hey everybody Welcome to the wonderful world of Remnant radio we've got Jackie pullinger with us and we're going to be discussing her life her Ministry it's going to be an exciting program you guys stay tuned you are watching The Remnant radio a crowdfunded show where we interview pastors teachers historians and theologians from different churches and denominations my name is Joshua Lewis and this is my co-host Michael rre together we want to help you break outside of your theological Echo Chambers if you're interested in learning about history theology or the gifts of the Spirit this is the show for you guys thank you so much for tuning into this program today it's a little bit late for many of you so I appreciate you guys staying up and jumping into the Live program since we have Jackie with us if you have questions drop them into the live comment section if we we see a few of them that are like man those are exceptional we're going to we're going to toss them and L them over to Jackie to see what her thoughts are on those uh but without further Ado uh if you haven't subscribed to Remnant radio it's really trending right now we just hit 100,000 subscribers you should jump on that bandwagon I'm not a big fan of jumping on the bandwagon but this one I am so go ahead and hit the like button if like this video subscribe to the channel if you don't like the video Hit dislike twice uh and we will uh continue cranking out this content here if you want to support us there's links in the description the top link is for PayPal uh that's a onetime gift of any amount and the link right under underneath it is patreon if you give as low as five bucks a month you'll get access to extra content but if you're out there and you're like I can't afford five bucks a month that's cool send me an email Josh theer Remnant radio.com and I will send that to you for free without further Ado this is the clan Michael we're really excited about this episode episode uh Jackie I want to introduce you in just once in in just one moment but but I really want Michael to to blow a lot of positive smoke before we dive into it Michael uh how excited are you that we're interviewing Jackie P I am flipping excited okay so Jackie pullinger She Wrote This Book right here chasing the dragon you guys should read it uh it's it's an amazing book and uh an amazing story of just the way God works and uh I I don't want to give away the story we're going to kind of unpack a little bit of here today but what an a meet uh Jack who um was an inspiration to my mentor Jack deer and then now Sam storms as I'm in OKC now uh Sam talks about you a lot Jackie and um and just an inspiration to so many people and I watched you speak uh gosh it was at an ihob thing so I know you're associated with Mike Bickle a little bit and um but Jackie wow just the uh your your story and the slowboat to China and all that we're gonna unpack a lot of it but uh it's a real honor uh to have you on the show so uh thank you so much and guys we actually had to trick Jackie uh to get her to come on camera at Jackie it was an accident but uh um really was there's a little confusion about Remnant radio being a video podcast so Josh you're the one who named this thing why' you call it I'll possibility for it this time Michael I really will uh it was bad branding nobody thought we were going to take off on YouTube we thought we were going to be a podcast so radio made sense at the time so there you go I got no good answers but hey that's how we got Jackie pullinger so here she is I suppose Jackie uh are you there Josh can you put the camera over okay I'm here yeah okay well I know I can see me oh dear okay so Jackie you are in uh you are in Hong Kong at the moment and so that's why it's 9:00 p.m. our time and it's morning for you well um Jackie uh maybe you could just start out take us to um just beginning of your life how you got saved and saved and called into missions just kind of I know that's maybe two different stories but just take us to your early life we want to do a little biography here yeah my very early life was um when I was uh about 5 and uh a missionary came to our Sunday school um and I mean she was a real missionary she you know she had a a a bun the whole bit and uh she she pointed her finger at each one of us we were sitting on baby chairs and she said and could God want you on the mission field so I remember thinking um well the answer to the question can cannot be no I'm sure God wants everyone on the mission field I had no idea what a mission field was um but in my imagination it was like a football pitch so um after that I I told my friends I'm going to be a missionary and that did not go down well um because uh they used it against me you know so one of my little friends mother said when I was naughty and I thought you were going to be a missionary so I learned to shut up about God and Mission but of course I didn't like him that much uh in those days uh very much later um when I was a music student um I more or less wasted my time at uh at college and avoided the Christian union uh as much as I could because um they were all organists and I really like the brass section so um that didn't help um but when I met some old school friends um on a train uh they looked at me and I I was coming back from an awful party um because I went to lot a lot of awful parties and uh they looked at one another and said oh she really needs Jesus and mercifully didn't say that to me um just said oh we have um we have coffee parties uh every Wednesday and we talk about uh God and other things and there are some really nice men so I thought oh well that's good because I I did want to meet some nice men so um I went I met a very really nice one that's how I met Jesus uh the Son of God it was the man that you met that's that's right they were the first people who said they believed in Jesus who looked as if they liked him um so that was the first time I actually began to listen um to what they were saying and and um so I heard the speaker at this coffee party saying U I'm the way the life and the truth and I oh my goodness Jesus said it I thought I thought it was the Baptist um because because I used to run past a a a a Baptist um Church which which had this uh on a board outside and I'd never really um computed that it was actually Jesus that said it so um I I then had to decide if I was going to believe um that he was the only way or not and came to the unhappy conclusion that he was um and and it was a very mean conversion um I said dear dear Lord I do not like like this very much I'd much rather be wide than narrow and um but I'm afraid I'm going to have to accept that you are the only way um and that was the the mean the the mean bit um but of course he wasn't mean and after that I understood that uh it was the widest invitation in the world because all can come um and that's how that that's how I met met the Lord um and then the the the childhood missionary thing came back okay so you maybe s CS Lewis as the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England as he described it yeah okay um so Jackie what happened after the the yeah after the conversion story um you know most of us don't get converted and then go boom let's go to China and be a mission AR what was your what was the was there a transition process was it just like had your face set like how did you go from point A to point B uh in in in about one minute because um I was I was sitting with some friends and they were we were doing a Bible study and they were thanking the lord they had eternal life and I thought oh oh I just filled in the blanks and that booklet and so it it was John 3:16 so I have eternal life um and that's really good and I was happy for about uh 30 seconds uh and then I thought oh well that means some people don't uh and uh I'm not sure if I can enjoy eternal life if there are some people that don't so um my friends went on to cook risoto and and um I I looked at them and I thought how how can you how can you eat risotto when there are people who are perishing so I went out U and found a a woman sleeping on a bench um and that was my response if this is true um that I have eternal life I I want everyone to have that opportunity to know God's love praise God in in instead of eating risato um so um then then then the childhood uh missionary thing came back and I I I started praying and I said said to the Lord you know I only have one life um and I would not like to be ashamed at the end of it uh I would like to answer well so uh uh what shall I do because I have a whole life um and every time I prayed uh through scripture or uh later on there were dreams and visions and and so on This was um this was in 1960 uh the end of 65 um and uh dreams and visions and every time the Lord said go so I said um yes I understand but um would you please tell me where and that was where the uh Journey began okay now you you received some advice around then because it uh I think you applied to several missionary agencies societies and your application wasn't being received and then you you talked to to one man I'm trying to remember his name I know you remember his name um but uh that that's right so uh he gave you some advice that was really life-changing for you uh could you share that with us well after the dream um and I'd been to a meeting where uh someone spoke in tongues and there was an interpretation none of that bothered me but the um I was expecting to hear in the meeting go to Africa or go to this place you know um but it wasn't that it was go so I went to the uh he was a a vica which is a an Anglican pastor and I said uh listen um every time I pray the Lord says go but he's not being very helpful about where um he just says go and I'll show you go and I'll lead you um so uh I've got stuck uh saying go and I'm saying where he says go and I'll show you so I said to um Richard Thompson um I think I'll stay in London and help you and he said no no no don't don't don't if the Lord's telling you to go you must go um and and I said but I I can't because I don't know where and he said um why don't you get onto a a ship find the cheapest one you can that's traveling in the most different countries get on the ship and pray to know where to get off and it was like a bell went off in my heart and I thought oh that is such fun I would love that so um I said to him that that sounds wonderful but it surely it's cheating because missionaries have to suffer and I'd love to do that and he said no it's not cheating and tell me the story of Abraham said um he was told to go and he went without knowing where he was going and spent most of his life not getting there so I found the cheapest ship I could um had all my uh vaccinations for countries along the way in case I needed to get off there and that's how I ended up in Hong Kong if someone gave advice like that today to a young multiple teenager there would be a ton of blogs about them about spiritual abuse um yeah how did how did it turn out for you I mean well it I think it would be um it was a word of wisdom and you as you know about words of wisdom you can't use them twice you know um otherwise you'd solve all problems with sword like um like Solomon did so um so you don't think this word was like like applicable like for all people everywhere like you think this was like a right now kind of forj sort of divinely revealed wisdom for the moment First Corinthians 12 the gift of words of wisdom I think that's what you're talking about is that right right so that's why I I reacted with such Joy you know oh that's such fun and he was a very very conservative man you know not to saying things things like that um but it made complete sense to him and complete sense to me so um I if people say oh Jackie got on a boat and prayed to know where to get off why don't you I would say no that was my word you can't have it praise God I love that okay so you arrive in Hong Kong you ultimately minister in the Wald City the descriptions in your book of the wal City I it it was you know what what why don't you just describe for our uh our viewers maybe just put it into words I don't know like what is the wal City why did it exist and what was it like maybe give us some of those images and pictures of just what it's like when you walk in through those Alleyways well first of all it didn't look like a city um it was um it just looked like a big block because um all the all the buildings were uh built to join on the other buildings and so there were just a few gaps in between just three or four feet wide so you had to squeeze in between the building it was like going down a a rabbit hole and and so you squeeze in between the buildings and it was dark because um when I first went there there was no electricity later on um there was some um that people ran a line in from outside and then everybody else tapped off the that that one ran their own lines so above your head there were um there were electric wires later um but when I went in there wasn't electricity and there wasn't water um and this was because it was an illegal place um when Britain and China in the 19th century um made the agreement about Hong Kong um being seeded to Britain um they left out this place it it's a bit like the city of London within London this was the wall City within Caron and they they said we we don't care whether it's British or Chinese we we have our own government so uh they they were excluded from the treaty so uh a few years later Britain said to China this was in the 19th century um after all we'd like to include the the W City take remove the exclusion Clause from the treaty and China said what treaty um feeling cheated about Hong Kong anyway so um so it became a place that was lless and the police couldn't go in um but they officially but they did because I later on I found they were running um a lot of the the businesses or rather making money off them um because there was a whole lot of uh corruption so in Hong Kong dollars there about $100,000 a day was was being paid in in in bribes but go continuing down the the dark Street I didn't know any of this um I just saw a man uh running his fingers uh through through a sewer because the sewers beneath your feet were open um there was only one toilet in the whole wall City at that time um with with no running water um and uh he was running his fingers through to um see if there's anything a coin or anything that had dropped because he was a a drug addict that was my my first site of a drug addict of course I had no idea what what they did he just looked hopeless and was wearing flip-flops and uh continuing down the street I uh later was going to learn that the lady sitting on a box who was probably in her 60s or 70s was looking after girls who were prostitutes um of course now I know they are slaves um they they they would have been sold or tricked into prostitution and so the whole wal city was a place where you could commit crimes there were 32 opium dens um tiny U and slimy um but 32 um and there was a big heroin which was made out of tin um and gambling dens um so people came in to commit crimes or they came in to hide from um the police because they committed crimes outside and it was run by two main Triads that those are uh Chinese uh gangs a bit like Mafia um how how old are you when this is all happening Jackie like you're you're walking through my age I but I I finished College okay okay so you're so you young college age walking through the the slums you know sewage exposed drug addicts present um um opioid addicts M multiple you know uh uh people in this community that are addicted you've got one toilet in a bunch of gangs coming in to do crimes and you're a young young lady by yourself like did you did you join a group of people like how like what were were you terrified going into the situation I mean that's describing this sounds like something in a movie no it it it does look like a movie set I mean I I still dream about it and it's um it always looks like a movie set it's uh it's completely extraordinary um just dark and black and and slippery um but a missionary took me in she had a school in there and uh the second time I went in um I just felt really happy and uh you know you know when when you're in love or or or or when it's your birthday or somebody said you're beautiful you know you get a sort of inside you and that's how I I felt um and I thought oh why am I feeling like this you know it's not my birthday and nobody said I'm beautiful so then I realized um I'm I'm happy because I'm here and I loved it uh so I I wasn't afraid I I began to help in that missionary school and the children that I was teaching um would take me out each time and because I was with the children the gangsters were were pleased with me because of course they they wanted the the children to be at school and be looked after so in a sense the children were were my protection and that was how I got to know the streets um because it's like a maze inside um and then I I because I was teaching in the school um it wasn't free um and they couldn't even afford it would be like for you um about half of one of your dollars a month to go to school and most of most of the people in there couldn't afford that it was just the the uh the first uh few grades of school um nobody went to to to uh pass grade uh six and um uh one of the young boys there who was 14 uh was kicked out of this Christian School and began to sell tickets at um at a pawn theater inside where some of the girls who'd been sold were doing uh some Live Sex Shows and I was so sorry for him um I thought what happens when you're kicked out of a Christian School you know his his father's a drug addict his mother's a prostitute and he's selling tickets in a pawn theater when he's 14 so uh I would like to have a place where someone like him could come and so um that's why I started a youth club in there found and and found a room and began to take the the uh the young kids um for for uh roller skating and swimming and and summer camps and things like that huh so I'm I'm kind of noticing a little bit of a thread in your story of joy is a part of your calling and I want to kind of pry into that a little bit because so the the man gives you a Word of Wisdom hop on a slow booat you end up going to China but you think in your head this is too much fun and it's kind of funny the contrast in your conversion where you're a reluctant convert like oh I don't want that and then you didn't really get too you weren't too excited maybe at first about being a missionary but then as the Lord begins to work on your heart and you hear this word of wisdom for Joy like oh this sounds like too much fun and then you go and you arrive and there are probably lots of happier places in Hong Kong than the wal City I mean the wal City I mean the the darkness of it you talk in your book about just blood in the streets rats that don't even run away because they're just so used to people and it just uh just the darkness of the of the whole thing and you're like it feels like my birthday it feels like someone just told me I'm beautiful the joy that you felt while you were there and so I'm seeing so I guess my question is talk to me about like maybe that tension between doing really hard things and carrying a cross and God actually speaking to you through your joy in so far as it relates to your calling and maybe even apply that to to us and our calling uh so does that does that question make sense yeah but I didn't think of it like that um you know when when people visited Hong Kong later um and said oh they were praying about what God wanted them to do I I thought oh you've seen the wal City would you not like to stay here for the rest of your life I thought it was the most wonderful place I really didn't understand people that didn't want to um be there um but you know it was just my it it it it was just my gift um Grace I guess you you you'd call it from from God that I re really enjoyed what he sent me to do um and so it it didn't feel hard um the of course there would be hard times of course of course of course but um I've always thought that it's easier to do the will of God than not it has to be I love his yoke is easy yeah it has to be easier to do what he's made you for then then not I mean you know if you don't you get swallowed by a whale or something you know be it it it it has it has to be easier easier to chase the dragon and swallow a whale huh or be swallowed by a whale Josh you saying well no I was gonna actually ask you brought it up chasing the dragon uh the title of your book Chasing the Dragon uh you you quote Revelation 12 uh and the dragon there I I assume that Dragon that's going to snatch up the Manchild you know woman 12 you know 12 stars in her hair cloth with the sun Manchild in her belly standing on the the moon and this dragon's going to snatch up this Manchild and it seems like you've connected this also to the chasing of the Dragon which is a cial term can you maybe connect all that to for us and and and actually show us like like the meaning and the title of your book there yeah the there's um there's a phrase in cantones which is Joong um which is literally means chasing the dragon um it's a way of taking heroine so they would get a a matchbox or a toilet roll and put it in their mouth uh and then take some silver foil and put the white powder on it which is heroin um and then uh with a a match uh or a lighter um put it uh under the silver foil until the white powder became like toffee um and then they would inhale the fumes and as as they tilted the the foil downwards um and it would run down and then they would tilt it back and it would run back so that why it's called chasing the dragon um and I've some of our people did um a film show uh uh uh a a musical um a few years ago about chasing the dragon and it was uh they did a wonderful dance um in which um the dragon is called Miss White um B that's a colloquial term for heroin is Miss White and so Miss White and uh is also the dragon and it was um in the dance it was the the visual um interpretation of the seduction she seduces um men who want her and love her and she promises much um but when they get her um she's only only gives them a thrill briefly and then disappoints them and so they are left hating her uh until they want her again so this is really um uh the picture of of Satan um the dragon who's who seduces um us who seduces men with promises um but it disappoints even if the thrill is there briefly uh and so you try again uh to see if it's better next time um so when when I wrote the the book Chasing the Dragon it it it fitted into the Revelation um passage um where it says they overcame uh the ancient serpent um they overcame him by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony and they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death um so it that was um a scripture that dis describes what I found myself in um was overcoming The Works of the enemy which Jesus did on the cross but which he invites us to continue um by doing what he did um by loving people uh by not loving your own life so much as to shrink from death and from um sharing testimony so um that's what I find myself in the middle of doing uh I never would have thought of drug addicts I mean when I left England people weren't even talking about drug addicts um and I would never choose it today I wouldn't advise anybody but it was what I found myself in the middle of of uh because after a few years of the youth club a whole lot of good people left um they they found out that um I didn't have any money and no church was backing me um and I I had been teaching a at a school a very good school for a few years as well as being in the wall City so I was in the wall City in the evenings the weekends and school holidays and I supported myself but I had no church behind me and when when people found out that I wasn't a missionary that was going to benefit them uh by getting them into the right school or giving them a baptism certificate which would possibly get you to America um or or or introducing them to something good you know people join churches for those reasons um and they found out I'd got none of th those benefits um I couldn't even get them a burial spot you know um because you have to be a certified Church to get a burial spot um so the the good people peeled off and I was left with all the gangsters and they stayed because they liked me so um that's I found myself in the middle of all of that and I had prayed um dear Lord it would be worth my whole life if you'd use me to save just one um and by the way I don't need to know which one um so I used to have Christian meetings in my youth club and they nobody came in um they all went out to smoke um when I had the Christian bit um and they came back in for the for the darts and the pingpong and everything else but um I I was really happy to be there um and I know there's a verse in in scripture um it's one Corinthians 15:58 that says be steadfast unmovable always abounding in the world work of the Lord because you know that whatever you do is not in vain so it on one hand I was very happy to not see any results um and I I still feel like that on the other hand I read in the scripture that um we would do the things that he had done and even even greater um and I walked into the drug dens um and I saw people who are going to die and I said um I'm impatient um so I was patient about not seeing results I was also impatient to see that the kingdom come because if I didn't they would die within a year so um I I I love the tension between patience and impatience because the opposite of patience is not impatience the the opposite of patience is unbelief so you can be patient and impatient at the same time uh so I began to pray Lord whatever you have that will help me to make you real because PE all these guys here are very impressed by me but they're not changed and I want to see them change because they'll die before they've lived I love that cuz it's for you it wasn't like it is sometimes here in America with charismatics where we're like and Josh and I we're very much believe in the gifts um but sometimes in charismatic churches it can be well uh I want Miracles but it's so that I could just see something cool it's so that uh we can have a miracle Sideshow get more people in the building you know those are the kinds of things you see sometimes I remember driving by a Charis IC church here in America and it it said uh and it says come Thursday night signs and wonders and I'm like it was this tiny little building I'm like I bet it'd be a bigger building if there were really signs anyway maybe that's the skeptic in me but but you're saying I needed Miracles because people were dying now I want to talk about that a little bit because the there was a shift in your ministry when it came to results and it came down to the way you describe it in your book there was a a Christian couple that you met that had a conversation with you about have you received the Holy Spirit and it kind of went back and forth of course I received the Holy Spirit so on um and and this ends up changing your ministry in very powerful ways but I'd love for you to tell us that story uh of interacting with this with this Christian couple kind of what you learn from that and how that just the before and the after could you share that story yeah um they were just an ordinary uh couple not uh not so educated and I I used I was playing a a a a pump uh organ this was before electric pianos in a little chapel it at on the edge of the W City and um and I could see they'd got something um when I had met a a young drug addict in the streets um I I didn't know what to do with him um the the best I could do was write write him a note and say I'll meet you and take you to a clinic um but when I saw this couple I thought no they'd pray for him um and I want whatever it is they've got which I didn't know what to call it so uh at the end of the meeting I I talked with them and I thought they were very rude um because they said uh uh you haven't got the Holy Spirit and I said I have I know um and I of course I knew I was right because uh I I I'd read a little booklet at some time which said have you received the Holy Spirit and I thought strange question and I prayed um and in faith I'd received so of course now I I teach on it now now I know they AR answer but in those days um of course I was right I did have the Holy Spirit because I was born of the spirit um but I wanted what they had because I want so I argued uh with them until I said to the Lord dear God I'm so sorry I'm going to quit arguing um I'm it it doesn't matter if um if I've if I've got the Holy Spirit and they say I haven't I want whatever you have from your spirit that will help me to make you real um so I'll decide what to call it later and um so not sure if I've really decided but anyway um I went I went to their house uh and uh they were really uh way over the top Pentecostals um I mean they prayed they they said Grace in tongues you know um and I was sitting on their sofa which was a black plastic sofa and they put their hands on on my head and he and they said and now you speak um and I sat there just perspiring and the the the the plas sofa was getting damp because they it no air conditioning and uh I thought well this is awful um they they're just saying open your mouth and speak and and I was saying I'm not going to open my mouth if God's going to give me this gift of tongues I had no objection to the gift by the way because i' seen it in the scripture but uh if God's going to give it it to me God's going to give it to me I'm not going to do it um which of course is foolish um what if you keep your mouth shut so finally I opened my mouth to say dear Lord please help me because I want to go home and um and I and he gave me a a a beautiful language but my response was um embarrassment um actually I'm still embarrassed by the gift and uh I I said Thank you Lord for this um but I really do want to go home and I'm thank you so much that it was this couple because I couldn't have done it with the British people so uh so I tried to go home as as quickly as possible and they they said as I went out of the door by the way there are other gifts um and I said oh yes thank you very much um cuz I had read 1 Corinthians 12 um so I went home and I I didn't see them again and I tried praying in tongues and honestly it didn't feel like anything um it wasn't doing anything for me and my life didn't change and um so and the other gifts didn't appear I didn't know how you knew about healing or discernment you know so didn't know and then a year later I met some Americans who um asked me uh Jackie do you do you pray in tongues and I thought oh it's just cuz they're American you know because the Brits aren't going to ask you that so I said no I don't and they said why not and I said well you know all the all the books I read people sort of sat on a mountain top or floated on a cloud or something you know um or felt exuded love you know and I just didn't I just felt embarrassed when I when I prayed in tongues so I haven't gone on doing it and they said to me you are very rude uh you're an Evangelical and you believe in the scripture and the scripture says if you pray in tongues you'll be built up it doesn't say you'll feel built up so do it um so I did and I didn't feel built up built up but I began to pray half an hour a day in tongues and and I was saying dear Lord please use me to to reach people with your love um and to save lives um and after about six weeks um I bumped into people in the street in the wall City and told them about Jesus and they they believed and prayed for sick people and they were healed and I thought oh my Chinese has got bit good um but the interesting thing was I was saying the same things as I had said before um and I I Now understand it's the whole secret of mission um I was now saying them to the people God had got ready um so that's what mission is he gets people's hearts ready he sends you to the people he's prepared and I could have said tomato ketchup um and they would have been saved it was just you know so you can't be you can't be proud it's just that I it was I understood I was in God's plan um and that's what praying in tongues um did it it and I still didn't feel anything when I prayed in tongues but when people's lives changed then I was emotional so you know you're reminding me of this little book that was published by well actually I don't think it's published yet on evangelism by Lex impr press and um they talk they sent me a copy of it last week and uh it's it's got this chapter in there where he says that you know our missions of evangelism sometimes we think that it's like if we don't say it just the right way this person is damned for for eternity he goes but really um our job is much more like a an efficient on a wedding you know that bride and that groom it's important as the efficient to to actually marry them but they have a long story before you showed up there and God has been working on this person for a long time before they ever stand before you and yes that that gospel officiation is Meaningful and important but God's really been the one that's been courting this person up into this moment so I I think that's a beautiful picture but but you mentioned Tung okay so I'm I've heard some stories about you Jackie and Tung I I need to know some of these things because I I'm in the so you don't know my background uh I came through uh Steve Hills Church so when Steve left Brownsville he came and planted uh Heartland in Texas and I grew up in that church as a kid so Steve and Lyn Raven Hill and these guys like they like they they look to you and talk of you as like the this tongues gift like they would they speak of it in a way that you don't speak of it you're like I'm still kind of embarrassed by it so I'm curious there are these stories of you praying over drug addicts in tongues lots of them and them being like miraculously healed can you could you maybe tell us like how you begin to use this gift for this practice and and how regular that actually was and maybe a followup question that you should probably expect um people are going going is that biblical there it is there's the followup question that you would probably expect us to ask okay um well the it happened um you might say sovereignly with the first two uh one had been sent to guard me um after my youth club got bashed up um anyway it's a long story but he came in one day after um he uh I I'd been talking to him about Jesus and he was an opium addict and um he began to pray he began to sing um give me oil in my lamp it was the only song he knew because he he I used to sing it in the Christian meetings that only I went to but he'd been listening outside the door um and then he began to pray in tongues um which I had not told him about and so he prayed for about half an hour and uh then he he was through his opium addiction um and then another one on a summer camp um when when he met Jesus he was also he was a heroin addict and he prayed in tongues and that night had a dream um and in which Jesus came into the Hut on the mountain and put his hands on his head and he had no more pain uh he was was no more withdrawal pains and we baptized him in the sea um so I with those first to I thought well this is very simple all I have to do is walk into drug dens um lay my hands on drug addicts and they'll start speaking in tongues and um that's that um of course I didn't understand addiction um and uh later on I learned that both of of them um didn't have homes one of them actually lived in the Opium Den and although he'd come off drugs miraculously um he he needed a a place to live he needed to grow up in Christ I thought he would be ready to go out to work the next day but of course not um so I I needed to learn about addiction so um it it it's a long long story but um through the American couple um I had learned that everybody can receive the gift of tongues um a lot of people in fact most evangelicals I've ever met have prayed at some time dear Lord if you want me to speak in tongues give it to me and nothing happens um and it's a bit like me waiting for it to happen um but I had learned through the American couple that uh the there is a way to help people receive this gift in the same way that if somebody said oh I really want to know Jesus as my savior you would probably say okay let's sit down and pray and you'd help them to receive him you you wouldn't you wouldn't say oh go home and maybe it'll happen and that's the problem with the gift of tongues is that um we can lay hold of it but most people aren't going to be bossy enough I I will be bossy enough because uh I've met so many people that are disappointed they've prayed and nothing happened but I I was learning with these home Church meetings that the Americans had that everybody who would like could receive this gift so when I when drug addicts started to knock on my door and say oh W Winson um got off drugs because he believed in Jesus and he lived in your home so I'll believe in Jesus and I'll live in your home because they thought it went together which I rather think it does um and so I I would say Okay close your eyes and let's meet Jesus and they would meet Jesus and then I'd say he'll give you a prayer language now begin to speak and they would all begin to speak in tongues it's very very easy um when somebody's meeting Jesus to receive this gift it's it's tougher if they've learned that some people do and some people don't or might it might happen five years later you know when you hear those stories is not helpful so they all prayed in tongues and then we learn how to do it um when they were coming off drugs we would sit with them um and I would pray in tongues and they would pray in tongues it's such a super gift um I mean I'm embarrassed because it's it's really a private gift it's for personal use mostly um apart from um public use every now and again but uh it's such a good good gift it's like babies cry when they're born and they know exactly what they want to say they they they want to say I'm hungry or I'm wet or pick me up um and it's just they haven't learned the language so tongues for a new believer who's very muddled in his head because he's a drug addict is such a super way of getting out what you don't know how to say but you want to say so I think that's why that when we pray PR with people and they pray in tongues after a few minutes they'll probably go to sleep and they don't have any withdrawal pains um we just learned to do this and it's we've done it with thousands and we're still doing it um uh that's um how we've had lots and lots of houses of 287 in all um which we borrowed or rented even brothel uh when we need to take one more in and we have no more space a a brothel is a hotel you can rent for the night um so in all we've we've um because people have joined me um prayed with thousands of people in over 200 houses and they will all um if they pray in tongues be able to get off drugs without medic ation and without pain um and isn't that wonderful I mean yeah fantastic expect to be like that wouldn't you I mean it sounds a whole lot like he speaks in a tongues edifies himself it kind of sounds like that so you know it just it makes me curious about you went there with no knowledge of drug addiction no knowledge of Rehabilitation and tactics for rehabilitation so you go there and this is a big problem in Hong Kong at the time and probably still is I don't know and there are rehab facilities and so I'm just imagining I I'm curious these facilities that have been honing their practices for years and every person or almost every person has massive withdrawal symptoms and it I mean it's basically living hell and many addicts go back because of that and then they look at you tongue speaking lady who comes in with no experience la la la la la speak in some language and they speak in some language and all these addicts are coming off what are the people saying like the rehab both Christian and non-Christian like what do they they just do they just dismiss it do they say you're making it up do they say wow I believe in Jesus now like what's happening over there I'm just curious how they're processing this only one Christian rehab um at that time um and there was a there was a government supported uh secular one on an island uh where they gave them sleeping pills and other other medication to help them off of course you've got to get off the other medication in the end so it it it it really doesn't help and the drug addicts aren't fooled um either because they understand that one one drug is replaced another um but we weren't I wasn't visible at this time um not at all visible I I I you know I'm I'm I'm on your radio show uh disappointingly visible I I I rather would not be visible but you know when when I was these people off drugs um the people in the churches didn't know no nobody knew this is just where the addicts knew and and the people that sleep in the streets and in the prisons they knew there wasn't there was hardly a street sleeper I could meet who hadn't heard oh if you believe in Jesus uh you can go and live at Jack's Place you know um and and and you can get off drugs um so they knew but but the rest of the church and the world didn't uh we we were mercifully hidden um and using I was using my own apartment and then and then a friend's apartment and then we rented another one and rented another one and so on so it it just it just grew and it was much much later that um I we became visible uh and that was when the government had lent us some tin Huts um and we began to um house some of the people who'd got off drugs in our other houses in all around Hong Kong a lot of them um so after a few months they would come to this place and um we worshipped on Sunday afternoons and uh then people from other churches started to come they w we didn't invite them they just came um and it was the only place in Hong Kong at that time this was in the uh 80s um and then the 90s it's the only place in Hong Kong where people openly used spiritual gifts and I'd met John Wimber and we and loved the worship yes so we did lots of worship and we prayed for people and nowhere in Hong Kong was doing that so then we became visible um and people appeared from churches all over the world and some of them were quite cross with me and said you know are you a fellowship or are you a church and do you call yourself a pastor you know and is it right for women you know and I sort of looked at them and said uh fellowship or chch well I'll be whichever one you'd like really the and then how did you get all these people and and I said well just sort of grew um they hadn't seen the the the the years where we were doing I was doing night duties you know every night and and sleeping in my day clothes um be and I had no helpers they didn't see the years when I was weeping and tired uh and where some of the people I'd met from John wimers came um and visited me and said Jackie why are you always crying um and let us take you and your staff off for a retreat and of course that was a stupid thing to say because I didn't have any staff um and I I couldn't leave the the people that I was living with I couldn't leave them um so it would have been better if those people had said Jackie we will learn Chinese we'll stay we'll look after your people so you can go and have a rest um but they they didn't understand uh that when when we give up our lives other people find life so I was crying because some of the people who'd come to the Lord and got off drugs had run away away um so I wasn't crying for myself so all those all those weeping times nobody saw um and I was crying about people who left and saying Lord how do we how do I do this better uh they they get off drugs okay but I want them to stay off drugs you know so I was learning all those hidden years nobody nobody understood the crying nobody understood the working out of something which you have to do if you're if you follow Jesus and you see a promise in the Bible and he says you know this will happen and you don't see it happen you have to work it through um however many years it takes so those years were hidden uh and people were were were angry with the fruit oh or jealous you know uh now you've got all these people why don't I take over your your church cuz you you know you shouldn't be leading it cuz you're a woman I mean really stupid stuff um and when we were visible um people wanted an explanation of how it had happened um and of course how it had happened was um really because because I didn't care um to be setting records um in 2 Corinthians 4 verse 12 it says death is at work in us but life is at work in you um and if you do give up your life for the Lost um it is death is at work in you so you are tired and you will cry but you're not crying for yourself I was not sorry for myself I wasn't discouraged I wasn't weary of doing good works I was just uh tired physically which is fine um it it's not fashionable for a Christian to be tired but it was really fine because Jesus was and um people want to skip that now they they want the gifts the spirit the power of the Holy Spirit oh somebody's life is instantly changed well they instantly got off drugs but that was the easy bit then they needed to grow up into a new life um so that they wouldn't go back to drugs um so now we've got fruit now we're visible if you like um and people were jealous of the numbers um but probably not jealous of doing night duties for a whole year of the labor that led up to it yeah absolutely you know we're definitely towards the end of our program and I don't want to take more of your time um I do though think that it would be it would be almost necessary because we have two different camps some that that assume an implied gospel presentation and others who are hearing the story about tongues and they're they're more familiar with the cation of side of things and and they're assuming there's no gospel presentation in this bit so so when when you meet these people they've heard about this Jackie you know okay I can go live in their house I can get off drugs she'll help me do that when does the the gospel presentation come into that process when they're clean before they're clean um and and maybe just share with us like how would that process go and and what gospel presentation were you sharing with them okay um I I learned that my gospel presentations um didn't work uh because they were what I call Greek they are four steps or uh three things beginning with why or the bridge of life or something which are really good uh but they're they're Greek they're logical to the person that wrote the book and the the people I was meeting whether they were drug addicts or uneducated people they're Hebrew they understand Stories the understand spiritual things by the way but they do not understand logical things and so when I had tried to present the gospel in a logical way um they were bored before we got to the good bit so I began to look at scripture and said Jesus how did you do it how was it that you could walk down a street and people would run after you and woman with an embarrassing disease would uh just want to touch your cloak I want that so that people recognize you not to talk about you but meet you so I'll I'll tell you how how we worked it out um give you an example uh about a street sleeper friend of mine um who uh I'd invited to tea and I was sitting by a a very fat uncle and the the street sleeper came in and said to the fat Uncle why are you so fat because they'd been in prison together and uh the fat one said it's Jesus and the thin one said oh I'll have him because he was a drug addict um and he was just the most awful looking man and I so I said okay if you'll have Jesus close your eyes and he'll come so I'm praying silently in the spirit um and I'm I'm saying Jesus he he wants to meet you because his old friend has been changed will you reveal yourself to him because that's what I want it's called the spirit of revelation will you reveal yourself to him not me not me explain about you and then say yes I want to meet Jesus so the other way around I call it Spirit to Spirit um so I prayed in the spirit for about a minute and then I could see him beginning to relax and smile and I said how do you feel and he said oh I feel uh very comfortable um and uh and I said well that's because Jesus is God's son uh will you believe he's Gods son yes and then I prayed in the spirit silently and he's beginning to relax and I said uh how do you feel now and he said I feel very loose in my chest and I said well that's because Jesus was down here 2,000 years ago' and he put all the things you feel bad about and all the bad things that have been done to you he put them upon himself will you believe he died for you yes he's never heard it before but he wants what this other guy has got and if it's Jesus died for you okay and then uh after another 30 seconds I said um will you believe that Jesus rose again from the dead and he said of course they always say of course I've just met him and he had just met him um I can't explain this and I said would you like to follow him he said silly question of course I I I've just met him I'd love to follow him and I said well tell him you'd like to give him all the things you've done wrong and you'd like a new life um and that's how you start so he did and that's took about two minutes so if you like I'm presenting uh an opportunity for Jesus to reveal himself through the spirit so Jesus is doing the talk um and I'm simply there watching the Wonder happening and this is mostly how we do it uh instead of telling somebody about Jesus and saying now would you like to receive him we we say close your eyes and you'll meet him and they do so it's it's mythologically you're contextualizing gospel message to your audience I talked to my friend will Hart um he does the stuff at Iris Global we were talking about um doing missions work in in Muslim countries and he says you know I don't always preach faith and repentance I don't always preach repentance in those countries and I think that my ears my my very evangelically trained Western ears and others were like H you know you don't preach repentance what does that mean you know and then we started asking the questions and we realized that well when a Muslim believes in Jesus they acknowledge they have to turn from Islam and they're going to get killed for it there is an implicit message of repentance in Laden within the call of Faith specifically to that Community because they they already understand the the culture Al mores of of you know uh you know Thou shalt not murder Thou shalt not commit adultery like they understand those context the faith message for them has an implicit message of repentance and what you're saying is that this message the true message you're not you're not not telling the message you're not not telling the message that that Jesus is the son of God that he died for your sins and he rose from the dead you're still giving them that message but you're contextualizing it to the this the spiritual Seeker that they are is that would that be a fair way of of you you know regurgitating back to you what you said to me um yeah you could put it that way um in in fact um this works with most people who are hungry um I call it Spirit to Spirit and and the chapter that explains this is 1 Corinthians 2 it's spiritual things and spiritual words um it not spiritual things in Greek words spiritual things in spiritual words words so and spiritual words are whatever is going to make Jesus alive to the person who's hearing um not the formula that I believe they need in order to be saved now the Mind comes later so when the scripture says you need to be able to explain why you believe the mind is involved later but um we begin with without directing the spirit to the mind we we ask the spirit to come and touch the spirit within them to make them alive and then we'll go on with the uh the repentance Etc um uh as we go uh and of of course that there has to be um a leaving behind they want to leave behind their drugs I mean that's where they start um yeah that's good okay I was looking up that quote uh by DL Moody uh this kind of reminds me of uh a lady criticizes DL Moody for his methods of evangelism Moody's reply was I agree with you I don't like the way I do it either tell me how you do it the lady replied I don't do it and Moody responded then I like my way of doing it better than your way of not doing it so uh I would say the results the results speak for themselves you're you've LED thousands of people to Christ off drugs transformed lives and um and so I anyway I seeing some people in the chat kind of talking about it so I I would say DL Moody quote applies to some of those folks anyway um Jackie what an honor to have you on the show thank you so much uh thank you so much for joining us live from Hong Kong what time do you have over there what time is it in Hong Kong uh 20 11 in the morning okay well we're 20 past 10 at night so thank you yeah uh Jackie it's it's inspiring to have you on the show I I'd like to just maybe ask um if we could just close out if you have any closing thoughts um maybe even specifically I know they're going to be missionaries that are listening there are going to be potential that are listening there going to be people who are listening who feel like they're Jackie 30 years ago invisible crying out to God and and struggling and getting no there G be people in all these different situations so um I I wonder if there's maybe like an uh an encouragement that you'd like to share with people as well as maybe even closing out the show by just praying over us all uh yeah I mean the the scripture I shared before from one Corinthians um always abound in in the work of the Lord because you know that whatever you do in his name is not in vain and then the the the Hebrews um uh sorry the Galatians scripture um let us not become weary in doing good uh I'd really like to say to people being worn out T physically tired is absolutely fine it's not in fashion now people think that um you've got to guard your borders which is really not scriptural you need them you need them uh in your your tent pegs enlarged most people don't need the grace of God um because they're only doing what they think they can manage um you get the grace of God when you're stretched and it's fine to to be tired but it's not fine to be weary in doing good because at the proper time you will reap a harvest if you will if we do not give up so uh if you're in the middle of the not seeing the Harvest it's I want to bless you um because the will be a harvest and other people may reap the Harvest that you sewing um and you may reap a harvest that other people have have sewn um but I bless you to to know that it's not about numbers it's not about how many or how much you've done it's just about being faithful um and if it's one if it's one man in the whole world that you are uh a appointed uh to meet and touch you've done well um one man is worth it one man is worth our life amen well Jackie I'm not going to lie I teared up a little bit uh several times in this interview um do could you just uh Josh I don't know if you have anything else that you want to say to close out the show um but I just thought we maybe kind of finish with uh with Jackie I mean we got the typical stuff guys subscribe to the channel share this around like comment cred make a donation all that's in the description blah blah blah blah blah blah but uh that's not tongues that's just blah blah blah anyway um but uh Jackie maybe you could close this out by just just praying for however the spirit leads you to to pray over uh whoever's listening dear father I ask you to send your spirit of Revelation that we may begin to comprehend the height and the the depth and the width of your extraordinary love I ask that this Spirit of Revelation be at work in all who are listening all who are watching that we might better and increasingly know your love and that it be your love your love for each person in the world whether they know you or not that is what we want to share and I as Lord that in the arguments of Doctrine in the arguments of theology that it will be your love that covers all um and that we understand from your word more and more about your heart but that we receive the spirit not just the word m and we I ask for everybody who's watching or listening that you would give them from your spirit whatever will help them to make you real to other people and I ask this in Jesus name amen amen Jackie thank you so much for taking the time to being with us uh for you today for us this evening uh and I just uh I look forward to just keeping in touch in any way that we can uh and then maybe uh maybe just getting you for podcast here in the future since you have an aversion to video work but I'll tell you that our audience is very built up very encouraged by the interview so I want to thank you very much for jumping on this program as Michael said there's all those links in the description you can follow all that stuff lots of interviews like this can be found on the channel so we'd encourage you guys to check some of that stuff out Jackie I'm going to hit the Finish button on this broadcast the screen's going to fade to black you would just stay on just for a second after we do uh that fade out uh then uh we we'll chat just to here a little bit but but guys thank you so much for tuning in make sure to subscribe like the video uh as we're coming out with lots of content just like this blessings