward the neighbor's property across the street and then back toward the curb. Correct. Um, yes. It came out, waved out towards the to the cross the street and came back in. And the pattern of those tire tracks that you observed were consistent with the vehicle making the three-point turn. Correct. Can you answer that? I don't know if the vehicle made a three-point turn. It could be consistent with because it was a wavy pattern. I don't I've never looked at a tire tracks after I've done a three-point turn to determine what they actually look like, but in and back out. There was nothing about those tire tracks that ruled out a three-point turn to you. Correct. No. All right. Uh, you didn't see those tire tracks again until the black SUV arrived at the home, correct? I didn't. You mean? Yes. I didn't see them previous to the black SUV. And Higgins Jeep was already there before the black SUV arrived. Correct. Yes. So, Higgins Jeep was already parked and stationary when there were no tire tracks in that area. Correct. I didn't notice. Well, I parked my car. We parked in the driveway. I walked in the house, so I wasn't looking at the tire tracks. So, but Higgins Jeep was already parked. Right. Right. You didn't see tire tracks at that point is my point. Yeah. mountain. Uh, and at the point that you saw those tire tracks, there were no other vehicles in the area along the Albert family property line on Fair View other than Higgins Dre and the black SUV. Correct. Uh, that's my recollection. Yes. Okay. So, now we're going to go back to where I had left off with regard to meeting uh your wife Jennifer McCabe in the car after leaving the waterfall. Um, you recall that we sort of left off with you getting in the car and starting the drive home. Yes. Uh once you uh got inside the car, your wife ultimately called John O'Keefe along the ride home. Correct? Uh John O'Keefe had texted my wife and my wife had called him. He was asking where to we think he was asking for the the where to whizzy address. Uh so she called him to tell him and and you knew that he was asking that because the Bluetooth of the car was connected to her phone. Correct. I believe the Bluetooth was on. Again, I could hear his conversation. My assumption is the Bluetooth was on. Right. You could hear both sides of the conversation. Correct. I could hear John as well. Yes. Yeah. your wife and John, correct? Yes. I was sitting next to my wife. I could hear her. And you heard John tell your wife that he was planning to go to 34 fair. Correct. Yes. Uh he had told your wife uh in your presence that he and Karen would meet your wife and you there. Correct. He said we're on our way. Right. And you knew again the plan was to go inside 34 Fairview. Correct. Yes, that was the plan. Uh you heard your wife tell John that 34 Fairview is off Chapman Street. Correct. Um either either I was also talking so I don't know if my wife was repeating but yes we did say off of Chapman Street. It could have been you could have been your wife but he was told it was off Chapman Street right? That's correct. Yes. Uh and then the your wife hung up with John at least temporarily but then John called back. Correct. Yes that's correct. He indicated he needed more specific directions to 34 fairly. Correct. Yes. And then you heard your wife or maybe you participated in the conversation. I won't rule that out. But between the two of you you did give him more specific directions. Correct. Yes, we did. And either you or your wife, and you can correct me if you know if it's one or the other. Uh, but e one of you told him to go down Chapman and take Fair View as if they were going to Bella's house. Correct. Uh, yes. We had mentioned um go down Chapman to Fair View. You know where Bella lives, drive past Bella's street, the house will come up on your left. Right. And I believe you previously explained that Bella was a friend of John's niece Kaye and also your daughter Olivia. Correct. Yes, that's correct. That was a good way to orient him as to where to go. Correct. Yes. And once you did that, John O'Keefe never called back for any clarification. Correct. Yes. Not to my recollection. All right. And with regard to your state of mind based on that conversation and the instructions that either you or your wife or both of you gave John, you certainly assumed that John and Karen would be arriving uh at Fairview coming from the Chapman Street direction. Correct. That was my assumption. As I stated yesterday, there's multiple ways to go, but that was my assumption. And it was an educated assumption based on the conversation that you had. Correct. Yes. Um, may I approach the witness? Okay. Thank you. Um, I have handed you something. If you could take a look and tell the jury whether you recognize what that depicts. Uh, yes. This is a map um showing Cedar Crest Road intersecting with View Road. on the opposite side shows Chapman Street intersecting with Fair View as well as other streets in the it's called the Cedar Crest neighborhood in the Cedar Crest neighborhood. Okay. And realizing that you don't have a compass or a war, does it appear to be uh generally two scale in terms of where the roads are? Yes. And it appears to be a fair and accurate depiction of the layouts of particularly Cedar Crest, Fairview, and Chapman Street. Uh yes. Okay. I would offer that. Is there any objection? and Mr. Why don't you hand over the other one? [Music] Can I play that from the jury room? That will be incident. Oh, thank you. What is displayed on the screen, Mr. McC does that appear to be what I just showed you in 88? Uh, yes. You see that there's a red bubble there. Uh, does that have any meaning to you as you look at the map? Uh, yes. It' be the location of 34 uh Fair View. Okay. And as we look at the map, Cedar Crest is up the top and Chapman is down the bottom. That is correct. With regard to the directions that you gave or you wore your white gear, Jon O'Keefe, uh, if they were coming as you directed them on Japanese, would they be taking a right onto Fairview or a left? If they went the way that we mentioned, they'd be taking a left. Okay. So, in terms of looking at this map, they'd be traveling on Chapman Street really from the left to the right as you look at exhibit 88. Correct. Uh, yes. Left to right. Correct. All right. And that would allow them to take a left down Fair View heading towards Cedar Crest. Correct. That is correct. And you would agree with me that that would put the driver's side closest to the Albert property if they just kept going straight all the way to Cedar Crest. Correct. Yes. Uh, the driver's side would have been closest to the property. Turn the lights back on. Um that would mean well strike. All right. So you agree with me that your state of mind was that was the direction that they would go. That's what I thought they would have how they that's how I thought they would have come into the neighborhood. Correct. Uh but you never saw the black SUV traveling in that direction or parked in that direction. Correct. That's correct. Um, that would mean that in order for the SUV to be facing in the other direction, one way would be for it to make a three-point turn. Correct. Objection. I'll allow it. If they So, we're saying if they came down from Chapman and then spun around and facing back up towards Chapman is what you're asking? Yes. At some point, she would have had to turn around or do a three-point turn. Correct. Um, she could do a three-point turn or she could just loop around at seed and come back up. Either one, right? Uh, and a three-point turn would be consistent with what the V uh V-shaped tire tracks that you saw when you looked out the front of Brian Albert's house. Correct. Jackson, when you were interviewed by Michael Proctor on January 29th of 2022, you had not spoken with Ryan N. Correct. No. So, it's fair to say you did not know what if anything Ryan Nagel had seen in terms of how or what direction the black SUV arrived in. Correct. Jackson 16. When you spoke to Michael Proctor on January 29th, 2022, the phone conversation that your wife had with uh John O'Keefe that you were either participating in or listening to, that was regarding the directions that was fresh in your mind on January 29th, correct? Yeah. Those directions had just been given to John uh you know the night before or really hours before. Correct. Yes. So on January 29th when you're talking to Michael Crocker believing that John had driven down Chapman Street, um you were trying to square in your own mind how the vehicle wound up in the other direction when you looked out the house. Correct. Objection. Were you? Can you just repeat that again? I think I heard you. I just want to make sure. It wasn't a great question. I'm I'll see if I can make it any better. Um you're you're talking with Michael Proctor on January 29th in the afternoon, correct? Yes. Uh and he's asking you about the positioning of the black SUV among other things. Correct. Yes. Uh and again, I'm just getting to your state of mind. Um your state of mind was uh that you know you gave the direction you or your wife gave the directions to John and you're thinking he came down Chapman but you never see saw the vehicle in that direction. It was only in the other direction facing toward Chapman. Is that fair? Yes. Uh, and so you're naturally trying to square in your own mind, trying to make it make sense as to how that happened. Correct. Objection. You can answer that. Were you trying to square that in your own mind? I I wasn't trying to I I don't know if I was trying to square it. I do. I just knew that for some reason her vehicle was facing up Chapman. Are you asking? I don't know what she did. I just know her vehicle was facing up Chapman. And to you that was the significance of the V-shaped tire tracks when you're talking to Right. Objection. Was it? I I if I recall, I said there was a V-shaped tire tracks and I believe the question was could it be consistent with a three-point turn? I said it could be. I didn't know if it was a three-point turn. It could be because it was weird tracks. Again, I did not see the vehicle. I don't know if she pulled in the driveway and turned. I don't know if she went to see the crest and turn. I don't know if she did a three-point turn and turn. I have no idea. All right. But just one last question on this three-point turn. You offered the V-shaped tire tracks as an explanation for what could have happened. Correct. Objection. Oh, that mean I had I had stated there was a V V-shaped tire tracks. I didn't say it was a three-point turn. All right. Well, you'd agree with me in any case that if John and Karen entered from Cedar Crest and you saw them where you saw them, there'd be no need for a three-point turn. Correct. So, you're saying if she didn't come through come from Chapman, she came from the other side Cedar Crest, there would be no need for a three-point turn because or any type of turn because she was already facing that way. That's right. If she came from Cedar Crest, she's already in the very direction that you saw the black SUV when you looked out. Correct. Yes, that's correct. Now, uh, your testimony during this trial is that you were looking straight out from the house to the street and you know, again, I I understand your qualification could have been 3 feet this way or 3 feet that way, but your memory is that the car was essentially right in front of you, give or take, the first time you saw it? My memory is the car was right in front of the front door. Yes. Okay. Um, and you were looking straight at it, correct? As I had stated earlier, the first time I looked out, I don't recall if I was looking straight out from the front door or if I was peeking out through the window, but it was my sight would had it lined up in front of the front door. So, if I looked out from the front door, then it would have been Yes. straight in front of me. Um, and you would agree with me that when you were looking at the vehicle from wherever you were looking at it, you were looking straight over the front lawn. Correct. I was looking over I would have been looking over the lawn. Correct. Again, I was focused on fires were Hold on, Mr. I said I was focused on the vehicle. I was focused. I I didn't know that he was not done with the answer. My fault. We only can have one person speaking at a time. The court reporter can't be expected to have two different people at the same time. So, please be cautious. The lawyer needs I I will try, your honor. Um, did you get your full answer out, sir? I did. Okay. Um, you would agree with me that the V-shaped tri tracks were farther away from you than the front lawn? Yes, they were on the on the road. And if you were able to clearly see those V-shaped tire tracks, you certainly were able to clearly see the Albert's front lawn. Correct. As I mentioned, I was looking over the lawn, but I'm assuming the lawn was somehow in my visibility. I wasn't focusing on the lawn. Okay. I'm going to try that question again and see if I can get a yes or no answer. If you were able to clearly see the V-shaped tire tracks, you were certainly able to clearly see the Albert's front lawn. Correct. If I looked at it, it's a confusing question. As I said, I was focused on the road. I wasn't looking at the lawn. Let me let me be clear. I'm not asking you if you looked at it. I asked if you were able to clearly see it. I would be able to. Yes. And when you looked out at that black SUV, you and and saw the V-shaped tire tracks, you did not see a 6'2 man lying on the front lawn. Correct. No, I did not. And at no point in time whenever you looked at that black SUV, did you see John O'Keefe inside the vehicle? Correct. No, I did not see John in the vehicle. At no point in time did you hear any yelling outside 34 Fair View? Correct. No, I did not. At no point in time did you hear any scream of pain outside 34 Fairview? Correct. No, I didn't. At no point in time did you ever hear any crash noises outside 34th Fair? Jeff, I'll allow it. No. And uh last question on this point. At no point did you hear any noises at all outside 34th Fairview that attracted your attention? Uh no. There's music playing in the house, so I didn't hear anything. Okay. Now, after being at the Albert home for a period of time early that morning, you left the home approximately 1:40 a.m. or so. Yeah, give or take. 1:40, 1:45. I don't know the exact time. And you walked out with your wife, Jennifer McCabe, and two of Brian Junior's friends, correct? Uh, yes. Brian's two friends were joining Jennifer and I. We were driving them home. And whether you knew their names or not that night, you subsequently learn their names to be Sarah Leon and Julie Nagel. That's correct. Uh, and you all came out of the house together, correct? Uh, yeah. I I don't recall who was who was here when we walked to the car, but we all left the house at the same time. And directly in front of all of you was the front lawn. Correct. If I was to walk straight out the front door. Yes. The front lawn's in front of me. And when you were walking out, the black SUV was gone. Correct. Yes, that's correct. And when you first came out of the house facing that front lawn, you didn't see a black baseball cap. Correct. That's correct. or a black sneaker. Correct. That's correct. Or 45 pieces of red plastic tail light. Correct. That's correct. Or even one. Correct. That's correct. And once again, you didn't see a 6'2 man lying on the front lawn. Correct. No. I wish I did, but I didn't. As you were walking out with your wife and these two other women, none of them yelled that they saw anything like that. Correct. Correct. And then you all piled into the vehicle, which was in the driveway. Correct. Yes. Uh, you and your wife got into the front the driver's seat and the passenger seat, correct? Yes. I sat in the driver's seat, my wife was in the passenger seat. I brushed had to brush off the car, but that's where we sat. And the other two women who were friends with Brian Jr. got into the second row passenger seat. Correct. Yes. And I believe your testimony is you don't know who was where within that, but they did get in there. Yes, they were behind us. I don't know who sat in what seat. Um, once you got inside the vehicle, is that when you realized that you had left something back into the house? I don't recall leaving something in the house. I'm sorry. I don't recall leaving something in the house. I don't If I If I did, I did. I don't recall leaving something in the house. You don't recall going back into the house? No, I don't recall going back into the house. Um, if you went back into the house, the front lawn uh would have been directly in front of you uh from the driveway. Correct. Uh the lawn would have been to my left and I would have went up the walkway to the house. Okay. Well, that's my next question. When you went up the walkway, the front lawn would have been to your left, right? Uh, yes, that's correct. And then coming out, you would have had the same view that you'd had the first time. Correct. Uh, yes. It would have come back out the same way down the steps to the left. And without going through all the various items that I asked you about in terms of not seeing on the front lawn, you know, the speaker, the cap, the tail light, etc. You didn't see any of that stuff uh at any point the second time. Correct. Correct. I did not see anything. Okay. So, now you're finally back in your vehicle and you are backing out of the driveway, correct? Yes. Is it fair to say that to get to your Well, sorry that is it fair to say that to drop the women off your plan was to head toward Chapman Street. Yes, that that's what we did. Which would mean that as you back out of the driveway, the rear end of your car would have been facing towards Cedar Crest. Correct. Uh and then you would straighten out and now you've got a straight shot up towards Chen Street. Correct. Yes. And it would also mean that you drove the length of the Albert property. Correct. Yes. While you did that, sir, Julie Nagel never said, "What was that?" Did she? I did not hear Julie say that. She never said she had seen a black object. Correct. I did not hear her say that. She never said that she saw a black blob. Correct. I did not hear her say that. And she didn't say that the black blob that she supposedly saw was five or six feet in length. Correct. Again, I did not hear her say it. And she never said that she might have seen a person. Correct. I did not hear you talk about in the car. Correct. Yeah, I did not hear her say in the car. And you were right there driving, correct? I was driving, obviously, focused on the road. Um, the windshield wipers. It was snowing pretty heavily. You didn't have earpods in. Um, I didn't, but they were all talking in the car. You didn't have AirPods in? No, I didn't. Certainly not the noise cancellation AirPods, correct? Correct. I did not have earpods in. Um, and you never stopped the car because you never heard Julian Nagel say anything about anybody being in trouble. Correct. I did not hear her say it. Okay. Um, you woke up the uh next morning, as you said, to screaming. Correct. Uh, yes. The screaming was so loud that you thought that the person screaming was actually in your bedroom. Correct. That is correct. That was And it startled you. Fair to say? Yes, it did. Um, and then ultimately you learned that Karen Reed ended up in your driveway. Correct. Yes. Um, you could hear her screaming outside, correct? I could hear her outside. Correct. Um, she was hysterical. Um, she was screaming Jen. She just kept repeating Jen in a hysterical manner. Yeah. Jen. Jen. Yes. And she was screaming so loud that she was in danger of waking up the whole neighborhood. Correct. Uh, she was loud. Correct. And other than screaming Jan. Jen in that hysterical tone, you really couldn't make out her words a lot of the time. Correct. Not when she was outside my house. No. Um, skipping ahead to when you went back to Fair View that morning, it's fair to say that uh when you went Did you say that you went inside Fair View at maybe around 7 a.m.? Is that a good estimate? Yeah, I don't know the exact time, but it would say give or take could be a little before, a little after, but somewhere in that vicinity. And I believe you testified that the only people inside that you saw there were your wife, Brian Albert, and Nicole Albert in addition to Officer at that moment. uh at that moment. That's what I recall seeing there. Okay. So, there were uh and you didn't know where Brian Jr. was, whether he was sleeping, but you didn't see him. I don't recall seeing him at that moment. No. Okay. Uh and Officer Len was the only uh police official that you saw inside. Correct. At that moment. Correct. Okay. Now, in the days after January 29th, you participated in a group text exchange with three other people. Do you recall that? Um, can you name the three people? Sure. Uh, you had a group text chat going with your wife, Jennifer McCabe, your brother-in-law, Brian Albert, and your sister-in-law Nicole Albert. Correct. Oh, yes. Um, I'd like to ask you some questions about that group text chat if I might. Sure. Um, you would agree with me that on February 1st of 2022, that was 3 days after John O'Keefe's John O'Keefe passed away. Correct? Uh, yes. And at some point on February 1st of 2022, you were physically either at or near the Albert home at 34 Fair View in Kent. Correct. I could have been. I don't recall if I was there. Do you recall watching what investigators were doing in the neighborhood on February 1st? I do not. If you could show it to me, I could maybe reflect my memory. I do not recall that specific day. You don't recall monitoring what troopers were doing? I was not monitoring anything that the troopers were doing. If I had driven down the street dropping someone off, picking somebody up and saw the troopers, then I saw the troopers. I was not monitoring anything. directing your attention to 1:34 p.m. and 27 seconds. Uh, you texted your wife, Brian Albert, and Nicole Albert, quote, "Troopers back out front, but in front of Asian House." Did you not? If I texted that, you could show it to me. May I? Yes. 215. No, show it to him. Don't touch it. Show it to And don't reference what it is. You think this is my first try? Thank you. Thank you. I'm showing you a document, sir. And if you look up or look at it, with you. I don't I don't use glasses, but I can't see this. So, maybe I need glasses. I I'm I'm making it out. I got it. Is it a light? No, he says he doesn't. No, it's not. I just It's just It's just dark, but I got [Music] it. Go up front. What the hell? If you're struggling, I'm reading mine, right? The middle one. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I got it. Yep. I see it. Okay. If I may just grab Thank you. Having reviewed that document, is your memory refresh? My I see that I texted what you said. I texted the troopers were outside of the house. Yes. Right. That's that's that that's that's my question. This uh is a you know a page that contains uh the group text that you had with Jen McCabe, Brian Albert, and Nicole Albert. Correct. Yes. And in terms of the question that I asked you, you now acknowledged that you testified troopers back out front but in front of Asian House. Correct. That's correct. Um Mr. McCabe, what is an Asian house? A next door neighbors to the Abbottz Asian. All right. So, you mean that a family of Asian origin lived next door? Uh, yes. They were the next door neighbors to your brother-in-law and sister-in-law. Uh, correct. They lived um if you come out of Fair View, they lived to the right of the Alberts. And did you know their last name was the Chungs? I had no idea that I've never met them. I don't know their last names. I just knew it was an Asian family next door. And you didn't feel the name the need to ask their names or try to call them by their names? I've never met them. Objections sustain. You know what, Miss Teddy? Let's come to side. [Music] When you did tell the group chat about the troopers being at that house, um, nobody asked you to clarify which house you were talking about. Correct. objection. I'll allow that. Did anyone ask you to clarify? Nobody asked me to clarify that I recall. In fact, Brian Albert responded with just a question right now. Do you recall that? Yes. I think that was on that was on the the screen you just showed me. And you responded yes. Correct. Did you Did I get to see all the text or now? And with the court's permission, yes, I'm going to give you the previous page in case you need ju just give it all. Thank you. I'll just give you one. And if you need the other, just let me know. No problem. Thank you. And again, just look at it silently to yourself and look after me when you're done. So, am I to assume where you said Brian Albert said right right now? Yeah. Would you like to see that? So, would that be the last one and then this is the the next one? I'm just making sure. I understand. I appreciate that. You tell me. Okay. With the court. Sure. Thank you. Yep. That's what I was just looking for. I may collect the documents. I just I didn't read the rest of it. No, take take your time, please. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Um, you would agree with me that after you told uh the group in this group text that the troopers were back out front in front of that house, Brian Albert's response was right now. Yes. And then you said yes. Correct. Yes. Uh and then Brian Albert replied, "Okay." Correct. Jackson as of the reading. Is that how he replied? That's what it just said. Yes. All right. Now, at that point, uh, you texted the group that you were trying to get a picture of what you were seeing, correct? I didn't see that on the text. And you don't deny that you said that in the text. Correct. Can you show me the text, please? Oh, sure. Oh, did you say you didn't see it in there? I didn't see that. No. Sorry. That's probably because I didn't give it to you. May Yes. Have you shown those both to Mr. Alley? That's the next PDF. This one. Oh. I'm showing you two pages. Okay. Again, read it to yourself and look up at me when you're done. Do you have a phone with a flashlight on you? I don't have a phone on me. If you have a flashlight, I'll be able to see it. Do you mind? Madam court reporter, Mr. Clerk will Oh, okay. Thank you very much. question. All right. Much better. I got it now. that from you. Thanks. Having reviewed that, uh, do you acknowledge that you texted the group that you were trying to get a picture of what you were seeing? Uh, yes. I said I was going to try to take a photo. All right. Um, you would agree with me that you were watching what was going on, correct? On February 1st. Uh, no. I just happened to be driving through the neighborhood at that moment. So, you you happen to be driving through and then you texted the group to tell them what you saw, correct? Yes. And then you didn't just keep driving up the road and leave the area, did you? Um, I think I did. Well, I don't Unless you Unless I You told me I went back. I think I did. I said I was going to try to take a picture. Right. Well, that that's my point. Yeah. You you weren't just having seen the troopers back out there at that house. Uh in your mind, you you still weren't done. Correct. I just I was going to take a picture to show them, oh, the troopers are outside your house. Right. So So, in answer to my question, you weren't you weren't done with that scene, correct? I think I was cuz I don't know if I took a picture. Well, I think I went through I was I mentioned I was going to try to take a picture. I don't know if I took a picture or not. You didn't intend to be done at that point. Correct. I didn't intend to be done. Right. Because you wanted to take a picture of what was going on. I was going to take a picture to show them that uh troopers were outside in front of the house. I wanted to continue to monitor what was going on. Did you not? I was not monitoring what was going on. I just happened to drive by at that moment. Maybe have you seen a sidebar? Okay. Hold on a second. Is there any objection from council if Mr. McCay brings his own phone back in should he need a flashlight again? He wanted to do that. Okay. All right. Thank you. All right. Please back in touch. Please be seated. Hey, can we bring Mr. McKay back in, please? Please. [Music] [Music] Yes. All right. Misty and Eddie. Thank you. Um, Mr. M, I want to touch this a little in a little bit of a different way to hopefully make it easier on you and me and the jury. I'd like to hand you uh with the court's permission the four uh pages that you've already reviewed just to have you identified. Sure. Thank you. And I just like you to take a look at them and just confirm that's what you've already seen before we took the break. [Music] Hi. Yes, these are the ones you showed me earlier. Thank you, sir. Yes. Having reviewed those, sir, does this appear to be an accurate transcription of the sequence and the content of the group text chat within that time frame? Yes, I would offer that. All right. The only concern I have is I don't want to give the jury something they need a flashlight to read. Well, my next So, can I see it? Of course. Um, why don't I see Thank you. Okay, Mr. B, if you would display the first page 21. How is your your distance vision? You able to read what's on the screen? I don't know why it's on blue. Um, this is Can I have them in front of me while displaying them? Yes, please. Thank you very much. And feel free to use the flashlight. Yes. Thank you. Oh, yeah. That's much better. Now we can all see it. With regard to your initial text exchange that we talked about, can you confirm what you texted at 134 and 27 seconds in the afternoon of February 1st of 2022? Uh, yes. Do you want me to Oh, troop is back out front, but in front of agent house. Looks like more has been dug up there for at least there or at least looks like it. down the page to see the responses. And who was it that responded to your notification? Uh that would be Brian Albert. Brian Albert senior. Yeah. Yep. Senior. And his response was right now. And that was at 134 p.m. 45 seconds. Uh yes, it was. And you took that to be a question, correct? Yeah. Asking right now. Yes. You can move to the next. Yes. 2151. Yes. And you responded to Brian by saying what to his question about right now. I responded yes. And that was at 1:34 p.m. and 56 seconds. Yes. You would have still been on scene at that time? Um, I'm not sure if I was still on scene, but I was obviously if it was in the area. It must have been in the area. Correct. And who responded to you? Uh, Brian Albert again. Okay. Do you have a memory as to whether or not Brian Albert was on scene at that time or if he was somewhere else? I don't have a memory of where Brian was at that time. Given the fact that you're saying troopers are up front and he's asking right now, I I'd assume he's not I'd assume he's somewhere else. Yeah. And your response to him or your response to the group I should say was what? I had to pick up a car. So I drove through. Right. So this is a little further than we talked about. So take this one down, please. Yes. The second the second Mr. based on 2152. Okay. Now, we're at 135 p.m. and 16 seconds. M. Uh, yes, that's correct. And your text to the group of you, your wife, Brian, and Nicole Albert is what? Trying to get pictures. All right. And at this point, I ask the next bubble be displayed, and then I'm going to skip to the bubble after that once you see it. The next poll comes from Brian Albert. Uh, yes, Brian Albert. And let him The screen speaks for itself. If it doesn't, then the witness. What time is that at? 13532. And his response, does that appear to be a typo? PK, I'm assuming. The next couple that would be 213 and that that is from whom? Uh Brian Albert. All right. And the time there are you able to make that up? Does that say 13534 or 13834? Whatever it says. If you can't see it, you can't see it. Next. Sure. and uh his response was okay does that appear to be correct in the PK I'd have to go back and the previous one next question sure all right we can take that off um I'd like to just go over two more areas of these group chats with you um you would agree with me that uh later that same day on February 4th uh the four of you you your wife Brian Albert and Nicole Albert uh discussed in that group chat uh the fact that Michael Proctor was talking to Carrie Roberts over the phone. Correct. Jackson, uh, at 30:01 and 48 seconds, you commented on the interview of Michael Proctor with Kelly Roberts, did you not? Yes. Sustain. Been there. I think you can make it. Thank you. So, I'd like you to not leave the witness in the dark if there's something that he can have. Um, so I what I'm going to do now, sir, is to hand you three more pages and ask if you can identify those. Thank you. [Music] [Music] All right, Mr. McCabe, generally do you recognize those, sir? All right. So, go ahead. Match it up. Yep. Okay. Go ahead, Mr. The pages that I've handed you, handed to you, and that you now have in your possession, those are from the same group chat that you identified earlier. Correct. Yes, that's correct. And uh it appears to have the same sequence and content of the group chat as well. Yes. Over the Commonwealth subjection. Again, I'm not sending anything to the jury that they can't bring. So, let's mark this for identification. identification and the substance of those individual one will be question by question. Understood. Uh so Mr. Bates with regard to page 2160 I'm looking for the second. Do you have an extra copy for me to follow along? No. Jim, was it Mr. United? Was this in the what was marked? You're using that. All right. Thank you. All right. And if it's a question by question objection, just may that be displayed. May what be displayed? Well, just that and I did not take it in. I said the content on a question by question. So, it's each bubble. All right. Uh you you saw that uh at 3:01 p.m. and 48 seconds on February 1st that you text uh texted quote very weird that she's been barely interviewed. The whole dead comment was just told. I was supposed to have them talk last night and forgot to tell Proctor to call her. You recall that? I recall it. Correct. Those are your words, correct? Uh, yes, they are. May that be displayed? No, it's in We may display it later, but I'd like to move this testimony along. So, that's in evidence. And then, uh, in that discussion, uh, at 3:03 p.m. and 15 seconds, it was Brian Albert who texted texted, quote, "Hope they don't think she's making it up after the fact for some reason." End quote. Correct. Objection. I'll allow that. Uh, can you read the time stamp again? Page 02161. Oh, I found it. It's in the middle. I got that time stamp correct. Correct. Uh, 30315. Correct. And I read that accurately. Hope they don't think she's making it up after the fact. Um, yes, that's correct. Uh, and then less than a minute later at 3:05 and 32 seconds, uh, you replied, "Yes, she was hardly interviewed." And I think just answered what was asked. Oh, I'm sorry. Strike that. Strike that whole uh question. I skipped uh his next response which was at 305 and 2 seconds where he said, "But if they barely interviewed her, that's on me." Correct. Uh that's from Yeah. from Brian. Yes, that's correct. Okay. Now, with regard to that exchange, you would agree with me that you were talking about Terry Roberts being interviewed by Michael Prop. Correct. I don't want to make an assumption. Do you have the text previous to this that shows that we're referencing Carrie? I do and I'll show you that only to refresh your memory. Yeah, I just I don't want to assume something. I understand. I'm going to show you one page and ask you look at it silently to yourself. Okay. Open the page. Okay. You just look up at me when you're done. Yeah. Again, my assumption it's Carrie based. Can I go back another page? Feel free. Okay, that was it. That's what I was looking for. Yes. Um, did those previous pages refresh your memory about the context of your group chat conversation? Uh, yes it did. Uh, and certainly it was talking about Carrie Roberts being interviewed, correct? Uh, yes it was. And you were passing along information about that interview to Brian Albert, were you not? Yes, I was letting him know that Carrie was being interviewed. And you were telling him things that she was saying. Correct. Remember you said the whole dead comment was just told. All right. In any case, we're going to move on to the very last uh discussion that I'd like to ask you about. Um earlier that day, February 1st, 2022, at 12:50 p.m. and 37 seconds, Brian Albert texted the group, which would have again been his wife Nicole. your wife Jennifer and you and that text was Jackson. Okay. So I can't Which which bubble on which page? 02148. Right. On which page? That's the That's the page 021480. Okay. So I don't have it. Bubble is the second of the three bubbles. So I don't have it. I don't know what the objections pertaining to. Jers, I apologize that this is taking so long. You know what, Mr. Why don't you So, you're objecting to it, so I'm not going to let you say what it is. You can show it to the witness. Which one is this? Second bubble on 02148, then the third bubble on 02148, and then the first bubble on 02149. That's all I'll be asking about. Thank you. All right. So, I won't allow based on the objection from the Commonwealth the second bubble on 02148. I will allow the author of the third bubble. Um on page 02148. Uh it's no the second bubble on 02148 is not allowed into evidence. Um I need to be heard on that one. No. All right. I'll hear you. Yes, please. Can I have the jury back, please? [Music] And Mr. Jackson, if you are planning on doing this with the next witness, I'd like you to let Mr. Lai know which ones of these you intend to use so that we can avoid all of this. And if you have a copy from me, that would be helpful for [Music] objections. Court ally [Music] Back in session, please see it. Eddie, thank you. Um, M. McCabe, when we broke, I was just about to ask you about those the last exchange here. Uh, you will agree with me that on February 1st of 2022 at 1251 and 49 seconds, you texted the group chat to say, "Ask Chris to ask some questions." Correct. Yep. I'm reading it right now. Yes, that's correct. And who was the Chris you were referring to? Um, that would be Chris Albert, Brian's brother. Correct. That is correct. And then you then texted your wife, Brian Albert and Nicole Albert, quote, tell them the guy never went in the house. Correct. Yeah, that's part of the same text. Yes. Mr. Ke, who was the guy that you were referring to? Does he have a name? That would be John. John O'Keefe. When you told the group to tell them, the guy never went in the house, that was you talking about how you should all get your stories straight. Correct? No. You would agree with me that your stories are all straight in terms of the guy never went in the house. Correct. Objection. Can you answer that? John never went in the house. It's not a story, it's a fact. Yeah. Well, when you said tell them the guy never went in the house, Brian Albert was on that exchange still, was he not? He was still part of the group text. Yes, Brian is on the exchange. And Brian Albert was the one to respond, wasn't he? Let me switch pages here. 1251. He responded, did he not? Yes, he did. And then at that point, you knew Brian Albert was the oldest brother of the Albert family, correct? Yes, that's correct. The oldest sibling in that family. Correct. Yes, that's correct. And in his response to your instructions that his younger brother Chris should say that John O'Keefe never went in the house or the guy never went in the house, you would agree with me that he responded with one word. Correct? Yes, he did. And in response to you saying the guy never went in the house, Brian Albert's response was exactly correct. Yes, that's his response. We're done here. All right. Commonwealth, any redirect? Just briefly, your honor. I'm Dave. John Keith never went in the house that night. Is that correct? That's correct. And from this text communication, as far as Chris Albert was concerned, was Chris Albert ever at the house on that night? No, he was not. And this is something that you uh obviously death of John O'Keefe occurring uh how it where it did and why it did. That was something that you discussed. Can you keep your voice out? Yes. I'm sorry. This tragic occurrence as far as what happened to John O'Keefe, his death, where, why, how, that was something that you discussed within your family. Is that right? Yes, that's correct. What? I didn't hear that. Why was it a discussion? You're talking about the immediate immediately after No one knew what happened. John never showed it. Never came in the house. So, we had no idea what happened to John. And John was someone you were friends with, correct? Yes, that's correct. Now, did you ever tell anybody uh what to say at any point in time to say police or any investigator whatsoever? No. Did anyone in your family or in your presence ever tell anyone that in front of you? No. Now, you asked some questions about when you were looking out uh and you saw the SUV, correct? Yes. Your focus, as you indicated in your testimony, was on the SUV. Correct. Yes, that's correct. Now, during the time that you were looking out, uh did you ever see uh a pickup truck outside? I knew the pickup truck was out there, but again, I didn't look at the pickup. I kind of saw it, but was focusing on the SUV. And I saw a vehicle out there. Let's say that. My question is more so as far as the the tire marks that you were talking about in the road. Was that before or after the pickup truck was? It was after. Now you were asked some questions about uh directionality and and things of that nature as far as coming down Chapman or Cedar Crest. Correct. Yes, that's correct. And so someone had driven by the house and missed the house and then went on Cedar Crest, turned around presumably then they would be taking a left or a right from Cedar Crest on Fairview. Is that right? Uh yes. If they passed the house, they would have come to see the crest and turned around and come back on to Fair View. And you were asking questions about whether or not you saw Mr. O'Keefe from your vantage point in the SUV. Is that correct? Uh, yes, I was. You didn't see him, correct? I did not see him. Did you see anyone inside from where you were? I could not see anybody in the vehicle. Did you see anything about the windows as far as their tint or anything like that? I don't recall the tint. I couldn't see inside though. As far as any statements that uh Miss Nagel made on the way home, is it your testimony that you uh Miss Nagel didn't say those statements or that you didn't hear those statements? I did not hear those statements. Turning to February 1st, um do you recall what you were doing on that day when you drove by Fairview? I don't recall what I was doing. I don't I don't recall exactly what I did that day. And were you going specifically by Fairview or or where were you going? Based off of reading these text messages, I was doing something, picking up a car or something. It says, I don't recall where and I cut down Fair View. Now, as far as your statement in those text messages where you said, "Looks like uh more has been dug up." Do you recall that? I don't recall it. I read it in the text message. You recall what that was in regard to as far as what were they digging? Oh. Oh. Oh, sorry. I do recall. They dug out the snow. It looked like the snow banks. It looked like there was more snow dug out in the in the in the around the um the loco around the scene. And by the scene, you mean around with black hole fire. I think that was correct. Yes. Do you recall any sort of change in the weather between the 29th and February 1st? I believe the the temperature rose, snow was starting to melt if I recall. Now, when you and your wife were your wife was talking to uh to Mr. O'Keefe and you were given directions. There was some reference to Bellis. Correct. Yes, that's correct. And that was sort of used as a directionality as far as Mr. O'Keefe would be familiar with where Bella's house was. Yes, that's correct. What if any relationship uh in the past were you aware of between Mr. O'Keefe and Bella's mother? Um at some point uh Bella's parents were were separated u since divorced. Um at some point Mr. O'Keefe had a relationship with Bella's mother. And after that conversation in which that was referenced as far as Bella's house, did you ever hear from John Keith again? Never heard from him again. Anything? Just very briefly. Okay. Um, you were just asked if you ever told anyone, I'm sorry, if you told anyone what to tell the state police or investigators and your answer was no. Correct. Yeah. I don't I don't recall telling anyone to tell anybody anything. So, with regard to your statement, tell them the guy never went in the house. Who's the them? Do you mind if I go back and read? Take your time. I think I know. I just want to read it. [Music] The them was channel 4 went into DNA. You done with your answer? Yeah. You just asked me who that them was. And the answer is you were instructing people on the group chat to tell channel 4 that the guy never went in the house. Correct. Yes. This was on February 1st. Um, as I said, none of us in the house had any idea what happened to John O'Keefe. So, we instructed to we I was saying we don't know what happened. He never came in the house. That's what was my statement was. Sir, I didn't ask you for any of that just now, did I? You just asked me why I said that. I asked you who the them was. You didn't. You look like you asked me to elaborate. Okay. So, your answer to my question is the them was you were saying that channel 4 should be told that the guy never went in the house. Yes or no? Channel 4 was who I who I was referencing. Yes. No further question. All right. You are all set, Mr. McCabe. I will take those documents. Thank you very much. Yes. Thank you. Your next witness, please, Mr. Lley. Yes, sir. Coml