Commodity Arbitrage and Systematic Trading with Anan Jaa

[Music] we really think about this world as physical commodity Traders first and and how they might be reacting to these markets um and then look to just systematically trade around it and that's held Us in really good stead uh over the years as we think about uh you know taking this program further imagine spending an hour with the world's greatest Traders imagine learning from their experiences their successes and their failures imagine no more welcome to top Traders unplugged the place where you can learn from the best hedge fund managers in the world so you can take your manager due diligence or investment career to the next level before we begin today's conversation remember to keep two things in mind all the discussion we will have about investment performance is about the past and past performance does not guarantee or even infer anything about future performance ments also understand that there's a significant risk of financial loss with all investment strategies and you need to request and understand the specific risks from the investment manager about their product before you make investment decisions here's your host veteran hedge fund manager Neils costr Larson welcome to another episode in the open interest series on top Traders unpluged hosted by Moret seber in life as well as in trading maintaining a spirit of curiosity and open-mindedness is key and this is precisely what the open interest series is all about join Moritz as he engages in candid conversations with seasoned professionals from around the globe to uncover their insights successes and failures offering you a unique perspective on the investment landscape so with no further Ado please enjoy the conversation hello this is Merit Sebert and I'd like to welcome you to another episode of open interest on top Traders is unplugged today I'll be speaking with Anan Jaa who is the founder and CEO of Greenland Investment Management a HF fund focused on commodity Arbitrage strategies I met Anand about 5 years ago at a conference in Miami and we've stayed in touch ever since about two years or so ago I asked him for the first time if he'd like to speak about his trading on a podcast or webcast an offer he politely declined at the time as he didn't want to speak about his trading strategies on the air but then 3 weeks or so go I ran into Anand again in London at a conference and asked him again and this time around luckily he agreed to come on which is great because as I've said Anan has never been on a podcast before so this is a true first the main subject of our conversation today will be systematic commodity Arbitrage and spread trading we'll speak about location Arbitrage trades substitution spreads as well as the importance of Greenland's highfrequency trading Tech setup for the efficient implementation of their strategies so without any further delay Anand welcome to open interest it's a pleasure to be on maritz well it's been a long time in the making it's great to have you on I'm really looking forward to that um you've been very quiet about the things that you do and you know so this is going to be interesting I think I'm sure actually and but hey before we start it out I know you're based in Mumbai these days but could you please give us some additional background on yourself Greenland Commodities The Firm that you run I remember when we met in London a couple of weeks ago you mentioned that your family runs or used to run a commodity emergence business focused on steel scrap and that kind of like physical commodity trading conversations used to be pretty much normal around the dinner table at your house uh when you were growing up so please if you could tell us a little bit you know how you grew up your connection to the Commodities world and all that sure sure uh happy to now so as you said you know when uh I I grew up uh in in a family that was a family of commodity Merchants uh my grandfather actually back in the 80s uh had started a commodity merchant business uh trading a host of Commodities across the world uh my dad and my uncle took that over uh and you know now in the third generation 40 years later my brother is running uh that part of the business uh so for me growing up um being around physical commodity trading or conversations around physical commodity trading uh was just second nature you know terms like cfrs Bill of ladings letter of credits uh is is things that I I knew of as as a teenager uh because uh we used to hear about all the real world challenges that uh physical Traders uh actually face um you know as these conversations in the family business were ongoing uh so I find myself quite fortunate that all these years later uh I'm still involved in Commodities trading uh not necessarily from a physical aspect uh but we can learn a lot from what goes on in in in those physical businesses and Implement that in in our strategies uh so you know a little bit about myself um I I graduated degrees in finance and computer engineering uh from the University of Pennsylvania um I started out at aqr uh actually not on the commodity side but on uh the global stock selection side uh as a researcher npm over there uh in in the early 2000s and then um found myself back in India uh you know co-founded a hedge fund uh on Shore with two other colleagues it was actually the first hedge fund on Shore in India and then finally a few years later I found my calling uh in trading global commodity Arbitrage strategies and found that uh the insights that we could involve from our physical business in implementing our strategies uh was just tremendous and uh the mix of you know taking a systematic structured approach uh to investing in commodity location spreads uh plus the in information and insights from our physical business uh was a really powerful mix um and a different take uh on trading these commodity markets thanks for that Alan actually I'd like to go back to the aqr days now that you mentioned it you said you joined them in the early 2000s I think aqr wasn't like I think they got founded in the late 90s or mid 90s something like that so you were at aqr at a relatively early stage I mean how did you find it there as much as we all of Cliff's NES actually I like him a lot I think he's funny he's absolutely great listening to um you were working on equities was that something you found out Ah that's just not for me you're really you'd like to go back to Commodities and equities is not your thing tell us a little bit about how how it was at aqr back then uh sure sure so the week I joined aqr was uh actually the week of the Quant crisis U back in August of 2007 uh so definitely a really interesting time uh to see how a firm reacts with a tail event taking place uh and I was thrown right into it um I I think I I'm really fond of my time that I spent there at aqr um I think it was some of the smartest people that I was fortunate to have an opportunity to work with um and I think you know my takeaway from there um in terms of how it shapes my investing today is really about how aqr you think about risk management really careful sort of portfolio construction um and and we actually use a lot of those sort of insights uh and and ways of thinking in how we even manage the book today um so whether you're doing that within equities or applying similar concept to other asset classes um I I think the takeaways still remain the same um so I was really fortunate to have been there um you know at that time aqr was a much smaller shop I mean it still at around I believe 20 billion or so while I was there uh it's obviously significantly larger now um but um I I think a lot of my thinking about systematic investing is is really sort of driven by my time and experience uh at aqr cool um also one of the things that I'd like to touch on and you know this is maybe a distant memory for me but when we first met in in Miami I think a couple of years ago you mentioned that you had your start actually in the kind of like high frequency trading FX Market Market making business so kind of different to commodity Arbitrage trading what it is that you do today so I think your firm maybe you can speak a little bit about that like how has it evolved how did you start the business which Focus did the business have initially and how did it evolve over time sure so um actually when I started Greenland um we originally started out in 2013 um as a prop trading firm uh which trading my family Capital at that point um and and we were doing two things you know which uh seems a bit distinct from each other but uh still highly uh related uh you know the first was really doing high frequency Market making in the FX um you know we used to trade um FX forwards versus FX Futures make markets in the inter Bank markets and and then hedge ourselves uh in in the future side um we still do that today um and and and that was actually um what led us to go out and build high frequency trading systems you know low latency systems collocated servers across the globe uh was actually primarily driven uh by that business but even back in 2013 um even at that point we were also running uh these commodity Arbitrage strategies uh at the same time um and then along the way you know you realize there's actually a lot of synergy that you can get having those hft systems in place uh as how it applies to our commodity portfolio as well how difficult is it to me as a really I have no connection to the hft space whatsoever I mean how difficult is it to set something like that up I mean were you capable of doing that with your degree in computer science um do you need to fly around the world in order to connect with these exchanges and collocate with them and tell us a little bit about how that that part of the business Works which really is um still a little bit of a blackbox to me to be quite honest uh so it's it's it's not an easy business to to say the least uh it does take a lot of effort uh to get the right systems in place um you know you you got to get your as you mentioned you know the physical servers in each of the locations uh that that you want to be collocated at um you got to work with telec providers to find you know the fastest lines that can connect to different servers um you have a whole Tech stack that you're building out uh internally in terms of connecting into the exchanges processing orders or processing Market data uh and then on top of that you still got to build your alphas and your actual trading signals uh that that should hopefully go out in the markets and and make money uh so it's a pretty large undertaking uh that you have to do you can start out by um working with some providers that can you know providing provide you some hosting to get started with um you can work with some low latency um algo system providers as well uh but then over time if you really want to be competitive in the space you pretty much have to in-house uh all of that and and you can't really rely on third parties um I'd say in in that space in any case I mean we were not working with the objective of trying to be the fastest uh hft player uh in the world um you know we ran those strategies in a in a manner uh that allowed us to take meaningful amounts of overnight exposure so we didn't have to go home flat at the end of the day um it allowed our signals to be differentiated enough uh from the other hft Market participants uh so we didn't have to purely compete on speed um but if you did not have at least a base case uh collocated systems and and still operate in in you know micros seconds um it would not be a game that we would be able to play so so those systems are just table Stakes if you want to play those games uh But there again you know how how much you want to push that speed boundary um is is something that you can decide in relation to the types of Alphas uh that you looking to capture right so this is this is a part of the business that you set up in 2013 and you know you were still a prop shop back then I think you mentioned but you have decided to maintain it to the present day and later on in the conversation I think we'll speak about why that is important for the things that you actually trade at the moment right right absolutely um you know that's uh that is something that we set up way back then uh we still run that uh program today it is a it is a highly capacity constrainted program or as as you would imagine for anything that's high frequency traded um but we still continue to run it uh it's it's uh it's worked well for us and um we continue to invest uh in those systems as well and uh because not only benefits that particular program but it invests uh it benefits the rest of our um investing that we do as [Music] well okay maybe let's dive into the things that you're doing these days um by the way for the benefit of the audience we won't be speaking about performance numbers or anything but I think it's fair of me to share that um when I first met an on you were I think something around a 100 million or maybe slightly below that I don't remember but you've scaled quite s you know successfully shall I say to north of 1 billion in AUM um at the present time uh which which is just great and I how to look at your returns um obviously people can find you uh through your website which will'll share the show notes and and contact you but your returns are really amazing I should say and very differentiated and uncorrelated to what other systematic Traders do so framing it you are a systematic Commodities arbitrator uh what you're doing is not based on fundamentals or you know discretionary analysis of one market versus another but you're using your technology and your tax stack in order to find out Arbitrage opportunities across a number of different commodity Pairs and relationships that you have defined and then you will essentially trade them sometimes hold them for days or weeks and sometimes you know scale up and down uh positions and exposures even on an intraday basis I think is that is that a fair a fair intro before we start uh getting into some of the details uh yes absolutely uh but but I would uh also sort of add to that that uh our entire thinking and philosophy is still driven around the fundamentals of these markets how uh different agents in these markets whether it's the commodity merchants or the producers or the consumers might be thinking about uh holding or trading of these Commodities um and then we look to just apply a systematic you know decision-making process on how we go around betting on these fundamentals that we've looked to U model out um and then trade it in this uh best execution manner through these high frequency trading systems there yes I I remember like you say it's all around Transportation costs and these type of things which are near and dear to your heart you were essentially brought up in a family that was focused on Transportation costs and getting ships to run from you know one continent to another so this this reflects in I guess your systematic trading decisions today maybe let's take an example we can start with something that let's just say is a an easier example of a location Arbitrage trade where you'd be say arbitraging the price of gold or gold Futures in one location versus uh the price in another location um say comx gold versus um Shanghai gold right that is something that you do uh yes uh that that is uh something that would fit right within our wheelhouse right so shall we shall we run through this like you know how would how does how does such a trade come into existence what are you looking at what's important there sure so you know that that's a fairly simplistic uh you know trade and example of there um if you really look at uh you know the quality of gold that trades on on these different exchanges first thing to think of is okay is the gold actually fungible right is the same grade of gold right is it 99.995 gold or 999 gold uh and and can that actually be picked up from one location and delivered to the other um so if you're looking at say a comx gold or an lbma gold and and looking to sort of sell it into Shanghai uh questions that will come up is that okay what is the cost of transporting gold from one of these markets uh if I have say a gold in in a vault in in London or or in New York and I want to actually ship it to Shanghai uh what's that endtoend cost going to look like uh gold goes by effort uh so so you got to figure out the cost of actually moving it uh over there um you got to price the gold in Shanghai in appropriate uh currency adjusted terms right because the local gold there trades in R&B um you know you have price it appropriately um in USD uh taking into account when you would actually be converting your USD to R&B um or or when you would receive R&B for delivering your gold uh into China um and and then see if given the pricing differentials that are trading across these two markets if net of this endtoend Logistics cost is there an excess spread available or not um and basis that you can say okay if let's say Shanghai gold is trading at a premium net of all of the endtoend logistics cost there is a genuine physical Arbitrage that's possible that a gold importer in China could take advantage of uh and is very likely going to take advantage of by actually going and physically doing that particular OB and that's really what we're going to look to bet on right so we're going to go short uh on Shanghai we're going to go long uh the global gold market whether it's London or New York uh that we're pricing against and look at uh what that pricing differential is effectively betting that as the physical gold Traders move the inventory from one of these markets into Shanghai that's going to you know increase the supply in Shanghai it's going to reduce the supply offshore and that's going to get these Market gets back into an equilibrium causing convergence of this spread uh to eventually play out um so the way we really think about this from a first principes philosophy is that what is the genuine physical Arbitrage that a commodity Merchant involved in this commodity would be able to take advantage of and um that's really what we're going to bet on right and and we're only expressing our views uh through through the paper markets or the derivative markets uh but the underlying thinking is what is a physical player going to do given this particular scenario of relative pricing across these two markets so you will take positions in the Futures markets in this example you wouldn't be seeing the trade to its end or see it through on the physical side right I mean like in your example the uh shanhai based physical gold dealer may actually be taking advantage of the Arbitrage opportunity here by engaging in a physical Arbitrage trade right actually ordering the gold from New York or London having it shipped paying for the freight having it have it arrive in in in in you know Shanghai where the business the local business needs it and then essentially they were able to Source it for a cheaper price but but you don't you don't go all through all of that trouble you really you take the position in the Futures markets and you wait for that spread to close and narrow and come back into equilibrium or fair pricing that that's correct so we are not looking to actually hold the physical gold or actually ship the physical gold uh you know given our uh physical business or commodity merchant business as part of the family if you know we really wanted to do that uh we could probably get it done through that business uh but that's not the intention through through our investment programs uh to do any of that we've never had to do that uh in our history um but as we are sort of relying on the commodity Merchants to actually do that trade and get that market in equilibrium we are very sensitive to events that might uh disrupt that particular flow or that trade flow of that commodity right so the ARB only works uh or that spread only converges if one physical Traders can actually physically move that material and and you know take advantage of that excess return um and there and that there are enough of those physical players such that enough inventory can move over uh to address the excess demand that is there say in the Shanghai market uh in in this example um so we are very cognizant about um specific events that might be taking place uh that that might lead to uh some distortions in those trade so when we go one level down with that trade I mean gold has a very stable forward or Futures C it's essentially a funding trade it doesn't have the say backwardation in contango Dynamics or seasonal Dynamics which some other Commodities say the agricultural Commodities have but in order to get that you know in order for you to get interest in the trade I mean do you actually keep track every day or you know periodically of what the cost of air freight insured air rate of gold from London to Shanghai or from New York to London or from New York to Shanghai actually is and what the insurance Premia are is that kind of like do you have your Market intelligence and your feelers out to get updated prices on that because sounds to me that without that information you can't really know whether the trade is attractive or not correct uh so with with gold you know there there are two important aspects of here so um absolutely we need to know and do actively track on a daily basis uh what that uh insurance premiums are what the a rate is uh for transporting the gold across each of these routes that the care about um and we sort of trying to price what the cheapest deliver path uh for the gold is going to be um and that sort of what we're going to look to Define as as our Fair values um but as you said right because uh gold trades a lot more like a currency than say a pure commodity um and and very different from say an agricultural commodity uh the spread that we're looking to trade or or you know the volatility of that spread is quite muted um you know you you're not going to get most of the time uh extremely large deviations uh that you can take advantage of right um you're you're really going to play for some bips um when when you're looking to take advantage of uh these spread movements across that fair value um so here is where sort of our highfrequency trading systems come into place because if you don't have a really good execution systems that can take advantage of a few bips deviations uh in these spreads uh in something like gold for particular it's not a market uh that you can actually participate in for most of the time right at times in stressed environments uh that spread can widen out and widen out meaningfully uh where you can participate in that spread without having high frequency systems in place but uh let's call it 95% of the time um you would actually not be able to put any exposure on uh because your sure slippage and Market impact of just entering and exiting the positions uh would eat up any expected return that you would have uh from Trading that particular spread or trading the deviations of that spread uh from your arrived at fair value um so your ability to then get a really tight estimate on that fair value and then having the right execution systems that allows you to trade uh you know small deviations but frequent deviations from that fair value is what will allow us to actively participate in that trade uh and put on meaningful risk where we're not just waiting for that uh two or three sigma event to occur uh before we can put risk on uh on a trade like that right shows why your hft setup is so important and actually about three sigma event I want to get to that in a second there's something I have in the back of my head that I want to bring up but before we go there there's also I guess a component that with respect to the specific trait we're talking about you need to take into account is the if you're trading in Shanghai and you're trading in say on the comx or in London you presumably don't have any margin netting benefit there right because you're facing two different Clearing Houses uh one in China say the other one in in New York um I'm not sure what your PB setup type of is but you probably deposit margin in these two different venues independently without any netting effect and there is always with brokers um unless you s self- clear I'm not sure what your setup is there's always a funding spread that you pay on that margin which you also have to take into account here right that's correct so you know because we're trading across uh different exchanges um we are funding margin on each side uh so our typical margin to equity that we run tends to be a lot higher than um say a lot of other ctas or other spread Traders uh that that might be there um so you really got to pay attention to you know your cash management and ensure you have sufficient liquidity uh given that you are running a higher margin to equity uh we do work very closely with our clearers to you know minimize the impact of funding costs uh on the margins that that we're placing and uh particularly now as as rates have risen um the team spent a lot of effort uh ensuring that uh we can get not entirely up to risk free on on all cash that's sitting with us or on the entire Equity but very reasonable spread uh to cash to risk-free on uh the entire Equity that's sitting with us so the net say funding cost as such is is not as uh intense um but you do also have to think about the funding cost that the physical Trader is going to incur right so now physical Trad uh is moving that go physically from say New York or London earlier when rates were zero they could move it um with uh a lot smaller margin because their funding costs were so low but as that funding cost Rises they they also have to think about U the margin that they are baking into their trade um and that has to reflect uh in our models as well so in the back of my head because you mentioned that five Sigma or whatever my event during Co times and earlier you said you know your trade kind of also depends on whether the physical world is actually able to move the commodity from A to B and affect the Arbitrage but during covid you know some ships stopped sailing right and and and the flows kind of didn't work anymore which is and I don't remember the specifics but there was this moment in time where people were very focused on arbitraging or you know possibly arbitraging gold between London and New York remember what I'm talking about there apparently there was a big disconnect in prices and you could ship it from or fly it from uh London to New York I think this was the direction if I'm not mistaken but you couldn't really get it done because you couldn't move it or it was difficult to move was was that the trade exactly exactly um so during uh Co when covid hit um you know all the planes were grounded right if if you recall uh you know countries didn't want people coming in from other countries in the world uh so all the planes were grounded uh most gold in the world actually gets shipped on U normal sort of Passenger airplanes in the cargo holes of Passenger airplanes uh it's not that it's going in some dedicated Air Freight it doesn't go by ship because it's too expensive it takes too long uh gold being high value product it it really just flies in a normal sort of passenger planes and as that uh gold sort of or or as as those planes sort of went offline uh you got to a point where you actually couldn't close the ARB right so as New York started moving into a premium uh you couldn't get gold from London uh to New York um and close the ARB and and you know given the uh spec differences between those two goals the actual ARB is that it it actually goes from London to a Swiss refiner uh who who then you know shapes it into a form that's acceptable on the Comax and then it gets shipped out uh or flown to New York for delivery uh but as those planes were not uh flying the arm sort of broke down uh and and that led to you know a large dislocation in that particular spread at that point and really widened out um we did not get caught up in that uh fortunately because um you know again because we take this truly fundamental view as to what's driving these markets um we were able to say okay that look uh planes are no longer flying uh this ARB no longer makes sense because you can't physically close the ARB um so we were able to from a risk perspective override our models to say okay do not participate in this ARB right now so we got saved when that particular ARB sort of extended out um and only when we started seeing you know uh air traffic pick up again did we allow the models to turn back on and and actually you know start taking risk on on these trades again and we could benefit uh as those spreads converged so it is very critical to understand what is going on in the physical markets because if you're taking a purely itical approach to this and you know trying to trade some reversion to some rolling mean um you can have these sort of tail events which are you know driven by the underlying sort of physical economics that make that trade no longer useful for a particular point in time that's right um you know we see this over and over again and you know a couple of weeks ago I had another firm on and we were speaking about you know grain Arbitrage trade between South Africa and and the US and Europe and uh again during covid these spreads completely disconnected and by the way they're also like you they're looking at the markets really figuring out what's going on they're not just using a say Z score or like a rolling deviation from the mean in order to figure out whether whether a trait makes sense or not but still you can easily get caught in these things and uh this can be extremely painful [Music] may maybe we we leave gold aside for now we use this as a relatively simple example before we maybe speak about one or two others which which I thought uh are really interesting how many markets are you actually looking at we just mentioned Shanghai gold so there's already a Chinese market there I know that you're trading um the majority if not all of the onshore China Chinese Futures markets but maybe give us a background on like you know how many line items do you have in the portfolio how many spread relationships uh do you consider and all that sure so today in in the program we trade uh 25 unique relationships uh in in the program um that sort of translates into around you know 40 to 45 line items uh that that we might be trading um if I'm say Trading old across you know four different markets uh that's one relationship for us um we run a fairly Diversified program uh across the different commodity sectors so it's pretty much across precious metals base Metals agricultural Commodities as well as energy um so we do want to run a diversified exposure to these sort of relationships um that that we want to be betting on so part of you know what we try and do from an operations perspective is actually try and get Market access uh to as many markets uh that that we can get where we have liquid commodity markets trading um so recently you know we went live on trading on our Q license in China uh so we can now access China onshore Futures as a qualified foreign investor um and trade it like any other Global Futures Market um with it's pretty complex operational setup uh timec consuming setup to get in place but we think that that gives us uh a meaningful Edge um in terms of just having you know maximum Market access and allows us to diversify the program quite meaningfully got it um you just mentioned copper I presume correct me if I'm wrong that like a copper ARP trade between say comix copper and and N LM copper kind of like works in the same way that we've just uh chatted about the gold trade whereas like you're factoring in transportation cost maybe copper now actually sails on the ship and doesn't fly through the air but is it fair to say that it would kind of like be the same rationale behind it or the same driver that you're using uh for the gold trade right so as As you move on to something like copper um that that's where these trades actually get a lot more interesting right because complexity actually goes up more exponentially when you're looking at Copper you can look at Shanghai copper lme copper comx copper and and and we can trade a combination of all of these uh against each other um now when you're thinking about the transportation costs uh you're really looking at uh every possible Warehouse to every possible other Warehouse in in an opposite Market um you know so the lme for example has Global warehouses um not only in London right it's got Warehouse es in Rotterdam in Malaysia Singapore in the US China has its warehouses in Shanghai for Shanghai copper um so now when you're actually looking at these Transportation costs it's no longer you know one or two locations uh that you're trying to price or one or two routes that you're trying to price um you actually have to price this from every single possible Warehouse uh say of the lme uh to the other Market that you're looking at right so whether it's any possible comx Warehouse which again has multiple warehouses across the US um or to say Shanghai set of warehouses uh for Shanghai copper yeah so how do you get about you know obtaining these Transportation costs is there like a A specialized broker Market out there that you can kind of like phone up and say hey what would it cost me uh to deliver from you know one of the lme warehouses say the Malaysia Warehouse of the lme to to Shanghai is is there actually can you just call somebody or email somebody and they come back with okay this is what it costs today on so so that data is actually really hard uh to come by uh you can't really go out and say subscrib to that level of granular data out there you know the data providers on shipping data for example or shipping cost data um give you very coarse data right you can get it from one continent to the other but if I want from specific Warehouse to another or I want Inland Trucking costs uh you you really can't go around getting that data by simply subscribing to it um for this data on our end we lean very heavily um on our commodity merchant business uh that that we have which is the family business uh you know that business uh due to its size and scale has you know contracts with all the major Shipping Lines uh the truckers warehouses insurance providers so we can actually get from them every day for every single route uh that we are interested in uh the cost uh end to endend of what it takes to move a commodity uh from one of those warehouses to another Warehouse uh that that we're interested in uh so that becomes uh this really key proprietary data set for us uh that we can use to define Our Fair values um have a really tight estimate um on what that at beyond what level physical ARB uh Traders will actually kick in um and use that to then trade systematically any deviations from that fair value right so that is a huge Edge right you have that kind of like underpinning that background that connection to the to the physical worlds then you combine that with your with the alphas that you have which you know are are are good as as well on top of that you have the hft setup which allows you to very efficiently get into these Arbitrage trades even for a few basis points where other Market participants essentially need to stay on the sidelines because they don't have that that trading efficiency that you can bring to the table here exactly and and it is about you know the integration across uh each of these areas when put together um we we think you know you sort of get the best result when it comes to trying to trade uh these particular markets or these particular spread opportunities uh because we have a tight estimate around that fair value uh you can then think of trading small deviations from that fair value right because if your fair value itself had a very large error term uh automatically you would have to wait for a large deviation from that uh before you can even think about participating because you're just not sure uh as to what that end to-end Transportation cost might look like so so now because we have a tight estimate of fair value and then we have the high frequency systems in place we can configure our portfolio construction to say okay um I can look to rebalance you know on a realtime tick by tick basis if there is sufficient movement in the spread um where my view changes even by a few percentage points uh to go in and trade um a marginal change in my exposure where I can either size up or size down my exposure to that spread uh because we can have certainty that yes um this fair value is is is highly accurate it's it's actually executable and now I know that I have hft systems in place uh that was going to limit the amount of Market impact and slippage that I'm going to face when I go in and trade uh into these spread markets U you know number of legs that you are looking to trade at one go in one shot uh you know could be um you know anywhere from two to five legs uh depending on the complexity of the trade uh and the spread that you're looking to capture so the amount of slippage and Market impact that you'll face uh can be a very significant percentage of the pnl that you then give up um if you're trying to trade small deviations uh so it's really the combination of it are all put together and that to trading a diversified set of these opportunities across all the major sectors um is is we think a really Val a good value proposition great that you mentioned the you know the multiple legs that you may trade um during our prep call you mentioned that that those trades are actually the ones I think you mentioned that you're um I want to say favoring maybe is the wrong word but they they play a large role in your portfolio essentially a sometimes like a sub substitution Arbitrage trade but that trade then includes a location Arbitrage as well right so one example would be for instance New York Coco versus uh versus London coco or even more complex who could go okay we're trading um New York heating oil arbitraging that against uh London gas oil and you know some kind of like cracks spread type of way it goes into Tokyo crude that is stuff that you do right so so that that is all things that we are happy to do um again the underlying principles uh that we're looking to bet on is that is there a strong fundamental economic rationale as to why these spreads if they widen out uh should converge back to some sense of what that fair value is look like right so even when we're saying we're happy to trade substitution um Arbitrage over here where we're okay with slightly different grades uh so like London cooko versus New York Coco um we like those opportunities more so when there is a geographic Transportation cost element into it uh because we think we can bring some Edge to the table when we're trading that and then more importantly you know what we're looking at saying is that okay are these genuine substitutes for one another right so can a consumer who's consuming one grade um quickly uh switch to consuming another grade uh if uh the primary grate that they're consuming gets too expensive you know so for example something that we would not look to trade um would be a Brent versus WTI so even though they're highly correlated U sort of grades of trud um it's it's really hard for a Refinery to suddenly start processing Brent uh if they've been set up to process WTI right so so that spread between uh TI and Brent uh can keep widening and narrowing uh but it's not necessarily going to trigger um a genuine sort of substitution effect um in the physical markets uh because the cost of you know reconfiguring the refiner refinery to process the other grade is is too expensive um so we would stay away from those kind of Trades um and and really sort of focus on only those set of relationships uh that are going to be very tightly configured good and then similarly on you know cracks and Crush spreads is there actual economic flow that's going in from that one market into the others uh where you're going in from you know your input Commodities to those output Commodities or are those markets genuinely just distinct from each other and having their own sort of Supply demand Dynamics with no way of actually bridging uh the flows between them because if you don't have true trade flows uh bridging these markets then these spreads can actually dislocate and remain dislocated um so really diving into the fundamentals of these markets as a starting point to understand where the consumers are where the producers are and um what are the linkages that you have between these markets is really critical before we even say here's a relationship uh you know that's part of the universe uh that we're even good to go and research uh any further one market that I'd like to bring up another just um coming to mind as we speak is is that gas because you know you have a molecule of natural gas used to be fairly constrained around where that gas is produced and then deliver to Henry Hub ttf but now that market has changed right LG is growing a gas molecule can now I don't want to say relatively easily but it it definitely can travel on ship on a specialized you know lmg tanker uh from one location to another and essentially find a home where the price is highest right the the there's a global market for for lmg um have you become more active in in this market given that it has in a way structurally changed to become more Global or is it still a market that you're staying away from kind of like calling them like you would with WTI and Brands like well they're really distinct you know Henry Hub is one thing and ttf is really another and we're not looking at at at any relationship there right so so you know we we won't comment on um you know our specific involvement in in any of these particular gas markets uh but I think uh to your larger Point um I totally agree that these markets uh which historically have been actually quite distinct markets uh are now actually getting integrated AS Global um because um as um LG capacity uh ramps up both in terms of um you know liquefying and reg gasifying on both ends um as LG shipping capacity ramps up um you are effectively moving to a world where you are going to have sort of a large single gas market um where gas is going to go effectively to the highest bit barring any you know import export restrictions that uh you know countries might choose to impose um so uh that becomes a market over time that historically um we would stay away from and and more and more um as these capacities come online uh they become integrated and a true sort of location ARB uh kicks in over there um we're not all the way there uh so we're sort of on that Spectrum right right now how we specifically get involved today in that market um is is something um you know I I would not be able to comment on but uh I think this is an important aspect that uh you know players in these markets uh are pretty much aware of now and and will be a significant driver for how gas is traded going forward uh you know that's no longer say a local Henry Hub Market with you know various basis trades all locally and geographically only in the US how export capacity is and how exports are going out uh is going to be as key a driver to pricing even for him up than any of the other [Music] markets moving away from specific trade examples and markets um when you put it all together in a portfolio context how do you think about that you know is there kind of like a rule that says okay I need to have at least a certain number of spreads on any given point in time in order to have a certain level of diversification or would you be able to also run a very concentrated book because say the only thing that happens is actually the gold market and you know all the other markets aren't interested uh interesting or nothing is really moving enough for you to get interested in it how do you go about putting all of these I think you mentioned 25 uh unique relationships that you're monitoring how how you going about pulling all of that together sure so when we think of uh each of these uh spread relationships uh that that the system is trading the way we like to run it is is Let each relationship sort of run completely independent of the other and if say there are a host of spreads that are not on um we're not going to take the risk that's allocated to them and and load them up on spreads where um which are on on at that or have attractive opportunities uh at that point the nature of this game is that you're anyways taking time wearing risk on individual spreads in the portfolio if you are going to you know actively reallocate risk uh and load up on other interesting opportunities just because something start on you're sort of going to be doubling down uh on that risk timing that you're anyways doing on these spreads uh so we like to run them independently um we like to you know size the overall exposures or the max risks that spreads can go up to such that an individual spread uh can give us a certain level of uh volatility contribution to the portfolio over time and we will go in sort of statically allocate how much risk we want then over the long term from Individual spreads taking into account uh what the covariance across the spreads are taking into account you know the tail risks that uh similar spreads might be exposed to whether it's you know sector risk or producer country risk or consumer country risk uh where you want to diversify those risks uh as much as possible but then once we do that static risk allocation we don't go and look to sort of uh shift risk from one to the other uh just because a particular opportunity is looking attractive uh so we do try and Target a constant vola on the portfolio over time but because we're taking time varing risk what it sort of means is that at any point in time we might be running well below our uh Target level of risk or our constant VA Target uh and at other times you'll be running higher than that ball Target uh it is a function of how many opportunities are attractive and to what extent uh at any point in time um but that said again because we trade in this sort of Continuum um where we are putting you know small amounts of exposures on even as spread deviate uh minimally uh it sort of means that we tend to have a lot of positions on on average right so it's it's not going to be the case that portfolio is going to only hold you know two relationships out of the 25 at a point in time um we'll typically have some positions on in around 13 or 14 of these uh at any point in time uh the size of those positions could obviously vary depending on the attract of the opportunity right do you have maybe a final question on that on on risk management is there like a a point also where there's like a stop loss or you'd say this is enough the spread has moved uh too much against us it has widened even more to a point where you say like okay we're calling it quits we're leaving it would you really if you have determined an Arbitrage opportunity that you think and you know will play out you would then essentially stick to that trade and uh see through to its end right so you know when we've spoken of the Arbitrage opportunities for starters right we've spoken primarily of the deviation from uh the fair value or the transportation cost uh the models that we run are actually multifactor models where we say that look this physical AR is the primary call it value Factor but then we do want to explicitly and quantitatively account for you know Supply demand relative inventory levels Market sentiment factors uh that can help sort of determine how quickly uh this ARB might come back or whether it's going to be stretched for a longer periods of time uh but let's say even in this multiactor approach uh if you get to a point where the spreads are continuing to expand against you um we do run automated draw down controls where after a point we gradually start taking risk down and at further sort of predefined points uh we would automatically be 100% out of the spread uh we think it's really important to build in this automated sort of draw down controls uh when you're trading these spreads uh because like everything in finance is fat tailed um and and negatively skewed spread Trading particular in any form U that you construct it uh is going to be even more negatively skewed so you got to build for uh negative tale events um that are going to happen uh every now and again um you know it could have been because there's a policy change by a government suddenly duties or taxes have been changed Imports or exports have been restricted from a certain country that's an important player uh for that particular commodity and you can get taale events in these spreads as a result of that so it's really important that you are in a position to very quickly and automatically uh reduce the losses that you face in those sort of event scenarios and hopefully because you're running a diversified program over here the impact on that of that event is fairly muted uh on the portfolio as a whole speaking about the skew and you know maybe uh in prepar of closing this conversation down which by the way I think is is absolutely fantastic but on spreads I mean there's more of a tail risk you know like you said something happens uh policy change import duties um you know weather risk materializing covid all these type of things but I mean is it fair to say that it's it's really negatively skewed I mean it it does have the tail exposure in both ends right it it simply is I would say more tail exposed a more lepto distribution whether the tail is is negative or positive remains to be seen it can go go both ways or would you say it's really you know negative negatively tailed exposure that you have there it is going to be sort of negatively tailed because uh you know principally you're still trading reversion over here right so um if you are sort of Crossing fair value you're anyways U you know exiting out of your positions right so um how highly unlikely unless there is a huge gap event uh in in your favor um highly unlikely you will benefit from a tail move uh on the ab absolutely no you're you're absolutely right you are more the mean reverting fair value reversion type of Trader whereas you know some other spread Traders they may actually look to say you know trade momentum in these spreads and they may have a different tail experience than what you're describing but you're absolutely correct kind of like with any mean reversion strategy right right you're uh you're getting in at the point where you think a a spread is stretched and um that in by itself because you want to go back to the mean but if it doesn't go back to the mean you really only have the tail on the other side that can sting you exactly exactly Anan fantastic is there anything that you'd like to bring up anything that you think we should speak about but didn't no thank you morit I think we you know covered all the key facets of of how we think about the world uh you know I think it's uh the key takeaway if there is one is that um we really think about this world as physical commodity Traders first and and how they might be reacting to these markets um and then look to just systematically trade around it and that's held Us in really good stead uh over the years as we think about uh you know taking this program further fantastic so thank you a million for doing this I know it's been a long time in the making we wanted to get you on for a long time we finally made it happen and listeners please make sure you follow Anand and Greenland and as ever should you have any questions be that to me or to Anand please email us at info toop TR on black where we'll pick it up and absolutely respond so thank you big time for listening it was really great we'll soon be back with another episode of open interest so please stay tuned thanks for listening to top Traders unplugged if you feel you learned something of value from today's episode the best way to stay updated is to go on over to iTunes and subscribe to the show so that you'll be sure to get all the new episodes as they're released we have some amazing guests lined up for you and to ensure our show continues to grow please leave us an honest rating and review on iTunes it only takes a minute and it's the best way to show us you love the podcast we'll see you next time on top Traders unplugged [Music]

[Music] we really think about this world as physical commodity Traders first and and how they might be reacting to these markets um and then look to just systematically trade around it and that&#39;s held Us in really good stead uh over the years as we think about uh you know taking this program further imagine spending an hour with the world&#39;s greatest Traders imagine learning from their experiences their successes and their failures imagine no more welcome to top Traders unplugged the place where you can learn from the best hedge fund managers in the world so you can take your manager due diligence or investment career to the next level before we begin today&#39;s conversation remember to keep two things in mind all the discussion we will have about investment performance is about the past and past performance does not guarantee or even infer anything about future performance ments also understand that there&#39;s a significant risk of financial loss with all investment strategies and you need to request and understand the specific risks from the investment manager about their product before you make investment decisions here&#39;s your host veteran hedge fund manager Neils costr Larson welcome to another episode in the open interest series on top Traders unpluged hosted by Moret seber in life as well as in trading maintaining a spirit of curiosity and open-mindedness is key and this is precisely what the open interest series is all about join Moritz as he engages in candid conversations with seasoned professionals from around the globe to uncover their insights successes and failures offering you a unique perspective on the investment landscape so with no further Ado please enjoy the conversation hello this is Merit Sebert and I&#39;d like to welcome you to another episode of open interest on top Traders is unplugged today I&#39;ll be speaking with Anan Jaa who is the founder and CEO of Greenland Investment Management a HF fund focused on commodity Arbitrage strategies I met Anand about 5 years ago at a conference in Miami and we&#39;ve stayed in touch ever since about two years or so ago I asked him for the first time if he&#39;d like to speak about his trading on a podcast or webcast an offer he politely declined at the time as he didn&#39;t want to speak about his trading strategies on the air but then 3 weeks or so go I ran into Anand again in London at a conference and asked him again and this time around luckily he agreed to come on which is great because as I&#39;ve said Anan has never been on a podcast before so this is a true first the main subject of our conversation today will be systematic commodity Arbitrage and spread trading we&#39;ll speak about location Arbitrage trades substitution spreads as well as the importance of Greenland&#39;s highfrequency trading Tech setup for the efficient implementation of their strategies so without any further delay Anand welcome to open interest it&#39;s a pleasure to be on maritz well it&#39;s been a long time in the making it&#39;s great to have you on I&#39;m really looking forward to that um you&#39;ve been very quiet about the things that you do and you know so this is going to be interesting I think I&#39;m sure actually and but hey before we start it out I know you&#39;re based in Mumbai these days but could you please give us some additional background on yourself Greenland Commodities The Firm that you run I remember when we met in London a couple of weeks ago you mentioned that your family runs or used to run a commodity emergence business focused on steel scrap and that kind of like physical commodity trading conversations used to be pretty much normal around the dinner table at your house uh when you were growing up so please if you could tell us a little bit you know how you grew up your connection to the Commodities world and all that sure sure uh happy to now so as you said you know when uh I I grew up uh in in a family that was a family of commodity Merchants uh my grandfather actually back in the 80s uh had started a commodity merchant business uh trading a host of Commodities across the world uh my dad and my uncle took that over uh and you know now in the third generation 40 years later my brother is running uh that part of the business uh so for me growing up um being around physical commodity trading or conversations around physical commodity trading uh was just second nature you know terms like cfrs Bill of ladings letter of credits uh is is things that I I knew of as as a teenager uh because uh we used to hear about all the real world challenges that uh physical Traders uh actually face um you know as these conversations in the family business were ongoing uh so I find myself quite fortunate that all these years later uh I&#39;m still involved in Commodities trading uh not necessarily from a physical aspect uh but we can learn a lot from what goes on in in in those physical businesses and Implement that in in our strategies uh so you know a little bit about myself um I I graduated degrees in finance and computer engineering uh from the University of Pennsylvania um I started out at aqr uh actually not on the commodity side but on uh the global stock selection side uh as a researcher npm over there uh in in the early 2000s and then um found myself back in India uh you know co-founded a hedge fund uh on Shore with two other colleagues it was actually the first hedge fund on Shore in India and then finally a few years later I found my calling uh in trading global commodity Arbitrage strategies and found that uh the insights that we could involve from our physical business in implementing our strategies uh was just tremendous and uh the mix of you know taking a systematic structured approach uh to investing in commodity location spreads uh plus the in information and insights from our physical business uh was a really powerful mix um and a different take uh on trading these commodity markets thanks for that Alan actually I&#39;d like to go back to the aqr days now that you mentioned it you said you joined them in the early 2000s I think aqr wasn&#39;t like I think they got founded in the late 90s or mid 90s something like that so you were at aqr at a relatively early stage I mean how did you find it there as much as we all of Cliff&#39;s NES actually I like him a lot I think he&#39;s funny he&#39;s absolutely great listening to um you were working on equities was that something you found out Ah that&#39;s just not for me you&#39;re really you&#39;d like to go back to Commodities and equities is not your thing tell us a little bit about how how it was at aqr back then uh sure sure so the week I joined aqr was uh actually the week of the Quant crisis U back in August of 2007 uh so definitely a really interesting time uh to see how a firm reacts with a tail event taking place uh and I was thrown right into it um I I think I I&#39;m really fond of my time that I spent there at aqr um I think it was some of the smartest people that I was fortunate to have an opportunity to work with um and I think you know my takeaway from there um in terms of how it shapes my investing today is really about how aqr you think about risk management really careful sort of portfolio construction um and and we actually use a lot of those sort of insights uh and and ways of thinking in how we even manage the book today um so whether you&#39;re doing that within equities or applying similar concept to other asset classes um I I think the takeaways still remain the same um so I was really fortunate to have been there um you know at that time aqr was a much smaller shop I mean it still at around I believe 20 billion or so while I was there uh it&#39;s obviously significantly larger now um but um I I think a lot of my thinking about systematic investing is is really sort of driven by my time and experience uh at aqr cool um also one of the things that I&#39;d like to touch on and you know this is maybe a distant memory for me but when we first met in in Miami I think a couple of years ago you mentioned that you had your start actually in the kind of like high frequency trading FX Market Market making business so kind of different to commodity Arbitrage trading what it is that you do today so I think your firm maybe you can speak a little bit about that like how has it evolved how did you start the business which Focus did the business have initially and how did it evolve over time sure so um actually when I started Greenland um we originally started out in 2013 um as a prop trading firm uh which trading my family Capital at that point um and and we were doing two things you know which uh seems a bit distinct from each other but uh still highly uh related uh you know the first was really doing high frequency Market making in the FX um you know we used to trade um FX forwards versus FX Futures make markets in the inter Bank markets and and then hedge ourselves uh in in the future side um we still do that today um and and and that was actually um what led us to go out and build high frequency trading systems you know low latency systems collocated servers across the globe uh was actually primarily driven uh by that business but even back in 2013 um even at that point we were also running uh these commodity Arbitrage strategies uh at the same time um and then along the way you know you realize there&#39;s actually a lot of synergy that you can get having those hft systems in place uh as how it applies to our commodity portfolio as well how difficult is it to me as a really I have no connection to the hft space whatsoever I mean how difficult is it to set something like that up I mean were you capable of doing that with your degree in computer science um do you need to fly around the world in order to connect with these exchanges and collocate with them and tell us a little bit about how that that part of the business Works which really is um still a little bit of a blackbox to me to be quite honest uh so it&#39;s it&#39;s it&#39;s not an easy business to to say the least uh it does take a lot of effort uh to get the right systems in place um you know you you got to get your as you mentioned you know the physical servers in each of the locations uh that that you want to be collocated at um you got to work with telec providers to find you know the fastest lines that can connect to different servers um you have a whole Tech stack that you&#39;re building out uh internally in terms of connecting into the exchanges processing orders or processing Market data uh and then on top of that you still got to build your alphas and your actual trading signals uh that that should hopefully go out in the markets and and make money uh so it&#39;s a pretty large undertaking uh that you have to do you can start out by um working with some providers that can you know providing provide you some hosting to get started with um you can work with some low latency um algo system providers as well uh but then over time if you really want to be competitive in the space you pretty much have to in-house uh all of that and and you can&#39;t really rely on third parties um I&#39;d say in in that space in any case I mean we were not working with the objective of trying to be the fastest uh hft player uh in the world um you know we ran those strategies in a in a manner uh that allowed us to take meaningful amounts of overnight exposure so we didn&#39;t have to go home flat at the end of the day um it allowed our signals to be differentiated enough uh from the other hft Market participants uh so we didn&#39;t have to purely compete on speed um but if you did not have at least a base case uh collocated systems and and still operate in in you know micros seconds um it would not be a game that we would be able to play so so those systems are just table Stakes if you want to play those games uh But there again you know how how much you want to push that speed boundary um is is something that you can decide in relation to the types of Alphas uh that you looking to capture right so this is this is a part of the business that you set up in 2013 and you know you were still a prop shop back then I think you mentioned but you have decided to maintain it to the present day and later on in the conversation I think we&#39;ll speak about why that is important for the things that you actually trade at the moment right right absolutely um you know that&#39;s uh that is something that we set up way back then uh we still run that uh program today it is a it is a highly capacity constrainted program or as as you would imagine for anything that&#39;s high frequency traded um but we still continue to run it uh it&#39;s it&#39;s uh it&#39;s worked well for us and um we continue to invest uh in those systems as well and uh because not only benefits that particular program but it invests uh it benefits the rest of our um investing that we do as [Music] well okay maybe let&#39;s dive into the things that you&#39;re doing these days um by the way for the benefit of the audience we won&#39;t be speaking about performance numbers or anything but I think it&#39;s fair of me to share that um when I first met an on you were I think something around a 100 million or maybe slightly below that I don&#39;t remember but you&#39;ve scaled quite s you know successfully shall I say to north of 1 billion in AUM um at the present time uh which which is just great and I how to look at your returns um obviously people can find you uh through your website which will&#39;ll share the show notes and and contact you but your returns are really amazing I should say and very differentiated and uncorrelated to what other systematic Traders do so framing it you are a systematic Commodities arbitrator uh what you&#39;re doing is not based on fundamentals or you know discretionary analysis of one market versus another but you&#39;re using your technology and your tax stack in order to find out Arbitrage opportunities across a number of different commodity Pairs and relationships that you have defined and then you will essentially trade them sometimes hold them for days or weeks and sometimes you know scale up and down uh positions and exposures even on an intraday basis I think is that is that a fair a fair intro before we start uh getting into some of the details uh yes absolutely uh but but I would uh also sort of add to that that uh our entire thinking and philosophy is still driven around the fundamentals of these markets how uh different agents in these markets whether it&#39;s the commodity merchants or the producers or the consumers might be thinking about uh holding or trading of these Commodities um and then we look to just apply a systematic you know decision-making process on how we go around betting on these fundamentals that we&#39;ve looked to U model out um and then trade it in this uh best execution manner through these high frequency trading systems there yes I I remember like you say it&#39;s all around Transportation costs and these type of things which are near and dear to your heart you were essentially brought up in a family that was focused on Transportation costs and getting ships to run from you know one continent to another so this this reflects in I guess your systematic trading decisions today maybe let&#39;s take an example we can start with something that let&#39;s just say is a an easier example of a location Arbitrage trade where you&#39;d be say arbitraging the price of gold or gold Futures in one location versus uh the price in another location um say comx gold versus um Shanghai gold right that is something that you do uh yes uh that that is uh something that would fit right within our wheelhouse right so shall we shall we run through this like you know how would how does how does such a trade come into existence what are you looking at what&#39;s important there sure so you know that that&#39;s a fairly simplistic uh you know trade and example of there um if you really look at uh you know the quality of gold that trades on on these different exchanges first thing to think of is okay is the gold actually fungible right is the same grade of gold right is it 99.995 gold or 999 gold uh and and can that actually be picked up from one location and delivered to the other um so if you&#39;re looking at say a comx gold or an lbma gold and and looking to sort of sell it into Shanghai uh questions that will come up is that okay what is the cost of transporting gold from one of these markets uh if I have say a gold in in a vault in in London or or in New York and I want to actually ship it to Shanghai uh what&#39;s that endtoend cost going to look like uh gold goes by effort uh so so you got to figure out the cost of actually moving it uh over there um you got to price the gold in Shanghai in appropriate uh currency adjusted terms right because the local gold there trades in R&amp;B um you know you have price it appropriately um in USD uh taking into account when you would actually be converting your USD to R&amp;B um or or when you would receive R&amp;B for delivering your gold uh into China um and and then see if given the pricing differentials that are trading across these two markets if net of this endtoend Logistics cost is there an excess spread available or not um and basis that you can say okay if let&#39;s say Shanghai gold is trading at a premium net of all of the endtoend logistics cost there is a genuine physical Arbitrage that&#39;s possible that a gold importer in China could take advantage of uh and is very likely going to take advantage of by actually going and physically doing that particular OB and that&#39;s really what we&#39;re going to look to bet on right so we&#39;re going to go short uh on Shanghai we&#39;re going to go long uh the global gold market whether it&#39;s London or New York uh that we&#39;re pricing against and look at uh what that pricing differential is effectively betting that as the physical gold Traders move the inventory from one of these markets into Shanghai that&#39;s going to you know increase the supply in Shanghai it&#39;s going to reduce the supply offshore and that&#39;s going to get these Market gets back into an equilibrium causing convergence of this spread uh to eventually play out um so the way we really think about this from a first principes philosophy is that what is the genuine physical Arbitrage that a commodity Merchant involved in this commodity would be able to take advantage of and um that&#39;s really what we&#39;re going to bet on right and and we&#39;re only expressing our views uh through through the paper markets or the derivative markets uh but the underlying thinking is what is a physical player going to do given this particular scenario of relative pricing across these two markets so you will take positions in the Futures markets in this example you wouldn&#39;t be seeing the trade to its end or see it through on the physical side right I mean like in your example the uh shanhai based physical gold dealer may actually be taking advantage of the Arbitrage opportunity here by engaging in a physical Arbitrage trade right actually ordering the gold from New York or London having it shipped paying for the freight having it have it arrive in in in in you know Shanghai where the business the local business needs it and then essentially they were able to Source it for a cheaper price but but you don&#39;t you don&#39;t go all through all of that trouble you really you take the position in the Futures markets and you wait for that spread to close and narrow and come back into equilibrium or fair pricing that that&#39;s correct so we are not looking to actually hold the physical gold or actually ship the physical gold uh you know given our uh physical business or commodity merchant business as part of the family if you know we really wanted to do that uh we could probably get it done through that business uh but that&#39;s not the intention through through our investment programs uh to do any of that we&#39;ve never had to do that uh in our history um but as we are sort of relying on the commodity Merchants to actually do that trade and get that market in equilibrium we are very sensitive to events that might uh disrupt that particular flow or that trade flow of that commodity right so the ARB only works uh or that spread only converges if one physical Traders can actually physically move that material and and you know take advantage of that excess return um and there and that there are enough of those physical players such that enough inventory can move over uh to address the excess demand that is there say in the Shanghai market uh in in this example um so we are very cognizant about um specific events that might be taking place uh that that might lead to uh some distortions in those trade so when we go one level down with that trade I mean gold has a very stable forward or Futures C it&#39;s essentially a funding trade it doesn&#39;t have the say backwardation in contango Dynamics or seasonal Dynamics which some other Commodities say the agricultural Commodities have but in order to get that you know in order for you to get interest in the trade I mean do you actually keep track every day or you know periodically of what the cost of air freight insured air rate of gold from London to Shanghai or from New York to London or from New York to Shanghai actually is and what the insurance Premia are is that kind of like do you have your Market intelligence and your feelers out to get updated prices on that because sounds to me that without that information you can&#39;t really know whether the trade is attractive or not correct uh so with with gold you know there there are two important aspects of here so um absolutely we need to know and do actively track on a daily basis uh what that uh insurance premiums are what the a rate is uh for transporting the gold across each of these routes that the care about um and we sort of trying to price what the cheapest deliver path uh for the gold is going to be um and that sort of what we&#39;re going to look to Define as as our Fair values um but as you said right because uh gold trades a lot more like a currency than say a pure commodity um and and very different from say an agricultural commodity uh the spread that we&#39;re looking to trade or or you know the volatility of that spread is quite muted um you know you you&#39;re not going to get most of the time uh extremely large deviations uh that you can take advantage of right um you&#39;re you&#39;re really going to play for some bips um when when you&#39;re looking to take advantage of uh these spread movements across that fair value um so here is where sort of our highfrequency trading systems come into place because if you don&#39;t have a really good execution systems that can take advantage of a few bips deviations uh in these spreads uh in something like gold for particular it&#39;s not a market uh that you can actually participate in for most of the time right at times in stressed environments uh that spread can widen out and widen out meaningfully uh where you can participate in that spread without having high frequency systems in place but uh let&#39;s call it 95% of the time um you would actually not be able to put any exposure on uh because your sure slippage and Market impact of just entering and exiting the positions uh would eat up any expected return that you would have uh from Trading that particular spread or trading the deviations of that spread uh from your arrived at fair value um so your ability to then get a really tight estimate on that fair value and then having the right execution systems that allows you to trade uh you know small deviations but frequent deviations from that fair value is what will allow us to actively participate in that trade uh and put on meaningful risk where we&#39;re not just waiting for that uh two or three sigma event to occur uh before we can put risk on uh on a trade like that right shows why your hft setup is so important and actually about three sigma event I want to get to that in a second there&#39;s something I have in the back of my head that I want to bring up but before we go there there&#39;s also I guess a component that with respect to the specific trait we&#39;re talking about you need to take into account is the if you&#39;re trading in Shanghai and you&#39;re trading in say on the comx or in London you presumably don&#39;t have any margin netting benefit there right because you&#39;re facing two different Clearing Houses uh one in China say the other one in in New York um I&#39;m not sure what your PB setup type of is but you probably deposit margin in these two different venues independently without any netting effect and there is always with brokers um unless you s self- clear I&#39;m not sure what your setup is there&#39;s always a funding spread that you pay on that margin which you also have to take into account here right that&#39;s correct so you know because we&#39;re trading across uh different exchanges um we are funding margin on each side uh so our typical margin to equity that we run tends to be a lot higher than um say a lot of other ctas or other spread Traders uh that that might be there um so you really got to pay attention to you know your cash management and ensure you have sufficient liquidity uh given that you are running a higher margin to equity uh we do work very closely with our clearers to you know minimize the impact of funding costs uh on the margins that that we&#39;re placing and uh particularly now as as rates have risen um the team spent a lot of effort uh ensuring that uh we can get not entirely up to risk free on on all cash that&#39;s sitting with us or on the entire Equity but very reasonable spread uh to cash to risk-free on uh the entire Equity that&#39;s sitting with us so the net say funding cost as such is is not as uh intense um but you do also have to think about the funding cost that the physical Trader is going to incur right so now physical Trad uh is moving that go physically from say New York or London earlier when rates were zero they could move it um with uh a lot smaller margin because their funding costs were so low but as that funding cost Rises they they also have to think about U the margin that they are baking into their trade um and that has to reflect uh in our models as well so in the back of my head because you mentioned that five Sigma or whatever my event during Co times and earlier you said you know your trade kind of also depends on whether the physical world is actually able to move the commodity from A to B and affect the Arbitrage but during covid you know some ships stopped sailing right and and and the flows kind of didn&#39;t work anymore which is and I don&#39;t remember the specifics but there was this moment in time where people were very focused on arbitraging or you know possibly arbitraging gold between London and New York remember what I&#39;m talking about there apparently there was a big disconnect in prices and you could ship it from or fly it from uh London to New York I think this was the direction if I&#39;m not mistaken but you couldn&#39;t really get it done because you couldn&#39;t move it or it was difficult to move was was that the trade exactly exactly um so during uh Co when covid hit um you know all the planes were grounded right if if you recall uh you know countries didn&#39;t want people coming in from other countries in the world uh so all the planes were grounded uh most gold in the world actually gets shipped on U normal sort of Passenger airplanes in the cargo holes of Passenger airplanes uh it&#39;s not that it&#39;s going in some dedicated Air Freight it doesn&#39;t go by ship because it&#39;s too expensive it takes too long uh gold being high value product it it really just flies in a normal sort of passenger planes and as that uh gold sort of or or as as those planes sort of went offline uh you got to a point where you actually couldn&#39;t close the ARB right so as New York started moving into a premium uh you couldn&#39;t get gold from London uh to New York um and close the ARB and and you know given the uh spec differences between those two goals the actual ARB is that it it actually goes from London to a Swiss refiner uh who who then you know shapes it into a form that&#39;s acceptable on the Comax and then it gets shipped out uh or flown to New York for delivery uh but as those planes were not uh flying the arm sort of broke down uh and and that led to you know a large dislocation in that particular spread at that point and really widened out um we did not get caught up in that uh fortunately because um you know again because we take this truly fundamental view as to what&#39;s driving these markets um we were able to say okay that look uh planes are no longer flying uh this ARB no longer makes sense because you can&#39;t physically close the ARB um so we were able to from a risk perspective override our models to say okay do not participate in this ARB right now so we got saved when that particular ARB sort of extended out um and only when we started seeing you know uh air traffic pick up again did we allow the models to turn back on and and actually you know start taking risk on on these trades again and we could benefit uh as those spreads converged so it is very critical to understand what is going on in the physical markets because if you&#39;re taking a purely itical approach to this and you know trying to trade some reversion to some rolling mean um you can have these sort of tail events which are you know driven by the underlying sort of physical economics that make that trade no longer useful for a particular point in time that&#39;s right um you know we see this over and over again and you know a couple of weeks ago I had another firm on and we were speaking about you know grain Arbitrage trade between South Africa and and the US and Europe and uh again during covid these spreads completely disconnected and by the way they&#39;re also like you they&#39;re looking at the markets really figuring out what&#39;s going on they&#39;re not just using a say Z score or like a rolling deviation from the mean in order to figure out whether whether a trait makes sense or not but still you can easily get caught in these things and uh this can be extremely painful [Music] may maybe we we leave gold aside for now we use this as a relatively simple example before we maybe speak about one or two others which which I thought uh are really interesting how many markets are you actually looking at we just mentioned Shanghai gold so there&#39;s already a Chinese market there I know that you&#39;re trading um the majority if not all of the onshore China Chinese Futures markets but maybe give us a background on like you know how many line items do you have in the portfolio how many spread relationships uh do you consider and all that sure so today in in the program we trade uh 25 unique relationships uh in in the program um that sort of translates into around you know 40 to 45 line items uh that that we might be trading um if I&#39;m say Trading old across you know four different markets uh that&#39;s one relationship for us um we run a fairly Diversified program uh across the different commodity sectors so it&#39;s pretty much across precious metals base Metals agricultural Commodities as well as energy um so we do want to run a diversified exposure to these sort of relationships um that that we want to be betting on so part of you know what we try and do from an operations perspective is actually try and get Market access uh to as many markets uh that that we can get where we have liquid commodity markets trading um so recently you know we went live on trading on our Q license in China uh so we can now access China onshore Futures as a qualified foreign investor um and trade it like any other Global Futures Market um with it&#39;s pretty complex operational setup uh timec consuming setup to get in place but we think that that gives us uh a meaningful Edge um in terms of just having you know maximum Market access and allows us to diversify the program quite meaningfully got it um you just mentioned copper I presume correct me if I&#39;m wrong that like a copper ARP trade between say comix copper and and N LM copper kind of like works in the same way that we&#39;ve just uh chatted about the gold trade whereas like you&#39;re factoring in transportation cost maybe copper now actually sails on the ship and doesn&#39;t fly through the air but is it fair to say that it would kind of like be the same rationale behind it or the same driver that you&#39;re using uh for the gold trade right so as As you move on to something like copper um that that&#39;s where these trades actually get a lot more interesting right because complexity actually goes up more exponentially when you&#39;re looking at Copper you can look at Shanghai copper lme copper comx copper and and and we can trade a combination of all of these uh against each other um now when you&#39;re thinking about the transportation costs uh you&#39;re really looking at uh every possible Warehouse to every possible other Warehouse in in an opposite Market um you know so the lme for example has Global warehouses um not only in London right it&#39;s got Warehouse es in Rotterdam in Malaysia Singapore in the US China has its warehouses in Shanghai for Shanghai copper um so now when you&#39;re actually looking at these Transportation costs it&#39;s no longer you know one or two locations uh that you&#39;re trying to price or one or two routes that you&#39;re trying to price um you actually have to price this from every single possible Warehouse uh say of the lme uh to the other Market that you&#39;re looking at right so whether it&#39;s any possible comx Warehouse which again has multiple warehouses across the US um or to say Shanghai set of warehouses uh for Shanghai copper yeah so how do you get about you know obtaining these Transportation costs is there like a A specialized broker Market out there that you can kind of like phone up and say hey what would it cost me uh to deliver from you know one of the lme warehouses say the Malaysia Warehouse of the lme to to Shanghai is is there actually can you just call somebody or email somebody and they come back with okay this is what it costs today on so so that data is actually really hard uh to come by uh you can&#39;t really go out and say subscrib to that level of granular data out there you know the data providers on shipping data for example or shipping cost data um give you very coarse data right you can get it from one continent to the other but if I want from specific Warehouse to another or I want Inland Trucking costs uh you you really can&#39;t go around getting that data by simply subscribing to it um for this data on our end we lean very heavily um on our commodity merchant business uh that that we have which is the family business uh you know that business uh due to its size and scale has you know contracts with all the major Shipping Lines uh the truckers warehouses insurance providers so we can actually get from them every day for every single route uh that we are interested in uh the cost uh end to endend of what it takes to move a commodity uh from one of those warehouses to another Warehouse uh that that we&#39;re interested in uh so that becomes uh this really key proprietary data set for us uh that we can use to define Our Fair values um have a really tight estimate um on what that at beyond what level physical ARB uh Traders will actually kick in um and use that to then trade systematically any deviations from that fair value right so that is a huge Edge right you have that kind of like underpinning that background that connection to the to the physical worlds then you combine that with your with the alphas that you have which you know are are are good as as well on top of that you have the hft setup which allows you to very efficiently get into these Arbitrage trades even for a few basis points where other Market participants essentially need to stay on the sidelines because they don&#39;t have that that trading efficiency that you can bring to the table here exactly and and it is about you know the integration across uh each of these areas when put together um we we think you know you sort of get the best result when it comes to trying to trade uh these particular markets or these particular spread opportunities uh because we have a tight estimate around that fair value uh you can then think of trading small deviations from that fair value right because if your fair value itself had a very large error term uh automatically you would have to wait for a large deviation from that uh before you can even think about participating because you&#39;re just not sure uh as to what that end to-end Transportation cost might look like so so now because we have a tight estimate of fair value and then we have the high frequency systems in place we can configure our portfolio construction to say okay um I can look to rebalance you know on a realtime tick by tick basis if there is sufficient movement in the spread um where my view changes even by a few percentage points uh to go in and trade um a marginal change in my exposure where I can either size up or size down my exposure to that spread uh because we can have certainty that yes um this fair value is is is highly accurate it&#39;s it&#39;s actually executable and now I know that I have hft systems in place uh that was going to limit the amount of Market impact and slippage that I&#39;m going to face when I go in and trade uh into these spread markets U you know number of legs that you are looking to trade at one go in one shot uh you know could be um you know anywhere from two to five legs uh depending on the complexity of the trade uh and the spread that you&#39;re looking to capture so the amount of slippage and Market impact that you&#39;ll face uh can be a very significant percentage of the pnl that you then give up um if you&#39;re trying to trade small deviations uh so it&#39;s really the combination of it are all put together and that to trading a diversified set of these opportunities across all the major sectors um is is we think a really Val a good value proposition great that you mentioned the you know the multiple legs that you may trade um during our prep call you mentioned that that those trades are actually the ones I think you mentioned that you&#39;re um I want to say favoring maybe is the wrong word but they they play a large role in your portfolio essentially a sometimes like a sub substitution Arbitrage trade but that trade then includes a location Arbitrage as well right so one example would be for instance New York Coco versus uh versus London coco or even more complex who could go okay we&#39;re trading um New York heating oil arbitraging that against uh London gas oil and you know some kind of like cracks spread type of way it goes into Tokyo crude that is stuff that you do right so so that that is all things that we are happy to do um again the underlying principles uh that we&#39;re looking to bet on is that is there a strong fundamental economic rationale as to why these spreads if they widen out uh should converge back to some sense of what that fair value is look like right so even when we&#39;re saying we&#39;re happy to trade substitution um Arbitrage over here where we&#39;re okay with slightly different grades uh so like London cooko versus New York Coco um we like those opportunities more so when there is a geographic Transportation cost element into it uh because we think we can bring some Edge to the table when we&#39;re trading that and then more importantly you know what we&#39;re looking at saying is that okay are these genuine substitutes for one another right so can a consumer who&#39;s consuming one grade um quickly uh switch to consuming another grade uh if uh the primary grate that they&#39;re consuming gets too expensive you know so for example something that we would not look to trade um would be a Brent versus WTI so even though they&#39;re highly correlated U sort of grades of trud um it&#39;s it&#39;s really hard for a Refinery to suddenly start processing Brent uh if they&#39;ve been set up to process WTI right so so that spread between uh TI and Brent uh can keep widening and narrowing uh but it&#39;s not necessarily going to trigger um a genuine sort of substitution effect um in the physical markets uh because the cost of you know reconfiguring the refiner refinery to process the other grade is is too expensive um so we would stay away from those kind of Trades um and and really sort of focus on only those set of relationships uh that are going to be very tightly configured good and then similarly on you know cracks and Crush spreads is there actual economic flow that&#39;s going in from that one market into the others uh where you&#39;re going in from you know your input Commodities to those output Commodities or are those markets genuinely just distinct from each other and having their own sort of Supply demand Dynamics with no way of actually bridging uh the flows between them because if you don&#39;t have true trade flows uh bridging these markets then these spreads can actually dislocate and remain dislocated um so really diving into the fundamentals of these markets as a starting point to understand where the consumers are where the producers are and um what are the linkages that you have between these markets is really critical before we even say here&#39;s a relationship uh you know that&#39;s part of the universe uh that we&#39;re even good to go and research uh any further one market that I&#39;d like to bring up another just um coming to mind as we speak is is that gas because you know you have a molecule of natural gas used to be fairly constrained around where that gas is produced and then deliver to Henry Hub ttf but now that market has changed right LG is growing a gas molecule can now I don&#39;t want to say relatively easily but it it definitely can travel on ship on a specialized you know lmg tanker uh from one location to another and essentially find a home where the price is highest right the the there&#39;s a global market for for lmg um have you become more active in in this market given that it has in a way structurally changed to become more Global or is it still a market that you&#39;re staying away from kind of like calling them like you would with WTI and Brands like well they&#39;re really distinct you know Henry Hub is one thing and ttf is really another and we&#39;re not looking at at at any relationship there right so so you know we we won&#39;t comment on um you know our specific involvement in in any of these particular gas markets uh but I think uh to your larger Point um I totally agree that these markets uh which historically have been actually quite distinct markets uh are now actually getting integrated AS Global um because um as um LG capacity uh ramps up both in terms of um you know liquefying and reg gasifying on both ends um as LG shipping capacity ramps up um you are effectively moving to a world where you are going to have sort of a large single gas market um where gas is going to go effectively to the highest bit barring any you know import export restrictions that uh you know countries might choose to impose um so uh that becomes a market over time that historically um we would stay away from and and more and more um as these capacities come online uh they become integrated and a true sort of location ARB uh kicks in over there um we&#39;re not all the way there uh so we&#39;re sort of on that Spectrum right right now how we specifically get involved today in that market um is is something um you know I I would not be able to comment on but uh I think this is an important aspect that uh you know players in these markets uh are pretty much aware of now and and will be a significant driver for how gas is traded going forward uh you know that&#39;s no longer say a local Henry Hub Market with you know various basis trades all locally and geographically only in the US how export capacity is and how exports are going out uh is going to be as key a driver to pricing even for him up than any of the other [Music] markets moving away from specific trade examples and markets um when you put it all together in a portfolio context how do you think about that you know is there kind of like a rule that says okay I need to have at least a certain number of spreads on any given point in time in order to have a certain level of diversification or would you be able to also run a very concentrated book because say the only thing that happens is actually the gold market and you know all the other markets aren&#39;t interested uh interesting or nothing is really moving enough for you to get interested in it how do you go about putting all of these I think you mentioned 25 uh unique relationships that you&#39;re monitoring how how you going about pulling all of that together sure so when we think of uh each of these uh spread relationships uh that that the system is trading the way we like to run it is is Let each relationship sort of run completely independent of the other and if say there are a host of spreads that are not on um we&#39;re not going to take the risk that&#39;s allocated to them and and load them up on spreads where um which are on on at that or have attractive opportunities uh at that point the nature of this game is that you&#39;re anyways taking time wearing risk on individual spreads in the portfolio if you are going to you know actively reallocate risk uh and load up on other interesting opportunities just because something start on you&#39;re sort of going to be doubling down uh on that risk timing that you&#39;re anyways doing on these spreads uh so we like to run them independently um we like to you know size the overall exposures or the max risks that spreads can go up to such that an individual spread uh can give us a certain level of uh volatility contribution to the portfolio over time and we will go in sort of statically allocate how much risk we want then over the long term from Individual spreads taking into account uh what the covariance across the spreads are taking into account you know the tail risks that uh similar spreads might be exposed to whether it&#39;s you know sector risk or producer country risk or consumer country risk uh where you want to diversify those risks uh as much as possible but then once we do that static risk allocation we don&#39;t go and look to sort of uh shift risk from one to the other uh just because a particular opportunity is looking attractive uh so we do try and Target a constant vola on the portfolio over time but because we&#39;re taking time varing risk what it sort of means is that at any point in time we might be running well below our uh Target level of risk or our constant VA Target uh and at other times you&#39;ll be running higher than that ball Target uh it is a function of how many opportunities are attractive and to what extent uh at any point in time um but that said again because we trade in this sort of Continuum um where we are putting you know small amounts of exposures on even as spread deviate uh minimally uh it sort of means that we tend to have a lot of positions on on average right so it&#39;s it&#39;s not going to be the case that portfolio is going to only hold you know two relationships out of the 25 at a point in time um we&#39;ll typically have some positions on in around 13 or 14 of these uh at any point in time uh the size of those positions could obviously vary depending on the attract of the opportunity right do you have maybe a final question on that on on risk management is there like a a point also where there&#39;s like a stop loss or you&#39;d say this is enough the spread has moved uh too much against us it has widened even more to a point where you say like okay we&#39;re calling it quits we&#39;re leaving it would you really if you have determined an Arbitrage opportunity that you think and you know will play out you would then essentially stick to that trade and uh see through to its end right so you know when we&#39;ve spoken of the Arbitrage opportunities for starters right we&#39;ve spoken primarily of the deviation from uh the fair value or the transportation cost uh the models that we run are actually multifactor models where we say that look this physical AR is the primary call it value Factor but then we do want to explicitly and quantitatively account for you know Supply demand relative inventory levels Market sentiment factors uh that can help sort of determine how quickly uh this ARB might come back or whether it&#39;s going to be stretched for a longer periods of time uh but let&#39;s say even in this multiactor approach uh if you get to a point where the spreads are continuing to expand against you um we do run automated draw down controls where after a point we gradually start taking risk down and at further sort of predefined points uh we would automatically be 100% out of the spread uh we think it&#39;s really important to build in this automated sort of draw down controls uh when you&#39;re trading these spreads uh because like everything in finance is fat tailed um and and negatively skewed spread Trading particular in any form U that you construct it uh is going to be even more negatively skewed so you got to build for uh negative tale events um that are going to happen uh every now and again um you know it could have been because there&#39;s a policy change by a government suddenly duties or taxes have been changed Imports or exports have been restricted from a certain country that&#39;s an important player uh for that particular commodity and you can get taale events in these spreads as a result of that so it&#39;s really important that you are in a position to very quickly and automatically uh reduce the losses that you face in those sort of event scenarios and hopefully because you&#39;re running a diversified program over here the impact on that of that event is fairly muted uh on the portfolio as a whole speaking about the skew and you know maybe uh in prepar of closing this conversation down which by the way I think is is absolutely fantastic but on spreads I mean there&#39;s more of a tail risk you know like you said something happens uh policy change import duties um you know weather risk materializing covid all these type of things but I mean is it fair to say that it&#39;s it&#39;s really negatively skewed I mean it it does have the tail exposure in both ends right it it simply is I would say more tail exposed a more lepto distribution whether the tail is is negative or positive remains to be seen it can go go both ways or would you say it&#39;s really you know negative negatively tailed exposure that you have there it is going to be sort of negatively tailed because uh you know principally you&#39;re still trading reversion over here right so um if you are sort of Crossing fair value you&#39;re anyways U you know exiting out of your positions right so um how highly unlikely unless there is a huge gap event uh in in your favor um highly unlikely you will benefit from a tail move uh on the ab absolutely no you&#39;re you&#39;re absolutely right you are more the mean reverting fair value reversion type of Trader whereas you know some other spread Traders they may actually look to say you know trade momentum in these spreads and they may have a different tail experience than what you&#39;re describing but you&#39;re absolutely correct kind of like with any mean reversion strategy right right you&#39;re uh you&#39;re getting in at the point where you think a a spread is stretched and um that in by itself because you want to go back to the mean but if it doesn&#39;t go back to the mean you really only have the tail on the other side that can sting you exactly exactly Anan fantastic is there anything that you&#39;d like to bring up anything that you think we should speak about but didn&#39;t no thank you morit I think we you know covered all the key facets of of how we think about the world uh you know I think it&#39;s uh the key takeaway if there is one is that um we really think about this world as physical commodity Traders first and and how they might be reacting to these markets um and then look to just systematically trade around it and that&#39;s held Us in really good stead uh over the years as we think about uh you know taking this program further fantastic so thank you a million for doing this I know it&#39;s been a long time in the making we wanted to get you on for a long time we finally made it happen and listeners please make sure you follow Anand and Greenland and as ever should you have any questions be that to me or to Anand please email us at info toop TR on black where we&#39;ll pick it up and absolutely respond so thank you big time for listening it was really great we&#39;ll soon be back with another episode of open interest so please stay tuned thanks for listening to top Traders unplugged if you feel you learned something of value from today&#39;s episode the best way to stay updated is to go on over to iTunes and subscribe to the show so that you&#39;ll be sure to get all the new episodes as they&#39;re released we have some amazing guests lined up for you and to ensure our show continues to grow please leave us an honest rating and review on iTunes it only takes a minute and it&#39;s the best way to show us you 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Transcript for:Commodity Arbitrage and Systematic Trading with Anan Jaa

Transcript for:
Commodity Arbitrage and Systematic Trading with Anan Jaa